Why I Discovery Write | 9 Ways It's Made My Writing Better!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ค. 2024
- Scripted this to be a top 10 and just...skipped one of the points accidentally. Can't even successfully follow an outline for a 20 minute video.
0:00 - Intro
5:05 - The story will naturally self-diagnose
7:32 - Better characters
9:41 - More information available to make decisions
10:55 - It's easier to make big changes
12:03 - Richer prose and scenes
15:25 - More confidence
17:09 - It's easier to manage information
18:00 - More immersive, intuitive writing
19:52 - It's more like life
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I feel the same way about all of this! Love the way you articulate the benefits. Sometimes it's so hard to articulately explain.
Honestly trying to explain it is the hardest thing!! Our brains work in mysterious ways haha
AGH, I love you Alexa! I love you both, but so cool to see Alexa commenting here.
Totally agree. It is articulated very well. Funny that you don't know how to explain why you are discovery writing and why plotting just doesn't work for you. Then you hear her explain it and it is just like "yeah! That's exactly why😀"
Wow ! Great to see Alexa Donne here 😍🎉🎊🎉🎊🎉🎊🎉
I tend to watch both channels and more so when I was on my first book. Both ladies are absolute gems in how they present relevant content simply.
#Shaelinwrites
#AlexaDonne
Best wishes to both of you 😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
Omggg I didn't expect to see Alexa here!❤️
When I "discovery" write, I feel as if I'm simultaneously reading and writing the story; as a reader, I'm excited to find out what happens next, as a writer I can make things happen any way I want them to. But plotting also works when 1) I know all the major plot points (and there aren't that many of them), and 2) I approach it as if writing the story, concentrating on just the essentials. Essentially like a very rough draft.
“if i see math, i want to pass out” this is what describes my life right now
So true
Lol, physics and maths undergraduate student in love with discovery writing here. For me maths has a lot to do with intuition in the same kind of playful way that discovery writing does. But with an upcoming exam, I will say that I am also passing out right now haha
I feel like I fall somewhere smack dab between being a discovery writer and a plotter because I need the major plot points and ending before I go in to have something to work toward and because plot is my weakest element. And I also need to do enough world-building to pin down the sort of world these characters exist in because I mainly write fantasy. But once I have those major plot points and world-building elements, all the rest is filled in by discovery writing. This process makes it easier for me as someone who hates writing chronologically. Knowing just enough about my story let’s me jump around, but not knowing everything keeps drafting exciting and allows me to be super open to changing aspects of the story and just going where the characters pull me.
This is super relatable! I also often find having a few main plot points and then bridging them together with discovery writing is the way to go!
That is exactly how I approach my stories, too!
same here!
Yes! I've been doing this for my current WIP and drafting has never gone so well!
So in tune with you. I can't outline. I change my mind too much. I prefer to let my characters lead me and discover as I go along.
That elitism is definitely there, even for somebody like me who only writes for myself. I felt bad for not being able to do stuff "on purpose" or like I was too unfocused or bad at a craft that I only picked up to bring myself joy. I have a lot of trouble with having the whole story laid out right in front of me; it's too much pressure to have everything figured out before I can even really get started.
Doing stuff NOT on purpose that fit perfectly into what I want is one of the best feelings in writing for me.
I tend to plan as I write, sometimes I just go "yeah, this will lead to that later" or I just remember something else had happened before that can have effects now. There's this part closer to the end where I know everything that's going to happen and it's hard for me to get through.
In my last book, I got to the point where I knew less but still has major plot ahead of me and my characters literally started a housefire that I hadn't predicted. I was about to erase it when it clicked and suddenly that housefire connected where I was to where I wanted to be.
The only elitism I've experienced has been the opposite way! Pantsers constantly put down planners as "clinical", "unimaginative", "not real writers". Especially since Stephen King published 'On Writing.
I 👍 agree
I found out in the very very hard way that outlining kills the story for me. I've killed one. Started writing, then decided to be all Organised and In Control. Once I made the outline, my brain decided "Ok, work done, no more imagining new stuff for you" and I was left with a handful of scenes and a skeleton of a story that I could not fill in. And when I tried, it was seriously some BAD writing. And it was exhausting.
So what I do is allow my brain to show me as many possible scenes as I can catch and write them down. Once caught and typed, I give them order/logical flow and THEN see if there is stuff missing in between. I mark missing scenes to be written and work on them in whatever order my brain allows me to. BUT if it turns out some of them go a bit awry... I let them. Then I edit, edit, edit.
Yes, it requires redoing a lot, because maybe one scene opens with something that isn't linked to how the previous one ended. But I can do that. Multiple edit runs are OK, because they give me a finished product, which is readable and, dare I say, GOOD. While making an outline would give me... an outline. And no book at all.
(and yeah, I've heard people going HOW CAN YOU JUST WRITE...!?!?!?)
Yep, I killed a book like that too - I outlined because I was working on a different project, and I didn’t want to forget that one. Now I have an outline I barely remember exists 😂
Underwriting! That's exactly what happens most of the time I've tried plotting. As a discovery writer, I have much more success. I guess I'm not rushing scenes when I let what happens next grow organically.
