I think it should have the Duck. It both humanises the man in a charming way, but also represents his influences and achievements in a very clever way.
Absolutely agree - very pompous of the grandsons and supporters to kick up a stink. A duck would have been a talking point and, in attracting people to the statue, would have made their grandfather’s achievements better known. Something of an ‘own goal’ by Team Anti-Duck (assuming honouring Sir Nigel is their prime objective).
I agree but there's important question - where to place that duck? I assume to hang up some mallard figures on the opposite side of the concourse and at the line of sight of the eyes of the statue so as anyone who knows the thing could stand abreast Sir Nigel and see his beloved mallard too ;) So both parties - pro- and contra-duck could keep calm and watch or not watch The Duck(s)
Genuine, on-the-day Duck Protester here. We were very careful not to interrupt the unveiling ceremony but most surprised to end up on the local news (we got interviewed but never expected anything to come of it). The frustrating thing about it is that the Gresley Society came up with the idea *and fundraised for it*, NOT the family. So we feel very aggrieved that the mallard was removed. Now, sadly, all the attention is on a certain fictitious platform, and Sir Nigel's likeness is largely ignored.
I never heard about the duck until today, but I have to say you did amazing work, if anyone ever has cause to make a statue of me I hope they include a duck
If he was, as is clear, a very committed bird-watcher and named his most famous locomotive thus, how could a representation of the real thing at his feet be demeaning? If it had been sculpted dropping 'messages' on his head from above, well, fair enough, but at his feet??? What happened to the family's gratitude that an expensive statue was being erected in the first place???
Those of us who contributed financially fully expected that the mallard would be present. There are no shortage of contemporary photographs of Sir Nigel feeding ducks at his home.
Imagine loving birds so much that you introduce it into your most famous work. And your family, still sitting on your coat tails, insist that a duck would be demeaning. This is why "family" should mean the people you choose to spend time with, and should not by synonymous with "blood relations".
Quite a fowl state of affairs, and a commentary on why one should fly the coop when needed to nest amongst ACTUAL birds of a feather. (Puns aside, fine comment, OP. Well typed.)
I am pro-duck, as well. Thank you, Mr. Hazzard, for another fine tale. Perhaps we could commission the installation of a duck statue, of course to be placed outside the territorial limit of Gresley's statue. It would be an independent duck and, by utter coincidence, installed nearby.
Gresley was, in my eyes, the best locomotive designer we’ve ever had. They should’ve definitely kept the duck, a nice nod to both his greatest achievement and a personal hobby of his.
What were his family thinking? I expect most subscribers here have heard of Gresley, and agree that he deserves a statue, but to most passers-by it's just a statue of some bloke. But a bloke with a duck? That'd draw the attention this great designer deserves.
When Gresley organised the speed record attempt, he asked the running department for a suitable driver. The running department told Gresley, that they would provide the best driver they could find. Gresley told the running department, that he did not want the best driver, he wanted a fearless driver. Driver Joe Duddington got the job.
Does anyone remember those Plaster Ducks that were popular during the 1960's, which people put on their walls? Three of them in a line and once they were put up, they stayed there for decades. I won a set on a Rifle Range at a funfair at Barry Island in 1963, on a day out with my local Youth Club. Gave them to my mother and they went with her from home to home, including when she went into care with Dementia, in 2013. I've now got the remaining two. I'd be quite happy to donate them to 'The Cause'.
I followed the controversy of the duck saga online at the time. In my view the decision of Gresley's grandsons to object to its presence was absolutely pathetic - they should be ashamed of themselves !! 🤬🤬🤬
Interesting video, i wasn't aware of the 'duck' controversy, but i think the idea of a mallard as part of the statue was a brilliant idea, and those who thought it 'wrong' missed atrick.
I was definitely in the pro duck camp at the time. These days, if I have a moment to spare, I always give his statue a good buff of its nose, hoping to start a tradition of rubbing it for good luck in your train journey. I imagine it gaining a shiny lustre over time and repeated passenger buffing. Kindof as a repost to his surviving family: you denied us a duck, here, now he’s got a shiny nose. Petty but fun.
This is the first I've heard of this controversy, and within two seconds I've decided to join the pro-duck faction. Of course I don't know what the specific arguments of the family were. But I also know that I can't speak for any of my family members who died eighty years ago, and it would be presumptuous of me to try and act like I was the sole authority on them. Plus, it's fun.
Terrific episode. Intelligence isn't particularly hereditary. The mallard is faster than the eagle in level flight - and maintains that speed for a great migration! If any marvel of evolution looks modest (to townies), that just makes it more English. Sir Gresley will be disappointed that his estate killed off every last vestige of the natural world. Bringing joy and variety to the concourse, a mallard's back would have been polished by many small hands; and appreciated by curious minds.
Gresley's Mallard was all it was quacked up to be, but personally I couldn't give a duck one way or the other about whether the statue has been fowled. 🦆
@richardharrold9736 Nah. Mallard had a known hot running baring issue. There wasn't time to fix it fully before the run so they packed it with grease and went ahead. No permanent damage was done, and a follow up run was planned for 1939/40 but was cancelled by the outbreak of war. As for the Germans and their nationalised Deutsche Reichsbahn; it's poor performance prior to and during WWII probably shortened the war for the allies by a couple of years 😁 . Meanwhile, the A4's - and the Big Four's Locomotives in general - gave sterling wartime service, and most surrvived it too.
He was interested in and indeed cared about ducks. The only thing that stops something that was very particular to Gresley being immortalised with him, is a sense of pompous preservation of self-importance. I feel it is extraordinarily improbable that Gresley himself would have disapproved of the duck being there. But may well have been extremely demanding about the quality and accuracy of the duck’s representation. Clearly, the duck should be there.
Well done getting footage of the statue, every time I’ve tried to take a picture of it there is a constant stream of people standing right in front of it!
Tangentially, the Mallard plays a brief but starring role in Patrick Stewart’s autobiography. As a boy, he was an avid trainspotter, and an up close encounter with the Mallard on a childhood trip was a cherished childhood memory for him.
For a long time I thought that a mallard must have been a very special bird and later found that it was the, sometimes scruffy, bird that tried to snatch the bread out of your fingers.
Having spent a lot of my childhood around a duckpond (Barnes, in London), I can empathise with Gresely's love of this endearing bird. Bold, striking plumage, and a bit mad, going down to feed them was (for a while at least) better than television.
