This setting is changing your bokeh: e-Front Curtain Shutter on Sony A7IV
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I finally decided to make A/B tests of e-Front Curtain Shutter settings on Sony A7IV and now I will have to change it on and off back and forth as it's affecting the bokeh in pretty significant way. Check the photos and judge for yourself, but I do recommend moving these settings to your favourites menu, so you can quickly change it when needed!
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I just tested this with an a7R III and the 50mm f/1.2 GM and was able to see it at 1/2000s. Since most of my lenses are very fast primes, I'll be turning eFCS off. Thank you for the video!
I find it depressing that after all these years of customer complaints about this issue, Sony still has not implemented an 'Auto Switch Off EFCS above 1/2000th SS'.
That would be awesome if they did.
@@Princeton_James Not really. What about if one likes to have it ON for above 1/2000th SS.
But what about for those who like to have it on for about 1/2000th SS?
@@babajaiy8246 make a switch with auto option on/off. There, solved.
it's even more depressing they sell thousands of A7C line cameras without most customers knowing these cameras only have EFCS. They upgrade from a6700s to get the full frame look, only to have worse bokeh. It's also barely ever mentioned by Sony reviewers when talking about these cameras, who obviously only want affiliate link money.
Just got an a74, this I didn't really know how e shutter affected the images but this clears things up, thank you!
Thanks for the video. I've been shooting with Sony since 2017 and discovered this when I bought the 50GM just recently. It's almost 2-3 stop difference looking at the bokeh.
Very interesting - I see my A7RIII also has this setting on by default and looking at my high shutter speed, wide aperture shots, I see this effect too! To be honest, I've never really noticed anything weird that grabbed my attention in my past photos until I had a look after your video. Thanks for the info!
GOOD MORNING MAGIC
Morning? What do you mean? :)
Magic Mike he means
Thanks a lot for the video. Really made things clear. I am just an enthusiast, so this is what i understood. Please correct me if I am wrong. If I am shooting with faster primes and with shutter speed of something like 1/4000 or under, I shouldn't really bother if this EFCS setting is turned on or off.
Another question is, I am planning to buy an A7cii which doesn't even have a proper mechanical shutter, would the EFCS be an issue with shutter speed of 1/4000 or under?
That is a pretty significant difference. Off obviously looks better. When using electronic (silent) shutter does it look more like EFC off or on? I like to use silent shutter as much as possible.
Full e-shutter will negate this issue, but you are throwing away about 1 stop dynamic range and added potential for rolling shutter in your shots
@@professionalpotato4764 very interesting. Does full mechanical vs electronic 1st curtain have any differences in dynamic range?
That's a matter of taste. For myself ON 'obviously' looks better.
Thanks Magic. I never knew this. I have shot Sony for years and have used EFC shutter whenever possible for lower noise, quicker reaction speed and for long shutter life but everytime I use my Godox triggers I have to turn EFC off or it will misfire every other frame.
I never noticed this bokeh change but will check as I use silent shutter on my A9 when outdoors without flash. I wonder if the quick read out of the A9, A9II or A1 makes a difference. Did you notice how the smoother bokeh was darker than the EFC bokeh? Its like EFC shutter exposes more.
With mirrorless and EFC off, the shutter closes before it opens to expose and quickly follows with 2nd curtain to control exposure, but with EFC on, it leaves the shutter open, starts to expose and only closes the 2nd curtain to control the exposure. So I guess thats where you get more light on the open sensor, and the changing in shape of the bokeh as its not all exposed the same.
Manny Ortiz mentioned this info a few years ago!..lol
The channel "Guy With Camera" explains it better. The cut bokeh is due to the mechanical shutter not being on the same plane as the sensor, hence casting a "shadow"
Why on earth would Sony not have the camera turn it ON/FF automatically when a going over a certain shutter speed??
that would be really cool!
That wouldn't be a good idea. Because you would lose creative control over the final result.
As for examples he gave, I actually liked the half circle bokeh he was getting better than the 'full' ones.
Imagery/Art is a subjective matter. There is no 'better' way than an another.
@@MagicWeddingPhotographer No! You loose creative control of the final image. :) - I liked those half-circle bokeh examples you gave better than full more blurry ones.
It's a matter of taste. There is no rule as to how bokeh should be done.
@@babajaiy8246 yeah but why not just... have it a setting? lol, perma on, perma off, auto switch at 1/2000 or faster?? lol your tastes are a minority, most people want it off
" yeah but why not just... have it a setting?"
Why you asking me that? That's not what the op said and I didn't comment on what you just suggested.
"lol your tastes are a minority, most people want it off"
That's only your opinion.
Fascinating. I wonder where/if shutter life span will be impacted.
Sony unfortunately doesn’t provide any information like that. And also they don’t provide any information about how many shutter counts A7IV can handle. But! When they do provide this information for other cameras, they do it for EFCS set to ON. So we could guess it’s gonna be less when you set it off.
