the change is a huge win... for someone who bought the v1 first and was then pleasantly surprised by the v2. the opposite situation, though, would be a huge loss.
By not marking version it makes it easier to continue selling old stock at the same price! Ubquiti does the same thing! Especially when they switched from passive poe to normal Poe, so if you didn't pay close attention you could smoke your hardware
This labeling scheme has been Netgear's standard for as far back as I can recall, and that's pretty far back. I agree that they could do a better job in terms of consistency and visibility, though - I just don't want anyone to think this is a new sin of Netgear's.
By not marking version it makes it easier to continue selling old stock at the same price! Ubquiti does the same thing! Especially when they switched from passive poe to normal Poe, so if you didn't pay close attention you could smoke your hardware
Totally agree, Netgear has been doing this for decades, some products have four or five hardware versions of the same product name. It can be a real pain as many times they have separate firmware updates and the early versions are no longer updated or have different accessories. Many times on Amazon people used to ask what actual version was for sale or what version people were reviewing (when we could comment). If these guys are just noticing this about Netgear and how they market and name their product versions it does not say much about their reviewing products.
Netgear has done this with all of their switches. I purchased several GS724T switches years back and it was a pain to purchase the right ones because the V2 and V3 switches were being sold at the same time and I wanted the V3 model as it was more powerful than the V2.
All consumer grade networking equipment makers have done this with all of their equipment since probably forever. That linksys router everyone had in the 2000's was actually like ten different routers and it was up to god which one you actually got and as such whether it was good to install ddwrt on it. Its poor practice that only exists to satisfy retailers who don't like new sku's. Maybe this one is a win for the consumer but if v2 is cheaper it's not because they're doing you a favor.
TLDW: Netgear updated an unmanaged PoE switch to PoE+ by clearly labling both the device on it's compliance label, and the box in the usual spot with the full model number, but youtube channel had to call the company to have this obvious change pointed out to them.
@@EthanSeville I'm sure they did discontinue the v1 and this was just some remaining stock the seller still had of the v1. It's not like the seller put the v2 specs on the v1 listing. It was all properly labeled.
It's definitely confusing, and would have just printed "v2" on the front, but at least it is BETTER and not some shady downgrade to save the manufacturer 4 cents per unit.
By not marking version it makes it easier to continue selling old stock at the same price! Ubquiti does the same thing! Especially when they switched from passive poe to normal Poe, so if you didn't pay close attention you could smoke your hardware
I think that if a very experienced review team and media outlet can get confused by this, then the average consumer will definitely be confused as well. If a company is gonna make a different product they should clearly mark it as a different product, in a way that people will easily be able to understand what they are buying.
@@chrisj9961 yeah but it should at least be clearly visible, you shouldn’t have to check the sticker on the bottom of the box to see that it has a 200 instead of a 100
If they've never seen this crap, I wouldn't say they were "very" experienced. This is _SUPER_ common in the low-end device market. Sometimes you have to look at the serial number to tell what hardware is what.
Omitting the v2 label allows Netgear to sell remaining v1 product without discounts. I'm glad STH called out the change. Confusion potential is high. I'd be frustrated to find I paid more for a lesser product.
This will lead to confusion when the firmware is updated :( each version has different firmware and a different required update. sounds like an headache.
This is _SUPER_ common in the low-end device market. Sometimes you have to look at the serial number to tell what hardware is what. I guess none of your staff was around in the height of the WRT54 era. There are, what, 12 different versions of that thing? I have 3 versions of WRT300, and 2 WRT600. Manufacturing updates rapidly.
I think it's unacceptable. This is the kind of thing that would be extremely frustrating on the secondary market, I might see the v1 product on fb marketplace, then confirm it works for my application after finding the specs online for v2 and be out of luck when I plug everything in.
if you are in doubt ask seller to post a picture of the bottom of the unit or one that is actually readable because the small print often holds the details.
Pretty common in my experience for hardware revisions on home switches and routers without it necessarily clearly being labeled other than on the label on the bottom of the device. The granddaddy of all wireless routers, the WRT54G is up to hardware v8.2, but the v1 and v8 and everything in between is just labeled as a WRT54G and they all look exactly the same.
Netgear could have added a "+" at the end of the model number without affecting their SEO too much (or running afoul of the "PP" variant). That said, the second revision is for more power options, and less money. So, perhaps it's a marketing fail, but I wouldn't categorize this as malicious. The scammers, though... 🙄 We've got enough to watch out for. 👍
When I worked for one of Netgear's competitors we would also often do this. Many times this upgrade would be classified as a hardware revision rather than a new product, and the hardware version would be listed on the box label and device label but quite hard to find. For POE to POE+ we would usually also update the feature on the packaging. Often the reason is that there are a lot fewer internal development processes and regulatory approvals to launch a revised version of an existing product than to launch a totally new SKU with a new product number, so as long as the change is not a downgrade, we would often consider it a revision and phase out the old version. There would of course be done overlap in the market while old stock cleared out.
Netgear have been doing this for years. My old ADSL modem/router was like this. When they have a big volume product they usually find that they can offer more for less, so they revise the product.
We placed an order for 60 small lightly managed PoE Netgear switches from CDW. As we were updating firmware and programming we found we got 3 different revisions of the same switch. All met or exceeded the spec, and CDW didn't have a quick way to address so we kept them. It added work since we needed to validate and test additional firmware, and we needed documentation to highlight and adjust to slightly different GUI options. We bough more the following year there was one more revision before the model was continued. Netgear stopped updating the firmware on the early revision within a year or two, but the others kept getting security and functionality updates.
You people are doing wonderful job. Appreciate your efforts. Why Netgear and some other manufacturer are not visibly differentiating change of specs ? The probable logical reasons are as follows. 1. No co-ordination between development/production and marketing team. 2. Stock pile up at distributors and resellers. The moment manufacturer announce next gen product, these middle chain tends to return old stock or ask for credit note for extra push. 3. Outsourcing case of switch and packaging makes them hard re-print change of version. A real logistic issue. 4. Careless attitude about customers. [ More visible with Chinese companies ] 5. Bettering the product , even before competition notice. Request every one to pick up most logical reason.
Dear Patrick .. awesome content as always. I work a lot with the Media and entertainment industry here in Bollywood, India. What would be amazing to see is more tests geared towards ultra fast storage for the Media industry. Something that is the need of the hour is a fast nvme server for mastering / color grading use with 4-5 different clients with the capability to serve 8k EXR or DPX files to all the clients. 4k 16-bit DPX files are 50MB per frame so about 1200MB/Sec and 8k 16-bit DPX files are 202MB per frame so about 4.8GB/sec of thruput needed. What would be awesome is a build that can support 8k playback to atleast 4 clients at the same time. Even the ability to serve 4k to 5-8 clients would be awesome, but 8k is the future and building something to support that would be awesome. Nvme mesh by Excelero is something that is highly recommendedand we would love it, but it is incredibly expensive even for medium sized studios. A storage build that can do this would be HUGE !!! :) Thank you again and would love to work with you if the opportunity exists. Also William Harmon is a very dear friend of mine and said you are the perfect one to get in touch with for something like this :) Thank you for all the amazing content !
My guess is the packaging was already ordered for the original units in a high quantity to take advantage of the economies of scale, then when the hardware revisions were made well before the packaging order was complete they chose to do what is extremely common in the hardware industry, change the sticker over the barcode and use the boxes you already have on order to save $0.05 per unit. This is common practice. As someone who regularly purchases and installs technology for my job I've learned to always check the version number. If I'm looking for a model number, check if there is a dash and more numbers after the model numbers. And if you are buying anything off the shelf, check to see if there is a sticker relabeling the barcode and sku. I understand why this is done. It's perfectly reasonable when producing at high volumes. I'd prefer this to not having hardware updated simply because they would have to change the model number and throw out a bunch of packaging or cancel an order and incur a large fee because people can't be bothered to look for version numbers and research what they are buying.
I've experienced this. I bought a used Netgear 16 or 24 port switch on Craigslist years ago. I was looking for the link aggregation feature on the switch. I had done some research that indicated the model I had found supported link aggregation. When I got it home I couldn't figure out how to configure the feature. I was updating the firmware and in the process discovered I had a v1 instead of the v3 required for link aggregation. I ended up selling it and buying a smaller switch that supported link aggregation.
