What You Need To Know About Pull Ups, Rows, And Shoulder Health
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
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In this video, I talk about pull ups, rows, and shoulder health. A lot of people are under the impression that we have to balance movement "planes", but this does not take into consideration the differences in musculature, function, and structure from front to back. While rows can be very useful for strengthening the external rotators (like the infraspinatus and the posterior deltoid), the pull up also strengthens these muscle. Moreover, the pull up has some unique advantages for shoulder health, including the ROM which can actually stretch and lengthen the lats. This is important because tight lats are a risk factor for shoulder impingement and shoulder dysfunction. Rows do not lead to lengthened lats because they fail to stretch the lats in the overhead position. Pull ups also prioritize development of the lower trapezius, and weakness in the lower traps is another risk factor for shoulder pathology. A final consideration is that the the bottom of the pull up can actually remodel the shoulder joint, making it healthier and more resilient long term. NOTE: This is not to say rows are worthless! They are still a valuable exercise, but they are not magic for shoulder health. Properly performed pull ups with a dead hang, and good scapular mechanics are also very good for maintaining shoulder health and even have some unique advantages over the row for this purpose. As always, if you are dealing with a shoulder injury, go get it checked out by a good sports doc or a qualified PT.
Check out these links for more info...
www.t-nation.c...
suppversity.bl...
pubmed.ncbi.nl...
pubmed.ncbi.nl...
www.ncbi.nlm.n...
onlinelibrary....
www.ncbi.nlm.n...
www.acefitness...
www.kirschshou...
There’s a fundamental issue with your logic in regards to pull ups and shoulder health imo
1) for your shoulders to be remodelled and strengthened at the joint you need sufficient time under gravity for this to occur. Pull ups will not do this unless you are passively deadhanging for 10-30 seconds at the bottom of every rep (which lets be honestly 99% of people aren’t doing)
2. Even If you were to do the above, it only applies to pronated grip… chin ups and neutral grip will not stretch the CA arch as in these positions the arm cannot be raised high enough to apply a bending force to the CA Arch
3. You mentioned that lat tightness and interior rotation presents a risk factor for shoulder impingement… yes, hence why biasing pull ups over rows isn’t good… because pull-ups literally rotate the shoulders in this way which is why the rate of injury on pull ups (rotator cuff, golf/tennis elbow,
4. Pull ups may be better for lat strength and mobility but inverted rows have it beat in pretty much all other back musculature activation (middle+lower traps, infraspinatus etc) and that’s using the basic inverted row, theoretically Feet elevated would score even higher.
It’s the thinking in this video which explains why most old calisthenics athletes/trainers end up with fucked shoulders and elbows… Sven from Calisthenics Movements literally only did inverted rows for 2 months and not only fixed old injuries but increase his pull up numbers… yet people think the only thing rows are good for is scapular retraction 😩
Dude! This is awesome critique. Much appreciated! I don't necessarily disagree with much of this, but I would say the following...
1. I think for paused, dead stop pull ups, you can accumulate a pretty significant amount of time in the dead hang position, especially as you get stronger. It's not tough to add a 2 second pause at the bottom, and over the course of 50 or so reps, that's getting close to 2 minutes in a dead hang position. I think over years and years, this would likely be sufficient for remodeling, though that is speculation on my part. Kirsch showed remodeling at 10 minutes per day, but that doesn't mean that a 10 minute threshold would need to be crossed in order to remodel the joint over the long run. For a young person starting out, who hasn't had years of neglecting this position, I would imagine the need for high doses of dead hanging would be unnecessary if a modest amount was incorporated frequently. For someone who has remodeled the shoulder with the dead hang, I think dead hang pull ups would be sufficient stimulus to maintain the shoulder joint. Kirsch even recommends moving to pull ups after dead hanging for a while, though it is unclear if he recommends continued dead hanging as a separate intervention.
2. Fair enough, though I think this would apply more to a supinated grip than a neutral grip, which doesn't require as much external rotation, but it's probably considerably variable across the population. But either way, rows don't do this either.
3. I would say the rate of injury on pull ups is higher because of increased load, lack of control, and an external focus of just getting the chin over the bar at all costs. Yes it loads the rotator cuff, but it's a movement that is often performed with poor scapular mechanics, which does potentially increase injury risk in the rotator cuff. I think most people just aren't strong enough to do pull ups with good mechanics, EVEN in research, and yes, rows are the PERFECT way to develop pulling strength and pulling mechanics to prep for pull ups. As for pull ups putting you into more internal rotation, well it depends on how you perform them. Different grips will stress different parts of shoulder connective tissue, so they are not universally risky onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/sms.13780
In terms of lat tightness, I fail to see how moving the lat through the shortened position only, as in a row, would be more beneficial for a tight lat that training it in a more lengthened position as in a pull up. Feel free to expand on that if I'm missing your point.
4. Not necessarily true; it depends on the study. LOTS of things affect EMG output, such as electrode placement, load, technique, subjects, etc. It's going to be highly variable depending on the population being studied. t-nation.com/t/inside-the-muscles-best-back-and-biceps-exercises/284621
There is going to be a lot of individual variability, but pull ups do move more musculature through more ROM. As for rows only being good for scap retraction, well no... but they do that the best. There is a big difference there. If I want general pulling strength, I want a movement that moves through a large ROM, through a more lengthen position, with a more favorable strength curve, the ability to load it easily, and the ability to train it across a broad rep range. Pull ups and chin ups do that better than rows, with the exception of the scap retractors that get a great stretch at the bottom of the row. This doesnt mean rows are bad, but for this application, I don't think they are as good. What I think they absolutely rock at is building scap retraction strength.
