Really good stuff Kevin. Great wisdom does affirm “don’t assume Gods decrees beyond what’s written” You’re exactly right it’s men leaning on their fleshly understanding trying to project things out from God that He never said.
That suit you're wearing in the thumbnail is giving me the feeling that some calvinist is predestined to have their knees whacked. "Leave the Tulip. Take the cannoli."
It's so painfully obvious when you start actually reading the bible with a beginners mind. By asking "what does the bible actually say?" and abandoning anything outside of that.
I’m pretty sure Kevin is reading his preferences into scripture. His interpretation is based on a bizarre logic. The other issue here is: what does Kevin believe about God affirmatively? Does Kevin reject God’s omniscience and sovereignty?
@@PaDutchRunnerThe basic logic here is to assume that one is wrong about everything and establish things without any underlying presuppositions. When you do that, you don't get "predestination to salvation", you get predestination to adoption and predestination to sanctification (being conformed, and to good works). Predestination to salvation may be true, or it may not be true, but it is unsupported by scripture. The starting point is not disbelief, but rather no established beliefs. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the truth claim.
@@markridlen4380 But you can’t abandon the logic of grammar and sentence structure which gives language meaning. You can’t create your own rules of language that conveniently lead you to your desired conclusions!
Yeah I I think you need to read the scriptures probably all the way through from cover to cover at least twice it was some reading comprehension before you start seeing how much there is interconnectivity all throughout scripture not just within individual paragraphs chapters or books. So as children we sit there and we're like oh we just need to know the key verses right that is an infantile view of what is in Scripture and unfortunately we've read that into at least one possibly two generations here in the United States. Now let me address the issue of sovereignty because the idea of sovereignty makes you think of a sovereign a king who has a responsibility to manage a domain. May have the right to issue edicts the king does and the subjects are essentially responsible for doing or performing what the king asked them to do. Now the Kings instructions are not always intensely step-by-step detailed and so the way in which his subjects perform that decree can and definitely will necessarily vary. This is where Calvinists I think gets stuck they they hit their toe on this because they want to believe God is Sovereign they think it protects them from other ideas here arguing with her God is Holy which by the way is another word that I think is abused and overused to the point that it is lost its real meaning in the vernacular. The reality is God does not sit down and program every human being with every instruction on how they do every single thing every day from the time they wake up eat breakfast go to work go throughout their day come home make dinner do things with their families and then how they sleep. God does not do that. If he did we would actually be a lot more like the animals because we would be acting on the instincts that were trained into us and born and bred into us but men and women are not slaves to their instincts emotions or nature. We are impacted by it we certainly are impacted by the consequence of sin not only in our daily lives but in the lives of everything around us in society so you can't really discount that but it doesn't change the fact with the ability to be like him and make decisions to fulfill what his original purpose was for us as his creations. I'm sorry but the sovereignty thing gets used so much and I just I've gotten to the point I laugh because but they don't really think what they mean and what their implications are and two people often mean completely different things when I use certain words but we think we understand each other this is part of the problem I think
@@Veretax I do think we tend to over-emphasize systematic theology at the expense of biblical theology, and I think it’s this hyper emphasis that causes people to look at systems like Calvinism and scratch their heads at times. The text if scripture itself must be regarded - however, this does not delegitimize systematics - it’s just a matter of emphasis. Regarding issues like meticulous sovereignty- we can arrive at this pretty easily by employing some simple logic - perhaps the primary issue is: how did God manipulate history to cause Genesis 3:15 and every other messianic prophecy to be fulfilled in Jesus. One molecule out of place would have jeopardized this plan - this is just one area of observation which confirms classic theology proper of God - that He is unchanging and meticulously sovereign.
@@jeremywolffbrandt7488 Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, at eat, in live forever." If man knows good and evil LIKE GOD DOES total inability can not be true.
Calvinists/Reformed are masters of ignoring. "overlooking", any Scripture that interferes with their beliefs in Jean Cauvin's religion which mirrored his dark, evil heart. They're also masters of twisting the true meaning of words/sentences which with practice leads to the Calvinist seeing everything through Calvinist filters.
