I hope you enjoyed that video. How do you feel about grammar rules and punctuation? Are you a Strident Defender or a Bringer of CHAOS? If you want some behind the scenes from this video, make sure to subscribe to our newsletter: www.answerinprogress.com/newsletter
I support tossing punctuation to the wind in order to provoke thought about the true intended meaning behind phrases like “eat a grape in the forest it is cold”
The only useful use of the ; is when separating lists that have commas in the items. For example: Chicago, Illinois; Dallas, Texas; and Washington, D.C.
Tone is definitely a purpose of modern punctuation, but as someone who is starting to learn other languages I have to also point out that it also helps just make something readable at all. Things like the space and breaking things into paragraphs (two things that don't appear in all language's writing systems) helps the eyes and brain from being overwhelmed, and terminators to a lesser degree do the same thing, allowing faster reading. It should also be noted that conveying the information more accurately regardless of tone is also a thing, but I think your ending statement about clarifying with the person you're talking to is usually good enough outside of tense, large group, or other hard to clarify in situations. As for if I'm in the defender or the chaos faction ... probably neither/both? It depends on the context but usually it is pointless to write like they teach you in English classes. Rather, it can even be counterproductive to follow all the rules they taught you. But I don't think it all needs to be burned to the ground, just reworked for better use in formal settings and mostly ignored for non-formal settings. You can probably guess from my writing style but I'm also somewhere in the middle in how I actually write.
@@moron0000 To be fair to Peter (the guy with over 100% confidence), I cut out the reasoning behind his confidence. He's worked as a Chinese-English translator, Spanish-English translator, and a librarian. He gave just about every possible "standard" use of the semicolon I could find - including the wink emoticon. He just knows that he knows an unusual amount about the semicolon.
Exactly! I am shocked that she did a video like this. I would easily give 100% understanding to the usage of semicolons, but even more shocking was that then she asked about the role of punctuation as if this was not obvious too... as if there weren't thousands of examples where punctuation clears up confusion about the meaning of sentences etc., as if this entire discussion was on the level of the first year of elementary school, not on the level of an adult, educated person she is. I think part of the problem is that some people try to describe everything by fixed rules. Same thing with composing music. Does a true composer follow some "rules of chord progression"? Obviously no! They compose music by ear and feeling, and the rules follow from this, not the other way round. Have trouble with punctuation or semicolons? then read about it, find and understand examples, read lots of examples, and then it will not be "hard to use". I expected to learn something from this video, but did not apart from the fact that some people find something hard to use or confusing. Neither interesting nor useful.
@@Maciej-Komosinski you don't think it's interesting that people that speak and read a language for their entire life, and still aren't sure how to use a fairly common part of it? We have different ideas if what's interesting, I guess.
@@SimonBuchanNz I didn't find this interesting because I knew it, and I think everybody who sees the world around them knows it. I also know that there are lots of people who find grammar rules confusing, orthography rules confusing, driving rules confusing, etc., etc., and they still make errors. I wouldn't find videos about these facts interesting or useful.
I was taught that is that if you feel like using a colon is appropriate, but it reads more like a comma, that's the place. This comment is an excellent example.
When in doubt, 95% of the time, the semicolon can be substituted for another punctuation mark, such as the comma or dash. For the other 5%, make sure that that's really the best way to cast your sentence.
It's funny how in most programming languages semicolon is the primary terminator (end of a line of code); while period is a primary separator (namespaces, object-tree paths etc.).
I think they did that because they started running out of symbols Commas were used to separate the arguments, so it'd be hard to differentiate splitting arguments with splitting namespaces if it was used for both Or I dunno, ease of parsing or something.
@@GyroCannon I actually looked this up and one plausible answer I found is that '.' is also used for decimal numbers which are obviously very common in programming and in early programming languages trying to distinguish the two could be tricky. It sure would be a lot more intuitive for new coders if the grammar of programming were more similar to regular grammar though.
@@grenien4109 The real humor of bringing JavaScript into it is that JavaScript actually doesn't require semicolons at the end of every line. Java, C++, C#, etc do, but JS has a feature where if you leave the semicolon off it will try to infer that there was supposed to be one there. (It mostly gets it right, although you occasionally have to be more explicit and include them yourself)
Hi! Spanish speaker here. I wanted to emphasize that literacy is so extended that knowing what each punctuation sign means is more important than most vocabulary. The rules are not as important as the structure. "For example," and "For example:" are two different structures. The first feels more like natural language while the second is more structured and it looks like there is a list after it or a very logical sentence. I use semicolon when I want to say many facts in a line (I borrowed it from programming languages like Java or JS) For example: Roses are red; Violets are blue; Wololo; Roses are too;
In your example, semicolons are used in place of commas when a list item has a comma. Similar to alternating between parentheses and brackets when nesting items, in math. Imagine a list of cities or counties, and their states: Orange County, Virginia; Orange County, New Jersey; and Orange County, California.
a. thats not the kind of degree he has b. and even if he did, words ≠ punctuation. punctuation is entirely artificial and only exists in text. nobody says " i have a dollar comma but its in quarters"
@@Matty002 except point 2 is wrong, speech has punctuation in it, for example you pause after a sentence. Speech came before writing. A full stop just indicates that pause in speech.
The semicolon has two uses. 1. Instead of a full stop when you just can't bring yourself to let the previous sentence die a natural death. 2. When you don't know the first thing about punctuation but still feel there's some blackspace missing.
"The semicolon has two uses: 1) Instead of a fullstop when you can't let your sentence die a natural death; 2) When you don't know the first thing about punctuation but still feel there's some blackspace missing." (This comment was funny when I thought of it but now that I've typed it out I feel like I've been possessed by the spirit of an absolute asshole... ;-; )
I personally use semicolons a lot; as someone that gets off-track easily and always remembers an additional point mid sentence, I find that it makes extemporaneous writing more coherent than it is in my head.
Have you researched the dash? It seems to unfortunately be falling out of fashion as well (making some things extremely hard to read when it's overloaded with commas) but what you described sounds more like the job of the dash. Semicolons are fairly elegant; they can mark a restatement, explanation, or other logical connection that could have been stated as a conjunction (which could fit what you said). Dashes are stronger semicolons; they're for more disjoint, interrupting, less grammatical additions to a sentence - and it's not beyond me to find a way to throw one in here. ;) (and then, just for anyone curious, the most extreme is the parenthesis: when something technically isn't part of the thought, but you still want to say it at that time.)
I use semicolons a lot; spent a full week learning how to use them in like 5th grade. None of my teachers have told me I’m using them wrong, so I assume I’m fine. Huzzah
I asked my teacher once when i was in middle school and he basically said it can replace the word "and" so now i just use it for that purpose when i think my sentence is running on.
@@perperperpen I mean, regular commas also replace "and". that's just so we don't have to say "A and B and C and D" but spoken language came up before written language, so commas, somicolons and periods are all just there to add pauses with different lengths. we first learn to speak "A B C and D" and then learn to add punctuation to better communicate the natural speech speed: "A, B, C and D" (it's almost 2 AM here sorry if nothing I say makes sense)
@@charlonecruz4376 well, they aren't *necessary*; they just add another layer of nuance to the language. you can totally write an entire book only using commas and periods and your writing likely wouldn't be hurt in the slightest
"The purpose of language"... Oh, that is an interesting topic. Probably to manipulate other individuals (not necessarily in a bad way) to produce behaviours beneficial to you. Though there also might also be an internal cognitive usage, but you get a chicken and egg problem there. But I'm an evolutionary biologist, and I suspect you were thinking more poetically ;)
"Problem is, when someone dumb enough not to know how to write properly, others need to 'dumbify' themselves to be able to understand that person, which reduces the intelectual conversation level, sometimes even creating bigger confusions, caused by misinterpretation." - Someone smarter
As a writer, I've come to learn the sad general rule for semi-colons: don't use them. Most of the time they can be replaced by a comma or other punctuation. A trend that has been increasing for the last century is to use an em dash -- instead. However, I still use them when I can afford to, which is rare.
I only use semicolons when programming or writing maths. I used to use a long dash when I was in school, as that's how we were taught to interrupt conversational quotes to add information in a story. Now I just end quotes and use a comma. My native language is Spanish but using English online so much has changed the way I use punctuation in all languages (with exceptions where the rules are too different).
@@NoNameAtAll2The en dash is a single dash ‘-‘ while the em dash is two of those ‘-‘. n is the length of the first while m signifies the double length of the latter
I think it's a bit weird that Sabrina didn't actually explain how to use a semi colon in the video but, just to clarify, it's not grammatically correct to exchange a comma and a semi colon. A comma (in this context) seperates two linked ideas when one is a main clause and one is a subordinate clause. For example: It was sunny, so I played soccer. Here, the main clause is 'it was sunny,' which is a full sentence that can be said by itself. On the other hand 'so I played soccer,' is a subordinate clause because it cannot be said by itself. The sentence 'so I played soccer,' though it can obviously be used in conversation, is not a grammatically correct sentence and treating it as such can cause confusion. On the other hand, a semi colon connects two ideas that are linked but that are both full sentences by themselves. For example: It was sunny; I played soccer. In this example, both phrases are full clauses by themselves, which is why a semi-colon can be used. A more suitable fix to a semi-colon is either using a period (It was sunny. I played soccer.) or a conjunction like and (It was sunny and I played soccer.) Using a comma here (It was sunny, I played soccer), is a comma splice, which is where someone uses a comma to connect two main clauses
Well, the original use was to separate connected independent clauses (things that can exist as individual sentences). Something like: "My tea is getting cold. I should boil some more water" works just as well with a semicolon: "My tea is getting cold; I should boil some more water". So, "I need something less than a period to connect these thoughts" would be a bit more apt.
@@frogstereighteeng5499 What I find interesting is that we often do this in spoken language but I rarely see semicolons in closed captioning/subtitles. I wonder if that's because it can confuse the meaning of what they're saying; It's probably easier to use a period instead anyways.
@@frogstereighteeng5499 still, it feels so dirty using the ; because I know I know to little to not get slugters by gramer natzy, and ; makes it looks like I know what i'm doing when im writing :P but yeah totally agree on the way u use it
I really love semicolons; when I'm writing connected ideas, periods often make it feel like there is a disconnect between two clauses, while a comma indicates that the two clauses together form one idea. A semicolon indicates that they are two related ideas that inform each other, but in which they are separable to form coherent thoughts.
