MASSIVELY Upgrade Your ENDURANCE for CrossFit | EP. 135
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มิ.ย. 2024
- Become a TTT Athlete: www.trainingthinktank.com/
On this episode of the Corpus Animus Podcast, TTT Coaches Brannen Dorman and Kyle Ruth explore why your endurance might be lacking and what to do about it.
Peep the time stamps below, and leave us a comment with any questions you have for a future episode.
00:00 - Intro
01:34 - Are you enduring?
02:45 - How are we defining endurance?
05:35 - What percentage of athletes are cardiovascularly limited vs. local muscular endurance limited?
07:07 - Should endurance be the first weakness you address?
10:10 - How to identify your endurance limitation
16:33 - Using CrossFit Open workout 19.1 to find your limitation
18:51 - How does execution or “going out hot” affect endurance?
25:10 - How Kyle Ruth addressed his cardiovascular endurance limitation
29:30 - Feeling like you're not doing enough
30:00 - Zone 2 work
44:36 - Is there a recommended mode for doing Zone 2 work?
47:08 - How Brannen Dorman addressed his muscular endurance limitations
58:54 - At the highest level of CrossFit what are the most common endurance limitations?
59:44 - If adding Zone 2 work into training, should you take something else out?
01:03:17 - Why is staying in Zone 2 hard?
01:07:55 - What is the order of operations for getting better at CrossFit?
As you listen please throw any questions you have down here in the comments, and we'll do a follow-up episode answering as many as we can!
Can you talk about like cardio and strength standards to not be games athletes but decent top gym athletes. How do you know if i.e clean is this xxx so I can move on and work on something else. My row times are xxx now work on echo bike time of xxx, basically when do you know that you have a weakness or a strength, to know to stop working so hard on one and work on a different thing. Hope that makes sense 😂
Do you guys think a chest strap heart monitor is better than just a wrist heart monitor?
Amazing episode! I’ve been wanting someone to talk about this and give examples for so long.
I’m definitely on the side of needing more stamina, can you guys give examples improving lower body stamina, my legs blow up the bike erg a lot 🔥
Thank you for this podcast. IMHO, you didn't talk about breathing a lot: mouth Vs. nose, breathing loudly/rhythmically so that you know you're in control...
Would a rule of thumb like "if I can chat back and forth I'm in Zone 2" work (So that you don't have to look at charts, devices and what not while exercising)?
43:21 Maybe choose the modality you're usually not comfortable transitioning from?
Would you say that Competition/Games Programming in the Boz era is more "JT" than "Helen" 😉?
Thank you!
@@Gaiartemis I can answer this, the answer is 100%, yes. Way more accurate
Single handedly the most informative and best podcast I think y’all’ve done.
Thanks!
Good stuff men. I’ve been avoiding Zone 2 for 25 years and now I’m paying for it.
Not necessarily a question, but I loved hearing about the beginning of progressions. I know you work with higher level athletes, but as someone overweight and new-ish to exercising, it was nice to hear that it's okay to start with just walking or 30s jog and 30s walk.
Chris keep asking those rudimentary questions!! (Idk what idk, so I can't contribute much. But I appreciated the answers you received!)
😢
I listened to the end! I am always blown away how knowledgable and informative your podcasts are!! Great job, thanks for the info!
Thanks!
@@kyleruth5145 Do you guys think a chest strap heart monitor is better than just a wrist heart monitor?
Yes, without ANY question
Chest strap is far superior, it measures electrical activity of heart vs wrist which uses lasers to measure blood flow.
@@kyleruth5145 Thanks!
TTT team and these Coaches + Faceless dude behind Monitor = God send 🙏
This podcast just saved my Spartan Trifecta 2023 season.
I’ve been doing high intensity intervals, lots of weight squats/lunges, and sprints for years and kept getting killed on those uphills.
The things you have done so far are great! Now I'd suggest adding in some of the longer, slower, efforts we discuss to make your fitness much more well rounded!
Very informative episode! With this years Open I loved the levels where I saw I went from a 4 to 5. When I looked at the individual workouts, I saw that I dominated at strength 82% for max thruster, but the shuttle shuffle was my worst at 53%. I actually had already done Open 19.1 preparing for this years Open back in January, I improved, but my heart rate was definitely jacked. Great discussion. Looks like I've got some level 2 training in my future along with continued skills practice.
You guys are talking directly to me smh. Muscle endurance is KILLING ME!
Chill
This is a good time to work on that! Build your endurance now so you can express your capacity later.
Dude same
Hey TTT. Thanks for always having great content. And for this one in particular, giving me permission to shift the gear and SLOW DOWN. Sometimes it feels like we put all this pressure on figuring it all out quickly, but I felt relieved to hear that sometimes the key to getting better is pulling back.
