At this point I am wondering if Sean Franklin has a day job... He seems to be judging in a high % of comp videos from around the world.... I am envious :)
Hi Jamie, Have you done a coffee video on scoring systems? I'd be interested in your take. It looks like the scoring here doesn't use doubles and afterblows are worth full points. Currently, the system in my area (Los Angeles) counts afterblows as only -1 to the attackers score and simultaneous strikes (doubles) as "no exchange." However, 3 doubles and both fighters count the match as a loss. It's a pretty common system around here, maybe you're familiar. I've been chatting with clubmates about a simpler system that counts afterblows as doubles ("no exchange"). Only "clean" strikes count (encouraging defense) but both fighters record a loss after a certain (larger then current standard) number of doubles--maybe 5. Of course every scoring system has pros and cons and can be metagamed but do you have a favorite system? What are the pros and cons of your local system?
This is a fascinating topic that I can't complete in one video so you've helped me come up with the next few ;) I heavily dislike hard penalties on doubles. It comes from an overly simplistic view that all doubles are caused by two fencers attacking without care, where as in reality many are from relatively small errirs in technique or judgement (eg a counter thrust 2cm off ideal or 1/4 second late is a double). I also don't see any "moral" difference between getting hit cleanly, in a double or in an afterblow: i got hit, that was bad,,regardless of the test l rest. Having any double result in 0 score is worth exploring. It will also reduce a lot of judging errors as target can be hard to determine in those exchanges. My preferred solution is full scoring, but this requires you to think about other aspects for it to work. For this, both fencers gain the same points they would if hit cleanly. If you then pair that with a score cap or exchange limit, every double brings you closer to the natural end of the fight. If you then also pair that with hits received or points difference affecting rankings, it also then reduces the maximum score they can get. Downside? Only works in pools where standings matter more than wins, so if you want it to work you need a format without elims. You're right in general though that all rule sets are gameable and have issues - the best thing is to try it out and see what happens. I'll make a few videos to share my experiences of different rulesets.
@@PhilippoVadi Excellent, looking forward to the scoring mini series. Does Britain use HEMA scorecard? (Their formula for weighted scoring could be a whole video) It's too convenient around here to not get used but no organizer can change the weighted system on the backend--as far as I'm aware--and accumulating doubles within that software is BRUTAL to final standings. As in exponentially negative, so it makes doubles troublesome. A clubmate likes "weighted" or full-point afterblows so it's interesting to know it already exists elsewhere but it never occurred to us to remove doubles. As you mentioned, I like the alternative of only doubles (zero points) for it's ease of judging but I agree, doubles shouldn't be too punitive--though I do like a double loss after a certain amount of suicidal exchanges, haha. Simple scoring, judging, and somewhat "historical." But -1 afterblows make no sense to me. A lot to cover!
@ABetcetera yeah we do use scorecard. Since 2018 Wessex League, Albion Cup and more London HEMA open all used it. And Summer Sword Shenanigans, but that was an internal event. It's fantastic. If there's something you want to do in it and can't just email Sean - he has added features I've asked for multiple times and is happy to do it
Also the effect doubles have on final standing entirely depends on the option you select. Wessex/Albion uses wins|plus/minus (first sorts on wins, then point difference). If it had doubles, they wouldn't have any effect. Other options do but that's entirely organiser choice not the software
At this point I am wondering if Sean Franklin has a day job... He seems to be judging in a high % of comp videos from around the world.... I am envious :)
Hi Jamie,
Have you done a coffee video on scoring systems? I'd be interested in your take.
It looks like the scoring here doesn't use doubles and afterblows are worth full points. Currently, the system in my area (Los Angeles) counts afterblows as only -1 to the attackers score and simultaneous strikes (doubles) as "no exchange." However, 3 doubles and both fighters count the match as a loss. It's a pretty common system around here, maybe you're familiar.
I've been chatting with clubmates about a simpler system that counts afterblows as doubles ("no exchange"). Only "clean" strikes count (encouraging defense) but both fighters record a loss after a certain (larger then current standard) number of doubles--maybe 5.
Of course every scoring system has pros and cons and can be metagamed but do you have a favorite system? What are the pros and cons of your local system?
This is a fascinating topic that I can't complete in one video so you've helped me come up with the next few ;)
I heavily dislike hard penalties on doubles. It comes from an overly simplistic view that all doubles are caused by two fencers attacking without care, where as in reality many are from relatively small errirs in technique or judgement (eg a counter thrust 2cm off ideal or 1/4 second late is a double). I also don't see any "moral" difference between getting hit cleanly, in a double or in an afterblow: i got hit, that was bad,,regardless of the test l rest.
Having any double result in 0 score is worth exploring. It will also reduce a lot of judging errors as target can be hard to determine in those exchanges.
My preferred solution is full scoring, but this requires you to think about other aspects for it to work. For this, both fencers gain the same points they would if hit cleanly. If you then pair that with a score cap or exchange limit, every double brings you closer to the natural end of the fight. If you then also pair that with hits received or points difference affecting rankings, it also then reduces the maximum score they can get. Downside? Only works in pools where standings matter more than wins, so if you want it to work you need a format without elims.
You're right in general though that all rule sets are gameable and have issues - the best thing is to try it out and see what happens. I'll make a few videos to share my experiences of different rulesets.
@@PhilippoVadi Excellent, looking forward to the scoring mini series.
Does Britain use HEMA scorecard? (Their formula for weighted scoring could be a whole video) It's too convenient around here to not get used but no organizer can change the weighted system on the backend--as far as I'm aware--and accumulating doubles within that software is BRUTAL to final standings. As in exponentially negative, so it makes doubles troublesome.
A clubmate likes "weighted" or full-point afterblows so it's interesting to know it already exists elsewhere but it never occurred to us to remove doubles. As you mentioned, I like the alternative of only doubles (zero points) for it's ease of judging but I agree, doubles shouldn't be too punitive--though I do like a double loss after a certain amount of suicidal exchanges, haha. Simple scoring, judging, and somewhat "historical." But -1 afterblows make no sense to me.
A lot to cover!
@ABetcetera yeah we do use scorecard. Since 2018 Wessex League, Albion Cup and more London HEMA open all used it. And Summer Sword Shenanigans, but that was an internal event. It's fantastic.
If there's something you want to do in it and can't just email Sean - he has added features I've asked for multiple times and is happy to do it
Also the effect doubles have on final standing entirely depends on the option you select. Wessex/Albion uses wins|plus/minus (first sorts on wins, then point difference). If it had doubles, they wouldn't have any effect. Other options do but that's entirely organiser choice not the software
@@PhilippoVadi What a shame. That makes me even less of a fan of the scoring systems in my neck of the woods.