Believing I had to have an outline, that I HAD to know what was going to happen next, kept me from writing for 20 years. I literally lost 20 years of writing. I have now discovered that I'm a pantser/discovery writer, and that I cannot outline for the life of me. XD All I really need is an idea, and as I write it, it'll grow by itself, and it'll tell me the ending before I get there. I only wish I had discovered this earlier because then I might have been published by now. Instead, I'm trying to finish editing my first book while writing on my second and third. Oh well. At least I'm having a lot of fun with that now. :)
@Maximillian Wylde Yess!! And discovering the characters too. One of my best (and most loved) characters was a totally unplanned dude. XD So yeah, it's so fun to see where things are going to end up. :)
@@kaylajames9334 Yessir! If I write stuff and something new pops up that's not gonna happen right now, I'll put it in a bullet point list at the end of the story. Some of the things on the list will make it into the story, others won't. It depends a bit on where things go. :P
I write better with an outline. It's much easier to complete a project if you have one. And you can fix major problems before you have invested too much. But if I'm following an outline and I feel it's boring or stupid or just plain sucks, then I abandon the outline. The last thing I wrote, I took all of Act Three and moved it up to Act Two (because Act Two turned out to be boring). So instead of throwing out the whole screenplay, I just had to come up with a new Act Three. Outlining is great if you're not a slave to it. It's also essential if you're collaborating with other people, in my opinion.
Well put. I'm so scatter-brained with ideas I love to chase endlessly. I feel I need some framework, at least in my mind. I'm still learning though. What has your experience been like?
@@FardtilUshid For me, the best outlining systems are "The Nutshell Technique" by Jill Chamberlain and "The Story Solution" by Eric Edson. With Chamberlain's system, you can literally outline your screenplay in 15 minutes to half an hour. With Eric Edson you can have a much more detailed outline that fits the "Hollywood" standard. So you could do both - an initial pass with Chamberlain to see if your story has any potential at all, and than Edson if you want to have a detailed outline. Good luck.
The old architect vs gardener argument… I find that a mixture of both works best for me… I outline the six major plot points - beats and scenes (first inciting incident, then the second and then the third, the mid-point flip the script, point of no return - full commitment, climatic end - arc completion & plot resolution) then I set the characters free and let them drive that plot… their engagement reveals the main character’s arc… it’s magical to watch it all come into a rich alignment on the polished draft… and even better when the ending even surprises you!
This guy made me feel better about a draft that I'm struggling with. I've been beating myself up because I don't know where I want the 2nd half of the story to go, but his points are spot-on. "Trust the unknown" is hard advice for a control freak to swallow, but it's totally true in writing.
When you dont know what to do next do the following: 1 Reread what you've written so far out loud. 2 Ask yourself what is the best decision the characters can make now 3 Dwell on it for a while take a short walk maybe
When I listen to how you teach it's a reminder of something Edward Teller said, "Brilliant people know how to take complex subjects and render them in simple words." If this can't be done, it's the wrong person explaining the subject. You are the right person explaining the subject. You are the true lighthouse. You do wonderfully.
@@spenser9908 Surely, anyone that needs to do that should go with their own process. I'll get an idea and it will roll around for weeks, what about this what about that, what roads could the story go down, what seems contrived and what seems natural. After I get the larger idea figured out I start writing down details. Again, everyone has their own way to travel which is perfectly fine.
This is seriously mindblowing in that it confirmed my deep intuitive thoughts about the process, those I abandoned the more I listened to all the advise about how to write, how to outline, what you need in your story etc. I’m sure those methods work for maybe very pragmatic writers. For me, they killed what got me writing in the first place: my own deep voice that did not ask me if I wanted to write but told me to. In the middle of the night when I stressed about waking up unrested for the day’s work. The voice told me to fuck the work and write. Write, boy, write. And I did until my desire to know how to write properly took me to the wormhole of youtube writing classes which absolutely killed my intuitive, deep voice. I promised myself I’d never watch a lesson again but against all odds, I did give these a chance and I am reborn. Can’t believe it. Absolutely liberating. For a full year, I wrote like two pages. Today I did five. That’s a 1-0 me vs. knowledge.
I have found that outlining a story helps me get started. I tend to deviate about a quarter of the way onto the outline, but it still gives me a starting point, and then I can go for 3-4 hours without stopping
Judging from comments, outlines have been pounded into skulls for so many years that there is fear and superstition around abandoning them. The POWER of English teachers is supreme.
Yes and no. You’re right in that outlines were the most common method taught in schools for so long, that people who are naturally discovery writers are held back because they think they need an outline. For some people it’s not superstition or whatever, they actually need an outline. They need the structure and the organization or else they would never get it done. For some people like this guy, absolutely no outline or guidelines whatsoever. The story will unfold as it comes to the writer. Some people need a mixture of the two. He is very adamantly against them in this video, not sure if he just means for himself personally? Or if he means for all writing. But that’s certainly not the case
I’m surprised by the negative reaction to this video. I’ve disagreed with some of the things he’s said before, but I agree with this wholeheartedly. A writer can create an outline if it works for them, but personally, outlining stifles my creative impulses. I love being surprised while I write. For example, I occasionally create supporting characters who become far more important or prominent than I originally intended, sometimes even becoming more layered than the main characters. Characterization is created organically, not methodically.
Yeah, I agree, I have secondary characters who are the same way in my stories! Even with my main characters, I only have a brief idea about them (name, gender & age).
But that's you personally. I think it has a negative response is because it's different for everyone. If the method he discusses here works for you, fantastic. For me personally, it doesn't, so it's a bit annoying to hear him speak as though his way is the one and only way.
I've experimented with both ways and outlining seems to work better for me. I can and do experience creativity during the outlining process. After I've written the outline, I rarely refer to it, unless I get stuck. I've often gone back to rewrite the outline after writing the script. This is because I learn something that changes the very bones of the story. Also, pay attention to what he admitted. If you outline, you will write faster and create what you set out to create in the first place.
He's absolutely right. I've spent days outlining novels and when I finally went to write it, I found myself not following the outline at all. I had lost all enthusiasm for the story because I already had completed it in the outline. It took away the fun. What works for me now is to have vague notes of characters or plots points that go in a certain direction of the story. If I decide not to follow that note, it didn't take up too much of my time and by then I already have a different idea I will use. It is easier for me to create fiction that way. I like discovering the characters and the plot and finale as I go along.
Maybe try viewing the outline as a moving target. Start with an outline, start writing, and if you find out flaws in your outline, change it to suit what you have written, etc.?
My process requires me to make an outline. Normally when I get an idea for a story, a lot of scene ideas come to me all at once at a speed that is too fast to actually fully break the scenes. This ends up becoming a rough outline. The outline sometimes ends up changing once I start to break scenes, but I find outlining to be a useful way to get all of your ideas down quickly.
I think you're implementing what he's talking about, you're still thinking about the process but using an outline to aide in airing out ideas instead of the product as you said, it changes. You're still very well in the process.
I'm the same. I describe myself as a discovery writer, but by the time I've noted down all the ideas that come to me for what could/should happen in a story and arranged them in rough chronological order, I basically have an outline.
I think that’s very common and that’s the spirit of what an outline is for. I’ve seen consultants and script doctors and such say they can detect why a story isn’t working and what needs to be done to fix the structure at least just by looking at a scene list. They don’t even want to see the full script draft at first because it will have all the dialogue. Structure and spine and a through line seem to me to be essential for a successful telling of a cohesive story that starts in one place and ends in another place that makes sense. There is still lots of room for creativity in how the scenes play out and how the characters act and react, and even for adding events to the plot or taking them out as long as cause and effect is still maintained. A good outline is the perfect intersection of story structure and creativity; but everyone’s process has to work for them. Unless a writer has really internalized story structure and does it automatically as they discover everything else, it just seems like the number of drafts needed to tell the story “right” will number more than they have to. New writers should learn to outline and then if they don’t need to or want to try without it they can. Like anything else, it’s all about the right balance of organization and creativity.
Agreed. I tend to write very intuitively. I have a rough idea of how I want the plot to go, but I am very free with deviating from it when the characters do unexpected things.
