Evidence for the Magi/Bible/gospels | Andrew - Twinsberg, OH | Talk Heathen 03.21
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- Talk Heathen 03.21 for May 26, 2019 with Jamie Boone & Matt Dillahunty.
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WHAT IS TALK HEATHEN?
Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
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![[[OFFICIAL MV]] เอิ้นขวัญให้อ้าย- อ๊ะอาย สกุณาพร | ค่ายเพลงเป็นหนึ่ง](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/83x6L3X3qh0/mqdefault.jpg)
Virgin birth is no big deal. If the Holy Spirit had impregnated Joseph, now _that_ would have been impressive!
That would've required a lot more surgery than the surrogate job with Mary. 😂
A butt baby, I’ve had one of those before
Didn't Chuck Tingle write about this?
😂😂😂
Whoever wrote the bible is the original mpreg writer!
Stephen Hawking was on Star Trek. So clearly the Enterprise is a real space ship.
Of course it is. I just wish they would stop blowing it up.
Clearly...
Of course it is real. They even filmed it.
you've convinced me...
It was a combination of comic books and the superior morality they taught me that I began to question my religion growing up. Peter Parker would never condone most of the things that most of the holy books do. My love of Bruce Lee and his own atheism and philosophy was the next step I remember towards separating myself from Christianity. A god who could condemn my hero, who gave me a life long love of not a only martial arts but the seeking of truth, is a god who I couldnt respect. Later George Carlin, Penn and Teller, and The Atheist Experience cleared me of its completely. I used to HATE Matt. Fucking made me so mad. Furious. Especially when I agreed with you. Especially when I had no good answers for your questions. Thank you so much for that.
This is why I quit God. I was tired of being wrong.
Same! Not having a logical and sound answer, and when I asked God...nothing.
@@FluffyHawk13 i tried the faith for a few months and started from Genesis through to Exodus. Sermons tickle the ears and the prosperity con men ended it for me. I heard the stories throughout my education, all the extraordinary ones of miracles. I thank my peers for giving the room for my mind to rationalize life before i was able to scrutinize accounts.
@John Michaels Which God?
Quote the Bible ...nope .... quote “Harry Potter” and “Alice in Wonderland”...at least we know who the authors are.
This is such a stupid thing people say, what credibility would knowing the author give to the book?
@@yayorandel6048 that’s an absurd reply! Think about what you just stated!
@@triplejudy who the author of a book is does not matter, the book could be true or false either way, your comment is the only stupid thing said here.
@@yayorandel6048maybe we can learn more without calling statements absurd or stupid. We tend to take different routes other than giving a real answer when we are confronted with name-calling and the like
To answer your VERY valid question, now that we've addressed the issue of how it was worded: we do get a better idea of how truthful it is. If I know for example that the author of a book is someone who has never claimed to witness extraordinary acts and furthermore has a well documented history of writing fiction novels, and we know that author marketed the book in question as a fantasy novel, we know the author is not claiming the book to be factual, and we know the author has a history of writing stuff they made up (heavily inspired by, if not plagiarizing, similar works)... Chances are we can tell the book in question is meant to be taken as fiction.
If we know some guy with a well documented history of scamming people, breaking the law, and taking advantage of others, while also enough documentation about his deeds and character as to assume it's likely this man was not only a con artist but someone who enjoyed being the center of attention and feeling important... And then we know he wrote a book and some other religious text that may make fantastical claims, that don't really make sense, but were effective to convince others to join his cult, treat him as if he was special, obey and pretty much worship him, him getting money, fame, and even wives out of said texts we know he authored... One could have a good idea of what ulterior motive that person may have had when coming up with said texts. We would know how likely it is that those fantastic claims that not only don't align with the natural laws we know of but also don't align with the history we know and can verify to be then fake.
If we knew for example that Genesis one was written by a bunch of goat herders telling campfire stories, stories they didn't believe to be true nor were ever meant to be taken literally... Then we could come to the conclusion that anyone claiming that those stories were narrated by someone with any knowledge of the origin of the world is taking the book out of context.
If we knew of a book that claimed to have predictions, and people used that book to claim proves divine knowledge because the author of the book couldn't know said facts without divination. And then we find out said book was not authored by who was originally claimed to be authored but by someone who lived after the fact, who was pretending to be of a distant past as to pass historic facts as divination, thus granting more validity to other claims made in said book... We would have a better understanding of said book and how mundane its origin is.