I went on a writing course and they were furious that I didn't do an outline and they made me feel like I was never going to be a succeed as a writer because I was doing it wrong. Thank you so much for this video
OMG.. someone in my shoes. I so NEEDED this video.❤
I write like a potter. I make a sketch. A good story concept fits in one sentence. That sentence is my clay. From there I just start adding detail to it until it is super detailed. Then I go over it and cut out things that drag the plot out and I am left with some shards that are really good on their own, but need fitting together. After many long nights of a lot of coffee and nature ASMR the shards stick together and make a coherent story.
Harry Potter zhzhzh Sorry haha I had to do it
I never thought about this thing you said, that you see the story in tiny bits and details more than from a zoomed out position. I do exactly the same, and it was so obvious when I tried outlining, cause I ended up changing a LOT of crucial parts when writing, cause they didn't fit in the little ideas I had lol
I think you should start Coofl page to improve yourself, concept drive you to think.
@@muratcelik6228 What is Coofl page? Sorry, english isn't my first language..
@@josefinasotes796 Kind of microblogging platform, but you can only post dictionary style definitions, not have to be correct for everyone.
@@muratcelik6228 so it's like a webpage to do that? Imma look for that, Thanks!!
“In real life there is no outline…” Spot on! And such a liberation it is… Loved that one.
21:00 "I know you hate outlining, that it's no fun to you but this isn't about having fun; writing is art!"
I too hate when people think like that.
Art is about meaning and emotion. If one doesn't feel right doing it, it's going to disturb their creative process.
One of the most common advice I give to people with Writer's Block is that if they can't make themselves write, if something doesn't feel right, they should try to connect with their work again and get rid of what doesn't feel right. Feelings are immensely powerful tools, use them wisely. Even a lightsaber left on a shelf can't do shit.
bruh when you started talking about previously established character motivations no longer working because the character has changed so much....... i felt so SEEN,,, great video btw, you've definitely been a great help in assuaging the squirmy guilt i used to get whenever I heard somebody talk about the NECESSITY of outlining
Every writer has their own style.
Unless you do a course... and kinda HAVE to..
This describes me exactly. I've always been told I NEED to outline. Outlining completely destroys my ability to create or think about my story. So I just stopped writing altogether. I don't know why I never just tried to discovery write again, but this video was so validating to hear! Thank you!
I'm an incorrigible planner-out - and I'm impressed with your discovery method, too! I would like to do that but I flounder without a plan.
In a sense you do discovery write even with an outline, because when you get to the actual writing, you discover things that conflict with the outline and you have to choose which feels right.
@@ChaoticVampire That is very true.
9:30 "The plot moves based on what the characters want". That's so accurate! I like plotting a story trajectory at the beginning, it's like a safety net. But my characters often stray from the outline as they grow. I'm not the best at reading people so it takes a while for me to understand who a character really is. The sooner they diverge from the plan, the greater the impact on the rest of the story. The structure doesn't change drastically but the motivations along the way certainly do. I'm sure many employ a blend of discovery writing and outlining.
i also found that outlining sometimes made me come up with really convoluted and prescriptive motivations for my characters. i think because i was trying to make things a little too logical? Too basic? I mean i was too concerned about making things look good on paper because I was literally writing all this subtext out on paper. Plus i wasn't experiencing any emotion because I wasn't in the character's headspace, so I couldn't even tell how superficial I was being
I thought I absolutely could not write a novel without having an extremely detailed, chapter by chapter outline and full character profiles, life stories, the works. But I was constantly hitting brick walls with my novel. I watched this and decided to try just discovery writing it and seeing what happened, and wow. What a world of difference. The plot is coming together so much easier now, the world and characters feel more real, and I'm just having so much more fun with it. It definitely feels more immersive which I love! I have a vague idea of the arcs for each main character and the overall direction of the plot, but I'm discovering how to get there through actually writing it rather than planning. I can't tell you how glad I am that I watched this video and gave it a shot. Thank you!
I love outlining stories but I hate writing stories that I've outlined, so I end up not writing them at all. That's why I also prefer to discovery write. Great video as always, Shaelin :)
I resonate so much with observant writing! There's just something fundamentally different about vague would-be plot points vs writing in the moment in the scene :D
the first point is SO relatable. Whenever I go in a direction that won't work my brain lets me know near immediately and until I retry a certain scene or moment I simply cannot go forward. In a way I'm happy about it because I can never go too far without feeling like something needs to go differently, and when I can finally pass I feel really good about what I have for that part.
I think the way I write is that I have these certain plot points but what happens in them and how they get to an outcome or what that outcome is is completely procedural. For example, over the first four chapters of my novel I had a mystery playing out that goes right up to the inciting incident. How that mystery unfolded? I had no clue until I got to each chapter. I knew what I wanted to come of the inciting incident but how it got there? I couldn't have told you. And sometimes while I'm writing I end up taking myself on a completely different ride and adapt what happens next from that instead.
im always so impressed by people who can discovery write! i need a super detailed outline to start writing or i end up running out of ideas or backing myself into a corner, and i feel like i can actually enjoy playing around with the writing once i've outlined the plot. i really enjoyed hearing your perspective as someone who has a totally different experience!
i run out of ideas when outlining haha
Writing or any other project - I always work from large scale to details and make a absolutely detailed and systematic plan before starting anything more "final". So I'm 110% outliner. This video feels really nice. After seeing it I think it might be better if i sort of half way discovery write few parts of my book. I have some plan but cannot get a proper grip on these parts somehow. Half way discovery writing might be just what is needed.
