Emotion drives the character; plot provides the road. A well-designed plot leads to a destination through language (dialogue and visuals) that provides the vehicle. Hopefully, your audience is on the journey too. Well done Matthew in tackling difficult subjects in a relatable way.
To rely on a structure or plot seems limiting during the creative process but applying it in the editing or proofreading process sounds so natural…great talk! Profound!
These are the two ways I use all these videos/books about storytelling craft: 1. I listen/read as much of it as I can, knowing I can never consciously recall all of it, even with the notes I take. However, I believe that memory is a funny, ethereal, substance when we involve the subconscious. All these words are in my mind somewhere (I believe) and when I’m writing my novel, I like to think that the subconscious pulls on what’s relevant for the story from all those thousands of suggestions and videos I’ve watched, and it helps me know what/how to write next. 2. As he said in the beginning, I usually try to go back to the books and videos only after I’ve finished the first draft of my novel in order to work on editing for structure. Most times the subconscious has already helped in creating a structurally sound book, but it’s always nice to consciously acknowledge that the beats fall into a good rhythm, for peace of mind. Thank you Film Courage for helping me fill my ethereal memory banks with all this useful information on writing craft.
The one thing that I feel is the character, the protogonist, is so very important, as Mathew Kalil mentioned, whatever we are saying must resonate, not for money but it must give the message that we want to convey, so that it changes the audience, their thinking, and they must remember the name of the character. Thanks FC for the wonderful videos that are so substantial.
This was such a rich and helpful interview. Thank you guys. Goodness, I'm really realizing how I had structure introduced to me and how I had thought about it has been a big reason behind my writing frustration. Listening to this has helped reorganize my thoughts in a much more freeing way. Thank you again.
I agree. When I hear people talking about plot and story structure, it's like they've all bought into one way to tell a story when there's actually a million ways to tell a story. I want to see a million different ways. I don't want to see movie template after movie template after movie template.
I got an idea, create a format for character sheets, write your story using D&D rules. This removes plot armor, drives story development, creates unforeseen events.
I subscribe to plot and character mutually driving each other. On structure, Film Courage if you could ever ask one of your guests about why The Lost Boys works SO well with quite the passive protagonist in Michael, that would be awesome to hear the responses. Just watched the movie yesterday for the 1st time and loved it and found the unconventional structure refreshing. There are even times in the movie when Michael is VISIBLY passive (literally asleep) while his little brother carries the story. I still loved the movie. It worked.
Perhaps he's, in a way, a stealth or crytp protagonist? This gives me some confidence. My Protagonist is somewhat mysterious( the other main characters have more lines) .My Pro though drives the plot in a mata way ( below the ice burg) He comes into his own though towards the end. He has the most potential for character growth. The climatic scene involves him and the antagonist fighting it out with the universe the stakes.
So plot is the rhythm to which we beat the kettle with. And to beat it you still need Soul for the resonance to vibe through. But in the end it is still a fool's prayer to the starry scary night of blue.
I'm going with this guy's advice. I'm just gonna write and then review for those weak structures, reinforce them using the knowledge gained by story structures (but only as a guide, not set in stone), and if there are any weeds in my garden story - get rid of them. Thanks a bunch! Now I am just concentrate on pure writing instead of constantly thinking about structure!!
I was thinking, "Taking a sledgehammer to your story? That's a beautiful metaphor, but how do I do that? I'm sure he's not gonna go further into that." And then you asked the exact same question, so thank you!
He makes good points. I'm shocked people don't understand what 'saying. Plot drives the story but your characters need to be developed more than your plot. If you're so focused on plot then you're project will feel off. Like a cookie cutter of every other thing out there. Character and plot are linked, but character is more important. You could have a paper thin plot, but if your characters are well developed it won't matter. But inversly if you have no plot, or it isn't enough to motivate the characters, then there is no desire from the audience to see what happens next. We can see how the new star wars trilogy is so unfocused on plot and characters that there is a resounding meh and hate from audiences. Sure people will go see it, but more as a spectacle instead of a film you watch over and over.