If someone claims that they don't know how to write or read and then they just claim to have written a book to further their controversial take on a religion, seemingly with the purpose of creating another religion. And we were to prove that said book was actually written by someone perfectly capable of writing. We would know about the veracity if said book.
If I get a biology book, authored by 3 doctors in biology, who have written other books that have been well accepted by the scientific community, if we were able to tell they used scholarly sources, based on data obtained by a method proven to be the most accurate at the time, and all findings from that data was first heavily scrutinized and peer reviewed before it was even considered to be added to the book, we might make assumptions about the veracity if said book.
It doesn't mean that knowing the authors immediately grants all claims to be true. It doesn't mean we will always know the veracity of said book just by knowing the authors. It means we would be more likely to reach a better conclusion regarding its veracity, intentions, bias, and even if the text was altered by someone else for an ulterior motive after the book was written IF we know the author.
If Matthew was written by the devil, it would not be credible. And it would be important to know the author. @@yayorandel6048
Troy was a real city, therefore the Iliad is a true story.
Aphrodite is the one true god of sex!
Ships sink, therefore Poseidon.
also i gotta say the indoctrination is strong in this one .. like, he's been presented counter arguments for everything, amazing analogies and stuff, he understands the reasons to reject types of "evidence" but he still can't admit that the bible is not a reliable source...
blob darkass
Are you sure you’re not talking about the Shrek.
@Jesus is Dog :
And those masters are other humans using your fear, supersticious feelings to keep you down so they can make a buck and control who you vote on.
All you can do is plant a seed that may have never been planted before. You dont wipe out years of indoctrination in one phone call.
Just imagine this guy in court.
I have an eyewittness acount
Judge:where is the wittness?
Oh, i only got it written down
Judge:so the wittness wrote it down?
No,someone else
Judge:do you have the name of the authour or the wittness?
No,but we voted that is the testemony wich serves our agenda the most
Judge: Wait you got a testomony , from an anymonous source, reporting an anymonous eyewittness, wich you voted one serves your agenda the most?
Yes actually 4, but they contrdict each other.
Judge: Wich idiots do you think would by that?
Oh we fisrt make it illigal to believe otherwise , then we use death threads and then indoctranation and then call it world relgion.
Lol nice trolling brother.😂😂😂😂😂😂
My original comment mocks a specific tetimony, to assert "Testimonies are important to you i see", seemed ridiculis to me . Sorry for this missunderstanding.
"My question is a valid one", can you rephrase your question please?
I just see 2 statements, i 100%agree with beliefs influencing lifes, but i idisagree with belief being something valid in court.
And again i repeat, i have ZERO doubt that the belief of these people changed or impacted their lifes.
@@redeemedone8553 personal testimonials, feelings, "experiences" are not evidence. People believing in something is not evidence. If that's the case 1.5 billion muslims are correct too.
@@redeemedone8553 no the judge will require supporting evidence. Plain and simple. Example: in Ferguson a few years ago a guy was shot by the cops. The "eye witnesses" stories did not match up and the supporting evidence did not match up. Plus you don't have actual evidence that there were witnesses to jesus's resurrection. You have claims that there were witnesses. Now provide the evidence please
When I heard the name Andrew, I was afraid it was THAT Andrew.
The Chris Langan fanboy?
I'll give Andrew credit for persistence but not much else.
He's a hero. He's a charlatan. He's a fol. He's.... Andrew...
@@ImStayGold42Why, it's the lazy man's "fool". Lol, it's just a typo.
I actually think a lot of the time he said he understood he didn't. He couldn't follow the thought train, or at least would jump off. As said he had his conclusion and refused to come to anything else, which is a horrible flaw. Even if the puzzle is there solved he'd refuse to look at it because he was wrong about the picture on it...
Blasphemous!!! The Titanic sinked for all of your sins, to save us from metaphysical icebergs.
*sank
@@TheNomad94 r/whoosh
@@sandeman1776 Oh yeah? What's the obvious joke that I missed that accounts for the error, then?
Also, r/ihavereddit
@@TheNomad94 the use of "sinked" instead of "sunk" was intentional to highlight the absurdity of the statement.
