I wish the OE’s would have there 2-T’s have power-jet carbs, with TPS based timing maps and a det-counter / sensor under the plug (like 90’s Moto-GP 2-T bikes)….if it worked well for them, why re-invent the wheel to be worse than a carbureted bike with a bit more well vetted tech from the 90’s.
Hi there.... differences between HQV and KTM ( both fuel injected) makes no sense at all. Both machines has exactly the same ECU and mapping. Something else is making the difference...
@@jesusgarcia_pwc7457 Yes - every two stroke is a little different. But the ECU can't account for this....so they will run quite a bit different. Somewhat the point of the video.
I have a 19 husky 300 tpi with 300 hours and I’ve loved every minute on it, runs perfect all the time. I have a 23 125xc tbi with 10 hours and so far it runs just as good as the 300. My main issue with the carbs is the crappy gas we have nowadays, if my bike sat for more than a couple weeks I’d have to clean the pilot jet even if I drained the carb. Now I just hit the button and go. I could see serous racers preferring a carb but for a weekend warrior I’ve been very happy with the efi.
You are the first i've seen in YT that knows what is talking about, thank you. Your video about 2 strokes ignition timing is the only one that gets it right. I work making replacement CDI boxes for old japanesse 2 strokes and the curve is just like that, as you say, they know what they do...
@hpracedevelpment I have been testing and tuning a cracked stocker ECU for 2 months with great results. Raised the over rev limit l, Lowered the limits of the pressure table to account for “engine work”, lowered the pv opening (stock is 6k), corrected the upper rpm range of ignition timing and fuel delivery bc it’s rich and overtimed, (that’s why it falls flat up top), TPS values need to be set to .4000v, a BR9ECMVX plug, and the most important things are clearing the adapted values and tps circuit bc although it’s a non closed loop, the ignition and other tables shift to compensate for held value changes from the sensors and needs to be cleared. The baro sensor is in the rear of the airbox under the fender left side. There are so many diff things wrong with this set up it’s crazy…running T2 and an FMF pipeset and she runs like a modded carb bike now. CCPS needs to be sealed as well..I have a bunch of vids explain some stuff on my channel, revs to the moon now and hits hard. Hope all is well- J
@@HPRaceDevelopment ummm, not with WMR lol...they are not doing the in depth pv change, pressure table change, etc, they are leaning it out...I was just pointing out that in the video you mentioned not being able to change any of it and others have..successfully! All good-
@The Motocross Mod Channel Derrick doesn't like it when someone says something contrary to what he said. He also doesn't like other builders who are ahead of him in the game. Mirror mirror on the wall...who does the best mods of all? Mirror says, "Not you, Derrick." Thanks for sharing what you shared. You helping Derrick will go thankless as you already noticed. He most certainly wouldn't share the information with you that you shared with him. He likes to take what others have done or shown & claim it as his own. He's into grandstanding.
Love the videos. Seems that you have positive views on the STIC. It would be awesome if you could comment on Lectron, Smart and PWK carbs with STIC. Lastly, have you ever tried a external adjustable powerjet on a PWK? Thanks for the great content.
Great explanation, I've tried to explain efi to lots of people, most don't have the ability to understand. I'm waiting for the day 2 stroke efi becomes good enough /smart enough to self adjust for my 100 mile mountain single track rides where we have big temperature and elevation changes.
ima old dude from SoCal, riding dirt bikes since I've had to run alongside and jump on, because i was too short to touch the ground at 7 years old in 1976. dirt bike sure have come alone ways. the monoshock for rear travel was a brilliant change to the suspension. it might just be me, i feel there is more HP at top end speed with a carb over fuel injection, but I'm only using the seat of my pants has a measurement.. lol. thanks for the video, i know how long they take to film and edit.
I don't like the complexity of EFI but I have worked on and ridden BRP (ski-doo) two cycle products with EFI. They really seem to have it figured out ... I'm not sure about the other two cycle snowmobile manufacturers, but BRP has done amazing things with their engines over the past decade. I am a carburetor guy through and through, but BRP has completely changed my mind on this for snowmobiles. Their snowmobiles have better throttle response, more linear power delivery, better fuel efficiency and they just work. They also have an 850 Turbo, and while 180 hp isn't a lot for an 850 twin, riding it is impressive. They also manage to do this with a single exhaust in a very small package. This being said, they use direct injection and lots of sensors. They do have non direct injection models, they seem great but not outstanding. I'm considering putting EFI on one of my jetski engines as a fun project. Not because it's better or makes more power, but just for the experience of doing it.
Man, who knew two strokes were complicated 🤯 I guess they wanted to transition to four strokes as they thought they maxed out on 2 strokes yet the manufacturers still had trouble trying to improve it. It’s all coming together now, my uncle was telling me it too about the ignition and how hard it is to find power. That’s why altogether they switched on the new 4 stroke platform and made their tuning and mapping easier and of course no replacement for displacement. Thought the whole time it was an emissions cause. Now that I’m thinking about it we wouldn’t have had seen the speeds the 4 strokes gone if 2 strokes were still in. I had gotten a Husqvarna TC125 2023 yep bought into the hype. The only good thing is just electric start and of course the chassis and for me personally just having a main frame bike as I had ridden the kx100 for about 5 years. Thank you for this video Derek 🫡
Fully agree, efi is just stupid on a 2 stroker, they are supposed to be simple, loud and raw. Check the wiring harness of a YZ to the amount of electronics required to run the EFi bikes its just plain silly. YZ or Beta vs KTM group its not hard to guess which one will still be running fine in 10, 15, 20 years, check how many KDX models from the 90's are still ripping round!
It really sounds like they did the absolute bare minimum to get it working, a megasquirt is far more sophisticated. But it also sounds like a technology problem because we don’t have sensor tech that is quick enough to handle how a two stroke works. If you could adapt a Gm ls or lt ecu it might fare better, those ecus have a 5 axis strategy and references several live values to make decisions, it will estimate pooled fuel in the intake, the time it takes for fuel to hit the back of the intake valve, is torque based so that in itself can be useful.. lots to come I’m sure in the years ahead.
The ecu Power isnt the issue. These have highly advanced strategies with huge r&d money behind it 2 strokes are just extremely challenging vs a 4t Sleds are more simple they run essentially 1 rpm
As a Ktm tech, i feel that even their tech line dont really know whats going on. Constant changes on how to reprogram the tps and pv. The consumers still arent satisfied at the end of the day with the money they spent on the "latest technology". I am glad you get the opportunity to take their money to improve the flaws in the system. End of the day, carburetors and $20 worth of brass goes a long way. Thank you for the videos
The early reports of EFI 2 Strokes seemed like they might be a saviour of them, giving better performance, fuel economy and less emissions. Seems like it might have been a bit premature to say the least. I was surprised by the volume of smoke on startup, I thought that would be nearly eliminated by injection. I was really hoping we would see multi cylinder, larger capacity bikes on the road again but sadly that seems unlikely now.