@@MagicWeddingPhotographer much appreciated, that seems about right for sure. Thanks for the reply and the video. It was super interesting and informative.
Cheers
@@MagicWeddingPhotographer most Sony A7 Bodies are rated at 500K and yup it will be shorten if you set it off/silent mode on..lol
@@ldmndz4652 are you sure? I think the A9 is 500k and A7iii was around 200k, yup just checked via Google. Interesting that they would put those values out with EFCS on... Smells like misinformation... Good news is that their shutters seem to last well, so far at least with my A7R2, A73, A9, each with years of professional daily use. And I shoot a lot with Godox flash so forced to used full mechanic shutter without EFCS.
@@ldmndz4652 Whenever i hear of the shutter crapping out it is usually around 300k. Obviously it can happen at any time with any manufacture but Sony is a little more notorious for the shutter breaking.
Thank you. I agree this should be given more attention. Great video.
Great info I was not aware of. In my testing, I had to turn the shutter down to 1/4000 to not get the half-round bokeh.
It starts at 1/1600 technically. So best not to overshoot 1/2000
Fantastic video brother!!
Nikon knows this issue with EFCS and short exposition time. You can set every Nikon Z camera to automatically turn off EFCS, when shutterspeed is higher than 1/250 s. You can see bad bokeh due to EFCS pretty often in web and youtube content and even in reviews of high-end optics. That is something I dont understand to, because this EFCS limitation is well known.
If shooting in natural light and static subjects, is there any disadvantage to shooting silent shutter instead?
I have the same question.
@@Princeton_James Reduced dynamic range. All cameras lose dynamic range in E-shutter mode.
I did not notice that before your video. Thanks for your wonderful job as always, Magic 👍🏻👌🏻😁
Great video! I see that you have some pictures taken with the Zeiss Batis 40. What do you think of it?
I didn't like it to be honest... Was expecting more from this lens, but it was really boring
Thanks for the video Magic.
I shoot with the fully Mechnical Shutter (aka Off in the settings) because I love the double-click sound of the shutter 🤣satisfying af
As a pro photog I absolutely hate double click. Hate that damn lag!!!
Great explanation on this topic, thanks
Yes! Thank you for this. :) Will be using for portraits.
I really want to know how it's caused, I cannot picture how the e front curtain causes the bokeh to be cut off
thank you-really good to know!
My pleasure!
I leave mine on. I'm worried about mechanical shutter fail on my A7III.
O_O omg thank you ! I had one session where the bokeh was super strange on my 50 at f/1.2 and I was wondering if its a problem or something.... Sony don't you touch my bokeh ! XD
PROTECT THE BOKEH AT ALL COST!
Is this really only affect when shooting at 1/8000 or also on 1/4000 and if yes, when does it stop? Planning on purchasing the a7IV tomorrow :D
it looks like 1/5000 is when it starts, so you should be fine with 1/4000 :)
It starts at 1/1600 and gets noticeable at 1/2000.
@@MagicWeddingPhotographerdoes that affect smaller aperture?
1/2000 to start to see
YOOOOOOOOOO the E Shutter maaaan.
I never noticed it ahhaha
But is it applicable when I use High speed Sync in Flash photography please reply ASAP @Magic Wedding Photographer
I haven’t found any information about that and have not experienced any issue, but this needs to be further tested!
If possible please test it extensively in high speed sync mode & please upload it for us & I'm a Sony A7M3 user currently.. @@MagicWeddingPhotographer
I use the mode dial to turn the efcs on and off. I wish sony has an easier way to toggle this
I save the setting to my menu as easy to change as soon as I see my shutter speed gets above about 1/1000.
@@GaryBoxThanks Gary I just did the same on my camera. Great tip 👍 I also set my menu to open on my custom menu by default so hitting the menu button leads me straight to the EFCS toggle.
how about silent mode does that change the bokeh like efcs on?
No but you lose about 1 stop dynamic range. Go see "Guy With Camera" explanation on why efcs cuts bokeh
Is this different for apsc cameras?
great info.
🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
@@MagicWeddingPhotographer I also believe the E front curtain shutter has a lot to do with off camera Flash is that correct?
@@ronlemelinphotography there is no information about that in the manual (there is info about bokeh being cut in half), and I personally haven’t experienced this. But will do further tests with flash
What about using the fully electronic shutter ? Does it look like the efcs on or off?
Off
@@rikutalvio Another advantage of E shutter. I really like E shutter. It just can't be used with flash. I also use it very little in indoor lighting.
@@Princeton_James Flash and other artificial light can be used, but to stay free of banding, the exposure time needs to be longer than the sensor readout speed. The A7IV has a slow sensor just like its predecessors; IIRC it's something like 1/15 or 1/10. Of course that's too slow for many things. The only cure for that is the A1 with its 1/200 sync speed in electronic. 🙃
I almost bought your presets to try them out but they are double in cost what I would ever pay for a preset :(
the latest a7cii and a7cr still dont have full mechanical shutter damn it!🤬
i hear sony told we should turn off To reduce the occurrence of shutter errors
out of curiosity, would leaving it on more often than off lengthen the life of the shutter?
