IF??? IMHO, no one can afford NOT to have a good bike fit with James or anyone equally as knowledgeable, just look at how much money he saved that lady?
I had knee pain, I thought it was the setback. I moved my seat all the way back and it got fixed but my reach was too long and I got neck pain... After watching this and the saddle height video, I returned my setback to center and reduced 30mm of seat height. All Fixed!!!!
1 James should be a bike fitter for bike fitters, so they understand their mistakes ( on the idea, if you don’t like what you have done, don’t do it to others) 2 He is like a cool Einstein, you can see his brain flooding with information, but he’s mouth cannot cope with the output ( i mean it in a good way, as a compliment ) 3 (Maybe for next bike fit video ) How often should you have your bike fit redone? Work/life style can change your flexibility....I suppose that will affect your position/comfort on the bike. Again, kudos for the content 🤘🏼
As a fitter, i also find that riders tend to self-select a saddle height that is too high and that seems to necessitate a "too far forward" saddle. James would be pretty hilarious with a whiteboard. Love you guys, keep up the great vids.
he would end up looking like a conspiracy nut that needs a red string to connect all of his thoughts. Better to leave it to the skeleton and parts to be the demonstration aids.
You've just described me. It's tempting to keep going higher but it's been a real problem for me. As has too low. After that I paid a fortune for a fit which was a total waste of money.. best way is trial and error
I really never thought my big head might be a cause of numb hands hahahahaha I'll give it a try and set my saddle a little to the back and give it a try
Any chance you could do a video on how to open the hips up with stretching and exercises? As someone over 35 and who sits at a desk all day I feel I need it.
This may be a dumb question but why is my Ergon SR Pro (road) so much more comfortable than my SM Pro ( mountain) in the same size? I spend so much more time seated on the road bike and far less on the mountain bike but I’ve come to really hate my MTB saddle and love the same version on my road bike. Is it…ok? to ride a road saddle on my mtb or is that a big no no??
You should have the saddle as far forward as you can tolerate before too much pressure on your hands, and you should keep your cleats all the way back.
You guys are legends for doing these videos. So informative, so helpful, would also be for the millions of people who don't watch these. Bad positions on bikes are so common, spreading the word on proper bike fit is now more important than ever with the increase in popularity of cycling. Keep up the great work fellas!
@@MrTomCrx Absolutely, I had a vodka for every 'furthermore' - 7 shots. Totally blotto now. Could have chosen 'individual' though, and I'd be in A and E by now. Having said that, it was very interesting and useful (if only to tell me to leave it where it is). I did find this useful for giving potential reasons for shifting, whilst highlighting a couple of good reasons not to.
That is a genius tip to measure saddle setback! Cant believe I never thought of that. I need to get that right on my track bike's tt position to be within the uci rules. Same with the extensions. Definitely going to be using that when I'm next playing around with my position. I'd love to have a fit with James, but being in Dublin and covid (and a broke student ha) is putting a pause on that.
I'm 6'4 on a 60cm cyclocross bike that I use for gravel and road biking... they have slightly different geometry from a strict road bike... I find myself never being able to find a true/perfect position. I'd say my limb lengths, torso lengths are all proportionate (in other words, I'm not 6'4 with long arms/legs short torso, or short legs long torso... I'm proportionate). In order to get full leg extension... I extend my seat post fully at its limit. Maybe 1cm passed it actually. Not only that, but I have to slide my saddle all the way back for a bit more leg extension, and reach (Since if I keep the saddle neutral or forward, I feel cramped up front). I even have a 110mm long stem. The position this puts me in.. gives me a feeling of kicking forward while my femur bones are too close to my torso (which doesn't allow me to put out as much power... although it puts me in a more aero position). Issue is... If I shorten the stem... I'm cramped. If I slide seat foward... I'm cramped. If I slide seat post down... legs don't get extension. I think I've come to the conclusion that my frame just isn't enough for me... Gotta go full road bike, maybe a 61cm. Thoughts from anyone? Looking for all the ideas I can get...
I did the setting saddle at home , here's what I got , wall to saddle nose is 675 and wall to center of bottom bracket is 735 , subtract the two so I get 65mm. NOW HOW TO MEASURE THAT ? 😅 please help me
Thank you Francis, James! Very useful information. May I ask/request episode regarding bike sizing tips? What I mean- I’m 182cm with 86cm inseam(as far as I can understand- short legs, long back AKA sausage as James sad) but running 56 size frame and feel a bit stretched, in one previous video James sad that he runs 53 size frame, can he explain a bit more about it? Thank
7:09 if you are a long torso man like James said "need saddle set back" (for weight distribution i guess) but doesn't it put you in a position too far back for pedalling efficiency cause your legs are short relative to your torso. So you need to a bit more forward than normal not back because you should start fitting by the legs and bb position? Answer please
I'm also that short leg guy, but if you then also have more setback, are your knees then properly aligned with the pedals? My uninformed intuition was that shorter legs require less setback because of knee position? Why is that incorrect?
I’m on the 4th of these bike fit videos trying to make some basic fitting adjustments to my bike but not once has James actually given me any way of measuring and fitting anything. Just keeps telling me why it’s bad if I get it wrong. He’s just selling bike fits.