This is the comment I was looking for. I just had to write an outline for a class this week for a short film that doesn't really need. The problem is I already wrote the script a week before starting this class and now I'm not looking forward to rewriting the whole thing just to get a passing grade but such is life.
I think ‘outline’ in this interview should be replaced with ‘formula’. There is no formula to successful script, but outline is key to a good script. That doesn’t mean you need follow the third act structure or hero’s journey , rather you should have some general ideas of the direction of your story. Don’t take your outline as gospel, because you will never be open to new ideas and criticism.
I'd argue that whether or not he writes it down, he's outlining in his head. How could you not? How could you finish a scene and not have a rough estimation of what's going to happen in the next? Or for that matter, the next 20 pages? Doesn't mean those thoughts have to happen. Doesn't mean those thoughts won't change and new thoughts won't arise, but you're still thinking about them. Constantly. And that 'mind-document' is constantly evolving as you progress through each written line. For me, writing those thoughts down as an outline is exactly the same. I also know that when I jet out a full fledged outline of basically all the major story beats (and quickly), I have something really special. I know I will add to it and change it and remove some ideas, but I effectively have the entire story constructed at that point, it just needs to be written down. And through the creative process, it and the screenplay will evolve. It also prevents me from forgetting key scenes that I think of.
@@Cthulhu013 Yes: the way that I have been devising new scenes has been chaotic, but before I wrote out my synopsis, I was literally trying to write a story with a memory blank for most of Act 1. Bad idea!
I do this creative process with journaling, poems and "vomit" drafts for scripts. But I eventually get to a point of writing a script where I need structure and an outline to eliminate the endless possibilities and find the right story I think I'm trying to tell. I use the 6 act structure for character actions, save the cat beat sheet for plot points & story beats, and Studio binders 4 endings for theme & character arcs.
I outline the major events. I need to know how it ends and how it starts. I need to know the lowest moment in the story as well. These are guides so that I don't endless go from point A to point B and then go to point Z with no end in sight
This is really one of those "it depends" pieces of advice. While I agree there is a lot of merit to being able to "get in the moment" of your work, or as Stephen King says, "descend into the scene", it doesn't always work, especially for more complex works. Many great books have been outlined, from the tightly written Catch-22 to the sprawling works of Nabokov. Others, like Lord of the Rings, were surprisingly created without any idea of where it would go and how it would end. I think if you have a tight and simple theme, it's easier to write without an outline. If, however, you're writing a complex mystery novel, for example, you absolutely have to outline if you want the payoff to be satisfying. I think it's also a matter of what you want to engage more in the reader. If you want to engage the reader's brain, you must outline. If you want their heart, you should operate by feel.
All very good points. Each person is different. I took my first writing advice from a book written by two authors. I was advised to not outline: their view was to let inspiration and the creative process flow through the writer. It works better for me that way. I just wonder how it would have turned out if I had been advised to outline. 🤔 Edit: Also, some authors, like Tolkien, who can create a whole world (and influence mostly all of Western lore) are plain geniuses.
The purpose of creating an outline is to refine the concepts of your story. That is the process of creative thinking. Just because you have an outline, it doesn’t mean you are not free to explore beyond it either. Anyone is free to improvise as they write, or improve concepts with additional drafts. To be honest, this gentleman is promoting a rigid way of thinking. It’s not helpful to tell writers what they’re doing is wrong. It’s better to enhance your strengths, not abandon them. That is process at its best.
I am experiencing through my book literally what he's talking about. He is absolutely right. I know to a degree if I was on a hard deadline and someone was paying me I couldn't take the route I'm taking. But what he is teaching in this video, I am living it and it's amazing. It's like playing a video game you've never played; you are a participant in the story but you don't know where you're going which in turn makes you an audience to the story. That's what it's like working on my book. I am just as much an audience to my book as others are, the only difference is I'm the one who is being exposed to it first by participating in it's completion. What this man is teaching is a deep mystery because he is teaching to write from our gut and I'll dare to say more so our spirit. Writing from this place requires instinct and a willingness to let go of control. It also requires a willingness to be alone and not fit in with how others do things. I really believe this is why much of what we see today isn't all that great because we're too busy trying to copy success instead allowing ourselves to be different and unique which is how things become great and timeless.
I write an outline less for something to obey and more for "choose your own adventure". something to save the original idea, and the next idea, and the next one, and so on. that way, if I can't figure out what to do next, I can look back at the older ideas and even if I don't use them, I may get a new one that may be the best.
I like this guy. True!! It’s about going with the flow. The more you force it, the more unnatural, the more generic, the more blasé. Keep it real, and deep dive when your feelings call for it.
I don't sit down to write until most of the story is done in my head. I've tried actually writing down outlines and that doesn't really work, but I do need most of the story together in my head. That said, I'm not exactly a best-selling author haha. What works for some won't work for others.
I wholeheartedly agree. The screenplay I'm writing now was going to end one way, but as I wrote, without an outline or chosen ending, my story is going great places that I never saw when I started.
I am a newbie writer and I don't use outlines. I simply ask myself what is the 'goal of the story' and 'how the story ends' and then I begin with an opening that teaches the reader about the main characters coming up with ideas from there to bring them closer to their goal. Thank you for this video because sometimes you need to let your ideas flow naturally. Edit: After some thinking, I've come to the conclusion that outlines are actually really important for newbie writers. I'm not using one for my current story but I still analyzed a few beat sheets and wrote some plot points down to organize my thoughts.
I think the key point here is in the question Jack poses, "Why would you outline?" There's only 2 reasons; a, limited amount of time (a tight deadline/busy schedule) or b, you don't really know *what* you want to write or *why* (in which case the outline is for reassurance, not 'creativity'). 'Discovery vs outline' is irrelevant - do whichever works, it's entirely individual. You discover what the story is really about and what you have to say, during the process (including getting stuck), so the "outline" or "vomit draft" [etc] is not the story you finish with. You don't need an outline to consider how your story will progress or end.
Everyone’s process is different. Some writers need the structure of an outline to guide them. It’s not like you have to stick exactly to what is mapped out. An outline isn’t frozen in time
It's always a vocabulary issue in these discussions, I think. When I write, I'm noodling mostly in bulletpoints and spreadsheets, brainstorming the ideas and characters until it all feels tightly woven, that this story could never have played any other way. That's my framework and I go back to fill it in. That's clearly an outline, but not one where I've decided up front what should happen throughout.
Sidenote, I appreciate how FC is now including more extensive info on each speaker in the description, so you have a little more idea of who's taking from what viewpoint.
Grapes' perspective is definitely interesting. I think writers like him, though I have no idea what their religious views are, are variably creatures of faith. They have to trust themselves and their processes/creativity. I'm on my third major writing project and my process has been different for each one. I will say that outlining in this current project stresses me out. I might outline a scene sequence ahead and write down some emotional beats and eventual major plot points, but oftentimes something better comes along, so I throw them out or modify. I'm not against outlines, but if they're stressing me out, then that's an obstacle to getting my story written and an ultimate hindrance to the story I'm telling. I think I'll let each project tell me what is the best route.
Why some people think you can't be creative while working on an outline mystifies me. Outlining is writing. You can discover "unexpected marvels" and other moments, dialogue, themes and truths, while working on an outline just like you can when you're free writing. Of course you can't get there if you believe it's impossible.
I write very well with the outline but I am VERY prepared to throw it away... I always serve the story first and not my intentions on what I want from that story. The key is to be formless like water when you write and not bind yourself to any one said intention/direction. WE HAVE TO GET OUTA THE WAY OF THE STORIES WE ARE HERE TO SERVE.
Years go, I read an article talked about Hayao Miyazaki who created GHIBLI studio. The article said he never writes an outline. He doesn’t know where his stories came from. It was a stunning experience for me to know that. So when I saw this video, I immediately know he knows what he is talking about.