That this actually brings up an interesting question because I wonder if they know good and evil is actually not a correct translation. They were told to do what God told them to do and not to do what God told them not to do they had heard what the consequences were and they determined the risks were worth doing it the outcome they expected. I think what it probably really means is they are now aware of what good and evil is and the consequences of it essentially they are no longer innocent with no knowledge of what wrongdoing is. After all somebody who never does wrong will never understand consequences and they may never understand why choosing to not be a wrongdoer might be better does the real frustrating thing is when you look at the story of the garden the garden and that first sin wonder if maybe that was part of God's point in creation all along but Calvinists gloss over this
When you said, "The Bible does not say." I was thinking of the word study I in the process of doing on this. "Which God predestined before the ages to our glory,“1 Corinthians 2:7 LSB. ”Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" Ephesians 1:4 LSB. “In the hope of eternal life, which the God who cannot lie promised from all eternity,” Titus 1:2 LSB. "This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,“ 2 Timothy 1:9 NIV. "Everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.” Revelation 13:8 LSB. The Lord bless and keep you.
the problem in your interpretation is the version you are using "the legacy standard bible" this is a bible translation that came out of Grace Community Church. The interpretation of this version was created by hard core Calvinists. Grace and peace.
@@692MOM Thanks for responding. No “interpretation”. It was a quote. I am very earnest to find God’s interpretation. I posted in LSB, let’s look at NKJV: “Which God ordained before the ages.” I Corinthians 2:7 NKJV, “ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” Ephesians 1:4 NKJV, “promised before time began,” Titus 1:2 NKJV, “written… from the foundation of the world.” Revelation 13:8 NKJV May God bless you.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Predestination is two roads . You choose which road you take . GOD has predestined where each road takes you . GOD does not make the choice for you that is up to you .
How do you interpret 1 Peter 1:2? "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
Is there another video where you explain why your view is right. You never explained why predestination happened at conversion. For your Ephesians verse about being predestined to adoption the previous verse 4 says "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world" and chosen to be holy and blameless (only possible thru Christ). How does the predestination of verse 5 not relate to that. 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, Calvin's arrow should start at God and end at "end times" and should include all that the right arrows have along with "sinner receives Christ" the point of putting a word in front of grace is to be more specific and I guess that would depend on how you define grace if you define grace as undeserved goodness that is extremely broad and qualifying it is helpful. I'll use your view as an example those who receive Christ are predestined to the things you listed, those things are undeserved goodness from God only given to Christian's you could call them Christian grace or graces the gift of life on the other hand is given to all and could be called common grace. Qualifying grace that way would not be wrong or unbiblical because it is true. unless you have a different definition for grace. Did God tell Job that he decreed all the things that happened to him or did Job assume that was the case? Does scripture not specify that God decrees all that happens? Lamentations 3:37-39 Isaiah 45:7 Isaiah 46:10
I'm not a Calvinist at all. However I am trying to see the error in the Wesley quote shown here??? There is nothing that God does not know, either now or in eternity past or eternity future. That is clear from the Bible. So God does foreknow how all people who ever existed, would respond to Him. He knew this for all eternity. What am I and Mr Wesley missing on this point? Great video btw.
Do you think is the best the wise and mature thing to refer to Christian leaders of the past like Wesley as “fools”? I don’t. I watch your videos sometimes and I realize you have low view of systems of belief. I get it. I’m not Arminian or Calvinists. If I was to choose a system I thought was the most Biblical it would be Provisionism. But as I said - I get your point that systems are over done. But Wesley was no fool.
Agreed. I disagree with wesley on a few serious issues but I'm thankful for him and other calvinist, arminian, and whatever other brothers in Christ. When we get to heaven, I don't want to be embarrassed by the way I treated other believers on the internet over their interpretation of scripture.
Who was predestinated? Those whom He foreknew. Whom did He foreknow? Hop over a couple of chapters to Rom 11:1-2. That “golden chain of redemption” is not about us.
Thank you Kevin; I've had a day man... (being a real boy is scary! And different, and for me emotional - more emotional) than I'm used too. (Because I've suppressed my feelings for the last 23 years. Some times it's nice to have a break from thinking about real boy problems and remember how STUPID Calvinism is!😅🤣😂 I hope you get that man... Lol. On a serious note though: Calvinism is a VERY serious problem for those who are trapped (mentally and emotionally in it) Reexamining some of my own views it makes me wonder how much of this Augustinian NONSENSE has held me back from growth without even realizing it? I grew up in a church the was so EXTREMELY opposed to both Calvinism and Arminianism that I never realized how Augustinian... we could really be when examining Rom 6,7,8 Which is probably (1) of many reasons it was so hard to get beyond a propositional or procedural stage of sanctification? 🤔 (thinking)
so I am assuming Kevin doesnt believe in corporate election? i think i understand now. not gonna fight with my provisionist brothers over it as it doesnt take away from God's love for all people. just seeing something i never saw before
We are predestinated to be conformed to Christ. We will not sin in heaven. We will be just like him. I want that more than anything. God wanted us to be perfect, we were created perfect and we destroyed that. God will make us that way again. Romans 8 to me says that. Thats just a practical understanding. And I trust Him to get me what He knows. Its not my understanding, its that book and what it says. Knowledge can lead to anything but the truth. Certainly it can disclose the truth but it can lead the person in all kinds of error.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
when it comes to WHO is saved, it doesnt matter what God "knows". His knowing has NOTHING to do with WHY i am saved. when it comes to salvation, He is only concerned with those that are ALREADY His. He aint lookin at who will be saved, nor is He determining who is saved. His ONLY concern is the welfare of those who are ALREADY His. It is Jesus Christ that was "predestined" to do what He did. now if you are "in Christ" you reap those benefits. so once u are saved, it is THEN that predestination begins for YOU. if i could KNOW which of my children would graduate college, how does that in any way equate to my having predetermined that?