Yes. The a7iv has shutter issues and sony released an update that turns this on by default to save the shutter.
@@alexklein455 I thought it is always on by default. Do you mean if finally switches from on to off at a certain shutter speed (Off over 1/2000)?
What LEGO set is that in the background?
Finally some serious questions!! It's 71741 Ninjago Gardens. It's pretty dope!
Hey I have the sony a6000 and 2.8 lens what should I use?
A new camera.
@@Princeton_James thanks for this very useful and mature advice
@@Princeton_James Full mechanical. I have never in my life shot e shutter or efcs and never will. Why degrade image quality? Shutters these days have lifespan of at least 300k. (500k on pro bodies)
Is this affects sony a1?
This effect happens as long as you open the electronic front curtain shutter
It looks like 1/2000 is when it starts, so you should be fine with 1/2000 or 1/1000.
Technically 1/1600 but it gets noticeable around 1/2000. On Fuji cameras they warn you that shooting >= 1/1600 it degrades the image. Weird that Sony doesn't warn people
Wow, almost negates all the positives of the a7cr... since I shoot wide open a lot of the time, that camera is now dead to me... thanks for the great video.
Its not the cameras fault. Its an inherent property of electronic 1st curtain. Use mechanical shutter or ND.
@@aleksinuutila2315 the camera has no 1st curtain mechanical shutter, that’s the point, all bokeh is ruined
@@t-money561 Does it have fully electronic shutter? Or does it do the same bullshit that canon R6 does, having 12 bit colors when using e-shutter and 14 bit when using mechanival or e-1st-curtain?
Its not the end of the world.
And nlt noticiable most of the time.
A7cr does 1/4000 max.
So already the effect will be less and at 1/1600 and slower it doesnt change.
@@t-money561
I like bokeh when its On. When its Off - its look like an iPhone photo
ehhhh, a7c can’t turn this off, am I f*cked?
edit: holy shit I shot with this for the last 8 years
at slower shutter speeds having this 'off', the vibration causes blurred images. Be warned.
Only at a specific shutter speed. That's physically impossible to correct if the shutter speed resonates with natural frequency of body. Just shoot 1/3 stop faster/slower. Done.
@@professionalpotato4764 This was landscape, on a tripod, shooting over 100mm in low light. The front curtain shakes the whole unit and leaves a blurry image. It' can't be corrected unless you ramp up the shutter speed to about 1/250th, which is impossible in some situations
@@BritishRosie-es3zr At all speeds below 1/250? That sounds extreme... Could it be a weak tripod head that was tilting with a long lens? Or maybe IBIS kicking in when it shouldn't causing issues? I know Sony cameras have artillery firing mechanisms for the shutters esp on older bodies. Extremely heavy and loud (like the a7iii) but the a7iv seems to have been improved quite a bit. Strange... anyone else had similar issues on reddit/forums?
@@professionalpotato4764 It's an A6400. I have done extensive tests and the issue only occurs under full mechanical shutter mode - silent shooting or e-front curtain are both fine (although silent shooting reduces dynamic range noticeably). It's definitely the shutter causing the vibration (a design flaw I would suggest). I'm shooting now with e-front curtain on all the time unless I notice the bokeh being messed up at shallow DOF, but I mainly shoot f/11 landscapes so not really an issue. I think my next camera will be something other than Sony unless they produce something amazing
@@BritishRosie-es3zr I see. Yeah the a6400 was still using the older mechanism I suppose. I recently tested the a7iv in stores and the shutter has been hugely improved in terms of shutter shock. The a1 is even better. Ultra dampened, even softer than the Fujifilm shutters which are usually very quiet and gentle.
I actually prefer the look when it's on
Nive video, but that's no news...
yep, it's been there for years. There is loads of new Sony users though, so hopefully they will find this helpful!
I shoot with the mechanical shutter 90% of the time...
But this setting is separate from shooting mechanical/electronic- check under shutter -> e-front curtain shutter if it’s on or off
So do you shoot with EFC on or off?
Off-on off-on? Why not side by side comparison? Thumbed down, sorry mate
It seems better to me with "Off-on off-on" ... Thumb up.
Thumped down your comment, sorry mate.
Oh, come on... two things MUST occur simultaneously for EFCS to affect bokeh discernibly.
(1) You Aperture Must be VERY BIG. (2) Your Shutter Speed must be VERY FAST.
It is barely discernible starting F1.4 @ 1/2000s, F2 @ 1/3000s, F2.8 @ 1/4000s and F4 @ 1/6000s.
Using ISO50 you won't have any issue shooting in open shade even in the mid-day sun.
I Always prefer it On! I like it with more structure!