You can do it! I have the same problem, I always get stuck but outlines don't seem to help me. So I've decided to plan three things :the people, the world, and only necessary events that fit the genre. Then I'll discovery write with those as my foundation so when I do get stuck ill have that to fall back on. But I don't need to stick to a detailed outline either. That's what seems to help me
So true, I love to write intuitively as well it's just much more enjoyable to see what the work wants to become instead of having a rigid framework imo, the creative process is a fluid one
I also think it's so important to WRITE the story to truly understand the characters and how they act/react/are. So most of the time I'll just start writing (pantsing) to get a feel for the characters and the environment, and THEN I'll go back and flesh out an outline knowing what I now know.
This. Video. Shaelin. I just needed this, and it came to me at the right time. I have TRIED for YEARS to finish my 200th draft of an old story, and I just could not! And when you said that its like you are Experiencing the story with pantsing, and RETELLING the story with outlining, it all came together for me. I am NOT an outliner! I really really wants to, my perfectionism (and maybe even a bit of undiagnosed autism) really wants me to, but my ADHD DONT want the effing MATH and outline! It is killing my creativity. THIS video convinced me I am not an outliner. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! *Opening a blank page, being excited for the first time in forever
Thank you for explaining so thoroughly exactly why I've been struggling. I always had thin extraneous useless scenes...and it took me seven drafts (all of which were first drafts because I chucked each one out and started over). Going to discovery write my next novel.
Ooh, I like this.
I'm a discovery writer because that's how I've always naturally written. Often I'll have a vision, an end goal or "painting" in sight, but I need to write until I get there. I can't write down the vision itself first.
I lose my drive and end up trying too hard if I "know too much" about what comes next. It becomes more, "get to the next point", than, "explore what's happening now".
Not to mention, I rarely know enough about my story when I start it, to make an outline in the first place.
I love this video and totally agree with all you said. I love just jumping in and seeing where it goes. I do start with a "superficial" outline, like artsy girl meets skater boy and they fall in love, and by the end it's like a gymnast on her way to the olympics gets hurt in a trampoline accident and pushes through her grief by painting. One of her pieces is selected to be printed on shirts by a skateboarding company executive who falls in love with the girl, teaches her to skate, and she goes on to win an Olympic gold medal in skateboarding...see on the spot, just like that, so much fun 😂💕
Did you actually write that? That plot is really good.
@@kaylajames9334Thanks 😅 but no and honestly I'll probably never, I don't want to do all the research on Olympics and running skateboarding companies. Consider the idea creative commons 🤗
@@amandarandomtube4793 lol. Cool. Thanks.
This is such an apt description of exactly how I feel. Once I outline I’m no longer invested in the story. It’s like the story has already been birthed.
I if try to outline, my mind goes blank. I need to discovery write at least half the story. I don't know my characters until they begin to act and speak. Discovery writing allows me to delve into the compost heap of my unconscious. People emerge, places, memories, etc. Only when I know them well do I sketch a few final scenes to get to the denouement.
What I need to begin is a premise, a title, a couple of characters, an idea of the climax and an idea of the end. Once I was riding the bus, just staring blankly out the window (I'm not American. My country has efficient public transportation), when suddenly I realized my climax was going the wrong way and a most effective and original alternative hit me right between the eyebrows. I went home, threw about three chapters away and started again. (On my mom's Smith Corona. Yes, I'm that old.) I was happy. That's the whole point.
I am so glad I clicked on this video. I've been watching you for years. I think my journey as a writer started off as me consuming as much content about writing as possible. Then, I tried to write a book, a very bad book 😂 Then I took a couple years off and completed my degree in Psych. I wrote my first full length novel in 2019, using an outline, but I learned that my drafts are SO much better when I don't plot. And, you just made it very clear as to why.
The bit about "remembering the scene" vs being present for it as you discover the scene really stuck with me. I think you're also spot on with being able to continue when something isn't working with an outline, rather than being forced to deal with it right away.
I don't think I would have finished my book without the Outline, BUT I've noticed a steep decline in the quality of the draft with an outline. So going forward, I'm not going to outline that way anymore.
You legit just spoke my entire thought process! Ive been worried that i was doing it wrong because I recently realized I'm a discovery writer and I've watched SO many videos of other writers basically bashing on it and saying that the characters and plot would all fall flat etc... but this definitely reassured me!
When you said "experiencing" vs "remembering" I was sold and subscribed! Keep up the good work.
Thank you so much! I didn't realise I needed this video, but after watching and listening to your thoughts on discovery writing I think it is totally my method! I've been writing this way without proper understanding of such fact.
And yeah, I'm learning not to rush, slow down a bit and just enjoy writing, because that's why I started. Thank you very, very much!🌸💖
I watched some of your videos, but never would think you’re a discovery writer, you seem a bit too well put together ;)
When I happily announced myself as a pantser in search for other pantsers in some writing groups I was usually “patted on the head” as the stupid one who’s unable to write an outline, as if writing an outline is actually complicated. So I absolutely get why most pantsers/discovery writers feel “less than”.
