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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- Cash shop skins or bust. The way of modern MMORPGs.
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Kira had more visual progression than MMOs.
Beat me to it.
visually this guy is the physical embodiment of how I feel about modern MMOs
NGL was gonna mention it.
"This made me so upset" with emotional tone of rock. Man ive missed Kira
This 😂
Another React youtuber, mad world.
It's the RETURN of Kira! I hope the move went well.....despite how this video started.
I remember in 2005, talking with my friends, dreaming about what MMOs could be like in 10 or 20 years if World of Warcraft and Lineage 2 were so enjoyable back then. Little did we know those were the best the genre would ever be.
very, very true. The last meaningful addition to the OG design of MMOs was public quests in Warhammer Online. Everything else since then has felt like the cell phonification of the genre.
never liked wow or lineage,
@@ataridc WAR is very underrated, easily the most enjoyable MMO at launch other than WoW in my opinion, especially back then. The PvP was very fun during leveling too. Unfortunately it made some critical design mistakes in some key areas, and released very unfinished, otherwise it would 100% have been massive.
I just want to know where the cats are tbh.
Was about to ask that too. Vocal input from the cats are now a Kira staple.
He just moved but I'm hoping he puts a comfy chair against the wall to attract the cats.
ah, transmog, the true hero and reason why 100% of my characters look like starting pesant, after killing all the dragons and bandit kinds.
You like to travel incognito, hm? So you don't get pestered by actual peasants fawning over your gear? ☺
Yeah i'm similar I always favored a lot of the more simple stuff from vanilla to transmog.
I also take pride in making my character look like "Just a normal guy" in a dungeon :D Wizard, wizard, warrior, dragon-priest, accountant...
Yay Kira's back. It's good to see you again, hope you're doing well.
We also had arcade games as far back as the 70s which were not only literally pay to win, but also admittedly designed around the exact same dark patterns that modern gaming companies use to push people towards modern pay to win.
Yeah, I think people forget about the arcade era. They were just child casinos. We had a golden age for a while when home computers and consoles became readily available and there were lots of game options, but P2W came creeping back in eventually.
Believe it or not, even back then, there was a kind of quiet backlash for many arcade fans against games that had the "add coins to continue" feature. There was pride in the idea that you got good enough at an arcade game that you could play for a decent amount of time on one quarter.
Sorry, this is just as wrong as the stuff Kira points out being wrong. 100%, fully, undoubtedly wrong. There is an ocean of difference between pay to win and _pay to play_. Feeding the arcade machine did not get you any advantage whatsoever in a single arcade game ever. It allowed to keep playing. Usually, to keep losing. And while the arcades were the big thing from the late 70s to the late 80s, arcades did not matter that much in comparison to PC and consoles in the 90s and 00s. Those two decades also had little pay to win to speak of, so there really is no connection between the arcade dark pattern and the pay to win dark pattern except for the idea of micro transactions in general. The original "toss a coin to keep playing" microtransaction was designed for platformers, shootemups and beatemups, while the later pay to win concept cropped up decades later for massive multiplayer rpg games. Again, no connection.
@@finneogan Pay to play and pay to continue where you just died are two entirely different things. Paying to continue playing when you die or run out of time is literally paying for extra lives. It's no different than paying for extra potions or paying for an item to bring yourself back to life in the boss room of an MMO instead of back in town. You died, you paid money to come back to life instead of starting over, that is the advantage. Those games were designed to exploit this cycle just as games nowadays are. I don't care if you think Kira disagrees with me or not my argument stands on it's own with no appeal to higher power strategy needed.
So true but still some great memories... On my Dad's dime.
'Warrior needs food'
I still miss my time in EQ1. It's sad that we'll never get that sort of feeling or challenges again.
OG LINEAGE was awesome.
You should check out Project 1999, it's a fan run recreation of the classic generation (Kunark and Velious only) of EQ1. The Green server specifically is the most classic feeling. There's also Project Quarm that is newer and has many quality of life changes. Both projects average around 500 players depending on the time of day, so still quite active for fan projects
@@themonotonist Quarm actually hangs around 1,000 active players almost every day of the week during the evenings, the lowest it hits is like 3-400. On the weekends it's up around 1,300-1,400. Quarm's where it's at rn! Kunark just launched recently, the server still has that early momentum, it's a good time to get in.
@@themonotonist theres just not enough players I log on and I feel that i'm exploring a dead world, also all the people who are playing it are playing multiple characters at once its not very much like how everquest was at least for me
@@themonotonist I am very thankful for preservation of old MMOs, but they just aren't the same thing for a myriad of reasons. the knowledge of the playerbase, the population, the feeling of being frozen in time, the lack of appeal and daunting feeling for new players. I know there are some games with the goal of recapturing "old" MMO feel, but if I'm being 100% honest, I don't have much hope for those either. I think that time is just over, and it's probably healthier to accept that than to dwell on it, so if you can get that same happiness from one of those old school servers, I guess you are pretty lucky.
"Never Forget this whole p2w era started with Cosmetics"
Not really we started with p2w went into cosmetics and have a resurgence of p2w actually. Like Silkroad Online or metin and many more or idk Kwari as an FPS example. The early 2000s f2p mmo market was a horror in that regard.