@@sandeman1776 I'm not sure it's that obvious, since everything else as in perfectly legible English. I dunno.
By this logic, I'm an alpaca rancher in Texas.
My grandfather owns land there, I have credit sufficient for a bank loan, and I like long-necked camelids but have heard llamas are jerks. Every step, probable. But I'm not a Texan alpaca rancher.
How about the fact that the gospels are estimated to have been written 70 years or more after the fact and that the average life span in the times of the bible were 34 years. So the gospels are unlikely to be first hand accounts, more likely second or third.
Average lifespan is a bit misleading in these cases. That average includes the very high infant mortality rate. If you have one person life to 90 and two toddlers die you have 90+3+3=96, you get an average lifespan of 32. Low average lifespans typically mean more a high infant mortality rate than people die at 40.
@@magellanicraincloud
At that time and that part of the world it was very common to dir before 35-40. Heck they have Basicaly the same rate today.
@@guytheincognito4186 I would like you to name a source for that, because what Nik said is indeed what I thought why the average lifespan was so low historically.
@@magellanicraincloud ok guys, I googled myself. What you are saying is not really correct. According to wikipedia's page about life expectancy, there is a table that in fact states an average lifespan of 20 to 30 in classical Rome, and that was indeed due to high child mortality. But if people got 20 there was only 30 years left to live on average. So the original comment rightly questions that the eyewitness accounts probably weren't first hand.
It seems fairly obvious that health care was not what it is today. Right? Dental care? There are obviously issues, but I would assume life expectancy beyond child birth have been gained. If not, what the fuck are we doing?
But but... read marvel #64, the evidence IS there!!! (And #74 even confirms it!!! What else do you need???)
Obviously another confirmation... from #84
#94 talked about a different thing, so we dont need to consider that one.
I used to watch thes >debates< to improve my english... finding out how stupid ppl r instead. lol
Just think of the realization of stupidity as a bonus. Two birds, one stone kind of thing.
@@MysticalHydra Human stupidity is the only unlimited resource we have.
@@gazza595 Indeed. Limited only by our inevitable mass extinction at some point in the (hopefully distant) future.
Jamie has such a sweet, gentle voice. Love him.
Yeah we need some evidence outside of the bible...
Oh, okay, well if you just look at this part of the bible...
Ugh...
@@redeemedone8553 Matthew was the author.. .? Have you consulted with the bulk of biblical scholars who would put you on the front page of extraordinary news outlets? Really? Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John are the authors.. .. .. ? Maybe you should do a little more homework.. .. .
@@redeemedone8553 where did you get that link.. .? From Ken Ham? Sye Ten LMAO
@@redeemedone8553 Just to get this straight. You think Mathew was the actual author.. .? Please say yea lol.. ..
@@redeemedone8553 I'll cut the bs out.. Fine. Is that what you believe tho?( that Mathew was the author of that gospel/ book?)
@@redeemedone8553 um... I just did. Are you against [theist] biblical scholars?
"There were kings called "Pharaoh" in Egypt, therefore the plagues happened!"
Poor Andrew always calling these shows and always getting shot down
The problem with callers like this is that they think that their religion is the default position and if they can disprove abiogenesis or evolution, it restores faith in their ridiculous mythology.
People are born as atheists and live happily as atheists until they are indoctrinated. Before arguing with ANY of these theist callers, they should have a discussion with them and make them agree that the baseline default position is one in which religions and god’s are a complete unknown (ie atheism). From that starting point, walk them through the events that occurred in their lives that made them leave atheism behind and become a theist. As each reason is presented, explain to them how the claim (which they accepted at the time) was fallacious, dishonest and irrational.
Speaking in generalities too much just goes completely over these callers heads. You’ve got to drag them, one fallacy at a time, through their own journey if you want any chance at all of making them see where they went wrong. For many, it’s that they accept the Bible as an infallible truth source, but that one has been beaten to death. This is by far the worst reason. The best way to make a person accept the problems with the bible is simply to have them read it. Too few people read the book they claim contains the ultimate truth and are happy to let liars, charlatans and child molesters explain to them the gist of it. You’d think that any serious Christian worthy of calling himself a Christian would take the time to read the book of ultimate truth and wisdom for themselves... but sadly they don’t.