I was working on a very experimental form once that seemed incohesive when viewed while writing the individual scenes and sections. It was like a poetry book but had narrative when read in order. So I needed an outline for them to be stitched together in a way that made sense when you took a step back from the individual pieces. That was the one and only time I used an outline for my own narrative and I believe that it helped me a lot, creatively. There's merit in creatively limiting yourself, because you're able to fit a lot within the confines of the box that you gave yourself, and maybe you'll chance upon a new shape of things because you're attempting to squeeze something into that box.
we start out destined for a great outlined story journey, then encounter unexpected chaos and obstacle along the the way, now those, in hind sight, becomes the real story. Really appreciate this channel and these brilliant minds. Thanks film courage.
I write a historical novel, a true story. After five to six years of research I know the facts and therefore I couldn't escape an outline. Between the facts there is ample room for creativity, interesting ideas seemingly coming from nowhere, bringing the story to life, precisely like Jack Grapes says. But even then it is still necessary to plot the story and devise an interesting denouement and then the work of a `gardener' is no longer so different from that of an `architect'. edit: That being said, I like Film Courage's videos of Jack Grapes on a lot, he seems to be an excellent teacher.
You'll find what works for you. If you're the overthinking type, you may end up writing your outline for months. After a while you would have already understood your script enough to begin writing, but trying to get it perfect stops you. You may be the type that ends up not planning enough and you get stuck early in writing and burn out because of it. You could also be the type of person who just flies by just with one core idea. The best thing you can do is find what type of person you are when it comes to writing and adapting your method of writing so it compliments you. Really think to yourself if you can move forward and do so if it is logically plausible.
This one was very good. I think we are product focused because we have this Studio Voice in the back of our heads and as an actor I can relate that to the beginning when I would "act" because I felt like I "had to be doing something" that *something* being acting. And it wasn't until I was on sets with professional actors and through classes where I realized the difference between being an Actore and just acting. I get why he calls it "Method Writing". He's applying those same tools to the writing process which is often product focused. We think about genres, we think about the MPAA, we think about branding and possible franchises...That's exactly like being an "Actore". It's an affectation, but in a writing sense. I think perhaps just writing and then applying structure technique afterwards might be a happy medium to satisfy the realities of modern film production but then again with things like Netflix the Studio Voice in the back of our heads is being challenged. I was watching a show similar to Charmed but it was laced with F bombs. It worked in that context even though for that genre you'd normally be going for a PG rating so you'd never do that, but because it's on Netflix there's a lot more leeway.
I always have some sort of preliminary outline for my narrative stuff - lets me see the large story beat and maybe some of the more interesting points in the story...but along the way, the story might and does take some turns and ends up changing course. This usually just ends up adjusting the outline in the process
Fascinating. I guess I don't agree that an outline is somehow essentially more focused on the product and less on the process. An outline is merely an outline, nothing more ... The creative process can use the constraints of an outline like a poet can use the constraints of meter or form. Creativity is often strengthened by provisional constraints of form (or outlines) and true, sometimes it can be inhibited if not destroyed by constraints But simply thinking - very provisionally - about where an idea for a story might end does not necessarily prevent a writers from discovering where they thought their characters would go is not where they were in fact going AND if the writer is honest and writes in good faith he or she will follow the character and not force them into a place where they cannot be.
I get what he means as someone who has been paid and gets paid for stories ...outlines is how you meet a deadline .. but i'm working on my own novel and i approached with the same concept as a product that's paid for... and i was so excited until i really looked at it and i realized this is still not the story this is a different story so i started researching and world building and all of that led me to just starting with a blank sheet of paper and starting at whatever point came easy and what's forming is far more magical so far then the idea I originally thought of
With all due respeect, I need a soft outline, because without some kind of boundary, my characters start taking over the plot. I let them, and then I lose the original beauty of the story. I need a simple reminder of what I originally imagined it to be. Not some hared and fast committment of everything that happens.
I thought that too, but here's the confusion. It sounds like she asks the question, "Why is it important to outline your story?" after he's already said, "I don't think outlining is important." Except that his statement was edited as a tease. He didn't actually say anything about outlining before she asked the question.
At around 5:11..."But if they're not paying me ..." YES!!!! I love that free-flowing creative process of just letting go and write , write , write !!! Try it ! It's amazing what your mind can come up with when not ' directed' to do otherwise . "Go with the unknown ! "That's genius !!
I start with an idea, usually a scene that popped up in my head. I start writing it. As I'm writing, new things pop up, new scenes, new characters, new places. I may write them down into a bullet point list of things I want to happen in the story. But sometimes there's a left at the traffic lights, and some of those scenes no longer fit the story and I'll abandon them while new ones pop up. But most of the ideas will make it in. Some in an altered form, some as I thought, and some not at all. The story is as much a surprise to me as it'll be for the readers. Any plotholes and things will be patched up in editing. But I try to keep track of the things that happen so it shall make sense. I kinda write an outline, but after it's happened (after I've written the chapters) so that I can find it easily again if I need to look it up. XD It seems to work. :)
Without an outline, I can't concentrate on the chapter I'm writing. I keep asking myself if it is really necessary or interesting. And I can't have answers if I didn't planned and reflect about everything beforehand. If I really force myself, I can write some words even in this state of anxiety and panic. But it's never a pleasant work. I don't see that magic some people claim to see when pantsing. I'm just too worried about wasting time and can't stop thinking about the massive rewriting that'll be waiting for me when I finish this draft. It's a lot better start writing knowing where you're going. The revision stage don't feel that scary when you already know what you're doing since chapter one.
I've been starting with an outline consistently as of late and I also have no problem deviating from it when a clearer path reveals itself along the way. In the interview he mentioned using an outline if there is a deadline. The outline can be a useful road map. Sure, if you have time to wander around then you might discover something awesome in the wild. Some just get lost in the wilderness though. More often than not, I'd rather know where I'm going. The downside is that I have gotten stuck on the outline. Personally I feel that in freestyle mode you run into more potential issues. If you get past a problem during the outline, you'll probably be ok after that but when you freestyle you might fix one issue only to create a brand new problem.
I’d say do whatever works. And if it’s not working then find a different way. The creative process by nature is not the same for everyone, or even project to project. I’ve gone through an extensive creative writing process that has become a strong outline as far as beginning, middle, and end. So I know the signposts of where I’m heading. As I’ve continued the creative writing process, my outline changes/adapts to what I’m discovering as I go. So it’s been a lot of back and forth. Im not married to it, and expect certain parts to unexpectedly improve as I go further as they have been, but for my project the whole point of the project is where it ends. I’m guessing if Jack were pressed harder, he’d say that everyone ends up with an outline, that it should be adaptable, but unless you’ve already been doing a lot of writing in your head or on paper, of course you wouldn’t likely start with the outline.
Holy calamity, this is the video I needed right now. I've been stuck in a rut in my writing for weeks because of struggles life has been throwing at me in the last few weeks, and to combat that I latched onto the idea of getting the product out. It's just not how I work as a writer, and I think I lost sight of that.
I both outline and write in free-flow. What I call an outline is more like brain storming. The ideas often just flow and I have to capture them as they come to me. This is especially helpful in writing a Sci-fi novel with world building and knowing where the end is heading. On the series I have planned now I will probably keep 75-80 of what I am "outlining" because it includes characters, their backgrounds, settings, cultures and plot points. Sometimes even dialogue comes to me and I end up writing whole conversations. Maybe I should call what I do a ruff ruff draft with bonus info. I won't start my ruff draft until I know my world/galaxy, and it's inhabitants better.
@@avivastudios2311 , so far so good on keeping tract of my world building, which can seem overwhelming at times. After I've completed my loose "outline" of my series I've got a couple of books on writing science fiction that I plan to read before settling in to tackle that 1st book. I just want to make sure things like space travel read as authentic.
I like how she kept him asking him what he thought about knowing where you're going with an outline. I think it got him to admit that when there's a deadline or money involved then it makes sense to write one. 👍
I got the feeling that the lady doesn't understand what he's saying or she ignores it because her questions don't follow what he's saying, she asks the exact opposite and he needs to explain again.
There are two main problems. One is, can you effectively portray escalation of stakes without an outline? Secondly, can you explore the decisions in a way that portrays themes without knowing exactly what arc you are pursuing? I would say an outline can be creative. And then extra creativity will flow as you carry out the outline.