The whole "outfits with stats" thing existed waaaaaaaaaay back then, idk what people are talking about when they imply it's something new.
@@AzureRoxe They imply that they started either gaming with Fortnite or they lived in their WoW bubble like Asmongold. There was so many free 2 play p2w mmorpgs back then it was ridiculous. It started in around 2004 till like 2011 where like each month a new one came out. Full stats on Skins like you said or full casino style upgrading of gear for money like idk 4story for example. Loot Boxes with upgrade materials for real money and so on.
@@leana339 absolutely, people listen to youtubers with production value, and believe they know the history of Asian ports. I mean 3rd party sites didn't sell things because they looked pretty, they did so because it gave you exactly what you want. The publishers/developers seen this and just decided to put it whole cloth as acceptable into their games.
how are things that are strictly cosmetic p2w lol
@@JustJonFr Did you understand the Context?
The guy in the Reddit thread wrote "This whole p2w era started with cosmetics"
To which i just say that it's not true. Because anyone that played free 2 play MMORPG's in the timeframe from around 2004-2011 knows that pay 2 win was always normal and even worse back then. Like you could get gear upgrades only for money and no other way inside the game. Or the Cosmetic Skins in 2004 upwards already had p2w stats on them for characters. Or games had health pots in the shop with 0 cooldown so you could macro them in PvP to not die and so on. Also Visual Progression of gear for the most part only existed for b2p sub 2 play games. Rarely free 2 play games had visual progression outside of gear upgrades which again was a casino slot machine in itself and mostly possible only with RL money.
Heck even the game Kwari i mentioned was an FPS in like 2007 in which you could buy ammo with RL money and you wagered money through your health pool in matches. 2004-2011 was the worst time ever in the free 2 play market.
As someone who spent years on EQ, people forget just what a fucking time sink the game was, and for almost no progression whatsoever, unless you were a necessary class in a raiding guild....
I am confused in term 'visual progression' simply because people will not mess it up due to cosmetics. They will mess it up simply because of meta. As everyone will use same few selected sets so they end up looking like mismatched clones.
WoW used to have many different armor sets. Each class alone had several tiers of armor, there was a difference between PvP and Raid gear, there were plenty of different looking weapons while each being strong in certain departments and some were very rare to get so only a few players per server had them. It was great. For RPers it was a dream as well cause you had many different outfits to mix and match. Later on the armors all looked the same, now everyone looks the same cause Blizzard turned lazy. Other MMO's did the same but they sell the cool looking stuff for real cash.
Visual progression is a levelling thing, what youre talking about is end game content, youre confusing the two
When there are dozens, hundreds of items that are required across so many roles like osrs it becomes satisfying. And even then, you can start to include ornament kits.
"Unless you play something super old" , yeah you got me Kira, Im playing Guild wars 1 at the moment while listen to you.
GW was my game. Early adopter, special editions, midnight releases, god I loved that game.
@@iamperplexed4695 Is still a good game, sure it's abit slower gameplay compare to newer mmorpgs. I still have all my physical cds and it's cd cases of all of the gw1 games.
It's abit of a blast from the past to open them up and read those lore books & manuals you get in them.
@SecretRole OH I know, my media went by the wayside years ago now but I wish it hadn't. The posters and wall maps and lore guides and hints. With that game, at least, for the era, they knew how to make a Special Edition actually special. I pre-ordered the game (in 2004 that was another experience), just so I could have early access while playing with the developers in a beta. That meant I had to go down to my gameshop and stand in line with all the other RPG geeks, JUST to get my beta cd and code. Then i had to stand in that line again for my copy of the game 2 weeks later. I stood in that line for every expansion as well.
@@iamperplexed4695 I kind of miss those moment abit, when I and other people where standing in line at local game store for a midnight release of a game, everyone was hyped for the game.
Hell I even miss the days when I could walk down to a game store and buy a physical pc game and it had all the stuff as maps,lore stuff etc in the game case.
Sure digital games have its pros but it will never beat the same feeling that physical copy has.
oh well, back to Old Ascalon I go.
I miss the mirror already. it made the last room look so big.
I have a simple saying for 2 MMORPGs I played.
Final Fantasy XI is a world that exist despite you.
Final Fantasy XIV is a world that exist for you.
You know that even with transmog, at the very start of the game you don't have cool looking gear to transmog into right? The existance of transmog doesn't meant that you get to instantly look cool the moment you start playing a game (baring cash shop cosmetics but that's kind of a separate issue right?). Like, if you see someone who's wearing a cool looking armor set, they still had to obtain that armor set one way or another. Maybe they're wearing a more powerful armor set than the one they look like, but maybe they prefer the look of this armor set instead.
It is also incredibly difficult to create an objective line of more powerful = more cooler, especially if you're talking about an MMO that has had multiple expansions. Maybe for one or two expansions you can manage to out-cool the previous endgame gear, but you can only keep that up for so long.
nah, he's right. having to wear only what you've earned on that character was key to the original MMO design. It's fine if you prefer the transmog era, it's just not congruent to original MMO design or goals.
True all the cool outfits in final fantasy 14 are wildly expensive like a maid outfit should not be $15
Transmog is the reason blito stopped trying, why waste money and time on a monke who will change it with that 20 yo 1d armor when you can sell it on the cash-shop and buy another yacht for your dog.