This is probably closest to my preferred ideal. But I daren't when trying to impress upon people with far more power than I have the importance of my ideas. Don't want to piss them off with my grammar. (And, as she notes, it's dealing with laws).
@@garretmh not necessarily: the second clause can be informing the first. It adds a poetic lilt to the transition between the clauses, the metaphor to the colon's simile; I tend to think of the way Tolkien uses them in Lord of the Rings as a good example.
I don’t do that, but I do leave out the period in informal messages consisting of one sentence because the absence of a question mark or an exclamation point implies a period
The purpose of punctuation is to eliminate structural ambiguity. While punctuation is most frequently used to impose a cadence, the semicolon is almost never used that way. It is almost exclusively used to conjoin elements of differing hierarchies. It is probably the least ambiguous of all the conjunctions. People are just confused because it's almost never used.
I love that language is fluid and ever changing! The "Internet grammar" stuff is a great example. Like, saying "wha??¿?" To convey extreme confusion/dumbfoundedness, or raNdOm cApitAlisaTion to create a sarcastic/mocking tone, or PURELY CAPS TO EMPHASISE A POINT OR EXPRESS EXCITEMENT/ANGER!!! Heck, even "!!1!!1!!!111!" Is its own thing, again usually a mocking recount of somebody else's comments. The list goes on and on. None of it is ""grammatically correct"" but it sure is expressive and fun and clearly communicates an idea!
Sometimes I'd just write a sentence without any commas emphasizing that my thoughts are fast-paced and go one after another making it into an indistinguishable confusing blob of text. Actually, punctuation is kind of a form of science in its own, which is very fascinating to me.
Gotta love Tom Scott (with his linguistics degree) "I'm confident I know how to use a semi-colon", rates confidence at 50% while everyone else was 70-80
If you know a little about a topic, you over judge your knowledge. If you know a lot about a topic, you understand how complex it is and the many things you have left to learn.
this is an interesting thing, where if you know alot about a topic, you will think you know less about it, and someone who knows a little about it, will insist they know alot
@@The_Red_Scare The Dunning-Kruger Effect states that people who are weak in a topic over estimate their abilities and people who are knowledgeable in a topic under estimate it. However, it's not so extreme. Someone who is weak at a test might think they got a 65% when in fact they got a 50%. Meanwhile someone who got a 100% might think they got a 95%. The Dunning-Kruger Effect is rounding error in a direction, not stupid people assuming they are smart. Ironically you knowing something about the Dunning-Kruger Effect, but not tons about it is a perfect example of this, that you'd misunderstand it in an exaggerated way, assuming the effect is larger than it is. If Tom Scott gives a 50% then odds are high he was never taught the semicolon in class, regardless of his degree.
@@NicoEm ironically, I get a similar thing but with word choice. I am at my most eloquent and pithy when just following my brain. When I try to spice things up, it normally just isn't quite right.
100% confident in my semicolon use at the end of almost every line of code I write in C. I think this video suggests that a video on the proper use of "fewer" vs "less" and "bring" vs "take" and "upload" vs "download" and similarly often confused words would be a successful video.. "you're probably not using these words correctly"
I'm Indonesian and an English major graduate. I once wrote an entire paper discussing about semicolons in a poem by e.e. cummings. And I STILL have no idea how to use a semicolon.
A question mark is a great argument for punctuation not being elitist. It allows you to abbreviate your questions without changing your meaning. The text "coming back" has a completely different meaning than "coming back?", but without a question mark, it would have to be phrased "I am coming back" or "will you be coming back", respectively.
I feel like this overlooks a critical aspect of written language; writing is not simply a tool for two-way communication, but also for one-way information delivery. Yes, when you're having a conversation with someone and they don't have perfect grammar, you can ask them for clarification. However, if you're writing a novel, your readers can't, or won't, ask you what you meant if your writing is obtuse. They will either soldier on in confusion or stop reading altogether. So I'd agree that we shouldn't be obnoxious about grammar in informal settings, in a two-way format, but if you are writing for an audience with limited means for the audience to communicate with you, it is paramount that you are familiar with the rules and adhere to them as closely as possible, unless you are intentionally breaking the rules for some narrative or thematic reasons.
I would argue that, in such a case, clarification isn’t strictly necessary. As you said, most people will just move on after encountering a weirdly phrased sentence. I doubt anyone out there would actually dwell for too long on something as insignificant as a misplaced semicolon, let alone just stop reading altogether. At the very worst, they’ll assume you made a typo and move on. On a separate note, what “rules” are writers supposed to be familiar with? Are you trying to imply that there’s some high council out there, deciding which ways to write and spell are right or wrong? If there was one, who exactly would be enforcing those rules? As you said, the purpose of language is to convey information. If a certain sentence breaks the so-called rules of language, but still effectively and clearly conveys the intended message, then how exactly is that sentence “wrong”?
@@zargdestroyerofworlds5580 good language rules exist not to prescribe language, but to describe it. If you as an author want to communicate effectively and clearly, and if you are unsure about a certain punctuation mark, that doesn't mean nobody else knows about it either. So to communicate with the people who do know that mark, you should follow the established convention. No high council, just popular consensus described succinctly.
Not to be that guy, but I'm _pretty_ sure the semicolon you used should've just been a colon. Not that it hurts what you're trying to say; I'm just being pedantic.
@@zargdestroyerofworlds5580 Sometimes punctuation is vital to understanding the intention of the author. There's a meme example floating around out there about the sentence "A woman without her man is nothing." Depending on how you punctuate it, you can make the sentence say that: A) a woman is nothing without her man or B) men are nothing without women. Readers can often draw clues from context to infer what the author intended, but not always. Authors can also rephrase their sentences to improve clarity, even without punctuation (like in my A&B paraphrasing above). However, if the tools are available, why not use them?
@@Ck87JF and I find this conversation very English-centred as well, in a lot of languages minor grammar mistakes completely change the meaning of a sentence (specifically languages with cases). Sure, in English missing a comma once in a while doesn't necessarily ruin the whole sentence, but we can't really go in the extreme direction of "write however you want" either. Otherwise each person could come up with their own grammar rules and their own words and no one would understand each other. The purpose of language is to communicate, so some rules are necessary (although they don't need to be made up by a council, generally people understand the rules intuitively).
It helps knowing that: 1- It’s stronger than a comma but not as strong as a dot. 2- When you have two different ideas in a long sentence, instead of putting a comma, you could use a semicolon.
in our class in italian we use it when you finish a phrase but the next phrase you start continues with the same topic as the first one; you use the period/dot when the next phrase changes topics.
The big problem with ambiguity is when two people read a sentence differently with neither of them realising there’s ambiguity there and that’s where we really need punctuation.
Reminds me of every time I run across the word "bemused" and don't know if it's being used for "confused" (its lexical meaning) or "amused" (a relatively new meaning, as I understand it), and not knowing the distinction makes me either bemused or just annoyed. The thing about the "rules", for me, is that they further communication; if they get in the way, they need to change or be ignored. Communication becomes most crucial in legal documents and medical documents, which is where the rules should be most strictly adhered to; in less crucial writing, it's not a big deal until you convey a meaning strongly at odds with the one you intended to convey. Or when you create a road bump for people who were previously immersed in your story then ran across an obviously mistaken word, one easily corrected in their head (they knew what you meant) but still an error that pushes the reader out of the story.
But if your only means of communication is the written text, like with YT comments, having a text with *no* punctuation is very hard to read, and asking for a little explanation is likely going to get you just another blob of unintelligible text. I don't mind an occasional grammatical mistake, I make enough of those myself, but some effort is required.
I think there's a fine line between policing and the other person just needing to learn a bit more proper grammar.. i think understanding their vs they're, or it's vs its is an important part of grammar and can confuse the reader if not used correctly. But on the other hand, i find that people who insist on putting a period after the end of their last sentence, or capitalising the first letter of a message/comment can be a bit too full of themselves or annoying (not everyone of course). sometimes I think people use "correct" grammar to show their 'superiority', and that's what I don't like
To give an example, very often when people get into a discussion online, you'll notice one person suddenly starts to type with 100% correct punctuation/grammar on purpose, and i think they do it because they think it makes them look smarter Scenario: A: i think having this might be a good idea because ... B: No. That's a terrible idea. It will never work. To me, person B just gives off this aggressive vibe and looking down on person A But maybe it's just me, i haven't really encountered someone who agrees with me yet xd
@@MrBsehratmaannking i know people who type like that on texts and i'm pretty sure it's more of a personal preference than anything else, but then again, i purposefully avoid people who're full of themselves so... dunno
I have a degree in English, with an emphasis in writing. I took Advanced Grammar--it was the hardest class I took! My professor said, "People who learn English as a second language go home and cry at night!" I've never forgotten that! lol Keep up the good work!
Not really. The whole business model of Grammarly is built on selling people the ability to be perfect at grammar. Whereas this video's whole purpose is to deconstruct the very assumption that "proper grammar" exists. I don't think Grammarly would appreciate having their service invalidated.
Sure, but that's why you need proper grammar and punctuation...just to make sure you don't express a completely different thing than what you actually mean
All throughout highschool and now college I've used the semicolon. I've used it in so many ways, ways that were probably incorrect. And no matter it was APs or not, never got marked down. I just used it confidently and in a way that was consistent with my style and tone, I think that's why no reader or teacher ever thought to second guess my ;. It's so much fun; really, i just love how it makes a sentence flow.
Something important to recognize here is what a style guide (these being the things that lay out punctuation rules) actually is. A style guide is a set of standards to ensure that across a publication with multiple writers, all the content has a cohesive structure and feel. There are multiple style guides, all competing, all with subtly different recommendations, some more popular than others, but all that ultimately matters is that, should you need a particularly high degree of consistency for whatever reason (*and you might not*), you pick some standard, any standard, and stick with it. While we're at it, dictionaries are a record of words as they are used and spelt, not instructions for use. Sure, keep citing it if you get into a debate about words for whatever reason, but keep in mind its limitations.
Style guides are also often adopted by specific fields/disciplines to *facilitate* conversation, and basically make it so people in said fields/disciplines know where to look in the text for certain things, and not get lost in the formatting. Sometimes, as the need demands, authors can even give their own spin on the style because the guides aren't always complete and comprehensive, or context changes (the APA Style Guide's recent shifts are an example of that). In those cases, new editions can be released if a huge segment of the authors using said style guide does a certain practice, anyway. (or sometimes they do it just to make everyone's lives easier) But they are, as you said, *guides* , not laws.
add it at where you are supposed if you are writing in java or c# wouldn't throw an error. ignoring it wouldn't either. correct me if i'm wrong, only used it for 3 projects.