I need an ending. I need a starting point. I need a general idea of how to get from one to the other. I always start at the beginning and it's a straight line. As I write, vague ideas sharpen as I draw near. Outlines for me have never been a thing. But that's me. Same way some people start without a planned finish and I can never write like that.
I think it is a balance of starting with an idea, then jumping into just writing - be free and write! Finish the first draft. THEN outline: write down your 15 beats, or in other words: What is your story about? Answer: Who? What? When? Where? Why? Or the "What happens in each scene that moves the story forward or reveal character?" If you can not answer the last question, cut the scene with because it's not doing its job. Don't throw anything out - just put it in a folder that says cut from script, so you can always go back and pull that gem of dialog or action - if you need/want it. Been teaching for a while and also writing too; both books and screenplays, and this works for me - and also my students: both screenwriters and authors. Enjoy the journey!
I love a lot of what Mr. Grapes has to say but I've seen a lot of good story ideas go south because they didn't want to outline. You can always step outside the outline while you're writing and explore the ideas within it. That can certainly take you in new directions and change the story for the better but in my experience both writing and reading other people's scripts I find that even though it may be about the journey and not the destination, many journies without destinations can be frustratingly unfocused and pointless.
I personally get some beats or visual moments and I can build a story off of some beats. It's a lot more fun working though the story creatively in real time and go back and tweak it.
I don't really like outlines, it's boring and I always lose interest in my own story. So I usually keep a general idea of the beginning and the end in my memory and figure the middle on my own. So I write what I have in mind and fill in the blanks as I go. I like to know the characters as I go, and see them create their own conflicts that can converge to interesting points. I think it's more fun and I can feel the characters' emotions on a deep personal level, which I wouldn't feel if I just coldheartedly and logically outlined every conflict that happens. But I do keep notes of my characters after I get to know them, and a summary of what happened so far in the story so I dont get lost. I also have to keep track that everything goes accordingly to my main themes in the first place. There is a downside to it though, as I have to go back to rewrite some stuff and add new details.. I am not organized enough to meticulously write all the plot points and character arcs on a list, I've tried it before. But I do think its necessary to properly know your a story in your head, what you really want to say, what is your message and explore upon it. Otherwise, it may seem all over the place and aimless.
he's right... the worst mistake i made with a story that had so much more potential than it ended up living up to was outlining the entire thing from start to finish rather than allowing it to take its own shape
I'm currently discovering that winging it without an outline will most likely be the way to go with the fantasy story I'm writing right now because I don't exactly know my characters as well as I should, so by not giving myself limitations I can discover their personality better. It's kind of sucky though that I have to scratch some of the scenes that I've already written and love because they no longer fit the story this is turning out to be. Putting them in a file for possible future use somewhere, though, in case the opportunity arises. :)
I feel half-half about this. Initially, I began writing extremely detailed outlines to know exactly where I was going. I felt so beholden to it, though, all creative energy was sapped away by the time I reached the halfway or end point of the story. After awhile of that, I opted NOT to use an outline and just went with the basic concept I wanted to write. The great news is that the story went in turns I didn't expect and felt 'organic'. The bad news? I never finished those stories. The story took so many turns. Because the ending was also nowhere near in sight, I lost my way and felt overwhelmed. I gave myself a break. Then I started to procrastinate. Then I moved on. Basically, I couldn't finish these stories because the ending felt too far away and abstract I lost all motivation to continue. I see the same damn thing happening to world-renowned George RR Martin. He can't complete his 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series because he likely opened too many doors and can't find his way out of the maze he created for himself. It's no wonder he jumps into other smaller projects. They, at least, give him a sense of closure. I don't think it's enough for writers to simply FEEL their way into a story - to simply EXPERIENCE the process of writing. We also have to reach for a goal, otherwise we'd be drifting further out into the sea with no way back to land. So yeah. The whole 'don't need an outline' may work for some writers - typically those who are committed to seeing things through and have the discipline AND ability not to feel overwhelmed. For the rest of us, we may need an outline, if only to serve as our anchor. I'm trying to write again. I don't want to feel overwhelmed anymore. Therefore, I'm using an outline. However, I'm going into this with the understanding this outline WILL change as I write and flesh out concepts, characters, and motivations. It's inevitable. I just need to have a basic guide for myself so I don't lose my way again.
Why is this me? 🤣 I am always so excited by a new story, then it takes too long and I loose interest. Then a new story idea comes, and on to the new one I go! It's a vicious cycle.
I never outline. It always starts with an idea or a dream. I just start and follow my characters and the flow of the story. It always leads me to places and situations I didnt even think about. Sometimes characters die, sometimes they turn out to be something else than what they seemed to be. It even surprises me, so it certainly will surprise the reader even more. When you dont plan to kill a character or put a twist in there, and all of a sudden it pops up to surprise YOU, then you know you are doing something right. Of course it needs to make sense in terms of the story. It always does when it happens to me. I could never even imagine making an outline and following it. I only go by impulses and ideas. It surely CAN happen that you have to stop at a certain point, because you dont know where to go next. What I do: I go back and take a GOOD look around my story and characters, because I know that somewhere is the solution for my question. I guess many plotters have different instincts when it comes to storytelling. My mind always produced very elaborate stories, I have seen thousands of movies, I heve read hundrets of books. It really helps building a kind of "blueprint collection" in your mind. Whenever I write, its a wild mix of blueprint bits and pieces that all fit together. I trust my abilities to CREATE. And I love the way. Its always like seeing a movie in my head WHILE it gets filmed. Characters tell you what to write, scenes tell you what to write. The story develops very natural that way. Its pure joy.
Right on. Let's get out of figuring out some kind of cheat sheet or formulas. A true artist process has best practices to keep in mind there is no short cut to exploring the soul.
"Why would I purposefully sabotage my genius."
😆😄😄
Listening to him is delightful.
Believing I had to have an outline, that I HAD to know what was going to happen next, kept me from writing for 20 years. I literally lost 20 years of writing. I have now discovered that I'm a pantser/discovery writer, and that I cannot outline for the life of me. XD All I really need is an idea, and as I write it, it'll grow by itself, and it'll tell me the ending before I get there. I only wish I had discovered this earlier because then I might have been published by now. Instead, I'm trying to finish editing my first book while writing on my second and third. Oh well. At least I'm having a lot of fun with that now. :)
@Maximillian Wylde Yess!! And discovering the characters too. One of my best (and most loved) characters was a totally unplanned dude. XD So yeah, it's so fun to see where things are going to end up. :)
Do you jot down notes as you write?
@@kaylajames9334 Yessir! If I write stuff and something new pops up that's not gonna happen right now, I'll put it in a bullet point list at the end of the story. Some of the things on the list will make it into the story, others won't. It depends a bit on where things go. :P
@@SysterYster you and Julian saved my life today. I am a pantser, but I have been stressing about a writing process.
@@kaylajames9334 You're welcome. :) Don't stress, just let your story tell itself. ;) You can always edit later if you need to. Happy writing!
"Don't worry" the best story telling advice I've ever heard.
This guy is a genius. Outlines always stifle creativity and ensures predictable outcomes.
Here's both sides - th-cam.com/video/DlGJfhuno6g/w-d-xo.html
This man is talking about the spirit of writing ✍.
I write better with an outline. It's much easier to complete a project if you have one. And you can fix major problems before you have invested too much. But if I'm following an outline and I feel it's boring or stupid or just plain sucks, then I abandon the outline. The last thing I wrote, I took all of Act Three and moved it up to Act Two (because Act Two turned out to be boring). So instead of throwing out the whole screenplay, I just had to come up with a new Act Three. Outlining is great if you're not a slave to it. It's also essential if you're collaborating with other people, in my opinion.
totally agree, well said!
Well put. I'm so scatter-brained with ideas I love to chase endlessly. I feel I need some framework, at least in my mind.
I'm still learning though.
What has your experience been like?