Im not sure why people felt this way. Its not magic…engines require the right amount of fuel and ignition to function - you cant just alter that to meet emissions etc…
@@adriangalvez5104 No argument about emissions for competition bikes, really my comments were about hoping we could get road legal 2 strokes similiar to the Yamaha RD's (RZ's), RG's etc. of yesteryear. Here in Europe we managed to get them for a good few years after they were banned in the US and Canada. I grew up riding them and would love a modern version.
@@HPRaceDevelopment It was just what I was reading when KTM introduced it, no expert here. I obviously was taken in by the manufacturers hype. There was comments about not having to mix oil and fuel, stuff like that.
You may want to take another close look in your airbox, especially the left rearmost part - or just follow the wire that goes back there. And TPIs have had a separate baro sensor since 2019/2020.
Appreciate the videos, just providing my opinion on EFI 2 strokes. I think if you ride at the same elevation, and in the same temps all the time, then carbs are hard to beat, for their simplicity. However, I live in Texas near sea level and have been planning to take my carb'd 2 stroke to colorado and hit elevations 13,000'. I don't want to be stressing about air screw settings, needle clips, pilots, mains etc as I got up and down a mountain. I know Lectron and Smart carbs are getting popular, but they not "auto adjusting" and don't perform as well as a carb with Jets.
Lectron test and opinion? I have a 23 YZ 125 with the Berad freight train kit and have been impressed. Can't wait for Moab and altitude testing next season.
sounds like the way you explained the waves back into the cylinder changes with temperature in the pipe maybe a temperature sensor in the head pipe might be of benefit to efi.
yes - but Its gas temp along the pipe length not just egt exiting the cyl But some sleds with efi two strokes use egts as part of their strategies for success. They also run over a small rpm window making life much easier
I will love to see what KTM does in the future with TBI. Personally the 2023 125’s I’ve ridden feel like they have a bog on hard landings, out of corners sometimes, have a GNARLY lean chirp, and have inconsistent overrev. Very disappointing and frustrating because I love the new chassis, and hate the inconsistency. I will say though, unlike the 125’s, the ‘23 300sx and 250sx have great riding powerplants on the track. Unfortunate that KTM allows a bike that feels unfinished to be released.
I dont think people understand how hard efi is to do on a 2t. the 250 and 300 are very slow per cc vs a 125. The pipe doesnt do as much - so the tune up is easier to nail
@@HPRaceDevelopment Yep and as much as I like the 300sx, my ‘22 250sx with a built motor absolutely smokes it(I know, apples to oranges comparison, but still), and is a better understood platform. No real reason to buy a TBI bike yet 🤷♂️. Time to buy another 4 stroke I guess
@@denniswilder3014 O2 is relevant around peak torque - a sled stays around peak torque/hp all the time under essentially constant rpm and long load time A dirtbike is transient all the time and an 02 sensor doesnt read even remotely close to accurate in transient additionally its not even close to accurate on either side of peak torque. Raw air/fuel mix unburnt reads “lean” and 2 strokes are no where close to 100 percent trapping ratio of whats delivered with 20-60 percent of the air fuel you deliver going out the ex and not returning to be burnt. Around peak torque its “best” with the highest percentage being trapped EGT isnt bad - but its relative to the engine - and of no use in transients. what makes dirtbikes hard is transients. If someone built a good low loss cvt system - i bet someone could pretty fast on a dirtbike like that and efi tuning would become trivial.
I've done some in depth research in this subject. Direct injection with a fast egt prob and all the proper sensors is the best by far the under the curve potential is night and day as we have clearly seen with euro testing. But transfer injection or case injection is crap carbs better for simple but it's one of those you cant half do it things and it be amazing. You gotta go kinda nuts. This being said iv seen dyno testing where a bike was making damn near on the pipe tq well before that pipe came in and it rode much a 4stroke with low weight and crazy top end with a hard fall off at the top like most 2strokes. Blank check I expect DI otherwise carb
I do not understand how or why you would believe simply changes how the fuel is delivered will change the gas dynamics of a 2 stroke. DI will not widen out power - and yes plenty have done it. The only advantage is in emissions.
@@HPRaceDevelopment aprilia demonstrated very well although not for long how that can be done with di being able to run on a stratified charge that mixes air with the fuel in the injector then injects it into the combustion chamber. It measured in real time crank case pressure aswell as combustion chamber pressure. Being able to run and make power at 20:1afr below the pipe to make the egts skyrocket makes the wave faster thus making it work lower in the powerband to a big extent and also allowing it to run almost like a diesel at low rpm then fattening it up when the pipes loosing range to cool and slow the gases letting the pipe work more like a normal pipe along with some other even more sophisticated stuff that I dont understand well enough to describe here. This did require a whole lot of sensors and a very powerful Siemens ECU that's very pricey... just one of those combustion chamber sensors run like 1500 us at wholesale leading to this system being ludicrously expensive. However they did demonstrate it on the dyno and it did indeed make for a very 4stroke like powerband that kept going until out of range with very good emissions and I think something like between 40%-15% less fuel used to make the same power obviously depending on rpm. This system requires a crank driven air pump and fuel pump it's very complicated and very expensive so it didnt quite make it to production but it's been done. Farrari actually used this same tech in f1 for 4strokes that ran on the cusp of detonation and made some serious progress with it but only recently when the computers have been able to actually keep up in a multi cylinder setting. Mazda used a dumber version of this theory at a reduced level to be safer on their skyactiv engines of new. It's not practical to most but certainly can be done and with time it could become practical being as aprilia made it viable on engines as small as 50cc with very impressive number all around.
@@oliverscorsim Ive read the data. You want slower waves at low rpm. Not faster. Just because you can burn leaner mixtures doesnt mean egt goes up. Egt at a certain lean ratio decreases not increases. Improving the power width and “low” end on a “high end” style engine will never be solved by how you supply the fuel.
As with the 2024 huskvarna te 300, a 2023 gas gas ec 250 has noticeably more low end and top end power, stock 300, 250 has a coober ecu, medium compression head, stock pipe,
Well that's why I typed this message. My bike has noticeably more power than 2 brand new 2024 TE 300 huskvarnas, And definitely more low end. My tpi has only 100 and 6 hours on it. You guys can claim what you want but we just physically proved it yesterday. Buddies bought 2 brand new bikes.
@@donaldblank8873 Prove on my youtube channel…it will dyno worse and drag race worse we have extensively developed on tpi bikes and always made more power on relocation of injectors to tbi - and improved power character
It doesn’t add complexity to the owner. Never having to adjust the carb or power valve is awesome. Electric start too. I bought the 300sx and it's the best bike I've ever had. Sounds like the crank pressure sensor replaces the map sensor because of the frequency variables that can only be accounted for in the crank case. Overall this bike will probably have more power than a carb bike on average because you have to constantly stay on top of carb settings to make peak power.
while none of your statements ring true for me - maybe in the near future you might be right. That said the used bike market is going to take a nose dive replacing a fuel pump and injector is a lot more expensive than a carb clean. trouble shooting electronic issues is time consuming and thus pricey - and the stock 300 tbi is a turd vs the previous generation carb 250sx on my dyno
@HPRaceDevelopment In the last 15 years that I've been riding, neither I nor any of my friends have ever needed to replace a fuel pump or fuel injector on any of our bikes. And we ride year-round in the southwest. That kind of stuff usually lasts the life of the bike. The only electronics issue's I've heard of that's somewhat common is a bad stator coil. And if something does go bad on an efi bike it can show you the code so you know what to fix. It saves time. This is like the argument of Estart when ktm was the first to do it and everyone hated on it. Now everyone has it and loves it. I was the first of my friends to adopt that too.