Anywhoot, of course this morning I had to go start the running intervals. Around minute 7 I decided I wanted to see if I could regulate my heart rate better if I just used nasal breathing vs the run walk. AMAZING. When I felt like I was water boarding myself, the options were 1- get air in my lungs, 2- slow my cadence down, 3- open my mouth.
I took opening the mouth off the table. I made it an additional 30 min between 135 and 145, without having to walk. The highest heart rate came with inclines in the road. Really excited to play with this for the next few months. (Disclaimer, I’m one of those big and strong folk who suffocate very quickly)
My cadence cheat code is to pick a music playlist that is very calm. When my jam comes on, I just can’t help but run fast.
Keep being awesome. Thanks for inspiring.
Hands down one of the best informational/educational podcasts you guys have done. This is me to a T!
Absolutely adored this episode and yes I like ones like this!
Great video guys! I'm a quarterfinals athlete from Colorado love your videos! Thank you so much for the knowledge!
Really enjoyed this discussion. I did lots of Zone 2 running with a similar idea to Kyle, however I was trying to run the whole time, and I felt like I had to run so slow to staying in zone 2, and still had to walk lots. I just tried Kyle's approach of setting run/walk intervals and found it way more enjoyable. Sure its a lot of walking, but my pace when running was much faster and enjoyable. Stayed in Zone 2, and my average pace for the whole run still ended up being faster than when I was trying to run the whole time in zone 2. I had seen this run/walk method preached before but it was tied to pace rather than HR. Doing it based on HR makes a lot of sense to me.
This was the key for me - prior to starting with run-walk work like this it just felt like a waste of time to run THAT SLOW in order to stay in zone-2. Shifting to the interval structure made a world of difference for me.
@@kyleruth5145so is this just a matter of preference or is the interval approach superior to just running slow?
I don’t mind the running slow because I do it outside. On days when it’s hot or I choose to do bridges (we don’t have “hills” in FL) I have to go really slow or sometimes start walking, but again I don’t mind it.
@@5bbqpringles I don't think the interval approach is necessarily better, like you said it's more a matter of preference. Also, I've found a lot of people don't have the base level of fitness required to be able to run for extended periods of time while staying in zone-2, so shifting to intervals allows them to get the volume they need in order to make adaptations.
Can you do an episode like this for strength? “Massively upgrade your Strength for CrossFit”.
This please
This was really great- thank you!
Someone get Evan back here to talk Z2 science!
We will see what we can do ;)
Confirmed, will have him on when he’s back in GA this winter
Can’t wait for that episode… even though us mere mortals can barely understand his big brain
Alright Peter attia
Evan had some of my favorite podcasts. Brilliant mind
That was very informative. Thank you!
🤘
Where have you guys been for the last 11yrs. You nailed it. My life exactly. I never got any better. Thanks for this info. After 11yrs in now doing zone 2 2hours a week to help. Thanks again.
Great episode!
This was great! I'd love to hear more examples of muscular endurance building work. like the 4 rds of bench, strict press and max holds you used for HSPU... but for other high skill movements as well....RMU, BMU, TTB, etc..
Since you guys have discussed HYROX a bit recently I would like to hear how TTT would approach the end of the race which is mainly muscle endurance. The race ends with:
100 meter Walking Lunge (66/44 lbs)
1000 meter Run
100 Wall Balls
What kind of protocols might be helpful to finish the race out strong? Or, really any thoughts about training for HYROX would be great.
I am a beginner in CF with no intention of going professional, yet this podcast was very informative. I plan on using some these tips for some training outside the box. This was a great episode.
Loved the episode! I actually enjoy when you go off the rails and pick each others brains, always brings out great questions and ideas. Helps us as coaches think more critically about our own ideas too.
One question I thought about was how you distinguish between local ”stamina” and endurance in more complex scenarios; like your example when someone feels their legs blow up during hill runs, is the problem local leg stamina (and all that goes into that) or is it a delivery limitation where the heart can’t/isn’t strong enough to pump blood to the legs under that occlusion? Maybe a bit of both? Just something I often end up reflecting on around limiters.
Thanks guys!
This is something we will definitely address on a follow up podcast. The real answer is likely - a little bit of both. But both Brannen and I tend to view training from a performance perspective rather than a physiological systems perspective since in the end we are trying to get the athlete to the top of the hill as fast as possible!
the questions were posed but I'm not sure if they were explicitly answered, so I'll ask them again:
1) Which is harder to develop, cardio endurance (can't breathe) or muscular stamina (blown up)?