@@lauromartinez8948 i dont see God "deciding" who is born. noe he def knows beforehand, but He doesnt control who is born. if thats true, why do married couples use birth control? now God DID decide that the human race would exist, he created the process by which life goes forth. but YOU decide whether or not a child is born. God created a process and the process says "if two people have sex, then a child will be conceived" God breathes a soul into existence at the time of conception, not before
Calvinists are definitely programmed with scripted responses. Every comment Kevin makes has a ready-made retort from the Calvinist play sheet. The same responses every time from different Calvinists. As if their responses were original and profound.
I even think that asking the question of where it starts May also be a presupposition of its own . For example there are some passages and scriptures that imply the timelessness of God how he existed before our beginning and end. Now in our finite nature we think all that just means God was what he was he born? I don't know that he was born Bible doesn't really speak on that however if God is eternal that means he's Eternal in both past and present directions toward the future and the other idea that I have heard that I think it's worth considering because it makes you realize that just because we read the Bible from front to back doesn't mean God intervened getaway sequentially that would map with past present future in fact he could have done several things simultaneously and we might not have known about it and for this reason I think it is unnecessary to put God in a box Bound by time when clearly time is just a construct that we use to understand cause effect and sequence of past present future.. and when you do that when you remove yourself from those you realize that the reason God can for know is he can see probably all the timeline and in a Quantum mechanic sense he might see all the potential choices we might make and all the potential consequences from all of those choices in such a way that when he does make interventions or nudges people in real life to do certain things that they lead in the direction that he ultimately wants his creation to get to and you can do that without rigorously controlling every decision everybody made because think of just how many decisions that would be the share massive number of the number decisions for every human on earth that could potentially be is so large that it might exceed Infinity it might exceed the largest category of number that we can even imagine this is why God is great because he doesn't Focus on everything he focuses on what's necessary
@@robertdavis3285 if your speaking about the book of life referenced In revelation, as far as im aware we dont have any real exact timing other than sometime between the foundation of the world and the events im revelation
Why the divisiveness at the end? Calling brothers in Christ "NPCs" because they do their best but interpret scripture differently seems to be a clear violation of Paul's exhortation in 1Corinthinans 4:6 to not go "beyond what is written" and being divisive. Ephesians 1 says "He predestined us for adoption" after saysing he, "chose us in him before the creation of the world". I don't see how someone is being an "NPC" for interpreting that to mean predestination to salvation though you can certainly dispute how they get there or what its real meaning is.
Actually, Ephesians 1:5 reads, Ephesians 1:5 NKJV [5] having predestined us to adoption 👉as sons👈 by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Ephesians 1:5 KJV [5] having predestinated us unto the adoption 👉of children👈 by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, The words "as sons" and "of children" are important because they specify what PART of the adoption is being referred to. That PART in Ephesians 1:5 is NOT the adoption, the redemption of our bodies, i.e., glorification from Romans 8:23. Contextually, grammatically, the Greek definition, and cross referencing it with other scriptures all support this fact. Yet, they will tell you differently.
@@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg thanks for the polite yet vigorous reply. That's what I'm getting at. We can disagree on the weight of "as sons" to the meaning without attacking the brother who reads the meaning differently as an unthinking NPC. I'd argue that the "as sons" does not change the meaning from just adoption. The adoption is the same in Galatians 4, Ephesians 1, and Romans 8. We weren't natural sons of the Father as Jesus Christ was, but rather were adopted (saved). My point isn't to argue the technical theology because I am certain I won't convince anyone here that they are wrong (I certainly consider with fear and trembling that I may be wrong). My point is to reduce the vitriol among brothers in Christ all seeking to understand the Word and glorify Christ. It's an important issue, but it shouldn't fall to namecalling.
Funny how you have to be taught “exegesis” and what the passage “says.” If you applied principles of exegesis wouldn’t you come up with exactly the same as they were teaching you? So funny
That would be postdestination. My Bible says from before the foundation of the world. Salvation is of the Lord, do you really think you decide to believe?