Yeah anecdotes are super important but they go both ways. I often use rows to build clients up to pull ups. It's my goto method and I even have a program built around the row. I do a bunch of rows myself as a way to build my chest to bar, scap retracted, paused rep pull up. These take a TON of scrap retraction strength, more than rows, and rows have been super helpful in building it. BUT... I've also gone years at a time without doing any rows. I have been training pull ups since I was a kid, and I didn't actually start doing rows until I was in my mid to late 20's, and I was totally fine with 0 shoulder issues, and surprisingly strong at rows when I started doing them. I know a ton of people who have done this as well, and I even know clients who find rows irritating to the shoulders. My critique wasn't to tell people not to do rows, or that rows are worthless... I get that when people love an exercise, they don't like it when someone critiques it, but my critique was simply saying they aren't necessary for healthy shoulders. Probably millions of people around the world don't do rows and have healthy shoulders. A lot of those people probably do some pull ups and are totally fine. I don't believe rows are necessary for shoulder health... and the reason I don't believe that is that there are, and have been, a lot of people who don't have shoulder issues who don't do rows. This does not mean that some people may not find them beneficial, because there are tons of people who do, but when someone tells me that I HAVE to row or my shoulders are going to be destroyed, I do not find this compelling at all.
I hope that makes sense.
Thank you for the great feedback!
@@Kboges I appreciate the response and reaction to my comment, I didn’t intent for it to come across as harsh as it may have seemed and I apologies if it came across so. I’ll address each point 🙂
1. That’s a good point but unfortunately unproven per Kirschs study there are other studies that may support this theory. Wolffs Law seems to be applicable for even a few seconds of bone loading 👍
Of course this is assuming you can do a good form pull-up, which I think most people lack the pre-requisite shoulder and scapular stability to actually do (as modern life exacerbates this problem even amongst younger populations). Many Gymnastics coaches have men doing 3 sets of 10 feet elevated rows before even moving onto pull ups for this very reason.
2. I don’t think population variance is a factor, Kirsch specifically says in his book that pronated grip is the only grip in which anatomically speaking the CA Arch has enough ROM to be able to be remodelled. I understand rows don’t do this, my point is that only one pull up grip actually does this too so it can’t be generalised across all pull-ups, as chins and the ring pull-ups in your video wouldn’t have this effect on the shoulders per Kirsch’s findings (page 26 specifically states that palms forward is the only grip that this works for)
3. Can’t really debate any of this, you’re right and I completely agree with all of it. My initial point was about the internal rotation in regards to pull ups but as you said this isn’t always the case (chin ups are actually external rotation to prove your point 👍).
4. I think this part is where we disagree the most. You can’t posit the claim that “pull ups and rows work the same back musculature but emphasis lower traps more proportionally than middle” yet paradoxically say that’s it’s subject to individual variability and emg factors… you are the one that made the claim, presumably with the same info methods that I’ve used to counter it.
Rows and pull ups are more similar than different but they’re are “general” differences, the lats are hit harder in pull-ups because of the ROM, greater % of bodyweight moved etc but conversely since the trap muscles go down to the base of your rib cage pulling in the horizontal angle hits these a bit more on average (and rear delts)… does this mean you can’t build traps and rear delts with pull-ups if you incur enough volume? Of course not, but likewise you can build lats if you used high volume rowing (see many bodybuilders and powerlifters). But if you were to look at all the studies done you typically find rows his more rear delts and traps and Pull ups more lats on a set by set, rep by rep basis.
Anecdotes do go both ways. To my point I know rock climbers are often riddled with horrible posture as a result of overpowered lats relative to overall back musculature, i know that I myself could do 15 deadhang pull-ups yet rows fixed my upper back tightness and made me stronger on pull ups after working them more.
My issue isn’t your preference to pull ups for general strength and hypertrophy, it’s that I fear a lot of people who watch your videos will further neglect an already under-utilised movement. Rows aren’t just great for scapular retraction, they are arguably the best anti-flexion exercise period and gives legitimate use for weighted inverted rows when used for this purpose (something that pull-ups, push-ups and planks won’t target), they have huge carry over to front levers and would actually be more useful to the general public (elderly, overweight, people with office/phone posture due to no scapular control)
@@seanking6184 Oh man! That's the problem with the internet... so hard to communicate tone over it 😂 I can't tell you how much I appreciate your critique. I truly appreciate this more than you know AND I find it fun. When it comes to some of the details we disagree on, I don't take that personally at all. Whenever I talk with someone who really knows their stuff, I'm going to defend my position and explain it, because I think I'm probably right (otherwise I wouldn't hold the position), but I am totally open to being wrong, so I'm definitely learning from you already, and either way, you are making me think!
1. Spot on with the pull up comment. I think doing rows before pull ups to build fundamental mechanics, stability, and basic strength is a VERY good idea. This has been my biggest critique of people using negatives to get their first pull up; the mechanics are awful. People who start with rows just seem to build better pulling mechanics, in my experience. For the last 4 or so years, for anyone who can't do 5 nice pull ups, I don't even mess with them; I just have them focus on rows.
2. Good point. I would definitely concede this. I was just thinking in terms of variation in Q angle could allow for some degree in forearm supination that wouldn't rotate the humerus. As I see it, grip only matters insofar as it affect rotation of the humerus, but definitely not something I am super confident in. Kirsch had a sample size of 92 or so people, so I would take his word on it.