@@HPRaceDevelopment As far as 2 stroke dirt bikes. Yes. Pushing EFI is probably dumb. Especially if they aren't even going to use a pipe temp sensor. Carb and be done with it. As far as Snowmobiles. They are at an extremely high state of development, the demands high and varied. Power, reliability, efficiency EPA emissions and noise regs are being balanced and delivered. Close to 180 HP(Dynotech Research) out of 850cc. Mountain sleds at full throttle constantly, wild elevation changes 155" tracks with 3" paddles, huge load. Same engine can also trail ride, or idle along with kids all day long. 16MPG if your a good boy. 18-20 on a 600. FACTORY turbocharged 2 strokes for trail and mountain sleds. None of this is possible without direct or semi direct EFI. Also not possible without $$$$$. So the answer is....As you said. Just use a carburetor for the bikes.
I doubt that.... GET ECU for the TPI bikes is worse then a good remap of the standard ECU. And since GET are also stuck with the OEM sensors there is not so much magic to do.
Hey man i got a question. I wanne buy a sx 125 2023 but i heard theres a lot of problema with it. And i dont know the difference between a tbi and a efi can you explain? And is it worth to buy 1 now without having issues?
Have you put in a BR9 plug in the bike and dyno? Runs way better with the BR9. You should contacts TPI tuning and see if he would be interested in sending you an ecu to dyno, way way better bike after the tune.
We have a video about this bike and an ECU. Dollar per dollar pretty hard to beat the ecu for the gain - with our maps of course. Changing parts on this bike without remapping is not going to work well.
I have had some smart people in Australia look at your Videos and are impressed with your understanding and bloody knowledge.If anyone can do it ,they believe you will. One to hold close to your chest, when you come up with a fix . Patent it . Who would ever think ? all this time and they sell it to loyal honest consumers. Terrible
Awesome, I’ve just seen your videos today. Well done, they look great with real info! I heard a whisper twisted may have unlocked the ecu on these new bikes. What’s your thoughts? Any room for improvement with current hardware or do you reckon they need more engine management components? Cheers. Paul
build a better carburetor reinvent the wheel think about a trumpet or trombone. What if you could change the throat pressure in the pipe not with an orifice but with a field ? i dont know im stupid
I remember my brother had a 2003 or 2004 can't quite remember KTM 250sx it was the fastest 250 of ever ridden I remember that 125ktm being quite fast as well back then people keep saying two-strokes I've got a lot better development technology wise, but I don't think they've come that far, four strokes have definitely got a lot lot more horsepower than old 4t but two-strokes haven't got any more horsepower than they ever had
I completely disagree. The MAP sensor is the crankcase sensor. The Electronic Power Valve gives the ability to maximize the powerband. All the negatives you pointed out have worked great in 4 Strokes. I think you'll come to really appreciate EFI in the future.
The electronic valve is fine - we use and work with on other projects but its no better than the previous valve design. Its used so ktm can track its position for the efi tune. The crankcase pressure sensor is similar but not exactly the same And the current efi 125 will get smoked by a previous gen carb bike. Until the hurdles that have yet to be solved regarding precise cycle to cycle fueling - it will never compete honda tried very hard in moto gp and never was as good as their carb effort Other markets have done decent but dont have the same demands mx does. We have been working hard on the efi ktms since the tpi came out and I feel have a far better handle on it than anyone in the mx world, but the bike gained weight, lost power, is less reliable, runs like garbage occasionally, and is far more expensive to sort out and maintain. I find zero positives to that when the carb version can and did work extremely well.
@@HPRaceDevelopment The powervalve is controlled by a servo motor, giving a tuner the ability to have full control of it and it frees up mechanical loss the old system relied on. The crankcase is the "intake manifold" per say, it's after the reed's and before the combustion chamber. The only place a map sensor can be placed. Honda found that the fuel injection made no difference in horsepower, but it gave the bike a more linear powerband. During that time in MotoGP corner speed wasn't important, the riders wanted the bike to feel more aggressive down the straights and even used the "big bang" timing sequence to further achieve that goal. I don't believe a carb bike would smoke the new efi, if you leave the bikes completely untouched from the factory and ride different environments. ie you have to change the jets to beat the efi bike. The efi bikes also have much more mid range power and i believe the top end is cut for emissions. VHM's 2020 and 2023 125 makes the same peak horsepower. Other markets are decent, but i probably dislike them just as much as you do. I agree that it's more expensive, harder to maintain, weighs more, and to get the bikes full potential it costs 1000's of dollars. There's a huge lack of support for the efi even from the tuners in the community, and the companies like GET and Vortex have yet to provide a product. Where i disagree is how effective the stock ecu calculates air fuel and the potential these bikes have to make more power than the previous generation. I think if we combine our knowledge we may be able to achieve just that.
@@Joe69 On my dyno no one has brought an EFI 125 or 250 that touches what we had for the carb bikes. We will be posting a video on an efi bike build up eventually - its shot and done but I need more track time to make sure it lives before I publish it. Behind closed doors honda rides hated the EFI. It was inconsistent and unpredictable. Mid corner it would spit you on your ass and honda worked very hard to solve the varied air flow values per cycle and never did solve it. The sensor technology exists to mimic what a carb sees but the computing HP to read and react is quite large on that. I think the crank case pressure sensor is a very smart way to know what's in the crank case each cycle - but on TBI injected bike you cant supply fuel for THAT cycle based off what you measure. The powervalve can be tuned via a tuner but so could the old one - and it was the best PV design within the industry. Correct - has mechanical losses. But so does the new EFI stator and electronic system. You can measure the losses on the dyno and it's quite large to power the full EFI system, fuel pump, and batter recharge/reg reg etc. People overlook that every watt you generate is more than a watt you loose to the tire. Time will tell - it's going to be "good" but IMHO not great for a long while. Thanks for the comments
@@HPRaceDevelopment very interesting. Stator definitely may rob more more power and the map sensor is definitely delayed a cycle. I’m going to contact you directly, I think we all want to see the best for these bikes.
Seems a lot more complicated than a carburetor. My choice is a smartcarb that eliminates the hassle of a normal carburetor when having to re-jet for temp and elevation.
Keihin runs better but less fuel efficient. That sums it up pretty much. I would only use lectron or smart for long distance rides. Otherwise properly tuned mikuni and keihin have more power everywhere it feels like. Especially right off throttle. Dyno might not show it but I went from a 300 with lectron, to a 250 with keihin + stic. 250 feels like it pulls harder off the bottom than the 300.