I get the “postdestination” comment from people who can’t read (beyond their presuppositions) all the time. “Before the foundation of the world” is associated with election in verse 4, not predestination in verse 5. Conversion is not the destination as you have always presumed. Adoption is the destination, and adoption is the redemption of the body, not conversion (Rom. 8:23). Learn to read what the text actually says.
We don't need a doctrine to take down another doctrine then it's endless schism. Just because one position is opposed to another doesn't mean it's better or right that's the wisdom and philosophy of man masquerading as the wisdom of God.
Kevin, you should REALLY do a video on this guy. Not sure if Baptist history is your thing, but theres SO many things he gets wrong, yet he claims to be a history professor, and is brainwashing the church that hired him. if youd like any info let me know. this guy has no clue about Baptist terminology in the 1800's (or he's lying). but even if he were correct, how is "returning to what we once believed" in any way ok when the people dont understand it? he doesnt even know what a Baptist "presbytery" was, and claims it means a plurality of elders. FALSE! see these videos. th-cam.com/video/QDzOJMsooZA/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/_ar7vGG1pRU/w-d-xo.html
I don't agree with Calvinism's view on predestination but I think you got this wrong too with all due respect. Paul gives us the biggest hint in Romans 9:11 that Isaac and Esau were predestined before they were born. If actions predate predestination, then that would make that verse a faulty one. I think Arminius slightly got it right. Slightly because his view on God's foreknowledge was too myopic. But the reality is that God has predestined all things and all people according to His "perfect" knowledge of all events.
His point is that no one is predestined to be saved or to be in Christ... that there are those who are chosen/elected/predestined for different purposes, but not to be in Christ. And he is correct, there is no scripture that supports that position. Even Ephesians 1 says we are predestined "in Christ"... not "to be in Christ".
@@nealwright5630 Ok that's fair. At least he's not denying the context of predestination. But we have to agree to disagree on your point that predestination "in Christ" isn't in the Bible. God bless you.
@nealwright5630 Are the words "adoption AS SONS" referring to justification/sonship or glorification? Ephesians 1:5 NKJV [5] having predestined us to 👉adoption as sons👈 by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
It makes even more sense when you realize that the whole ‘gates of Heaven and Hell’ thing, as an afterlife destination, is completely misunderstood. That was the one huge difference between Judaism and every other pagan religion at the time. There was no “afterlife”. It was always about the Resurrection of the Dead, when Jesus returns for the Bride. The belief that we are spiritual beings, basically saying we’re already immortal, completely flies in the face of Biblical texts. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden for this very reason. It’s also the reason that Satan and his comrades can’t be saved. Immortality. ”Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever-” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.“ Genesis 3:22-23 ESV The punishment of sin is death. If you are immortal, then you are eternally separated from God. Our mortality is the very reason we can be saved.
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Yearly check in to remind you that you’ve been a source of huge blessing to me and helped me so greatly. Can’t wait to meet one day.
Really good stuff Kevin. Great wisdom does affirm “don’t assume Gods decrees beyond what’s written”
You’re exactly right it’s men leaning on their fleshly understanding trying to project things out from God that He never said.
Great video Kevin and much needed!
Ya! The lights are on, but nobody's home, perfect put
That suit you're wearing in the thumbnail is giving me the feeling that some calvinist is predestined to have their knees whacked.
"Leave the Tulip. Take the cannoli."
Yes and amen.
We are predestined according to the foreknowledge that we would choose Him out of our free will. He draws, we have the option to choose.
Thank you for this!
Glad it was helpful!
It's so painfully obvious when you start actually reading the bible with a beginners mind. By asking "what does the bible actually say?" and abandoning anything outside of that.
I’m pretty sure Kevin is reading his preferences into scripture. His interpretation is based on a bizarre logic.
The other issue here is: what does Kevin believe about God affirmatively? Does Kevin reject God’s omniscience and sovereignty?
@@PaDutchRunnerThe basic logic here is to assume that one is wrong about everything and establish things without any underlying presuppositions. When you do that, you don't get "predestination to salvation", you get predestination to adoption and predestination to sanctification (being conformed, and to good works). Predestination to salvation may be true, or it may not be true, but it is unsupported by scripture. The starting point is not disbelief, but rather no established beliefs. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the truth claim.
@@markridlen4380 But you can’t abandon the logic of grammar and sentence structure which gives language meaning. You can’t create your own rules of language that conveniently lead you to your desired conclusions!