2) How do you actually develop muscular stamina? Zone 2 i would assume is mostly aimed at cardio endurance. A takeaway example I believe applied was accumulating a large quantity of pushups in individual max sets with a 1min easy spin between sets
1. One is not harder than the other. Building cardio endurance is harder for ME to build, but stamina is harder for Brannen to build. A lot of it is based on genetic predisposition and training history.
2. We went into more depth on this in the follow up podcast that was just released. An order of operations for building stamina would be: 1. Ensure base qualities of strength and cardio endurance are developed… without these you’re going upstream without a paddle. Then focus on the SPECIFIC patterns you want to improve (ie pulling or pressing) and build volume AND density in those patterns using progressive overload.
Very interesting conversation. I was a collegiate soccer player turned powerlifted so I am an interesting case study ha Every workout I have the suffocating feeling so I have been doing 20-40 min cardio pieces running, biking, and rowing which has helped a lot. Recently I have started to experience local muscle fatigue in shoulders and legs so good to know the (maybe) cardio is working. Love listening to topics like this!
Sounds like it's working!
That was great, thank you. What’s the best way to incorporate zone 2 and strenght as an extra to an already existing classes.
It would be interesting to see what the TTT coaches would come up with to test "endurance" in the CrossFit space say using 4 particular Open Workouts and depending what you average maybe you know where you stand? If that makes any sense.
I think this year they did a pretty good job with the shuttle + burpee pull-up test INTO the max thruster. I think that’s was well planned out. Brannen and I will give some thought to this for the next podcast.
Great episode! Could you have an episode about warm up?
Could you give more details on zone 2 ski to improve strict handstand push-ups? What are the time periods on/off. What would be the equivalent of walking on a ski erg?
I’ve used a really simple structure of 2x 30min ski @ zone 2
No progression, just ran it for MONTHS. My thought process was that we would use the zone-2 ski to build some capillary and mitochondrial density - essentially making their triceps / shoulders a little better at dealing with fatigue / metabolite build up from dense HSPU
Sessions would be:
Hspu specific training
…
Directly into 30min zone-2 ski
Worked pretty well!
Love it!
Yes to the Nausicaa fan!!
ayeeeeeeee! going to see Kiki this Sunday on the big screen!
26:52 THIS IS ME!!! Been doing CrossFit for 3 years now (2 on & off 6 months consistently) & I’m a former collegiate football athlete & THIS IS PERFECTLY EXPLAINED. I could do the movements or longer runs but it’s just my breathing. It’s always around the 10-13 min mark where i get the “oh shit I’m dying” thoughts lol
Get to work on some zone-2!
There are some other things you can do to help with your breathing….we will cover those in future episodes as well
@@kyleruth5145 Definitely will! Zone-2 was something i always skipped & just did GOWOD on recovery/zone-2 days! Greatly appreciate this video & will tune in for the next ones!
Kitty pack club is an amazing idea!
I weighed Rick later that day and he was only 14#, I was hoping his lil chunky ass was the full 35# 🤣
But honestly, isn’t this dangerous for the kitty? 😂
First time I did 19.1, I got 276. Most recently I got 358. That’s a really good test of mental and physical fortitude cause you don’t wanna pick up that wall ball and you can always do another one.
Hello,
I am athlete that is more proficient in strength and pretty average in endurance. I have been doing Crossfit for 10 yrs. From your informative podcast I find that I am more struggling with my stamina as I do get out of breath but typically I break and slow down due to the muscle fatigue and "Blowing up". I have good lifts and I know I have the strength but I can't seem to improve my stamina. For example, I am terrible with front squats or hang squat clean in workouts. I will definitely work on my skill work and warm ups to ensure I am doing everything properly but would you also suggest the zone 2 for stamina as well? I apologize if you mentioned in the episode, it was a big info dump!
We just did a 20 min max distance row this week. I was able to hit 5140 meters with an alternating stroke rate of 15-17 for 30 secs and a 20-25 strokes per minutes. I like to think when I am at the lower stroke rates its like a heavy deadlift pull and the higher rate its more like an air squat. Alternating helps me maintain more of a mental focus. If I was to report I would say at the lower rate harder pull is out breath and the higher rate is muscle fatigue
This is normal and one of the reasons "endurance" is a complicated topic. You can feel different limitations within different tests OR even within the same test based on stroke rate, for example. You will still have one limitation that is greater than the other (few people are well-rounded), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't always strive to continue to improve both your cardiovascular and local endurance throughout the year.
@@brannendorman6772 you guys are awesome! love the well thought out content!