For me the greatest breakthrough in accepting that it’s ok to be a pantser was reading “Writing into the dark”. I still need to implement the “outline as you go/write down what happened so far” process he’s talking about there, because it seems that my ability to hold the story in my head ends at about 30k, so knowing where my ducks are, even if I don’t really intend to heard them into one row seems like a great thing to do.
I do think there’s a correlation, that plotters write more plot-focused and pantsers more character-focused.
The one novella I did outline I did write really fast, that was nice 😂. But I did underwrite it even more than I usually do, and in the edits I do have to add about 2x words, especially when comes to characters and the heart of the story. It’s still stuck in edits and that’s quite enough for me not to try outlining again 😂
Great to hear an encouraging video about discovery writing!
Whenever I try to outline I just get bored and start pantsing. I feel like it sucks the fun out of writing if I'm constantly planning out everything
Same
Same! A little outlining helps me, but too much kills my joy.
Same. There's no better way to kill a story for me, than to have a really detailled outline. There's no point in writing if I already know how everything goes down...
This is where my envy emerges: that you can see your work in the little particular moments. I've had a desire to get back to that, having seen my projects consistently balloon into multiple-book epics that are doomed to never be finished. It has less to do with "plotter vs. pantser" (they both seem to yield enough short-term effectiveness) than it does with personal issues i.e. the bout of alcoholism I'm working to crawl out of. Still, to be a plotter has sapped my work of any life and purpose. It's just a bunch of sentence n' syllable machinery.
I think you just exposed the writers heart for every discovery writer out there. Very eloquent. Nice job.
I am a discovery writer. I tried plotting, but it sapped my enjoyment of the writing process. It was difficult for me to change things that weren't working when I didn't want to have to alter an entire outline. And yes, I definitely felt a barrier between me and my characters. I do a lot of editing, but I think it stems more from how fast I draft and the fact that I'm an underwriter. World building is my biggest struggle, so filling in those details constitutes a large portion of my first edit.
I'M SO GLAD THIS VIDEO EXISTS!! I only ever plan ahead on the general plot, and beginnings and endings are usually the easiest for me to actually plot out. But I'm 100% a "pantser" for all the meat in my stories. Sure, I will have a general idea of scene ideas I want to happen...eventually...but getting to those points is usually discovered along the way. I also HAVE to write in chronological order. I can't jump from Chapter 1 to Chapter 10. It, as you say, keeps things more cohesive. I know where I've come from, where my characters have been, so it's easier to just write this way.
I have to say, I've had some amazing things come out of "discovery writing" with my current story, where the nature of my main character and the relationships she has with certain characters seemed to develop completely organically. I NEVER planned on my main protag being bisexual (she was going to have no love interest originally), but then it just developed...naturally. I didn't have to think about it. It's like I discovered who my character was as I kept writing.
The one thing about writing a story that outlining and pantsing will never make easier for me...is trying to get from Point A to Point B in a way that's not boring. I can't just jump STRAIGHT from one exciting scene to another. Downtime needs to happen, but downtime, like life, can be hard to properly execute, especially if a character is stuck in a certain location the whole time (like my character being a priestess and therefore being kept to the temple and not having all the freedom she wants to just travel into the city outside her walls).
The other "elitist" mindset that seems to be gospel in even the creative writing community is the whole "show don't tell" thing. I've found, through my own hobby writing, that there is a time and place for both. Not every little thing needs to be "shown", and that's okay. But that's a conversation for another time!
I am grandma who wants to learn how to tell stories better and your channel is one of the best I’ve found! Thank you for sharing your perspectives and experiences!
I definitely lean more discovery writing. One thing I've learned though is that this is not the same as no-prep writing. I've really struggled with writing where I don't quite feel like I'm hitting the right depth, and I sort of flounder, not sure if it's an neurotic internal editor or not. However, you give me time to do research on whatever topics I want to write about? Let me go full academia on whatever it is, independent of any narrative considerations? Oh man, suddenly the concepts flow a lot more smoothly, and I can diagnose things. If outline writers like to have lots of structured information at hand, by the same token, I need lots of unstructured information.
I want to say I do a combination of both...I start with an outline so I have a solid sense of direction, but often as I write the characters will inevitably do their own thing and I'll discover things about them and the story. I'll then go in and fix my outline to reflect the 'discovery' and keep going from there :P I like this though, because I think you're right, there is no 'right' way to write a story.
i've definitely always been way more of a discovery writer! i've tried to plan things more thoroughly before because i got the impression it's the "right way" to write, and i always end up feeling trapped and bored? i feel like i get my best ideas *while* i'm exploring the story, so whenever i've tried to follow an outline i feel stuck in what past-me thought was a good idea and it isn't flexible enough for present-me to work with and expand upon. whatever past-me thought was a fitting ending or an interesting climax will likely not work, because i will always change the course in some way as i write it, since i only begin to see how things truly are connected while actually writing.
particularly what you said about the character motivations stopping/starting to make sense really resonates with me! i can't accurately plan ahead to what happens in chapter 7 if i haven't even written chapter 2 yet, even if i have a vague idea, because my ideas and details WILL change as i explore it! there has been so many times where as i began writing i had an idea for a fun character moment i wanted to do, but by the time i got there it no longer made any sense for the character and/or the story, and since i hadn't based anything that happens later on it i could easily just cut it or change it and move on, which would've otherwise ripped an outline to shreds if i had made one beforehand.
i think this really ties into who i am in general, like i am not a long-term-thinking type of person at all and even just trying to plan out my whole week in a notebook beforehand makes me not want to do anything i planned to do. it's like writing out the plan in detail makes my brain feel like it is already complete, so i'm no longer interested in seeing it happen. my workaround for this in my writing (after the first draft) is making a vague, flexible bullet point list of what i would like to happen in the story, and stop it there before it gets too complicated. a vague bullet point sparks curiosity of what happens next and motivates me to go explore, while still reminding me of what i want to write!