Yeah I I think you need to read the scriptures probably all the way through from cover to cover at least twice it was some reading comprehension before you start seeing how much there is interconnectivity all throughout scripture not just within individual paragraphs chapters or books. So as children we sit there and we're like oh we just need to know the key verses right that is an infantile view of what is in Scripture and unfortunately we've read that into at least one possibly two generations here in the United States.
Now let me address the issue of sovereignty because the idea of sovereignty makes you think of a sovereign a king who has a responsibility to manage a domain. May have the right to issue edicts the king does and the subjects are essentially responsible for doing or performing what the king asked them to do. Now the Kings instructions are not always intensely step-by-step detailed and so the way in which his subjects perform that decree can and definitely will necessarily vary. This is where Calvinists I think gets stuck they they hit their toe on this because they want to believe God is Sovereign they think it protects them from other ideas here arguing with her God is Holy which by the way is another word that I think is abused and overused to the point that it is lost its real meaning in the vernacular. The reality is God does not sit down and program every human being with every instruction on how they do every single thing every day from the time they wake up eat breakfast go to work go throughout their day come home make dinner do things with their families and then how they sleep. God does not do that. If he did we would actually be a lot more like the animals because we would be acting on the instincts that were trained into us and born and bred into us but men and women are not slaves to their instincts emotions or nature. We are impacted by it we certainly are impacted by the consequence of sin not only in our daily lives but in the lives of everything around us in society so you can't really discount that but it doesn't change the fact with the ability to be like him and make decisions to fulfill what his original purpose was for us as his creations. I'm sorry but the sovereignty thing gets used so much and I just I've gotten to the point I laugh because but they don't really think what they mean and what their implications are and two people often mean completely different things when I use certain words but we think we understand each other this is part of the problem I think
@@Veretax I do think we tend to over-emphasize systematic theology at the expense of biblical theology, and I think it’s this hyper emphasis that causes people to look at systems like Calvinism and scratch their heads at times. The text if scripture itself must be regarded - however, this does not delegitimize systematics - it’s just a matter of emphasis. Regarding issues like meticulous sovereignty- we can arrive at this pretty easily by employing some simple logic - perhaps the primary issue is: how did God manipulate history to cause Genesis 3:15 and every other messianic prophecy to be fulfilled in Jesus. One molecule out of place would have jeopardized this plan - this is just one area of observation which confirms classic theology proper of God - that He is unchanging and meticulously sovereign.
Kevin help. Why doesn't Genesis 3:22 cause any problems for calvinists (reformed) guys when it says after the fall God said they know good and evil.
they avoid it.
Why would it cause problems?
@@jeremywolffbrandt7488 Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, at eat, in live forever."
If man knows good and evil LIKE GOD DOES total inability can not be true.
Calvinists/Reformed are masters of ignoring. "overlooking", any Scripture that interferes with their beliefs in Jean Cauvin's religion which mirrored his dark, evil heart. They're also masters of twisting the true meaning of words/sentences which with practice leads to the Calvinist seeing everything through Calvinist filters.
That this actually brings up an interesting question because I wonder if they know good and evil is actually not a correct translation. They were told to do what God told them to do and not to do what God told them not to do they had heard what the consequences were and they determined the risks were worth doing it the outcome they expected. I think what it probably really means is they are now aware of what good and evil is and the consequences of it essentially they are no longer innocent with no knowledge of what wrongdoing is. After all somebody who never does wrong will never understand consequences and they may never understand why choosing to not be a wrongdoer might be better does the real frustrating thing is when you look at the story of the garden the garden and that first sin wonder if maybe that was part of God's point in creation all along but Calvinists gloss over this
Many thanks
When you said, "The Bible does not say." I was thinking of the word study I in the process of doing on this. "Which God predestined before the ages to our glory,“1 Corinthians 2:7 LSB. ”Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" Ephesians 1:4 LSB. “In the hope of eternal life, which the God who cannot lie promised from all eternity,” Titus 1:2 LSB. "This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,“ 2 Timothy 1:9 NIV. "Everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.” Revelation 13:8 LSB. The Lord bless and keep you.
the problem in your interpretation is the version you are using "the legacy standard bible" this is a bible translation that came out of Grace Community Church. The interpretation of this version was created by hard core Calvinists. Grace and peace.
@@692MOM Thanks for responding. No “interpretation”. It was a quote. I am very earnest to find God’s interpretation.
I posted in LSB, let’s look at NKJV:
“Which God ordained before the ages.” I Corinthians 2:7 NKJV, “ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” Ephesians 1:4 NKJV, “promised before time began,” Titus 1:2 NKJV, “written… from the foundation of the world.” Revelation 13:8 NKJV
May God bless you.
Where would someone with your understanding fellowship in freedom from Calvinism, Arminianism, Provisinism, etc?