Our physics teacher was really into steam- locomotives and paddle steamers. He knew who the Lucy Ashton was and told us about Gresley as well as Ohm, Boyle, Kelvin etc. I think he said that Gresley was born somewhere near what is now the Commonwealth Pool. I may be wrong though. I always thought Gresley looked liked Nigel Bruce who played Watson to Basil Rathbone's Sherlock. I find the duck reference intriguing. It's just the sort or germ of an idea for an oblique reference via, say, an occasional character, such as the Duck Man in the Discworld novels. Terry Pratchett had just the sort of mind and technical interests and abilities bubbling under the surface that would do such a thing, which is just my opinion based in suspicions and no evidence whatsoever. I've never found him explaining Gresley's conjugated valve gear for example. (Sir Walter Scott was no different. His house had flushing toilets, underfloor heating and a gas generating plant. He owned or edited The Edinburgh Annual Review and certainly seems to have had more than a passing interest in Henry Bell's Comet, the first successful steamship in Europe as it is quoted from a lot in Bell's biography. But I digress and apologise. Neither Scott nor Bell knew anything about conjugated valve gear).
Gresley was a brilliant engineer, but he also had Oliver Bullied and Arthur Peppercorn working for him as assistants, and was friends with André Chapelon. A veritable A-team of elite railway engineers.
Dear aw34565, he also had Thompson, his successor, and inheritor of a railway struggling under wartime difficulties . Thompson was delegated by Gresley to overseas the rebuilt GER B12/3 with Dia99a boiler, which showed Gresley's confidence in Thompson's ability. Gresley was brilliant, but equally importantly, also had a knack for nurturing talent for the future, both Harrison and TCB Miller were xLNER.
+1 for the duck. The Woodhead electrics, which I remember well as I live not far away from it, looked great in black, ok in green and terrible in blue.
So long as Gresley is looking up, we can imagine he is seeing a bird racing above the horizon, and dreaming of building a machine that can all but fly over the rails.
Jago, for no other reason than curiosity, I've just been looking at the width of the Japanese Shinkansen track width and was surprised to see it's the same standard 1,435 mm (4 ft 8+1⁄2 in) width as we have here in the UK, despite it always looking so much wider on video. On further digging, I discovered that it's the loading gauge of the trains themselves that are wider - shinkansen trains can be 3.4 m wide and 4.5 m tall compared to the UK's standard width of 2.80 m. This made me ponder....If it's not going to go any further North, why not pull out all the stops with the infrastructure, have Shinkansen-sized rolling stock for HS2, and make for a truly unrivalled fast service between London and Birmingham? The track is going to be, for the majority of the route, arrow straight already, and could cut the journey time between London and Birmingham right down. The Shinkansen can do Tokyo to Nagoya (178 Miles) in 40 minutes. As the crow flies, London to Birmingham is 101 Miles, or around 120 Miles by road, so it could theoretically be done in as little as 30 minutes or less! I really had nothing better to do tonight than look all that up!! lol
HS2 is being built to the UIC GC. This is the modern European standard loading gauge which is roughly equivalent to that used by the Japanese high speed lines and works fine for the French TGV trains which manage 320-340kmh. Anything else would be sheer lunacy. The rolling stock itself is being built to the British loading since it will need to run beyond HS2 (a reasonable compromise IMO). There's nothing precluding later larger trains if the demand is shown to be there. There's being a lot of stupidity surrounding HS2 but the engineers building the thing know what there doing.
The issue here is not so much loading gauge, which as others have pointed out is similar, but what HS2 was originally designed to do. The goal wasn't to get from London to Birmingham as fast as possible, it was supposed to connect the North of England to London via Birmingham with a high speed route capable and take long distance passengers off existing and highly congested rail line, allowing for more local services and freight across the country. Because of this it was useful to have HS2 connect to regular rail lines, to prevent anyone who wanted to go up and down the country from somewhere that wasn't on HS2 to somewhere that also isn't having to change trains three times. That meant that HS2 was built to a bigger loading gauge for the sake of future proofing, it trains had to be able to negotiate regular tracks too and - at least for now - those tracks have very small tight clearances. It's a good job too, with the cancellation of ½ - ¾ of HS2 trains capable of running only between London and Bimhgam would be of rather limited use.
A thought on the passing of David McCallum, actor, who played Dr Mallard on NCIS. There was a model the the Mallard engine in his "office" (the autopsy room) during the show. If you don't know him, he looked like Illya Kuryakin.
At the time of the record, Gresley and the LNER stated a maximum speed of 125mph, as that speed was actually maintained. Mallard touched 126mph for approx one second, so they didnt feel that speed deserved a mention.
Now that’s my kind of protest. I’d love to show up to a railway station with a handful of rubber ducks to protest infront of a statue one of the great railway legends.
The man was so into birdwatching he named an entire class of locos after different bird species. Having a mallard included in the statue would have been the *perfect* way to memorialise him.
Great video. Strange, I have always admired the locomotive and the Duck for different reasons. Somehow my brain had put them in two different compartments, two different trains of thought. Thanks for making the link. 😄
I used to sit on a school friend's back garden wall. He had the good fortune to live on the east coast mainline into Edinburgh. We'd watch awestruck as the beautiful Mallard made it's final approach into Waverley station, at the end of it's journey from King's Cross. It was the inspirational stuff of which young boys lasting memories were made back in the 1950's. So, thank you for the story of Sir Nigel Gresley's duck! That is a fun story - perfectly written and narrated as always!
in the 1980s, Mallard was also name of a fork of the BASIC programming language, named after the locomotive due to its aim of speed and efficiency it was bundled with several models of the Amstrad PCW (which was my family's first computer), on the disc containing a copy of the CP/M operating system along with several other useful utilities, e.g. an assembler/linker, which allowed advanced users to create their own programs
I would be surprised if the grandsons were born when he was alive, let alone remember him. What a ridiculous objection to something that sounds utterly charming and positive to the memorial of the great man.
There was a statue at Waterloo Station of the artist Cuneo. As he was fond of including a mouse in his works there was a very respectful rodent in view. No one ever complained about the vermin. Unfortunately it's not there anymore because of all the "improvements".
A great pity. At least Cuneo's splendid painting of Waterloo Station is permanently on view at the National Railway Museum in York. Maybe the statue should be relocated there.