Visual changes are a huge driver for my friends in Table Top games, so it only makes sense that would transfer to video games. THey love when I will call out "ok, so you walk into town. This guy glows, you are on fire, she hovers, so, everyone is staring."
I remember back I played Runescape and I completed a quest that gave me a (at the time) one of the most unique looking weapons in the entire game, the Flail of Ivandis. I shaped a whole cosmetic "outfit" for it because it was that good, yea the stats sucked but when Im doing the million different noncombat things in runescape it was COOL and looked great. Was the first time people would approach me and ask what weapon I was holding.
23:00 i member. Hving shiny armor and gold tiger in Mu was a FLEX xD
Virtual bling for virtual flex, yes. Sad in a different way.
I remember back when Maplestory first released medals that would show the name of a certain medal you earned below your in game name below your character. The one everyone wanted was 'Quest Specialist', obtained through completing 500 side quest. The reason everyone wanted it was because it took a LONG time to complete, and it showed you weren't just doing nothing but spending money on NX and grinding mobs.
Do any people still play MMORPG's just to explore and experience a fictional world?
yes, but I known we‘re not many anymore.
the games aren't designed for us at this point, no. there's a billion "open world" games released per year, and I know they're not same to us, but they only care about the almighty dollar.
2:06 eeeeeeehhhhh.... I mean, you can literally buy gold directly from the developer and skip hundreds of hours of farming to get the best gear, but you still need to grind out all the skills. So saying it's not pay to win is pretty dishonest, it's just not as bad as some other games and especially not as bad as Runescape 3.
This is a good observation. I remember being impressed by a higher level half-elf who had chain mail in EQ back in 99. And us level 10 chuds were impressed.
MMOS have lost the RPG part.
You left Thailand?
I miss everquest, my biggest wish would be a everquest-like game to come out once again, I'd pay 50$ a month for a old style mmo like everquest with no cash shop, preferably with slightly better controls/qol but maintaining many of the obtuse old mechanics that skyrocketed the immersion into the stratosphere.
I wish they could just figure out a way to make these games for a niche audience instead of trying to appeal to every human on the planet at once. like a nice mmo where theres like 50-100k players and we all pay a hefty subscription but the games integrity is maintained would be ideal.
@@saltiney8578 you can still play eq1. And they have introduced qol changes overtime. I still loving yearly for a couple weeks at a time. And I also think eq2 is a good game too.
But nothing will ever recapture the magic of playing these games in their prime. I’m sure WoW lovers think the same way about original Warcraft.
@@solomani5959 I've tried P99 and the official everquest but theres just not enough players and everyone seems to be multiboxing whole parties kinda kills it for me tbh, but if you have any recommendations.
I never got to experience eq2 very well because my computer at the time was so bad when I'd go to the major cities my game would just not function without staring at the ground and it was generally laggy overall for me.
@@saltiney8578 yeah. My top end PC at the time couldn’t run it above low with decent fps. They made the (dumb) design decision to make eq2 future proof so you couldn’t play medium/high/max with a decent frame rate until years later when GPUs caught up. It’s playable now. And it is a good iteration on eq1 imo.
For eq1 I play with my wife and work the follows it’s more than enough to do a lot of the content. Never tried to find a group (not since the original days) so not sure about that side.
why do all of these MMO dudes live in developing asian countries. weeeeeird.
Yeah, that's cool and all that. But where are the cats?
Coming from a raiding background in Everquest, the visual progression was mainly only for weapons. Raid tier plate looked the same as low level plate. The colour may have been different sometimes but generally, it was all the same. Seeing someone with their epic 1.0 back in 2000 made you want to play even more so you could be like Pussysmasher7 too.
Oh, no... Ash, my man, you did a terrible mistake. Your loss could have been miniscule if you thought beforehand...
You should have bought extra tickets for your fragile luggage (maybe an entire row) like large electronics and had them with you in the plane while flying. It would have still cost a lot (since they'll probably charge you for bringing extra luggage into the cabin too), but at least you would get to keep your stuff intact.
It's a known fact that luggage is tossed around without any care in airlines. Never entrust them anything you can't afford to lose.
I'm truly sad for you, especially since this tragedy could have been prevented at a fraction of the cost if you thought just a little. My condolences, but you basically willingly chose to lose your stuff for basically no reason.
PS: Musicians who carry portable instruments and fly often actually buy a ticket for their instruments to keep them intact. Especially if they are flying around for concerts. Imagine someone breaking your instrument, which you use to make a living. I can't even imagine handing a stranger something so precious.
Even though people trash it, and I do too. I love that I'm about to earn my 20 year cape in RS3. I don't play other mmo's for this reason. I've earned and worked for years to have the stats and stuff I have. I was there for many one time events. And so on
glad to see you back making videos
I've been replaying Guild Wars 1. It has such a cool skill system and it's really addicting. Not only will we never have another game like it again we never did before either. It's a one-of-a-kind experience and I would recommend any MMO fan to jump back in.
I remember playing WoW in the early 2004. Had a paladin with a complete "Battle-forged" set of green gear; low level items... Received a lot of messages from people saying how cool it was.
I remember seeing my first warrior with an Arcanite Reaper then someone with Windfury... On top of Molten Core & BWL sets/items. It used to mean something.