Thank you for asking about the sledgehammer. It was a bit of a vague comment. Seemingly, this theory doesn't survive the sledgehammer, or at least his language failed him, here. I do like the idea of resonance. It's about being an artist. And not forgetting to be an artist, first and foremost.
What I’m trying to write at the moment is pure character/culture which is mad frustrating. I have tons of concepts with no plot / through line to tie the story together neatly. This just causes me to be stuck for a long ass time
I feel he's equally as contradictory as his example. No, don't start with plot rules, then apply plot rules later and see if your story has them and they're strong enough... He seems like a very kind individual with a balanced viewpoint, but that he complained about one then appeared to do similar stood out to me. (Apparently, I'm the shouty story guy(mainly on a previous video)) I can relate to not always being able to find the words. My language abilities fail me. "Not always" hit the resonance... does any method? Also will depend on the individual writer doing any method and different stories with resonate with different people.
To me the definition of art is a creative work that creates an emotional connection between the creator and the viewer. The strength of the emotional connection and to a lesser degree the number of people that emotionally connect with it, are what measure the quality of the art. The two parts of what goes into making art are emotional honesty and craftsmanship. If you have great craftsmanship without emotional honesty you merely have a "product", which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's not art. If you have something that is extremely honest without great craftsmanship you have something closer to fanfiction or a hobby. If you have something that is emotionally honest and has great craftsmanship but doesn't make an emotional connection with viewers? Sorry, it's not great art. But in that one case there is also a loophole, which is time. Some works of art that are not well received upon release can gain an emotional connection with viewers years, decades or even centuries later. But it has to be well crafted. If it's emotionally honest but poorly crafted you are probably out of luck. Lastly the difference between "art" and "product" is not a zero sum, all or nothing type of thing. It is a sliding scale that depends on how much emotional honesty is left after re-writes, re-works, re-shoots or anything else that is done to appease viewers of the work.
Matthew's approach never really resonated ;) with me until this segment. Probably more because of where I'm at in my script, and not because he wasn't speaking truth.
"the only thing you need to know... what's happening NOW in your story should not be as exciting or as interesting as what may or may not happen LATER ... so something's happening later, and it's drawing the story forward. And it's that thing that's happening later that you need to put in your plot somewhere... so you need to set it up so that something's gonna pay off later, and that'll drive the story forward, and that'll keep people watching."
Having a structure but it has to be adaptable, structure is foundation, a house without foundation falls apart, but once foundation is there you can really build any type of house you want
It's dangerous to point at a famous and successful person and say "they didn't follow this boring old formula" because it suggests that the person hearing you and thinking they, too, can ignore the formula. Just because one person won a fortune in the lottery by playing their birthday doesn't mean you will.
It's worth (one more time) admitting up front, I'm but a GM (Game Master for those who don't know)... SO most of the time I deal in really the same kind of storytelling that started it all... Back when we (humans) were still traveling in family units and clans to follow game migrations, someone at the campfire would take up the storytelling... It entertained kids so they didn't wander off alone at night. AND when the story was being told, the kids would (of course as kids do) interrupt with questions, about this creature, or that character... and the storyteller had to either answer the questions to move on... or tell the kid to quiet down (and we know how well that works)... SO today, I deal with story structures that look more like steaming piles of pasta slung at the wall than anything otherwise graphically feasible... My one rule? Everything MUST have the dramatic license to happen. We start with Characters. Done well, those Characters are not only functional for the story, but "buyable" as in believable to the rest of us at the Table. Then of course, I start introducing Problems, and Constraints to the world around them, and the Characters do stuff (you don't even want the list of feasible things there... Players are an unpredictable and self destructive lot)... AND somehow a lot of great fun comes about and we have a story to be retold for years to come... PROVIDED, I help get my Players' stories extracted well... BUT it all has to make sense. If it doesn't make some kind of sense... It's no longer a functioning story. Do that, and you can pick and choose as far as "structure of the day" if you like, to square up the edits to hit the beats you like, and at the times you need... It must have dramatic license, means in the context of the Characters, PC's and NPC's alike, it has to make reasonable sense for each component of a scene to take the action within. AND you still end up with Character Arcs that are either flat... circular... or a series of complex knots that wander from hell to breakfast... You get Story and Adventure Arcs that "pop" up from almost nothing and diminish just as fast... and the more Players (and thereby PC's) involved, the more pasta you may as well sling at the wall to stick... If it weren't for highlighters of every possible shade in the universe I'd keep track of exactly NOTHING. ;o)
OK, but Alan Watt would say that you need a dilemma, not just problems that are solvable. And Jill Chamberlain would say that the hero's flaw needs to be tested by those scenes. And Eric Edson would say that those moments need to build in intensity.