Great material/topic guys
How does "endurance' training change for older athletes? (ie, 55+)
Interestingly -- endurance is one of the few training qualities that really can continue to improve for a LONG time. If you look there are a number of athletes in longer endurance sports who are in their 40's -- where the same is just not true in strength / power sports. With that said, I personally think that things like low-intensity endurance training are even more important for people as they age, and the research on this topic tends to support that. So I would say "endurance" for older athletes doesn't really look THAT much different than it does for younger populations.
It would be cool if TTT had like a testing week/2 week block that you do, and based on the results it would place you into a certain track with like certain add ons. Like Rx w/endurance track or strength bias w/“X”
This is such a great episode! Thanks Guys.
I would like to know what you would define as zone 2? (% of Max HR) Just let my app tell me what zone 2 is?
If running, can your heart rate be higher than on other machines? Does elevation play a role in your heart rate? I live at 4700 feet above see level.
zone-2 is typically 60-70% of your HR max. Your max HR is going to be different for each modality / erg based on your experience level -- so yes the zone will be different for running than it is for say a C2 bike. Part of this is due to the amount of muscle-mass recruited for each -- running uses A TON of muscle mass from the legs to postural stabilizers, etc --- where biking really only recruits the legs / glutes and requires much less postural stability due to the fact that you're sitting. SO we would expect HR to be closer to your true physiological max running than biking.
At what point do you consider a workout about endurance? Looking at the 3 metabolic pathways anything over 2-3 min is oxidative. Is there a threshold you think of a workout as endurance? 10, 15, 20 min? Or is it anything over 3 min?
I’ve spent a lot of time trying to define endurance for the TTT courses over the years, and I think the best definition that I’ve arrived at is that endurance is RELATIVE to the individual’s goals.
As an example, imagine someone who is getting prepped for their first 5k - for them “finishing the 5k” is endurance. Contrast that to someone pushing to win an Olympic gold in the track 5k… to them endurance is the ability to maintain at or near world record pace for 5000m. Both people need to develop their endurance, but the specifics of their endurance (and the contributions from each energy system) are relative.
So using my example from the podcast, I needed to get better at EVERY EVENT LONGER THAN 10min. So building endurance for me centered around developing that time domain.
However when I was a competitive swimmer who specialized in 50-100 freestyle / butterfly, “endurance” to me was 45-50sec time domain - and the ability to maintain speed over that duration.
Hope this clarifies my point, and this is definitely something we will explore in a follow up podcast.
What does maintenance look like after completing a cycle? Do the adaptations just remain, or do you need to keep up with some sort of protocol - assuming you’re still doing CF training/classes?
What kind of training pieces would you recommend adding, to improve endurance/fitness/general crossfit capacity, that have the lowest fatigue cost? Therefore can be added into an already packed training week recovery wise.
Thoughts on the part of the endurance equation related to movement efficiency? Not so much technique based, but the physiological ability to perform the movements while requiring less oxygen/energy. For higher end athletes, are they really going to improve their cardiac output/delivery or is time better spent intelligently building sport specific volume? How would you track and differentiate the endurance progress an athlete is making to see what protocols are actually creating the adaptions?
I think in this sport there are a number of athletes who have been able to compete at a high level, even into the games with really poor cardiac output. They basically do what Brannen said that he does in the middle of this podcast where he maximizes movement efficiency and workout strategy which allows him (and them) to compete at a fairy high level. The problem is that this strategy comes with a performance ceiling, and if they really want to get to the next level, whatever that may be, they’re going to have to build a more robust physiology.
@@kyleruth5145 Agreed! I think the heart rate zones, while the easiest to track, can sometimes lead delivery limited athletes still going too hard. Not everyone has a NIRS, but there is that feeling of muscle tension/fatigue that you can start to identify when your at a negative rate of oxygen exchange. As you mentioned small sets with rest, but I’ve also found rotating between various machines continuously can also help. It will allow my heart rate to climb higher without my muscle extraction rate increasing.
@@matthewlink131 I think a lot of the advantage of staying on a SINGLE erg (or modality) for longer periods is that you can build the underlying "machinery" that supports delivery / extraction so that you're able to maintain higher HR's without feeling that muscular limitation. At least, that's been my own experience.
What does testing look like for you guys when you bring on a new athlete and how do you determine if they are a beginner, intermediate, or advanced?
Is there a benefit to doing intervals at a faster pace vs sustained running at a slower pace?
Can the TTT community do the ruck club/challenge with you all? That would be fun!
Heck yea! We will come up with a plan.
In reference to the strength losses from Zone 2 running, is there a way to have your cake and eat it too? Meaning make cardio/aerobic/respiratory gainz while at least maintaining strength, if not pushing strength up. If so, how?
If not, how would you go about determining what sacrifice is 'worth it' to make gains in any one direction on the spectrum? I assume it would have to do with how you rank relative to the field in each category....