Love this video. Thanks for a ton of wisdom as always Shaelin.
I really relate to your reasons for discovery writing. I've experienced most of these symptoms and roadblocks when I outline. Thanks for sharing your feelings so thoroughly and so well!
So happy that theres a video about discovery writing! I feel like its what i needed my whole writing journey but no one was able to tell me about it because its not a popular thing😢
Shaelin I love you, this just made me so inspired! (Your videos always do) Your rediscovering of discovery writing has made me realize that I prefer to write that way too and it’s brought my projects back to life! Thank you for everything, I look forward to the next time we hear from you!
For me, I find that understanding what the main plot conflict would be as well as the sub plot conflicts is essential.
Then I start mapping out my story by planning the character arc and figuring out how the character must change. I usually use some adaptation of popular story structures to map out this character arc (minus any actual scene ideas).
Then, I usually plan the main beats of each plot thread based on my character arc and the events that would need to occur to change the character toward the resolution of their internal conflict. It may be vague e.g., 'some conversation with mom' or 'something with the antagonist' but I think that it's important to at least anticipate the interactions that may need to occur to keep the story moving, even if the events are a mystery. I also find that this part of the process is very much part of brainstorming because just the exercise of trying to plan the main beats helps me figure out ideas for those scenes or other scenes. Sometimes having the climax planned helps to figure out what should intuitively happen in the main beats.
It's also very important for me to know how the main conflict will be resolved. I won't even consider starting if I can't see a satisfying end happening. This is especially important if there's a romance or mystery or another major promise your readers will be waiting for. If my main conflict cannot be resolved in a way that delivers this promise e.g. I created a mystery that can't be solved or if a particular subplot happens, my love story can't end happily. These kinds of issues need to be sorted out before I consider drafting.
By the end of this planning, what I usually have is this broad view of the story with an idea of how the story kicks off, the climactic event and resolution, and possibly some ideas for scenes in the middle.
From here, I'm pretty much a headlight planner. After getting to each major beat, I pause, collect all the information I've discovered about my story so far (which will be tons) then adjust my outline as I go. Sometimes, the climax changes, the end changes, a character gets a completely new arc, a new character gets added or one gets taken out or combined.
In addition to that, I make more detailed scene outlines as I write. As I write scene 1-3, I'm thinking of what would naturally happen in scenes 4 and 5 in order to take me to those major beats (which of course also possibly change as the story progresses).
I've tried the detailed outline and killed the inspiration for many stories because I felt obliged to stick to it. I've also tried discovery writing and written myself into a block that I never got out of.
This seems to be the only balance that I've found that works for me.
I admire detailed planners as well as pure pantsers. These are skills I could never master.
SUBSCRIBED!! I'm so happy to find another writer whose process is so like my own!! Thank you. 🙏🏻
I totally agree about all of this! Thanks for taking the time to articulate these points.
This is so refreshing to hear! I have always tried to outline, but it's left me feeling drained and exactly like you said - "a pane of glass" between me and the characters. I feel like so much of planning-writing happens in a different part of my brain/body than the actual writing.
Thank you for articulating what I’ve been trying to put into words for literal years!
My writing style is like this: 1. Get random idea, usually a scene popping up in my head. 2. Start writing, but also jot down notes about people and places etc that I make up on the go, to keep track of them later in the story. 3. If I come up with what happens next (sees the future) but can't write it right now (for whatever reason) I make a bullet point list to remember them, placed at the end of the story. 4. Write more, and either remove or use the ideas I had depending on where the story goes. Also add more ideas. :)
I feel so seen! Most of my best ideas come to me when I'm actively drafting. It was so liberating when I realized that this is just how my process work and I don't have to outline. I think there's something about the act of writing that turns on a new way of thinking that I can't quite achieve by just thinking or 'letting it stew'. I also noticed that if I plan too far ahead it's hard to keep myself engaged with the story because it takes out the curiosity.
Anyway thank you so much for this video! I'm going to use the term 'observant writing' soooo much from now on
Omg thank you for making this video! It’s exactly how I feel about outlining/discovery writing!
Bravo on another open-minded POV. The correct answer is usually, "it depends," and your focus on "what works for you?" is great. On top of that, you gave a clear way to identify which one works... which one do you have more fun with?! Artist or not, humans do better when they're passionate and enjoying their work.
