Great chat! At one point, Shaelin, you mention 'for another episode' and I gotta say that I love this format. Your chat about writing with Sophie is awesome to hear. Maybe it's my bias, as a casual podcaster, but I hope you'll both make time for more of these.
That's interesting how external events can impact art, you've said that a part of a struggle with pandemic writing was lack of contact with real world and real people. I now find myself experiencing kind of the opposite, my current work is about war and now that there's a real war in my country (Ukraine) I somehow can barely write anymore. The real experience is so overwhelmingly real I feel like I almost disrespect the reality by awkwardly oversimplifying it in my writing. Also yeah, now I limit my writing ideas so people on the internet don't assume I'm retelling the real war or inserting political subtext about this war lol.
I can't imagine the stress/fear/uncertainty of your situation, let alone the kinds of pressures that would put on your art. I hope you and your loved ones are safe
So good to have a another writer with you . I love this video from you . You are always my inspiration when I'm writing. Can't wait for the next video . 😃
And finally: my skin isn't particularly thick, but I no longer worry about other people's idea that I've self-inserted. It's already half-true because I scatter my random thoughts as gifts to every character based on which character would think what. The MC of my current project also shares a lot of my backstory, except she does things with her anxiety and pain that I would never do. So what if I'm a basic bitch among authors? The work will outlive me.
'A little bit of success skews your expectations' is a daunting phrase. Editors are always looking for new talent and they make their names with their discoveries. They enjoy their power. Over half a century ago James Purdy skewered New York publishing with his novel *Abbot Wright Begins* (1964). Do not despair : A first-time novelist won the Booker Prize. Do not presume : Many well-established novelists write the same book again and again.
Having come back to this video yet again, I appreciate (whether or not you intended to frame it this way) the fact that themes of a book and consequences of character's actions are closely tied ... and then having the right title reflects well on it too.
Cool to see this kind of long form discussion content from you! Would love to see more. Also that last point was spot on, people forgiving extreme characters more than realistic characters bc they're uncomfortably real
Great conversation! I think we overthink whether a character is perceived as ourselves or not. I was caught in this trap before, until I just stopped thinking about it and it made my character creation less stressful and smoother.
I've been meaning to watch this. Great conversation. You can't control how your work is received. There will always be readers out there who will interpret characters as Mary Sues no matter what you do. Don't let it hamper your creativity.
I'm so happy you posted this chat. I'm just starting my querying journey and the rejections are trickling in. One agent gave me a lovely personalized note with the rejection which definitely took some of the sting out. It never gets any easier but I'm glad I'm not the only one suffering.
Agents have to make a living and are savvy about what is selling at the moment, so a number of fiction writers in Britain are being published by a crowd-funded imprint. And a number of small presses are springing up which publish paperback fiction as attractive looking as any that are mass produced.
I came back to this video today and paid close attention to the section about expecting perfection. And because I'm a huge animation nerd, it reminded me of a piece of Warner Bros. history: Chuck Jones was someone who in the 50s both loved and envied the directors at UPA (a company that did cartoons for Columbia). UPA was known for their very heady, philosophical concepts in their cartoons. So Chuck started shifting his focus away from the Bugs Bunny / Daffy Duck stuff and more to standalone concepts. One of his early tries was "One Froggy Evening" and sure enough it was the perfection he was trying to achieve. But as the years went by with him trying to duplicate that same energy, audiences weren't responding to things from him that were designed to be perfect. That's partly why when Warner Bros. fired him in 1962, he wasn't in the mood to fight them over it. Hope the connection here makes sense. :)
that was so interesting to listen to! you should totally think about making a long-term podcast!!! hearing about your experience with rejection helped me a lot, thanks!!