As it is, most people probably pass the Gresley statue without noticing it. Had he had a mallard at his feet I think some of them would have paid more attention.
Honestly, the idea of having the duck there by his feet... is really creative and charming? I mean it honours one of his very greatest achievements and his love of birds and birdwatching, the thing that inspired the very name of said achievement (and other great works of his - a glamorous and fast locomotive being called 'Seagull' is so funny.) I really don't know what the family mean when they say it's demeaning - it literally reflects a part of his character and honours a part of his legacy. It would have drawn more eyes to the statue (instead of a certain platform marker) and actually would have taught more people about his achievements - as you say he's not a well-known figure generally, and merely asking 'why is there a duck?' would give people an answer that tells them a lot about the man. Aside: it's just me but if I were someone who had a legacy to commemorate, and then had a statue made of me to do so, and that somehow dovetailed (heh) with the likeness of I don't know, pigeons, I would so want some pigeons as a part of my statue. It helps that I love birds, to be fair :P It's also weird that the family had such a sway when they had no actual part in the funding or creation of the statue. I know they're family but - personally - where I've ended up in life has taught me that blood relations by themselves are completely meaningless, and not to get personal but I think that's the case here. The fact that people completely unrelated to him seem to have a better grasp of his character and legacy than his own family should say as much; to be his own family and just fail to grasp that this is quite a nice way to honour the man is kind of a poor reflection on them as family members I think - how can you not know that about your own dad/granddad/uncle etc., and then so confidently assert that lack of knowledge on the public stage? Family is not about blood relation, it's about closeness and understanding, it's about time spent together and memories formed, it's about mutual care and looking out for one another. Many of the people that know me best are my friends; I have no relation to them at all, but they know me far better than my own parents or any of my extended family. Said friends are, in many ways, far more my family than any of my blood relations will ever be. Great video!
Fun Fact: Gresley for a time, stayed at Salisbury Hall, near St Albans, which was also the birthplace of the most versatile WW2 aircraft, the de Havilland Mosquito. the site near the hall is now the de Havilland Aircraft Museum.
The fastest duck ever recorded was a red-breasted merganser duck that attained a top airspeed of 100 mph while being pursued by an airplane. This eclipsed the previous speed record held by a canvasback duck clocked at 72 mph.
It's incredible that a couple of people have such an effect on something which could have been enjoyed by thousands. Presumably no-one in the Gresley family has anything approaching a sense of fun.
I’m glad you gave insight with a detailed story of the the tremendous train design engine. I did a lazy video of King’s Cross station but I said almost nothing about the statue. I taught I’d look him up some other time.
Thank you for clearing up something I have misremembered. I live in the north east so my visits to London are few and far between but this year I have passed through King's Cross six times and I have seen the statue of Sir Nigel Gresley. When I did so I have wondered where the duck was and why it was gone. You see, I have always assumed there was one from day one. I've obviously seen photos that exist of the statue with the duck and assumed it's always been there.
3:34 - Thanks for explaining the inspiration for giving one of the A4's the name "Silver Link." A quote from Sir Walter Scott. An especially appropriate choice, given LNER's importance for connecting England with Scotland.
I definitely think the duck should have been included. I can think of a French drama enthusiast wistfully contemplating the empty space at Sir Nigels feet and seeing a 'mallard imaginaire' in it.
If the man loved ducks enough to name one of his life's greatest achievements after them, you can hardly imagine he would object to having one in a statue of him.
confused american here. if he chose mallard, because of his keen interest in the bird. then how is having a statue of one at his feet demeaning, was it supposed to atop his head? or not featured at all? sorry i'm not trying to run ---a fowl of anyone's feelings. just trying to understand.
Keeping up appearances. He would have loved it. His well off descendants would prefer to be related to the serious engineer in the suit, not the silly duck guy. I hope the pro duck faction keeps working. If we can't have a bit of whimsy, then what is Britain even for?
My favorite Gresley A4 is # 4496, originally named Golden Shuttle. I like to imagine it gliding back and forth across the countryside, like a weaver's shuttle on a giant loom.
well, that might arguable since there are a lot of other really nice locomotives out there like a Bavarian S 3/6, the american PRR S1, the DRG Class 61 for the nicest tank engine or the swiss Crocodile and Churchill Pfeil. But as a single Person, yeah, he had a really good track record
He certainly had more than a touch of the artist about him. My personal taste tends towards the late Victorian/Edwardian era, the SECR D Class of Harry Wainwright (one in York Museum) is stunning, but Gresley's aesthetic was picked apart by his successor, Thompson.
I am a railway nerd and always wondered why there are no statues to Stanier and Bulleid and personal hero George Jackson Churchward, but I didn't know any of that about the duck - very interesting.
There are no statues (that I know of) to J G Robinson, H G Ivatt, Henry Ivatt, Vincent Raven, William Adams, Dugald Drummond, R E L Maunsell, Fowler, Hughes, David Jones, or any other noteworthy locomotive engineers. Though if just one locomotive engineer had to be chosen, then that would most appropriately be Gresley.
@@cr10001 You could make good arguments why Churchward, Stanier, Bulleid et al made greater contributions - Gresley gets a statue because Flying Scotsman and Mallard made him the most famous to the general public. But hey-ho commemorations are usually little to do with contribution - for example there is a statue and the £5 coin dedicated to Mary Seacole whose achievements are debatable and yet for example how many of the general public even know of John Snow - how many people are alive now in one way or other because of his work.
SNG was a wonderful chap who did a lot of very good work. His V2s were possibly the locos that won the war. But certainly he was a really sensible sort who minded the details of his work and had a flair for making things look good. The duck should be there. His top hat is now at the Engine Shed Highley.
Early tomorrow morn I hope to go from King's Cross to Waverley by LNER (hope, because the journey down was disrupted by that bothersome storm. Thanks to LNER staff and the engineers.for getting me here) So there is a triple contact with the story. I'll look out for a duck to make it four. I'll see if I can bump into that statue. Or perhaps a walk around it would be more sensible.
I was at Kings Cross for the trip north - the concourse was a bit more crowded than Jago found it due to the morning cancellations. But Lumo set off anyway without any issues other than having to throw off all the LNER punters first ;-)
I guess I'm a train nerd. I did know the fastest steam train is the Mallard, and it's chief designer was Gresley ! I have even managed to see it at the National Railway Museum in York. I hadn't kept up on the Duck statue argument, so thanks for that ! I'd like to think Nigel Gresley would have found a duck at the foot of his statue amusing, but who knows ? !!!!