@@FardtilUshid For me, the best outlining systems are "The Nutshell Technique" by Jill Chamberlain and "The Story Solution" by Eric Edson. With Chamberlain's system, you can literally outline your screenplay in 15 minutes to half an hour. With Eric Edson you can have a much more detailed outline that fits the "Hollywood" standard. So you could do both - an initial pass with Chamberlain to see if your story has any potential at all, and than Edson if you want to have a detailed outline. Good luck.
100% this. I've found my best ideas came when I hated my original idea and scrapped it in the nth hour.
@@ToddHowardWithAGun omg so do i hahaha
The old architect vs gardener argument… I find that a mixture of both works best for me… I outline the six major plot points - beats and scenes (first inciting incident, then the second and then the third, the mid-point flip the script, point of no return - full commitment, climatic end - arc completion & plot resolution) then I set the characters free and let them drive that plot… their engagement reveals the main character’s arc… it’s magical to watch it all come into a rich alignment on the polished draft… and even better when the ending even surprises you!
This guy made me feel better about a draft that I'm struggling with.
I've been beating myself up because I don't know where I want the 2nd half of the story to go, but his points are spot-on. "Trust the unknown" is hard advice for a control freak to swallow, but it's totally true in writing.
When you dont know what to do next do the following:
1 Reread what you've written so far out loud.
2 Ask yourself what is the best decision the characters can make now
3 Dwell on it for a while take a short walk maybe
When I listen to how you teach it's a reminder of something Edward Teller said, "Brilliant people know how to take complex subjects and render them in simple words." If this can't be done, it's the wrong person explaining the subject. You are the right person explaining the subject. You are the true lighthouse. You do wonderfully.
It's just a personal choice and if a writer needs an outline to stay organized so be it. Each person does it their own way.
You need an outline to keep track, otherwise you’ll be making plot holes like nobody’s business.
@@spenser9908 Some people can keep track in their head, I'd say most can't. An outline is another tool in the toolbox in my opinion.
There is still editing.
@@DylansPen So there's an outline in their heads? Maybe just write it down so you don't forget. That's what I'm saying.
@@spenser9908 Surely, anyone that needs to do that should go with their own process. I'll get an idea and it will roll around for weeks, what about this what about that, what roads could the story go down, what seems contrived and what seems natural. After I get the larger idea figured out I start writing down details. Again, everyone has their own way to travel which is perfectly fine.
This is seriously mindblowing in that it confirmed my deep intuitive thoughts about the process, those I abandoned the more I listened to all the advise about how to write, how to outline, what you need in your story etc. I’m sure those methods work for maybe very pragmatic writers. For me, they killed what got me writing in the first place: my own deep voice that did not ask me if I wanted to write but told me to. In the middle of the night when I stressed about waking up unrested for the day’s work. The voice told me to fuck the work and write. Write, boy, write. And I did until my desire to know how to write properly took me to the wormhole of youtube writing classes which absolutely killed my intuitive, deep voice. I promised myself I’d never watch a lesson again but against all odds, I did give these a chance and I am reborn. Can’t believe it. Absolutely liberating. For a full year, I wrote like two pages. Today I did five. That’s a 1-0 me vs. knowledge.
I have found that outlining a story helps me get started. I tend to deviate about a quarter of the way onto the outline, but it still gives me a starting point, and then I can go for 3-4 hours without stopping
I respect this perspective.
Judging from comments, outlines have been pounded into skulls for so many years that there is fear and superstition around abandoning them. The POWER of English teachers is supreme.
Yes and no.
You’re right in that outlines were the most common method taught in schools for so long, that people who are naturally discovery writers are held back because they think they need an outline.
For some people it’s not superstition or whatever, they actually need an outline. They need the structure and the organization or else they would never get it done.
For some people like this guy, absolutely no outline or guidelines whatsoever. The story will unfold as it comes to the writer.
Some people need a mixture of the two.
He is very adamantly against them in this video, not sure if he just means for himself personally? Or if he means for all writing. But that’s certainly not the case
I’m surprised by the negative reaction to this video. I’ve disagreed with some of the things he’s said before, but I agree with this wholeheartedly. A writer can create an outline if it works for them, but personally, outlining stifles my creative impulses. I love being surprised while I write. For example, I occasionally create supporting characters who become far more important or prominent than I originally intended, sometimes even becoming more layered than the main characters. Characterization is created organically, not methodically.
Yeah, I agree, I have secondary characters who are the same way in my stories! Even with my main characters, I only have a brief idea about them (name, gender & age).
But that's you personally. I think it has a negative response is because it's different for everyone. If the method he discusses here works for you, fantastic. For me personally, it doesn't, so it's a bit annoying to hear him speak as though his way is the one and only way.
I've experimented with both ways and outlining seems to work better for me.
I can and do experience creativity during the outlining process.
After I've written the outline, I rarely refer to it, unless I get stuck.
I've often gone back to rewrite the outline after writing the script. This is because I learn something that changes the very bones of the story.
Also, pay attention to what he admitted. If you outline, you will write faster and create what you set out to create in the first place.
He's absolutely right.
I've spent days outlining novels and when I finally went to write it, I found myself not following the outline at all. I had lost all enthusiasm for the story because I already had completed it in the outline. It took away the fun. What works for me now is to have vague notes of characters or plots points that go in a certain direction of the story. If I decide not to follow that note, it didn't take up too much of my time and by then I already have a different idea I will use. It is easier for me to create fiction that way. I like discovering the characters and the plot and finale as I go along.
Maybe try viewing the outline as a moving target. Start with an outline, start writing, and if you find out flaws in your outline, change it to suit what you have written, etc.?
My process requires me to make an outline. Normally when I get an idea for a story, a lot of scene ideas come to me all at once at a speed that is too fast to actually fully break the scenes. This ends up becoming a rough outline. The outline sometimes ends up changing once I start to break scenes, but I find outlining to be a useful way to get all of your ideas down quickly.
I think you're implementing what he's talking about, you're still thinking about the process but using an outline to aide in airing out ideas instead of the product as you said, it changes. You're still very well in the process.
I'm the same. I describe myself as a discovery writer, but by the time I've noted down all the ideas that come to me for what could/should happen in a story and arranged them in rough chronological order, I basically have an outline.
I think that’s very common and that’s the spirit of what an outline is for. I’ve seen consultants and script doctors and such say they can detect why a story isn’t working and what needs to be done to fix the structure at least just by looking at a scene list. They don’t even want to see the full script draft at first because it will have all the dialogue.
Structure and spine and a through line seem to me to be essential for a successful telling of a cohesive story that starts in one place and ends in another place that makes sense.
There is still lots of room for creativity in how the scenes play out and how the characters act and react, and even for adding events to the plot or taking them out as long as cause and effect is still maintained.
A good outline is the perfect intersection of story structure and creativity; but everyone’s process has to work for them. Unless a writer has really internalized story structure and does it automatically as they discover everything else, it just seems like the number of drafts needed to tell the story “right” will number more than they have to.
New writers should learn to outline and then if they don’t need to or want to try without it they can. Like anything else, it’s all about the right balance of organization and creativity.
I love this guy! It might just be because he's saying everything I want to hear.
I seriously need to read his books or something all of his advice really gets me thinking and motivated.
I hate outlines. I wrote a two thousand word outline for one of my stories, and lost the enthusiasm to write the story. Never doing that again.
You hated your own story?
Agreed. I tend to write very intuitively. I have a rough idea of how I want the plot to go, but I am very free with deviating from it when the characters do unexpected things.
This is the comment I was looking for. I just had to write an outline for a class this week for a short film that doesn't really need. The problem is I already wrote the script a week before starting this class and now I'm not looking forward to rewriting the whole thing just to get a passing grade but such is life.
I think ‘outline’ in this interview should be replaced with ‘formula’. There is no formula to successful script, but outline is key to a good script. That doesn’t mean you need follow the third act structure or hero’s journey , rather you should have some general ideas of the direction of your story. Don’t take your outline as gospel, because you will never be open to new ideas and criticism.