@@Ruylopez778 Yes the initial problem should be a dilemma. Attempting to solve it should lead to a bigger mess. Yes, the hero's flaws must interact with the character's situation. Yes, there should be initial intensity in the book that trots along at pace, and takes to a full gallop at some point, as the climax approaches.
@@peterdriscoll4070 I guess I'm saying the more we try and simplify or generalise, the more nuance is lost. I don't think "interact" is the right word. If the events aren't hammering at their flaws, then the change might be confusing for the audience - assuming it's a change arc story. I think: "Put the hero in a dilemma, which they are responsible for, that repeatedly tests their flaws and makes them suffer, and their own decisions keep making things worse, increasing in intensity, until the climax" is more useful, except of course it gets away from the simplicity of your OP. But even then, in a tragedy things appear to be getting better, so "good/bad/better/worse" aren't universal, unless we say that things getting better in a tragedy is actually things being bad. But what do I know?
@@Fuffuloo I mean, that he is wrong with everything. Starting with the dark history of storytelling (the opposite of true) to characters and plot. Let me finish with pointing out, that unlike Mr. Kalil who has amounted to nothing as a writer (www.imdb.com/name/nm2150541/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1), like all the other expertes in this channel, I am a known author.
@@C.Church Okay, give me one piece of evidence for what he said about the origins of narration. I claim that he is a lay person who says whatever strikes him to be plausible. And about the primate of character over plot: The only author I could name, who agrees with him, is Steven King. Who is very bad with plot :)
Absolute twaddle. Never heard such poor advice and analysis of story. Man needs to learn some narrative theory beyond just buzz words. I don't think there is one rule about structure and plot. Writing should have depth and you don't have that with just one rule. There are many things that should be imbedded in a well told story. That's what narrative theory and structures are for.
Emotion drives the character; plot provides the road. A well-designed plot leads to a destination through language (dialogue and visuals) that provides the vehicle. Hopefully, your audience is on the journey too.
Well done Matthew in tackling difficult subjects in a relatable way.
Yup
"Character and Plot are intrinsically intertwined." - Matthew Kalil
To rely on a structure or plot seems limiting during the creative process but applying it in the editing or proofreading process sounds so natural…great talk! Profound!
These are the two ways I use all these videos/books about storytelling craft:
1. I listen/read as much of it as I can, knowing I can never consciously recall all of it, even with the notes I take. However, I believe that memory is a funny, ethereal, substance when we involve the subconscious. All these words are in my mind somewhere (I believe) and when I’m writing my novel, I like to think that the subconscious pulls on what’s relevant for the story from all those thousands of suggestions and videos I’ve watched, and it helps me know what/how to write next.
2. As he said in the beginning, I usually try to go back to the books and videos only after I’ve finished the first draft of my novel in order to work on editing for structure. Most times the subconscious has already helped in creating a structurally sound book, but it’s always nice to consciously acknowledge that the beats fall into a good rhythm, for peace of mind.
Thank you Film Courage for helping me fill my ethereal memory banks with all this useful information on writing craft.
"Make me care" - Andrew Stanton.
We like it.
I don't think Hemingway simply meant type for hours. Maybe the answer lies in "who the f types until he bleeds?" ...
@@alexispapageorgiou72 Hemingway also famously only wrote about 500 words a day.
@@partybhoy1967 Yeah but it was 500 Hemingway words
@@alexispapageorgiou72 Precisely.
The one thing that I feel is the character, the protogonist, is so very important, as Mathew Kalil mentioned, whatever we are saying must resonate, not for money but it must give the message that we want to convey, so that it changes the audience, their thinking, and they must remember the name of the character. Thanks FC for the wonderful videos that are so substantial.