Loved the episode, my issue is that basically I soffocate and take long breaks between exercises. (Staring at the equipment) What should I do? Force me to grab the bar, dumbell, ball, etc?
This is where I was for years and no amount of forcing myself back onto the bar (or ball, or GHD, or whatever) would improve the feeling of suffocating. That’s why I went back to the drawing board and started building a “real” aerobic base.
However the best thing to do is to follow the “order of operations” we set out in the podcast:
(1) improve your efficiency with the bar (or ball, GHD, db, etc),
(2) since you already know you’re likely more cardiovascular limited…get started with zone-2 work choosing an erg or modality based on what you feel you need to develop the most. As I said in the podcast, I chose running for a couple of reasons… I’m heavier than most of my competitors, I was always a decent rower, and running made me feel like I was suffocating, so it was the obvious choice!
Best time to start was 10 years ago…second best is today.
I have a question regarding Zone 2 ! I was under the impression that each Zone 2 session had to be in a specific range of time for it to be really effective. So if your goal is to get at least 2 hours per week, you would do 2 x 1hour instead of bouts of 10-15 minutes here and there. From your perspective and regarding science, is there a difference ? Thank you ! And I enjoy your content very much !
Great question, we will address.
Is there a sweet spot for how much zone 2 to do where you will still build a good base of endurance but it wouldn’t negatively impact your ability to build or maintain strength. Also does the amount of zone 2 you need change when you get your endurance to where you are happy with it and just want to maintain?
Great questions - we will address in follow up podcast.
If you know endurance needs work and you want to include 2 to 3 zone 2 sessions on a runner per week, how would you layer those into your current training? I am following TTT master track. Would I do these on rest days or would it be better to include with my daily sessions? If on the daily sessions, should I do at the beginning or end of a session? Worried that if I do at the end it would be exceedingly difficult to keep my heart rate in zone 2. Thanks!
My advice would be to add it in whenever works best for you, whether or not a rest day or on top of your daily work. If on the same day, I'd do it afterwards. But tbh, you're going to get benefit no matter when, just as long as you do it consistently
This answer is the correct one! The great thing about zone-2 training is that it really can be done whenever, and doesn’t really require a lot of prep / warm-up (in fact you can USE it as warm up and an extended cool-down).
What I found was that if I did it first thing in the morning, it affected my afternoon training, but I was willing to accept that. If I did it AFTER training then my pace @ zone-2 was a lot slower…so there was a trade off … but in the end, your heart doesn’t really care when you do it…just that you do!!
I watch soooo many CF videos. This has been the most informative and encouraging - it covers so many levels of fitness. It’s great to hear where to start and how it can help in wods, even for less fit folks like myself. Thank you so much for this!
You mentioned that doing zone 2 running (cardio vascular building) will ruin strength gains. What about targeting muscle endurance? Is it possible to address that limiter in conjunction with strength?
It should absolutely be possible to progress both muscular endurance and strength together UNLESS you are near your strength ceiling. Using a polarized approach is a good way to accomplish this - heavy work followed by muscular endurance work.
In your experience, how accurate is the WHOOP for Zone 2 work on the Ergs ?
Thanks for the great content !
I mentioned this in the podcast -- its not haha. I've actually run an experiment where I wore 3 different monitors: whoop / garmin watch / polar chest strap -- both whoop and garmin would have random spikes and valleys that were completely disconnected from my effort / pacing / RPE... the chest strap was extremely consistent and jived well with those subjective metrics.
Tell me more about this ruck group. Is this an actual thing? Where do you join? I'm all in!
I have a question which covers a whole topic I guess. After a hard crossfit session I have problems to sleep well. Usually the session is finished 7.15 pm and I start to sleep at 10.30 pm until 5.45 pm. Is there anything to do before I go to sleep to reduce the stress level which occured due to the sports and increase the sleep quality. Or is it also a general endurance problem I am facing?
how would Aerobic work on machines for long periods of time 2-3 times a week transfer over to working out in 10-15 min AMRAPs that have complex movements?
This is the concept of building an endurance base. The adaptations that happen from low intensity erg / running increase the ceiling for performance in high intensity workouts at shorter time domains.
Without getting too deep into the physiology… it allows you to build mitochondrial and capillary density in the working muscles and trains the heart to fill with more blood - all of which support performance at higher intensities.
32:12 how did you guys determine your heart rate zones? Everything I find online puts zone 2 significantly higher, like 142-155 bpm for me, and my max hr is about 192. Btw I’m a big fan of you guys and love the more educational episodes.
Aim for 60% to 70% of your max heart rate for zone 2
Great content! However, near the end you basically said to pick one. Strength or Endurance....what about those of us who need both...badly?