Honestly? Something "we're all pretty confident we know how to use, but we're all operating under slightly different sets of rules" is a good summary of how language works in general.
@@zutaca2825 // If you're comparing strings, you should use a dedicated function for that, unless you use javascript but that's lame //Also, if statements are overrated. It should be like this: void (*funcArr[2]) (void) = {&passClass, &failClass}; int i = 1*(strcmp(major, "stem") == 0); (*funcArr[i])();
I think one of the problems is that, thanks to manuals of style, no-one is ever allowed to write a sentence that could benefit from a semicolon without being corrected for a run-on anyway.
I had a student I was tutoring who was marked down for every sentence using a semi-colon; the teacher claimed they were run-ons. Only one of them actually was. I finally had to tell her "Look, change them to periods so you pass the class, but just be aware that your professor is absolutely wrong in this case." I'm starting to think it's not that WE don't know how to use them --- it's that the "experts" don't.
I grew to develop a fascination for semicolons in high school and used them a lot during those years and even in college. Language is so fun to learn and dive into.
I'm a copy editor and proofreader, and found this and Taha's video really interesting. I totally agree with many of your points. Language is evolving all the time. My take on grammar and punctuation rules is that they are there to serve us, not the other way around - they are standards and guidelines we can use to help us get our ideas across to others clearly. If there were no such rules, it would probably be very difficult for people to understand others' written expression. The other important aspect to all of this is audience: who is the writing for? Is it for your friends, your colleagues, people throughout your country, people who speak your language in all countries? That will obviously affect how and what you write - if you follow the generally accepted grammar and punctuation standards, more people will be able to access your ideas.
THANK YOU OMG! I blitzed by this comment while trying to find out where the hell else I knew that music from, but what you wrote stuck with me for three more pages of non-answer comments until AHHA THATS IT JAPAN ABROAD! and my head exploded. Thank you for clearing that up; now I have to clean this up.
I use semicolons in a few cases, like when I'm making a list with a sub-list, with multiple things, or with commas; when I need to separate that list from the listing of the sub-list; and when I realize that's the only time I use semicolons.
In 5th grade, our teacher thought us the semi-colon; we all thought it looked so cool in our writing. We started using it everywhere: in our fiction writing, where we used it in every sentence; in our non-fiction writing, where we used it in every heading; and even in our maths, where in the “explain your answer” section, we used it religiously. The teacher started to get really agitated; our writing was now barely intelligible just so we could cram in as much semi-colons as possible. So she had to ban all semi-colons from our writing, tests, and even us talking or mentioning the semi-colon. Once we went into the next grade and we could use the semi-colon again, and since then, everyone can’t go a word without using one; that includes me writing this comment; oh.
I've always thought of semicolons as a tool for fixing comma splices. Whenever you run across a comma splice in your writing, just swap in a semicolon for the comma, and you're golden.
@Juts It’s when two sentences are joined together with a comma instead of being separated with a period. Comma splices are considered grammatically incorrect.
I've taught English grammar and in my gut I felt attacked by this video, but in my heart AND in my brain I know how right you are. I think there's value is teaching grammar, as long as the approach and purpose is made clear: those in power will use any reason at all to ignore those with less power, so learning to communicate clearly and, sometimes, in the "proper mainstream language" is a great skill to have. I also think understanding English grammar reveals some of its flaws, which ALWAYS leads to really interesting conversation and critical thinking. All that being said, there is a lot of room in education for change - there's no reason why the default has to be what it's always been.
For some reason I tend to use a semi colon to link sentences, when I don't want to use "and". I hate using a colon. OMG I submitted a short story with it being the third most used punctuation.
i got marked down 5% for ending two sentences with prepositions in one of essays and i nearly wrote an email to my professor explaining to her why prescriptive grammar is garbage it made me so angry
Prescriptive grammar is fine and good... It has its place,and that was the right context for it. The problem is that, for English, many of the Rules are nonsense. Because they're not English rules. Their either badly repurposed latin or complete fabrications. Descriptivism absolutely has its place, it is Exactly what linguists should employ when studying languages. It is also the discipline that should be employed when determining what the rules of a language actually are, and should rightly be used to destroy any argument that some particular rule must be followed when said rule is utter nonsense. Once the discipline of linguistics developed enough to debunk the erronius garbage put about by the ignorant twits who set the prescribed rules based on nothing more than an assumption that, having written a book and had the money to get it published (and similar,equally useless credentials), they could not possibly be incorrect, then linguistis were Absolutely right to do so. They didn't, not really, they just decried prescriptivism in general as a great evil and gave ideological rabble rouses another stick to use on those who dared to make sensible counter arguments, while the Generally ignorant masses, having internalized the idea that prescriptivism is Inherently evil, are more likely to go along with it (no matter how logically inconsistent and flat out Wrong the claim in question may be. Calling someone a prescriptivist achieves about the same effect asking when they stopped beating their wife, useful argument wise.) On the other hand, Descriptivism has absolutely No Place in the class room. Well, not when it comes to teaching proper grammar and the like. Because the classroom is specifically Supposed to be teaching standard or formal English. You know, the sort you use when you want to be understood by someone who's Not from the same socioeconomic back ground, small geographic area, technical field, and/or generation. Because the goal is Clear Communication. That said, there are a lot of things that people claim are "rules" that absolutely belong in a style guide and not in a grammar... And some of those style guides should then be rounded up and burned. They are that awful. TL;DR: the problem isn't Perscriptivism, it's that somewhere along the way setting the system on fire became more ideologically acceptable than error checking. Because apparently telling a kid that negating their sentences improperly makes them hard to understand is oppressive... Or possibly rewriting the rules to actually reflect reality (like every other field of science does) was too much like hard work and it was easier to just pretend there aren't any.
@@laurencefraser yes, thank you, I'm so tired of hearing "these few rules are latin-based garbage, therefore GRAMMAR IS BULLSHIT, DO WHATEVER YOU WANT" (including in this video)
@@laurencefraser Agreed. Many people who like to use ACHUWAL LUGWISSSTS to back up their anti-prescriptivist tirades often forget that one branch of linguistics is the study of register--the way people talk and write appropriate to the context. No linguist worth his or her salt is going to back someone up trying to argue why they shouldn't be fired or shouldn't get marked down on a paper for using colloquialisms perfectly acceptable between friends, but severely frowned upon or outright banned in the workplace or schools. To give an example, I had a colleague years and years ago who was heavily criticized by our school board for his use of plain-form and colloquial Japanese with our bosses and supervisors. _Shiagattoru_ this and _jatta_ that is fine with your friends, but positively verboten in the workplace. _Desu_ and _Masu_ only, there, and a little keigo with the big wigs goes a long way.
Many people who complain about sentences ending with prepositions often fail to correctly distinguish prepositions from adverbs; many words can take on either role. For example, in the phrase "Turn on the light", "on" does not function as a preposition. Instead, it acts as a modifier to clarify the sense of the verb "turn". Compare that to an expression like "turn on a dime", wherein "on" is actually being used as a preposition. In other news... in spite "on" and "off" being opposites, and in spite "come" and "go" also being opposites, "come on" and "go off" can at times mean the same thing! For example, the lights on a police car may come on at the same time its siren goes off.
I rarely ever use semicolons - I've come to use the em dash far more, as I do throughout this comment. It's a very versatile punctuation mark - as you can see, it even works to separate thoughts within a sentence, kind of like parentheses - although it isn't naturally found on a keyboard. On a Windows machine like mine, it's entered by holding down the Alt key while entering the numbers 0151 on the 10-key pad. So there you go - that's why I like to use the em dash.
The thing that stuck out the most about this video to me is the fact that that Kurt Vonnegut quote could be rewritten, quite legibly, with a semicolon. "Do not use semicolons; all they do is show you've been to college." SUCK ON THAT, VONNEGUT!
You almost had me convinced to give up proper punctuation until you mentioned interpreting laws. I hadn’t thought of that, but it is an excellent reason to practice proper punctuation on a daily basis. If we all just assume that someone else will keep track of, it won’t be long before that knowledge is lost from the public mind and nobody can check if laws are being interpreted correctly. I may be coming from a skewed viewpoint here as I am an engineer and most of the reading and writing I do is to communicate clearly and concisely, leaving no room for ambiguity or misunderstanding. I will absolutely add three more sentences that don’t flow and don’t form a solid conclusion just so I can be sure the information was communicated clearly. Maybe I’m just salty because I grew up typing two spaces at the end of my sentences and by the time I got to college, the teacher was taking points off my papers for using two spaces after a period. If we’re going to spend years teaching kids the rules, why is anyone allowed to change them? Well I guess I better wrap this up because it is well past my bed time and I can tell I’m ranting
It's interesting that the whole video is set up to conclude with "as literacy went broader, those rules become important," yet it ends with "Rules are boring, write whatever and ask if the other site can't use basic grammar."
This brings me back to my Norwegian classes. In Norway every dialect is considered "correct" and "official", but that does NOT apply to writing. I was always terribly confused in class and my grades suffered. And by the way, Norway has two official Norwegian languages that you have to learn; and neither really match what i speak
In my mind, punctuation is used to clarify intent, tone and inflection. The question mark and exclamation point are obvious examples of this, however things like commas can help with introducing sometimes crucial pauses into your sentences. For example, the Oxford comma, whose existence can easily clarify the intent of the sentence. The semicolon is definitely lesser-used than others, but it does indeed have a use. Standardization and clear rules make every use of these punctuations consistent; think of the ambiguity of some tone indicators like /hj. Using punctuation properly also enforces professionalism, like how you wouldn't shorten "you're" to "ur" when filling out a job application, for example. The texting culture can misuse these all it wants, but standardization should still be kept for professional language, so that intent is always clear and not subject to change based on trends.
my very intense feelings about prescriptive grammar as someone who learnt english as third language summarised in one video under 15 mins,,, thanks you for this!
I always love to say this to my friends "I will English however I want as long as your English agrees with my English" Language is just for communication, having so many rules and saying there's no room for fun mistakes really is plain old boring!