As we say in these parts… chuffin marvellous. ( although I’m a Stanier man myself). He was a genius…. The duck should DEFINITELY have been there… for SOOOOO many good reasons
You just reminded me that I learned about The Mallard in Junior School and even drew a picture of it. Didn’t know who it was designed by until today though.
Nice one indeed Jago! This Aussie fan has indeed heard of Sir Nigel Gresley, "Mallard", and the magnificent, still unbroken record for steam traction of 126 mph but not the story of the duck! Personally I think the only objection that could be made these days would be an OH&S one, i.e. that the duck where planned would have rapidly become a serious tripping hazard (no pun intended). Should the matter ever take flight again I'd support the duck being placed on the statue's right shoulder but with wings folded (OH&S again)!
That's Staines station where people on the London-bound side can't see the magnificent train due to a bog standard commuter service in the way. The town's now defunct football team was nicknamed The Swans.
His most numerous class actually wasn't the glamorous Pacifics, or any of his trademark three-cylinder designs, but the humble J39 0-6-0 (289 built over fifteen years), which as it was a not-glamorous freight hauler gets completely forgotten about (particularly as none were preserved, vice about eight A4s)
That adding a duck,would have been,an inside joke,and a visual pun! Probably Sir Nigel,might have been the most happiest at the inauguration,and the railfans,and railroaders,would have been laughing along with Sir Nigel! Such is speculation,however,there is another statue near the Port Authority Bus Terminal in New York City! It's of Jackie Gleason,who played a bus driver,in a long running skit,on his show! There however,is no animal around the monument! Over in Brooklyn,there is also a bus depot,named after Mr. Gleason,and it also has an interesting history,but that's for another time! Thank you,Jago for another sidelight of London,and railroad history!! Happy New Year, and may it be blessed! Thank you 😇 😊!!
An engine named Seagull? I like it. Jocks of the air, those birds, wheeling, spinning, and pulling all sorts of maneuvers apparently for the fun of it -- or because they didn't think before getting into a situation. Looking down from a high hill, their fluttering wings and swiftly-changing flight gives the impression of butterflies until you remember how big they are. Britain gets both the largest and smallest gulls in the world, and I'm talking about the largest. Rapidly flapping wings give an impression of considerable energy use, but they seem to flutter around for hours when they feel like it. In another situation, between the low houses of my former town, they were always swooping dramatically, angling, turning... stunt masters of the air!
I remember the hullabaloo this raised when it was first proposed. I for one, was firmly in the duck camp. I thought the duck would draw attention and get people interested in the statue, and the man, and raise public awareness of who Sir Nigel Gresely was. But the forces of evil conspired against us, and the statue remains duckless.
I think it should have the Duck. It both humanises the man in a charming way, but also represents his influences and achievements in a very clever way.
He loved birds and named his trains after birds. And yet his family objects to birds…
Absolutely agree - very pompous of the grandsons and supporters to kick up a stink. A duck would have been a talking point and, in attracting people to the statue, would have made their grandfather’s achievements better known. Something of an ‘own goal’ by Team Anti-Duck (assuming honouring Sir Nigel is their prime objective).
Absolutely!
Shortsighted objection based on ignorance.
Yes! Ignorance and arrogance!
I agree but there's important question - where to place that duck? I assume to hang up some mallard figures on the opposite side of the concourse and at the line of sight of the eyes of the statue so as anyone who knows the thing could stand abreast Sir Nigel and see his beloved mallard too ;) So both parties - pro- and contra-duck could keep calm and watch or not watch The Duck(s)
Genuine, on-the-day Duck Protester here. We were very careful not to interrupt the unveiling ceremony but most surprised to end up on the local news (we got interviewed but never expected anything to come of it). The frustrating thing about it is that the Gresley Society came up with the idea *and fundraised for it*, NOT the family. So we feel very aggrieved that the mallard was removed. Now, sadly, all the attention is on a certain fictitious platform, and Sir Nigel's likeness is largely ignored.
To be fair. There are way to many statues in London. And most are in this very realistic style, which is not very interesting to begin with
I see the statue every time I visit Kings Cross and I’m glad it’s there so I wouldn’t worry about the other attractions.
Not by me.
I never heard about the duck until today, but I have to say you did amazing work, if anyone ever has cause to make a statue of me I hope they include a duck
If he was, as is clear, a very committed bird-watcher and named his most famous locomotive thus, how could a representation of the real thing at his feet be demeaning? If it had been sculpted dropping 'messages' on his head from above, well, fair enough, but at his feet??? What happened to the family's gratitude that an expensive statue was being erected in the first place???
That the family clearly did not pay for !!
Indeed, his relatives sound humor-impaired there 🦆
The "pro-duck faction" has to be one of the most British things ever.
"Are you in favour of, or are you against the duck? There is no in-between."
To duck or not to duck is the question? Never has there been a more important question in the time humans have roamed the Earth! Quack, quack.
@@mkendallpk4321 To duck or not to duck the question.
@@rogink Quack!
I had duck once i found it very gresley
Duck or duck not, there is no try...
Those of us who contributed financially fully expected that the mallard would be present. There are no shortage of contemporary photographs of Sir Nigel feeding ducks at his home.
Imagine loving birds so much that you introduce it into your most famous work. And your family, still sitting on your coat tails, insist that a duck would be demeaning.
This is why "family" should mean the people you choose to spend time with, and should not by synonymous with "blood relations".
Yes, it’s riduckulous
Quite a fowl state of affairs, and a commentary on why one should fly the coop when needed to nest amongst ACTUAL birds of a feather.
(Puns aside, fine comment, OP. Well typed.)
Imagine that, grousing about a duck
Family of 75 years later, so they probably didn't know him at all. Not really "his family", more "his descendants".
@@jonathanmahoney1672 Completely quackers.
I am pro-duck, as well. Thank you, Mr. Hazzard, for another fine tale. Perhaps we could commission the installation of a duck statue, of course to be placed outside the territorial limit of Gresley's statue. It would be an independent duck and, by utter coincidence, installed nearby.