Conversely, the main reason that only a very small fraction of Christians have read the bible cover to cover is because the VAST majority of people who HAVE read the entire Bible are understandably no longer Christians!
@Stefan Dingenouts You think *that's* circular?
They take Paul's standard Rabbinical assertion that "all Scripture is God-breathed" (which is obviously referring to the Hebrew Scriptures that both Jews and Christians follow) and apply it to their much-later canonization of a selection of writings *including Paul's own letters* and try to push the Bible as self-sealing!
Circular logic at its worst!
Well said :)
Science is 100% a religion which has been proven false and unreliable over and over.
This is at least the 6th time this guy has called in. It sounds like he is trying to convince himself more than he is trying to convince the host.
I love watching this call. Jamie's reasoning here and ability to cut to the core of the issue combined with Matt's refusal to give any wiggle room to the caller is top notch. I think, while the caller is not likely to change his mind, this discussion is so enlightening for those doubting believers. I think if I were an evidence based believer on the edge of my belief, this call in particular would be like someone coming up behind me and kicking me into the lake of reason, logic and skepticism below.
If I had been a believer watching this for the first time, even I would have seen why baby andy's epistemology was unsound. It's as if the man has never grasped the concept of historical fiction.
This and previous calls from this guy are painful. Like Matt said, he has it fixed in his mind that the bible is true, so every bit of "research" that he does is conducted only to support it, not to examine things in an unbiased way. He is LEADING the data, not FOLLOWING it to a proper conclusion.
At the end when he said he would only be convinced that he was wrong if science could prove abiogenesis (!??!?!!) was ludicrous. First of all, Matt explained it correctly that there is no connection. Second, it had to have happened billions of years ago, and we already have evidence that OTHER LIFE existed more than 6,000-10,000 years ago. How does he explain THAT?
A reference to magi visiting Herod is a non-starter: which Herod? There are at least 7 different rulers named Herod in the Bible. Each one lived at a different time, from around 37 BCE to 93 CE.
K. S. K. I mean, I think it’s fair to say Magi existed at the time Jesus supposedly lived. That just has nothing to do with proving the Bible. Temples existed too. Jesus went to temples. Doesn’t mean Jesus was real
@Sam Bacon What is the time of the New Testament? We have noting resembling a new testament before the fourth century. So a long time of story telling.
*Matt makes a good point about theists proposition*
*Theist deflects and changes topic*
Jamie has a special talent of working around ignorance. This requires a lot of patience and I hope it pays off. Congratulations for the great job you're doing, for the good of mankind!!
No he avoids the ignorance !
Why do most apologists never address well-formed counters to their claims? It's as if they're deaf to logic and move on to the next as if their entire argument wasn't just annihilated by the skeptics (multiple times throughout history yet the same tired arguments from believers trotted out over and over).
It's as if facts and logical consistency don't matter to them. Curious.
They are deaf to logic or else they wouldn't be theists
They never acknowledge questions of their faiths because to answer aquestion you have to understand the question as if you asked it yourself. You cant question the faith so you dont know any questions or an answer for it.
Yeah, plus they've got a helluva lot riding on them being right, in their minds of course.
There's the origins of the universe, morality and a reason for being alive and then the fate of their eternal soul.
If they question it for one second and give an inch of leeway they might lose it all.
Rejecting and ignoring facts, logic, rationality and reason is their coping mechanism for being able to keep their "faith". It's commonly called being wilfully ignorant.
Yeah, Andrew tends to do this in his calls.
"Ya but there's nothing supernatural about a ship sinking" [crickets]
Unless it was the black pearl
JAMIE, MAKE THE CALLER ACTUALLY RESPOND TO YOUR AND MATT'S POINTS! Him saying "yeah, I get that point" does not count.
I think they were trying to make him get to the truth on his own. Sometimes that approach is more valuable especially when a person has called in several times. That means the person is absorbing information.
They covered a lot of great points but I feel they let him slide on pretty much every one. They should make the caller explain the point back to them to be sure that he gets it.
Once again Andrew calls in with the same old arguments. It's like he doesn't remember anything from the last calls. It's always something something was found to be true, so the bible is true. He's been calling in for over a year but his views and arguments haven't changed since the first time he called. How many times has he been told that the truthfulness of one element of a story is true doesn't make everything else true? Even while he's being told he acts as if nothing was said. Remember when he talked to Fitzgerald? even after a long precise counter argument from Fitzgerald, Andrew just says "well.....Mark wrote for the gentiles, Matt wrote for the Jews " completely ignoring everything Fitzgerald said.