I wrote my first novel mostly discovery but found that I needed some structure and added a simple outline midway through. From what I've learned since then, I think my next book I will outline the theme, main character motivations, inciting incident, midpoint, climax... maybe a few other really important scenes that need to happen, but then discover as I go. I definitely share the issue (as I'm more of an outliner currently) that I have too much going on in a given scene that doesn't really accomplish anything... Fortunately, I'm good at hitting DELETE.
I hadn't been able to put into words how I felt until you described that "distance" when writing with an outline, and about that dynamic of just writing one scene to move on to the next. I have been trying all sorts of things to make my outlines work and now I'm realizing I might not even need them; you described your experience with discovery writing in such a lovely way that you've inspired me to take a leap of faith and try it myself.
Also, excellent video as always!
Oh you so perfectly articulated why I love discovery writing ❤
Very interesting, especially that you're nicer to yourself. Same for me, I just didn't realise. For me, it's really a process of going back and forth between the two. I start with discovering, then I hit a writer's block which usually means I need to outline a little to get some focus and direction, then I continue writing but when I'm getting bored I know that I need to let go of the plan and follow my intuition. Sometimes, that makes me scrap the outline, sometimes it's just an extra layer of the story.... and so I go back and forth.
I am just a novice writing in my free time and not so much part of the discourse of the writing community. That's why I find it funny and surprising that so many writers think that outlining is better as you say... I would say both methods have their pitfalls. I disagree, however, that the end product is the same (think you said that in the beginning). I think I can often feel whether the author is an outliner or not when I'm reading. Also, I think the outline is sometimes why I am disappointed in a story. An example that stuck with me is "the final empire" by Brandon Sanderson (who in my opinion is a great author) - a very detailed outliner. The plot twist of the story is that one of the protagonists sacrifices himself in the end to fuel the revolution. The idea is awesome in THEORY, but it also means that the protagonist is no longer available for book two and three of the series. I think that Sanderson connected with this character the most during writing, so he is most rounded and I loved him as a reader. I think Sanderson didn't really plan for this to happen, it's just something that ... well, happens. But then he ended up with a story culminating in the death of this character and at least for me (!) Made me really hesitant to pick up book two because he was the mover of the plot. You see what I mean? You cannot plan how you connect with the characters, who the chemistry between characters is and such things. Thus, it is also a question of the genre, don't you think? It's weird to outline romance (all about chemistry) but impossible to discovery write mystery (everything needs to fall into place in the end), you'll probably kill yourself if you try to discovery write "game of thrones" (far too many protagonists), but YA with a too strict outline might feel bloodless ... ? That's just a tendency, of course...
In the past, after I outlined, it was like I'd already written the story. My brain just moved on; I knew what happened so I was no longer interested in writing it down. That's it; next story.
Now I exclusively discovery-write, and it's such a relief. I just had to figure out that I need to know the ending - or rather, the point I'm roughly aiming for - before I begin if I want to finish the piece.
This was great!!! It gave me a lot of perspective and I too am impressed by writers who Discovery Write and your ability to throw yourself in the story and live through it, learning about it as you go. Seems so fun!
I used to (try to) write without an outline in the past and I would feel overwhelmingly lost. I love writing slowly and, with the safety that I already have "everything" figured out, I can just let myself take my time and really get imersed in each scene. And there's still room for curiosity, it's just less about the overall development and more about the little tiny details, less about WHAT is gonna happen and more about HOW to translate it into words, how to use language to evoke the emotions that I want and to make the reader feel what my characters are feeling.
But ultimately, I just have so much fun even in like, planning to plan. I love figuring out everything and seeing the script basically unfold itself and go connecting the dots, and it makes drafting (that's usually hard for me) more pleasing and easy going. It's like you said, in the end of the day, it should be FUN and this elitism makes no sense at all.
This video describes so well the experience I had with outlining and discovery writing! Thank you for making me feel like a valid writer once again
Love your videos. Thanks for all you do.
Okay, yep, halfway through and you’ve definitely proved to me that I am actually a discovery writer! Thank you so much for this video, Shaelin, you’ve really helped me in how I’ll be treating my process in the future!
Sorry to be 2 years late but I just appreciate this video so much. You litterally speak my thoughts. Plus What I would say discovery wrighting does good for me it just keeps me going. When planning I tend to stay in the planning phase afraid I will be unable to execute the plan and produce some trash. I like to mix planning and pantsing. Pantsing is good to feel the moment and build a natural dynamic of a scene while sometimes it's good to zoom out to see what the story looks like so far and plan more or less where all of this is going to lead. But how - that's down to discovery writing.
I’m a maladaptive/immersive daydreamer, so writing is putting down the scenarios I’ve played and replayed in my head as words. I think that’s why my characters are developed by the time I can move on to writing. Writing isn’t the discovery process, daydreaming is.
Enjoyed the book talk today.
I really enjoy outlining! Probably because I only care about the big picture. Details feel insignificant. I also like having a sense of control.
Hey Shaelin, I really appreciate all your great content. I want to tell you what a huge difference it made to me that you were looking directly into the camera for this one instead of slightly to the side of it. I'm not sure if it was deliberate or what, but it was categorically better for me, so thanks for that and I hope you keep it up!
What an awesome video. You miss are the best. I am a panster I belive fully - still new to the craft!
You say what I feel and make it all so clear. I love it, and thank you so much!