Can you tell my what sensor I will maby need for corect fuel air mixture calculating? I have APPS, TPS, Oxygen Sensor, CLT, AIT, MAP..... do I need something else?
@@HPRaceDevelopment Apps == accelerator pedal position sensor I have this sensor, because i use the drive by wire function. Clt == coolant temperature sensor Its the same as engine Temperatur sensor
KTM equipped there 2t because of emission standards for there Enduro Models in Europe. Yes they don’t need to reach these standards on there SX Models. But it’s cheaper to build just one Engine for both bikes.
@@HPRaceDevelopment yes they do. KTM primarily build Enduros for the European Market. These need to fulfill the emission standards. The SX Models are just converted Enduros.
@@martinmielke8897 the current enduros are still TPI.....I can assure you these models will NOT pass real emissions standards. Maybe europe has some exemptions.
@@HPRaceDevelopment what I’m trying to say is that the SX 125 comes with an EFI because it’s based on the European Enduro Models which need to pass emissions. Yes the SX don’t need to pas them and carb would do it. But it is cheaper to produce one engine with some changes. And yes the current Enduros are TPIs but they will update in June to TBI.
Forget about carbs. The future of 2 strokes depends on a word you have never heard. Emissions. EPA's are going to come down on 2 strokes because of Electric bikes. The only way to clean up 2 stokes is with EFI. The precision metering and fine atomization gives better vaporisation and cleaner burn. If you keep cuddling your carby, you wont find any 2 strokes on showroom floors. What are you gonna do then, buy an electric bike ? haha.
The irony of this comment is hilarious. Carbs atomize far better than ANY efi system. Well proven. Two strokes will never be good at emissions and produce good power and runnnability to MY standards of runnability. If you use it for recretional trails and avg 5-15 hp usage all the time - they could be fine only if DFI is used. But If you want the ability to make race bike power that carbs had, throttle response and power character that carb bikes had, sorry not happening. Lots of raw fuel is wasted on just about every single stroke of a two stroke and goes right out the ex port never to return along with air we wished we had trapped. Doesn't matter if you TPI, TBI, or carb this - until the exhaust port is closed - by nature of their design, you dont keep all the charge in side the cylinder. No efi system is currently doing a great job of cyclical variance of air flow and matching the desired fuel flow to this - currently the EFI systems are doing their "best" to produce "and average" that is the "target" over multiple cycles. This isn't too hard or challenging in low power, low rate of change usage - but as the engine power picks up and the influence of the pipe increases - so does the cycle to cycle variation.
@HP Race Development but I guess what you were saying is the two stroke is basically so simple chasing better performance rideability thru efi is futile. It's just never going to be what we expect it to be from efi.
i dont think the problem is efi, the problem is that ktm half assed it the same as they did the tpi. none of the parts in a ktm come close to the quality of any japanese bike. theyre just not as reliable. i have owned a brand new husky and after owning japanese bikes my whole life (second hand,new etc) i could clearly see the lack of quality in these bikes. they will work and do some things great but would i trust it to take it deep into the nush riding with only few tools? hmmmmmmmm not likely. carby i would but none of these bikes
They don't call me analog Eddie for nothing, you can make more HP from a carburetor and it's way easier to work on, less expensive to fix, but fuel injection on a 450 is key to making usable big power, compared to a carburetor on a 450 that makes 60 hp.
![ทางเดินชีวิต - ธีเดช ทองอภิชาติ x อ.ไข่ มาลีฮวนน่า [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1f3wcG16dd4/mqdefault.jpg)
what do you guys think about efi and two strokes
I wish the OE’s would have there 2-T’s have power-jet carbs, with TPS based timing maps and a det-counter / sensor under the plug (like 90’s Moto-GP 2-T bikes)….if it worked well for them, why re-invent the wheel to be worse than a carbureted bike with a bit more well vetted tech from the 90’s.
I think they should have stuck with the carb. Simple less weight no starter less wiring and no battery and makes way more power stock.
Hi there.... differences between HQV and KTM ( both fuel injected) makes no sense at all. Both machines has exactly the same ECU and mapping. Something else is making the difference...
@@jesusgarcia_pwc7457 Yes - every two stroke is a little different. But the ECU can't account for this....so they will run quite a bit different. Somewhat the point of the video.
@@jesusgarcia_pwc7457airbox
I have a 19 husky 300 tpi with 300 hours and I’ve loved every minute on it, runs perfect all the time. I have a 23 125xc tbi with 10 hours and so far it runs just as good as the 300. My main issue with the carbs is the crappy gas we have nowadays, if my bike sat for more than a couple weeks I’d have to clean the pilot jet even if I drained the carb. Now I just hit the button and go. I could see serous racers preferring a carb but for a weekend warrior I’ve been very happy with the efi.
most people are not - but also most people expected efi to make a 2t like a 4t
You are the first i've seen in YT that knows what is talking about, thank you. Your video about 2 strokes ignition timing is the only one that gets it right.
I work making replacement CDI boxes for old japanesse 2 strokes and the curve is just like that, as you say, they know what they do...
@hpracedevelpment I have been testing and tuning a cracked stocker ECU for 2 months with great results.
Raised the over rev limit l, Lowered the limits of the pressure table to account for “engine work”, lowered the pv opening (stock is 6k), corrected the upper rpm range of ignition timing and fuel delivery bc it’s rich and overtimed, (that’s why it falls flat up top), TPS values need to be set to .4000v, a BR9ECMVX plug, and the most important things are clearing the adapted values and tps circuit bc although it’s a non closed loop, the ignition and other tables shift to compensate for held value changes from the sensors and needs to be cleared.
The baro sensor is in the rear of the airbox under the fender left side.
There are so many diff things wrong with this set up it’s crazy…running T2 and an FMF pipeset and she runs like a modded carb bike now.
CCPS needs to be sealed as well..I have a bunch of vids explain some stuff on my channel, revs to the moon now and hits hard.
Hope all is well- J
I dont think the wmr dealer program suits us
everyone will be on the same set up - why mod at all.
@@HPRaceDevelopment ummm, not with WMR lol...they are not doing the in depth pv change, pressure table change, etc, they are leaning it out...I was just pointing out that in the video you mentioned not being able to change any of it and others have..successfully! All good-
@The Motocross Mod Channel
Derrick doesn't like it when someone says something contrary to what he said. He also doesn't like other builders who are ahead of him in the game.
Mirror mirror on the wall...who does the best mods of all?
Mirror says, "Not you, Derrick."
Thanks for sharing what you shared. You helping Derrick will go thankless as you already noticed. He most certainly wouldn't share the information with you that you shared with him. He likes to take what others have done or shown & claim it as his own. He's into grandstanding.
Been a little , great to see you again look forward to more of your work
Love the videos. Seems that you have positive views on the STIC. It would be awesome if you could comment on Lectron, Smart and PWK carbs with STIC. Lastly, have you ever tried a external adjustable powerjet on a PWK? Thanks for the great content.