Hi Patrick, AND... I just checked Amazon and they are selling the 55w v1 version of the Netgear GS305P... Which is why I find it very difficult to trust Amazon to be able to purchase products that match the specifications that a reviewer is referring to. This is (by far) not the first instance that this has happened. Separately, and,historically, even more so, Netgear has had a long history of having more than one version of a product in the distribution pipeline at the same time. One time, I bought 3 12-port managed switches; all 3 had a different version of the firmware installed even though there was no differences on the model/version information on the packaging of each. At least that has apparently improved a (little) bit. Timely review, highly informative, thanks, Bruce
I had a similar issue with NetGear competitor TP-Link with the TL-SG105 series. The only difference is that I was the one that screwed up wanted to buy a 5-port PoE switch with basic web interface (essentially to allow remote monitoring). And didn't pay attention enough ended up buying the TL-SG105E (not PoE manageable when looking at specs), then the TL-SG1005P (unmanaged PoE) when needed the TL-SG105PE… Notice that the reference does change and for 10-20€ devices you don't really care ordering them on a Monday morning… Thus I now with TP-Link I have to look at the end of the reference for no letters if not managed, E if manageable, P if PoE or PE for both. So yes model reference do matter especially if look upon manufacturer web-site for specifications prior buying on amazon where vendors may have the older version in stock.
I feel quite strongly that there should be a clear difference in the product name if the basic functionality has changed, even if it has changed for the "better". I might buy one and get a v2 version then see another for sale and be disappointed by a v1 version that couldn't do the same. Now I'm reluctant to buy any as I don't know what I'll get.
Exactly my thoughts. If v1 would not still be around in stores, then fine this silent upgrade would be good. But as they are concurrently available for purchase this creates possible frustration as you don't know clearly what you will get. Sometimes manufactures does this when they still have v1 around in stock, to sell them. Because if you loudly say there is new, better version ,then nobody will buy v1 and it will rot in warehouse. Alternatively if not in manufactures stock, then in distributors stock.
V2 needs to be printed on the front. I've actually ran into this issue before with a 12 port Netgear switch. The v2 and v3 had management but the v1 didn't. I tried to figure it out for several hours before I found I has the v1 that wasn't well labeled
Regardless of upgrade or not, the clear message to the market should be "if you change the hardware or spec, change the model number". Nuanced messages get lost on most, and it creates more confusion for purchasers (both business and consumers). For AData it feels like a bait and switch, v1 is high performance, gets good review, etc. and then once the product is established, v2 comes out to increase profit margins. For Netgear it may allow them to stay competitive in the market by having better specs on that switch, but without changing the model number allows the inventory left in the channel to get an unearned boost, drive returns and distrust in the brand name. A different product needs a different model number.
I think it's a problem when someone reads a review of a v2, and the reviewer did not know, that it is a v2, and thus not noting the fact that there is an older version with worse specs. This may lead to someone buying the old v1 by accident, thinking it has the specs of the v2. If there was a v2 in the product name, it would be obvious to everyone, that this is different from the non-v2 model.
I seem to remember Linksys doing something similar with WRT54G or a wireless router where the later models had a lower spec CPU and dropped Linux for a different OS at around revision 6.
Well, as someone who remembers more than once buying pallets of printers/scanners etc days before the manufacturer would suddenly EOL the model or even the whole range without telling their authorised resellers, I know how that sort of thing really annoys everyone (except the customer). So this is just Netgear looking after their distys, VARs and resellers and not dumping unsaleable stock on them.
These kind of tactics is why I usually just get the 305P. I've been duped before with underperforming switches. 16 port POE switch of which only 4 or 8 are actually POE and such. Great content, thank you for the clarification!
That's some good insight, the bigger problem is when buying the switch online you have absolutely no idea what version it is until you open the box. Go to Amazon and there are many Netgear switches they sell that are no longer supported.
That’s likely the point. They want to update the model with newer cheaper components without obsoleting all the products already on shelves. Scummy, but completely understandable.
@@klafbang Yeah I get the idea they want to get rid of old stock, fine, reduce the price. However, if the product is no longer supported when it goes wrong Netgear just tells you it's no longer supported !! It's happened to me with Netgear. Now I know the scam. With Netgear it's horrible to try and identify products, versions, firmware, support levels. If you see a good deal on a switch ...... better do your homework before getting stung.
@@neogrid9999 Completely. Except here's it not really a new vs old situation. It's the same switch, the upgrades are only incidental (because new chips are cheaper but has more features or fit better into their supply line). But then, I only buy Netgear for "disposable" equipment. If a 50$ 5 port switch dies, I replace it, I don't get it fixed.
All seems reasonable to me. If they pulled something like that on a commercial product I feel like they'd be in trouble, but I bet anybody looking for a small 4-port like those is essentially looking for, as you said, a power adapter for some IP cams or WAPs. The only other problem I see is maybe picking up some new old stock down the road when you're expecting a V2 but get a V1 -- but again, power adapter. I doubt home users will need poe+ or even know the difference.
To me, the difference is important: Let say a person that is not technical end up selling or wanting to buy the devices. You may not know which one your will get in the end. Plus, if they have different UPC / EAN barcodes, they should be separate products codes. Their values are also different for someone needing the powerful one. It should always be clear if you have a V1 or a V2 on hand.
Not the first time they have done this. Pretty sure the GS724TP that I was looking to buy nearly 10 years ago had a V2 revision that they did not really publish with any kind of clarity. It made buying the V2 version second hand very difficult, as most people would just list it as a GS724TP, not knowing there was a V2. I absolutely agree a new model number should have been given to it to avoid confusion.
I think it's paramount that neatgear start labeling their equipment more specifically. I recently bought a netgear Orbi AX4200 home mesh network set up. Turns out that there are 5 different models of AX4200 so after going to microcenter 3 days in a row to do a return/ swap for the correct model, I just gave up on netgear and bought an Asus zenWiFi AX6000 home mesh network set up that took only ten minutes to unpack setup and register (works flawlessly). I'll never use netgear again.
Netgear has been doing this for decades, had one of their ADSL modems in the mid 2000s that was v3 (you specifically wanted the v3 as it had a different controller), was labelled in the same way on the underside label but not the front.
Yeah they did release at least four versions of the DG 834 ADSL router and the v3 was a LOT better than the v1. Worked for an ISP back in 2004 and the headaches from trying to get customers to verify what model they had....
I’d generally say that if a change is fully backwards compatible with previous use cases, it isn’t a big deal if they don’t make it a new product. In this case, power budget per port is higher and overall power budget for the switch is higher so it should be fine. Only issue would be if somebody was looking at the v2 specs and bought one of the v1 switches second-hand somewhere.
I’ve used Netgear soho managed switch, like GS108E, bought from the same reseller for years. I’ve got rev.1, rev.2, and rev.3. All very different in term of capabilities, especially on how you access the mgmt. functions. In fact it seems to be pot luck which rev. you get. I get rev.3, and then a month later another order got me a rev.2, they are clearly stocked as if they are identical. I assume the revision is not made clear to allow resellers to handle inventory like this.
Interesting; I was about to buy the first one listed on Amazon. I then decided to check a review first and found this video. Looking closer on Amazon the V1 is the first listed at £47.49. The next must be a V2 although that isn't stated but the 63W and Poe+ is at £63.44. Then we have the another V2 at £39.59. You have just saved me ~£8 for a better product. Woops I have just noticed 4 - 6 weeks delivery when added to the basket as it comes from the USA.
They’re not calling attention to it because there is still the original product version that’s out in the retail channels. So they don’t want all that inventory to stop selling.
I am a new subscriber and autistic, hence, really do like your attention to detail. Those marketing guys at Netgear, need to up their game or is it the fact, why draw attention to the V2; IMO it’s cheaper and they still have many of the older versions to sell; that’s my reasoning. Looking forward to your new setup in August/September. Hopefully, your faithful and new subscribers will understand it’s a win-win for all:)
I find it unacceptable because even when there are spec wins, sometimes those wins come with lower stability. I.e. not reengineering the mechanical or power side to properly deal with heat or add the additional tolerances. Though I understand the companies wishing to keep their product’s momentum, it often makes for more problems for the consumers or reviewers if it is not clearly a different product. (Even ignoring the obvious bait and switch tactics of some.) Putting “v2” on the front and carrying that consistent naming throughout the packaging would have been sufficient though.