🌺👍
When I’m free flow writing if I introduce a plot point/foreshadowing. I personally add some kind of marking next to it to remind me that I need to tie that concept in or reveal what was foreshadowed.
Love your channel. I've been writing for 20 years or so. I use both methods, I guess that each story demands different ways of working it out. I didn't know this two methods of writing generated such a heated debate, until I started watching TH-cam dealing with this issues. Greetings from Mexico.
I used to outline the heck out of all my projects. But I found that when I would sit down to write, there was no flow and it all just sounded horrible. I discovery write now which also enables me to switch scenes when I feel like things are dragging on, disclose information at a more natural pace, add plot points or twists to keep the interest going, and make a character more active or likable if needed. Outlining so much over the years helped me internalize the structure which I can then apply on the fly. And the best thing is: for the first time in years I am actually having fun writing again and fully immersing myself in a setting and story (even if my stories tend to be suuuuper depressing).
I agree that people should try both. I am writing a series of novels right now. One I am Discovery Writing. Another i am outlining. And another i was outlining but i decided to switch to Discovery Writing.
this was SO validating! i always try to outline but my brain just cannot plan a story that much. its great to follow a fellow discovery writer
Thanks so much for this. As a discovery writer myself, it's so nice to see someone talk about how outlining isn't necessarily the be-all and end-all for writing methods. I particularly like the bit about needing to know where the story's already been. This is true for me too. I can't write chapter 4 without writing chapters 1, 2, and 3 first.
I have yet to watch a big junk of the video, but I want to comment anyway. Right now I'm on day 21 of NaNo 2023 and I worked consistently on two diffrent projects. One I did plan in advance A LOT. I tis somewhat of a re-write of something I've written years ago, but besides using the same characters and roughly the same mystery it became a totally diffrent story - so much that I consider this a first, not a second draft. I started outlining it in September and by mid-October I had a pretty good outline to work with, sometimes down to scene level (a method that worked really well for me in the last two years). The story is definitly easy to write for me now, even thou I have phases were it won't work as intended (I am sitting at a chapter like this right now).
The second idea I had sprang to my mind literally on morning of November 1st. Fragments of it danced around in my head for some month, but they never felt concrete in any shape or form. Because I normally start out with two or three projects to see which sticks, I decided to go with it, pretty sure to abandon it by the end of the first week. I mean, I had NOTHING but the sudden urge to write down ideas to that story. My characters didn't have names even. Somehow I'm now 21 chapters and almost 40k words in and I am having fun with it. I definitly write slower and hit a wall more often than I do with the other story and I know I created a total mess (if I can re-use even a third of what I've written for a later draft that would be an amazingly good quota), but I have fun with it and while writing there came a lot of ideas I probably wouldn't have had with an outline. I don't necessarily think that this story will take more editing work than the outlined one, but it will definilty need a diffrent kind of work. I mean, I definitly need a world- and character-building phase, which Porject 1 doesn't need anymore (at least not so in-depth). But that's okay.
That said, I usually pants shorter works (even university assignemnts), almost everything below 30 pages isn't worth taking the time to outline for me. With novels I usually do work beforehand, because sorting the mess out can tire me out pretty fast (I did pants like everything in the past and most of those ideas I can't get to work properly later). But it feels good to do Project 2 right now, so I think it was the right call to let this idea just flow. Some projects need one approach, some need another. I don't even neccessarily use the same outline technique for diffrent novels.
What I interestingly can't seem to do is outline as I write. Sure, I jot down ideas, but they are really really basic ("Chapter 22: Wolf finds the object. Chapter 23: Wolf returns the object") and more like mental notes to hold my idea up til the next morning. Everything planning and editing needs my brain in thinking mode, while writing shuts this mode down completly. LIke completly *lol* I did math with one of my students yesterday and I needed a calculator to find out if 8-4 really is 4 *lol*
So I'm really late to this, but this video was honestly a godsend. I'm a natural discovery writer who's been trying to plan everything in detail and wondering why that didn't work for me. This explained it brilliantly. Thanks very much.
This is an excellent take on the subject and reflects my own approach. What's best for each of us probably relates to the type of story we want to tell. Character-based stories seem to lend themselves to discovery writing. Before proceeding with anything resembling a story, I need to know my characters, and this can only happen through writing. Data alone--age, name, career, personality type, etc.--cannot illuminate a character. The two sides, meaning planners and discovery writers, each side makes wild assumptions about the other. Discovery writers, we're likely more structured than they think; planners, they're likely more detailed than what we think. But planning out scenes and events for things that have no context, i.e., the ten-thousand-foot view--for the types of stories I write, this approach results in flat scenes with little glue between them, and a lack of psychological unity. On the other hand, if I were to write something like a mystery--this is a more plot-based genre, I think--I would do so with a much firmer plan. Great discussion.
Yes! Definitely agree with all of this :) I love discovery writing!
oh wow I found this very motivating! as someone who often comes up with story ideas but doesn't write them down, I've always though the process of writing (or at least the outlining process I usually see recommended) intimidating but what you've described is how I go through these ideas in my head or closer to how DMing a game of dungeons and dragons goes (at least for me I don't know how people can have an ending of a campaign planned before the characters are even made???).