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Great text. Pro tip: it talks about OT saints ("...those...He also glorified").
@@eusuntaici *It's actually talking about a certain class of OT saints.*
I see this as you best work, what are Christian s without a sound foundation? What is the result of that? We are encouraged, admonished to press on
Before the foundation of the world
Amen
No Predestination.
Predestination is two roads .
You choose which road you take .
GOD has predestined where each road takes you .
GOD does not make the choice for you that is up to you .
How do you interpret 1 Peter 1:2?
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
Calvinists are definitely like NPCs in a video game.
Is there another video where you explain why your view is right. You never explained why predestination happened at conversion.
For your Ephesians verse about being predestined to adoption the previous verse 4 says "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world" and chosen to be holy and blameless (only possible thru Christ). How does the predestination of verse 5 not relate to that.
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Calvin's arrow should start at God and end at "end times" and should include all that the right arrows have along with "sinner receives Christ"
the point of putting a word in front of grace is to be more specific and I guess that would depend on how you define grace if you define grace as undeserved goodness that is extremely broad and qualifying it is helpful. I'll use your view as an example those who receive Christ are predestined to the things you listed, those things are undeserved goodness from God only given to Christian's you could call them Christian grace or graces the gift of life on the other hand is given to all and could be called common grace. Qualifying grace that way would not be wrong or unbiblical because it is true. unless you have a different definition for grace.
Did God tell Job that he decreed all the things that happened to him or did Job assume that was the case?
Does scripture not specify that God decrees all that happens?
Lamentations 3:37-39
Isaiah 45:7
Isaiah 46:10
I'm not a Calvinist at all. However I am trying to see the error in the Wesley quote shown here??? There is nothing that God does not know, either now or in eternity past or eternity future. That is clear from the Bible. So God does foreknow how all people who ever existed, would respond to Him. He knew this for all eternity. What am I and Mr Wesley missing on this point?
Great video btw.
Hey Kevin, can you make video about questions we could ask Calvinists that could help deconstruct calvinism?
Have you seen this video?
Calvinist Ideologue Part 1
th-cam.com/video/5wOwMsfYkeA/w-d-xo.html
And here’s part 2:
Calvinist Ideologue Part 2
th-cam.com/video/obuKi1x29VU/w-d-xo.html
Do you think is the best the wise and mature thing to refer to Christian leaders of the past like Wesley as “fools”? I don’t. I watch your videos sometimes and I realize you have low view of systems of belief. I get it. I’m not Arminian or Calvinists. If I was to choose a system I thought was the most Biblical it would be Provisionism. But as I said - I get your point that systems are over done. But Wesley was no fool.
Agreed. I disagree with wesley on a few serious issues but I'm thankful for him and other calvinist, arminian, and whatever other brothers in Christ. When we get to heaven, I don't want to be embarrassed by the way I treated other believers on the internet over their interpretation of scripture.
Who was predestinated? Those whom He foreknew. Whom did He foreknow? Hop over a couple of chapters to Rom 11:1-2. That “golden chain of redemption” is not about us.
Thank you Kevin;
I've had a day man... (being a real boy is scary! And different, and for me emotional - more emotional) than I'm used too. (Because I've suppressed my feelings for the last 23 years.
Some times it's nice to have a break from thinking about real boy problems and remember how STUPID Calvinism is!😅🤣😂
I hope you get that man... Lol.
On a serious note though:
Calvinism is a VERY serious problem for those who are trapped (mentally and emotionally in it)
Reexamining some of my own views it makes me wonder how much of this Augustinian NONSENSE has held me back from growth without even realizing it?
I grew up in a church the was so EXTREMELY opposed to both Calvinism and Arminianism that I never realized how Augustinian... we could really be when examining Rom 6,7,8
Which is probably (1) of many reasons it was so hard to get beyond a propositional or procedural stage of sanctification?
🤔 (thinking)
Can you break down Jack Hibbs sermon Good, Good Sovereignty?
Yes, for $150 per hour of labor.
@@KevinThompson1611 Sign me up for 4 hours, then. JK. I wish I had that money to support you.
so I am assuming Kevin doesnt believe in corporate election? i think i understand now. not gonna fight with my provisionist brothers over it as it doesnt take away from God's love for all people. just seeing something i never saw before
Corporate election retains the Calvinist premise that election is about salvation.
@@KevinThompson1611 agreed
" just seeing something i never saw before" this should be a red flag
@@maryscheel8564 so do u wanna elaborate as to what u mean??
@@maryscheel8564 There is a difference between "seeing something I never saw before" and 'Hearing a teaching that has never been taught before"
We are predestinated to be conformed to Christ. We will not sin in heaven. We will be just like him. I want that more than anything.