Not exactly - I said zone-2 RUNNING is the worst thing you can do if you need to get stronger… zone-2 bike / ski / row are all going to have a smaller negative impact on strength (or none at all)
Just to understand, zone 2 work on any machine, including the run, will help with overall endurance (not to include muscle endurance)?
there's a little bit of "it depends" that has to be thrown out here. I mentioned this in the video and this is CRITICALLY important to understand when using endurance training as "cross-training" for CrossFit -- the local muscular endurance adaptation you make during zone-2 training are SPECIFIC to the erg you are on while the cardiovascular adaptation that you make are non-specific (meaning they carry over to ANY movement / modality).
This is why I mentioned it being important to choose your erg wisely -- in my case I knew I needed to get better at bodyweight based movements like bounding and jumping so that was the logical choice. The muscular endurance that I built in my legs and calves had some (limited) carry over to the sport-specific movements I wanted to improve.
If you struggle more with upper-body endurance, it might make more sense to focus on using a ski-erg rather than running or biking.
Is this something that will be incorporated into the next TTT Compete cycle? Also when does the next cycle video drop?
There are always endurance options in our Elite path! We also have 5 endurance training days in TTT Fitness. For those who purchase the "COMPLETE" membership, they will have access to all of it.
We will drop the next cycle video June 19th!
What is the best way to find an accurate conversion for heart rate zones (specifically zone 2) when you tested on a run but you are using a bike or rower or stair stepper for zone 2 training. For example, my zone 2 per a running V02 test is 150-159 but when I try to maintain that on a c2 bike or stair stepper I am definitely above zone 2
We VERY briefly touched on this in the video -- but limitations (and therefore max HR) is going to be different on every erg (and during each modality). SO what you would have to do is establish a max HR on each erg you plan to use for your zone-2 training. Brannen and I can talk about what a max-HR test might look like and how you can figure that out.
Thanks coach 🫡
What exercises or strategies can be used to enhance muscular endurance in the legs and lower body? Would high-repetition lunges and squats within a defined range and add weekly? Rest periods? Super sets?
We will discuss on the next podcast! Also, if you are in our online program, TTT Compete, you will see plenty of examples on exactly how to program and implement squat endurance strategies.
Yes to all of the above. Depending on what level you're starting at, performing super sets of "compounding fatigue" movements like squats, lunges, step-ups can be a great way to build local muscular endurance.
I've gravitated toward doing my muscular endurance work with either a wtd vest (higher repetitions 20+ per set) or 50# DB's (moderate repetitions ~15-20 / set) and keeping the rest breaks pretty short.
An example might be:
20 DBL DB Front Squats @ 50#
20 DBL DB Farmers Grip Walking Lunge @ 50#
20cals C2 bike, standing @ damper-10
rest = work b/t sets
x3 sets
this is a fairly advanced RX here... but should illustrate the point that each movement pre-fatigues the next.
Thoughts on mixing modalities, for example running 2 days/wk and skiing 1 day/wk, versus sticking with only one modality?
Yes, I wasn’t super clear on this in the episode but I did 3x run, 2x bike (45-60min) each week during this progression.
I tried the zone 2 run: 30 second run, 1 minute walk. My average HR stayed zone 2 (150 BPM) but it had the feel of a HIIT workout. Is that normal or should I adjust my paces? I was running at my PR 800m pace and just walking normal. Thanks for the video!
HR was likely outside of zone-2 range, unless your HR just runs REALLY high. You'd need to back off closer to the 130ish range depending on age / max HR ... which would obviously slow this down and change the feel.
ALSO -- I recommend keeping the run portion longer than the walk portion if possible....which would ALSO necessitate slowing paces.
Everybody who had some knowledge of training science knew that hard wods all the time with only one heavy day and one long cardio day every 12 days was not optimal once the "newbie gains" were over. It took CrossFit years to finally realise Glassman was not always right about training
‘Walking with a vest ‘ , knowledge bomb for me. My CF box doesn’t do endurance workouts and they don’t have open gym, so I’ll just have to come up with my own plan.
Spoiler alert
Brannen and I are committed to doing this ruck test, we are going to build a plan and will share some of the details on the podcast so you’re not stuck creating this for yourself!
@@kyleruth5145looking forward to this!
So my legs burn immediately on the echo bike and C2 bike. What would be progressions for that leg burning issue… Or is it just spend more time on it?
Sounds like you need to spend some time on the bikes! Try doing 20min on the c2 bike with a higher damper, keep HR in zone-2, couple times per week (2-3). Give your body 4-6 weeks to adapt and see if it’s feeling better.