In a year of watching this channel this is the first interviewer who I said I need this person’s book now. Cracked kettle indeed.
This was such a rich and helpful interview. Thank you guys. Goodness, I'm really realizing how I had structure introduced to me and how I had thought about it has been a big reason behind my writing frustration. Listening to this has helped reorganize my thoughts in a much more freeing way. Thank you again.
Tell your story by any means....just tell it.
I agree. When I hear people talking about plot and story structure, it's like they've all bought into one way to tell a story when there's actually a million ways to tell a story. I want to see a million different ways. I don't want to see movie template after movie template after movie template.
This really means a lot to me. Thanks
I got an idea, create a format for character sheets, write your story using D&D rules. This removes plot armor, drives story development, creates unforeseen events.
I subscribe to plot and character mutually driving each other. On structure, Film Courage if you could ever ask one of your guests about why The Lost Boys works SO well with quite the passive protagonist in Michael, that would be awesome to hear the responses. Just watched the movie yesterday for the 1st time and loved it and found the unconventional structure refreshing. There are even times in the movie when Michael is VISIBLY passive (literally asleep) while his little brother carries the story. I still loved the movie. It worked.
Perhaps he's, in a way, a stealth or crytp protagonist? This gives me some confidence. My Protagonist is somewhat mysterious( the other main characters have more lines) .My Pro though drives the plot in a mata way ( below the ice burg) He comes into his own though towards the end. He has the most potential for character growth. The climatic scene involves him and the antagonist fighting it out with the universe the stakes.
So Harrison Ford had a secret love child in South Africa who grew up to be a screenwriter?
Now that's all I see
Harrison de Klerk
I see Steve Martin :)
No guys, it's Bradley Cooper!
@@nukite303 Exactly what I thought. From one angle he's Harrison Ford and from another, it's Bradley Cooper :D
Such an amazing explanation about plot. Thank you Film Courage & Matthew Kalil.
writing or at least writing. seen alot of these. this one is the truest. thank you film courage
Every time you upload something from him it is refreshing. It's nice hear the less structured point of view once in awhile.
So plot is the rhythm to which we beat the kettle with. And to beat it you still need Soul for the resonance to vibe through.
But in the end it is still a fool's prayer to the starry scary night of blue.
I feel that I resonate with Mathews explanation, Loved it and thanks for sharing.
"Take a sledgehammer to your story once you've finished it."
Amen brother ;)
There's some profound wisdom in this one, and a ton of golden instructions. Thank you.
What a weird feeling hearing a fellow South African accent on this channel... Representing with some solid wisdom.
What a fabulous video! I loved The Three Wells, so I'm glad to listen and read the comments here. Thanks!
Wheatfield with Crows! Love that painting.
I'm going with this guy's advice. I'm just gonna write and then review for those weak structures, reinforce them using the knowledge gained by story structures (but only as a guide, not set in stone), and if there are any weeds in my garden story - get rid of them. Thanks a bunch! Now I am just concentrate on pure writing instead of constantly thinking about structure!!
Once again, this is simple, practical advice! I appreciate the "sledge hammer" analogy, too.
I was thinking, "Taking a sledgehammer to your story? That's a beautiful metaphor, but how do I do that? I'm sure he's not gonna go further into that." And then you asked the exact same question, so thank you!
Thank you so much, Mr. Kalil!!
this is a real good one. thank you both!
Cheers, thanks for watching.
Great insight, something needs to happen later to draw us there!
He makes good points. I'm shocked people don't understand what 'saying. Plot drives the story but your characters need to be developed more than your plot. If you're so focused on plot then you're project will feel off. Like a cookie cutter of every other thing out there. Character and plot are linked, but character is more important. You could have a paper thin plot, but if your characters are well developed it won't matter. But inversly if you have no plot, or it isn't enough to motivate the characters, then there is no desire from the audience to see what happens next. We can see how the new star wars trilogy is so unfocused on plot and characters that there is a resounding meh and hate from audiences. Sure people will go see it, but more as a spectacle instead of a film you watch over and over.
ah yes, the exact placement and orientation of these crows are sure to please the masses
9:05 the reference to dancing bears is to cheap, traveling circuses. In other words, base entertainment.