I have noticed that both netgear and tp-link are particularly bad with this. On the wifi side of things sometimes rev numbers go as high as 7. And there's zero discernable difference. Not even when the spec difference in the case of one of the access points between revs was one had a 10/100mbit spec on their ports, and the next one had gigabit spec. With no clear labelling on the difference in ports at all. Despite being potentially 3 times faster with wireless workloads in that particular case.
In my opinion, Netgear should have make a V2 as separate product model. Like calling it "GS305P+". To me there is a fine distinction between this and WD calling both CMR & SMR the same product name. While in both cases, they are bad for consumer, but in hind sight, a person who are using POE switch & sticking a RED drive in a NAS should at least have some knowledge, or at the least knowing where to look for solution to the problem that arise. The separation between the WD & Netgear cases are that, WD SMR RED drive can cause performance penalty in some use cases, the product can still function regardless of how the use will stick CMR or SMR drives in any host machine. Netgear is differ in the fact that a person may have order two units and expect them to work the same and then one works and other doesn't. Eg: a person order one and got the V2 version and stick it in the front of a warehouse/building for POE+ camera, then decide to get a second one to stick to the back of the warehouse/building for the same POE+ camera models, but this time he/she got received a v1 version. This is not like Canon have their dSLR camera name like 5D or 5D mark II, because that "mark II" is actually part of the model name, from the manufacturer to distributor/reseller to consumer, they all understand that this "mark II" that tag along at the end is also part of the product model and not a revision or the same product.
I agree with you on the clarification of differences in the models. Yes Amazon should do something too about the naming scheme as well as Netgear. if someone like me was looking up that switch on Amazon or elsewhere it should be clearly noted and Identified. P.O.E. and P.O.E. + and P.O.E. ++ have different specs and only work with certain devices.
This is absolutely a problem, and it isn't just Netgear that does this. I just ordered a LInksys EA9500 router to replace one that went bad. I expected to receive the V2 version of the router, which has been made since 2017. Instead I received a V1.1. Turns out Linksys made both versions simultaneously, allowing unscrupulous vendors to buy v1.1 routers at reduced cost and sell them at V2 prices. It looks like a win, but it isn't. Why do manufacturers do things designed solely to help out unscrupulous online sellers?
Id like to see a video on the TP-Link Omada series switches (Specifically performance) I think these have the potential to be a good alternative to unifi for folks that might have a little tighter budget but want a SDN type of switch.
If the webshop/store makes the specs of the product clear and you don't get the lesser spec if you buy the higher spec one then it's okay. I don't really have a problem with this one. The webshop that I shop at used the v3 in the product header when I bought my gs105v3. So the webshop corrected netgear confusion. Netgear doesn't win any points with it's confusing naming but it isn't ripping you off like the others mentioned either. For me the product name really isn't that important, I'm mainly looking at the specs that I need the price and the brand (for reputation of quality).
I recently saw some posts complaining about long alphanumeric model designation for TVs and monitors, but I prefer that to not having a way to check specs from the model
An upgrade is significantly better than a downgrade. But I still think it should always be called out, simply because of the fact that old versions don't disappear from sales channels and now people might see the review for the new version and end up buying the old version.
Netgear has been doing stuff like this for years, so I'm not surprised. the fact that they actually changed the label on the bottom, and their support pages / website will actually make a mention of it, so I'm not anywhere near as bothered by it as the CMR -> SMR crap or the performance-affecting SSD changes. PoE+ is backwards compatible to PoE, so there's no real harm to a consumer here.
Long story short: There was a product refresh mid-cycle, and the team at STH bought the old version as there's no way to identify which one you get unless you a) know about the refresh, and b) look specifically for the 63W PoE+ version.
This is normal voor Netgear. I had a breakdown of my Trusted 16 port unmanaged switch a few years ago. And when the replacement got to me, it was a v2 unit. The v1 had been running sinds the beginning of 2008. Since it's overall same or better then the old version. So I'm fine with. My issue is with lowerperforming crap, that replaces the "Reviewed" product on the same sku. IMHO Netgear gets a pass. I don't know how product registration testing and certification works, but I imagine this is the cheaper option for Netgear.
I can understand why they may not have wanted to update the model number being printed on the housing (this may require retooling part of an expensive assembly line and changing box details), but they already had to make a printing change to update the PoE power under the ports. Maybe the cheapest option was just update the PoE details under the ports and update 2 stickers (underside and box stickers). Personally, I think they should have put the V2 in the model number, since the product now has different specifications than before.
I ran into something similar many years ago with AlliedTelesis 4/5 port unmanaged switches. One hardware revision would not pass 802.1X frames and another would. Again, same model number like the Netgear in this video. The one advantage I had, was the older hardware used physically different case and had still used physically separate straight/cross-over uplink port. (yes, that long ago...)
You said it right. “Switching specs is not really cool.” It makes this kind of thing the norm which makes it harder to go after companies like western digital in class action suits.
I have different versions of the TP-Link TL-SG108E. But the differences aren't that big as far as I know. There is only a very small label on the bottom that tells you which model it is. And you can still buy the older versions. (Though I think the v3 is blue while the v5 is black) But they should be clearer which version you are buying.
It doesn't feel malicious because of the upgraded nature, but it's definitely confusing to end consumers. In the context of commercial laptops: I've gotten feedback from some admin friends that they appreciate consistency in naming from one product generation to the next, because it's simpler for them to handle purchasing and equipment management. Maybe Netgear is basing their naming strategy on that feedback?
I say Netgear could do better here. It's not as bad as a the whole SMR thing but it could be. Imagen you need a POE+ so you read a review of the V2 then you head over to Amazon and get the same model number but end up with a V1. (amazon listings don't carry many specs anyway) While from a production point of view it's moved forward not backward so it's ok they don't control the supply chain so it's impossible to say how many people will end up short changed.
Patrick, vendors need to clearly label products so consumers don't get confused. Especially products where they do not sell direct. A consumer buying from a distributor should never wonder what they get. Considering information is often aggregated from the vendor site, reviewers, product for sale pages, spec sheets, and manuals, it's critical to clearly communicate what you are getting. It may seem harmless to upgrade the product "for free" until you realize someone may still buy the old product thinking it's exactly the same as the new product, then be disenfranchised like some of the other commenters.
My biggest similar issue was when same netgear changed R2 of a rotuer to be incompatible with open firmware, without any notification of an item being R2. That wasn't a huge win.
I suspect the issue here is that companies ship stock out and it sits in warehouses. They make feature improvements to the product line without changing the model numbers. They might do that for a number of reasons like inventory/warehousing, ERP system limitations, regulatory and industry labeling issues, and so on. Or they could be doing it with nefarious intentions to sell off old stock to customers that don't really care. I can say that in the medical device industry, in most cases you need to have the ability to recall a product and so you must track a whole bunch of stuff throughout the product lifecycle. You also must register your product in multiple countries, which requires money, time, regulatory review, QA audits, testing, etc. The product is also tied to a manufacturer and changing it (in case of a buyout) is difficult. You have to do this for all new products. In many cases "revisions" are far less intensive. So I wouldn't be surprised if it's a similar case. Netgear sells all over the world and this stuff gets extremely costly and time consuming. If ultimately you aren't going to carry the "old" product revision anymore (PoE model) and the changes are minimal to turn it into a PoE+ model, then it probably makes a lot of sense for the company to treat it as a revision of the existing product. Personally, I think the solution to this is to stop production of old revisions for X amount of time, recall any old revisions, and ship out the new revision. OR for vendors (like Amazon) to properly label the product. Amazon and many companies do a shit job of this all over the place though.
Any decent support setup would demand replacement gear have the same part number as the original. Any company that can't be bothered updating the part number when specs change, should not be considered a reliable source of replacement parts.
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I would certainly want them to label it and I am even leaning to the point that manufacturers should be mandated to do so. Partly because there is also the risk that customers can end up getting an inferior product to the one reviewed, despite the same markings. The fact that people got a better product here shouldn’t change this. Imagine buying a batch of these, while not being aware, and then finding out your POE+ devices are failing on half of your switches only find out half of them were on the v1 switch, because your supplier couldn’t tell the difference. This would happen if you were aware of the new specs, but had forgotten about the old ones and your supplier had the older ones mixed in with the new ones.