Great explanation, I've tried to explain efi to lots of people, most don't have the ability to understand. I'm waiting for the day 2 stroke efi becomes good enough /smart enough to self adjust for my 100 mile mountain single track rides where we have big temperature and elevation changes.
The temp and altitude is corrected for
it just doesnt run awesome yet
ima old dude from SoCal, riding dirt bikes since I've had to run alongside and jump on, because i was too short to touch the ground at 7 years old in 1976. dirt bike sure have come alone ways. the monoshock for rear travel was a brilliant change to the suspension. it might just be me, i feel there is more HP at top end speed with a carb over fuel injection, but I'm only using the seat of my pants has a measurement.. lol. thanks for the video, i know how long they take to film and edit.
I don't like the complexity of EFI but I have worked on and ridden BRP (ski-doo) two cycle products with EFI. They really seem to have it figured out ... I'm not sure about the other two cycle snowmobile manufacturers, but BRP has done amazing things with their engines over the past decade.
I am a carburetor guy through and through, but BRP has completely changed my mind on this for snowmobiles. Their snowmobiles have better throttle response, more linear power delivery, better fuel efficiency and they just work. They also have an 850 Turbo, and while 180 hp isn't a lot for an 850 twin, riding it is impressive. They also manage to do this with a single exhaust in a very small package.
This being said, they use direct injection and lots of sensors. They do have non direct injection models, they seem great but not outstanding.
I'm considering putting EFI on one of my jetski engines as a fun project. Not because it's better or makes more power, but just for the experience of doing it.
And then they stopped production cause of emission limits
@@dimmacommunication ? They made a 2024 850 Turbo. Who stopped production ?
@@JoelArseneaultTH-camI've read Evinrude don't make outboards no more 😥
@@dimmacommunication Oh yes. They have discontinued some of their products. Who knows, maybe they will be back.
efi is easier on a sled or ski. but they have it solved far better than anyone else - with as modern of 2 stroke tech as ktm. Sleds are impressive
Man, who knew two strokes were complicated 🤯 I guess they wanted to transition to four strokes as they thought they maxed out on 2 strokes yet the manufacturers still had trouble trying to improve it.
It’s all coming together now, my uncle was telling me it too about the ignition and how hard it is to find power. That’s why altogether they switched on the new 4 stroke platform and made their tuning and mapping easier and of course no replacement for displacement.
Thought the whole time it was an emissions cause.
Now that I’m thinking about it we wouldn’t have had seen the speeds the 4 strokes gone if 2 strokes were still in.
I had gotten a Husqvarna TC125 2023 yep bought into the hype. The only good thing is just electric start and of course the chassis and for me personally just having a main frame bike as I had ridden the kx100 for about 5 years.
Thank you for this video Derek 🫡
Fully agree, efi is just stupid on a 2 stroker, they are supposed to be simple, loud and raw. Check the wiring harness of a YZ to the amount of electronics required to run the EFi bikes its just plain silly. YZ or Beta vs KTM group its not hard to guess which one will still be running fine in 10, 15, 20 years, check how many KDX models from the 90's are still ripping round!
It really sounds like they did the absolute bare minimum to get it working, a megasquirt is far more sophisticated. But it also sounds like a technology problem because we don’t have sensor tech that is quick enough to handle how a two stroke works. If you could adapt a Gm ls or lt ecu it might fare better, those ecus have a 5 axis strategy and references several live values to make decisions, it will estimate pooled fuel in the intake, the time it takes for fuel to hit the back of the intake valve, is torque based so that in itself can be useful.. lots to come I’m sure in the years ahead.
The ecu Power isnt the issue. These have highly advanced strategies with huge r&d money behind it
2 strokes are just extremely challenging vs a 4t
Sleds are more simple they run essentially 1 rpm
As a Ktm tech, i feel that even their tech line dont really know whats going on. Constant changes on how to reprogram the tps and pv. The consumers still arent satisfied at the end of the day with the money they spent on the "latest technology". I am glad you get the opportunity to take their money to improve the flaws in the system. End of the day, carburetors and $20 worth of brass goes a long way. Thank you for the videos
The early reports of EFI 2 Strokes seemed like they might be a saviour of them, giving better performance, fuel economy and less emissions. Seems like it might have been a bit premature to say the least. I was surprised by the volume of smoke on startup, I thought that would be nearly eliminated by injection. I was really hoping we would see multi cylinder, larger capacity bikes on the road again but sadly that seems unlikely now.
Nobody cares how good or bad that race bike is for emissions.
Im not sure why people felt this way. Its not magic…engines require the right amount of fuel and ignition to function - you cant just alter that to meet emissions etc…
@@adriangalvez5104 No argument about emissions for competition bikes, really my comments were about hoping we could get road legal 2 strokes similiar to the Yamaha RD's (RZ's), RG's etc. of yesteryear. Here in Europe we managed to get them for a good few years after they were banned in the US and Canada. I grew up riding them and would love a modern version.
@@HPRaceDevelopment It was just what I was reading when KTM introduced it, no expert here. I obviously was taken in by the manufacturers hype. There was comments about not having to mix oil and fuel, stuff like that.
The campfire where I burn my used 4 stroke oil puts of way more smoke than the 2 stroke..... Just saying.
Love your insight and honesty
You may want to take another close look in your airbox, especially the left rearmost part - or just follow the wire that goes back there. And TPIs have had a separate baro sensor since 2019/2020.
tpi but not tbi
@@HPRaceDevelopment I wrote "and" - again, look in your TBIs air box!
TPI bikes have baro sensors since 2020. But the TBi bikes only have one sensor and it is the CCP
@@mpetkov2158 there is nothing in the air box except rubber...
Appreciate the videos, just providing my opinion on EFI 2 strokes. I think if you ride at the same elevation, and in the same temps all the time, then carbs are hard to beat, for their simplicity. However, I live in Texas near sea level and have been planning to take my carb'd 2 stroke to colorado and hit elevations 13,000'. I don't want to be stressing about air screw settings, needle clips, pilots, mains etc as I got up and down a mountain. I know Lectron and Smart carbs are getting popular, but they not "auto adjusting" and don't perform as well as a carb with Jets.
finally a new video
great stuff as always Derrick
What map did you guys use for the dyno? I could've sworn the new TBI bikes had two sensors, CC and Baro...
Lectron test and opinion? I have a 23 YZ 125 with the Berad freight train kit and have been impressed. Can't wait for Moab and altitude testing next season.