What is zone two on a bike at a traditional gym? For reference in 20mins I always aim to go for five miles and still be able to have conversation. Also duration? Is 20min to 45min ok?
This is dependent on your max HR on the bike! Zone-2 is typically said to fall between 60-70% of your maximum HR. So if your max HR is 200 BPM, then your zone-2 would fall between 120-140 BPM.
Question: why specifically no running zone 2 if strength limited? Is this for leg strength limitations or upper body too.
Question: if you stay in zone 2 in an emom does that count or do you need the consistency.
Question: i’ve read that zone two should only be done before high intensity, but that it’s non-beneficial after high intensity. Is that true in terms of benefiting endurance or is that a heart longevity thing?
How do hard efforts impact zone 2 training:
th-cam.com/video/dBbK-0vh-d8/w-d-xo.html It's a deep dive by Dr. Inigo San Milan High on zone 2. My TLDR: higher intensity temporary stops the energy systems used in Zone 2. Better to do zone 2 and higher intensity on separate days, or do high intensity at the end of zone 2 training.
I'm an aging 235 lb masters athlete. I've got a frame like a rhino and can pack the muscle. I can grind just about any workout that doesn't have a bottleneck but aside from pullups and T2B my gymnastics suffer. I've been doing a lot of zone 2 work (not running which may be the issue) but body weight movements crush me and knock me out of a lot of qualifiers. What kind of combination work with zone 2 could I do to shore up these deficiencies?
2x per week ski ~30min adding 5min EOW
2x per week run, starting with loaded walking OR interval based running (30/30 then 60/30 then 90/30) progressing when you can complete the target duration while staying in zone-2
Will help upper gymnastics and bodyweight movements
As a fellow heavier athlete (though not AS heavy) I’d suggest using an AAR to reduce impact from running
Would you encourage athletes at all levels who struggle with cardio vascular endurance to do Zone 2 work if they have the time? Maybe program it on their active recovery day?
Assuming you've got the time and never spent any time building a longer endurance base, absolutely. The only issue I've personally found with doing zone-2 work on my recovery day is that depending on which modality I choose... it can definitely affect training and recovery the next day.
With that said, I think "just getting it in" is probably most important here.
I am going to leave this question for our next episode. I actually think Kyle and I can have a good discussion on how to assess, implement, and improve.
What to do when you have the leg fatigue while running? Big stocky leg dude here
Start with loaded walking! You should be able to get into zone-2 with a brisk walk and weighted vest or ruck. Train that for a few weeks until you’re not able to get into zone-2 no matter how fast you walk…then you should be ready for some run-walk intervals without load!
For someone without a zone 2 base they can start by just walking 30 minutes 3 times a week, then gradually increasing intensity of the walks.
Yes to all of the above. I would just start to really work yourself closer to the 2.5hr / week range if it's possible.
I miss these educational style videos
What topic you want in the future?
More to come!
whats your guys opinion on "zone 2 bodybuilding"?
Can you clarify this -- we're filming follow-up tomorrow and I'd like to be able to address this, but not 100% sure what you mean
@@kyleruth5145 if it actually works, potentially a good way for people with limited time to hit accessories and zone 2 at the same time?
This is me trying to describe how it feels when people ask how asthma effects (sports induced; diagnosis while swimming) my workouts. I want to keep going however I feel like I'm smoothed with a hot damp towel with an elephant pushing on my chest.
What would be a good heart rate monitor that doesn’t break the bank?
Polar H10 chest strap, connects via Bluetooth to your phone via polar app.
The Army standard is 45# Ruck Dry (meaning before water weight) in 3hrs or less. High end rucking is between the 2-2.5hr mark.
Good luck!
Thanks, that just made this way harder!
What is Andy’s app??
I do you get better at endurance and stronger at the same time without overtraining? I feel like this is the million dollar question lol
Short answer -- be a newbie haha -- longer answer, a well laid out program and enough calories to ensure you're not losing muscle mass as you train!
Zone 2 endurance training is not stressful to the body due to the low Hr, so less chance of overtraining. My limitation is finding the time to do the zone 2 as generally it should be for longer periods.
Andy's APP??
Sooo…would 30 minutes of wall balls in very small sets with a large work/rest ratio work for training this zone? That way, you’d be training the skill as well. 🤷🏼
This is a great question, the simple answer is that while you are in zone-2, you’re not likely to get the type of adaptations you want out of something that intermittent. This is a fairly complex physiology discussion and we will have to address this in more detail on our follow up podcast.
Yes, it does. How did you know? 😂
Burpees
Massively upgrade your endurance, quit CrossFit and Run, Bike, swim…etc much more lol.