I don't mind Transmogs; if you have to actually hunt the items to get the skins. This shows personal effort compared to just paying for stuff.
I also don't get the concept of wanting to look cool at Level 1... That would be like a D&D fighter rocking magical Full Plate & Weapons at Level 1. You have to earn those things.
I love transmog/costumes for the reason of "creating" your character's style, matching different pieces/colors, etc. and making it look exactly how you want.
I also think is ironically funny that one person complains about having no visual progression, but then saying "I love transmog" which is completely opposite to the idea of "static visual progression" throughout the game.
Nothing you said here is wrong or untrue. But I kind of disagree. I feel nothing is "the same" because everything in the industry is the same or done the same way, until someone else does it differently but WELL DONE. The problem is that "hardcore mmos" are niche in their own niche segment. Not everyone wants to play a difficult mmo or where you have to "take the time to do stuff", but if YOU DO, you have to go to RS (nothing wrong with that but I mean it's an old game so it plays like it's from 50 years ago, obviously) or anything else that is very dated, regurgitated or simple copies at this point.
Imagine a Black Desert but you actually have to grind just a bit for in-depth systems that are not omega convoluted / riddled with RNGs. I personally don't like the game and I dislike the combat, but I know many many people love it. The graphics and combat from BD let's say are S tier or A+ generally speaking. If there's a new game that looks modern, feels GOOD and fluid and has good systems, maybe story, etc. I feel it would slowly start growing the market. The problem is no one has done that. They just make a bunch of systems that are tangled together by some sort of cohesion or common medium but that's it. Which is why you end up with something like New World, the environment looks amazing, you ahve different activities, but the POIs in the beginning were super boring and teh same throughout 50 levels, the market at some point was completely broken (the system, not the feature) so on and so forth.
I'm not gonna say Ashes is "the savior" because it's stupid and I do have some irks about certain decisions (bizz or otherwise), but in general I'm cautiously optimistic for it. I really don't understand why you wouldn't be interested in the idea of the game, so if you wanted to make a video on this or comment, it'd be appreciated it. And if you want to be a "massive game" from the get go otherwise you're a "DOA" or "failure", I feel that is where many studios or publishers F it up.
Last point, maybe a bit unrelated perhaps, different circles. I frequent content where there are talks about right to repair, consumer protection, privacy, etc. and one of the things all of those people want the most, is a good service or product, that works, that doesn't fuck you over and that whatever update is done to them, is something useful. They don't have a lot of problem PAYING for something they will be using and that is good. And we're seeing that sentiment more and more over time, very slow, very small, but it's there growing. Now GN making videos on how Asus or Intel are shit, other big tubers commenting on technology stuff, the stuff about AI, etc. I feel many of this "trendy moves" in the industry dried people way too much, and a lot of people are waking up to that.
So what I'm trying to get at is that maybe your new upcoming MMO is not going to have 25 million active users. But if it had X amount which is enough for you to be profitable and keep running... it shouldn't be a SPRINT, it should be a marathon. You slowly build the community, show that you're serious about fixing the issues or take in people's suggestions.
Another problem in my eyes is the trend of being "trustworthy and transparent" is no longer useful. People hear about something that is 5 years from now and they get bored after 3 months, uninterested or start either ultra loving / ultra hating that new thing for no real reason (because the game isn't out yet) and/or generating expectations. Everyone wants their brilliant idea implemented in the game. I feel if a GOOD solid game came out tomorrow from nowhere and it was good and took advantage of the "hype" for the next 2 months, it would be much more benefitial in the long term.
Idk, I feel a lot of 30 years old + like me would like to pay 15 bucks for a meaningful game that is actually good to play and FUN, besides cosmetic stuff. Maybe not you, if you still pay for WoW and support Blizzard - not saying is right or wrong, it's your decision and if you're ok with it that's fine. I personally, if I can get away not supporting garbage companies by giving them money, I do. I don't play Ubisoft titles, I don't play EA titles, I don't play Blizzard games anymore. And that's the switch. If there are more people like you that just keep paying for horrible practices, then people like me will have to suck it and look at clouds. But if majority of people stopped paying and demanded respect from the companies (with their wallet), companies would at least pretend to be more careful or "caring" of the customer. There's not enough whales or money a whale has to overcome losing 8 million players subcriptions, I feel. Maybe I'm wrong. But that's how I look at it. Everything is shit because they make shit and people eat it.
I just want a mmo to appeal to like 50-100k players games trying to appeal to every person on the planet are always shallow and boring, and charge us a huge subscription fee like 50$ a month but that is to get rid of any sort of cash shop, fight bots aggresively and maintain absolute integrity of the experience. Preferably a game that takes a lot of inspiration from everquest. alas it will never exist.
Bro how much freetime do you have
the problem whit transmog is that.
in wow you stated the wrath expanion you got that welcome to this expansion level (wrath was level 70-80) here is half a set of level 72 gear.
it sort of looked bad.
had we had transmogs peaple would still be running around in Full final tier level 70 gear untill they hit level 80 and completed the first level 80 gear set.
meaning that good looking level 72 set was just wasted. there was never a case of (thank god no clownsuit) but no underfunded adventurer that could only afford half an uniform.