If you like it - go for it. Our dyno doesn't seem to care for a lot of the products on the market
When it comes to my cars I’m a die hard EFI guy but I think it’s goofy to put EFI and E start on a little 125.
sounds like the way you explained the waves back into the cylinder changes with temperature in the pipe maybe a temperature sensor in the head pipe might be of benefit to efi.
yes - but Its gas temp along the pipe length not just egt exiting the cyl
But some sleds with efi two strokes use egts as part of their strategies for success. They also run over a small rpm window making life much easier
I will love to see what KTM does in the future with TBI. Personally the 2023 125’s I’ve ridden feel like they have a bog on hard landings, out of corners sometimes, have a GNARLY lean chirp, and have inconsistent overrev. Very disappointing and frustrating because I love the new chassis, and hate the inconsistency. I will say though, unlike the 125’s, the ‘23 300sx and 250sx have great riding powerplants on the track. Unfortunate that KTM allows a bike that feels unfinished to be released.
I dont think people understand how hard efi is to do on a 2t. the 250 and 300 are very slow per cc vs a 125. The pipe doesnt do as much - so the tune up is easier to nail
@@HPRaceDevelopment Yep and as much as I like the 300sx, my ‘22 250sx with a built motor absolutely smokes it(I know, apples to oranges comparison, but still), and is a better understood platform. No real reason to buy a TBI bike yet 🤷♂️. Time to buy another 4 stroke I guess
Talk to bills pipes to put a bung on a pipe and then talk to gett and have another input added.
Our test pipes have egt and o2
o2 is about worthless though
@@HPRaceDevelopment on my drag sleds we have o2 bungs on all 3 cyl. And have egt for our play back about 6 inches from the piston
@@denniswilder3014 O2 is relevant around peak torque - a sled stays around peak torque/hp all the time under essentially constant rpm and long load time
A dirtbike is transient all the time and an 02 sensor doesnt read even remotely close to accurate in transient
additionally its not even close to accurate on either side of peak torque. Raw air/fuel mix unburnt reads “lean” and 2 strokes are no where close to 100 percent trapping ratio of whats delivered with 20-60 percent of the air fuel you deliver going out the ex and not returning to be burnt. Around peak torque its “best” with the highest percentage being trapped
EGT isnt bad - but its relative to the engine - and of no use in transients. what makes dirtbikes hard is transients. If someone built a good low loss cvt system - i bet someone could pretty fast on a dirtbike like that and efi tuning would become trivial.
I've done some in depth research in this subject. Direct injection with a fast egt prob and all the proper sensors is the best by far the under the curve potential is night and day as we have clearly seen with euro testing. But transfer injection or case injection is crap carbs better for simple but it's one of those you cant half do it things and it be amazing. You gotta go kinda nuts. This being said iv seen dyno testing where a bike was making damn near on the pipe tq well before that pipe came in and it rode much a 4stroke with low weight and crazy top end with a hard fall off at the top like most 2strokes. Blank check I expect DI otherwise carb
I do not understand how or why you would believe simply changes how the fuel is delivered will change the gas dynamics of a 2 stroke. DI will not widen out power - and yes plenty have done it.
The only advantage is in emissions.
@@HPRaceDevelopment aprilia demonstrated very well although not for long how that can be done with di being able to run on a stratified charge that mixes air with the fuel in the injector then injects it into the combustion chamber. It measured in real time crank case pressure aswell as combustion chamber pressure. Being able to run and make power at 20:1afr below the pipe to make the egts skyrocket makes the wave faster thus making it work lower in the powerband to a big extent and also allowing it to run almost like a diesel at low rpm then fattening it up when the pipes loosing range to cool and slow the gases letting the pipe work more like a normal pipe along with some other even more sophisticated stuff that I dont understand well enough to describe here. This did require a whole lot of sensors and a very powerful Siemens ECU that's very pricey... just one of those combustion chamber sensors run like 1500 us at wholesale leading to this system being ludicrously expensive. However they did demonstrate it on the dyno and it did indeed make for a very 4stroke like powerband that kept going until out of range with very good emissions and I think something like between 40%-15% less fuel used to make the same power obviously depending on rpm. This system requires a crank driven air pump and fuel pump it's very complicated and very expensive so it didnt quite make it to production but it's been done. Farrari actually used this same tech in f1 for 4strokes that ran on the cusp of detonation and made some serious progress with it but only recently when the computers have been able to actually keep up in a multi cylinder setting. Mazda used a dumber version of this theory at a reduced level to be safer on their skyactiv engines of new. It's not practical to most but certainly can be done and with time it could become practical being as aprilia made it viable on engines as small as 50cc with very impressive number all around.
@@HPRaceDevelopment later I'll find some papers on the subject and post them here
@@oliverscorsim Ive read the data. You want slower waves at low rpm. Not faster.
Just because you can burn leaner mixtures doesnt mean egt goes up. Egt at a certain lean ratio decreases not increases. Improving the power width and “low” end on a “high end” style engine will never be solved by how you supply the fuel.
As with the 2024 huskvarna te 300, a 2023 gas gas ec 250 has noticeably more low end and top end power, stock 300, 250 has a coober ecu, medium compression head, stock pipe,
on our dyno a tpi built out by tsp is 7-8 hp less than a stock tbi
Well that's why I typed this message. My bike has noticeably more power than 2 brand new 2024 TE 300 huskvarnas, And definitely more low end. My tpi has only 100 and 6 hours on it. You guys can claim what you want but we just physically proved it yesterday. Buddies bought 2 brand new bikes.
@@donaldblank8873 Prove on my youtube channel…it will dyno worse and drag race worse
we have extensively developed on tpi bikes and always made more power on relocation of injectors to tbi - and improved power character
It doesn’t add complexity to the owner. Never having to adjust the carb or power valve is awesome. Electric start too. I bought the 300sx and it's the best bike I've ever had. Sounds like the crank pressure sensor replaces the map sensor because of the frequency variables that can only be accounted for in the crank case. Overall this bike will probably have more power than a carb bike on average because you have to constantly stay on top of carb settings to make peak power.
while none of your statements ring true for me - maybe in the near future you might be right. That said the used bike market is going to take a nose dive replacing a fuel pump and injector is a lot more expensive than a carb clean. trouble shooting electronic issues is time consuming and thus pricey - and the stock 300 tbi is a turd vs the previous generation carb 250sx on my dyno
@HPRaceDevelopment In the last 15 years that I've been riding, neither I nor any of my friends have ever needed to replace a fuel pump or fuel injector on any of our bikes. And we ride year-round in the southwest. That kind of stuff usually lasts the life of the bike. The only electronics issue's I've heard of that's somewhat common is a bad stator coil. And if something does go bad on an efi bike it can show you the code so you know what to fix. It saves time. This is like the argument of Estart when ktm was the first to do it and everyone hated on it. Now everyone has it and loves it. I was the first of my friends to adopt that too.
EFI on 2 strokes is why we still have 2 stroke snowmobiles. It's good.
Try sell that on the moto community who hate it...