Very informative video...as are all your videos. After riding in basically the same position for over 30 years I started to develop neck and shoulder pain this year as well it feeling as though my pedaling efficiency suffering a bit. The position I had adopted back in the late 80's/early 90's was based on the Greg LeMond philosophy of bike setup...stretched out, saddle pushed way back, wide bars, etc. That position worked very well for me for a very long time. Being 30+ years older now, I realized that it's pretty ridiculous to think that I can still ride efficiently in that same position. So I'm thinking of moving my saddle forward and most likely up a bit. You mention a 1 to 3 ratio of this relationship. Which way does it work? My thought is that for every 3mm you move forward, you move the saddle up 1mm. Is that correct? Any comment on my overall thinking here? Thanks!
Issue I find myself getting is, I've recently slid my saddle forward and I'm comfortable while riding seated and it just feels right! However, while riding, especially on the Turbo, over-engages my quads and they seem to do all the work in the pedal stroke and my glutes/hamstrings are just there for the ride (literally) after the ride my quads will be toast and will be on fire. I'd maybe touch the saddle back bit by bit but doing this means I have to move myself back on the saddle and feels unnatural.
Awesome Information! Can you do a video on how to level a saddle? I know that there are different types of saddles but it would be great to hear where is your starting point
I don't believe it can be said better. And guys who care about their fit on their bicycles, if you want to achieve 'your' best fit and performance on a bicycle, there is no formula or short cut. In fact, even visiting someone as knowledgeable as James will not get you to the top because each of us only know our own bodies. Dogged trial and error. Almost all don't follow this advice but the only way to know what works best. James didn't touch on the following but also worth mentioning. Saddle to bar drop affects amount of setback you can or can't run which affects hip impingement and of course relates to crankarm length as well. A multi-variant puzzle. To me, it takes years to find a best fit on a bicycle. For those...even tallish riders like me, try shorter cranks if you want a higher RPM, smooth pedal stroke for good sustained power. Owning different bicycles and setting them up differently helps accelerate the process of determining what works best. I am now an old, fit cyclist after decades of experimentation. I am a tallish, longer of leg and run a bit less setback, shorter cranks and not much saddle to handlebar drop to promote an unfettered pedal stroke. Because I am still fit and not overweight, I am not plussed by how much weight I carry on my hands. Lack of hip impingement is more important. I use the drops a lot and can still get my back down but not as much as a younger, more flexible rider who can tolerate more setback resulting in less weight on the hands. Finding Goldilocks is the goal. No substitute for trial and error. A sidebar many don't consider is, the stronger the cyclist you are, the more force you apply to the pedals with each pedal stroke which naturally reduces weight on the hands which allows a bit less setback. There is synergy between strength of a rider and the position they can sustain on the bike. This is why a good cyclist is typically more sore when riding with the wife at 12mph on your roadbike because there is more weight on your hands due to reduced pedal force. People talk about watts all the time but watts can be correlated to pedal force. Watts aka Power = Torque X RPM....Torque = Pedal Force X Crankarm Length. Therefore at a given cadence, the more force you apply to the pedals, the greater power you generate which naturally unweights both hand pressure and saddle pressure...why hard to stay seated at full sprint pulling UP on the handlebar.
My opinion is most professional bike fitters are watching and learning from bfj! If not they should be! James knows his craft and try's to educate. Cheers Francis and James.
Just curious if BikeFitJames would be interested in doing a State of the Watch Collection video. It seems like he is a watch hound and has some good looking timepieces. I love these bike fit videos. They have helped me dial in my position on my bike over the past month. I am doing a pro bike fit next month. Unfortunately, I already have a bunch of bikes so it is too late for the recommended "fit first, buy later" approach. I will be buying a long distance touring bike soon so all the data I get from the fit session will help me order and buy the right damn bike! --Michael
Hey Francis/James can you say anything for those of us with long feet? I'm EU 47 and I'm wondering if that makes it harder to dorsiflex the foot all setbacks being equal. Would moving the saddle back a bit be a viable solution?
So far, during watching bike fit Tuesdays, I’ve had colleagues hear and ask if I was listening to bike info from 1) Thor and 2) Boris Johnson. I thought James might find at least one of those a compliment 😉
Bernard Hinault famously described the feeling of his hands on the bars as like “playing the piano”, that is, just floating on the tops when pedalling moderately hard. I use that to determine the perfect weight distribution, hence the perfect fore and aft. I totally disregard KOPS, but I’m not far off from it.
I wish there was an emoji I could use on here to demonstrate me slapping my forehead with the expression of....I’ve been doing it wrong 😑. There has been a few vlogs on TH-cam of late covering this subject and guys this was without doubt the best explanation to date. No one else has ever mentioned seat posts. Thx.
Thanks for this one Francis and James!. I got into cycling late and had a LOT of hand discomfort until I followed James' advice to lower the saddle. Fore/Aft has been a big question for the last few months
I also just got into cycling. You can also change your stem to shorter and/or more up-raised (+-10* vs. +-0*). Both will have the effect of a slightly more upright position, which will transfer weight from hands to bum. Keep your current stem to try out over time to test your development, and adjust as needed. It's not an expensive swap.