Been a common issue with netgear switches that's been a bug bear of mine. Especially when you are wanting to keep firmware up to date and the hardware version is not in the gui so unless you recall or have a note of it, then need to crawl under desks or take off wall etc..to find the version on the actual hardware. pain in the .... imo. EDIT: firmware updates are hardware version specific.
I have the GS116Ev2 and i had this exact confusion because netgear doesnt label the front with the v2. Was upgrading the firmware on it and i was perplexed as to why it didnt like the download from netgear for the GS116E. derp
On second thought, I would not mind if Netgear would release an upgrade of their 8 ports gigabit switch like the GS308 model with eight ports 10Gbe switch for the same $20 price under same name. I am sure that will sell better than hot cakes.
It's likely that the boxes were already in production and changing the box production was costly. This is why hardware revisions are usually labeled on the sticker covering the original barcode. If you already have on order a half million boxes then revise the hardware after producing 200,000 units, you simply change the sticker labeling to save on cost.
I have different feelings on this. I think that consumers should know what they paying from the manufacturer. However, I would guess Netgear had a bunch of the housings but ran out the POE V1 controllers/power regulators. They most likely had a bunch of the POE+ controllers laying around and just transitioned to them. Changing the paint would cost money, so they just didn't change that on the front of the housing. It does appear that they did pass that saving on to the consumer! Changing the stickers most likely didn't cost anything extra and for compliance, so they did change those. So I guess I'm okay with it because they did pass on the savings to consumers and upgraded the unit.
In my opinion, for the label on the website, it's amzon's fault ( wrong image with wrong product ) A lot of product got the same stuff : product familly on the box and precise model on the sticker with the bar code. It's the case for CPU for exemple and a lot of various technical stuff ( power supply , UPS , ... ) You just need to check the exact reference you need on the manufacturer website.
It is not always as simple as the higher spec'ed product is superior to the lower spec'ed product. Sometimes products have very subtle quirks that have nothing to do with what the specs have to say, and if you have tested a configuration with with a particular device, and then role it out with a device that looks the same but it very subtly different (even if it, at a superficial level, is simply the original with an extra capability), then all of out original testing is void. Even in a more informal setting, without any formal testing, if you have a network that uses the V2 product, and the switch fails, so to look around and see you have what looks like an old spare of what looks like exactly the same product you have been using originally, but unbeknownst to you the spare is actually a V1 of the product, you can have fun trying to work out why replacing one switch with another one that looks the same fails to work, and if gives Netgear a reputation for poor quality control.
This is actually pretty common in budget consumer grade electronics. Samsung does this with some of their tablets and car manufacturers do something similar every time one of their models gets a facelift. I assume it is easier to just upgrade the specs of an existing line, then explaining every other customer why their product from 5 years ago is no longer avalable, "forcing them to upgrade, even though their old switch was working just fine a few days ago." Though, buying the old version based on the review of the newer version hurts at least a little bit.
By not marking version it makes it easier to continue selling old stock at the same price! Ubquiti does the same thing! Especially when they switched from passive poe to normal Poe, so if you didn't pay close attention you could smoke your hardware
Here's the thing. If the new model offered better specs, but they never posted them anywhere, that's a win. Everyone gets at least what they expected, and maybe something more. The problem here is someone buying one, and it meets their needs, so when they need to expand, they buy another one of the exact same model product, happen to get an old one, and it doesn't do what they need. Products sold with different specs promised need different model numbers that are clearly distinguishable by customers.
👍👍👍👍👍Thank You Patrick for Voicing it Out! I WILL BE VERY VERY VERY MAD if I bought the PoE version when I actually wanted the PoE+ version. And sometimes tt is only a couple of bucks diff, or worst a couple of bucks more affordable. Especially after spending a great deal of time researching. Many times I ditched a "better" product or manufecturer due to this type of stupidity. Yes, it is mind numbing to remember the diff btw 123xyz & 123xzy. I bought the LG 27" 4K - LG 27UN880 UltraFine instead of the Acer Predator 273 series just b/c I am not sure if I bought the one that is best value for my money spent when I suspect tt even the sellers might be confused themselves, knowingly or otherwise. So, since I am spending my money, DON'T Waste my time/dime on these idiotic vendors!!!!! Spend my time & money elsewhere. Finally, got off my chest 😉!
Unfortunately this is not new for Netgear, and it's even more annoying with their routers and access points. I had a router back when the best I could get was ASDL, and it was a V1. Eventually they stopped releasing firmware updates for it, but it seemed like they were still making the router. A little more digging through their site revealed they'd released a V 2 and a V3, that were basically identical, but for some reason couldn't use the same firmware. Not a huge deal as I wound up upgrading to a newer router and eventually FIOS, and got a good 11 years out of it before it fried itself a few months back. That one had a couple of revisions as well over its lifetime that were not obviously labeled unless you looked up the full product number.
I hate when they do this and use the same Amazon listing. Nothing worse than reading the reviews, hearing the capabilities and limitations, then getting something different. I recently bought a TP-LINK 10G NIC and the reviews all said it had Linux drivers. Turns out this was only true for the V3 not the V4. Had to return it and get a new NIC.
Nah, Netgear aren’t getting a pass for this. They should make it more clear what you’re getting. For example, I’ve got two of their ReadyNAS 2100s and I recently discovered that there’s an upgrade to the firmware that can be applied. The first box upgraded perfectly, but the second one bricked, needing a lengthy amount of fiddling about to recover it. Turns out that the first one is a v2, which has a 64 bit CPU, and the other is a v1, which has a weaker 32 bit processor which won’t handle the newer firmware. The only way to know is to look at the label on the underside of the unit, which is hard to do when it’s in a rack. The screening on the front of both is identical, leading to my confusion.
I think it's not a huge problem, but I think giving it a new, obvious, model name would have been best. Worst case I can think of is someone thinking they're getting a v2 in their online order and getting an old stock v1 instead. Then they don't have the poe+ they potentially wanted.
Tp-link is kind of done the same thing the TL-SG105E and TL-SG108E have different revisions with different firmware, and the newest revision supports Omada where the earlier ones not so much
the change is a huge win... for someone who bought the v1 first and was then pleasantly surprised by the v2. the opposite situation, though, would be a huge loss.
By not marking version it makes it easier to continue selling old stock at the same price! Ubquiti does the same thing! Especially when they switched from passive poe to normal Poe, so if you didn't pay close attention you could smoke your hardware
But if you buy the v2 and then later buy another and get old stock from another vendor, you’re going to get a lesser unit. It’s false advertising.
This labeling scheme has been Netgear's standard for as far back as I can recall, and that's pretty far back. I agree that they could do a better job in terms of consistency and visibility, though - I just don't want anyone to think this is a new sin of Netgear's.
By not marking version it makes it easier to continue selling old stock at the same price! Ubquiti does the same thing! Especially when they switched from passive poe to normal Poe, so if you didn't pay close attention you could smoke your hardware
Totally agree, Netgear has been doing this for decades, some products have four or five hardware versions of the same product name. It can be a real pain as many times they have separate firmware updates and the early versions are no longer updated or have different accessories.
Many times on Amazon people used to ask what actual version was for sale or what version people were reviewing (when we could comment).
If these guys are just noticing this about Netgear and how they market and name their product versions it does not say much about their reviewing products.
I had a ReadyNAS years ago that ran into the same problem - major architecture changes between V1 and V2 and only a minor SKU difference.
@@jaycahow4667 perhaps it says they spend their time on higher end equipment?
@@williamp6800 Netgear does the same thing on their higher end stuff as well...............
Netgear has done this with all of their switches. I purchased several GS724T switches years back and it was a pain to purchase the right ones because the V2 and V3 switches were being sold at the same time and I wanted the V3 model as it was more powerful than the V2.
I dealt with exactly this.. except V3 vs V4
Same!
Yep, I had a v3 that broke, got a new one that turned out to be a v4. It was a pleasant surprise to find out the newer version was passively cooled.
All consumer grade networking equipment makers have done this with all of their equipment since probably forever.