God wanted us to be perfect, we were created perfect and we destroyed that. God will make us that way again. Romans 8 to me says that. Thats just a practical understanding. And I trust Him to get me what He knows. Its not my understanding, its that book and what it says. Knowledge can lead to anything but the truth. Certainly it can disclose the truth but it can lead the person in all kinds of error.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
If God knows who will be saved before they are born, then they are in a way pre destined to be saved.
when it comes to WHO is saved, it doesnt matter what God "knows". His knowing has NOTHING to do with WHY i am saved. when it comes to salvation, He is only concerned with those that are ALREADY His. He aint lookin at who will be saved, nor is He determining who is saved. His ONLY concern is the welfare of those who are ALREADY His. It is Jesus Christ that was "predestined" to do what He did. now if you are "in Christ" you reap those benefits. so once u are saved, it is THEN that predestination begins for YOU. if i could KNOW which of my children would graduate college, how does that in any way equate to my having predetermined that?
No. See London baptist confession chapter 3 paragraph 2.
@@caman171 except God is the one who decides who will be born right ?
So it does matter what God knows.
no, foreknown.
@@lauromartinez8948 i dont see God "deciding" who is born. noe he def knows beforehand, but He doesnt control who is born. if thats true, why do married couples use birth control? now God DID decide that the human race would exist, he created the process by which life goes forth. but YOU decide whether or not a child is born. God created a process and the process says "if two people have sex, then a child will be conceived" God breathes a soul into existence at the time of conception, not before
Calvinists are definitely programmed with scripted responses. Every comment Kevin makes has a ready-made retort from the Calvinist play sheet. The same responses every time from different Calvinists. As if their responses were original and profound.
When does Predestination start? Genesis 1: 31. Every thing after Genesis 2 is making it perfect again.
I even think that asking the question of where it starts May also be a presupposition of its own . For example there are some passages and scriptures that imply the timelessness of God how he existed before our beginning and end. Now in our finite nature we think all that just means God was what he was he born? I don't know that he was born Bible doesn't really speak on that however if God is eternal that means he's Eternal in both past and present directions toward the future and the other idea that I have heard that I think it's worth considering because it makes you realize that just because we read the Bible from front to back doesn't mean God intervened getaway sequentially that would map with past present future in fact he could have done several things simultaneously and we might not have known about it and for this reason I think it is unnecessary to put God in a box Bound by time when clearly time is just a construct that we use to understand cause effect and sequence of past present future.. and when you do that when you remove yourself from those you realize that the reason God can for know is he can see probably all the timeline and in a Quantum mechanic sense he might see all the potential choices we might make and all the potential consequences from all of those choices in such a way that when he does make interventions or nudges people in real life to do certain things that they lead in the direction that he ultimately wants his creation to get to and you can do that without rigorously controlling every decision everybody made because think of just how many decisions that would be the share massive number of the number decisions for every human on earth that could potentially be is so large that it might exceed Infinity it might exceed the largest category of number that we can even imagine this is why God is great because he doesn't Focus on everything he focuses on what's necessary
Do you believe the Book of Life was written before the foundation of the world?
Hi Robert! Im not sure there is any verse about names being written before the foundation of the world. What are you referring to?
@jeremiahgarcia4228 concerning the "book of life" .......whose names are written in the book of life and when are they written in?
@@RobertD-jg3fc as far as im aware theres atleast two “books of life”
Are you talking about revelation 13:8 ?
@@jeremiahgarcia4228 whose names are in the book of life and when were/are they written in the book of life.
@@robertdavis3285 if your speaking about the book of life referenced In revelation, as far as im aware we dont have any real exact timing other than sometime between the foundation of the world and the events im revelation
Why the divisiveness at the end? Calling brothers in Christ "NPCs" because they do their best but interpret scripture differently seems to be a clear violation of Paul's exhortation in 1Corinthinans 4:6 to not go "beyond what is written" and being divisive. Ephesians 1 says "He predestined us for adoption" after saysing he, "chose us in him before the creation of the world". I don't see how someone is being an "NPC" for interpreting that to mean predestination to salvation though you can certainly dispute how they get there or what its real meaning is.
Actually, Ephesians 1:5 reads,
Ephesians 1:5 NKJV
[5] having predestined us to adoption 👉as sons👈 by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Ephesians 1:5 KJV
[5] having predestinated us unto the adoption 👉of children👈 by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
The words "as sons" and "of children" are important because they specify what PART of the adoption is being referred to. That PART in Ephesians 1:5 is NOT the adoption, the redemption of our bodies, i.e., glorification from Romans 8:23. Contextually, grammatically, the Greek definition, and cross referencing it with other scriptures all support this fact.