@@Leaf__22 lol wrote a novel about MMO clothes
You said "Old School Runescape" enough to be back in my TH-cam algorithm. Welcome back Ash, I missed you :D
I guess the last mmo with a visual progression and tons of styles scattered around the maps was elder scrolls online. Yep, you got costumes for cash currency there, but the great majority was new styles from maps, and you could just get a gift (said costume) from some other player in exchange from some gold anyways.
the black market for items in diablo 2 was enormous, people paid huge money to get crazy items, and don't forget they used those in PvP
Bro NOT getting audio has to be the most frustrating god damn thing😭
2004-2008 my golden years of MMO FFXI.
I remember in EverQuest (I'm old) I'd see someone cast a spell and there would be tons of particle effects... Signaling they were straight chads.
That magic is gone and i will never find it again.
man good to see youre back my dude
im glad you mentioned transmogs and osrs coz when i read ahead and saw that i nearly started commenting basically saying the same as you were going to, because visual progression is just a small part of visual design in general and good visual design leads to good visibility which i think is very important in games, especially multiplayer, so that the player can discern what the fuck theyre actually seeing, i think thats why a lot of other mmorpgs kinda fall flat (along with the p2w and other issues) as most of them have way too many flashy effects and try to pack in style over substance, visibility is especially important if the game has pvp, being able to tell what gear your opponent has, what abilities theyre using etc, like in the old days on wow in bgs youd see someone with the best pvp armour and be like "oh shit" or youd see a 'twink' in the low level bgs and know what enchant they had on their weapon because of the glow, youd see a paladin bubble and youd stop pumping dps into him etc etc. also on the subject of good visibility = good design and osrs, the fucking voidwaker is the single dumbest item in the game, a sword that does melee damage but has a spec that does mage damage thus you have to pray mage, if you didnt have that knowledge you most likely would never be able to figure it out, it is simply bad design without even going into its other issues, and a game like osrs is largely about visibility, its why there are pvp tricks such as "invisible vengeance" where you cast a spell without the animation going off and showing your opponent as well as stuff like drinking a potion before switching weapons as the drinking animation will hide your switch and then special attacking so your opponent has less chance to respond, or swapping weapons after attacking which looks funky and can confuse new pvpers as to what weapon is actually being used making it harder to defend against
its also why rs3 is a steaming pile of crap because it has terrible visibility, all the transmogs, buyable cosmetics, animation overhauls as well as being a game so old that its probably gone through multiple graphic artists that eventually the world lost cohesion and any mass of players is just a blur of colours and effects with nothing being noticeably iconic, ironically you can even buy transmogs of the old style of armours/weapons, the ones that are iconic and even something like skill capes has different variants and stuff these days, all this customization is great in theory, a roleplaying game should allow you to dress your character how you want, but i think you always run the risk of crossing the unspoken line where the games visibility starts to suffer and things you add start feeling less and less in tune with the visual design/aesthetics/feel of the game, its also a pandoras box with buyable cosmetics coz its not like theyre just going to stop making them now, same with any other game like league of legends for example, i dread to think how many skins there are on that game now (another game that is falling victim to bad visibility, its already difficult for a new player to get into it without the fact they struggle to familiarize themselves with champions coz everyone has skins these days because of the loot system where as back in the day seeing skins was rarer, now its rare to have a game where 1 person doesnt have a skin and all the skins now are epic+ quality redoing all the spell effects and stuff)
23:00 I remmber an MMO that I played where one of the most expensive piece of gear was a Nobleman outfit (cloth so everyone could wear it this was a wow clone).
and as I had it explained the devs made 1 suit a month or so aka it was rare because you could not just run to some vendor in the capital buy the super expensive blueprint buy the 120 most expensive Cloth type (sink/megawave or what it now was)
anyway the dev would make 1 suit and sell it at a in-game action.
and anyone whit a large bank account would be there trying to bid on it and bid on it they did (one of the games largest cash sinks and note was also a bit of a gold bot spotting as in order for one to be approved for the bid of the suit you needed to sign up for the event as a bidder and that also made the devs look over your in and outcome).
odd a 50.000 gold trasnfer (the most expensive item was maybe 1-5K and a one buy thing).
if not well the dev took the winners money and tossed it in a lake and gave them the suit.
so if you saw someone whit that suit you knew that they was rich.
I just got my Final Dark Dye for my Graceful set from Hallowed Sepulchre, and I’m working on the Dark Acorn for my Squirrel Pet. Visible progression! OSRS FTW!
Kind of disagree. MMOs were shared spaces and a very important facet of them were the social interactions. WoW wasn't killed by another MMO, it was killed by social media. People sought help and connections in game previously, now they do it on reddit.
The idea of a shared world isn't really utilized by modern MMOs anymore and that's because there is a clear limit to how many people one can reasonably interact with regularly. That's why co-op games (which most modern MMOs are in reality) are what came instead.
The loss of the social aspect and (ironically) the sheer size of the playerbase made MMOs not give the expected experience. In Everquest, Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies and other you knew almost everyone through at most two or three people. You knew the "top" players, traders and merchants. That only works however with a limited playerbase and social interactions predominantly inside the game.
Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies didn't really have visual progression anyway.
Used to care about what other players were wearing. Now though, chances are anything that looks cool was just bought in a store so there is no excitement.
or worse the cosmetics in the shop will be replaced because they look better than anything the game drops.