You prob have no idea how right you are! ;)
🦆
Gresley was, in my eyes, the best locomotive designer we’ve ever had. They should’ve definitely kept the duck, a nice nod to both his greatest achievement and a personal hobby of his.
What were his family thinking? I expect most subscribers here have heard of Gresley, and agree that he deserves a statue, but to most passers-by it's just a statue of some bloke.
But a bloke with a duck? That'd draw the attention this great designer deserves.
How right you are!
When Gresley organised the speed record attempt, he asked the running department for a suitable driver. The running department told Gresley, that they would provide the best driver they could find. Gresley told the running department, that he did not want the best driver, he wanted a fearless driver. Driver Joe Duddington got the job.
I think I have a solution: install a second statue of a duck in a flying pose on the opposite wall, positioned so he's looking at it.
That was my idea too :)) And it could be the great treating point between pro- and anti-duck parties ;)))
Does anyone remember those Plaster Ducks that were popular during the 1960's, which people put on their walls? Three of them in a line and once they were put up, they stayed there for decades. I won a set on a Rifle Range at a funfair at Barry Island in 1963, on a day out with my local Youth Club. Gave them to my mother and they went with her from home to home, including when she went into care with Dementia, in 2013. I've now got the remaining two. I'd be quite happy to donate them to 'The Cause'.
I would prefer a 50ft bronze flying duck forming the canopy above the main platform, with Gresley sat astride it.
I followed the controversy of the duck saga online at the time. In my view the decision of Gresley's grandsons to object to its presence was absolutely pathetic - they should be ashamed of themselves !! 🤬🤬🤬
Well, we could still add the waterfowl after said relatives join the Eternal Duck Hunt.
I think having the duck would have made the statue have more of a talking point, shame it got left out
Yeah as it is it will be just another statue that most people pass by without a second glance
And given the fact the Sir Nigel was fond of birds (and especially. the mallard as it seems) I’m sure he would have approved.
Someone would try to duck-nap the duck ?
Interesting video, i wasn't aware of the 'duck' controversy, but i think the idea of a mallard as part of the statue was a brilliant idea, and those who thought it 'wrong' missed atrick.
I was definitely in the pro duck camp at the time. These days, if I have a moment to spare, I always give his statue a good buff of its nose, hoping to start a tradition of rubbing it for good luck in your train journey. I imagine it gaining a shiny lustre over time and repeated passenger buffing. Kindof as a repost to his surviving family: you denied us a duck, here, now he’s got a shiny nose. Petty but fun.
Thanks!
And thank you!
This is the first I've heard of this controversy, and within two seconds I've decided to join the pro-duck faction. Of course I don't know what the specific arguments of the family were. But I also know that I can't speak for any of my family members who died eighty years ago, and it would be presumptuous of me to try and act like I was the sole authority on them. Plus, it's fun.
Terrific episode. Intelligence isn't particularly hereditary. The mallard is faster than the eagle in level flight - and maintains that speed for a great migration! If any marvel of evolution looks modest (to townies), that just makes it more English. Sir Gresley will be disappointed that his estate killed off every last vestige of the natural world. Bringing joy and variety to the concourse, a mallard's back would have been polished by many small hands; and appreciated by curious minds.
Gresley's Mallard was all it was quacked up to be, but personally I couldn't give a duck one way or the other about whether the statue has been fowled. 🦆
Oh, you.....!!!
Perhaps they were afraid of accidently honouring Henry Fowler.
@richardharrold9736 Nah. Mallard had a known hot running baring issue. There wasn't time to fix it fully before the run so they packed it with grease and went ahead. No permanent damage was done, and a follow up run was planned for 1939/40 but was cancelled by the outbreak of war.
As for the Germans and their nationalised Deutsche Reichsbahn; it's poor performance prior to and during WWII probably shortened the war for the allies by a couple of years 😁 .
Meanwhile, the A4's - and the Big Four's Locomotives in general - gave sterling wartime service, and most surrvived it too.
@richardharrold9736 Can't say I agree with any of your assersions (and I can cite sources for why if asked), but have a nice day all the same.
Possibly the most British argument I’ve heard of in a long time - perfect quackery - sorry, I couldn’t help myself!
He was interested in and indeed cared about ducks. The only thing that stops something that was very particular to Gresley being immortalised with him, is a sense of pompous preservation of self-importance.
I feel it is extraordinarily improbable that Gresley himself would have disapproved of the duck being there. But may well have been extremely demanding about the quality and accuracy of the duck’s representation.
Clearly, the duck should be there.
One could say: No ducks were given.
...
...I'll see myself out.
Also, I love the sentence "After a childhood and some education..." for some reason.
Some…foul language there. Truly you have gone quackers.
You quack me up!
@@YetAnotherGeorgeth He'll be up before the beak...
Erm, I gave a flying duck, does that count for nowt?
@@eric4562 such fowl language! Who taught you, Drake?
Well done getting footage of the statue, every time I’ve tried to take a picture of it there is a constant stream of people standing right in front of it!
We now need Banksy to come along and “deposit” a suitable Mallard 👍😀
Ducklings! That way, the 'children' would be harmed, and no person of conscience would harm CHILDREN, would they? XD LOL
@@BigBlack81 Doesnt every 0-4-0 Shunter want to grow up to be a 4-6-2 streamlined Pacific
@@creamwobbly The cut of your jib is amazing here, fine commentor. Well typed. XD LOL
Not a chance in that location!
Isn’t that more Damian Hurst’s style?
I am one of the pro duck faction people who are fans of railways would know the meaning of the duck. Sir N G was a great man.
Tangentially, the Mallard plays a brief but starring role in Patrick Stewart’s autobiography. As a boy, he was an avid trainspotter, and an up close encounter with the Mallard on a childhood trip was a cherished childhood memory for him.
Personally, I think his finest hour was with the A4's. They were, and the survivors, are ducking fantastic pieces of engineering!
Not many locomotives come in about 8x11 inches.
They also have a shape remarkably similar to some modern high (ish) speed electrics :) (especially the Pendolinos)
For a long time I thought that a mallard must have been a very special bird and later found that it was the, sometimes scruffy, bird that tried to snatch the bread out of your fingers.
Expectations: Grand, majestic bird
Reality: d u c c
Having spent a lot of my childhood around a duckpond (Barnes, in London), I can empathise with Gresely's love of this endearing bird. Bold, striking plumage, and a bit mad, going down to feed them was (for a while at least) better than television.