They don't. English has a past tense, and a not-past tense. The former is null-marked, the latter has a suffix. It then has a pile of aspects and moods that, like every other language, get mashed together in a pile with those tenses and spat out in various combinations. The aspects have names, the moods have names, and the most common combinations have names. Far as I can tell, most European languages took the names from latin when they had one that worked the same as a latin, and then either copied their neighbours or just flat out made things up for the rest. From what I recall, the only really confusing names for English aspects are the perfect vs the perfective. In that one of those is super common in other languages, but English doesn't use it much, and the other is used a lot in English, has some overlap, but isn't the same thing.
@@laurencefraser You're certainly correct. I just think it's interesting how you can catergorise all language into aspects and moods and tenses, when to native speakers it's just... natural. I say this as someone grappling with the frightening regularity of Latin- you can't exactly transpose the imperfect subjunctive onto your own language when you use it instinctively. Or maybe I'm just not mathsy enough to see the patterns when they're right in front of my nose (also, check the description of this video).
The fundamental problem is that language is linear, while knowledge is fractal-like. So no matter how you write, you're always trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
For those talking about semicolons in programming, they were initially used in a similar way than in natural language, as a separator. When you wanted to put more than one statement in one line you would put a semicolon between them. The newline was the actual terminator so putting a semicolon at the end of only one statement was just redundant, but many people did it anyway and later other languages started using it as a statement terminator, one of those being C.
That's almost correct! There are other uses for semicolons but using one in place of the word "because" is one possible use. Basically a semicolon can be used to connect two clauses which grammatically should be separate sentences and turn them into one sentence. The word "because" can do that too, though "because" has additional meaning, saying that the second clause is the reason for the first. For for example: "I like boats; my sister likes trains." is a correct usage of a semicolon, but it's closer to meaning "I like boats and my sister likes trains" rather than "I like boats because my sister likes trains"
And the secondary main use of the semicolon (which I did not see anyone mention) is to separate items in a list; items which themselves contain commas. Examples of fruits are apples, pears, and oranges. Examples of foods are fruits, like apples, pears, and oranges; vegetables, like carrots, potatoes, or lettuce; and grains, such as wheat and rice.
English at school was very frustrating. We were forced to use at least one of each form of punctuation (yes, including ellipses) to get full marks. Agh! Glad I'm doing STEM now 😅
Wow, just thinking of an old video of yours where you defended new slang terms like fleek and twerk, and looking at how the video production just got better. As always, I am in awe of the skill y'all have at AIP.
my understanding just from experience, not from any explicit teaching, is that colons and semicolons both separate two iterations of the same thing, but colons go down in abstraction and semicolons stay the same or go up in abstraction. So I might write "It was an efficient mode of transport: a train." The colon follows an abstract idea and is followed by a concrete example. I might also write "it was an efficient mode of transport; a quick means to an end." The semicolon follows a relatively concrete idea, and is followed by an abstraction of that idea.
I hope you enjoyed that video. How do you feel about grammar rules and punctuation? Are you a Strident Defender or a Bringer of CHAOS?
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I love your videos and the English language/ Grammer has always been complicated too many damn rules LOL
I support tossing punctuation to the wind in order to provoke thought about the true intended meaning behind phrases like “eat a grape in the forest it is cold”
The only useful use of the ; is when separating lists that have commas in the items. For example: Chicago, Illinois; Dallas, Texas; and Washington, D.C.
chaos,,
simply Chaos
Tone is definitely a purpose of modern punctuation, but as someone who is starting to learn other languages I have to also point out that it also helps just make something readable at all. Things like the space and breaking things into paragraphs (two things that don't appear in all language's writing systems) helps the eyes and brain from being overwhelmed, and terminators to a lesser degree do the same thing, allowing faster reading. It should also be noted that conveying the information more accurately regardless of tone is also a thing, but I think your ending statement about clarifying with the person you're talking to is usually good enough outside of tense, large group, or other hard to clarify in situations.
As for if I'm in the defender or the chaos faction ... probably neither/both? It depends on the context but usually it is pointless to write like they teach you in English classes. Rather, it can even be counterproductive to follow all the rules they taught you. But I don't think it all needs to be burned to the ground, just reworked for better use in formal settings and mostly ignored for non-formal settings. You can probably guess from my writing style but I'm also somewhere in the middle in how I actually write.
The fact that Tom Scott is 50% sure about his use of the semi-colon leaves me with no hope regarding my personal use of it.
Same here man
It should do the opposite. Use it how ;; ever you like.
@@swiftdragonrider true
@@moron0000 To be fair to Peter (the guy with over 100% confidence), I cut out the reasoning behind his confidence. He's worked as a Chinese-English translator, Spanish-English translator, and a librarian. He gave just about every possible "standard" use of the semicolon I could find - including the wink emoticon. He just knows that he knows an unusual amount about the semicolon.
@@answerinprogress as a spanish - english translation student soon to graduate, this fills me with confidence
I thought that the semicolon was supposed to precede a closing parenthesis ;)
That was great
*golf clap*
I betcha didn't know you can also have a colon precede an uppercase o. :O
**wink* *wink**
10/10
Semicolons are easy to use; the most critical part is not caring about official grammar, but rather flow and readability
Exactly! I am shocked that she did a video like this. I would easily give 100% understanding to the usage of semicolons, but even more shocking was that then she asked about the role of punctuation as if this was not obvious too... as if there weren't thousands of examples where punctuation clears up confusion about the meaning of sentences etc., as if this entire discussion was on the level of the first year of elementary school, not on the level of an adult, educated person she is.
I think part of the problem is that some people try to describe everything by fixed rules. Same thing with composing music. Does a true composer follow some "rules of chord progression"? Obviously no! They compose music by ear and feeling, and the rules follow from this, not the other way round.
Have trouble with punctuation or semicolons? then read about it, find and understand examples, read lots of examples, and then it will not be "hard to use". I expected to learn something from this video, but did not apart from the fact that some people find something hard to use or confusing. Neither interesting nor useful.
I see what you did there
@@Maciej-Komosinski you don't think it's interesting that people that speak and read a language for their entire life, and still aren't sure how to use a fairly common part of it? We have different ideas if what's interesting, I guess.
@@SimonBuchanNz I didn't find this interesting because I knew it, and I think everybody who sees the world around them knows it. I also know that there are lots of people who find grammar rules confusing, orthography rules confusing, driving rules confusing, etc., etc., and they still make errors. I wouldn't find videos about these facts interesting or useful.
@@Maciej-Komosinski then I think it's interesting that you think that apparently most people "don't see the world around them"!
The tip is not to think hard about semicolons; it's to intuitively feel it.
Ahhhh, you sly fox, I see what you did there!
I was taught that is that if you feel like using a colon is appropriate, but it reads more like a comma, that's the place.
This comment is an excellent example.
It took me 3 times reading over to realize what had been done here; it felt so natural of a sentence
@@BananaRamaa Jeez louis, it genuinely took ME 3 TRIES TO SEE THE SEMICOLON YOU GUYS HAVE TO STOP BEING SO SMOOT WITH IT HOLYLORD-
When in doubt, 95% of the time, the semicolon can be substituted for another punctuation mark, such as the comma or dash. For the other 5%, make sure that that's really the best way to cast your sentence.
It's funny how in most programming languages semicolon is the primary terminator (end of a line of code);
while period is a primary separator (namespaces, object-tree paths etc.).
Depends what language you're looking at. Erlang uses the period like C uses the semicolon. Lisp uses only whitespace as separator for everything.
@@SaHaRaSquad We don't talk about Lisp here. It's for the better. You know, to avoid bloodshed and such.
I think they did that because they started running out of symbols
Commas were used to separate the arguments, so it'd be hard to differentiate splitting arguments with splitting namespaces if it was used for both
Or I dunno, ease of parsing or something.
@@GyroCannon I actually looked this up and one plausible answer I found is that '.' is also used for decimal numbers which are obviously very common in programming and in early programming languages trying to distinguish the two could be tricky. It sure would be a lot more intuitive for new coders if the grammar of programming were more similar to regular grammar though.
Fantastic observation, Fabian T!
I love that Tom (an actual linguist) gave himself the lowest confidence percentage.
Reverse dunning krueger
is he a linguist? i thought he just enthustiant
@@sodiboo ah what a twist, it seemed to me he was the classic IT/engineer guy with a love for knowledge and culture
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Yup, he knew that he wasn’t certain. Unlike the others.
Just put it at the end of every line, duh;
this->is_why(we).have[punctuation];
Yeah, that's what I was going to say!
Is that a java joke ? If it's a java joke, then I understand it.
@@thsand5032 also javascript and a bunch of other programming languages I think
@@grenien4109 The real humor of bringing JavaScript into it is that JavaScript actually doesn't require semicolons at the end of every line. Java, C++, C#, etc do, but JS has a feature where if you leave the semicolon off it will try to infer that there was supposed to be one there. (It mostly gets it right, although you occasionally have to be more explicit and include them yourself)
Hi! Spanish speaker here. I wanted to emphasize that literacy is so extended that knowing what each punctuation sign means is more important than most vocabulary. The rules are not as important as the structure. "For example," and "For example:" are two different structures. The first feels more like natural language while the second is more structured and it looks like there is a list after it or a very logical sentence.
I use semicolon when I want to say many facts in a line (I borrowed it from programming languages like Java or JS)
For example: Roses are red; Violets are blue; Wololo; Roses are too;
Beautiful poem
In your example, semicolons are used in place of commas when a list item has a comma. Similar to alternating between parentheses and brackets when nesting items, in math. Imagine a list of cities or counties, and their states: Orange County, Virginia; Orange County, New Jersey; and Orange County, California.
@@JV-pu8kx Yes, that is a correct use too
oh to be a humanist in the 15th century inventing punctuation left and right to confuse everyone else in the inevitable dystopian future
How poetic ;D
The 15th century only gave us the tools;;; it's the 18th century that gave us nightmare fuel rules.
Wish I were there 😭
the 15th century was the 1400s tho...
@@aparcadepro1793 you mean: "wish I were then" xD
Time traveller grammar can be a headache as you take more and more trips hahaha
"I think I do??" Tom you literally have a degree in words
Wordology
a. thats not the kind of degree he has
b. and even if he did, words ≠ punctuation. punctuation is entirely artificial and only exists in text. nobody says " i have a dollar comma but its in quarters"
@@Matty002
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
@@Matty002 I do actually say punctuation when I'm speaking, because I never figured out how to control my tone
@@Matty002 except point 2 is wrong, speech has punctuation in it, for example you pause after a sentence. Speech came before writing. A full stop just indicates that pause in speech.