Loved inspecting people in wow even as a casual to see top tier gear. Sometimes that would make me wanna pug for even 10 man or 25 man raids to try and get said gear. I even did that for pvp
18:00
Kira this is such a great take and I appreciate this notion. I'm reaching my mid 30s and have applied this to almost every area of my life and low and behold, my life feels better overall.
KIRA IS TRANSCENDING AND I LOVE IT, great thoughts on how we percieve mmos and how that impacts our fun. To add on that just take WOW retail for example, people going for the hardest content make it so the devs have to account for every addon they might/could/should have when balancing that specific type of content, I think that happens in PVP too. I would love to see a video dedicated to this, how we as players sometimes go too far because we're looking for nostalgia or something harder while losing of the game itself.
Kira my boy have you been playing the Dark And Darker re-release? Or even Dungeonborne? Been playing them myself and been having a pretty good time
Was just checking today for new videos and wondering where the hell you disappear :D!
And I feel you, most sincerely, re growing to accept that 'the way things used to be' is over, and that living in the past only hurts and never helps. However, I would say don't give up on the dream completely - every now and then I see a film, or play a game, about which I think, "they don't make 'em like that, anymore...", and it gives me the strength to power on!
I know it's not comparing like with like - but the Metroidvania boom of the past decade has been wonderful for me. I always enjoyed games of that kind, and mostly had to look back to Super Metroid and Symphony Of The Night, occasionally receiving something more contemporary like Shadow Complex. Hard to stick a flag in exactly where the boom began, but personally, ever since Guacamelee was released, I've never been without a new MV to play. Indeed, I am bordering on being tired of them! Which is not something I could ever have imagined myself saying 15 years ago.
Obviously, if a new 'old' MMO were ever to be released, it wouldn't have the über-glossy production values of the PTW crap - but with game engines and software toolkits becoming evermore powerful, certain outcomes can be achieved much more quickly and cheaply than they used to be. All it would take is a team of people willing to put quality first and money second (and I'd argue that this does happen occasionally... Baldur's Gate 3, for instance), and you might, one day, have something 'new' that feels 'old' enough to make you happy.
I hope it happens for you, mate. You've suffered long enough!
I think tramsmog would be less of a problem for visual progression if old content didn't become trivialized over time. If, for example, all raids in a game had to be cleared synced (like a FF14 ultimate) then the cool gear would still be an expression of skill. But when someone can solo raids from an expansion or two ago, then the stuff is meaningless.
That said, boosting/carry culture has also destroyed visual progression in the same way, because now there's a mechanism to in game turn money into gear and accolades, which means any talentless hack can have whatever they want if they swipe.
The gaming culture has moved away from something that could allow visual progression (or in game accomplishments in general) to really mean anything.
Once you had chromatic boots and T2.5 shoulders you know you had made it to the big leaques.
Ultima Online, Eerquest 1. Apparently they are wanting to return to Everquest and base it off 1. I hope so. We need old school MMO mindsets. Star Wars Galaxies...was epic.
In Vanilla WoW and BC,maybe in WotLK, the gear that was on people showed how good they were and made other people drool,but from a point on, the "cool looking" gear was nothing much and lost all of its shine.
"Oldschool Runescape isn't p2w" wrong, it is. The Oldschool bond is P2W in every possible way. Sure you can play iron man or the different modes and pretend like having an icon or status next to your ingame name is going to make people react differently to what you are equipping, but the reality is that most players are not playing these different modes and the base game will therefor always be considered P2W.
I also believe that it removes more of the "visual progression" aspect of the game because you can't tell anymore if someone has genuinely grinded hard enough to be able to afford a full bandos set or a torva set, instead you can now just assume people are purchasing plenty of bonds with real money, to sell at G.E and then in turn buy whatever you want. It removes any "progression" you would have to make otherwise through grinding for GP.
Can we just make a new genre title for old-school style mmo's and have some passionate devs make some that arent appealing to 50 million people but just appeal to like a hardcore 100k player base or whatever for a long time. God its so much copium but I miss old style mmo's. Personally I'd pay a hefty subscription for a old style mmo with no cash shop like 40$ a month or something.
My most wanted game would be a everquest-like mmorpg with slightly better controls and qol while maintaining a lot of the more obtuse non-modern systems that enhanced the immersion into the stratosphere.
Your own progression to arrive at this conclusion was great, like you said p2w will always exist because players want to play for gold, even XIV has bots and gold sellers.
But I still think that a company doing the p2w themselves will always affect the design since they have a financial incentive to make your life worse in-game
I only played and loved the ac2 trilogy and in one of the games you got to do the different tombs to get Altair's armor that that felt amazing when you finally got it.
18:00 this is me now I just watch/play/read things for my own enjoyment without overthinking too much.
This and the numerous videos from others I've seen where they talk about audio not working for one reason or another for videos has cemented the idea that if I ever make content, I will have a separate audio recorder on the side just as a backup
Good to see you Kira. Glad you hear you were moving and not dead.
I was becoming concerned! Glad to hear from you again.
I’d be interested to see if Monsters and Memories sells cosmetics later on. It’s the only old school MMO being produced where they said no cash shop, subscription only. So far they respect visual progression, I hope it stays that way.