My God James you could be a college professor and teach the art of bike fit for a full semester! I love listening to your bike fit advice! I sometimes wonder how can you know so much? James please take your bike fittings on the road and come to California. I will gladly pay for one of your awesome bike fittings. Even if you didn’t have to change anything on my bike, just listening to you would be worth the price. Then if we went and had a couple beers (pints) at the local bar (pub)and heardJames spew bike talk while intoxicated I would think I died and went to heaven! Keep up the great videos. Next thing you know I am going to start saying “bloody” and “mate” from listening to you guys so much. Thanks guys!
YOU'VE SOLVED MY PROBLEM! I'm 6 feet tall with a long torso and short legs. I was putting my saddle all the way forward because my large bike has so much reach. But in doing so, I had to raise my saddle and ot gave me so much pressure in my shoulders and lower back. Now I can lower my saddle and reduce the stack for my short arms. Thank you.
"Look at yourself. Look at the kind of human that you are and make those changes based on that." I'm the kind of human that is reserved and stoic. So, does that mean I should set my saddle with more fore?
Over the years(many) I’ve tried all sorts of setups but always come back to 15mm setback post, in the middle of the rails, totally flat and totally straight 😀 so dull....
I found that putting the saddle further forward improved power per heartrate. I ride a giant contend ar size L which definitely is on the smallish side- I’m 193cm tall with short legs and long neck and torso. I feel that giant seat angles just are very slack.
I had mine too far back and definitely felt a lack of power which was especially noticeable when pedaling away from a stop. Scooting forward a bit gave me the powerful stroke feeling back, and I think will be easier on my knees too.
Got a question about moving cleats and saddle setback: if you put the cleats towards the mid-foot, should you move the saddle to compensate? Understood that it will need to go down a bit as well.
What are the implications of having a short setback from the BB on a mountain bike as a result of a steep effective seat tube angle? Many manufacturers are now making MTBs with 77-80deg ESAs combined with a longer reach, which would result in a very short setback when compared to road bike fits. This has been done to bias a forwards climbing position on steep uphills for aggressive enduro bikes (i.e. "getting over the BB"), but is now finding its way to more all-round trail and XC bikes. Can it compromise the seating position when riding on flat terrain for extended periods? I haven't seen anyone discussing the tradeoffs.
Personally I've muttered a lot about over the years and reckon it's simply ignored because barely anyone considers pedalling bike fit with regard to saddle position and BB. If they do adjust fore/aft it's usually and incorrectly to adjust reach [buy a bike that fits you in first place] and not to finesse pedalling efficacy/comfort. Firstly droppers appeared and were all inline compared to the previously set back posts that pretty much all bikes came with. This was simply to make them less unreliable, by reducing bending moment on seatpost and had no consideration to of bike fit. Then seat angles were steepened for climbing, again with little consideration of bike fit re saddle/bb. If you want to steepen you seat post angle going up hill. you can simply slide a tad further forward on saddle. I have one of the very few laid back droppers to get a comfy fit.
I've been struggling with this a lot. Thanks to James' videos I've lowered my seat a bit, set my tilt to almost neutral, raised my brake levers a bit and got a shorter stem, my bike feels lovely now but I can't get my seat aft/fore right. I'm a 5ft9 170 lbs male using an L sized frame (mistake, I know) and I have short legs. I've found that setting the seat at the middle makes me overuse my hamstrings, and too far forward kills my quads, so I guess I'll get a proper bike fit soon. My seatpost has that backwards position thing going on too, it's not straight or neutral, which I guess I don't need in a long frame to begin with. It's challenging.
5'6"....inside leg 33.5"....huuuumungous head (63cm).... One road bike is "S" with 531mm ETT, needs a 20mm setback post and an 80mm stem, winter road bike (51 C-T) has a 550mm ETT so had to swap out the 20mm setback post for an inline from a MTB and shorten the stock stem from 100mm to 80mm.... My E-MTB has a silly short reach despite me being smack bang in the middle of the "S" recommended size (Not my usual in between sizes S/M) but as it's got a decent dropper(inline) I've had to just slam the saddle back on the rails! Lucky it's a FS running 2.6" tyres at 22psi so the cantilever effect shouldn't wreck the Ergon saddle....
Another video that totally changes my understanding. I've got very long femurs and a short torso. Was fitted twice and both had a lot of saddle setback. I'd done the usual balance tests but never took it far enough. Now after watching this I wondered just how forward I could get and still not have a bunch of weight on my hands. The answer was all the way forward with an inline post.
Tha'ts very interesting to read. I have the same problem. I'm a medium size person usually, but my legs goes better with a large size. I'm trying with no setback seatpost and things are going better!
Thank you for the info about setback. I’ve got short torso and long legs and arms, and I find I feel best when my saddle is as far forward as possible. I need to try a zero setback seatpost!
I had a Thomson sit tube that has a angle tilted backward (I don’t know the purpose of this, except of getting you really backward). And I had hip + knee pain on my 50+ miles rides. I went back for a standard sit post avec went the furthest I could on my saddle, and all the pain are gone + I feel that my pedal strokes are way stronger
I’d love to get a fit with this guy but being I live in Texas and I’m now over 70, I don’t see that happening 😂 Great information and I really like his explanations and presentation
A bit late to the party, but enduro (MTB) typically has the saddle more forward, as most pedaling is done uphill. This is reflected in modern enduro bicycles having pretty steep seat tube angles.