great vid! I've never really planned on publishing, or even putting my work up for evaluation in general, for a lot of the reasons you covered here, but hearing y'all go over it all grounded my worries in reality, enough that it's mentally become a possiblity for me. not any time soon, seeing as I'm. a teenager. but it's nice to know the option exists when I'm ready! also really appreciated the section on the "perfect short story," it's tempting for me to believe that if I just check all the right boxes then I'll have the Ultimate Short Story, but it just. doesnt work like that. was nice to see that it wasnt just me being mad at this, is what Im saying! loved the part on self inserts lol!! *no* my character is *not* a self insert, I'm cooler smarter better looking etc etc! and yeah I also hate hate hate the whole, 'the more something strays from the """""default type of person"""" the more likely it is to be accused of being a self insert thing, like maybe the character is just autistic! maybe theyre just transgender! I find those situations wild for kinda the opposite reasons y'all did, because I do sometimes make self-inserts for more personal works and it's like. if it were a self-insert, you'd *know*, this bitch is a hot mess!! /lh anyways sorry if this comment was an incomprehensible mess! it is nearly five in the morning where I'm at ksjdf but the point is basically I really liked this video and it resonated a lot! I understand if such a long one doesnt happen again, but if it does, looking forward to it!! (also I wasnt really sure where to put this? but I feel like I should let you know that using narcissist as in insult is ableist towards people with npd, and generally more specific (ha!) replacements are better, stuck-up, self-absorbed, etc. not sure if it was you or sophie who used it that way tbh, and I cant find the timestamp, but I figured it was worth mentioning! /nm)
The internalized|externalized characterization discourse is important: it plays so well in both the And, But, Therefore (Agreement:Conflict=>Consequences) & Plot Embryo (redux of hero’s journey). There is a little Bob Ross point people need to cogitate on: you need the dark to bring out the light. In Bob’s The Joy of Painting episodes he was talking about the chiaroscuro play make the foreground subject pop. The best inoculation to Mary Sue characters would be the dark contrast. The internal versus external contradictions.
Great discussion. The most interesting part was about character consequences and how to weave that into a book, especially the more subtler actions. Since you said it took you a while to get a hold of it, I wonder if you could create a video sharing what you've learned about writing consequences into a story and what you do now to have a better handle on that. It's actually something I've never thought about and I imagine many others haven't either, but it seems like a really valuable subject matter.
I'm trying to just read your short stories, which I was reading about living in Eden... And that story was a amazing. Except I hadn't finished it I fell to sleep. I'm slowly, I mean slowly like a turtle 🐢 trying to make it through your short stories at the moment. And I'm reading 3 books at once, Nancy Drew is so awesome! I need a nap 😴,lol
Yeah, the taste of success WILL make certain failures sting more. I have 20 unproduced plays and a handful of mental health issues to prove it. I'm very curious if you'll whip together a video about the now 100 books that have 1 million + votes on Goodreads, and what you think affects how books are publicly received / which ones are more likely to become popular.
Great discussion. Also I see it is 1 years old, but I think you haven't had videos with similar setups, so if you have the mic setup this way, it is better if you don't tap on the table. Love your channel :)
Cool talk! All that was missing was some low-volume lofi music in the background and the video would've been as aesthetically pleasant as it was enjoyable and insightful 🌸
The first story I published is hot garbage, and I cringe at it. But I still get random emails from people complimenting it years later and asking if I'm going to continue it. (It's a horror story with an ambiguous ending)
I've yet to watch the video so I'm hoping I can get advice on how to cope with the FEAR™ that people will think a character is a self insert. I fear this, mostly because while my characters aren't self inserts, I do generally put parts of myself (good and bad) in them. in that sense, writing feels like a diary.
I only write short stories that are off the wall and have nothing happening. I don't know how to write normal a normal short story, if such a beast exists. All my novel ideas are pretty normal though.
Shaelin: as marketing and building your brand, you need to explore doing this type of format. Maybe not so long, and editing it's chapter content, with a blackout, giving what each topic is about, then going into that chapter. Even if it's just you and your roommate... that will work for now. Until you get better idea flow to go down. Word is to Capitolize on this, for your benefit. Could mean possible everything under the sun. To possible become your own publishing company, and marketing and selling yourself, or whatever. Book idea 💡: I think your dark, you want to be dark... but... it might be scary for you to come out like that. You might try to write a very dark story. Details, are left up to you. Something you will have to explore about your own internal darkness. Don't wait, but start working on #2 author blog podcast. Don't put alot of thought in it, just do it. You tend to over think about things. You are your worst enemy. Just do it...
Do people really read female characters as versions of female authors? That has never occurred to me. I never here anyone on BookTube ever mention that kind of idea.