People who think you need cash shop items to look good aren't exploring the game to its fullest, they make for fun outfits but the best stuff is those specific items you discover through exploring the game that just so happen to fit together to make a comfortable outfit.
This is actually one of the main reasons I can’t get into mmorpgs anymore. It sucks that people have settled for the idea that cosmetics are not pay to win. I never agreed with this and have been saying this for like 10 years.
This is part of the reason I've been enjoying Pax Dei personally. Of course it has its own issues but the sandbox environment is part of what sold me on it.
Of course there is Visual Progression! The numbers are getting bigger in my POB
Damn that moving equipment loss. Hopefully you get some compensation, but that takes time. I "watch" for the commentary and audio seems fine
Rip all the smashed stuff
You should make the silent footage available just so people can try to dub it for fun or something.
World of Warcraft destroyed alot for the mmorpg genre.
I know your an old mmorpg player that played games like DaoC.
World of Warcraft is so extremly casual and easy and the players from that game now considers that to be the norm.
They complain if it takes more then 5 days to get to max level.
They have never experianced the struggle of getting from 40-50 in Daoc pre Darkness falls, grinding for a week only to die once and loose all exp.
But noone complained.
Instead you walked up to other players doing the same and asked if you could join and then you started chatting and made friends while grinding.
That is not someting World of Warcraft player wants to do.
They cant grasp the concept of making the leveling progress from lvl 1 to max fun, its all about endgame. (and then they complain when theres not enough endgame rushing to it)
Communities does not excist since World of Warcraft, people want to interact as little as possible, and if there is interaction its all toxic, something the FPS Quake and Unreal Tournament kids brought that started playing World of Warcraft and made the norm.
Visual progression means nothing like you say.
When someone got that cool ice gear in DaoC you know that dude had been working hard with a big team of players.
Now..transmog.
Its impossible to revert it now becouse people are used to the dumbed down system and people get bored extremly fast.
Totally agree with your evaluation methods. It works for everything - music, films, games, whatever. 1) what is it trying to do and 2) does it get there? Means I spend way more time enjoying things rather than shitting on them. Even if something deserves getting shit on, there's no reason for me to be the one doing it. I don't get paid for that.
EverQuest was the first PC game I ever owned. I think an important element of old school MMOs were the way they were built around required social mechanics. In EQ you had to group or you would die. (Solo necros don't come at me; you ended up lonely in endgame because you didn't know how to work in a group.) You had to have a guild to raid because there was just no way to organize enough players otherwise. We accepted that and it made for incredible camaraderie. It could never be done now because any game that requires people to play together on a schedule will fail. We just don't do that anymore.
And I still remember seeing players walking by all decked out in high level armor, recruiting for their guild. I signed on immediately. Took 40 levels for me to get a decent kit because they didn't twink anybody out and we didn't want that shit anyway. We wanted to earn it. I loved every minute.
But at the time, it was also the only game in town. It was EQ and Ultima Online. So everyone who was into the MMO concept was playing one of those two games.
FFXIV remains a pleasant experience for me, but you can play it solo beginning to end. That's not a knock on it. That's pretty much how you have to do it these days. I just think it's the closest thing to the old school MMOs in how it's designed.
We all used to be 16-22 year olds playing everquest though and now were 35-50 and have kids. and the younger generation have no interest in these types of games.
Mounts like the zg raptor and tiger, the legendaries Thunderfury and ragnarok from classic wow were so mythical and hard to get you needed up to 40 players to all work together to kit out this one player for weeks- it made people go wow when they saw a player with these ultra rare drops and rewards, and was truly a special time in gaming imo.
yeah having thunderfury is a trip you feel so special, you had to convince 39 other players that you were worthy of getting it, then get multiple rare drops, farm a insane amount of mats 100x arcanite bars which take daily transmutes, and then fight a pretty easy world boss to craft it, and then it finally fixes warriors biggest weakness which is adding some aoe to his tanking.
While I personally hate the design of thunderfury and prefer slightly more grounded designs (i'm a huge quel serrar fan even though its also ridiculous) The gigantic sword with lightning effects stand out and people would stare at you with awe.
It also reminds me of star wars galaxies where there was a hidden esoteric way to become a jedi or a sith but barely anyone knew how and you rarely saw one, so if you ever saw like a jedi or a sith or one dueling the other you'd be like woooow cuz your just some random star wars citizen doing whatever it is you do but they're like the characters in the movies and you could imagine they're off doing grand adventures.
I love very hard to acheive esoteric things that give you status in an mmo I think its one of the coolest things that used to be in them.
Well, visual progression is definitelly a think while leveling in an MMO, alas people completely ignore this part of the game and focus solely on the endgame, where people aren't really making real gear progress but instead incremental progress. In this case, Lost Ark's glow still work well as a visual progression for gear
People focusing solely on the Endgame is pretty much WoW's fault since it popularized the whole "leveling doesn't matter, only endgame raiding does".
You can still probably use different means, like titles or maybe only some part of cosmetics, or some logo before the name. The bigger problem probably is, that there is not much that could be shown, nothing worth mentioning. It feels like it went from epic achievements to mundane daily missions, but this could just be me reminiscent ...