Questions for the next episode:
1. You said 2.5 hours is the minimum effective dosis for zone 2. Does that mean that an elite athlete doing 10+ sessions a week only doing zone 2 for 1 hour on their active rest day is getting zero benefit from their zone 2, since it's under the 2.5 hours?
2. You guys claim zone 2 works because the heart working at a certain heartrate - then why do you recommend certain machines over others? Eg. 'running is better than the concept 2 bike'. Surely the heart doesn't know if its on the road or on a bike when the heart rate is 115-145?
3. You guys said you can split the 2.5 hours out anyhow you want during the week, for example 5 x 30 min. Are you sure about this?
4. The litterature on zone 2 is almost exclusively done on elite marathon runners, cyclists and swimmers, eg. endurance athletes, and they are doing upwards of 15+ hours of zone 2 each week. Where have you guys concluded the 2.5 hour minimum dose?
Thanks for a good episode, many questions have arisen.
1. To be clear here - 2.5hrs is a min effective dose to drive the local and central adaptations that we're looking for from zone-2 work. For an elite athlete (assuming they are a CF athlete) doing 10+ sessions per week -- that 60min zone-2 session on their recovery day is like a drop-in the bucket in terms of adaptation and signaling, it is VERY unlikely that a dose that small is going to impact an elite-athlete's endurance capacity to much of a degree. Not saying that it is a waste of time because for them, depending on where they are at in their periodization that could simply be a maintenance dose.
2. I don't know if I said that zone-2 works because the heart is working at a certain HR -- it has MUCH more to do with the rate of oxygen utilization and delivery in the working tissues AND ensuring that the heart is able to fill completely between beats. So while there isn't really a magic HR that we need to maintain, it is important to regulate intensity so that the above conditions are met. Regarding erg selection - I agree with you here (and even mentioned this in the follow up podcast that releases this week) that "the heart doesn't know what modality you choose". Instead we talked about the fact that you should choose an erg that is going to have the best transfer over to your "weaknesses" in the sport. For me that revolved around basic BODYWEIGHT movements like: DU's, burpees, box jumps, etc -- all of which you can reasonably expect to see some carry-over from running. I would not give this as a blanket recommendation -- I coach a number of athletes who are smaller with strength limitations all of which I have use the rower (or ski-erg depending on priorities) for their endurance work.
3. I addressed this in the follow up podcast as well - you CAN break this up even into 3-6 x 10min segments throughout the day -- some is better than none. HOWEVER from an ideal perspective longer continuous chunks are best. I tried to make this clear in the follow up that I chose 30min segments based on my schedule and time availability, NOT because I thought this was superior to longer continuous duration pieces.
4. This is based on hands on experience coaching athletes in CrossFit at the regional-semi to games level over the last 12 years. However I want to point out that the 2.5hr figure is a "minimum effective dose" -- a good friend of mine who is a 7x CF games qualifier, including top-10 appearances reached out after the podcast and let me know that during his off-season he is doing upward of 7+ hrs / week of zone-2 in addition to basic strength and gymnastics progressions -- cutting that back to about 1/2 of that volume during taper for semi-finals. So keep in mind that 2.5hr figure was literally meant to be a minimum effective dose not a "do this an you'll be elite" type thing.
I feel like this could be misconstrued outside the context of CrossFit....... If you follow me.
haha one might help the other.
75 minute video. 90 useful seconds. Never change, TTT
Hopefully you got something out of the 90 seconds!
Don’t forget the EPO Micro-dosing, SR9009, GW1516 etc… let’s face it the testing for CrossFit games is crap. Two people get blood testing? Rest piss tests? No inter-season biological passport or testing. No advanced testing?
Y’all interrupt each other so much tho lol
Sorry, we will work on it. My mom taught me better than this.
Elite crossfit athletes = enhancement drugs.
Great podcast until I heard the F word 😢
Remember there are ladies listening too
What are these people talking about?
No normal dude can do that. Are they all millionaires who can afford this? The people I know have to work for a living. I work like 50 hours at least. I honestly don‘t get where they take the time and energy for all of this.
Dude…there are 168 hours in a week, if you sleep 8hrs per night that’s 56hrs per week and work 50hrs per week…that leaves you with ONLY 62 hours left in the week.
I suggested 2.5hrs of zone-2 PER WEEK as a target volume, which leaves you with 59.5hrs to watch TH-cam and make snarky comments. Plenty of time.
Actually you could watch TH-cam videos WHILE you did your zone-2, so you have that time back.
@@kyleruth5145 man there are kids and old parents and weightlifting and gymnastics and a business , and, and, and….and at the end of the day a privileged guys like you pop up and tell me: ‚it‘s excuses everybody has 3 hours a week.‘
Thanks.
@Kyle Ruth you definitely don't work or have a family
Lol