When I saw the title I was like "semicolons are easy" then I started watching the video and I realised it wasn't about programming.
Semicolons are easy though.
Underrated comment here
HAHAHAH
r/programmerhumor
Same here 😂😂🤓
I love the way we type stuff on the internet! It's so interesting because it's almost more expressive than saying things out loud at this point.
Sabrina and Tom Scott collaborate?? This is the; best thing I've ever seen ever; thank you guys for making this video;
I love the energy in the second (2nd) sentence;
Yes! More Sabrina and Tom, please!
I think you're pushing your luck with that second sentence,,,
Ah! I see; what you did there.
These are the best; replies I've ever gotten to a comment of mine I swear,
I think we need to take a moment to appreciate the high-quality graphics and animations. They really added a lot to this video.
+
+
Heck yeah
Huge agree! ++
This channel’s graphics are always incredible but this video has me blown away
The semicolon has two uses. 1. Instead of a full stop when you just can't bring yourself to let the previous sentence die a natural death. 2. When you don't know the first thing about punctuation but still feel there's some blackspace missing.
I;ll use the semicolon for whatever I damn well please; thanks;
"The semicolon has two uses: 1) Instead of a fullstop when you can't let your sentence die a natural death; 2) When you don't know the first thing about punctuation but still feel there's some blackspace missing."
(This comment was funny when I thought of it but now that I've typed it out I feel like I've been possessed by the spirit of an absolute asshole... ;-; )
@@conspiracypanda1200 sorry for possessing you for a second; I possessed my workplace on accident once
3. solves the bug in your code
@@Teddy-up5cd wow, you used it correctly
I personally use semicolons a lot; as someone that gets off-track easily and always remembers an additional point mid sentence, I find that it makes extemporaneous writing more coherent than it is in my head.
Have you researched the dash? It seems to unfortunately be falling out of fashion as well (making some things extremely hard to read when it's overloaded with commas) but what you described sounds more like the job of the dash. Semicolons are fairly elegant; they can mark a restatement, explanation, or other logical connection that could have been stated as a conjunction (which could fit what you said). Dashes are stronger semicolons; they're for more disjoint, interrupting, less grammatical additions to a sentence - and it's not beyond me to find a way to throw one in here. ;)
(and then, just for anyone curious, the most extreme is the parenthesis: when something technically isn't part of the thought, but you still want to say it at that time.)
I - love these comments; a lot. (Did I do it right? 😊)
Amen and also same hat
@@ThisCanBePronounced I fucking love your comment, I wanna put it on my wall
@@ThisCanBePronouncedI saw the dash usssge in Harry Potter, any book from 2000’s or more never seen it.
"I asked some friends"
...
Tom Scott shows up
...
Wow I am jealous of the friends you have
----------
I use semicolons a lot; spent a full week learning how to use them in like 5th grade. None of my teachers have told me I’m using them wrong, so I assume I’m fine. Huzzah
I asked my teacher once when i was in middle school and he basically said it can replace the word "and" so now i just use it for that purpose when i think my sentence is running on.
@@perperperpen I mean, regular commas also replace "and". that's just so we don't have to say "A and B and C and D"
but spoken language came up before written language, so commas, somicolons and periods are all just there to add pauses with different lengths. we first learn to speak "A B C and D" and then learn to add punctuation to better communicate the natural speech speed: "A, B, C and D"
(it's almost 2 AM here sorry if nothing I say makes sense)
I use theme when you can use both : and , to seperate the sentance i.e; "He was scared knowing everything; The truth to the world..."
I still don't get it; is it necessary to use them? Seems like we could just replace it with either a period or comma.
@@charlonecruz4376 well, they aren't *necessary*; they just add another layer of nuance to the language. you can totally write an entire book only using commas and periods and your writing likely wouldn't be hurt in the slightest
"the purpose of language is to understand, not to correct"
-someone smart
forgot to capitalize first word
"The purpose of language"... Oh, that is an interesting topic. Probably to manipulate other individuals (not necessarily in a bad way) to produce behaviours beneficial to you. Though there also might also be an internal cognitive usage, but you get a chicken and egg problem there.
But I'm an evolutionary biologist, and I suspect you were thinking more poetically ;)
@@maxthexpfarmer3957 Y-you too
MaxthexPfarmer, irony.
"Problem is, when someone dumb enough not to know how to write properly, others need to 'dumbify' themselves to be able to understand that person, which reduces the intelectual conversation level, sometimes even creating bigger confusions, caused by misinterpretation."
- Someone smarter
As a writer, I've come to learn the sad general rule for semi-colons: don't use them. Most of the time they can be replaced by a comma or other punctuation. A trend that has been increasing for the last century is to use an em dash -- instead. However, I still use them when I can afford to, which is rare.
what does em in em dash stands for?
long one?
I only use semicolons when programming or writing maths.
I used to use a long dash when I was in school, as that's how we were taught to interrupt conversational quotes to add information in a story. Now I just end quotes and use a comma. My native language is Spanish but using English online so much has changed the way I use punctuation in all languages (with exceptions where the rules are too different).
@@NoNameAtAll2The en dash is a single dash ‘-‘ while the em dash is two of those ‘-‘. n is the length of the first while m signifies the double length of the latter
I think it's a bit weird that Sabrina didn't actually explain how to use a semi colon in the video but, just to clarify, it's not grammatically correct to exchange a comma and a semi colon. A comma (in this context) seperates two linked ideas when one is a main clause and one is a subordinate clause. For example:
It was sunny, so I played soccer.
Here, the main clause is 'it was sunny,' which is a full sentence that can be said by itself. On the other hand 'so I played soccer,' is a subordinate clause because it cannot be said by itself. The sentence 'so I played soccer,' though it can obviously be used in conversation, is not a grammatically correct sentence and treating it as such can cause confusion.
On the other hand, a semi colon connects two ideas that are linked but that are both full sentences by themselves.
For example:
It was sunny; I played soccer.
In this example, both phrases are full clauses by themselves, which is why a semi-colon can be used. A more suitable fix to a semi-colon is either using a period (It was sunny. I played soccer.) or a conjunction like and (It was sunny and I played soccer.) Using a comma here (It was sunny, I played soccer), is a comma splice, which is where someone uses a comma to connect two main clauses
my friend introduced me to em dashes a few weeks ago - ever since then i'm a huge fan of them.
"When you don't want to finish a sentence, but you need more than a comma"
PERFECT
Well, the original use was to separate connected independent clauses (things that can exist as individual sentences). Something like: "My tea is getting cold. I should boil some more water" works just as well with a semicolon: "My tea is getting cold; I should boil some more water".
So, "I need something less than a period to connect these thoughts" would be a bit more apt.
@@frogstereighteeng5499 You mean like a double edged "thus"?
@@frogstereighteeng5499 What I find interesting is that we often do this in spoken language but I rarely see semicolons in closed captioning/subtitles. I wonder if that's because it can confuse the meaning of what they're saying; It's probably easier to use a period instead anyways.
@@frogstereighteeng5499 still, it feels so dirty using the ; because I know I know to little to not get slugters by gramer natzy, and ; makes it looks like I know what i'm doing when im writing :P but yeah totally agree on the way u use it
@@OrangeC7 I've always wondered that as well!
I really love semicolons; when I'm writing connected ideas, periods often make it feel like there is a disconnect between two clauses, while a comma indicates that the two clauses together form one idea. A semicolon indicates that they are two related ideas that inform each other, but in which they are separable to form coherent thoughts.
This is probably closest to my preferred ideal. But I daren't when trying to impress upon people with far more power than I have the importance of my ideas. Don't want to piss them off with my grammar. (And, as she notes, it's dealing with laws).
Shouldn’t that be a regular colon, since the second clause is elaborating on the first one?
@@garretmh not necessarily: the second clause can be informing the first. It adds a poetic lilt to the transition between the clauses, the metaphor to the colon's simile; I tend to think of the way Tolkien uses them in Lord of the Rings as a good example.
YES THIS IS IT.
Yep; if you use a comma instead of a semicolon, you end up with a run-on sentence.
"Gen Z's paralyzing fear of conflict to the point of replacing periods with commas and ellipses"
I feel very called out
I spent about a minute wondering what an ellipsis was... and of course I use them all the time, just like semicolons; I felt dumb when I remembered.
I've got it the other way round; what generation am I?
That is EXACTLY what I do, my paragraphs are literally just one or two massive sentences.
I don’t do that, but I do leave out the period in informal messages consisting of one sentence because the absence of a question mark or an exclamation point implies a period
Ellipses are… wait for it…
…
↑ that
The purpose of punctuation is to eliminate structural ambiguity. While punctuation is most frequently used to impose a cadence, the semicolon is almost never used that way. It is almost exclusively used to conjoin elements of differing hierarchies. It is probably the least ambiguous of all the conjunctions. People are just confused because it's almost never used.
I love that language is fluid and ever changing! The "Internet grammar" stuff is a great example. Like, saying "wha??¿?" To convey extreme confusion/dumbfoundedness, or raNdOm cApitAlisaTion to create a sarcastic/mocking tone, or PURELY CAPS TO EMPHASISE A POINT OR EXPRESS EXCITEMENT/ANGER!!! Heck, even "!!1!!1!!!111!" Is its own thing, again usually a mocking recount of somebody else's comments. The list goes on and on. None of it is ""grammatically correct"" but it sure is expressive and fun and clearly communicates an idea!
Have you read _Because Internet_ by Gretchen McCulloch? If not, I highly recommend it to anyone interested in “internet grammar”
@@Booksds thank you! I'll look into it! 😊
Somehow it's not surprising that the internet has many obvious examples of how to express sarcasm or a mocking tone...
Sometimes I'd just write a sentence without any commas emphasizing that my thoughts are fast-paced and go one after another making it into an indistinguishable confusing blob of text.
Actually, punctuation is kind of a form of science in its own, which is very fascinating to me.
It isnt grammatically correct _yet_.
Gotta love Tom Scott (with his linguistics degree) "I'm confident I know how to use a semi-colon", rates confidence at 50% while everyone else was 70-80
If you know a little about a topic, you over judge your knowledge. If you know a lot about a topic, you understand how complex it is and the many things you have left to learn.