4. Yeah this is a SUPER interesting topic. So my point was that I think there is enough variation across the population to get very different results in terms of EMG. My guess is that if you have a bunch of people doing pull ups, and a bunch of people doing rows, the variation within the groups would actually be fairly significant, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was close to the variation between the groups. This is why if you just look at the pull up EMG research, you get get some studies that show posterior delt emg to be higher than lats....www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5548150/
Or some where mid traps actually exceed lat emg instagram.com/chrisabeardsley/p/BQFKoX7js4N/
Or where lower trap exceeds mid trap t-nation.com/t/inside-the-muscles-best-back-and-biceps-exercises/284621 (not peer reviewed research, but I trust Bret)
My point is that the research does show a lot of variability in the relative contribution of the pulling musculature across these movement. I think technique is a HUGE part of this, specifically as it relates to performing the pull up with scap retraction and depression, something VERY hard to do for beginners and something that I would suspect leads to the relatively elevated lat activation when compared to the other back musculature. If you are pulling in a protracted position, in thoracic flexion at part of the Rom where you would otherwise experience peak contraction (how most people pull), I just wouldn't be surprised to see EMG results that suggest the pull up as a overly lat heavy exercise relative to the row. This is totally a hypothesis, but I suspect that in someone who is well trained, with excellent scapulae control, arched back pull ups would elicit very high levels of activation in the lower and mid traps. I would assume greater activation in the lower traps due to the greater scapular depression demands, but by arching the back, you place mid traps closer in line with the force of gravity, and would recruit these significantly. So I think a lot of the goofy EMG results, do come down to the fact that in a lab setting, with the average subject, rows are going to be able to be performed at intensities that lead to fewer compensation, with technique naturally lending itself to mid trap engagement and without moving the upper back into flexion to accomplish the external task of completing the rep, like in a bad pull up. This is a huge limitation in the research, as I see it, because I've trained enough people to see that most people lack the strength to do pull ups well. But yeah I totally agree, I would say that rows bias the traps and rear delts relative to the lats due to the muscle fiber/gravity orientation, but I just wanted to show that there is research out there showing posterior delts/ traps exceed the lat emg in pull ups. My point overall is that I think a PROPERLY executed pull up (hard to do), is more of a complete back exercise than many people think. It's just tough.
Agreed on the rock climbing. Could it be from limited loaded shoulder flexion? I climbed for a while and I don't really remember spending a lot of time in a dead hang position., but a lot of chronic mid range contractions.
I think your criticism about the messaging is right. I've tried to clear this up more because I'm definitely not anti row. I like them better for front levers, for beginners, for elderly, for working around injuries, ets. It's something my messaging hasn't been clear on, as I'm typically coming from a position of arguing FOR pull ups and addressing some of the things I see as misunderstandings. I've even talked to my wife about deleting all of the "row" videos because I don't think I communicated my position well.
@@Kboges I wish more individuals approached such discussions as level headed and open minded as you do, at the end of the day all we want to do is learn more and share a passion for fitness. Even if disagreements (or healthy debates) were to be had we are essentially on the same team 🤣👍
1. Completely agree with this, and for beginners the repercussions are much less on rows given the lower strength, technical and mobility requirements . If you butcher an inverted row slightly (say forward tilted head or not bracing sufficiently) it’s relatively easy to fix and likely won’t result in a bad injury prior to addressing the form. And since the stimulus to fatigue ratio is also great on rows it can be trained with high volume and/or frequency to really get the pulling mechanics down 👊🏻
2. Even if the pronated grip delivers the real shoulder stability benefits I think we can both agree that using a variety of grips is important be it to avoid overuse injuries, train in different planes , emphasise different musculature etc. personally I love the neutral grip the most when doing pull ups and just add dead hangs in specifically for general shoulder health 👍
4. Wow, the evidence you put forward definitely supports your argument and I never considered the possibility that in a lab setting the inverted row would lead itself to potentially more accurate readings over the Pull up given the form and application demands of the movement. Given that the average man can barely if even complete a rep, and most emg studies would have the participant being measured over many reps (3,5,10 etc) it’s certainly possible for readings to be inaccurate given form breakdown and such. Can’t really argue your logic 👍
With that being said I do still feel the rows would bias traps and potentially rear delts more overall. “Pull ups for width and rows for thickness” is a saying as old as time and whilst anecdotal evidence is the lowest form of evidence it’s certainly something that seems to have stuck around fitness circles for the better part of 50 years if not more, anecdotally I often feel very different back sensations doing both exercises.
However, in spite of my attempted defence of rows I will concede to your main point. When pull ups are done properly they have overall greater potential for strength and hypertrophy, and rows are great for some extra volume and reinforcing good pulling mechanics via scapular retraction 👍
But I do think inverted rows, with the rarely discussed benefit of anti-flexion (due to elevated feet resisting gravity, thus strengthening back of core) brings something to the table that people need.
Of course this video is 2 years old, if anything it’s unfair to assume you hold the exact same position on things as you did when the video was made 😅
@@seanking6184 That's exactly it man. We are ALL learning and all on the same team. One of the coolest things about the comment section is how much I can learn from other people, and disagreements/ critiques are definitely where I learn the most, so thank you.
1. Yeah this is definitely something I have changed my opinion on over the years. I look at pull ups now as much more of an advanced exercise just because of the difficulty in doing them well. Rows are MUCH more forgiving and for a beginner, being able to spam them without a huge recovery burden or orthopedic issues is an undeniable benefit.
2.Yeah this is a great point and given your previous point, those who train with a lot of neutral and supinated grip could probably benefit from some dedicated dead hanging, as you suggested.
4. Yeah the variance really through me for a loop at first but after having spent a ton of time refining my technique on the pull up, it became clear to me that these the average pull up, and really good pull ups are a very different thing in terms of activation. I think this is what Franco Columbu was talking about when he was saying basically no one does pull ups right and people are way to quick to load them.
And yeah, agreed on rows biasing the traps and posterior belt. It just makes sense given the orientation of the muscles relative to gravity. The incorporation of the lower body in an anti-flexion capacity is under appreciated for sure, and something I haven't talked about at all. I totally agree on this point.
But yeah man. I'm probably due for an updated video on rows 😂
BTW, dude this was an amazing back and forth and I really enjoyed it. If you have any cool info you think I might find interesting, I would be grateful if you would send it my way. Not sure if you are a coach or just an enthusiast, but I'm always looking for interesting stuff, so if you have any good resources or have read anything interesting lately, please share!
I had really bad shoulder impingement for years, I could only do 2-3 pushups before having extreme pain. Doing deadhangs completely fixed my shoulders. It took a while, about a year of deadhangs a couple times a day but it really worked.
Hey David! My experience is similar. I suffered from shoulder injuries from bench press and for me, dead hangs and dead hang pull ups totally resolved this. At one point I was seriously concerned that surgery was going to be in the cards for me. Luckily, these movements have been amazing for me and my shoulders have managed to stay really healthy.
That's really interesting. Can you do push ups now pain free? If not, what do you do instead?
Same for me! I find that ring dips are the best chest movement to help protect my shoulders from now on. Also make sure you do the butchers block stretch for the lats!