Oh he’s finally a way of measuring something. It’s in the bonus section. Take two measurements, subtract the two. And then what?! What do you then do with that number? This guys impossible
Would you be able to clear something up. @ 8:13-ish you say riders with a short torso may need to run a setback seat post, but at 8:53 you say riders with a short torso may need an inline seat post. Did I misunderstand? At 5'7.5" with a 32.5" inseam, I'm slightly leggy.
Lots of info in this but I won't lie I have no idea where I should be after watching 😂 feel like he kinda contradicted everything with that tape measure method at the end? Surely that would remove all the personal elements he spoke about. I'm quite a short person so feel like slightly forward is my best bet, I'll give it a go and see how it feels. Is there an obvious sign that certain way doesn't suit you?
Coming from a MTB background for several years prior to getting a road bike, I immediately felt more "natural" with a good amount of saddle set-back. Realized within the first few rides that my initial saddle height was a bit too high; once I took care of that, I've been very comfortable on the bike.
Why did you cut the video right there you said from the front of the saddle to the wall and from bottom bracket to the wall and you will get your set back but when I subtract it what would be the actual figure that's what I wanna know I know I did it once it was like 27 and 28.5 what would it be for this figure ??? Please and thanks
Around 7:12 there's a frame of something cut in... James dressed as a sausage dog? Too Far? :D EDIT: OK I've just been sad enough to watch it frame by frame around that time... BAHAHA! Well played.
These days don't follow this. Years ago most saddles were 270mm in length. These days most saddles are coming out shorter (248mm -250mm etc.) So saddle nose to bottom bracket is way different! If you are converting to a new (shorter) saddle compare the rear of the saddle to BB.
Hard to find videos for us NON-RACERS. I have a cruiser type bike with flat handlebars and I sit pretty much straight up. Having horrendous butt and groin pain right now. I know I need better saddle and I just lowered my seat and moved it forward a smidge. I will try it out tomorrow. I did 68 miles yesterday and the last 15 miles were absolute agony. I am trading in the fat seat for a more narrow one.
I just upgraded my flat pedals from the cheapest Walmart Set. to a $40 pair from a bike shop; Along with the pair of bike shoes. The 1st thing I noticed was my seat needed to go up to compensate for the shoes. But now it feels like I'm riding on my Guch or that bone in between my number 2 and nuts. I feel like that's an indicator my saddle's too far back and could be adjusted a little forward.... What do you think? or I'm open to commentary, I'm new to the hobby. I haven't even completed my 1st year
James: dont move the saddle forward to shorten the reach
Me: FUCK
“What if your saddle is too far forward?”
You’d get a call from UCI.
its never too far forward. just dont slam your stem and your all good. ask obree
One day if I ever get a fit with James I can't wait for him to tell me how all my previous fits were wrong 😂
IF??? IMHO, no one can afford NOT to have a good bike fit with James or anyone equally as knowledgeable, just look at how much money he saved that lady?
James looks like he belongs on a 1930s freighter
Maybe he was planning to go burgle some hamburgers after the filming.. 🤔
I was slow to comment because my saddle was too far away from the keyboard.Also, great video, thanks!
I got a a MASSIVE head....so I guess I need to sit on a pannier rack!!! 😭
I had knee pain, I thought it was the setback. I moved my seat all the way back and it got fixed but my reach was too long and I got neck pain...
After watching this and the saddle height video, I returned my setback to center and reduced 30mm of seat height. All Fixed!!!!
I love coming to this channel every day to hear James tell me that every single fit I've ever had is 100% wrong.
I can listen to this guy lecture about bike fit all day.
Me also, (If he cut out all the ERR...)
Thanks guys, been wanting this episode for ages. 👍 It's become clear over the last couple years that my next frame will be 1 size smaller.
1 James should be a bike fitter for bike fitters, so they understand their mistakes ( on the idea, if you don’t like what you have done, don’t do it to others)
2 He is like a cool Einstein, you can see his brain flooding with information, but he’s mouth cannot cope with the output ( i mean it in a good way, as a compliment )
3 (Maybe for next bike fit video ) How often should you have your bike fit redone? Work/life style can change your flexibility....I suppose that will affect your position/comfort on the bike.
Again, kudos for the content 🤘🏼
2. I thought he'd had a few beers...
@@plantpoweredhealth9383 Einstein ?
As a fitter, i also find that riders tend to self-select a saddle height that is too high and that seems to necessitate a "too far forward" saddle.
James would be pretty hilarious with a whiteboard. Love you guys, keep up the great vids.
he would end up looking like a conspiracy nut that needs a red string to connect all of his thoughts. Better to leave it to the skeleton and parts to be the demonstration aids.
Guilty of this
The white board could be scary! But great!
You've just described me. It's tempting to keep going higher but it's been a real problem for me. As has too low. After that I paid a fortune for a fit which was a total waste of money.. best way is trial and error
and then they never ride on the drops because they don't have the flexibility for the saddle drop
I really never thought my big head might be a cause of numb hands hahahahaha I'll give it a try and set my saddle a little to the back and give it a try
What about the issue with muscle strain (thighs vs hams)? Too far back, sore hams. Too far forward, sore thighs.