The Dunning Krueger(?) effect lol
@@The_Red_Scare You literally read my mind. What is wrong with you?
this is an interesting thing, where if you know alot about a topic, you will think you know less about it,
and someone who knows a little about it, will insist they know alot
@@The_Red_Scare The Dunning-Kruger Effect states that people who are weak in a topic over estimate their abilities and people who are knowledgeable in a topic under estimate it. However, it's not so extreme. Someone who is weak at a test might think they got a 65% when in fact they got a 50%. Meanwhile someone who got a 100% might think they got a 95%. The Dunning-Kruger Effect is rounding error in a direction, not stupid people assuming they are smart.
Ironically you knowing something about the Dunning-Kruger Effect, but not tons about it is a perfect example of this, that you'd misunderstand it in an exaggerated way, assuming the effect is larger than it is.
If Tom Scott gives a 50% then odds are high he was never taught the semicolon in class, regardless of his degree.
not this coming out 2 hours after i wrote an english essay where i sprinkled in some semicolons for taste❤️
The way you said that almost seems like a recipe, you know like "add salt to taste"? How about "add semicolons to taste"?
@@KingsleyIII yep, just a dash of punctuation
update: i got an A on the essay🦶
@@NicoEm ironically, I get a similar thing but with word choice. I am at my most eloquent and pithy when just following my brain. When I try to spice things up, it normally just isn't quite right.
100% confident in my semicolon use at the end of almost every line of code I write in C. I think this video suggests that a video on the proper use of "fewer" vs "less" and "bring" vs "take" and "upload" vs "download" and similarly often confused words would be a successful video.. "you're probably not using these words correctly"
I'm Indonesian and an English major graduate. I once wrote an entire paper discussing about semicolons in a poem by e.e. cummings. And I STILL have no idea how to use a semicolon.
> I’m Indonesian and an English major graduate.
Why?
@@Egilhelmson maybe because they need English teachers in Indonesia?
@@Egilhelmson maybe, just maybe, cus they simply _want_ to do it? But idk
@@johnk3841 no, what’s the point of pointing that out. We don’t need to know your ethnicity
Ehehe cummings
Just put it at the end of every statement.
This was made by c++ gang
ya missed an opportunity to put a semicolon at the end my dude;
C++? More like C Because Java, C# and C++ all require semicolons. They inherited that from their daddy aka C.
Message approved by the java gang.
@@MrMarclax Daddy C is best daddy
you put a semicolon at the end of an if statement? Kappa
“Do you know how to use a semi colin?”
Me: ;_;
Me: ;( ;)
@@lazygnome0
,’) master race
!?!
I rarely use semi colons; however, I do use it with "howevers'" rather often.
;-;
A question mark is a great argument for punctuation not being elitist. It allows you to abbreviate your questions without changing your meaning.
The text "coming back" has a completely different meaning than "coming back?", but without a question mark, it would have to be phrased "I am coming back" or "will you be coming back", respectively.
I love semicolons; they help me with run-on sentences.
See, that could have just been a comma right there; that’s why I hate semi-colons.
@@irrelevance3859 Actually, it couldn't have been. It was a correct use of a semicolon.
I love a well placed semicolon!
@@gavinwilson5324 I know it's correct. I'm being ironic.
@RaquelPixie - help you create run-on sentences; or help you correct them?
I feel like this overlooks a critical aspect of written language; writing is not simply a tool for two-way communication, but also for one-way information delivery.
Yes, when you're having a conversation with someone and they don't have perfect grammar, you can ask them for clarification. However, if you're writing a novel, your readers can't, or won't, ask you what you meant if your writing is obtuse. They will either soldier on in confusion or stop reading altogether.
So I'd agree that we shouldn't be obnoxious about grammar in informal settings, in a two-way format, but if you are writing for an audience with limited means for the audience to communicate with you, it is paramount that you are familiar with the rules and adhere to them as closely as possible, unless you are intentionally breaking the rules for some narrative or thematic reasons.
I would argue that, in such a case, clarification isn’t strictly necessary. As you said, most people will just move on after encountering a weirdly phrased sentence. I doubt anyone out there would actually dwell for too long on something as insignificant as a misplaced semicolon, let alone just stop reading altogether. At the very worst, they’ll assume you made a typo and move on.
On a separate note, what “rules” are writers supposed to be familiar with? Are you trying to imply that there’s some high council out there, deciding which ways to write and spell are right or wrong? If there was one, who exactly would be enforcing those rules? As you said, the purpose of language is to convey information. If a certain sentence breaks the so-called rules of language, but still effectively and clearly conveys the intended message, then how exactly is that sentence “wrong”?
@@zargdestroyerofworlds5580 good language rules exist not to prescribe language, but to describe it. If you as an author want to communicate effectively and clearly, and if you are unsure about a certain punctuation mark, that doesn't mean nobody else knows about it either. So to communicate with the people who do know that mark, you should follow the established convention. No high council, just popular consensus described succinctly.
Not to be that guy, but I'm _pretty_ sure the semicolon you used should've just been a colon. Not that it hurts what you're trying to say; I'm just being pedantic.
@@zargdestroyerofworlds5580 Sometimes punctuation is vital to understanding the intention of the author. There's a meme example floating around out there about the sentence "A woman without her man is nothing." Depending on how you punctuate it, you can make the sentence say that: A) a woman is nothing without her man or B) men are nothing without women.
Readers can often draw clues from context to infer what the author intended, but not always. Authors can also rephrase their sentences to improve clarity, even without punctuation (like in my A&B paraphrasing above). However, if the tools are available, why not use them?
@@Ck87JF and I find this conversation very English-centred as well, in a lot of languages minor grammar mistakes completely change the meaning of a sentence (specifically languages with cases). Sure, in English missing a comma once in a while doesn't necessarily ruin the whole sentence, but we can't really go in the extreme direction of "write however you want" either. Otherwise each person could come up with their own grammar rules and their own words and no one would understand each other. The purpose of language is to communicate, so some rules are necessary (although they don't need to be made up by a council, generally people understand the rules intuitively).
It helps knowing that:
1- It’s stronger than a comma but not as strong as a dot.
2- When you have two different ideas in a long sentence, instead of putting a comma, you could use a semicolon.
in our class in italian we use it when you finish a phrase but the next phrase you start continues with the same topic as the first one; you use the period/dot when the next phrase changes topics.
Two different, BUT RELATED ideas. I think that's key
Pokemon grammar rules love it
Also, nobody ever got worried about missing a semicolon.
But some cancer survivors HAVE a semicolon.
@@allanrichardson9081 Why would you make them the butt of the joke? That's a pretty shitty thing to do.
"Valuing the punctuation over the person." - spot on!
The big problem with ambiguity is when two people read a sentence differently with neither of them realising there’s ambiguity there and that’s where we really need punctuation.
Reminds me of every time I run across the word "bemused" and don't know if it's being used for "confused" (its lexical meaning) or "amused" (a relatively new meaning, as I understand it), and not knowing the distinction makes me either bemused or just annoyed.
The thing about the "rules", for me, is that they further communication; if they get in the way, they need to change or be ignored. Communication becomes most crucial in legal documents and medical documents, which is where the rules should be most strictly adhered to; in less crucial writing, it's not a big deal until you convey a meaning strongly at odds with the one you intended to convey. Or when you create a road bump for people who were previously immersed in your story then ran across an obviously mistaken word, one easily corrected in their head (they knew what you meant) but still an error that pushes the reader out of the story.
We're gonna eat grandma or We are gonna eat, grandma
1:01 1:01 1:01 1:01 1:01 1:01
As a linguist, I am SO glad you made that last point about the dangers of grammar policing.
But if your only means of communication is the written text, like with YT comments, having a text with *no* punctuation is very hard to read, and asking for a little explanation is likely going to get you just another blob of unintelligible text. I don't mind an occasional grammatical mistake, I make enough of those myself, but some effort is required.
I think there's a fine line between policing and the other person just needing to learn a bit more proper grammar.. i think understanding their vs they're, or it's vs its is an important part of grammar and can confuse the reader if not used correctly. But on the other hand, i find that people who insist on putting a period after the end of their last sentence, or capitalising the first letter of a message/comment can be a bit too full of themselves or annoying (not everyone of course). sometimes I think people use "correct" grammar to show their 'superiority', and that's what I don't like
To give an example, very often when people get into a discussion online, you'll notice one person suddenly starts to type with 100% correct punctuation/grammar on purpose, and i think they do it because they think it makes them look smarter
Scenario:
A: i think having this might be a good idea because ...
B: No. That's a terrible idea. It will never work.
To me, person B just gives off this aggressive vibe and looking down on person A
But maybe it's just me, i haven't really encountered someone who agrees with me yet xd
@@MrBsehratmaannking i know people who type like that on texts and i'm pretty sure it's more of a personal preference than anything else, but then again, i purposefully avoid people who're full of themselves so... dunno
@@JorGe-gr2ui yeah it's not everyone for sure.. Ive known a few people who also just preferred to type that way
Using a semicolon always makes me feel tense.
;
@@LolSumor *grabs the holy water*
Past, present or future tense?
Or does it make you feel, felt, will feel tense?
@@LolSumor @Sophia Nguyen your pfps match :)
I have a degree in English, with an emphasis in writing. I took Advanced Grammar--it was the hardest class I took! My professor said, "People who learn English as a second language go home and cry at night!" I've never forgotten that! lol Keep up the good work!
"Semicolons are hard to use."
Me a programmer( );
You sure about that?!
python():
yea pretty sure actually
aren't you a Programmer{} that Programmer.programs();?
@@irissupercoolsy you know what that makes more sense haha
@@s4rib nice 😁
in python territory, you bet semicolons are hard to use if i suddenly have to switch to GLSL or C# or something
The fact that Grammarly didn't sponsor this is so bizarre to me; they're the perfect sponsor for this subject.
Grammarly's entire premise relies on prescriptive grammar, if anything, they'd want this video deleted
Not really. The whole business model of Grammarly is built on selling people the ability to be perfect at grammar. Whereas this video's whole purpose is to deconstruct the very assumption that "proper grammar" exists. I don't think Grammarly would appreciate having their service invalidated.