Thanks for this free school :D
Thank you for asking about the sledgehammer. It was a bit of a vague comment. Seemingly, this theory doesn't survive the sledgehammer, or at least his language failed him, here.
I do like the idea of resonance. It's about being an artist. And not forgetting to be an artist, first and foremost.
What I’m trying to write at the moment is pure character/culture which is mad frustrating. I have tons of concepts with no plot / through line to tie the story together neatly. This just causes me to be stuck for a long ass time
I need screenwriting lessons with you man😌
I feel he's equally as contradictory as his example. No, don't start with plot rules, then apply plot rules later and see if your story has them and they're strong enough... He seems like a very kind individual with a balanced viewpoint, but that he complained about one then appeared to do similar stood out to me. (Apparently, I'm the shouty story guy(mainly on a previous video))
I can relate to not always being able to find the words. My language abilities fail me. "Not always" hit the resonance... does any method? Also will depend on the individual writer doing any method and different stories with resonate with different people.
I thought he'd say something stupid before I clicked,
but I agree 100%.
Totally thought that was Harrison Ford in the thumbnail
To me the definition of art is a creative work that creates an emotional connection between the creator and the viewer. The strength of the emotional connection and to a lesser degree the number of people that emotionally connect with it, are what measure the quality of the art. The two parts of what goes into making art are emotional honesty and craftsmanship.
If you have great craftsmanship without emotional honesty you merely have a "product", which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's not art. If you have something that is extremely honest without great craftsmanship you have something closer to fanfiction or a hobby.
If you have something that is emotionally honest and has great craftsmanship but doesn't make an emotional connection with viewers? Sorry, it's not great art. But in that one case there is also a loophole, which is time. Some works of art that are not well received upon release can gain an emotional connection with viewers years, decades or even centuries later. But it has to be well crafted. If it's emotionally honest but poorly crafted you are probably out of luck.
Lastly the difference between "art" and "product" is not a zero sum, all or nothing type of thing. It is a sliding scale that depends on how much emotional honesty is left after re-writes, re-works, re-shoots or anything else that is done to appease viewers of the work.
Matthew's approach never really resonated ;) with me until this segment. Probably more because of where I'm at in my script, and not because he wasn't speaking truth.
Agreed.
the answer to the title is at 3:03
"the only thing you need to know... what's happening NOW in your story should not be as exciting or as interesting as what may or may not happen LATER ... so something's happening later, and it's drawing the story forward. And it's that thing that's happening later that you need to put in your plot somewhere... so you need to set it up so that something's gonna pay off later, and that'll drive the story forward, and that'll keep people watching."
I know exactly what he’s talking about but I won’t divulge it here hehe
What is your one rule for story structure?
We like the answer Aaron!
Film Courage My one rule is to ignore it until draft 2. ✊
Having a structure but it has to be adaptable, structure is foundation, a house without foundation falls apart, but once foundation is there you can really build any type of house you want
Structure is the roller coaster platform that your characters ride on.
Me to on the fourth 😃😉😍👍
fianlly someone that makes sense
Sir.can with subtitle upload all video
1:39 I disagree. Plot is the engine that drives character transformation (i.e. the purpose of the story/movie).
He's saying plot is the aftermath, the fallout of the characters themselves and together.
This guy would play a good tucker Carlson in a biopic pic
It's dangerous to point at a famous and successful person and say "they didn't follow this boring old formula" because it suggests that the person hearing you and thinking they, too, can ignore the formula. Just because one person won a fortune in the lottery by playing their birthday doesn't mean you will.
In my script, the characters have no idea what is going on and their odd actions are the plot. Nearly there. Another month I reckon.
8:50
There's a bit of science to resonance as found in cognitive poetics and stylistics.