As a total amateur, this series has really opened my eyes to all the stuff I've done wrong so far!
...as have we all
Any chance you could do a video on how to open the hips up with stretching and exercises? As someone over 35 and who sits at a desk all day I feel I need it.
Why is this a Francis Channel and not a James Channel?
This may be a dumb question but why is my Ergon SR Pro (road) so much more comfortable than my SM Pro ( mountain) in the same size? I spend so much more time seated on the road bike and far less on the mountain bike but I’ve come to really hate my MTB saddle and love the same version on my road bike. Is it…ok? to ride a road saddle on my mtb or is that a big no no??
Slide it back allll de wayy. Like a ganster.
what's a ganster?
@@Cade_Media they make sausage rolls don’t they?
Might as well replace the saddle with a deck chair
@@Cade_Media gansters paradise... coolio... right? ;-)
@@Cade_Media haha, I think he meant 'gansta'
You should have the saddle as far forward as you can tolerate before too much pressure on your hands, and you should keep your cleats all the way back.
Use a worn out Brooks saddle can’t go wrong😂👍
You guys are legends for doing these videos. So informative, so helpful, would also be for the millions of people who don't watch these. Bad positions on bikes are so common, spreading the word on proper bike fit is now more important than ever with the increase in popularity of cycling. Keep up the great work fellas!
was "furthermore" on james' word of the day calendar the day you shot this?
😂 Came here to say this
@@MrTomCrx Absolutely, I had a vodka for every 'furthermore' - 7 shots. Totally blotto now. Could have chosen 'individual' though, and I'd be in A and E by now. Having said that, it was very interesting and useful (if only to tell me to leave it where it is). I did find this useful for giving potential reasons for shifting, whilst highlighting a couple of good reasons not to.
That is a genius tip to measure saddle setback! Cant believe I never thought of that. I need to get that right on my track bike's tt position to be within the uci rules. Same with the extensions. Definitely going to be using that when I'm next playing around with my position. I'd love to have a fit with James, but being in Dublin and covid (and a broke student ha) is putting a pause on that.
Was anyone able to pause it on the "sausage dog" at 7:12?
I’m guessing there was a ultra fast frame of a sausage dog in there somewhere but it’s too fast for human comprehension. Please tell me I’m right...?
*necroposting* You are =) and this gave me some serious Fight Club vibes. =)
I'm 6'4 on a 60cm cyclocross bike that I use for gravel and road biking... they have slightly different geometry from a strict road bike...
I find myself never being able to find a true/perfect position.
I'd say my limb lengths, torso lengths are all proportionate (in other words, I'm not 6'4 with long arms/legs short torso, or short legs long torso... I'm proportionate).
In order to get full leg extension... I extend my seat post fully at its limit. Maybe 1cm passed it actually.
Not only that, but I have to slide my saddle all the way back for a bit more leg extension, and reach (Since if I keep the saddle neutral or forward, I feel cramped up front).
I even have a 110mm long stem.
The position this puts me in.. gives me a feeling of kicking forward while my femur bones are too close to my torso (which doesn't allow me to put out as much power... although it puts me in a more aero position).
Issue is...
If I shorten the stem... I'm cramped.
If I slide seat foward... I'm cramped.
If I slide seat post down... legs don't get extension.
I think I've come to the conclusion that my frame just isn't enough for me... Gotta go full road bike, maybe a 61cm.
Thoughts from anyone? Looking for all the ideas I can get...
I did the setting saddle at home , here's what I got , wall to saddle nose is 675 and wall to center of bottom bracket is 735 , subtract the two so I get 65mm. NOW HOW TO MEASURE THAT ? 😅
please help me
How do you find a decent bike fitter? Lots of times you see bike fitters saying they've had to correct other bike fitters mistakes 🙈
Thank you Francis, James! Very useful information. May I ask/request episode regarding bike sizing tips? What I mean- I’m 182cm with 86cm inseam(as far as I can understand- short legs, long back AKA sausage as James sad) but running 56 size frame and feel a bit stretched, in one previous video James sad that he runs 53 size frame, can he explain a bit more about it? Thank
7:09 if you are a long torso man like James said "need saddle set back" (for weight distribution i guess) but doesn't it put you in a position too far back for pedalling efficiency cause your legs are short relative to your torso. So you need to a bit more forward than normal not back because you should start fitting by the legs and bb position? Answer please
I'm also that short leg guy, but if you then also have more setback, are your knees then properly aligned with the pedals?
My uninformed intuition was that shorter legs require less setback because of knee position? Why is that incorrect?
Nice Skx on James there, we need to see more of his collection! Also, great explanation on the saddle setback.
is it bike fit everyday on the channel now! loving it
Everyday is Tuesday in Francis' and James' world.
I’m on the 4th of these bike fit videos trying to make some basic fitting adjustments to my bike but not once has James actually given me any way of measuring and fitting anything. Just keeps telling me why it’s bad if I get it wrong. He’s just selling bike fits.
James, looked for this video on purpose today, I am a Michigan based fitter and this helped me so much with a client. Thanks
Very informative video...as are all your videos.