@@liamsir6246 I haven't heard of that stretch.
@@bw6078 if you search in on TH-cam, I know Tom Merrick has it. But effectively, with straight arms, place your palms on a surface that is the same height as your shoulders when kneeling, and push your chest through to the floor. Bit like a German hang.
Honestly man, your no nonsense, no bells and whistles style of videos are refreshing. I wrote off calithenics for such a long period of time in my life. I'm 42 now and am probably in the best shape of my life. Everyone thinks I'm 30 or 31 years old, and the best part is not having some expensive gym membership. I can workout at home while my kids are doing homework and not miss any time with them.
Man, Kurt... I appreciate the kind words and so happy you are enjoying your training! Keep it up!
#42Crew THIS IS WHAT WE DO!💪🏾👊🏿 I JUST GOT A SET OF PARALLETTE BARS...AND IMA DIPPING SOB!🤣 KEEP UP THE WORK BRO!
All of you guys are amazingly wholesome and inspiration I needed throughout the day, keep being amazing!
I agree with your comments. However, I wouldn’t poopooh a gym membership for several reasons. Sometimes it’s nice to gather with like-minded individuals. Going to gym adds a little bit of variety to your usual routine. And finally…there’s usually some eye candy at the gym. :)
Another banger ! Came across your channel right as the daily grind and “peak performance” training was just getting old and too much to sustain. I canceled my gym membership and train everyday In the yard while enjoying the sunshine and gettin those quality reps in. Love this channel. Thank you sir!
Daniel! So happy to hear you are enjoying this style of training. It's a blast and training outside is one of my favorite things to do. Keep at it brother, and keep me posted on your progress!
Yea, we have life eternal with "Vaishya Type-IV" or what is supposedly Latina as a prostitute maybe concubine with them. Way to GO! Arnold is Brahmin Type-I by the way.
I have that book by Dr. Kirsch, It is excellent, and I hang daily, and after having 2 major shoulder surgeries on my left shoulder, my shoulders feel so much better from hanging , I highly recommend his book. And as always another outstanding video Kyle.
Dean! Great to hear from you. Yeah it is such a great book. It really helped me with my shoulders.
Thanks for the kind words and support, Dean!
Completely fixed my shoulders. Had problems for years starting in my 20's and now i'm 58. I do dead hangs at least twice a day and before and after any weight training workouts.
My shoulder mobility always sucked. Pushups were my only exercise that I knew back then, pushups and squats. I didn't do pull-ups that much because I didn't get to have a bar to pull with. After a year or so, I decided to take pull-ups seriously, now, I always stretch my lats when I go down. The day after I did my pull-ups, my chest and shoulders were as sore as my back. It really stretched my shoulders good and improved my posture overall.
I had no muscle mass in my back before pull ups. They really helped. I got obsessed with getting into the 10-15 rep range for a while, but now I just enjoy doing clean reps with full range of motion.
For years I did only pull ups and chin ups. When I started doing rows my lats grew (wings) quickly. Made a big difference for my back musculature.
That’s facts. It’s because you pull yourself from a horizontal angle wich is great for back development. Think of it like you were rowing, the human being is naturally designed to pull from that angle.
Yeah this is a pretty common observation! I think a lot of this has to do with how pull ups are performed. I honestly don't see a lot of people performing really high quality pull ups. I'm not saying this is your case, but the pull up is probably the most commonly butchered exercise I see- they are almost always done with poor ROM, poor scap mechanics, no thoracic extension, poor control, bombed eccentrics, etc. Rows are actually the perfect exercise for building up the strength to do pull ups with really good form. Also, sometimes it can a bit difficult to know what is exactly contributing to gains... for instance, it could be the strength you built from pull ups that allowed you to perform and progress your rows in a way that really drove muscle gains. Some adaptations potentiate the adaptions we see from different training later down the road. OR... you are spot on and you just respond better to rows. In my personal experience, rows never did much for back growth, and professionally, I have rarely (if ever) seen the row deliver better gains in size and strength in the back when compared to pull ups (I'm talking about the calisthenics version of rows, not barbell rows).
@@Kboges for sure pull-ups are very bad executed. I don’t see a lot of people in gyms doing good pull-ups. The way I do bodyweight rows is with my feet elevated, a bit higher than my shoulder level so that I have a maximum weight to pull with my arms. Using a straight bar or rings are some of my favorite exercice. Usually I do 3 sets of pull ups with good control, pause on the bottom and when contracted, then 3 sets of rows and finishing off with close grip chin ups to have a focus on my biceps. Highly effective
@@thorboayo great bro
@@thorboayo do you do 3 sets of 10? And also, do you use a weight belt when executing pull ups?
Kyle as always spiting facts 100% accurate. Keep up the good work greetings from Greece 🇬🇷
Thank you, Christos!
During 2020, I experimented with high rep pushups and pullups. Worked up to a 500 pushup workout using sets of 10 with perfect form. Also did perfect form pullups with sets of 5 till 100 reps were complete. Tested my bench. Easy 225x 8-10. Tested pullups. Hit 90lbs for 4. I was really surprised.
That’s badass, How much did you weight?
@@gerardov9693 190-195
That in a day ?
How many times per week? For how long?
@@lukesemail6980 once per week.
I recently commented to you about shoulder issues I’ve had for about a year and since lowering the intensity and following a much much slower progression scheme my shoulder has started to very slowly improve. I will now incorporate hangs after my training sessions to try and rebuild the shoulder. Also noticed in my bad shoulder it does seem my upper trap is far too active, so I’ll try this. Thanks!
Good to hear! Keep it up. Slow and steady.
I really appreciate this comment because I too have an over active upper trap on my left shoulder.
Another insightful video as usual...I suffered with a torn supraspinatus tendon in both my shoulders for 2 years....Deadhangs and bodyweight rows r simply the 2 best exercises that u need to do to improve ur shoulders...hv greatly benefitted wid them...thanks Kyle...
Good to hear you have recovered! They are two great exercises for sure!