Yet, they will tell you differently.
@@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg thanks for the polite yet vigorous reply. That's what I'm getting at. We can disagree on the weight of "as sons" to the meaning without attacking the brother who reads the meaning differently as an unthinking NPC.
I'd argue that the "as sons" does not change the meaning from just adoption. The adoption is the same in Galatians 4, Ephesians 1, and Romans 8. We weren't natural sons of the Father as Jesus Christ was, but rather were adopted (saved).
My point isn't to argue the technical theology because I am certain I won't convince anyone here that they are wrong (I certainly consider with fear and trembling that I may be wrong). My point is to reduce the vitriol among brothers in Christ all seeking to understand the Word and glorify Christ. It's an important issue, but it shouldn't fall to namecalling.
Funny how you have to be taught “exegesis” and what the passage “says.” If you applied principles of exegesis wouldn’t you come up with exactly the same as they were teaching you?
So funny
Where was the biblical proof of your position you promised?
That would be postdestination. My Bible says from before the foundation of the world. Salvation is of the Lord, do you really think you decide to believe?
I get the “postdestination” comment from people who can’t read (beyond their presuppositions) all the time.
“Before the foundation of the world” is associated with election in verse 4, not predestination in verse 5.
Conversion is not the destination as you have always presumed. Adoption is the destination, and adoption is the redemption of the body, not conversion (Rom. 8:23).
Learn to read what the text actually says.
Watch the full version of the video:
PREDESTINATION Revisited
th-cam.com/users/liveJcMg9I8TnGc?feature=share
Also see…
ELECTION: It's Nothing Like You Were Told
th-cam.com/video/S0TUH60Cd78/w-d-xo.html
We don't need a doctrine to take down another doctrine then it's endless schism. Just because one position is opposed to another doesn't mean it's better or right that's the wisdom and philosophy of man masquerading as the wisdom of God.
Kevin, you should REALLY do a video on this guy. Not sure if Baptist history is your thing, but theres SO many things he gets wrong, yet he claims to be a history professor, and is brainwashing the church that hired him. if youd like any info let me know. this guy has no clue about Baptist terminology in the 1800's (or he's lying). but even if he were correct, how is "returning to what we once believed" in any way ok when the people dont understand it? he doesnt even know what a Baptist "presbytery" was, and claims it means a plurality of elders. FALSE! see these videos.
th-cam.com/video/QDzOJMsooZA/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/_ar7vGG1pRU/w-d-xo.html
I don't agree with Calvinism's view on predestination but I think you got this wrong too with all due respect. Paul gives us the biggest hint in Romans 9:11 that Isaac and Esau were predestined before they were born. If actions predate predestination, then that would make that verse a faulty one.
I think Arminius slightly got it right. Slightly because his view on God's foreknowledge was too myopic. But the reality is that God has predestined all things and all people according to His "perfect" knowledge of all events.
His point is that no one is predestined to be saved or to be in Christ... that there are those who are chosen/elected/predestined for different purposes, but not to be in Christ. And he is correct, there is no scripture that supports that position. Even Ephesians 1 says we are predestined "in Christ"... not "to be in Christ".
@@nealwright5630 Ok that's fair. At least he's not denying the context of predestination. But we have to agree to disagree on your point that predestination "in Christ" isn't in the Bible. God bless you.
@nealwright5630 Are the words "adoption AS SONS" referring to justification/sonship or glorification?
Ephesians 1:5 NKJV
[5] having predestined us to 👉adoption as sons👈 by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
@@fidelamoah9115 I didn't make that point. Predestination "in Christ" is absolutely in the Bible. It's the destiny of those who are "in Christ".
Romans 8:29 makes it clear that God "foreknew" (knew before hand) something about those that he predestined. What do you think it is that he foreknew?
It makes even more sense when you realize that the whole ‘gates of Heaven and Hell’ thing, as an afterlife destination, is completely misunderstood. That was the one huge difference between Judaism and every other pagan religion at the time. There was no “afterlife”. It was always about the Resurrection of the Dead, when Jesus returns for the Bride. The belief that we are spiritual beings, basically saying we’re already immortal, completely flies in the face of Biblical texts. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden for this very reason. It’s also the reason that Satan and his comrades can’t be saved. Immortality.
”Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever-” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.“
Genesis 3:22-23 ESV
The punishment of sin is death. If you are immortal, then you are eternally separated from God. Our mortality is the very reason we can be saved.
Nobody really cares about this topic
Speak for yourself
No one is forcing you to watch.