Gram-er-ree
Languge is there to express ideas, not limit them
-John Green
Where's your full stop? 😂
@@rusca8
Is it needed? The sentence is just as clear without it
I wouldn’t omit the full stop unless there’s a clear line break, though
Rusca8 Why limit the sentence’s ideas?
@@ragnkja I dunno, I kind expect John to say "buy Fault in the Stars" after that.
Sure, but that's why you need proper grammar and punctuation...just to make sure you don't express a completely different thing than what you actually mean
All throughout highschool and now college I've used the semicolon. I've used it in so many ways, ways that were probably incorrect.
And no matter it was APs or not, never got marked down.
I just used it confidently and in a way that was consistent with my style and tone, I think that's why no reader or teacher ever thought to second guess my ;.
It's so much fun; really, i just love how it makes a sentence flow.
THE EDITING OMG. Can't get over how cool it is.
Something important to recognize here is what a style guide (these being the things that lay out punctuation rules) actually is. A style guide is a set of standards to ensure that across a publication with multiple writers, all the content has a cohesive structure and feel. There are multiple style guides, all competing, all with subtly different recommendations, some more popular than others, but all that ultimately matters is that, should you need a particularly high degree of consistency for whatever reason (*and you might not*), you pick some standard, any standard, and stick with it.
While we're at it, dictionaries are a record of words as they are used and spelt, not instructions for use. Sure, keep citing it if you get into a debate about words for whatever reason, but keep in mind its limitations.
Descriptive vs prescriptive, yes. The former is very much preferable and what dictionary writers will tell you.
Style guides are also often adopted by specific fields/disciplines to *facilitate* conversation, and basically make it so people in said fields/disciplines know where to look in the text for certain things, and not get lost in the formatting.
Sometimes, as the need demands, authors can even give their own spin on the style because the guides aren't always complete and comprehensive, or context changes (the APA Style Guide's recent shifts are an example of that). In those cases, new editions can be released if a huge segment of the authors using said style guide does a certain practice, anyway. (or sometimes they do it just to make everyone's lives easier)
But they are, as you said, *guides* , not laws.
2:48 "So you kinda get the idea that everybody's ideas were similar; they overlap."
this video tought me more about grammar than seven years of primary school; thanks for keeping me entertained while teaching me so much!
“Tom Scott lives in hotel rooms” is a thought I didn’t anticipate occurring in a video about grammar
The animation and quality of the research always blow me away!
Sabrina: "Do you know how to use a semicolon?"
Me: "Yeah, at the end of the line in JS, except when you don't. JS is fng weird, mate
add it at where you are supposed if you are writing in java or c# wouldn't throw an error. ignoring it wouldn't either. correct me if i'm wrong, only used it for 3 projects.
Or... at the beginning of lines that begin with open paren or square bracket, and nowhere else, b/c JS is fng weird, mate ;)
Honestly? Something "we're all pretty confident we know how to use, but we're all operating under slightly different sets of rules" is a good summary of how language works in general.
I know how to use semicolons!
if (stemMajor) {
failEnglishClass();
}
@@zutaca2825 if stemMajor is a bool, then a simple if statement would work well.
@@zutaca2825
// If you're comparing strings, you should use a dedicated function for that, unless you use javascript but that's lame
//Also, if statements are overrated. It should be like this:
void (*funcArr[2]) (void) = {&passClass, &failClass};
int i = 1*(strcmp(major, "stem") == 0);
(*funcArr[i])();
I think one of the problems is that, thanks to manuals of style, no-one is ever allowed to write a sentence that could benefit from a semicolon without being corrected for a run-on anyway.
I had a student I was tutoring who was marked down for every sentence using a semi-colon; the teacher claimed they were run-ons. Only one of them actually was. I finally had to tell her "Look, change them to periods so you pass the class, but just be aware that your professor is absolutely wrong in this case."
I'm starting to think it's not that WE don't know how to use them --- it's that the "experts" don't.
I loved the semicolon when I left high-school; it was beaten out of me in college/uni. I have slowly allowed it back in my writing these days.
I grew to develop a fascination for semicolons in high school and used them a lot during those years and even in college. Language is so fun to learn and dive into.
How did she not sneak a programming joke into this.
Easily
print("Ikr I am kinda sad there is no programming joke")
@@fitmotheyap - Error line 1 CS1002 ; expected
Lmao you had one job XD
@@MouseGoat why are you trying to compile python to c# lmao
@@JansthcirlU Both of u had one job.
I was actually praised by my HS english teacher for my semicolon usage. I've barely used it since though, as it's rarely needed
I'm a copy editor and proofreader, and found this and Taha's video really interesting. I totally agree with many of your points. Language is evolving all the time. My take on grammar and punctuation rules is that they are there to serve us, not the other way around - they are standards and guidelines we can use to help us get our ideas across to others clearly. If there were no such rules, it would probably be very difficult for people to understand others' written expression. The other important aspect to all of this is audience: who is the writing for? Is it for your friends, your colleagues, people throughout your country, people who speak your language in all countries? That will obviously affect how and what you write - if you follow the generally accepted grammar and punctuation standards, more people will be able to access your ideas.
Sabrina: I'm feeling vindicated
in my head: vindicatiOOONNN!!
Holt on the screen: vindicatiOOONNN!!
how are u in my brain Sabrina??
Ooooh~ another camera change!
Started playing this whilst coding, and was really confused why there wasn't a grumpy brit talking about japan at 3:25
ahahaha i was shook too
😂😂 knew I would find this comment! There is something off-putting about listening to this without the bike bell ringing or the car honking though
Same
I was waiting for both Chris *and* Andong.
THANK YOU OMG! I blitzed by this comment while trying to find out where the hell else I knew that music from, but what you wrote stuck with me for three more pages of non-answer comments until AHHA THATS IT JAPAN ABROAD! and my head exploded. Thank you for clearing that up; now I have to clean this up.
I use semicolons in a few cases, like when I'm making a list with a sub-list, with multiple things, or with commas; when I need to separate that list from the listing of the sub-list; and when I realize that's the only time I use semicolons.
the only time I use semicolons
Your sentence structure gave me anxiety.
In 5th grade, our teacher thought us the semi-colon; we all thought it looked so cool in our writing. We started using it everywhere: in our fiction writing, where we used it in every sentence; in our non-fiction writing, where we used it in every heading; and even in our maths, where in the “explain your answer” section, we used it religiously. The teacher started to get really agitated; our writing was now barely intelligible just so we could cram in as much semi-colons as possible. So she had to ban all semi-colons from our writing, tests, and even us talking or mentioning the semi-colon. Once we went into the next grade and we could use the semi-colon again, and since then, everyone can’t go a word without using one; that includes me writing this comment; oh.
I've always thought of semicolons as a tool for fixing comma splices. Whenever you run across a comma splice in your writing, just swap in a semicolon for the comma, and you're golden.
@Juts It’s when two sentences are joined together with a comma instead of being separated with a period. Comma splices are considered grammatically incorrect.
I've taught English grammar and in my gut I felt attacked by this video, but in my heart AND in my brain I know how right you are. I think there's value is teaching grammar, as long as the approach and purpose is made clear: those in power will use any reason at all to ignore those with less power, so learning to communicate clearly and, sometimes, in the "proper mainstream language" is a great skill to have. I also think understanding English grammar reveals some of its flaws, which ALWAYS leads to really interesting conversation and critical thinking.
All that being said, there is a lot of room in education for change - there's no reason why the default has to be what it's always been.
New Sabrina video:
*turns adblock off*
Dang, u a real one
As a grammer nerd I love English; simple rules leading to clear and concise communication is fantastic.
im sorry i cant help but notice, *grammer* ? you mispelled the main word
For some reason I tend to use a semi colon to link sentences, when I don't want to use "and". I hate using a colon. OMG I submitted a short story with it being the third most used punctuation.
I do the same thing lmao
that's literally one of the functions of a semicolon
I've been using semicolons and em-dashes so much more
i got marked down 5% for ending two sentences with prepositions in one of essays and i nearly wrote an email to my professor explaining to her why prescriptive grammar is garbage
it made me so angry
Prescriptive grammar is fine and good... It has its place,and that was the right context for it. The problem is that, for English, many of the Rules are nonsense. Because they're not English rules. Their either badly repurposed latin or complete fabrications.
Descriptivism absolutely has its place, it is Exactly what linguists should employ when studying languages. It is also the discipline that should be employed when determining what the rules of a language actually are, and should rightly be used to destroy any argument that some particular rule must be followed when said rule is utter nonsense.
Once the discipline of linguistics developed enough to debunk the erronius garbage put about by the ignorant twits who set the prescribed rules based on nothing more than an assumption that, having written a book and had the money to get it published (and similar,equally useless credentials), they could not possibly be incorrect, then linguistis were Absolutely right to do so.
They didn't, not really, they just decried prescriptivism in general as a great evil and gave ideological rabble rouses another stick to use on those who dared to make sensible counter arguments, while the Generally ignorant masses, having internalized the idea that prescriptivism is Inherently evil, are more likely to go along with it (no matter how logically inconsistent and flat out Wrong the claim in question may be. Calling someone a prescriptivist achieves about the same effect asking when they stopped beating their wife, useful argument wise.)
On the other hand, Descriptivism has absolutely No Place in the class room. Well, not when it comes to teaching proper grammar and the like. Because the classroom is specifically Supposed to be teaching standard or formal English. You know, the sort you use when you want to be understood by someone who's Not from the same socioeconomic back ground, small geographic area, technical field, and/or generation. Because the goal is Clear Communication.
That said, there are a lot of things that people claim are "rules" that absolutely belong in a style guide and not in a grammar... And some of those style guides should then be rounded up and burned. They are that awful.
TL;DR: the problem isn't Perscriptivism, it's that somewhere along the way setting the system on fire became more ideologically acceptable than error checking. Because apparently telling a kid that negating their sentences improperly makes them hard to understand is oppressive... Or possibly rewriting the rules to actually reflect reality (like every other field of science does) was too much like hard work and it was easier to just pretend there aren't any.
@@laurencefraser yes, thank you, I'm so tired of hearing "these few rules are latin-based garbage, therefore GRAMMAR IS BULLSHIT, DO WHATEVER YOU WANT"
(including in this video)
“This is the sort of English up with which I will not put.” -Churchill
@@laurencefraser Agreed. Many people who like to use ACHUWAL LUGWISSSTS to back up their anti-prescriptivist tirades often forget that one branch of linguistics is the study of register--the way people talk and write appropriate to the context. No linguist worth his or her salt is going to back someone up trying to argue why they shouldn't be fired or shouldn't get marked down on a paper for using colloquialisms perfectly acceptable between friends, but severely frowned upon or outright banned in the workplace or schools.