It's little wonder that world peace Is such a remote prospect.
Our physics teacher was really into steam- locomotives and paddle steamers. He knew who the Lucy Ashton was and told us about Gresley as well as Ohm, Boyle, Kelvin etc.
I think he said that Gresley was born somewhere near what is now the Commonwealth Pool. I may be wrong though.
I always thought Gresley looked liked Nigel Bruce who played Watson to Basil Rathbone's Sherlock.
I find the duck reference intriguing. It's just the sort or germ of an idea for an oblique reference via, say, an occasional character, such as the Duck Man in the Discworld novels. Terry Pratchett had just the sort of mind and technical interests and abilities bubbling under the surface that would do such a thing, which is just my opinion based in suspicions and no evidence whatsoever. I've never found him explaining Gresley's conjugated valve gear for example.
(Sir Walter Scott was no different. His house had flushing toilets, underfloor heating and a gas generating plant. He owned or edited The Edinburgh Annual Review and certainly seems to have had more than a passing interest in Henry Bell's Comet, the first successful steamship in Europe as it is quoted from a lot in Bell's biography. But I digress and apologise. Neither Scott nor Bell knew anything about conjugated valve gear).
Another piece of fascinating minutiae pulled from the back of the cupboard and dusted off expertly by Jago.
Yet another feather to add to his illustrious cap.
Gresley was a brilliant engineer, but he also had Oliver Bullied and Arthur Peppercorn working for him as assistants, and was friends with André Chapelon.
A veritable A-team of elite railway engineers.
Dear aw34565, he also had Thompson, his successor, and inheritor of a railway struggling under wartime difficulties . Thompson was delegated by Gresley to overseas the rebuilt GER B12/3 with Dia99a boiler, which showed Gresley's confidence in Thompson's ability. Gresley was brilliant, but equally importantly, also had a knack for nurturing talent for the future, both Harrison and TCB Miller were xLNER.
A’s hire A’s. B’s hire C’s.
now off to Euston to look at Matthew Flinders' cat...
if you want to know what's contentious about that... they dug up his burial because of HS2... Flinders that is, not the cat... well you never know...
Greasly out for a duck! Fancy his family getting they're feathers ruffled like that. 😂😊
+1 for the duck.
The Woodhead electrics, which I remember well as I live not far away from it, looked great in black, ok in green and terrible in blue.
My Once favourite A4 was Bitterne. I have missed it a couple of times , it was shy , twice.
That story certainly quacked me up.
So long as Gresley is looking up, we can imagine he is seeing a bird racing above the horizon, and dreaming of building a machine that can all but fly over the rails.
That gave me chills lol
@@ashley-owo Thank you very much! -- I'll remember that when I doubt my abilities as a filmmaker.
Jago, for no other reason than curiosity, I've just been looking at the width of the Japanese Shinkansen track width and was surprised to see it's the same standard 1,435 mm (4 ft 8+1⁄2 in) width as we have here in the UK, despite it always looking so much wider on video.
On further digging, I discovered that it's the loading gauge of the trains themselves that are wider - shinkansen trains can be 3.4 m wide and 4.5 m tall compared to the UK's standard width of 2.80 m.
This made me ponder....If it's not going to go any further North, why not pull out all the stops with the infrastructure, have Shinkansen-sized rolling stock for HS2, and make for a truly unrivalled fast service between London and Birmingham?
The track is going to be, for the majority of the route, arrow straight already, and could cut the journey time between London and Birmingham right down.
The Shinkansen can do Tokyo to Nagoya (178 Miles) in 40 minutes.
As the crow flies, London to Birmingham is 101 Miles, or around 120 Miles by road, so it could theoretically be done in as little as 30 minutes or less!
I really had nothing better to do tonight than look all that up!! lol
HS2 is being built to the UIC GC. This is the modern European standard loading gauge which is roughly equivalent to that used by the Japanese high speed lines and works fine for the French TGV trains which manage 320-340kmh. Anything else would be sheer lunacy. The rolling stock itself is being built to the British loading since it will need to run beyond HS2 (a reasonable compromise IMO). There's nothing precluding later larger trains if the demand is shown to be there. There's being a lot of stupidity surrounding HS2 but the engineers building the thing know what there doing.
The issue here is not so much loading gauge, which as others have pointed out is similar, but what HS2 was originally designed to do.
The goal wasn't to get from London to Birmingham as fast as possible, it was supposed to connect the North of England to London via Birmingham with a high speed route capable and take long distance passengers off existing and highly congested rail line, allowing for more local services and freight across the country.
Because of this it was useful to have HS2 connect to regular rail lines, to prevent anyone who wanted to go up and down the country from somewhere that wasn't on HS2 to somewhere that also isn't having to change trains three times.
That meant that HS2 was built to a bigger loading gauge for the sake of future proofing, it trains had to be able to negotiate regular tracks too and - at least for now - those tracks have very small tight clearances.
It's a good job too, with the cancellation of ½ - ¾ of HS2 trains capable of running only between London and Bimhgam would be of rather limited use.
A thought on the passing of David McCallum, actor, who played Dr Mallard on NCIS. There was a model the the Mallard engine in his "office" (the autopsy room) during the show. If you don't know him, he looked like Illya Kuryakin.
At the time of the record, Gresley and the LNER stated a maximum speed of 125mph, as that speed was actually maintained. Mallard touched 126mph for approx one second, so they didnt feel that speed deserved a mention.
Now that’s my kind of protest.
I’d love to show up to a railway station with a handful of rubber ducks to protest infront of a statue one of the great railway legends.
👏LET NIGEL HAVE HIS DUCKIE 👏
The man was so into birdwatching he named an entire class of locos after different bird species. Having a mallard included in the statue would have been the *perfect* way to memorialise him.
Great video. Strange, I have always admired the locomotive and the Duck for different reasons. Somehow my brain had put them in two different compartments, two different trains of thought. Thanks for making the link. 😄
I used to sit on a school friend's back garden wall. He had the good fortune to live on the east coast mainline into Edinburgh. We'd watch awestruck as the beautiful Mallard made it's final approach into Waverley station, at the end of it's journey from King's Cross. It was the inspirational stuff of which young boys lasting memories were made back in the 1950's. So, thank you for the story of Sir Nigel Gresley's duck! That is a fun story - perfectly written and narrated as always!
in the 1980s, Mallard was also name of a fork of the BASIC programming language, named after the locomotive due to its aim of speed and efficiency
it was bundled with several models of the Amstrad PCW (which was my family's first computer), on the disc containing a copy of the CP/M operating system along with several other useful utilities, e.g. an assembler/linker, which allowed advanced users to create their own programs
I would be surprised if the grandsons were born when he was alive, let alone remember him. What a ridiculous objection to something that sounds utterly charming and positive to the memorial of the great man.