Dude, as always, your content is fantastic. Really appreciated the mention about dead hang research.
Have an awesome day!
Thank you! I'm happy you enjoyed this, Attention.
Another brilliant video, KBoges. Like many others, I had a nagging shoulder problem. I can't say that dead-hanging is the sole or primary exercise that resolved it, but it sure seems like it was. Thanks for all the exceptional content!
Thank you, Michael! Glad to hear your shoulder has gotten better! 💪 Thanks for the support brother!
You are the GOAT man. I am definitely trying out your style of training from may.
Thank you, AliHK! I appreciate that very much.
As always love your videos. It’s just 0 percent bullshit and motivates you to actually go out again and start moving. Your videos helped motivate me to get back into a pushup and sit up routine and it feels really good to be there again.
Your videos changed how I viewed calisthenics and overall health and fitness great video as always and if you guys arent in the Kboges community on Mighty Networks I recommend you do so. very helpful and informative and good community.
So stoked to hear this, Jon! Thanks for the kind feedback! I'm so happy you are enjoying the content.
Love your videos❤️
Quality instead of quantity.
Thank you!
Inverted rows with a dip belt are actually pretty practical for me. I actually found that what I can do for 8 reps on weighted pullups, for inverted rows with the same weight I can do 12 reps with full squeeze give or take. I think they are the perfect accessory for getting a heavy weighted pullup. It might be 1-1 in terms of how you progress with weighted pullups and weighted inverted rows. I find if I do 7 sets of pullups It's too much for me to recover from, but if I halve it with weighted inverted rows I feel different musculature getting prioritized meaning I can get way more volume with a lower amount of fatigue.
You really have inspired me to devote myself to callisthenics and see where it takes me 💪 keep up the great work!
So happy to hear this, Peter! Keep at it and keep me posted!
Hey M K you are amazing and I really love your advice. Continue to do what you do we will always support you. From Singapore!!!
Jov lee! Thank you so much for this. I appreciate your support and kindness!
Kyle, thanks for doing another excellent video!
Thank you Geoff! I appreciate the support!
Rows are an absolute staple in my workouts, very satisfying
Keep at em, they are very useful! My point was more that a lot of people think pull ups are not productive for maintaining healthy shoulders, but they actually have some really unique benefits, plus they train the infraspinatus and posterior deltoid, just like rows do.
Exactly, cool how you mentioned Dr Kirsch
Thanks for this great advice and for sharing it with the viewers... especially the importance of the dead hang for shoulder health..
Health is wealth ... Great ⭐Channel and thank for all the efforts put in.
Thank you very much!
I really like your content. Everything makes sense BUT as I speak for myself, doing bodyweight rows are highly effective for my back growth, it gives me that thickness in the back. 🇫🇷
Thanks! Yeah rows can certainly be useful for sure. I think they have some shortcomings, BUT these shortcomings can be leveraged as advantages if used in the right context. For instance, rows are just EASIER to recover from because of the lower ROM and poor strength curve. This makes them the perfect choice for light day training, allowing you still to accumulate volume for the scap retractors while managing overall recovery.
“physiological hygiene that keeps the joint moving well” what a great phrase
Thanks, Devin!
Spot on as usual, thanks for the tips 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Thank you!
I just wanted to say that your reasoning completely changed the way I train. And once again you managed to break up a believe by the mainstream fitness community which isn't being questioned at all.
Awesome work.
Thank you so much! This is a wonderful compliment!
Pull up is amazing before that my neck tension was very painful when I sit for long time
SAME!
Precise as always. Keep it up.
I tend to occasionally have a satisfying crack in the shoulders doing my pullups. I've always done rows for the reason you stated " I thought I had to" even though it was always a chore to do them. They are a useful exercise, but I'm happy to know I can keep chinning and pulling without needing to row.
Totally. Rows are useful, but in terms of efficiency, pull ups and chin ups are hard to beat. I still like rows as assistance movement and a light day exercise.
I have been training with body weight and dumbells for 3 years. Great form, nutrition , etc.
I now am dealing with a shoulder problem. Loose body has been detected.
Cause was over use with high repetitions. Waiting to see a orthopedic surgeon to see if surgery is necessary to fix . If surgery is the call that will be a 4 month recovery meaning all gains lost and starting over ( at 52 years old) .
When I am able to train again I will not be returning to high rep calisthenics . I will stick to weights. Less repetitions and less stress and taxation on ligaments and connective tissue. All those training strictly with body weight, beware unless your in your 20's.
Like I stated , I performed with great form and nutrition. Still got snapped up.
Hundreds of Pull ups , push ups, and dips will eventually take its toll on you.
Another excellent vid, Dr. Boges. Super inspiring/relaxing to watch considering most content is full of excessive noise/music/etc. Can I ask which gymnastic rings you're using here?
Thank you, Ramon! I appreciate that!
I use Rogue metal rings. My favorite.
💯 I also appreciate the uncluttered video production and seeing many reps on video. For our focus on good form, it helps us study the motion repeatedly without having to pause the video or skip backward. Really loving your work here. You’re making a big difference!
Bro, this was a super helpful video.
Happy to hear that, Cody!
I do dead hangs first thing in the morning when I get up. It just helps with pretty much everything the rest of the day. In fact, if I skip doing the hangs for a few days I'll get side stitches (cramps) from the most common, everyday movements like reaching to get something off a shelf.
I think everyone would be better off if they did this. Great suggestions
Brilliant video, this is exactly what I needed as I have some shoulder issues bugging me for years!
Glad it found you, Uno Ro!
As a college student that spent hours studying , typing, driving etc. I had horrible posture. My solution was high volumes of push-ups and hanging to solve my shoulder issues. Benching is basically out of the question now.
Chin ups and dead hangs helped me with an issue with winged scapula and chronic upper back pains. Sure, losing weight played a big role in the back pain issue too, but I still got back pains that go away after doing chins or pull ups. I'm just doing sets with half of my max reps through the day now and my back has never been better.
I needed this, i used to believe that you needed rows for balance. I much prefer pullups anyway so this makes my training more fun 🙂
Man I love your content, thank you.