After riding in basically the same position for over 30 years I started to develop neck and shoulder pain this year as well it feeling as though my pedaling efficiency suffering a bit. The position I had adopted back in the late 80's/early 90's was based on the Greg LeMond philosophy of bike setup...stretched out, saddle pushed way back, wide bars, etc. That position worked very well for me for a very long time. Being 30+ years older now, I realized that it's pretty ridiculous to think that I can still ride efficiently in that same position. So I'm thinking of moving my saddle forward and most likely up a bit. You mention a 1 to 3 ratio of this relationship. Which way does it work? My thought is that for every 3mm you move forward, you move the saddle up 1mm. Is that correct? Any comment on my overall thinking here? Thanks!
Issue I find myself getting is, I've recently slid my saddle forward and I'm comfortable while riding seated and it just feels right! However, while riding, especially on the Turbo, over-engages my quads and they seem to do all the work in the pedal stroke and my glutes/hamstrings are just there for the ride (literally) after the ride my quads will be toast and will be on fire. I'd maybe touch the saddle back bit by bit but doing this means I have to move myself back on the saddle and feels unnatural.
Did the same and ended up getting knee pain. Saddle is all the way back and I improved the reach by changing the stem.
Awesome Information! Can you do a video on how to level a saddle? I know that there are different types of saddles but it would be great to hear where is your starting point
I don't believe it can be said better.
And guys who care about their fit on their bicycles, if you want to achieve 'your' best fit and performance on a bicycle, there is no formula or short cut. In fact, even visiting someone as knowledgeable as James will not get you to the top because each of us only know our own bodies. Dogged trial and error. Almost all don't follow this advice but the only way to know what works best.
James didn't touch on the following but also worth mentioning. Saddle to bar drop affects amount of setback you can or can't run which affects hip impingement and of course relates to crankarm length as well. A multi-variant puzzle. To me, it takes years to find a best fit on a bicycle. For those...even tallish riders like me, try shorter cranks if you want a higher RPM, smooth pedal stroke for good sustained power. Owning different bicycles and setting them up differently helps accelerate the process of determining what works best.
I am now an old, fit cyclist after decades of experimentation. I am a tallish, longer of leg and run a bit less setback, shorter cranks and not much saddle to handlebar drop to promote an unfettered pedal stroke. Because I am still fit and not overweight, I am not plussed by how much weight I carry on my hands. Lack of hip impingement is more important. I use the drops a lot and can still get my back down but not as much as a younger, more flexible rider who can tolerate more setback resulting in less weight on the hands. Finding Goldilocks is the goal. No substitute for trial and error.
A sidebar many don't consider is, the stronger the cyclist you are, the more force you apply to the pedals with each pedal stroke which naturally reduces weight on the hands which allows a bit less setback. There is synergy between strength of a rider and the position they can sustain on the bike. This is why a good cyclist is typically more sore when riding with the wife at 12mph on your roadbike because there is more weight on your hands due to reduced pedal force. People talk about watts all the time but watts can be correlated to pedal force. Watts aka Power = Torque X RPM....Torque = Pedal Force X Crankarm Length. Therefore at a given cadence, the more force you apply to the pedals, the greater power you generate which naturally unweights both hand pressure and saddle pressure...why hard to stay seated at full sprint pulling UP on the handlebar.
If one could choose either to be to much back or to much forward what is safer and better is one cant get it totally right?
My opinion is most professional bike fitters are watching and learning from bfj! If not they should be! James knows his craft and try's to educate. Cheers Francis and James.
Just curious if BikeFitJames would be interested in doing a State of the Watch Collection video. It seems like he is a watch hound and has some good looking timepieces.
I love these bike fit videos. They have helped me dial in my position on my bike over the past month. I am doing a pro bike fit next month. Unfortunately, I already have a bunch of bikes so it is too late for the recommended "fit first, buy later" approach.
I will be buying a long distance touring bike soon so all the data I get from the fit session will help me order and buy the right damn bike!
--Michael
@Andrew Dwyer Bond NATO strap too to boot
hell yes!
Someone else noticed! One of his other vids had a speedmaster.
How about the Steve Hogg balance test on Setting the Saddle set back ??
What does he say at the end? place bike against wall and measure from the tip of the saddle to the wall then from wall to BB but then what?..
Hmm I wonder how this works with modern mountain bikes that run much steeper seat tube angles putting you further over the bottom bracket.
Hey Francis/James can you say anything for those of us with long feet? I'm EU 47 and I'm wondering if that makes it harder to dorsiflex the foot all setbacks being equal. Would moving the saddle back a bit be a viable solution?
So far, during watching bike fit Tuesdays, I’ve had colleagues hear and ask if I was listening to bike info from 1) Thor and 2) Boris Johnson. I thought James might find at least one of those a compliment 😉
😂
I love these videos!! I am always learning something new!!
Francis is a savage for the sausage dog clip!
Bernard Hinault famously described the feeling of his hands on the bars as like “playing the piano”, that is, just floating on the tops when pedalling moderately hard. I use that to determine the perfect weight distribution, hence the perfect fore and aft. I totally disregard KOPS, but I’m not far off from it.
I wish there was an emoji I could use on here to demonstrate me slapping my forehead with the expression of....I’ve been doing it wrong 😑. There has been a few vlogs on TH-cam of late covering this subject and guys this was without doubt the best explanation to date. No one else has ever mentioned seat posts. Thx.