That linksys router everyone had in the 2000's was actually like ten different routers and it was up to god which one you actually got and as such whether it was good to install ddwrt on it.
Its poor practice that only exists to satisfy retailers who don't like new sku's. Maybe this one is a win for the consumer but if v2 is cheaper it's not because they're doing you a favor.
WiFi APs / Routers also. The WNDR3700 has 7 hw versions, still just one name and shop/support site
TLDW: Netgear updated an unmanaged PoE switch to PoE+ without labeling it clearly as a v2.
Learning from Dell's playbook. Lol 😂
TLDW: Netgear updated an unmanaged PoE switch to PoE+ by clearly labling both the device on it's compliance label, and the box in the usual spot with the full model number, but youtube channel had to call the company to have this obvious change pointed out to them.
They could have just discontinued the v1 and took down the lists but yeah should have add v2 to the end if your gonna keep both
Bait and switch :-)
@@EthanSeville I'm sure they did discontinue the v1 and this was just some remaining stock the seller still had of the v1. It's not like the seller put the v2 specs on the v1 listing. It was all properly labeled.
It's definitely confusing, and would have just printed "v2" on the front, but at least it is BETTER and not some shady downgrade to save the manufacturer 4 cents per unit.
By not marking version it makes it easier to continue selling old stock at the same price! Ubquiti does the same thing! Especially when they switched from passive poe to normal Poe, so if you didn't pay close attention you could smoke your hardware
@@cdoublejj Don't remind me...
@@sanders555 seconded
I think that if a very experienced review team and media outlet can get confused by this, then the average consumer will definitely be confused as well. If a company is gonna make a different product they should clearly mark it as a different product, in a way that people will easily be able to understand what they are buying.
@@chrisj9961 yeah but it should at least be clearly visible, you shouldn’t have to check the sticker on the bottom of the box to see that it has a 200 instead of a 100
If they've never seen this crap, I wouldn't say they were "very" experienced. This is _SUPER_ common in the low-end device market. Sometimes you have to look at the serial number to tell what hardware is what.
Omitting the v2 label allows Netgear to sell remaining v1 product without discounts.
I'm glad STH called out the change. Confusion potential is high. I'd be frustrated to find I paid more for a lesser product.
This will lead to confusion when the firmware is updated :( each version has different firmware and a different required update. sounds like an headache.
No one will care that STH have pointed this out.
Most in the industry have known about this, for Netgear and other manufacturers, for decades.
This is _SUPER_ common in the low-end device market. Sometimes you have to look at the serial number to tell what hardware is what. I guess none of your staff was around in the height of the WRT54 era. There are, what, 12 different versions of that thing? I have 3 versions of WRT300, and 2 WRT600. Manufacturing updates rapidly.
Wiki actually lists 22 WRT54 variants
I think it's unacceptable. This is the kind of thing that would be extremely frustrating on the secondary market, I might see the v1 product on fb marketplace, then confirm it works for my application after finding the specs online for v2 and be out of luck when I plug everything in.
if you are in doubt ask seller to post a picture of the bottom of the unit or one that is actually readable because the small print often holds the details.
@@mikkelbreiler8916 That's good advice, but something that shouldn't ever be necessary
Pretty common in my experience for hardware revisions on home switches and routers without it necessarily clearly being labeled other than on the label on the bottom of the device. The granddaddy of all wireless routers, the WRT54G is up to hardware v8.2, but the v1 and v8 and everything in between is just labeled as a WRT54G and they all look exactly the same.
Netgear could have added a "+" at the end of the model number without affecting their SEO too much (or running afoul of the "PP" variant). That said, the second revision is for more power options, and less money. So, perhaps it's a marketing fail, but I wouldn't categorize this as malicious. The scammers, though... 🙄 We've got enough to watch out for. 👍
It's called dumping inventory and you have a point about SEO.
When I worked for one of Netgear's competitors we would also often do this. Many times this upgrade would be classified as a hardware revision rather than a new product, and the hardware version would be listed on the box label and device label but quite hard to find. For POE to POE+ we would usually also update the feature on the packaging. Often the reason is that there are a lot fewer internal development processes and regulatory approvals to launch a revised version of an existing product than to launch a totally new SKU with a new product number, so as long as the change is not a downgrade, we would often consider it a revision and phase out the old version. There would of course be done overlap in the market while old stock cleared out.
0:50 lol "a quick background" with the new background
Nothing to see there... unless...
The hat feels they are moving to Texas lol
A wild hat appears!
Netgear have been doing this for years. My old ADSL modem/router was like this. When they have a big volume product they usually find that they can offer more for less, so they revise the product.
TP-link are pretty good at labeling their new iteratative products as V2, V3 etc. Absolutely should be clear with this.
Netgear has been doing this sort of version iterating for a long time. I first noticed it years ago with their consumer routers.
We placed an order for 60 small lightly managed PoE Netgear switches from CDW. As we were updating firmware and programming we found we got 3 different revisions of the same switch. All met or exceeded the spec, and CDW didn't have a quick way to address so we kept them. It added work since we needed to validate and test additional firmware, and we needed documentation to highlight and adjust to slightly different GUI options. We bough more the following year there was one more revision before the model was continued. Netgear stopped updating the firmware on the early revision within a year or two, but the others kept getting security and functionality updates.
You people are doing wonderful job. Appreciate your efforts.
Why Netgear and some other manufacturer are not visibly differentiating change of specs ? The probable logical reasons are as follows.
1. No co-ordination between development/production and marketing team.
2. Stock pile up at distributors and resellers. The moment manufacturer announce next gen product, these middle chain tends to return old stock or ask for credit note for extra push.
3. Outsourcing case of switch and packaging makes them hard re-print change of version. A real logistic issue.
4. Careless attitude about customers. [ More visible with Chinese companies ]
5. Bettering the product , even before competition notice.
Request every one to pick up most logical reason.
Dear Patrick .. awesome content as always. I work a lot with the Media and entertainment industry here in Bollywood, India. What would be amazing to see is more tests geared towards ultra fast storage for the Media industry. Something that is the need of the hour is a fast nvme server for mastering / color grading use with 4-5 different clients with the capability to serve 8k EXR or DPX files to all the clients. 4k 16-bit DPX files are 50MB per frame so about 1200MB/Sec and 8k 16-bit DPX files are 202MB per frame so about 4.8GB/sec of thruput needed. What would be awesome is a build that can support 8k playback to atleast 4 clients at the same time. Even the ability to serve 4k to 5-8 clients would be awesome, but 8k is the future and building something to support that would be awesome.
Nvme mesh by Excelero is something that is highly recommendedand we would love it, but it is incredibly expensive even for medium sized studios. A storage build that can do this would be HUGE !!! :) Thank you again and would love to work with you if the opportunity exists.
Also William Harmon is a very dear friend of mine and said you are the perfect one to get in touch with for something like this :)
Thank you for all the amazing content !
Probably will start doing that type of content more as the new studio is built/ finished.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Thank you soo much for the reply and I honestly cannot wait :) Have a great day/evening :)
Thanks for the cool content, appreciate your efforts over the years.
I appreciate that!
My guess is the packaging was already ordered for the original units in a high quantity to take advantage of the economies of scale, then when the hardware revisions were made well before the packaging order was complete they chose to do what is extremely common in the hardware industry, change the sticker over the barcode and use the boxes you already have on order to save $0.05 per unit.
This is common practice. As someone who regularly purchases and installs technology for my job I've learned to always check the version number. If I'm looking for a model number, check if there is a dash and more numbers after the model numbers. And if you are buying anything off the shelf, check to see if there is a sticker relabeling the barcode and sku.
I understand why this is done. It's perfectly reasonable when producing at high volumes. I'd prefer this to not having hardware updated simply because they would have to change the model number and throw out a bunch of packaging or cancel an order and incur a large fee because people can't be bothered to look for version numbers and research what they are buying.
I've experienced this. I bought a used Netgear 16 or 24 port switch on Craigslist years ago. I was looking for the link aggregation feature on the switch. I had done some research that indicated the model I had found supported link aggregation. When I got it home I couldn't figure out how to configure the feature. I was updating the firmware and in the process discovered I had a v1 instead of the v3 required for link aggregation.
I ended up selling it and buying a smaller switch that supported link aggregation.