It has a long way to go for MX and offroad usage - far harder demands on EFI than sleds
@@HPRaceDevelopment As far as 2 stroke dirt bikes. Yes. Pushing EFI is probably dumb. Especially if they aren't even going to use a pipe temp sensor. Carb and be done with it. As far as Snowmobiles. They are at an extremely high state of development, the demands high and varied. Power, reliability, efficiency EPA emissions and noise regs are being balanced and delivered. Close to 180 HP(Dynotech Research) out of 850cc. Mountain sleds at full throttle constantly, wild elevation changes 155" tracks with 3" paddles, huge load. Same engine can also trail ride, or idle along with kids all day long. 16MPG if your a good boy. 18-20 on a 600. FACTORY turbocharged 2 strokes for trail and mountain sleds. None of this is possible without direct or semi direct EFI. Also not possible without $$$$$. So the answer is....As you said. Just use a carburetor for the bikes.
I think once the GET cdi comes out it will be a little better
I doubt that.... GET ECU for the TPI bikes is worse then a good remap of the standard ECU. And since GET are also stuck with the OEM sensors there is not so much magic to do.
Shur luv my 2023 Beta 300RR carby bike.
Hey man i got a question. I wanne buy a sx 125 2023 but i heard theres a lot of problema with it. And i dont know the difference between a tbi and a efi can you explain? And is it worth to buy 1 now without having issues?
Have you put in a BR9 plug in the bike and dyno? Runs way better with the BR9. You should contacts TPI tuning and see if he would be interested in sending you an ecu to dyno, way way better bike after the tune.
hotter range plugs dont do lot for wot runs
@@HPRaceDevelopment wouldn’t it help to burn at lower rpm, plus it gets rid of any sputter?
@@ryanboening Not at WOT. A hot vs cold plug has more to do with plug fouling than power.
@@HPRaceDevelopment yes. But the bike is way too rich for a br10, it fouls out way too easily.
@@ryanboening
Derrick doesn't like to hear friendly advice. He wants to be the smartest guy in the room. That's why his room is always empty. 😉
HI! Planning to buy a HGS exhaust on my 23 tc125. The question is that do I have to do anything to the bike, like remap the bike or something? Thanks!
We have a video about this bike and an ECU. Dollar per dollar pretty hard to beat the ecu for the gain - with our maps of course. Changing parts on this bike without remapping is not going to work well.
I'm curious how it would do in the green map with u4.4 or mxr02. Take advantage of it being rich .
Not good.
I have had some smart people in Australia look at your Videos and are impressed with your understanding and bloody knowledge.If anyone can do it ,they believe you will. One to hold close to your chest, when you come up with a fix . Patent it . Who would ever think ? all this time and they sell it to loyal honest consumers. Terrible
If it runs %95 as good without having to jet it j guess id be happy
Yeah but just how granular is the mapping differences for climate changes.
@@bloomerb4162 no idea man, I'm borrowing a 19 150. My 23 350 blew up after 48 minutes. Waiting on KTM corporate. They fuckin up worldwide
@@Runk3lsmcdougal I debated whether to get the efi or 22 model.
Went with 22 tc250 and 22 150sx both with keihin + stic.
@@bloomerb4162 I think ya made the right move. I'm sure they'll get them ironed out but avoid this first 2 years id say
Hey what do you reckon about using a little more oil. Say 38/1 or 36/1 to lean out the air/fuel ratio? My plug is always black.
Plenty of people been doing that
Awesome, I’ve just seen your videos today. Well done, they look great with real info! I heard a whisper twisted may have unlocked the ecu on these new bikes. What’s your thoughts? Any room for improvement with current hardware or do you reckon they need more engine management components? Cheers. Paul
build a better carburetor reinvent the wheel think about a trumpet or trombone. What if you could change the throat pressure in the pipe not with an orifice but with a field ? i dont know im stupid
I remember my brother had a 2003 or 2004 can't quite remember KTM 250sx it was the fastest 250 of ever ridden I remember that 125ktm being quite fast as well back then people keep saying two-strokes I've got a lot better development technology wise, but I don't think they've come that far, four strokes have definitely got a lot lot more horsepower than old 4t but two-strokes haven't got any more horsepower than they ever had
latest carb ktm 250 far stronger than previous generations on our dyno
I completely disagree. The MAP sensor is the crankcase sensor. The Electronic Power Valve gives the ability to maximize the powerband. All the negatives you pointed out have worked great in 4 Strokes. I think you'll come to really appreciate EFI in the future.
The electronic valve is fine - we use and work with on other projects but its no better than the previous valve design. Its used so ktm can track its position for the efi tune.
The crankcase pressure sensor is similar but not exactly the same
And the current efi 125 will get smoked by a previous gen carb bike. Until the hurdles that have yet to be solved regarding precise cycle to cycle fueling - it will never compete
honda tried very hard in moto gp and never was as good as their carb effort
Other markets have done decent but dont have the same demands mx does. We have been working hard on the efi ktms since the tpi came out and I feel have a far better handle on it than anyone in the mx world, but the bike gained weight, lost power, is less reliable, runs like garbage occasionally, and is far more expensive to sort out and maintain. I find zero positives to that when the carb version can and did work extremely well.
@@HPRaceDevelopment The powervalve is controlled by a servo motor, giving a tuner the ability to have full control of it and it frees up mechanical loss the old system relied on.
The crankcase is the "intake manifold" per say, it's after the reed's and before the combustion chamber. The only place a map sensor can be placed.
Honda found that the fuel injection made no difference in horsepower, but it gave the bike a more linear powerband. During that time in MotoGP corner speed wasn't important, the riders wanted the bike to feel more aggressive down the straights and even used the "big bang" timing sequence to further achieve that goal.
I don't believe a carb bike would smoke the new efi, if you leave the bikes completely untouched from the factory and ride different environments. ie you have to change the jets to beat the efi bike. The efi bikes also have much more mid range power and i believe the top end is cut for emissions. VHM's 2020 and 2023 125 makes the same peak horsepower.
Other markets are decent, but i probably dislike them just as much as you do. I agree that it's more expensive, harder to maintain, weighs more, and to get the bikes full potential it costs 1000's of dollars. There's a huge lack of support for the efi even from the tuners in the community, and the companies like GET and Vortex have yet to provide a product. Where i disagree is how effective the stock ecu calculates air fuel and the potential these bikes have to make more power than the previous generation.
I think if we combine our knowledge we may be able to achieve just that.
@@Joe69 On my dyno no one has brought an EFI 125 or 250 that touches what we had for the carb bikes. We will be posting a video on an efi bike build up eventually - its shot and done but I need more track time to make sure it lives before I publish it. Behind closed doors honda rides hated the EFI. It was inconsistent and unpredictable. Mid corner it would spit you on your ass and honda worked very hard to solve the varied air flow values per cycle and never did solve it. The sensor technology exists to mimic what a carb sees but the computing HP to read and react is quite large on that. I think the crank case pressure sensor is a very smart way to know what's in the crank case each cycle - but on TBI injected bike you cant supply fuel for THAT cycle based off what you measure. The powervalve can be tuned via a tuner but so could the old one - and it was the best PV design within the industry. Correct - has mechanical losses. But so does the new EFI stator and electronic system. You can measure the losses on the dyno and it's quite large to power the full EFI system, fuel pump, and batter recharge/reg reg etc. People overlook that every watt you generate is more than a watt you loose to the tire.