Yeah, it's very common. Pretty much any female author who writes a female lead that in some vague way has something in common with them will be accused of writing a self-insert.
Who has time to watch an hour plus video 😡😠😤 I tend to never watch anything this long... I avoid such. But I hope this a one time flag ship. The 400 billion guitar songs I'm learning and writing my 7th Novel, and what I am up to about my 30th or something novel read this year. ARRAHHHHH!!!! SHALELIN! 🧐
"Female-coded person." It's ok to just say "woman," sometimes, when referring to "female-coded persons" who are female. Also I don't think it's true that white men are assumed to be the "default." That hasn't been true for a long time, especially in the publishing industry. White male authors get called out all the time for writing silly self-insert boyish wish-fulfillment characters.
![เปิดใจ "อาจารย์เบียร์ คนตื่นธรรม" อดีตเคยสุดทุกทาง ถ้าใช้หนี้หมดไปบวชแน่ l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IxeE0xVhy08/mqdefault.jpg)
PRE-ORDER SOPHIE’S DEBUT POETRY COLLECTION ‘BRAT’ www.gordonhillpress.com/collections/titles/products/brat #jointheratking
To have another friend who is a writer is really invaluable. I'm forever grateful for my friends who are writers.
It really is!! My writing friends mean the world to me!
Great chat! At one point, Shaelin, you mention 'for another episode' and I gotta say that I love this format. Your chat about writing with Sophie is awesome to hear. Maybe it's my bias, as a casual podcaster, but I hope you'll both make time for more of these.
I definitely hope to do more!
That's interesting how external events can impact art, you've said that a part of a struggle with pandemic writing was lack of contact with real world and real people. I now find myself experiencing kind of the opposite, my current work is about war and now that there's a real war in my country (Ukraine) I somehow can barely write anymore. The real experience is so overwhelmingly real I feel like I almost disrespect the reality by awkwardly oversimplifying it in my writing.
Also yeah, now I limit my writing ideas so people on the internet don't assume I'm retelling the real war or inserting political subtext about this war lol.
I can't imagine the stress/fear/uncertainty of your situation, let alone the kinds of pressures that would put on your art. I hope you and your loved ones are safe
@@ShaelinWrites thank you Shaelin
So good to have a another writer with you . I love this video from you . You are always my inspiration when I'm writing. Can't wait for the next video . 😃
YESSS another video with sophie ive been waiting for this moment
And finally: my skin isn't particularly thick, but I no longer worry about other people's idea that I've self-inserted. It's already half-true because I scatter my random thoughts as gifts to every character based on which character would think what. The MC of my current project also shares a lot of my backstory, except she does things with her anxiety and pain that I would never do. So what if I'm a basic bitch among authors? The work will outlive me.
'A little bit of success skews your expectations' is a daunting phrase.
Editors are always looking for new talent and they make their names with their discoveries. They enjoy their power.
Over half a century ago James Purdy skewered New York publishing with his novel *Abbot Wright Begins* (1964).
Do not despair : A first-time novelist won the Booker Prize. Do not presume : Many well-established novelists write the same book again and again.
Love these longer formats, you two are great at bouncing off each other with cool and smart insights on your own process!
Having come back to this video yet again, I appreciate (whether or not you intended to frame it this way) the fact that themes of a book and consequences of character's actions are closely tied ... and then having the right title reflects well on it too.
I don't listen to any podcasts at the moment, but this made me think I'd listen the hell out of conversations with friends (about writing) with y'all.
Agreed. This made me want a writing with friends podcast series. :D
My favorite author chat I’ve ever heard🤩
this is so random but your hairstyles are 👌👌👌
"i have neither girlhood nor sexuality" damn... im foaming at the mouth waiting to read Sybil
sophie's book cover is GORGEOUS
Every single time you mention Sybil I get more excited about Honey Vinegar. I cannot WAIT until I get to read this book!
Cool to see this kind of long form discussion content from you! Would love to see more. Also that last point was spot on, people forgiving extreme characters more than realistic characters bc they're uncomfortably real
I don't have any writer friends so I think that's why I liked this so much
1:08:47 "Oh no, it's about to happen... I've flown too close to the sun!" ☀️🕊😭😂
Great conversation! I think we overthink whether a character is perceived as ourselves or not. I was caught in this trap before, until I just stopped thinking about it and it made my character creation less stressful and smoother.