I'd argue that whether or not he writes it down, he's outlining in his head. How could you not? How could you finish a scene and not have a rough estimation of what's going to happen in the next? Or for that matter, the next 20 pages? Doesn't mean those thoughts have to happen. Doesn't mean those thoughts won't change and new thoughts won't arise, but you're still thinking about them. Constantly. And that 'mind-document' is constantly evolving as you progress through each written line. For me, writing those thoughts down as an outline is exactly the same.
I also know that when I jet out a full fledged outline of basically all the major story beats (and quickly), I have something really special. I know I will add to it and change it and remove some ideas, but I effectively have the entire story constructed at that point, it just needs to be written down. And through the creative process, it and the screenplay will evolve. It also prevents me from forgetting key scenes that I think of.
@@Cthulhu013 Yes: the way that I have been devising new scenes has been chaotic, but before I wrote out my synopsis, I was literally trying to write a story with a memory blank for most of Act 1. Bad idea!
More videos on outlining - buff.ly/3ADKHUo
This makes sense. My character does what he wants. I’ve given up trying to make him behave.
I do this creative process with journaling, poems and "vomit" drafts for scripts. But I eventually get to a point of writing a script where I need structure and an outline to eliminate the endless possibilities and find the right story I think I'm trying to tell.
I use the 6 act structure for character actions, save the cat beat sheet for plot points & story beats, and Studio binders 4 endings for theme & character arcs.
I outline the major events. I need to know how it ends and how it starts. I need to know the lowest moment in the story as well. These are guides so that I don't endless go from point A to point B and then go to point Z with no end in sight
This is really one of those "it depends" pieces of advice. While I agree there is a lot of merit to being able to "get in the moment" of your work, or as Stephen King says, "descend into the scene", it doesn't always work, especially for more complex works. Many great books have been outlined, from the tightly written Catch-22 to the sprawling works of Nabokov. Others, like Lord of the Rings, were surprisingly created without any idea of where it would go and how it would end. I think if you have a tight and simple theme, it's easier to write without an outline. If, however, you're writing a complex mystery novel, for example, you absolutely have to outline if you want the payoff to be satisfying.
I think it's also a matter of what you want to engage more in the reader. If you want to engage the reader's brain, you must outline. If you want their heart, you should operate by feel.
All very good points. Each person is different. I took my first writing advice from a book written by two authors. I was advised to not outline: their view was to let inspiration and the creative process flow through the writer. It works better for me that way. I just wonder how it would have turned out if I had been advised to outline. 🤔
Edit: Also, some authors, like Tolkien, who can create a whole world (and influence mostly all of Western lore) are plain geniuses.
The purpose of creating an outline is to refine the concepts of your story. That is the process of creative thinking. Just because you have an outline, it doesn’t mean you are not free to explore beyond it either. Anyone is free to improvise as they write, or improve concepts with additional drafts. To be honest, this gentleman is promoting a rigid way of thinking. It’s not helpful to tell writers what they’re doing is wrong. It’s better to enhance your strengths, not abandon them. That is process at its best.
I am experiencing through my book literally what he's talking about. He is absolutely right. I know to a degree if I was on a hard deadline and someone was paying me I couldn't take the route I'm taking. But what he is teaching in this video, I am living it and it's amazing. It's like playing a video game you've never played; you are a participant in the story but you don't know where you're going which in turn makes you an audience to the story. That's what it's like working on my book. I am just as much an audience to my book as others are, the only difference is I'm the one who is being exposed to it first by participating in it's completion.
What this man is teaching is a deep mystery because he is teaching to write from our gut and I'll dare to say more so our spirit. Writing from this place requires instinct and a willingness to let go of control. It also requires a willingness to be alone and not fit in with how others do things. I really believe this is why much of what we see today isn't all that great because we're too busy trying to copy success instead allowing ourselves to be different and unique which is how things become great and timeless.
I write an outline less for something to obey and more for "choose your own adventure". something to save the original idea, and the next idea, and the next one, and so on. that way, if I can't figure out what to do next, I can look back at the older ideas and even if I don't use them, I may get a new one that may be the best.
Thank you for this talk. It was so beautiful. Thank you dear mentor...
I like this guy. True!! It’s about going with the flow. The more you force it, the more unnatural, the more generic, the more blasé. Keep it real, and deep dive when your feelings call for it.
I don't sit down to write until most of the story is done in my head. I've tried actually writing down outlines and that doesn't really work, but I do need most of the story together in my head. That said, I'm not exactly a best-selling author haha. What works for some won't work for others.
I wholeheartedly agree. The screenplay I'm writing now was going to end one way, but as I wrote, without an outline or chosen ending, my story is going great places that I never saw when I started.
Are you still do that or now you be the Outliner.
This is what I needed to hear you guys are really helping me move along fast
I always outline but that does not mean that I will always follow it. But like the speaker I really enjoy the process.
I am a newbie writer and I don't use outlines. I simply ask myself what is the 'goal of the story' and 'how the story ends' and then I begin with an opening that teaches the reader about the main characters coming up with ideas from there to bring them closer to their goal.
Thank you for this video because sometimes you need to let your ideas flow naturally.
Edit: After some thinking, I've come to the conclusion that outlines are actually really important for newbie writers. I'm not using one for my current story but I still analyzed a few beat sheets and wrote some plot points down to organize my thoughts.
I think the key point here is in the question Jack poses, "Why would you outline?" There's only 2 reasons; a, limited amount of time (a tight deadline/busy schedule) or b, you don't really know *what* you want to write or *why* (in which case the outline is for reassurance, not 'creativity'). 'Discovery vs outline' is irrelevant - do whichever works, it's entirely individual. You discover what the story is really about and what you have to say, during the process (including getting stuck), so the "outline" or "vomit draft" [etc] is not the story you finish with. You don't need an outline to consider how your story will progress or end.
Everyone’s process is different. Some writers need the structure of an outline to guide them. It’s not like you have to stick exactly to what is mapped out. An outline isn’t frozen in time
Buying this guy’s Method Writing book immediately.
Trust. Trust the process. Free writing is almost spiritual when the flow happens.
@@hammerofdavey You’re so right. I have never cried at the end of church.
@@tonykono5225 You went to a fake church.
GRRM trusts the process and that dude's more than a decade late with his next book.
@@Shade23753 all churches are fake
It's always a vocabulary issue in these discussions, I think. When I write, I'm noodling mostly in bulletpoints and spreadsheets, brainstorming the ideas and characters until it all feels tightly woven, that this story could never have played any other way. That's my framework and I go back to fill it in. That's clearly an outline, but not one where I've decided up front what should happen throughout.
I agree. It's very soothing to hear this, hear him. Thank you Film Courage.
Sidenote, I appreciate how FC is now including more extensive info on each speaker in the description, so you have a little more idea of who's taking from what viewpoint.
Grapes' perspective is definitely interesting. I think writers like him, though I have no idea what their religious views are, are variably creatures of faith. They have to trust themselves and their processes/creativity. I'm on my third major writing project and my process has been different for each one. I will say that outlining in this current project stresses me out. I might outline a scene sequence ahead and write down some emotional beats and eventual major plot points, but oftentimes something better comes along, so I throw them out or modify. I'm not against outlines, but if they're stressing me out, then that's an obstacle to getting my story written and an ultimate hindrance to the story I'm telling. I think I'll let each project tell me what is the best route.
8:25 "Go with the unknown". That sounds very lovecraftian to me, so...I like it.
Why some people think you can't be creative while working on an outline mystifies me. Outlining is writing. You can discover "unexpected marvels" and other moments, dialogue, themes and truths, while working on an outline just like you can when you're free writing. Of course you can't get there if you believe it's impossible.
All my books never had an outline. They all surprised me. 🥳
I write very well with the outline but I am VERY prepared to throw it away... I always serve the story first and not my intentions on what I want from that story. The key is to be formless like water when you write and not bind yourself to any one said intention/direction. WE HAVE TO GET OUTA THE WAY OF THE STORIES WE ARE HERE TO SERVE.
This is probably why so many writers use a mixture of outlining and discovery writing.
Years go, I read an article talked about Hayao Miyazaki who created GHIBLI studio. The article said he never writes an outline.