I made a playlist of Andrews calls. And yes that’s basically all he does. When it comes to the Bible he’s amazingly credulous and willing to believe.
Ya I remember when he talked to Fitzgerald, he got crushed and completely ignored any opposing facts.
th-cam.com/video/O5AordEPtok/w-d-xo.html
Amnesianity
Stephen Gloss... He is like this guy I used to work with, we started calling him the birthday boy... Cause every morning it was like rebirth where he forgot everything and yet been at his job for like 8-years.
Jamie's probably one of my favorite hosts in the atheist talk show community. He's well spoken, intelligent, and patient.
It's like half the people calling need hand puppets to understand what the hosts are explaining to them.
Pop-up books are much better.
Matt Dillahunty wrote the book of Matthew! hahahaha! And he IS a Magician! As a bonus... We KNOW and can DEMONSTRATE Mr. Dillahunty's EXISTANCE.
"Oh you read it online. Well fuck why are we bothering to talk about it?" Matt Dillahunty
Best comment I've heard on the show in a while! I literally had tears coming down my face from laughing so hard.
In the Bible there are long conversations between the god of Israel and Moses.
The conversations were written down hundreds of years later.
I had a conversation last week with my Neighbour about gardening for about 30 minutes.
All I remember is that he mentioned roses and special compost to get the best result.
Fact!!!!
Every person is born an atheist...that is, with NO religious beliefs (or any other kind, for that matter). Whatever flavor of 'faith' (a pisspoor substitute for critical thinking) that one embraces is from parental, authoritarian or peer pressure along with the culture into which one happens to be born.
Virtually all ADULT atheists are former believers who managed to rouse their inherent intellectual abilities and seriously investigate what they were conditioned to accept as 'truth' which is why they invariably know far more about the tenets and dogma of the institution from which they managed to escape than those who remain captive to it.
The following quote from Stephen F. Roberts sums up the situation very nicely:
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
This guy should believe in vampires because the Twilight bible mentions Seattle. When David Fitzgerald ate him alive on this same track he kept saying ; "well I disagree "
Both Marvel religions are correct, they are both canon they just take place in different universes but are both happening.
In marvel comics, everything is possible. Therefore marvel comics are god.
@@arjanstam78 I disagree as One more Day never happened, it was just a fever dream.
Robin Hood and Sherlock Holmes, are both fictional from books,, there are people who already believe that they were real people, and they have the story's to prove it.
Andrew calls every one of these shows, multiple times, spouting the same tripe.
Guys, today you taught me something. I am an gnostic atheist from Slovenia who also really likes to debate religious people. I am very much like Matt in the sense that I offten get triggered by the ignorance of people. Today is the first time I saw myself in a "mirror image" and could see that Jamie is much better for talking to people. I mean: I would not like to talk to Matt about something we dont agree on, but I would have no problem talking to Jamie. People tell me this all the time, but today is the fist time I really realized this by wathcing this :) Man...I feel like some of those religious koos right now :) I take my hat off master Jamie. I will try too learn more from your way! Cheers!
In other words: I can see why some religous people see Matt as Satan. As they think Richard Dawkins, Cristopher Hitchins etc. were Satan. But I cant imagine somebody saying this about Jamie. He just gives the impresion that he really cares about people. I sure dont. And I would go as far as too say that Matt doesnt also. :)
So many people hold tight to that book, don't they...
And yet so few read it.
Empty tomb: FAST MAGGOTS!! Problem solved!!!
Someday we will finally determine whether religion is the cause...or the result...of insanity; then we might be able to cure both.
I'd like to know why the magi story is believed.
Who, precisely, would have been the witnesses?
None of the disciples were there. There's no account of Jesus mentioning nor telling the story.
We even have mentions of what the king purportedly heard! How entirely preposterous is that.
It's obviously fictional.
Yes, but predicated on the wanton belief that it's true. Obsessive Conpulsive Belief. And the rock solid conviction that one's mission is to defend and propagate it to the best of one's abilities. Arguments against one's glaringly irrational beliefs then simply become distractions that one must learn to ignore. That's why religion is sometimes called a mind virus. It takes control of the mind.