If you stuck some acoustic foam tiles around your desk, the sound of your voice recording would improve so much! 🙏🏼
Thanks! Yeah I know. I got a new mic and it helps a lot, but there is still more work to be done.
Great video. A lot of people neglect the full range of motion when doing pull ups.
Kyle, keep them videos coming!
:)
Will do! Thank you for the support!
100% Agreee
Glad this one connected with you!
Really like your content, the back progress is visible. Great!💪
Thanks! Yeah my mid traps and posterior delts have definitely improved over the last few years. Not a HUGE amount of size, but a nice addition for sure. This was an area that I used to really struggle to develop, but dialing my form in and working on paused reps changed this for me.
I too was having some shoulder pain from past injuries. Somewhere along the line I discovered the dead hang I believe it was from a TH-cam video and it has helped immensely. Also I just put gymnastic rings attach to my pull-up bar and I'm going to give those a try. I haven't been to your website but I would be curious if you offer a weighted calisthenics program? Anyway thanks for the video!
Good to hear, Scotty! Yeah, I have a free barbell + calisthenics program on there.
Wow, channel is blowing up. It seems like you had 10k subscribers yesterday.
I know... it's wild. I'm very grateful! Thank you for the support!
Great content as usual 💪
Well said Sir!!
Thanks, Mike!
I knew hanging to be one of the fundamental movements in calisthenics and gymnastics training but the idea that hanging is not only useful but neccassary for maintaining shoulder health is a great insight. Does it matter if the grip is pronated or supinated or on rings? Great video. Thanks.
That's a great question. Kirsch's study was only on the pronated grip, so I'm not sure how supinated the grip would change the mechanics of what he describes. That would be a great question for him.
Supination is stronger and more stable then pronation
i think its save to say that shoulder with neutral grip should be a good mixture of all and therefore a save option
Fantastic information! Thanks!
Interesting video. I did some dead hangs yesterday but now I think I should do more throughout the week.
I would appreciate if you could create a short video explaining each phase of a pull up with the right technique and postures. I have just started my pull up journey, have low shoulder strength and been trying to have pull ups with perfect posture like yours using resistance bands. Not being able to achieve a good posture.
Good Day, happy to have found your channel. I am 59 yrs old, 6’ 3”, and 185 lbs. I have worked out with resistance training all my life. In the beginning the goal was to get big. I’ve been as heavy as 250 but was not happy. I found my sweet spot at between 215/220. A few years ago I experienced a massive stroke. No drugs BTW. I went all the way down to 165 lbs. I have worked back up to 185 and am somewhat happy there. I have lost some of my balance and fine motor ability in my right arm but it could be much worse. I still workout with weights 3-4 times a week. I am interested in learning more about calisthenics type training. I am now only interested in maintaining a lean and fit muscular body. In your opinion do you think this would be a viable option? Thx for your time.
Damn, 59 yrs old with those abs? Way to go!
Are you on TRT or some kind of hormone replacement therapy?? Or is it naturally possible to maintain that muscle mass at your age, I'm genuinely curious.
Yeah it certainly is a viable option, provided there is nothing contraindicated by your doc. Keep me posted on your progress and best of luck to you!
@@Kboges thx for responding. I now follow your calisthenics with weights program and have recently purchased a set of rings and discovered how weak I really am, lol
Great stuff sir!
Awesome content as always, this is quickly becoming one of my favorite fitness channels! My question to you is, do you know have any pain or discomfort from benching or pressing as you did in the past? Does your own program incorporate weights and calisthenics? Thank you!
Thank you!
I haven't trained benched in years! Maybe once or twice to mess around with it so I can't really tell you. Push ups are totally pain free though.
Barbell + calisthenics combines weights and BW. Its a free program on my site.
Your content is top quality. Tq.
Thank you Tim!
Another great vid Kev 👍
Thank!
Great information. Thanks
My pleasure, Connor!
Amazing dude, thank you. Subbed
Great info, very helpful
Hi, great content again, thank you.
My question is how do you know if you're scapular mechanics are good enough to do pull ups and chin ups safely?
Great content, thanks!!!!
I get now I had to do 12 push ups to caught up with you. sensei
Yes!💪
The only "Row" I like is a chest supported row with the T-Bar machine.
Doing bodyweight rows, barbell rows, dumbbell rows or cable rows doesn't feel as good as Pull Ups, Chin Ups or Lat Pulldown!
YeahI agree. Chest supported rows are pretty great!
Hey Kyle, throughout your videos, i can see that you are a fan of daily undulating periodization. Do you think it's an style of periodization that is not as well suited for beginners since the exercices keep changing or the rep range keep changing. So they don't have much time to master a rep range?
Great question! Yeah I think starting out minimal variation is probably the way to go. Once you get past the beginner gains, DUP is such a great way to train- I find it hard to beat.
What's undulating periodization, please? (Total noob here).
@@alejandrop.s.3942a type of training where volume and intensity change either weekly or daily
Another insightful video. My only question is: If I am intermediate level with pull ups, can/should I dispense with rows altogether?
You certainly could, but the row is still valuable as a light day exercise and an assistance exercise to help manage fatigue while still getting in some good scap retraction work.
Extraordinary content
I truly appreciate that, dude! Thanks you.
I may sound stupid for asking this but can you please make a video on how to walk properly? I think this is an underrated topic & I recently found out that I have something called a knock knee, so it would really help me fix my posture & to relearn how to walk properly with activating my glutes.
I am first and just the video i was wishing for , i love he makes everything so simple and practical . Awesome work sir 👍👍👍😁😁😁
Thank you, Rohith! I appreciate the support and the kind words!
what's your preference... pull up or chin up?
What are the differences between the pronation and supination grip?
I agree on the idea, but not upon everything.
The deltoid is the only muscle in our own body that constitutes its own antagonist. Consequently, training the rear delts means executing the opposite movements of ones training the front delts.
Where I converge with you, is that the shoulder has many other muscles that allow to balance the whole integrity of the musculature in other ways.