There was a statue at Waterloo Station of the artist Cuneo. As he was fond of including a mouse in his works there was a very respectful rodent in view.
No one ever complained about the vermin.
Unfortunately it's not there anymore because of all the "improvements".
A great pity. At least Cuneo's splendid painting of Waterloo Station is permanently on view at the National Railway Museum in York. Maybe the statue should be relocated there.
I predict, that after this offering from Jago, a family of Ducks/Ducklings, will appear at Sir Nigel's feet.
The Gresley family have the sense of humour of a bronze mallard.
Foolish people. 😊❤❤❤😊
As it is, most people probably pass the Gresley statue without noticing it. Had he had a mallard at his feet I think some of them would have paid more attention.
Honestly, the idea of having the duck there by his feet... is really creative and charming? I mean it honours one of his very greatest achievements and his love of birds and birdwatching, the thing that inspired the very name of said achievement (and other great works of his - a glamorous and fast locomotive being called 'Seagull' is so funny.) I really don't know what the family mean when they say it's demeaning - it literally reflects a part of his character and honours a part of his legacy. It would have drawn more eyes to the statue (instead of a certain platform marker) and actually would have taught more people about his achievements - as you say he's not a well-known figure generally, and merely asking 'why is there a duck?' would give people an answer that tells them a lot about the man.
Aside: it's just me but if I were someone who had a legacy to commemorate, and then had a statue made of me to do so, and that somehow dovetailed (heh) with the likeness of I don't know, pigeons, I would so want some pigeons as a part of my statue. It helps that I love birds, to be fair :P
It's also weird that the family had such a sway when they had no actual part in the funding or creation of the statue. I know they're family but - personally - where I've ended up in life has taught me that blood relations by themselves are completely meaningless, and not to get personal but I think that's the case here. The fact that people completely unrelated to him seem to have a better grasp of his character and legacy than his own family should say as much; to be his own family and just fail to grasp that this is quite a nice way to honour the man is kind of a poor reflection on them as family members I think - how can you not know that about your own dad/granddad/uncle etc., and then so confidently assert that lack of knowledge on the public stage?
Family is not about blood relation, it's about closeness and understanding, it's about time spent together and memories formed, it's about mutual care and looking out for one another. Many of the people that know me best are my friends; I have no relation to them at all, but they know me far better than my own parents or any of my extended family. Said friends are, in many ways, far more my family than any of my blood relations will ever be.
Great video!
Fun Fact: Gresley for a time, stayed at Salisbury Hall, near St Albans, which was also the birthplace of the most versatile WW2 aircraft, the de Havilland Mosquito. the site near the hall is now the de Havilland Aircraft Museum.
Your videos just keep on getting better and better.
The fastest duck ever recorded was a red-breasted merganser duck that attained a top airspeed of 100 mph while being pursued by an airplane. This eclipsed the previous speed record held by a canvasback duck clocked at 72 mph.
It's incredible that a couple of people have such an effect on something which could have been enjoyed by thousands. Presumably no-one in the Gresley family has anything approaching a sense of fun.
I’m glad you gave insight with a detailed story of the the tremendous train design engine. I did a lazy video of King’s Cross station but I said almost nothing about the statue. I taught I’d look him up some other time.
Thank you for clearing up something I have misremembered. I live in the north east so my visits to London are few and far between but this year I have passed through King's Cross six times and I have seen the statue of Sir Nigel Gresley. When I did so I have wondered where the duck was and why it was gone. You see, I have always assumed there was one from day one. I've obviously seen photos that exist of the statue with the duck and assumed it's always been there.
Gresley’s engines are my personal favourites. The proportions of his designs seem to be plucked straight from the platonic ideal of “steam loco”!
To my mind, Gresley's engines were always the best-proportioned and most elegant of any steam locomotives ever built.
Good to see that you don't duck a controversial subject Jago, excellent video.
3:34 - Thanks for explaining the inspiration for giving one of the A4's the name "Silver Link." A quote from Sir Walter Scott. An especially appropriate choice, given LNER's importance for connecting England with Scotland.
making my first visit to kings cross ever soon, and will be keeping an eye out for the spot where there used to be a duck :) thanks for these videos!
The Life and Times of Sir Nigel Gresley, was my dad's specialist subject when he went on Mastermind.
I definitely think the duck should have been included. I can think of a French drama enthusiast wistfully contemplating the empty space at Sir Nigels feet and seeing a 'mallard imaginaire' in it.
"a fowl deed..." 😂😂😂 You sir, are a national treasure.
It is difficult to open tinned french duck from Fortnum's , indeed its CanHard
I have no idea what position was proposed for the duck, but I picture it wings raised, menacing anyone who dares to call a mallard undignified.
I just watched a train video to Hull, and the narrative mentioned the Mallard. Now I understand a bit more. Thank you!
Robinson gave the railway industry and history a magnanimous gift when he proposed Sir Nigel as the CME of the LNER in his stead.
Great video. I will have a look next time I'm there, and maybe take a mallard along 😀
If the man loved ducks enough to name one of his life's greatest achievements after them, you can hardly imagine he would object to having one in a statue of him.
You always teach me more with every one of your presentations. Thank you, sir.
confused american here. if he chose mallard, because of his keen interest in the bird. then how is having a statue of one at his feet demeaning, was it supposed to atop his head? or not featured at all? sorry i'm not trying to run ---a fowl of anyone's feelings. just trying to understand.
Keeping up appearances. He would have loved it. His well off descendants would prefer to be related to the serious engineer in the suit, not the silly duck guy. I hope the pro duck faction keeps working. If we can't have a bit of whimsy, then what is Britain even for?
Most people commenting here, presumably mainly British, seem to agree with you. We want ducks 🦆
My favorite Gresley A4 is # 4496, originally named Golden Shuttle. I like to imagine it gliding back and forth across the countryside, like a weaver's shuttle on a giant loom.