To give an example, I had a colleague years and years ago who was heavily criticized by our school board for his use of plain-form and colloquial Japanese with our bosses and supervisors. _Shiagattoru_ this and _jatta_ that is fine with your friends, but positively verboten in the workplace. _Desu_ and _Masu_ only, there, and a little keigo with the big wigs goes a long way.
Many people who complain about sentences ending with prepositions often fail to correctly distinguish prepositions from adverbs; many words can take on either role. For example, in the phrase "Turn on the light", "on" does not function as a preposition. Instead, it acts as a modifier to clarify the sense of the verb "turn". Compare that to an expression like "turn on a dime", wherein "on" is actually being used as a preposition.
In other news... in spite "on" and "off" being opposites, and in spite "come" and "go" also being opposites, "come on" and "go off" can at times mean the same thing! For example, the lights on a police car may come on at the same time its siren goes off.
I JUST WANT TO SCREAM THIS; THE ANIMATION IS JUST-----WHAT WHY ARE YOU NOT FAMOUS??
I rarely ever use semicolons - I've come to use the em dash far more, as I do throughout this comment. It's a very versatile punctuation mark - as you can see, it even works to separate thoughts within a sentence, kind of like parentheses - although it isn't naturally found on a keyboard. On a Windows machine like mine, it's entered by holding down the Alt key while entering the numbers 0151 on the 10-key pad. So there you go - that's why I like to use the em dash.
do you always use the dash this much
@@i_love_games110 Not exactly. Here, I was making a point by showing the various ways I use it, so I used it far more often than I do in reality.
"ever-evolving blob we call language"
I love that
of course I know how to use a semicolon. put one at the end of every line when coding in C
c# also does it too!
or Ada or C++ or C# or D or Java or Objective-C or PHP or Rust or Seed7
Me too! It's so simple even a toddler should know this. For example:
for(;;);
Guys, we all know that semicolons were invented by a time travelling Dennis Ritchie, to have something to put at the end of statements.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
............................
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The thing that stuck out the most about this video to me is the fact that that Kurt Vonnegut quote could be rewritten, quite legibly, with a semicolon.
"Do not use semicolons; all they do is show you've been to college."
SUCK ON THAT, VONNEGUT!
so you have been to college eh?
You almost had me convinced to give up proper punctuation until you mentioned interpreting laws. I hadn’t thought of that, but it is an excellent reason to practice proper punctuation on a daily basis. If we all just assume that someone else will keep track of, it won’t be long before that knowledge is lost from the public mind and nobody can check if laws are being interpreted correctly. I may be coming from a skewed viewpoint here as I am an engineer and most of the reading and writing I do is to communicate clearly and concisely, leaving no room for ambiguity or misunderstanding. I will absolutely add three more sentences that don’t flow and don’t form a solid conclusion just so I can be sure the information was communicated clearly.
Maybe I’m just salty because I grew up typing two spaces at the end of my sentences and by the time I got to college, the teacher was taking points off my papers for using two spaces after a period. If we’re going to spend years teaching kids the rules, why is anyone allowed to change them?
Well I guess I better wrap this up because it is well past my bed time and I can tell I’m ranting
It's interesting that the whole video is set up to conclude with "as literacy went broader, those rules become important," yet it ends with "Rules are boring, write whatever and ask if the other site can't use basic grammar."
This brings me back to my Norwegian classes. In Norway every dialect is considered "correct" and "official", but that does NOT apply to writing. I was always terribly confused in class and my grades suffered. And by the way, Norway has two official Norwegian languages that you have to learn; and neither really match what i speak
I'm convinced Norwegian is impossible to master. And I'm from the east where the written and spoken language is similar
@@soundninja99 The key is to learn Danish first
@@flutterwind7686 I'd sooner go mute than learn Danish.
@@rateeightx Sick burn; which language do you know?
that’s because one of the standardised written languages in norway, bokmål, is based on danish.
It's actually really simple: a semicolon separates the cost from the effect.
Oh wait, we're not talking about yu-gi-oh cards, are we?
when that "Chris Abroad in Japan" music played, it hit me... lol I thought Chris would suddenly appear as a cameo or something
Went looking for this comment and who else noticed haha
She could have at least been eating fried chicken.
@@Trevin_Taylor or the Monster Ramen challenge. haha
That was kind of trippy.
:mind_blown:
In my mind, punctuation is used to clarify intent, tone and inflection. The question mark and exclamation point are obvious examples of this, however things like commas can help with introducing sometimes crucial pauses into your sentences. For example, the Oxford comma, whose existence can easily clarify the intent of the sentence. The semicolon is definitely lesser-used than others, but it does indeed have a use. Standardization and clear rules make every use of these punctuations consistent; think of the ambiguity of some tone indicators like /hj. Using punctuation properly also enforces professionalism, like how you wouldn't shorten "you're" to "ur" when filling out a job application, for example.
The texting culture can misuse these all it wants, but standardization should still be kept for professional language, so that intent is always clear and not subject to change based on trends.
my very intense feelings about prescriptive grammar as someone who learnt english as third language summarised in one video under 15 mins,,, thanks you for this!
Me: *watching the first 5 seconds*
Me, literally out loud: nO WAY IT'S TOM
A quote from my absolutely favorite book at the moment “ Language evolves, so must we.” -Carry On. By Rainbow Rowell
Ironically, that comma ought to be a semicolon. :)
I always love to say this to my friends
"I will English however I want as long as your English agrees with my English"
Language is just for communication, having so many rules and saying there's no room for fun mistakes really is plain old boring!
Next, Sabrina covers why all the tenses in English have such strange names and rules even though native speakers use them instinctively. Intense.
They don't.
English has a past tense, and a not-past tense. The former is null-marked, the latter has a suffix.
It then has a pile of aspects and moods that, like every other language, get mashed together in a pile with those tenses and spat out in various combinations. The aspects have names, the moods have names, and the most common combinations have names. Far as I can tell, most European languages took the names from latin when they had one that worked the same as a latin, and then either copied their neighbours or just flat out made things up for the rest. From what I recall, the only really confusing names for English aspects are the perfect vs the perfective. In that one of those is super common in other languages, but English doesn't use it much, and the other is used a lot in English, has some overlap, but isn't the same thing.
@@laurencefraser You're certainly correct. I just think it's interesting how you can catergorise all language into aspects and moods and tenses, when to native speakers it's just... natural. I say this as someone grappling with the frightening regularity of Latin- you can't exactly transpose the imperfect subjunctive onto your own language when you use it instinctively. Or maybe I'm just not mathsy enough to see the patterns when they're right in front of my nose (also, check the description of this video).
My greatest achievement in life is having more confidence in the use of a semi colon than tom scott.
The fundamental problem is that language is linear, while knowledge is fractal-like. So no matter how you write, you're always trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Commas and full stops (periods) let you group your linear text into a tree structure. Semicolons add another level of branching in case you need it.
I like using semicolons; it's a great way to connect independent clauses without an awkward conjunction.
For those talking about semicolons in programming, they were initially used in a similar way than in natural language, as a separator. When you wanted to put more than one statement in one line you would put a semicolon between them. The newline was the actual terminator so putting a semicolon at the end of only one statement was just redundant, but many people did it anyway and later other languages started using it as a statement terminator, one of those being C.
I heard somewhere that a semicolon is correct when used like the word "because". If the word because fits, pop a semicolon in there.
I heard somewhere that a semicolon is correct when used like the word ";". If the word; fits, pop a semicolon in there.
...did I do it right?
long long ago my friend and I would say "semicolon however comma"
@@rowan4684 no
That's almost correct! There are other uses for semicolons but using one in place of the word "because" is one possible use. Basically a semicolon can be used to connect two clauses which grammatically should be separate sentences and turn them into one sentence. The word "because" can do that too, though "because" has additional meaning, saying that the second clause is the reason for the first.
For for example: "I like boats; my sister likes trains." is a correct usage of a semicolon, but it's closer to meaning "I like boats and my sister likes trains" rather than "I like boats because my sister likes trains"
When the video began, I was like, "Finally, my problem will be put to rest", now I am just a very informed fool😂😂😂😪
'tis the only way
And the secondary main use of the semicolon (which I did not see anyone mention) is to separate items in a list; items which themselves contain commas.
Examples of fruits are apples, pears, and oranges.
Examples of foods are fruits, like apples, pears, and oranges; vegetables, like carrots, potatoes, or lettuce; and grains, such as wheat and rice.
English at school was very frustrating. We were forced to use at least one of each form of punctuation (yes, including ellipses) to get full marks. Agh!
Glad I'm doing STEM now 😅
3:23 wait a second this isn't Journey across Japan!
I could hear it in my bones before I knew what it was.
@@evolutionxbox I was looking away from the screen and I had thought I've been transported to another dimension
I have located the fan club
This video is so timely, I was literally editing a paper on Monday and this kid was using semicolons as commas and I was losing my mind
You guys have some of the cleanest infographic animations on youtube.
me, an english creative writing and teaching major who’s already graduated and knows an absurd amount about linguistics and grammar: interesting
And yet you express yourself in memes
@@radhiadeedou8286 only real cultured people use memes as a way to express themselves in the TH-cam comment secrion
@@radhiadeedou8286 As they should.
HOW COULD THIS POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN DEDUCED BY THE CLUUUEUEEEEEE
?! = punctuation
music = punctuation was like music
heart = punctuation is like feeling
I KNOW IT'S TERRIBLE, I'M VERY BAD AT THEM.
what the hell @@answerinprogress xD
Wow, just thinking of an old video of yours where you defended new slang terms like fleek and twerk, and looking at how the video production just got better. As always, I am in awe of the skill y'all have at AIP.
my understanding just from experience, not from any explicit teaching, is that colons and semicolons both separate two iterations of the same thing, but colons go down in abstraction and semicolons stay the same or go up in abstraction.
So I might write "It was an efficient mode of transport: a train."
The colon follows an abstract idea and is followed by a concrete example.
I might also write "it was an efficient mode of transport; a quick means to an end."
The semicolon follows a relatively concrete idea, and is followed by an abstraction of that idea.