Weren't Romans quite diligent chroniclers? The Jerusalem Romans might not know who Jesus was or his life or his sermons, as he was from Galilee and arrived at the capital a week prior .However,they would certainly have reported about the supernatural events like earthquakes and dead men roaming in the streets at resurrection?
Andrew is looking for evidence for something he already believes.
It's not at all surprising that he finds "convincing" evidence.
14:10 BAHAHAHAHA 😂😂😂😂😂 "I pretty sure I read that online..." LMAO
Wait a minute...are these guys trying to convince us that Spider-Man does not exist? When I was a boy I really hoped and wanted the Hardy Boys to be real people - turned out to not be the case
Andrew has an impenetrable force field.
And a bulletproof aura.
I wish they would have brought up that there were actually dozens of gospels. And NONE of the Gospels were eyewitness accounts. Not only aren't they historical, they aren't even consistent in the myth they are trying to peddle.
I would carry Andrew into battle - he could deflect a fucking RPG.
The irony of forgetting what Matt had said about eye witness testimony being unreliable
The miracle about the Titanic is the fact that there's a museum about it, which the most visited tourist attraction, in Belfast
MATT! YOU TAKE THAT BACK RIGHT NOW!!!! HOW DARE YOU SAY MCU IS CANON! HERETIC!
The MCU is canon... in the MCU.
@@Diviance thus illustrating the ridiculousness of religious schism. "My favorite character is better than yours!"
@@sandeman1776
But come on, everyone knows my favorite character is the best character, the "one true character" one might say....
@@Diviance hey! I will murder someone's WHOLE FAMILY! MY FAVORITE CHARACTER IS THE BEST AND ONLY TRUE CHARACTER! THE REST ARE FALSE IDOLS THAT MUST BE SMASHED!
@@sandeman1776
BLASPHEMER! THE HOLY CHARACTER WILL NOT FORGIVE YOUR INSOLENCE!
hah finally some spiderman comparison to the bible xD that analogy is just so good
Wouldn't Thor be better, though? :3
Hi, God here.
Big fan of ancient social media like manuscripts in dead languages!
I am thinking in upgrading to instantaneous communication and simultaneous translation with a worldwide coverage, like you guys have nowadays... Of course, I was 101% capable of doing it at ancient times, but as a superior Creator I like to borrow inferior inventions that inferior creatures concocted, because mysterious supernatural reasons you will not understand for being inferior.
You just need to have faith that seemingly stupid planing is instead superior supernatural thinking that you cannot understand.
I am totally borrowing the internet for my next revelations, maybe... Coming soon, as always!
Well, now back to sleep!
Why can't religious people understand anything?..
brain damage
What should they understand science that is stated as fact, only to be completed disproved soon after?
No..understand that magic and the afterlife are impossible..
@@yayorandel6048lol dummy
clearly god exists, it says so in the bible, and god would have made sure the bible is accurate, because he wants us to know he exits.
also, circles are awesome, my argument, is flawless.
Read “Why I Believed” by Ken Daniels for a brilliant deconstruction of the Resurrection account, including liberties Luke took with his text.
I'm an atheist for about a decade, but I have to get an answer on one thing:
Some Christian apologists argue that the description of there being a "virgin birth" is a mistake because "virgin" was a mistranslation of the Hebrew word "Alma" meaning "Young woman", so that there wasn't an actual event of a virgin giving birth. Now as a native-level Hebrew speaker I can confirm that "Alma" does mean young woman in Hebrew. I'd like to know how atheists would counter this explanation.
So what?? ... ir makes the story less impressive than theist have tried to make it that's all
@@everyonehasanopionion I agree, an interesting point you've brought up. It makes the story mundane rather than extraordinary. Thanks for the response.
@@rockysandman5489 no problem have a great day
I have a question for Christians:
If god is omniscient, he would know that humans would doubt over and over again, right?
So.. if he's all powerful on top and loves us, why is he not staying on earth as Jesus forever?
Should be a piece of cake for him, right?
If he came down on earth to deliver us from the original sin and say "Hi, i am here, your god Jehovah!", revealing himself. Then why not just stay forever with your so beloved humans?
Why do we have to rely on a collection of books that is subject to so many different Interpretation with zero chances to ever know if any of them is closer to the truth than the other or that any of them is actually true?