Who agrees that Gresley designed the best looking locomotives ever?
well, that might arguable since there are a lot of other really nice locomotives out there like a Bavarian S 3/6, the american PRR S1, the DRG Class 61 for the nicest tank engine or the swiss Crocodile and Churchill Pfeil.
But as a single Person, yeah, he had a really good track record
He certainly had more than a touch of the artist about him. My personal taste tends towards the late Victorian/Edwardian era, the SECR D Class of Harry Wainwright (one in York Museum) is stunning, but Gresley's aesthetic was picked apart by his successor, Thompson.
I am a railway nerd and always wondered why there are no statues to Stanier and Bulleid and personal hero George Jackson Churchward, but I didn't know any of that about the duck - very interesting.
And Charles Collett apparently didn't even get a headstone on his grave despite being the designer of some of the greatest GWR classes.
No duck, no statue...
@@Pesmog that was his own request, he wrote letters, twice stating he wanted no money spent on a stone
There are no statues (that I know of) to J G Robinson, H G Ivatt, Henry Ivatt, Vincent Raven, William Adams, Dugald Drummond, R E L Maunsell, Fowler, Hughes, David Jones, or any other noteworthy locomotive engineers. Though if just one locomotive engineer had to be chosen, then that would most appropriately be Gresley.
@@cr10001 You could make good arguments why Churchward, Stanier, Bulleid et al made greater contributions - Gresley gets a statue because Flying Scotsman and Mallard made him the most famous to the general public. But hey-ho commemorations are usually little to do with contribution - for example there is a statue and the £5 coin dedicated to Mary Seacole whose achievements are debatable and yet for example how many of the general public even know of John Snow - how many people are alive now in one way or other because of his work.
SNG was a wonderful chap who did a lot of very good work.
His V2s were possibly the locos that won the war. But certainly he was a really sensible sort who minded the details of his work and had a flair for making things look good.
The duck should be there.
His top hat is now at the Engine Shed Highley.
“A fowl deed” - 😅 that’s class-A punnage.
Brought back very vivid memories of childhood visits to the London transport museum, Thankyou!
Early tomorrow morn I hope to go from King's Cross to Waverley by LNER (hope, because the journey down was disrupted by that bothersome storm. Thanks to LNER staff and the engineers.for getting me here)
So there is a triple contact with the story. I'll look out for a duck to make it four.
I'll see if I can bump into that statue. Or perhaps a walk around it would be more sensible.
I was at Kings Cross for the trip north - the concourse was a bit more crowded than Jago found it due to the morning cancellations. But Lumo set off anyway without any issues other than having to throw off all the LNER punters first ;-)
so happy I have notifs on for you ♥️
i never thought of looking up the meaning of the name Mallard. Thanks Jago.
So a duck was commissioned, but not used , who picks up the bill ?
Thanks Jago & wishing you a Happy New Year !
I guess I'm a train nerd. I did know the fastest steam train is the Mallard, and it's chief designer was Gresley !
I have even managed to see it at the National Railway Museum in York.
I hadn't kept up on the Duck statue argument, so thanks for that !
I'd like to think Nigel Gresley would have found a duck at the foot of his statue amusing, but who knows ? !!!!
As we say in these parts… chuffin marvellous. ( although I’m a Stanier man myself). He was a genius…. The duck should DEFINITELY have been there… for SOOOOO many good reasons
There's also a commemorative plaque of Mr G at Hadley Wood Sation, where he lived for a time. Unveiled by Michael Portillo, who was once our local MP
You just reminded me that I learned about The Mallard in Junior School and even drew a picture of it. Didn’t know who it was designed by until today though.
Jago. Thank you for your fascinating and informative videos. May I wish you and your family a very happy and healthy 2024. Pete
Nice one indeed Jago! This Aussie fan has indeed heard of Sir Nigel Gresley, "Mallard", and the magnificent, still unbroken record for steam traction of 126 mph but not the story of the duck! Personally I think the only objection that could be made these days would be an OH&S one, i.e. that the duck where planned would have rapidly become a serious tripping hazard (no pun intended). Should the matter ever take flight again I'd support the duck being placed on the statue's right shoulder but with wings folded (OH&S again)!
That's Staines station where people on the London-bound side can't see the magnificent train due to a bog standard commuter service in the way. The town's now defunct football team was nicknamed The Swans.
Another well told tale! Happy New Year Jago.
I wouldnt poo-poo the idea of calling a locomotive Seagull, though it might be better for a Fowler
Duck or no duck, its a fitting tribute to a great engineer. Have a happy new year!
Happy New Year Jago. Many thanks for the great videos of 2023
His most numerous class actually wasn't the glamorous Pacifics, or any of his trademark three-cylinder designs, but the humble J39 0-6-0 (289 built over fifteen years), which as it was a not-glamorous freight hauler gets completely forgotten about (particularly as none were preserved, vice about eight A4s)
That adding a duck,would have been,an inside joke,and a visual pun! Probably Sir Nigel,might have been the most happiest at the inauguration,and the railfans,and railroaders,would have been laughing along with Sir Nigel! Such is speculation,however,there is another statue near the Port Authority Bus Terminal in New York City! It's of Jackie Gleason,who played a bus driver,in a long running skit,on his show! There however,is no animal around the monument! Over in Brooklyn,there is also a bus depot,named after Mr. Gleason,and it also has an interesting history,but that's for another time! Thank you,Jago for another sidelight of London,and railroad history!! Happy New Year, and may it be blessed! Thank you 😇 😊!!
An engine named Seagull? I like it. Jocks of the air, those birds, wheeling, spinning, and pulling all sorts of maneuvers apparently for the fun of it -- or because they didn't think before getting into a situation. Looking down from a high hill, their fluttering wings and swiftly-changing flight gives the impression of butterflies until you remember how big they are. Britain gets both the largest and smallest gulls in the world, and I'm talking about the largest. Rapidly flapping wings give an impression of considerable energy use, but they seem to flutter around for hours when they feel like it. In another situation, between the low houses of my former town, they were always swooping dramatically, angling, turning... stunt masters of the air!
I remember the hullabaloo this raised when it was first proposed. I for one, was firmly in the duck camp. I thought the duck would draw attention and get people interested in the statue, and the man, and raise public awareness of who Sir Nigel Gresely was. But the forces of evil conspired against us, and the statue remains duckless.