Plot means very little
It's worth (one more time) admitting up front, I'm but a GM (Game Master for those who don't know)... SO most of the time I deal in really the same kind of storytelling that started it all... Back when we (humans) were still traveling in family units and clans to follow game migrations, someone at the campfire would take up the storytelling... It entertained kids so they didn't wander off alone at night. AND when the story was being told, the kids would (of course as kids do) interrupt with questions, about this creature, or that character... and the storyteller had to either answer the questions to move on... or tell the kid to quiet down (and we know how well that works)...
SO today, I deal with story structures that look more like steaming piles of pasta slung at the wall than anything otherwise graphically feasible...
My one rule?
Everything MUST have the dramatic license to happen.
We start with Characters. Done well, those Characters are not only functional for the story, but "buyable" as in believable to the rest of us at the Table. Then of course, I start introducing Problems, and Constraints to the world around them, and the Characters do stuff (you don't even want the list of feasible things there... Players are an unpredictable and self destructive lot)... AND somehow a lot of great fun comes about and we have a story to be retold for years to come... PROVIDED, I help get my Players' stories extracted well...
BUT it all has to make sense. If it doesn't make some kind of sense... It's no longer a functioning story. Do that, and you can pick and choose as far as "structure of the day" if you like, to square up the edits to hit the beats you like, and at the times you need... It must have dramatic license, means in the context of the Characters, PC's and NPC's alike, it has to make reasonable sense for each component of a scene to take the action within.
AND you still end up with Character Arcs that are either flat... circular... or a series of complex knots that wander from hell to breakfast... You get Story and Adventure Arcs that "pop" up from almost nothing and diminish just as fast... and the more Players (and thereby PC's) involved, the more pasta you may as well sling at the wall to stick... If it weren't for highlighters of every possible shade in the universe I'd keep track of exactly NOTHING. ;o)
Put a character in a bad situation, that leads to more bad situations, until the resolution of the bad situations.
OK, but Alan Watt would say that you need a dilemma, not just problems that are solvable.
And Jill Chamberlain would say that the hero's flaw needs to be tested by those scenes.
And Eric Edson would say that those moments need to build in intensity.
@@Ruylopez778 Yes the initial problem should be a dilemma. Attempting to solve it should lead to a bigger mess.
Yes, the hero's flaws must interact with the character's situation.
Yes, there should be initial intensity in the book that trots along at pace, and takes to a full gallop at some point, as the climax approaches.
@@peterdriscoll4070 I guess I'm saying the more we try and simplify or generalise, the more nuance is lost.
I don't think "interact" is the right word. If the events aren't hammering at their flaws, then the change might be confusing for the audience - assuming it's a change arc story.
I think: "Put the hero in a dilemma, which they are responsible for, that repeatedly tests their flaws and makes them suffer, and their own decisions keep making things worse, increasing in intensity, until the climax" is more useful, except of course it gets away from the simplicity of your OP.
But even then, in a tragedy things appear to be getting better, so "good/bad/better/worse" aren't universal, unless we say that things getting better in a tragedy is actually things being bad.
But what do I know?
He must not like the infinite films that begin with action or some dynamic suspense
:-) 3rd
Second :-Dddddd
He is wrong with everything.
What do you mean?
@@Fuffuloo I mean, that he is wrong with everything. Starting with the dark history of storytelling (the opposite of true) to characters and plot. Let me finish with pointing out, that unlike Mr. Kalil who has amounted to nothing as a writer (www.imdb.com/name/nm2150541/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1), like all the other expertes in this channel, I am a known author.
You confuse your opinion with statement of fact.
@@RagHelen Where may I read some of your work?
@@C.Church Okay, give me one piece of evidence for what he said about the origins of narration. I claim that he is a lay person who says whatever strikes him to be plausible.
And about the primate of character over plot: The only author I could name, who agrees with him, is Steven King. Who is very bad with plot :)
Absolute twaddle. Never heard such poor advice and analysis of story. Man needs to learn some narrative theory beyond just buzz words. I don't think there is one rule about structure and plot. Writing should have depth and you don't have that with just one rule. There are many things that should be imbedded in a well told story. That's what narrative theory and structures are for.
Fantastic video! Hemingway never actually said the blood quote though. 🩸 Yep, surprised me too when I finally found out. ✨🖊🩸✨