Was looking for some cheap & decent (managed) switches and can't find much info on it. Greatly appreciated, thx
Hi Patrick,
AND...
I just checked Amazon and they are selling the 55w v1 version of the Netgear GS305P...
Which is why I find it very difficult to trust Amazon to be able to purchase products that match the specifications that a reviewer is referring to. This is (by far) not the first instance that this has happened.
Separately, and,historically, even more so, Netgear has had a long history of having more than one version of a product in the distribution pipeline at the same time. One time, I bought 3 12-port managed switches; all 3 had a different version of the firmware installed even though there was no differences on the model/version information on the packaging of each. At least that has apparently improved a (little) bit.
Timely review, highly informative, thanks, Bruce
I had a similar issue with NetGear competitor TP-Link with the TL-SG105 series.
The only difference is that I was the one that screwed up wanted to buy a 5-port PoE switch with basic web interface (essentially to allow remote monitoring).
And didn't pay attention enough ended up buying the TL-SG105E (not PoE manageable when looking at specs), then the TL-SG1005P (unmanaged PoE) when needed the TL-SG105PE…
Notice that the reference does change and for 10-20€ devices you don't really care ordering them on a Monday morning…
Thus I now with TP-Link I have to look at the end of the reference for no letters if not managed, E if manageable, P if PoE or PE for both.
So yes model reference do matter especially if look upon manufacturer web-site for specifications prior buying on amazon where vendors may have the older version in stock.
I have run into this with Netgear specifically. They do this all the time and I have learned to thoroughly research their switches before purchase.
I feel quite strongly that there should be a clear difference in the product name if the basic functionality has changed, even if it has changed for the "better". I might buy one and get a v2 version then see another for sale and be disappointed by a v1 version that couldn't do the same. Now I'm reluctant to buy any as I don't know what I'll get.
Exactly my thoughts. If v1 would not still be around in stores, then fine this silent upgrade would be good. But as they are concurrently available for purchase this creates possible frustration as you don't know clearly what you will get.
Sometimes manufactures does this when they still have v1 around in stock, to sell them. Because if you loudly say there is new, better version ,then nobody will buy v1 and it will rot in warehouse. Alternatively if not in manufactures stock, then in distributors stock.
I love how Patrick seems so excited about every video
V2 needs to be printed on the front. I've actually ran into this issue before with a 12 port Netgear switch. The v2 and v3 had management but the v1 didn't. I tried to figure it out for several hours before I found I has the v1 that wasn't well labeled
Regardless of upgrade or not, the clear message to the market should be "if you change the hardware or spec, change the model number". Nuanced messages get lost on most, and it creates more confusion for purchasers (both business and consumers). For AData it feels like a bait and switch, v1 is high performance, gets good review, etc. and then once the product is established, v2 comes out to increase profit margins. For Netgear it may allow them to stay competitive in the market by having better specs on that switch, but without changing the model number allows the inventory left in the channel to get an unearned boost, drive returns and distrust in the brand name. A different product needs a different model number.
I think it's a problem when someone reads a review of a v2, and the reviewer did not know, that it is a v2, and thus not noting the fact that there is an older version with worse specs.
This may lead to someone buying the old v1 by accident, thinking it has the specs of the v2.
If there was a v2 in the product name, it would be obvious to everyone, that this is different from the non-v2 model.
At least, Netgear improves the product, updates the product pages, box and adds V2/V3 on the product itself. Instead of downgrading and not telling.
I seem to remember Linksys doing something similar with WRT54G or a wireless router where the later models had a lower spec CPU and dropped Linux for a different OS at around revision 6.
Well, as someone who remembers more than once buying pallets of printers/scanners etc days before the manufacturer would suddenly EOL the model or even the whole range without telling their authorised resellers, I know how that sort of thing really annoys everyone (except the customer). So this is just Netgear looking after their distys, VARs and resellers and not dumping unsaleable stock on them.
These kind of tactics is why I usually just get the 305P. I've been duped before with underperforming switches. 16 port POE switch of which only 4 or 8 are actually POE and such. Great content, thank you for the clarification!
That's some good insight, the bigger problem is when buying the switch online you have absolutely no idea what version it is until you open the box. Go to Amazon and there are many Netgear switches they sell that are no longer supported.
That’s likely the point. They want to update the model with newer cheaper components without obsoleting all the products already on shelves. Scummy, but completely understandable.
@@klafbang Yeah I get the idea they want to get rid of old stock, fine, reduce the price. However, if the product is no longer supported when it goes wrong Netgear just tells you it's no longer supported !! It's happened to me with Netgear. Now I know the scam. With Netgear it's horrible to try and identify products, versions, firmware, support levels. If you see a good deal on a switch ...... better do your homework before getting stung.
@@neogrid9999 Completely. Except here's it not really a new vs old situation. It's the same switch, the upgrades are only incidental (because new chips are cheaper but has more features or fit better into their supply line).
But then, I only buy Netgear for "disposable" equipment. If a 50$ 5 port switch dies, I replace it, I don't get it fixed.
@@klafbang yes netgear when thought of as disposable is correct. I wish I had instead bought FS kit, live and learn !
All seems reasonable to me. If they pulled something like that on a commercial product I feel like they'd be in trouble, but I bet anybody looking for a small 4-port like those is essentially looking for, as you said, a power adapter for some IP cams or WAPs. The only other problem I see is maybe picking up some new old stock down the road when you're expecting a V2 but get a V1 -- but again, power adapter. I doubt home users will need poe+ or even know the difference.
In theory it's an upgrade, but a retailer might be working through old non-PoE+ stock when you expect the PoE+ one
if I wanted the V2 and the V1 arrived at my door I would have been rather upset so I think there should be a bit better disclosure regardless
To me, the difference is important: Let say a person that is not technical end up selling or wanting to buy the devices. You may not know which one your will get in the end. Plus, if they have different UPC / EAN barcodes, they should be separate products codes. Their values are also different for someone needing the powerful one. It should always be clear if you have a V1 or a V2 on hand.
Not the first time they have done this. Pretty sure the GS724TP that I was looking to buy nearly 10 years ago had a V2 revision that they did not really publish with any kind of clarity. It made buying the V2 version second hand very difficult, as most people would just list it as a GS724TP, not knowing there was a V2. I absolutely agree a new model number should have been given to it to avoid confusion.
I think it's paramount that neatgear start labeling their equipment more specifically. I recently bought a netgear Orbi AX4200 home mesh network set up. Turns out that there are 5 different models of AX4200 so after going to microcenter 3 days in a row to do a return/ swap for the correct model, I just gave up on netgear and bought an Asus zenWiFi AX6000 home mesh network set up that took only ten minutes to unpack setup and register (works flawlessly). I'll never use netgear again.
Netgear has been doing this for decades, had one of their ADSL modems in the mid 2000s that was v3 (you specifically wanted the v3 as it had a different controller), was labelled in the same way on the underside label but not the front.
Yeah they did release at least four versions of the DG 834 ADSL router and the v3 was a LOT better than the v1. Worked for an ISP back in 2004 and the headaches from trying to get customers to verify what model they had....
I’d generally say that if a change is fully backwards compatible with previous use cases, it isn’t a big deal if they don’t make it a new product. In this case, power budget per port is higher and overall power budget for the switch is higher so it should be fine. Only issue would be if somebody was looking at the v2 specs and bought one of the v1 switches second-hand somewhere.
I’ve used Netgear soho managed switch, like GS108E, bought from the same reseller for years. I’ve got rev.1, rev.2, and rev.3. All very different in term of capabilities, especially on how you access the mgmt. functions. In fact it seems to be pot luck which rev. you get. I get rev.3, and then a month later another order got me a rev.2, they are clearly stocked as if they are identical. I assume the revision is not made clear to allow resellers to handle inventory like this.
Interesting; I was about to buy the first one listed on Amazon. I then decided to check a review first and found this video. Looking closer on Amazon the V1 is the first listed at £47.49. The next must be a V2 although that isn't stated but the 63W and Poe+ is at £63.44. Then we have the another V2 at £39.59. You have just saved me ~£8 for a better product.
Woops I have just noticed 4 - 6 weeks delivery when added to the basket as it comes from the USA.
Patrick: Come let’s make a simple video.