Time will tell - it's going to be "good" but IMHO not great for a long while. Thanks for the comments
@@HPRaceDevelopment very interesting. Stator definitely may rob more more power and the map sensor is definitely delayed a cycle. I’m going to contact you directly, I think we all want to see the best for these bikes.
Isn't 32 hp like 2006 ktm levels ?
Does EFI on a 2 stroke get better fuel economy and if so how much?
Not that we have seen.
Seems a lot more complicated than a carburetor. My choice is a smartcarb that eliminates the hassle of a normal carburetor when having to re-jet for temp and elevation.
sorry but a sc doesnt correct for temp
The "Smart Carb" loses power vs the Keihin & Mikuni as well.
@@HPRaceDevelopment Does the STIC block require more or less jetting for temp and elevation changes? Any idea what STIC is supposedly debuting today?
maybe you could do a Lectron vs keihin dyno comparison?
and smartcarb. both lectron and smartcarb make power and fuel economy improvement claims.
Lectron Pro
we have. i just choose not to publish it
Keihin runs better but less fuel efficient. That sums it up pretty much. I would only use lectron or smart for long distance rides.
Otherwise properly tuned mikuni and keihin have more power everywhere it feels like. Especially right off throttle. Dyno might not show it but I went from a 300 with lectron, to a 250 with keihin + stic. 250 feels like it pulls harder off the bottom than the 300.
@@HPRaceDevelopment Publish it! Huge fan of your channel. Most transparent out there!
Keep it simple
Stupid 😂
Can you tell my what sensor I will maby need for corect fuel air mixture calculating? I have APPS, TPS, Oxygen Sensor, CLT, AIT, MAP..... do I need something else?
Not familiar with apps or clt
@@HPRaceDevelopment
Apps == accelerator pedal position sensor
I have this sensor, because i use the drive by wire function.
Clt == coolant temperature sensor
Its the same as engine Temperatur sensor
@@z-tech-extrem You should have enough to make it work, we are talking two stroke right
@@HPRaceDevelopment yeah right!
KTM had to go EFI for euro emissions and volume of sales. If they hadn’t developed efi, we likely wouldn’t have 2 strokes anymore.
The emissions output is no better
Thats my question of the move
KTM equipped there 2t because of emission standards for there Enduro Models in Europe. Yes they don’t need to reach these standards on there SX Models. But it’s cheaper to build just one Engine for both bikes.
its doubtful this bike or any of their tbi are meating emmissions
@@HPRaceDevelopment yes they do. KTM primarily build Enduros for the European Market. These need to fulfill the emission standards. The SX Models are just converted Enduros.
@@martinmielke8897 the current enduros are still TPI.....I can assure you these models will NOT pass real emissions standards. Maybe europe has some exemptions.
@@HPRaceDevelopment what I’m trying to say is that the SX 125 comes with an EFI because it’s based on the European Enduro Models which need to pass emissions. Yes the SX don’t need to pas them and carb would do it. But it is cheaper to produce one engine with some changes. And yes the current Enduros are TPIs but they will update in June to TBI.
Forget about carbs. The future of 2 strokes depends on a word you have never heard. Emissions. EPA's are going to come down on 2 strokes because of Electric bikes.
The only way to clean up 2 stokes is with EFI. The precision metering and fine atomization gives better vaporisation and cleaner burn.
If you keep cuddling your carby, you wont find any 2 strokes on showroom floors. What are you gonna do then, buy an electric bike ? haha.
The irony of this comment is hilarious. Carbs atomize far better than ANY efi system. Well proven. Two strokes will never be good at emissions and produce good power and runnnability to MY standards of runnability. If you use it for recretional trails and avg 5-15 hp usage all the time - they could be fine only if DFI is used. But If you want the ability to make race bike power that carbs had, throttle response and power character that carb bikes had, sorry not happening. Lots of raw fuel is wasted on just about every single stroke of a two stroke and goes right out the ex port never to return along with air we wished we had trapped. Doesn't matter if you TPI, TBI, or carb this - until the exhaust port is closed - by nature of their design, you dont keep all the charge in side the cylinder.
No efi system is currently doing a great job of cyclical variance of air flow and matching the desired fuel flow to this - currently the EFI systems are doing their "best" to produce "and average" that is the "target" over multiple cycles.
This isn't too hard or challenging in low power, low rate of change usage - but as the engine power picks up and the influence of the pipe increases - so does the cycle to cycle variation.
Why not watercooled exhaust pipe.
These pipes need heat to work
@@paulmryglod4802 Ok
Too complicated, too expensive, too heavy, that is what I think, but I am 69 and I love my '94 CR125 with the stock PJ Keihin.
I'm guessing emissions is the reason they went efi
I dunno
this sx model is worse than a good carb bike on emissions
So it needs pipe temp sensor and O2.
no - thats too slow to be useful
@@HPRaceDevelopment what then, some kind of pressure wave sensor in pipe?
I'm sure they have some good default values that take the pipe into account.
@HP Race Development but I guess what you were saying is the two stroke is basically so simple chasing better performance rideability thru efi is futile.
It's just never going to be what we expect it to be from efi.
I’d love to know the REAL reason ktm abandoned TPI for TBI. 👀 all the Tpi owners won’t want to know I’m sure 😢
Is two stroke efi more about emissions than performance 🤔 😳
* that is the world we now live in 😢
Telling like it is, dont try to improve my peanut butter sandwich
ha well said
i dont think the problem is efi, the problem is that ktm half assed it the same as they did the tpi. none of the parts in a ktm come close to the quality of any japanese bike. theyre just not as reliable. i have owned a brand new husky and after owning japanese bikes my whole life (second hand,new etc) i could clearly see the lack of quality in these bikes. they will work and do some things great but would i trust it to take it deep into the nush riding with only few tools? hmmmmmmmm not likely. carby i would but none of these bikes
even just the design and location of everything around the throttle body looks horrible
All the extra tech and less horsepower haha
Hp is just numbers. It rides better than pre 2023.
Every body was is wrong about the tbi - tpi is much better.
yeah tpi sucks - i have to say i disagree with your comment
efi on twostroke yes, but never in life in a ktm!
I have a 23 125 sx low key disappointed
It will improve - we've already gotten them very solid...just not AS good as our best carb bikes.
th-cam.com/video/texoPIeW3Rg/w-d-xo.html
Spend you money wisely…he also says a ktm 500 makes 70 hp…
Light from the window ruin your video
ill ask the sun to move!
Twostroke is like woman.
125s can pump out 45hp with a carb.fuel injection is for diesels and dummies.
bring a 45 hp 125 to my dyno in an mx bike
@HPRaceDevelopment I didn't say mx bike.mabe you don't dyno kart engines.
They don't call me analog Eddie for nothing, you can make more HP from a carburetor and it's way easier to work on, less expensive to fix, but fuel injection on a 450 is key to making usable big power, compared to a carburetor on a 450 that makes 60 hp.
I think on a four stroke we make more on efi now. It has opened up tremendous avenues not previously possible.