Magi went places. Therefore god.
Rationality Rules!
There is a simple explanation for the empty tomb.
Tomb Raider.
Around 66 A.D, the Armenian King Tiridates I, who was also a Zoroastrian priest and magus, traveled from the east to Rome accompanied by other magi (Mάγος) to pay homage to Nero and vow fidelity to him. The emperor Nero even held a coronation ceremony for him.
Let’s ignore the prior probability of the Magi, who weren't astronomers at the time and who later were hostile towards Christians, choosing to follow a star and annoint some rando baby king of the Jews. Let's just assume that they really made the trip. What would the consequences of such a trip have been? This visit should have and would have been noteworthy. It might not seem like much to us, thousands of years later, but the Magi were not just your local parish priest. These people were part of a religious caste that had significant authority on the religious affairs of the Parthian Empire. Strabo, a writer in the first century BC, wrote that the council of Magi would pick the king of the Parthians from familial claimants. Even further back than that, Herodotus said that the Magi had led an overthrow of the government with their own king back in the 6th century BC. Other authors from the past considered the Magi a little less than kings, including Julius Caesar himself!
So now imagine that you have a people coming from the group that declares kings in Persia all the way to a land that was a client state of Rome, the most powerful rivals to the Persians, and declare that a random toddler is the King of the Jews. These Magi not only giving Herod the middle finger; they are challenging the authority of Caesar Augustus himself, who was Herod’s patron and who granted Judean independence from Rome because of Herod’s support of him during the civil war against Marc Antony. This is not an idle act of religious tourism but a declaration of war by the most powerful rival to Rome after the fall of Carthage. Rome could no more have ignored this than the United States would have ignored the Soviet Union installing a governor on the island of Puerto Rico during the height of the Cold War.
An incident very much like this did actually happen during the reign of Nero concerning the territory of Armenia. Like Judea, Armenia was a buffer region between Rome and Parthia, both nations had a vested interest in Armenia being ruled by a power friendly to them. When the Parthians appointed a new ruler to this region undesirable to the Romans, Emperor Nero sent in the troops and this lead to four years of war. Decades earlier, there was a significant diplomatic showdown over the same region and as to who was to appoint its ruler. It didn’t lead to a war in that instance due to some heavy negotiation and compromise, but both incidents made it into several histories of the era, including the Jewish historian Josephus.
So if something like this happened in 6 BC concerning Israel, the Roman response should have been to send, if not mere angry words, soldiers to Judea, and all of Jerusalem should have been afraid that their country was going to be the site of a powderkeg incident between Rome and Parthia. None of our histories of the period record this as having happened, though. Not in Josephus, not in Tacitus, not in Suetonius. Not even in the other Gospel that records the birth of Jesus (Luke). The fact that no source independent of Matthew mentions this story is inexplicable if it really happened, but this silence is exactly what is expected if it never happened.
Well stated, thank you!
Thank you for this fascinating comment.
This is the dude who wanted to talk about Jesus mythicism when David Fitzgerald was on lol.
Andrew has called several times over the years. Same arguments every time. He'll never change his mind. I will,with evidence,though
Until Sally, I was never happy, I needed so much more. Rain clouds, oh they used to chase me. Down they would pour. Join my tears, allay my fears… etc
Im from tburg class of ‘08!
Caller: ...''So we all agree that the Titanic sunk''?.....Matt: ''Yes,...there's nothing supernatural about a ship sinking''.........Caller: (Silence)........... : )
I love how his example of titanic via frank turek proves the point about the unreliability of eye witness testimony.
Matt please, the comics are obviously correct, they are the original stories compared to the reworks of the movies, obviously just joking around but it was a bad analogy however it does compare to how the various different sects of Christianity differ
Holy crap when he said abiogenisis would be the thing to change his mind about the Bible.... That reveals so so much. And also showed just how painfully correct Matt is about this. For Andrew, the Bible and Jesus are the default answer. That's INSANE.
I really enjoy Jamie and Matt’s segments. Both are very logical and interesting with their different personalities and approaches
I laugh when I hear claims by these regular Blow Joes about finding ‘evidence’, when scholars in many different fields have not found any at all… 🤣 Any reasoning is lost on them.
I think Andrew has been turning wine into urine.