Poe Switch: Hold my power
They’re not calling attention to it because there is still the original product version that’s out in the retail channels. So they don’t want all that inventory to stop selling.
I am a new subscriber and autistic, hence, really do like your attention to detail.
Those marketing guys at Netgear, need to up their game or is it the fact, why draw
attention to the V2; IMO it’s cheaper and they still have many of the older versions
to sell; that’s my reasoning. Looking forward to your new setup in August/September.
Hopefully, your faithful and new subscribers will understand it’s a win-win for all:)
I find it unacceptable because even when there are spec wins, sometimes those wins come with lower stability. I.e. not reengineering the mechanical or power side to properly deal with heat or add the additional tolerances. Though I understand the companies wishing to keep their product’s momentum, it often makes for more problems for the consumers or reviewers if it is not clearly a different product. (Even ignoring the obvious bait and switch tactics of some.) Putting “v2” on the front and carrying that consistent naming throughout the packaging would have been sufficient though.
I have noticed that both netgear and tp-link are particularly bad with this. On the wifi side of things sometimes rev numbers go as high as 7. And there's zero discernable difference. Not even when the spec difference in the case of one of the access points between revs was one had a 10/100mbit spec on their ports, and the next one had gigabit spec. With no clear labelling on the difference in ports at all. Despite being potentially 3 times faster with wireless workloads in that particular case.
As long as it is upgrade it is fine, it would be great to clearly mention it in review.
In my opinion, Netgear should have make a V2 as separate product model. Like calling it "GS305P+". To me there is a fine distinction between this and WD calling both CMR & SMR the same product name. While in both cases, they are bad for consumer, but in hind sight, a person who are using POE switch & sticking a RED drive in a NAS should at least have some knowledge, or at the least knowing where to look for solution to the problem that arise. The separation between the WD & Netgear cases are that, WD SMR RED drive can cause performance penalty in some use cases, the product can still function regardless of how the use will stick CMR or SMR drives in any host machine. Netgear is differ in the fact that a person may have order two units and expect them to work the same and then one works and other doesn't. Eg: a person order one and got the V2 version and stick it in the front of a warehouse/building for POE+ camera, then decide to get a second one to stick to the back of the warehouse/building for the same POE+ camera models, but this time he/she got received a v1 version. This is not like Canon have their dSLR camera name like 5D or 5D mark II, because that "mark II" is actually part of the model name, from the manufacturer to distributor/reseller to consumer, they all understand that this "mark II" that tag along at the end is also part of the product model and not a revision or the same product.
Thanks for the well-reasoned reply.
Linksys have done same thing (at least some years ago) for example with WRT54G routers.
I agree with you on the clarification of differences in the models. Yes Amazon should do something too about the naming scheme as well as Netgear. if someone like me was looking up that switch on Amazon or elsewhere it should be clearly noted and Identified. P.O.E. and P.O.E. + and P.O.E. ++ have different specs and only work with certain devices.
This is absolutely a problem, and it isn't just Netgear that does this. I just ordered a LInksys EA9500 router to replace one that went bad. I expected to receive the V2 version of the router, which has been made since 2017. Instead I received a V1.1. Turns out Linksys made both versions simultaneously, allowing unscrupulous vendors to buy v1.1 routers at reduced cost and sell them at V2 prices. It looks like a win, but it isn't. Why do manufacturers do things designed solely to help out unscrupulous online sellers?
Id like to see a video on the TP-Link Omada series switches (Specifically performance) I think these have the potential to be a good alternative to unifi for folks that might have a little tighter budget but want a SDN type of switch.
It's crazy how many versions of the GS305 there is. Next to the PoE version there is also the managed versions, unmanaged etc.
If the webshop/store makes the specs of the product clear and you don't get the lesser spec if you buy the higher spec one then it's okay. I don't really have a problem with this one. The webshop that I shop at used the v3 in the product header when I bought my gs105v3. So the webshop corrected netgear confusion. Netgear doesn't win any points with it's confusing naming but it isn't ripping you off like the others mentioned either. For me the product name really isn't that important, I'm mainly looking at the specs that I need the price and the brand (for reputation of quality).
Very good points.
I recently saw some posts complaining about long alphanumeric model designation for TVs and monitors, but I prefer that to not having a way to check specs from the model
Timely video, I need to buy one or two of this type of switch.
An upgrade is significantly better than a downgrade.
But I still think it should always be called out, simply because of the fact that old versions don't disappear from sales channels and now people might see the review for the new version and end up buying the old version.
Netgear has been doing stuff like this for years, so I'm not surprised. the fact that they actually changed the label on the bottom, and their support pages / website will actually make a mention of it, so I'm not anywhere near as bothered by it as the CMR -> SMR crap or the performance-affecting SSD changes. PoE+ is backwards compatible to PoE, so there's no real harm to a consumer here.
Long story short: There was a product refresh mid-cycle, and the team at STH bought the old version as there's no way to identify which one you get unless you a) know about the refresh, and b) look specifically for the 63W PoE+ version.
This is normal voor Netgear.
I had a breakdown of my Trusted 16 port unmanaged switch a few years ago. And when the replacement got to me, it was a v2 unit. The v1 had been running sinds the beginning of 2008.
Since it's overall same or better then the old version. So I'm fine with.
My issue is with lowerperforming crap, that replaces the "Reviewed" product on the same sku.
IMHO Netgear gets a pass.
I don't know how product registration testing and certification works, but I imagine this is the cheaper option for Netgear.
I can understand why they may not have wanted to update the model number being printed on the housing (this may require retooling part of an expensive assembly line and changing box details), but they already had to make a printing change to update the PoE power under the ports. Maybe the cheapest option was just update the PoE details under the ports and update 2 stickers (underside and box stickers). Personally, I think they should have put the V2 in the model number, since the product now has different specifications than before.
I ran into something similar many years ago with AlliedTelesis 4/5 port unmanaged switches.
One hardware revision would not pass 802.1X frames and another would.
Again, same model number like the Netgear in this video.
The one advantage I had, was the older hardware used physically different case and had still used physically separate straight/cross-over uplink port. (yes, that long ago...)
Hi Patrick, I think as you suggest, a revision number would be helpful while keeping the same model number.
You said it right. “Switching specs is not really cool.” It makes this kind of thing the norm which makes it harder to go after companies like western digital in class action suits.
I have different versions of the TP-Link TL-SG108E. But the differences aren't that big as far as I know.
There is only a very small label on the bottom that tells you which model it is. And you can still buy the older versions. (Though I think the v3 is blue while the v5 is black)
But they should be clearer which version you are buying.
It doesn't feel malicious because of the upgraded nature, but it's definitely confusing to end consumers. In the context of commercial laptops: I've gotten feedback from some admin friends that they appreciate consistency in naming from one product generation to the next, because it's simpler for them to handle purchasing and equipment management.
Maybe Netgear is basing their naming strategy on that feedback?
If the upgrade is cheaper than the old version it's not an upgrade... you just haven't discovered what they downgraded yet.
I say Netgear could do better here.
It's not as bad as a the whole SMR thing but it could be.
Imagen you need a POE+ so you read a review of the V2 then you head over to Amazon and get the same model number but end up with a V1. (amazon listings don't carry many specs anyway) While from a production point of view it's moved forward not backward so it's ok they don't control the supply chain so it's impossible to say how many people will end up short changed.
I work in a similar industry, I bet they hid the change to avoid costly regulatory red tape.
Patrick, vendors need to clearly label products so consumers don't get confused. Especially products where they do not sell direct. A consumer buying from a distributor should never wonder what they get. Considering information is often aggregated from the vendor site, reviewers, product for sale pages, spec sheets, and manuals, it's critical to clearly communicate what you are getting. It may seem harmless to upgrade the product "for free" until you realize someone may still buy the old product thinking it's exactly the same as the new product, then be disenfranchised like some of the other commenters.
My biggest similar issue was when same netgear changed R2 of a rotuer to be incompatible with open firmware, without any notification of an item being R2. That wasn't a huge win.
I suspect the issue here is that companies ship stock out and it sits in warehouses. They make feature improvements to the product line without changing the model numbers. They might do that for a number of reasons like inventory/warehousing, ERP system limitations, regulatory and industry labeling issues, and so on. Or they could be doing it with nefarious intentions to sell off old stock to customers that don't really care.