I've been meaning to watch this. Great conversation. You can't control how your work is received. There will always be readers out there who will interpret characters as Mary Sues no matter what you do. Don't let it hamper your creativity.
An hour long video from Shae the Mighty????? I've never been more excited
I'm so happy you posted this chat. I'm just starting my querying journey and the rejections are trickling in. One agent gave me a lovely personalized note with the rejection which definitely took some of the sting out. It never gets any easier but I'm glad I'm not the only one suffering.
Agents have to make a living and are savvy about what is selling at the moment, so a number of fiction writers in Britain are being published by a crowd-funded imprint.
And a number of small presses are springing up which publish paperback fiction as attractive looking as any that are mass produced.
I came back to this video today and paid close attention to the section about expecting perfection. And because I'm a huge animation nerd, it reminded me of a piece of Warner Bros. history:
Chuck Jones was someone who in the 50s both loved and envied the directors at UPA (a company that did cartoons for Columbia). UPA was known for their very heady, philosophical concepts in their cartoons. So Chuck started shifting his focus away from the Bugs Bunny / Daffy Duck stuff and more to standalone concepts. One of his early tries was "One Froggy Evening" and sure enough it was the perfection he was trying to achieve. But as the years went by with him trying to duplicate that same energy, audiences weren't responding to things from him that were designed to be perfect. That's partly why when Warner Bros. fired him in 1962, he wasn't in the mood to fight them over it.
Hope the connection here makes sense. :)
Great video!! Love the conversational format
that was so interesting to listen to! you should totally think about making a long-term podcast!!! hearing about your experience with rejection helped me a lot, thanks!!
great vid! I've never really planned on publishing, or even putting my work up for evaluation in general, for a lot of the reasons you covered here, but hearing y'all go over it all grounded my worries in reality, enough that it's mentally become a possiblity for me. not any time soon, seeing as I'm. a teenager. but it's nice to know the option exists when I'm ready! also really appreciated the section on the "perfect short story," it's tempting for me to believe that if I just check all the right boxes then I'll have the Ultimate Short Story, but it just. doesnt work like that. was nice to see that it wasnt just me being mad at this, is what Im saying!
loved the part on self inserts lol!! *no* my character is *not* a self insert, I'm cooler smarter better looking etc etc! and yeah I also hate hate hate the whole, 'the more something strays from the """""default type of person"""" the more likely it is to be accused of being a self insert thing, like maybe the character is just autistic! maybe theyre just transgender! I find those situations wild for kinda the opposite reasons y'all did, because I do sometimes make self-inserts for more personal works and it's like. if it were a self-insert, you'd *know*, this bitch is a hot mess!! /lh
anyways sorry if this comment was an incomprehensible mess! it is nearly five in the morning where I'm at ksjdf but the point is basically I really liked this video and it resonated a lot! I understand if such a long one doesnt happen again, but if it does, looking forward to it!!
(also I wasnt really sure where to put this? but I feel like I should let you know that using narcissist as in insult is ableist towards people with npd, and generally more specific (ha!) replacements are better, stuck-up, self-absorbed, etc. not sure if it was you or sophie who used it that way tbh, and I cant find the timestamp, but I figured it was worth mentioning! /nm)
This was a delightful video! I would be very interested in seeing more like it.
Fun vid. Keep writing & never give up. I went fishing for four days in a row. I caught six fish on day four., none on the other three :)
Never give up hard times come and go but hard work last forever
Totally needed this!
When I listen to you, I get the feeling you shall some day win a Nobel prize...for literature. Keep going.
Shaelin, good for you.
The internalized|externalized characterization discourse is important: it plays so well in both the And, But, Therefore (Agreement:Conflict=>Consequences) & Plot Embryo (redux of hero’s journey). There is a little Bob Ross point people need to cogitate on: you need the dark to bring out the light. In Bob’s The Joy of Painting episodes he was talking about the chiaroscuro play make the foreground subject pop. The best inoculation to Mary Sue characters would be the dark contrast. The internal versus external contradictions.