He doesn’t know where his stories came from.
It was a stunning experience for me to know that.
So when I saw this video, I immediately know he knows what he is talking about.
Writers who don’t need an outline, don’t need an outline. Those who do, do. Any questions ?
I was working on a very experimental form once that seemed incohesive when viewed while writing the individual scenes and sections. It was like a poetry book but had narrative when read in order. So I needed an outline for them to be stitched together in a way that made sense when you took a step back from the individual pieces. That was the one and only time I used an outline for my own narrative and I believe that it helped me a lot, creatively. There's merit in creatively limiting yourself, because you're able to fit a lot within the confines of the box that you gave yourself, and maybe you'll chance upon a new shape of things because you're attempting to squeeze something into that box.
we start out destined for a great outlined story journey, then encounter unexpected chaos and obstacle along the the way, now those, in hind sight, becomes the real story.
Really appreciate this channel and these brilliant minds.
Thanks film courage.
Jack has now taken the spot formally held by Eric Edson, as the best advice for writers
It's true, even without an outline I could write a story. Thanks to FC.
I write a historical novel, a true story. After five to six years of research I know the facts and therefore I couldn't escape an outline. Between the facts there is ample room for creativity, interesting ideas seemingly coming from nowhere, bringing the story to life, precisely like Jack Grapes says. But even then it is still necessary to plot the story and devise an interesting denouement and then the work of a `gardener' is no longer so different from that of an `architect'.
edit: That being said, I like Film Courage's videos of Jack Grapes on a lot, he seems to be an excellent teacher.
You'll find what works for you. If you're the overthinking type, you may end up writing your outline for months. After a while you would have already understood your script enough to begin writing, but trying to get it perfect stops you. You may be the type that ends up not planning enough and you get stuck early in writing and burn out because of it. You could also be the type of person who just flies by just with one core idea. The best thing you can do is find what type of person you are when it comes to writing and adapting your method of writing so it compliments you. Really think to yourself if you can move forward and do so if it is logically plausible.
Some of us need an outline to keep us on course.
I’ve always found that if you have an ending you almost always Never need an outline.
Having the ending is outlining in and of itself.
As long as I have a pistol, I'll never need a weapon. 😎
I’m buying his book right now.
I need to do an outline, I finally finished my first one and my first draft is flowing wonderfully!
This one was very good. I think we are product focused because we have this Studio Voice in the back of our heads and as an actor I can relate that to the beginning when I would "act" because I felt like I "had to be doing something" that *something* being acting. And it wasn't until I was on sets with professional actors and through classes where I realized the difference between being an Actore and just acting. I get why he calls it "Method Writing". He's applying those same tools to the writing process which is often product focused. We think about genres, we think about the MPAA, we think about branding and possible franchises...That's exactly like being an "Actore". It's an affectation, but in a writing sense. I think perhaps just writing and then applying structure technique afterwards might be a happy medium to satisfy the realities of modern film production but then again with things like Netflix the Studio Voice in the back of our heads is being challenged. I was watching a show similar to Charmed but it was laced with F bombs. It worked in that context even though for that genre you'd normally be going for a PG rating so you'd never do that, but because it's on Netflix there's a lot more leeway.
What a beautiful interview! Outlining felt so untrue to me and I convinced myself that it was the only way.
I always have some sort of preliminary outline for my narrative stuff - lets me see the large story beat and maybe some of the more interesting points in the story...but along the way, the story might and does take some turns and ends up changing course. This usually just ends up adjusting the outline in the process
Fascinating. I guess I don't agree that an outline is somehow essentially more focused on the product and less on the process. An outline is merely an outline, nothing more ... The creative process can use the constraints of an outline like a poet can use the constraints of meter or form. Creativity is often strengthened by provisional constraints of form (or outlines) and true, sometimes it can be inhibited if not destroyed by constraints But simply thinking - very provisionally - about where an idea for a story might end does not necessarily prevent a writers from discovering where they thought their characters would go is not where they were in fact going AND if the writer is honest and writes in good faith he or she will follow the character and not force them into a place where they cannot be.
Passionate man of the heart
I get what he means as someone who has been paid and gets paid for stories ...outlines is how you meet a deadline .. but i'm working on my own novel and i approached with the same concept as a product that's paid for... and i was so excited until i really looked at it and i realized this is still not the story this is a different story so i started researching and world building and all of that led me to just starting with a blank sheet of paper and starting at whatever point came easy and what's forming is far more magical so far then the idea I originally thought of
With all due respeect, I need a soft outline, because without some kind of boundary, my characters start taking over the plot. I let them, and then I lose the original beauty of the story. I need a simple reminder of what I originally imagined it to be. Not some hared and fast committment of everything that happens.
This lady wasn't listening to anything he said. She stayed to the outline of her questions
I thought the same. She either wasn't listening or was just really dense. Or had an outline.
I thought that too, but here's the confusion. It sounds like she asks the question, "Why is it important to outline your story?" after he's already said, "I don't think outlining is important." Except that his statement was edited as a tease. He didn't actually say anything about outlining before she asked the question.
it flows better with an outline, but everyone has their own method i guess..
At around 5:11..."But if they're not paying me ..." YES!!!! I love that free-flowing creative process of just letting go and write , write , write !!! Try it ! It's amazing what your mind can come up with when not ' directed' to do otherwise . "Go with the unknown ! "That's genius !!
I start with an idea, usually a scene that popped up in my head. I start writing it. As I'm writing, new things pop up, new scenes, new characters, new places. I may write them down into a bullet point list of things I want to happen in the story. But sometimes there's a left at the traffic lights, and some of those scenes no longer fit the story and I'll abandon them while new ones pop up. But most of the ideas will make it in. Some in an altered form, some as I thought, and some not at all. The story is as much a surprise to me as it'll be for the readers. Any plotholes and things will be patched up in editing. But I try to keep track of the things that happen so it shall make sense. I kinda write an outline, but after it's happened (after I've written the chapters) so that I can find it easily again if I need to look it up. XD It seems to work. :)
Do you personally write better with or without an outline?
With
I need an outline, absolutely no question.
Without
Without an outline, I can't concentrate on the chapter I'm writing. I keep asking myself if it is really necessary or interesting. And I can't have answers if I didn't planned and reflect about everything beforehand. If I really force myself, I can write some words even in this state of anxiety and panic. But it's never a pleasant work. I don't see that magic some people claim to see when pantsing. I'm just too worried about wasting time and can't stop thinking about the massive rewriting that'll be waiting for me when I finish this draft.
It's a lot better start writing knowing where you're going. The revision stage don't feel that scary when you already know what you're doing since chapter one.
I've been starting with an outline consistently as of late and I also have no problem deviating from it when a clearer path reveals itself along the way.
In the interview he mentioned using an outline if there is a deadline. The outline can be a useful road map. Sure, if you have time to wander around then you might discover something awesome in the wild. Some just get lost in the wilderness though.
More often than not, I'd rather know where I'm going. The downside is that I have gotten stuck on the outline. Personally I feel that in freestyle mode you run into more potential issues. If you get past a problem during the outline, you'll probably be ok after that but when you freestyle you might fix one issue only to create a brand new problem.
I’d say do whatever works. And if it’s not working then find a different way. The creative process by nature is not the same for everyone, or even project to project.
I’ve gone through an extensive creative writing process that has become a strong outline as far as beginning, middle, and end. So I know the signposts of where I’m heading. As I’ve continued the creative writing process, my outline changes/adapts to what I’m discovering as I go. So it’s been a lot of back and forth. Im not married to it, and expect certain parts to unexpectedly improve as I go further as they have been, but for my project the whole point of the project is where it ends.
I’m guessing if Jack were pressed harder, he’d say that everyone ends up with an outline, that it should be adaptable, but unless you’ve already been doing a lot of writing in your head or on paper, of course you wouldn’t likely start with the outline.
Holy calamity, this is the video I needed right now. I've been stuck in a rut in my writing for weeks because of struggles life has been throwing at me in the last few weeks, and to combat that I latched onto the idea of getting the product out. It's just not how I work as a writer, and I think I lost sight of that.