🤦🏽♂️
@@Bikefitjames 🤦🤦🤦🤦😂😂😂
Thanks for this one Francis and James!. I got into cycling late and had a LOT of hand discomfort until I followed James' advice to lower the saddle. Fore/Aft has been a big question for the last few months
I also just got into cycling. You can also change your stem to shorter and/or more up-raised (+-10* vs. +-0*). Both will have the effect of a slightly more upright position, which will transfer weight from hands to bum. Keep your current stem to try out over time to test your development, and adjust as needed. It's not an expensive swap.
@@daviddauza I've had my road bike for about two years at this point. I own two handlebars and 4 stems. Nothing felt right until I lowered the saddle.
I have hip impingement and a massive head. Should I just give up lol
My God James you could be a college professor and teach the art of bike fit for a full semester!
I love listening to your bike fit advice!
I sometimes wonder how can you know so much?
James please take your bike fittings on the road and come to California.
I will gladly pay for one of your awesome bike fittings.
Even if you didn’t have to change anything on my bike, just listening to you would be worth the price.
Then if we went and had a couple beers (pints) at the local bar (pub)and heardJames spew bike talk while intoxicated I would think I died and went to heaven!
Keep up the great videos. Next thing you know I am going to start saying “bloody” and “mate” from listening to you guys so much. Thanks guys!
YOU'VE SOLVED MY PROBLEM! I'm 6 feet tall with a long torso and short legs. I was putting my saddle all the way forward because my large bike has so much reach. But in doing so, I had to raise my saddle and ot gave me so much pressure in my shoulders and lower back. Now I can lower my saddle and reduce the stack for my short arms. Thank you.
"Look at yourself. Look at the kind of human that you are and make those changes based on that."
I'm the kind of human that is reserved and stoic. So, does that mean I should set my saddle with more fore?
Over the years(many) I’ve tried all sorts of setups but always come back to 15mm setback post, in the middle of the rails, totally flat and totally straight 😀 so dull....
I found that putting the saddle further forward improved power per heartrate. I ride a giant contend ar size L which definitely is on the smallish side- I’m 193cm tall with short legs and long neck and torso. I feel that giant seat angles just are very slack.
I had mine too far back and definitely felt a lack of power which was especially noticeable when pedaling away from a stop. Scooting forward a bit gave me the powerful stroke feeling back, and I think will be easier on my knees too.
I don't really get that to do with the number I get from deducting?
Got a question about moving cleats and saddle setback: if you put the cleats towards the mid-foot, should you move the saddle to compensate? Understood that it will need to go down a bit as well.
Can we get an UHHHHH counter on the next video?!!
I edit most of them out
Thank you for your channel, BFT & other content simply the best IMO 👌, def my desert island content
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Tuesday, Friday, Tuesday, Sunday ... that's all we wanted
Hey Francis wondering if you could tell me what bike fitting course / system James got trained on?
Lol i have a big head & long torso soooo saddle all the way back for me
What are the implications of having a short setback from the BB on a mountain bike as a result of a steep effective seat tube angle? Many manufacturers are now making MTBs with 77-80deg ESAs combined with a longer reach, which would result in a very short setback when compared to road bike fits. This has been done to bias a forwards climbing position on steep uphills for aggressive enduro bikes (i.e. "getting over the BB"), but is now finding its way to more all-round trail and XC bikes. Can it compromise the seating position when riding on flat terrain for extended periods? I haven't seen anyone discussing the tradeoffs.
Personally I've muttered a lot about over the years and reckon it's simply ignored because barely anyone considers pedalling bike fit with regard to saddle position and BB. If they do adjust fore/aft it's usually and incorrectly to adjust reach [buy a bike that fits you in first place] and not to finesse pedalling efficacy/comfort.
Firstly droppers appeared and were all inline compared to the previously set back posts that pretty much all bikes came with. This was simply to make them less unreliable, by reducing bending moment on seatpost and had no consideration to of bike fit. Then seat angles were steepened for climbing, again with little consideration of bike fit re saddle/bb. If you want to steepen you seat post angle going up hill. you can simply slide a tad further forward on saddle. I have one of the very few laid back droppers to get a comfy fit.
I've been struggling with this a lot. Thanks to James' videos I've lowered my seat a bit, set my tilt to almost neutral, raised my brake levers a bit and got a shorter stem, my bike feels lovely now but I can't get my seat aft/fore right. I'm a 5ft9 170 lbs male using an L sized frame (mistake, I know) and I have short legs. I've found that setting the seat at the middle makes me overuse my hamstrings, and too far forward kills my quads, so I guess I'll get a proper bike fit soon. My seatpost has that backwards position thing going on too, it's not straight or neutral, which I guess I don't need in a long frame to begin with. It's challenging.
LOL who else caught the pic of the dog at 7:13?
Video starts at 9:23
Love these explanation videos. So informative.