Yeah I agree. This is just one piece of the puzzle. Shoulder problems are complex, so this is just a glimpse at how rows and pull ups interact with shoulders to reduce injury risk. As for the external rotators, pull ups actually train the infraspinatus and posterior Deltoid very strongly... I attached a few links supporting this because I anticipated this point being made. My position is really that both of these movements are useful, but pull ups have some really cool features for keeping shoulders healthy.
@@Kboges Definitely agree with you.
Love pull ups. Really one of the best all around exercices.
thanks for the info!
Thank you! 🙇
It's my pleasure!
I would be really interested in seeing a video in which you explain the PERFECT PULL UP MOTION please
Excellent
Thanks!
Great video as always Kyle, your channel is truly a gem! Anyways I have a question that's not related to the upper body. What I want to ask you is how would you go about achieving a full or even good squat mobility? Because I really like to train daily using the template you suggested, but lunges have become quite boring and I've never had a decent squat mobility
Check out the “squat university” TH-cam channel. Can’t wait to hear Kyle’s insights, too!
Great question! It really depends on the mobility restrictions. Some restrictions are structural (like in the hips) and this can limit ROM at the bottom of the squat. Others are soft tissue related. In general, I've worked with a lot of older guys that struggle to squat even to parallel, and simply progressing the squat in depth over time has worked quite well. I will often use a box, right about the limit of the ROM, and have the client perform goblet squats. After a few weeks, I either elevate their feet or drop the height of the box a little lower and repeat. I've gotten several older guys to ATG squats this way (combined with some static holds at the bottom of the ROM) and several others to various degrees below parallel (probably toward the limits of their anatomical ROM).
Others might have some better ideas to improve squat mechanics. Squat University is TOP NOTCH info, as is Kelly Starrett. Can't go wrong with either.
@@Kboges Thanks for the advice man!
Could you elaborate more on what you mean by dead hang? Do you mean to hang completely free without retracting the scapula (basically just holding the bar and letting your body pull you down)? Or do you mean to actively hang?
Exactly. Relaxed shoulders. Seriously, check out Dr. John Kirsch. His stuff is SOLID.
Always great advice, thank you. With that , realizing I’m 70 yrs old and at this time I can only do 3/4 pull up once. Is there hope for me? 😂😄 thanks again
Absolutely! Start with some band assisted pull ups and some ring rows. Train them consistently and you will get there. I had a client work up to his first pull ups in his late 70's. It can be done!!!
@@Kboges many thanks, I’m on it. Don’t mind getting old just hate losing strength
Awesome. Let us know how it goes!
Amazing video, i had shoulder pain in my left shoulder. I performed dead hang a few time throughout the day and results were amazing. Can you please recommend me something to improve shoulder mobility?
BAR! Great to hear form you! Yeah dead hangs are amazing!
For shoulder mobility, it is a great place to start. Other than that, shoulder dislocated with a strap or broom handle are great, as is yoga in general! We used to have a yoga instructor at my gym, and it was a great addition for upper body mobility.
Do you have a video on getting your first pull-up or how to progress on pull-ups? I can only do about 7 decent-ish pull-ups with a resistance band.
Working on that now!
Well these benefits are attributed to the deadhang not the pull up. Pull ups make the lats tight, the deadhang you do at the end of every rep isn't going to be enough stretching or to remodel your shoulder. If I want to really stretch the lats, I need to do one arm deadhang with something like a ring while a support my body on the ground.
Rows definitely feels much nicer on shoulders and elbows. Pull ups are harsh on the joints. A neutral grip or rings is a must to do pull ups for me.
If pull ups are important for lower traps, rows are also important for shoulder retraction.
Hey Sakuraki! These are all good points, but I would respectfully disagree with a you a bit on this. You can definitely improve mobility and extensibility by moving through ROM. I have seen this over and over again training people in person.... many people cannot get even close to full shoulder flexion when starting out, and working them through full ROM pull ups, with 1-3 second dead hangs at the bottom, reliably opens this up over time- very similar to how squatting and challenging your ROM at the bottom of the squat can improve ROM in the squat over time. I'm not sure that this is even a debatable point.... you do not have to do static stretching to gain and increase in ROM, so if your lats are tight, simply strengthening them at your end ROM will increase the ROM over time. For shoulder remodeling, it's a matter of time in the position. If you maintain this overhead position consistently in your training, and apply it over a long time, I don't see why the joint would not adapt to this. To get a fast rate of adaptation, you certainly would need to spend some dedicated time on dead hangs, so I do think there is some merit there. From my own experience, I did spend a bit of time dead hanging, but now I do not, and I incorporate it into my pull ups. This has been plenty to keep my shoulders healthy. If I spend and average of 2 seconds at the bottom of the hang between each rep, and I perform 10-15 reps on average, and do 2-4 sets per day 7x per week, I'm getting a pretty good exposure to that ROM over the course of a month... plus it is consistent.
As for your preference for rows, people do vary in this regard. For me, rows have never felt more natural or easier on my joints than pull ups. If you find you tolerate them better, then definitely include them more. That makes total sense.
Your videos are great, thank you! Could you please provide something for winged scapula?
Ah good question. If this is something you are dealing with, get it checked out by a good sports doc or a PT. There can be several reasons for this.
Properly performed pullups with global extension produce better results than rows in every single way. Rows are great for beginners to learn the pulling movement itself, but its not the main builder. Once you can do pullups with perfect forms, why do rows? Maybe if youre bored of pullups and want to switch it up?
100% agree. I'm with you on all that. I haven't heard a good counter-argument to this. It's a superior exercise, with great ROM, a stretched position, more load, and a better strength curve. And yeah, rows are great for building people up to pull ups.
Nothing like a pullup video by Kyle during my rest time on pull day. Am I right?
Thank you!
Damn this guy is so zen in all his videos. And training in that beautiful yard in the sun seems awesome. Honestly I would love to own a big house with a big beautiful outdoor area like that and just set up my own gym and workout in the sun. Weather always seems good in your videos too, where do you live?
Haha thanks, Max! I love training outside.
I live in San Diego.