I can say that in the medical device industry, in most cases you need to have the ability to recall a product and so you must track a whole bunch of stuff throughout the product lifecycle. You also must register your product in multiple countries, which requires money, time, regulatory review, QA audits, testing, etc. The product is also tied to a manufacturer and changing it (in case of a buyout) is difficult. You have to do this for all new products. In many cases "revisions" are far less intensive. So I wouldn't be surprised if it's a similar case. Netgear sells all over the world and this stuff gets extremely costly and time consuming. If ultimately you aren't going to carry the "old" product revision anymore (PoE model) and the changes are minimal to turn it into a PoE+ model, then it probably makes a lot of sense for the company to treat it as a revision of the existing product.
Personally, I think the solution to this is to stop production of old revisions for X amount of time, recall any old revisions, and ship out the new revision. OR for vendors (like Amazon) to properly label the product. Amazon and many companies do a shit job of this all over the place though.
Any decent support setup would demand replacement gear have the same part number as the original.
Any company that can't be bothered updating the part number when specs change, should not be considered a reliable source of replacement parts.
I would certainly want them to label it and I am even leaning to the point that manufacturers should be mandated to do so. Partly because there is also the risk that customers can end up getting an inferior product to the one reviewed, despite the same markings. The fact that people got a better product here shouldn’t change this.
Imagine buying a batch of these, while not being aware, and then finding out your POE+ devices are failing on half of your switches only find out half of them were on the v1 switch, because your supplier couldn’t tell the difference. This would happen if you were aware of the new specs, but had forgotten about the old ones and your supplier had the older ones mixed in with the new ones.
Been a common issue with netgear switches that's been a bug bear of mine. Especially when you are wanting to keep firmware up to date and the hardware version is not in the gui so unless you recall or have a note of it, then need to crawl under desks or take off wall etc..to find the version on the actual hardware. pain in the .... imo. EDIT: firmware updates are hardware version specific.
I have the GS116Ev2 and i had this exact confusion because netgear doesnt label the front with the v2. Was upgrading the firmware on it and i was perplexed as to why it didnt like the download from netgear for the GS116E. derp
Tp-link does does this a lot on theirs routers. It's not just small pcb revisions, they change cpu's/add ram, etc on the same product.
On second thought, I would not mind if Netgear would release an upgrade of their 8 ports gigabit switch like the GS308 model with eight ports 10Gbe switch for the same $20 price under same name. I am sure that will sell better than hot cakes.
How much would if have cost to put a "+" after the P or a "v2" to make it easier for consumers?
It's likely that the boxes were already in production and changing the box production was costly. This is why hardware revisions are usually labeled on the sticker covering the original barcode. If you already have on order a half million boxes then revise the hardware after producing 200,000 units, you simply change the sticker labeling to save on cost.
I have different feelings on this. I think that consumers should know what they paying from the manufacturer. However, I would guess Netgear had a bunch of the housings but ran out the POE V1 controllers/power regulators. They most likely had a bunch of the POE+ controllers laying around and just transitioned to them. Changing the paint would cost money, so they just didn't change that on the front of the housing. It does appear that they did pass that saving on to the consumer! Changing the stickers most likely didn't cost anything extra and for compliance, so they did change those. So I guess I'm okay with it because they did pass on the savings to consumers and upgraded the unit.
In my opinion, for the label on the website, it's amzon's fault ( wrong image with wrong product )
A lot of product got the same stuff : product familly on the box and precise model on the sticker with the bar code.
It's the case for CPU for exemple and a lot of various technical stuff ( power supply , UPS , ... )
You just need to check the exact reference you need on the manufacturer website.
It is not always as simple as the higher spec'ed product is superior to the lower spec'ed product. Sometimes products have very subtle quirks that have nothing to do with what the specs have to say, and if you have tested a configuration with with a particular device, and then role it out with a device that looks the same but it very subtly different (even if it, at a superficial level, is simply the original with an extra capability), then all of out original testing is void.
Even in a more informal setting, without any formal testing, if you have a network that uses the V2 product, and the switch fails, so to look around and see you have what looks like an old spare of what looks like exactly the same product you have been using originally, but unbeknownst to you the spare is actually a V1 of the product, you can have fun trying to work out why replacing one switch with another one that looks the same fails to work, and if gives Netgear a reputation for poor quality control.
This is to take advantage of Amazon ratings. If they launched as a new product it would not be recommended until it sold for a while.
Good point
This is actually pretty common in budget consumer grade electronics. Samsung does this with some of their tablets and car manufacturers do something similar every time one of their models gets a facelift. I assume it is easier to just upgrade the specs of an existing line, then explaining every other customer why their product from 5 years ago is no longer avalable, "forcing them to upgrade, even though their old switch was working just fine a few days ago."
Though, buying the old version based on the review of the newer version hurts at least a little bit.
By not marking version it makes it easier to continue selling old stock at the same price! Ubquiti does the same thing! Especially when they switched from passive poe to normal Poe, so if you didn't pay close attention you could smoke your hardware
Yea, even call it a GS30_6_P or GS305P+.
Here's the thing. If the new model offered better specs, but they never posted them anywhere, that's a win. Everyone gets at least what they expected, and maybe something more. The problem here is someone buying one, and it meets their needs, so when they need to expand, they buy another one of the exact same model product, happen to get an old one, and it doesn't do what they need. Products sold with different specs promised need different model numbers that are clearly distinguishable by customers.
👍👍👍👍👍Thank You Patrick for Voicing it Out!
I WILL BE VERY VERY VERY MAD if I bought the PoE version when I actually wanted the PoE+ version. And sometimes tt is only a couple of bucks diff, or worst a couple of bucks more affordable. Especially after spending a great deal of time researching.
Many times I ditched a "better" product or manufecturer due to this type of stupidity. Yes, it is mind numbing to remember the diff btw 123xyz & 123xzy.
I bought the LG 27" 4K - LG 27UN880 UltraFine instead of the Acer Predator 273 series just b/c I am not sure if I bought the one that is best value for my money spent when I suspect tt even the sellers might be confused themselves, knowingly or otherwise.
So, since I am spending my money, DON'T Waste my time/dime on these idiotic vendors!!!!! Spend my time & money elsewhere.
Finally, got off my chest 😉!
Unfortunately this is not new for Netgear, and it's even more annoying with their routers and access points. I had a router back when the best I could get was ASDL, and it was a V1. Eventually they stopped releasing firmware updates for it, but it seemed like they were still making the router. A little more digging through their site revealed they'd released a V 2 and a V3, that were basically identical, but for some reason couldn't use the same firmware. Not a huge deal as I wound up upgrading to a newer router and eventually FIOS, and got a good 11 years out of it before it fried itself a few months back. That one had a couple of revisions as well over its lifetime that were not obviously labeled unless you looked up the full product number.
I hate when they do this and use the same Amazon listing. Nothing worse than reading the reviews, hearing the capabilities and limitations, then getting something different. I recently bought a TP-LINK 10G NIC and the reviews all said it had Linux drivers. Turns out this was only true for the V3 not the V4. Had to return it and get a new NIC.
Nah, Netgear aren’t getting a pass for this. They should make it more clear what you’re getting. For example, I’ve got two of their ReadyNAS 2100s and I recently discovered that there’s an upgrade to the firmware that can be applied. The first box upgraded perfectly, but the second one bricked, needing a lengthy amount of fiddling about to recover it. Turns out that the first one is a v2, which has a 64 bit CPU, and the other is a v1, which has a weaker 32 bit processor which won’t handle the newer firmware. The only way to know is to look at the label on the underside of the unit, which is hard to do when it’s in a rack. The screening on the front of both is identical, leading to my confusion.
I think it's not a huge problem, but I think giving it a new, obvious, model name would have been best. Worst case I can think of is someone thinking they're getting a v2 in their online order and getting an old stock v1 instead. Then they don't have the poe+ they potentially wanted.
Revisions are very common in networking routers & switches. Tplink, Netgear, Asus etc all do this and have done for atleast a decade. :)
Tp-link is kind of done the same thing the TL-SG105E and TL-SG108E have different revisions with different firmware, and the newest revision supports Omada where the earlier ones not so much