5'6"....inside leg 33.5"....huuuumungous head (63cm).... One road bike is "S" with 531mm ETT, needs a 20mm setback post and an 80mm stem, winter road bike (51 C-T) has a 550mm ETT so had to swap out the 20mm setback post for an inline from a MTB and shorten the stock stem from 100mm to 80mm.... My E-MTB has a silly short reach despite me being smack bang in the middle of the "S" recommended size (Not my usual in between sizes S/M) but as it's got a decent dropper(inline) I've had to just slam the saddle back on the rails! Lucky it's a FS running 2.6" tyres at 22psi so the cantilever effect shouldn't wreck the Ergon saddle....
7:13 what was with that dog ? :))
great way of measure saddle seatback
Another video that totally changes my understanding. I've got very long femurs and a short torso. Was fitted twice and both had a lot of saddle setback. I'd done the usual balance tests but never took it far enough. Now after watching this I wondered just how forward I could get and still not have a bunch of weight on my hands. The answer was all the way forward with an inline post.
Tha'ts very interesting to read. I have the same problem. I'm a medium size person usually, but my legs goes better with a large size. I'm trying with no setback seatpost and things are going better!
Thank you for the info about setback. I’ve got short torso and long legs and arms, and I find I feel best when my saddle is as far forward as possible. I need to try a zero setback seatpost!
I am in the same camp. I was thinking about fixing my reach issue with a shorter stem. Glad to know a new seat post is also an option.
I had a Thomson sit tube that has a angle tilted backward (I don’t know the purpose of this, except of getting you really backward). And I had hip + knee pain on my 50+ miles rides. I went back for a standard sit post avec went the furthest I could on my saddle, and all the pain are gone + I feel that my pedal strokes are way stronger
I’d love to get a fit with this guy but being I live in Texas and I’m now over 70, I don’t see that happening 😂
Great information and I really like his explanations and presentation
Bike fit question for James:. Are there differences in position/fit for different disciplines? i.e. road to cross to track to MTB, etc.
A bit late to the party, but enduro (MTB) typically has the saddle more forward, as most pedaling is done uphill. This is reflected in modern enduro bicycles having pretty steep seat tube angles.
my seat doesnt have a fore aft adjust because its a kids bike that im forced to ride because im a suffer from dwarfism what can i do?
Oh he’s finally a way of measuring something. It’s in the bonus section. Take two measurements, subtract the two. And then what?! What do you then do with that number? This guys impossible
Love these recent videos, there are similar online but some conflict with one another, James makes it so clear to the point
Has James started working part-time as a pizza express chef?!
😂😂😂😂
After watching probably 30 or 40 BFT’s the obvious conclusion is go get a pro bike fit from a competent fitter. I did!
Would you be able to clear something up. @ 8:13-ish you say riders with a short torso may need to run a setback seat post, but at 8:53 you say riders with a short torso may need an inline seat post. Did I misunderstand? At 5'7.5" with a 32.5" inseam, I'm slightly leggy.
Huh... long legs with big head...just don't ride? Why push back with a big head?
Lots of info in this but I won't lie I have no idea where I should be after watching 😂 feel like he kinda contradicted everything with that tape measure method at the end? Surely that would remove all the personal elements he spoke about. I'm quite a short person so feel like slightly forward is my best bet, I'll give it a go and see how it feels. Is there an obvious sign that certain way doesn't suit you?
Coming from a MTB background for several years prior to getting a road bike, I immediately felt more "natural" with a good amount of saddle set-back. Realized within the first few rides that my initial saddle height was a bit too high; once I took care of that, I've been very comfortable on the bike.
Having a drinking game, drink for every "furthermore" during Bike Fit Tuesdays. Everyone blacked out
I’m having nightmares about sausage dogs now.
Why did you cut the video right there you said from the front of the saddle to the wall and from bottom bracket to the wall and you will get your set back but when I subtract it what would be the actual figure that's what I wanna know I know I did it once it was like 27 and 28.5 what would it be for this figure ??? Please and thanks
Why use one word when you can speak at such length that you end up struggling to breath? "Furthermore..." lol wtf?
Err, err, err, I, furthermore, err....
Wise words 🔔 end
Around 7:12 there's a frame of something cut in... James dressed as a sausage dog? Too Far? :D
EDIT: OK I've just been sad enough to watch it frame by frame around that time... BAHAHA! Well played.
These days don't follow this. Years ago most saddles were 270mm in length. These days most saddles are coming out shorter (248mm -250mm etc.) So saddle nose to bottom bracket is way different! If you are converting to a new (shorter) saddle compare the rear of the saddle to BB.
Pause @ 7:13 😂
Looking for tips for cyclist with sciatica. Bike position, posture,etc... Need help!! Thanks
Hard to find videos for us NON-RACERS. I have a cruiser type bike with flat handlebars and I sit pretty much straight up. Having horrendous butt and groin pain right now. I know I need better saddle and I just lowered my seat and moved it forward a smidge. I will try it out tomorrow. I did 68 miles yesterday and the last 15 miles were absolute agony. I am trading in the fat seat for a more narrow one.
I just upgraded my flat pedals from the cheapest Walmart Set. to a $40 pair from a bike shop; Along with the pair of bike shoes.
The 1st thing I noticed was my seat needed to go up to compensate for the shoes.
But now it feels like I'm riding on my Guch or that bone in between my number 2 and nuts.
I feel like that's an indicator my saddle's too far back and could be adjusted a little forward.... What do you think? or I'm open to commentary, I'm new to the hobby. I haven't even completed my 1st year