@@Kboges Well that explains the weather. I live in Sweden, which unfortunately means I only get sun and good weather for about 3 months a year, maybe 4 if we're lucky.
Do you think having both rows and pull-ups in a workout routine has more overall benefit, or just do more on pull-ups?
I’m doing full body 4-5 days a week, and pull-ups + rows are my main back workouts.
My body feels good in all ranges of a pull-up.
So really just wondering if you see utility in having both.
Thanks for the content, it’s very well executed and to the point. Hope you find time to reply!
I'm curious about this question as well
Great question! It really depends on your strength and your goals. Rows are GREAT for people who need more scap retraction strength, and/or need to manage overall fatigue while getting a little more work in for these muscles. So in some contexts, yes, it's a great plan. For me, personally, I've worked a lot on my scapular mechanics during pull ups, so I prefer to spend much more time doing these instead of rows, but I will still do rows on a day when I need some light training.
Hey Kyle,
I've been doing ladders for a couple of months and loving it. I alternate upper (push ups + rows) and lower (Bulgarian split squats) every day.
Currently I'm at 5 sets of 2,3,5, which equals 50 reps.
I've worked out three different paths for progression. Could you explain what the difference between these options? What would be the benefits and drawbacks of each?
A) Stay at 5 sets, Lengthen ladders
Go from 5x2,3,5 = 50 reps
to 5x2,3,5,2 = 60 reps
to 5x2,3,5,2,3 = 75 reps etc
B) Stay at 50 reps, Condense ladders
Go from 5x2,3,5 = 50 reps
to 4x2,3,5,2 = 48 reps (+2)
to 3x2,3,5,2,3 =45 reps (+5)
When I reach 50 reps in three ladders, raise the rep goal to 75 and start again at five ladders (i.e. 75 reps in 5 ladders > 75 reps in 4 ladders > etc.).
C) Stay at ~50 reps, Increase reps, and Condense ladders
Go from 5x2,3,5 = 50 reps
to 4x2,4,6 = 48 reps
to 3x3,5,8 = 48 reps
to 2x4,8,12 = 48 reps
Thank you!
All these will work and all are good displays of progress. I would think about it like this... "progress" is the display of your adaptations, and you can display your progress any number of ways. All these protocols are capable of stimulating adaptation, so pick one or mix it up, you won't go wrong.
@@Kboges Awesome. Thanks so much!
Thanks for another great vídeo Kyle. Quick question. I can currently do only 4 consecutive pullups (on rings, with a dynamic grip). Should I do the three day program you recomended on a previous vídeo, or work more on rows? Thanks 👏🏼
Hey Esteban, at this point, I would work on rows more. You are at the perfect stage to benefit from them greatly.
Great video. Can I do only dips and ditch pushups? Ditch pull-ups and only do chin-ups? Will I be lacking in something if I do this? My reason: I Naturally have developed chest and back. But arms are skinny. If dips are done vertically I can put more stress on triceps. On chin-ups, I can place more stress on the biceps. So bigger arms are of higher priority. I also do a bit of a isolation exercises for them. Thanks!
Wondering if there is an ideal push-up : pull-up ratio that I should be shooting for in my training?
great video love your channel man also I got a question about my injury , I have been dealing with an elbow injury I got from doing weighted dips back in February and it still hasn't gone away any ideas on how I can recover ? every time it think its gone it keeps coming back in pain
This is tough to say. The best advice I could give would be to go get it checked out by a good sports doc or a pt. These things can be frustrating, but get it checked out to make sure you aren't damaging it further.
Just do rows and pull-ups.
Rows are crucial for thicc traps and rhomboids and you can target the rear delts with a wide grip
Excellent info. Thank you. I'm curious about the rings. Is it preferable to do dead hang pull ups using the rings as opposed to gipping the bar directly?
Thanks, Jim! I think either one will work just fine.
Hey Kyle I commented on the last video but thought I'd be more likely to get a response here. I'm struggling to get my left side working as hard as my right (dominant) side during push ups and pull ups. I'd consider my form is pretty bang on, but there are clear differences in how my right side feels during a workout. Any advice?
Yeah this can be tough because it could be a structural issue too. I usually recommend slow reps, and identifying the part of the ROM where things go weird, then stopping there making the correction, holding for a bit, and then moving on with the rep. Also, if you find a particular position is driving most of the asymmetry, isometric holds at that position with actively correcting yourself can help out a lot.
@@Kboges After doing this for a couple days I can feel the left side getting trained a bit more. Wasnt keen on buying some dumbbells to even out the strength. Good stuff
If you can do pull-ups properly, would you still advise doing rows or stick to pull ups? Or do a completely different exercise with regards to shoulder strength and mobility as well as shoulder health.
I like to include both. Rows are great for getting a bit of extra work on the scap retractors while allowing for a bit more recover (because of the reduced ROM). They make for an excellent recovery workout, and the extra work on posterior Deltoid, and mid/lower traps is always a good inclusion.
thanks
astonishing
Awesome video Kyle. Do you think that thorough and regular stretching of the lats through dead hang pull ups/ chins obviates the need for separate work on the external rotators e.g. via dumbbell external rotations etc?
Also, my shoulder flexion ROM absolutely sucks. I can raise my arms to about 150 degrees max. Would this be a risk factor for poor shoulder health?
This is a great question. The EMG research on posterior delts and infraspinatus, combined with stretching the lats and increasing sub-acromial space with dead hangs is ALL that I have needed. I did the classic external rotation work in PT after a shoulder injury with 0 success. You experience may differ, but for my dead hangs and dead hang pull ups have been everything for getting my shoulders healthy again (after bench press and martial arts injuries).
2:04, couldn't this be achieved by simply performing dead hangs from a bar? I always understood rows to be superior for "shoulder health" and potentially posture due to the effect they elicit on the rear delts, rhomboids, etc...
Thanks for the informative video as always! I was wondering whether you could make a video about the brachialis muscle and tendon (as I'm suffering from chronic issues there)
As an aside, I'd be curious to know whether you've ever tried climbing/bouldering!