Not linked to the video, but, tear me apart and boil my bones, I’ll not rest ‘till she’s lost her throne, my aim is true, my message is clear, it’s curtains for you Elizabeth, my dear!
LOL - how much sponsorship did Coke kick in for this episode. Dang, I want a Coke ;P
It was explicitly clear that Andrew didn't understand any of the reasoning and logic he was presented with. If he can't understand the simple "believing in Spiderman because of the comics", he sure as he'll isn't going to understand that convoluted changing story about ann, magararet, and apparently a waiter.
The more I think about Matthew, the more I think he uses the "Even the GENTILES know Jesus is Lord, why don't you Jews?" Attitude it
Now that's patience!
This guy's a goofball. There were hundreds of Magi back then. The fact that they ended up in a spiritual text is no surprise. They were another branch of Mystic in those cultures in that day. you know? Mystics? another group of people that Christians today would call devil worshippers LOL. Yeah. Why is it such a surprise that they showed up in a book somewhere?
"These are the four gospels that were written down that we christians worship."
Does anyone else see the problem with that statement?
Maybe they should stop worshipping a book in the first place, and they would be able to see beyond its pages and realize its just a novel.
this caller has called in before. but never seems to get it because he never changes his spiel. If I, say was shown that there maybe was evidence to suggest that disproves my argument. I would do some research on said evidence. But no, he says in every call he makes that the four gospels are written by their name sake, Mark written by Mark, Luke written by Luke ect. He continues with the same talking point every time saying Mark tells us in first person Luke tells us in an eye witness account, Mathew wrote for the jews and so on and so on. He will never get it because he don't want to get it.
I'll join Matt's Infinity War religion. All hail Thanos!
Hope Andrew one day will let the brainwashing go. We are with you, Andrew.
If the three women at the end of Mark "fled from the sepulchre . . . neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid", who told Mark?
Why did Matthew change it to "And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word."? Didn't Matthew realize he was correcting the Inerrant Word of God "according to Mark"?
.
Paul's Epistles, which were written decades before the Gospels, make no mention of an empty tomb, women, apparitions nor dialog between the risen Jesus and anyone.
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve . . ."
These were revelations culled from the scriptures by literate Jews, not apparitions to predominantly illiterate fisherman and women.
Might I point out that Mark/Matthew/Luke say only women were present at the crucifixion and Jesus' mother wasn't. The author of John (Jesus loves me best) claims he was present as was Jesus' mother and that Jesus said he was to take care of her.
Caller"Alright, but" = I am going to ignore everything you just said
He refuses to learn and will remain a jackass for that!
Anyone other than me seem to feel that Jamie is unhappy with Matt in this video?
The Infinity wars are different in the comics xD
Fun fact: In the Marvel Comics, there technically is a cult of Spider-Man in the future. It's a spin-off of another religion that worships Thor and its members believe Miguel O'Hara, the Spider-Man in the year 2099, is the original and has been sent by Thor as his representative on Earth.
Comics are weird like that.
Pssst. Your callscreeners got it wrong. It's Twinsburg. Not Trinsburg. Also, "halfway between Cleveland and Cincinnati" is pretty much the entire fucking state.
Our Prophet the Waiter, peace be upon Him lol
Andrew has proven through multiple calls that he can't have an honest conversation about theism because he believes it first and then looks for things that support it and completely ignores anything that contradicts it.
It's like he's only ever read one book and unfortunately that book was a bible...
"So what would change your mind about the bible being true?"
Silence....."Er,Uh, well (ABORT ABORT!!! if I answer truthfully I'm going to HELL!!!!")
well im a christian i have to believe that Matthew wrote the book of Mathew... that says a lot right there
Herod The Great 74/73 BCE - c. 4 BCE met Nero?? ~ I don't think so
Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus: - 15 December 37 - 9 June 68 AD! :0)
If you ask 5 'eyewitnesses' to describe in detail a car crash from YESTERDAY, they will WILDLY differ in many if not most aspects. Stories ABOUT 'eyewitnesses' and what they are alleged to have reported and written about something that might have happened a couple thousand years ago are about as reliable as a train trying to go from Kansas City to Branson where there are no tracks.
I wonder if people have called it something like the "Rashomon effect", Rashomon referencing a Japanese story where you have several people covering an incident to a detective