I am grateful that i've played mmos in the golden era. I'm trying to accept what mmos have turned into but i'm failing at it. It's left a very sour taste in my mouth. I keep on playing these mmos but it's a cycle of disappointment at this point. I've played the kr version of T&L for about a month, decided it's time for me to acknowledge that the genre i love simply doesn't exist anymore. I'm throwing the towel in the ring and stop coping through these games. After 22 years of playing mmos it's time to find a new hobby.
"This is not the greatest song in the world, this is just a tribute" Kira after finding out he had no audio recording 😂
OSRS is king man! glad to see u recognise it, til this day its such a unique project... and its better than ever now! we still got ages to go!
In ffxiv I always wear the highest level raid gear I can because I love visual progression.
Traditionally you started mismatched and that was fine and even then you would try to style around it. You might mess up your stats a bit, but everyone did it. I like the wow transmog system because raid sets used to all be so bad ass that I like picking the one I liked the most. Now it is easier because I think everything looks like crap. Gw2 legendary gear is unique, but even then some of the store stuff blows it out of the water. I think what has happened is that ALL games do it and so you might buy skins in LoL and now you are already mentally prepped to buy skins in other games you might play. "OH I spent 20 dollars on this Renekton skin. I feel totally fine with buying this skin in wow or gw2 or eos or etc etc forever and ever." This was sadly inevitable unless we forced ourselves to marry one game and one game only.
Mortal Online 2 has visual progression, which directly leads to other players assessing how much they want to kill you for your gear.
kira making a mmo video what has the world come to
Alot of MMOs do have visual progression in theory, but they offer ways to alter the gears appearance so that indeed nullifies it
Friendos got left in the other continent 😢
Amazing FMA:B figurine indeed
I was in the second or third best Alliance raiding guild on my server back in TBC and people used to come up to me and tell me how awesome my gear was all the time. That leaving the genre really killed it for me, because if I'm not cool then what's the point?
I always am so happy to see Kira back after a month of no uploads🎉
We will all mourn the loss of Kira’s wisdom in that botched audio.
For some reason, if you were to ask me what one of my fondest memories of World of Warcraft was, it would be the flying transit system that'd take you for ages to get where you wanted, then you'd forget why you wanted to travel to that place in the first place so you'd Hearthstone back to your home city only to remember at the very last second why you were there and panic-try to stop yourself from teleporting only to fail and go all the way back to square one.
I know it's weird, but I don't think MMO players these days would quite get the appeal of such stupid bullshit, cos I still don't and it's the first thing I think of...
Even just having cool shit and people supposedly being impressed by it. Even that part of the whole MMO gaming sphere changed. People don't go oogly eyed at cool stuff anymore. They're just bitter and trolly. Post an item you love in a public chat, outside of like a legendary in GW2. "Grats I got that 10 years ago" and comments akin to that. People not only got accustomed to shops and cosmetics, but just generally got real bitter and MMOs just aren't enjoyable adventuring co-op games anymore. Just platforms for no lifers to continue bitterly wasting their lives.
Point at 6 minutes, Pax Dei seems to want to change this. and so far it's going alright. Game needs a lot of work, but it's on the path of being a good game.
You finally started playing (maybe even talking about?) old school runescape!
This is why you record sound and visuals on seperate devices Kira. Just in case.
The best mmo for me was honestly Once Human.
It's not fair to call it an mmo, but it has a feel of a very good mmo. This is a game that made me actually cooperate with my friends. You get special randomized skills there that benefit your character and your guild in different ways. And we had so much fun just making different crafting tables for each other, waiting for someone to go online to make a specific craft they and no one else has.
I've finally had some meaningful interactions with other players while trading, and not just "give this here's the money"
the major problem with the game is end game progression, the lack there of in builds and sets, and the trickle feeding of gear, through the obsurdly limited starcrom. You should be able to have 4-8 builds by the end of each season, and not struggling to have 2 different builds, it punishes players that are new to the game, as well as returners that did not progress the meta enough. They on top make sure you need to play through multiple seasons to have perfected gear. This design should not exist in any progression system. I do like the seasonal nature and wipes. but when they make the gear progression catered to meta progression, that's when you lose a decent amount of my interest.
At this progression you're gonna stream from an uninhabited island 😂 Not that I mind though. Good to see you back.
Tbh, cash shop fashion vs earned visual gear is why I stopped playing gw2. Along with the level scaling and horizontal progression not being something that kept me engaged. RvRvR was great tho.
These days even MMOs with visual progression would just end up being P2W. Not by the devs but people would just sell boosting services up the ass for the hardest content so you'd still just be able to say that people swiped to get their gear. The gaming industry and players both just aren't innocent anymore and everywhere where there's an opportunity to make money someone will do it.
Aah, basically Kira is discussing Merit!! Yes, this is not a favorable performance in this day and age. You know having to actually work towards a goal.
I played Guild Wars 1 back in the day because I was too broke for monthly subscriptions. Hate if you want but at least when I played it, the only pay to win in that game was black market gold trading. I became “P***ysmasher 7” just through effort and enjoyment 😂
Miss those days but times have changed pure and simple
I like when commentators turn the mirror around and talk about the role that apathetic, content-hungry users have played in the enshitification of games.
Only thing that mostly consistent in MMO's "visual progression" is that endgame gears are somehow more revealing than no equipment at all
Hey he’s back yay.❤