Great discussion. The most interesting part was about character consequences and how to weave that into a book, especially the more subtler actions. Since you said it took you a while to get a hold of it, I wonder if you could create a video sharing what you've learned about writing consequences into a story and what you do now to have a better handle on that. It's actually something I've never thought about and I imagine many others haven't either, but it seems like a really valuable subject matter.
I'm trying to just read your short stories, which I was reading about living in Eden... And that story was a amazing. Except I hadn't finished it I fell to sleep. I'm slowly, I mean slowly like a turtle 🐢 trying to make it through your short stories at the moment. And I'm reading 3 books at once, Nancy Drew is so awesome! I need a nap 😴,lol
okay,,, but sophie's tattoo and makeup?? pretty!!!
their looks are always *iconic*
Yeah, the taste of success WILL make certain failures sting more. I have 20 unproduced plays and a handful of mental health issues to prove it.
I'm very curious if you'll whip together a video about the now 100 books that have 1 million + votes on Goodreads, and what you think affects how books are publicly received / which ones are more likely to become popular.
Great discussion. Also I see it is 1 years old, but I think you haven't had videos with similar setups, so if you have the mic setup this way, it is better if you don't tap on the table. Love your channel :)
I love your Shirt, Shaelin! Does someone know where I could buy something like that? Thanks in advance!
Cool talk! All that was missing was some low-volume lofi music in the background and the video would've been as aesthetically pleasant as it was enjoyable and insightful 🌸
The first story I published is hot garbage, and I cringe at it. But I still get random emails from people complimenting it years later and asking if I'm going to continue it. (It's a horror story with an ambiguous ending)
Does Sophie’s collection ship internationally? Would love to check it out but I’m based in Southeast Asia.
I’m actually not sure! You might have to just put in your address and see if it’ll ship to you?
0:51:00 & 0:52:00 Remember my name, FAAAAME, I wanna live for ever… I wanna learn how to fly, HIGH!
More of this.
I've yet to watch the video so I'm hoping I can get advice on how to cope with the FEAR™ that people will think a character is a self insert. I fear this, mostly because while my characters aren't self inserts, I do generally put parts of myself (good and bad) in them. in that sense, writing feels like a diary.
You describing your story’s theme reminds me of Halsey’s new shit, which is STUNNING if you haven’t heard it.
I only write short stories that are off the wall and have nothing happening. I don't know how to write normal a normal short story, if such a beast exists. All my novel ideas are pretty normal though.
Podcast when?
Shaelin: as marketing and building your brand, you need to explore doing this type of format.
Maybe not so long, and editing it's chapter content, with a blackout, giving what each topic is about, then going into that chapter.
Even if it's just you and your roommate... that will work for now. Until you get better idea flow to go down.
Word is to Capitolize on this, for your benefit. Could mean possible everything under the sun. To possible become your own publishing company, and marketing and selling yourself, or whatever.
Book idea 💡: I think your dark, you want to be dark... but... it might be scary for you to come out like that. You might try to write a very dark story. Details, are left up to you. Something you will have to explore about your own internal darkness.
Don't wait, but start working on #2 author blog podcast. Don't put alot of thought in it, just do it. You tend to over think about things.
You are your worst enemy. Just do it...
this is based
Do people really read female characters as versions of female authors? That has never occurred to me. I never here anyone on BookTube ever mention that kind of idea.
Yeah, it's very common. Pretty much any female author who writes a female lead that in some vague way has something in common with them will be accused of writing a self-insert.
8:00
Who has time to watch an hour plus video 😡😠😤
I tend to never watch anything this long... I avoid such. But I hope this a one time flag ship.
The 400 billion guitar songs I'm learning and writing my 7th Novel, and what I am up to about my 30th or something novel read this year. ARRAHHHHH!!!!
SHALELIN! 🧐
Love the collab! But the amount of times she said 'like' was a little distracting.
"Female-coded person." It's ok to just say "woman," sometimes, when referring to "female-coded persons" who are female.
Also I don't think it's true that white men are assumed to be the "default." That hasn't been true for a long time, especially in the publishing industry. White male authors get called out all the time for writing silly self-insert boyish wish-fulfillment characters.
We’re both non-binary lol that’s why we didn’t refer to ourselves as women