5:41 same here! I struggle with coming up with ideas for the big picture. My brain only cooperates sentence by sentence sometimes paragraph by paragraph. I think I'm gonna start just writing a basic transformation arch, not actually what happens just how the character needs to change at that point. Thank you so much I've been really struggling with writing recently I think this is gonna be a big help!
One of the reasons I love your channel is that our brains work very similarly when it comes to writing, so many of the things that work for you end up working for me as well
“What happens next is based on what happened before.” Bam. Nailed down what my writing hang up has been. I’ve been trying to do a kind of character bio but now with this understanding I think I’ll be able to just plow ahead. Yay for discovery writers!
This. This is the video I have been looking for. I thought maybe I was a discovery writer, but I had tried various forms of outlining too. Now I know for sure that I'm a discovery writer thanks to your video! Thank you so much!! Can't wait to watch the tips video! P.S. I also want to pass out when I see math related things! 🤣🤣🤣
im a massive plotter, i spend more time plotting than actually writing (its just my process, i cant write if i dont understand the whole story fully). but this discussion always get me cause one of the authors that i enjoy a lot dont plot a single bit of their story and pants it the whole time and i love his storys just the same. its literally just a matter of whats work the best by your psychy, cause if its working then its all fine
The only part of a story I outline is the settings, theme and past of this setting which the present story takes place. Then I created character outlines their names, traits and dreams which would make sense in the setting which they are currently in. Once I had the foundation and characters I begin the story organically adding to the story like bricks and mortar.
After the story is finished then I write the outline as part of the editing process. This helps you in making sure the plot, events, character, feeling and dialogue all connect.
Thank you for freeing me from the constraints of the outline. 🥰
I'm naturally a discovery writer, but I'm learning about structure and plotting and trying it out for a few stories just to have the knowledge at hand, it might enhance my discovery writing. But I work best when I have a loose idea for the whole story, at least most of it, and then write. The flow of words and sentences suggests the next sentence, which suggests the next. But I mean, I don't let myself get lost in a wild flow, I keep in mind where this needs to go.
This is exactly how I feel!! I mean, I have some plot points, ending, a general idea where I'm going, but once I decide on that, I literally do not know how to decide on chapters and smaller scenes, because I cannot shape characters without knowing their experiences beforehand and that requires actual writing, describing character's emotions, etc. Great video!
Your videos always help me immensely in interesting and distinct way.
I would like to see a video on how to use thesaurus effectively from YOU especially. As your videos on diction and writing style were just amazing, I would like to know your way of approaching thesaurus [of course if you like to share:)] that make your writing natural, engaging and improves vocabulary. Thank you in advance for consideration.
Great video. I've written two books now. The first i plotted extensively. The second one i wrote just 7 lines of where the story will begin and end with a few scenes i already had in mind. The rest i just took the discovery writing approach and i love this style a lot more. I find outlines too confining and without one i don't get any of those exciting 'oh, i can do this next' and have immense fun allowing the characters and story to go where it needs to go. I do have the ending in mind because it's the perfect one for thos book but i may have even fewer bullet points and no ending planned for the next book as i genuinely loved the process of discovery writing more. One tip i would give those who want to try discovery writing is to relax as much as possible and not worry to much where the scene will go next. Just focus on the scene you're writing now. Sometimes that means thinking about the next scene while you're having a shower or working out. Sometimes it means staring at a screen and looking at the previous scenes to get a sense of the next logical step. And when you find a solution go for it with the mindset that it will all be fixed in the next draft. I don't edit as I go along with the first draft. I just work with intense momentum. It's a lot of fun.
Wow, this is really interesting! All the problems you mentioned having when you tried to outline sound a whole lot like *my* problems when I try to outline. It's weird, because I'm not very intuitive at all in life in general, that's just not my personality, so I always thought I *ought* to like outlining better, but I'm kinda re-thinking that now. What I've been doing lately is a sort of combination of outlining and discovery writing, where I discovery write random scenes for character development through dialogue, but for the plot I keep an outline that changes as my ideas of the characters change. Even that, I've felt guilty about, like by doing any discovery writing at all I'm doing it "wrong." Apparently not. Maybe I'll try more discovery writing in the future. Thanks for the insight!
Yes, thank you for this! You could have been explaining my writing process, spot on!
OMG! From someone who is also a pantser (okay, I'm gonna say a discovery writer from now on) plotting is soooooo hard to do. I can only plot for a tiny bit and will definitely will not use them a lot. I am so glad that I found your channel that celebrate DISCOVERY WRITERS! Thanks Shaelin!
Just checked out your "good music" playlist 👌👌👌❤️❤️❤️ ; you got a really good taste in music 👌
Thanks for the helpful advice , I’m mostly a discovery writer.
too.
Well at least during the day, but at night I dream up detailed and planned scenes for my book on most nights anyway.
That only happens when I get a lot of inspiration and story ideas, which only happens sometimes.
This video definitely helped me out a lot
i agree so much! i started a novel (a series to be planner) a few years back and i used an outline and i had so much pacing problems especially. bc i thought some scenes would take longer/shorter than it actually did and bc i feel so dependent on my outline, even a scene that should only be 1 chapter stretched out to 5 bc it said in my outline. i like discovery writing bc for me it's obvious if it's going too fast/slow and i can make changes based on it