I think some writers do need an outline. He been writing for so long that he's a genius at it now, but new writers definitely should have one.
I both outline and write in free-flow. What I call an outline is more like brain storming. The ideas often just flow and I have to capture them as they come to me. This is especially helpful in writing a Sci-fi novel with world building and knowing where the end is heading.
On the series I have planned now I will probably keep 75-80 of what I am "outlining" because it includes characters, their backgrounds, settings, cultures and plot points. Sometimes even dialogue comes to me and I end up writing whole conversations.
Maybe I should call what I do a ruff ruff draft with bonus info. I won't start my ruff draft until I know my world/galaxy, and it's inhabitants better.
@@rugr82day good idea
@@avivastudios2311 , so far so good on keeping tract of my world building, which can seem overwhelming at times. After I've completed my loose "outline" of my series I've got a couple of books on writing science fiction that I plan to read before settling in to tackle that 1st book. I just want to make sure things like space travel read as authentic.
Yeah, so the structure is ingrained within his head.
I like how she kept him asking him what he thought about knowing where you're going with an outline. I think it got him to admit that when there's a deadline or money involved then it makes sense to write one. 👍
I got the feeling that the lady doesn't understand what he's saying or she ignores it because her questions don't follow what he's saying, she asks the exact opposite and he needs to explain again.
“You can’t hurry loveee, nooo you just have to waittt” hehe.
It’s all about levels, Jerry! -Cosmo Kramer.
My basic writing starts without an outline. If I want to finish the story I start an outline I can loosely follow.
There are two main problems. One is, can you effectively portray escalation of stakes without an outline? Secondly, can you explore the decisions in a way that portrays themes without knowing exactly what arc you are pursuing? I would say an outline can be creative. And then extra creativity will flow as you carry out the outline.
this guy is great!
and yes u actually do have a good singing voice ! 🤟
Go with the unknown. Yes!
I need an ending. I need a starting point. I need a general idea of how to get from one to the other. I always start at the beginning and it's a straight line. As I write, vague ideas sharpen as I draw near. Outlines for me have never been a thing. But that's me. Same way some people start without a planned finish and I can never write like that.
A pure gardener :)
1:00 👌👌👌
1:55 Golf Analogy - Creative Process
4:45 Outline exceptions
I write very well without the outline.😄
I think it is a balance of starting with an idea, then jumping into just writing - be free and write!
Finish the first draft.
THEN outline: write down your 15 beats, or in other words:
What is your story about?
Answer:
Who?
What?
When?
Where?
Why?
Or the "What happens in each scene that moves the story forward or reveal character?"
If you can not answer the last question, cut the scene with because it's not doing its job.
Don't throw anything out - just put it in a folder that says cut from script, so you can always go back and pull that gem of dialog or action - if you need/want it.
Been teaching for a while and also writing too; both books and screenplays, and this works for me - and also my students: both screenwriters and authors.
Enjoy the journey!
I love a lot of what Mr. Grapes has to say but I've seen a lot of good story ideas go south because they didn't want to outline. You can always step outside the outline while you're writing and explore the ideas within it. That can certainly take you in new directions and change the story for the better but in my experience both writing and reading other people's scripts I find that even though it may be about the journey and not the destination, many journies without destinations can be frustratingly unfocused and pointless.
I personally get some beats or visual moments and I can build a story off of some beats. It's a lot more fun working though the story creatively in real time and go back and tweak it.
I don't really like outlines, it's boring and I always lose interest in my own story.
So I usually keep a general idea of the beginning and the end in my memory and figure the middle on my own. So I write what I have in mind and fill in the blanks as I go. I like to know the characters as I go, and see them create their own conflicts that can converge to interesting points.
I think it's more fun and I can feel the characters' emotions on a deep personal level, which I wouldn't feel if I just coldheartedly and logically outlined every conflict that happens.
But I do keep notes of my characters after I get to know them, and a summary of what happened so far in the story so I dont get lost. I also have to keep track that everything goes accordingly to my main themes in the first place.
There is a downside to it though, as I have to go back to rewrite some stuff and add new details..
I am not organized enough to meticulously write all the plot points and character arcs on a list, I've tried it before. But I do think its necessary to properly know your a story in your head, what you really want to say, what is your message and explore upon it. Otherwise, it may seem all over the place and aimless.
Sounds like he's talking about the idea of destiny vs. carving one's own path by one's choices.
he's right... the worst mistake i made with a story that had so much more potential than it ended up living up to was outlining the entire thing from start to finish rather than allowing it to take its own shape
I'm currently discovering that winging it without an outline will most likely be the way to go with the fantasy story I'm writing right now because I don't exactly know my characters as well as I should, so by not giving myself limitations I can discover their personality better. It's kind of sucky though that I have to scratch some of the scenes that I've already written and love because they no longer fit the story this is turning out to be. Putting them in a file for possible future use somewhere, though, in case the opportunity arises. :)
I feel half-half about this. Initially, I began writing extremely detailed outlines to know exactly where I was going. I felt so beholden to it, though, all creative energy was sapped away by the time I reached the halfway or end point of the story. After awhile of that, I opted NOT to use an outline and just went with the basic concept I wanted to write. The great news is that the story went in turns I didn't expect and felt 'organic'. The bad news? I never finished those stories. The story took so many turns. Because the ending was also nowhere near in sight, I lost my way and felt overwhelmed. I gave myself a break. Then I started to procrastinate. Then I moved on. Basically, I couldn't finish these stories because the ending felt too far away and abstract I lost all motivation to continue.
I see the same damn thing happening to world-renowned George RR Martin. He can't complete his 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series because he likely opened too many doors and can't find his way out of the maze he created for himself. It's no wonder he jumps into other smaller projects. They, at least, give him a sense of closure. I don't think it's enough for writers to simply FEEL their way into a story - to simply EXPERIENCE the process of writing. We also have to reach for a goal, otherwise we'd be drifting further out into the sea with no way back to land.
So yeah. The whole 'don't need an outline' may work for some writers - typically those who are committed to seeing things through and have the discipline AND ability not to feel overwhelmed. For the rest of us, we may need an outline, if only to serve as our anchor. I'm trying to write again. I don't want to feel overwhelmed anymore. Therefore, I'm using an outline. However, I'm going into this with the understanding this outline WILL change as I write and flesh out concepts, characters, and motivations. It's inevitable. I just need to have a basic guide for myself so I don't lose my way again.
Why is this me? 🤣 I am always so excited by a new story, then it takes too long and I loose interest. Then a new story idea comes, and on to the new one I go! It's a vicious cycle.
“ the process “ ,, thank you ,, makes total sense
Now I know I'm not crazy or far from the reality. THANKS!
You may be a gardener. You might like this video - th-cam.com/video/DlGJfhuno6g/w-d-xo.html
I never outline. It always starts with an idea or a dream. I just start and follow my characters and the flow of the story. It always leads me to places and situations I didnt even think about. Sometimes characters die, sometimes they turn out to be something else than what they seemed to be. It even surprises me, so it certainly will surprise the reader even more. When you dont plan to kill a character or put a twist in there, and all of a sudden it pops up to surprise YOU, then you know you are doing something right. Of course it needs to make sense in terms of the story. It always does when it happens to me.
I could never even imagine making an outline and following it. I only go by impulses and ideas.
It surely CAN happen that you have to stop at a certain point, because you dont know where to go next.
What I do: I go back and take a GOOD look around my story and characters, because I know that somewhere is the solution for my question.
I guess many plotters have different instincts when it comes to storytelling.
My mind always produced very elaborate stories, I have seen thousands of movies, I heve read hundrets of books. It really helps building a kind of "blueprint collection" in your mind. Whenever I write, its a wild mix of blueprint bits and pieces that all fit together. I trust my abilities to CREATE. And I love the way. Its always like seeing a movie in my head WHILE it gets filmed. Characters tell you what to write, scenes tell you what to write. The story develops very natural that way.
Its pure joy.
Right on. Let's get out of figuring out some kind of cheat sheet or formulas. A true artist process has best practices to keep in mind there is no short cut to exploring the soul.