Two poshos, unfortunately! Some things don't change that much. I was at Nottingham Uni in the 90s, and Christian philosophy and theology was very much marginal and generally dismissed. Though I was raised Catholic, it took me a long time to shake off that influence. I now realise that - apart from its significance in itself - Christian philosophy is absolutely the foundation of that of the so-called Enlightenment.
Well done. The return of sacred, myth, space for miracle, community, something bigger than a state, politics. A return to real vision of first century christianity
I so enjoy this discussion as someone who constantly wonders how the west lost its spiritual way. I adopted sanatana dharma as my guiding light...and its huge repertoire of terms allows me to appreciate this analysis. Its the closest Ive ever come to understanding liturgy and the eucharist. For me the idea of liturgy as paricipating in all gifts of God...a cosmic event requiring constant, minute by minute renewal is akin to constancy of sadhana and abidance to dharma thatcI understand. I pray this video is kept here, to renew the hope of Christians perplexed by their tradition.
I was at Nottingham Uni in the 90s, and Christian philosophy and theology was very much marginal and generally dismissed. Though I was raised Catholic, it took me a long time to shake off that influence. I now realise that - apart from its significance in itself - Christian philosophy is absolutely the foundation of that of the so-called Enlightenment. This - RO - sounds like it might be the Big Idea I've been looking for since then.
Theology sometimes doesn't seem to be about facts or faith, but simply a rational argument / theory. I was listening to a physicist explain that two theories can have the same experimental consequences. On this basis, there is no way to distinguish their value. Tweaking one theory can lead to scientific advances by comparing the tweak with the other theory and how it might change.
It shouldn't be necessary to go to Seminary to learn about and understand this. I know for a fact - in my case - that it isn't. If it were then it would just be another idealistic lie.
Outstanding. The only hitch I'm seeing at the moment is the same old risk of focussing on Liturgy so much that you end up creating multiple full-time job descriptions that spend all of their time fussing about with words, programs, special music and choirs, food, flowers, special clothes, altar furnishings, etc and no time - and therefore developing no awareness of nor relationship with - the local community. Put down the silver candle-sticks and go to the local Soup Kitchen and dress _their_ tables! If you don't undrstand the need for this, you have no business creating High-Church Liturgy at all.
Hands, Heart and Head are all necessary, but the fundamental, essential component of a fruitful Christian community is fellowship with God. We must, above all, ensure that it is God Himself to whom we are inviting our neighbors, and not some social program or club merely bearing His branding. So yes, the moment the liturgy becomes branding rather than a means of grace (vectors for the real activity of the Spirit), we become idolaters. And the moment we, while bearing the name Christian, invite the world to anything other than God, we become swindlers and agents of the deceiver. That is the root of the majority of the world's (or at least America's) contempt of Christianity. "I used to know people who claimed to be godly. They clearly weren't. F*** 'em." [Apologies, but there is no more accurate or concise way to express the sentiment.] (And the alternative strategy of functionally reducing the Gospel and the Christian life to "forgiveness only", while less disappointing, is also entirely uninteresting/unhelpful.)
@@DarkMoonDroid As if... C'mon, flawed human beings within a state or a religious community will tend towards tyranny. What the authors are offering here is a utopian project, which is fine, as long as folks see it as such. Read Charles Taylor's A Secular Age; Christian communities were instrumental in bringing about the world that we live in today.
Newly minted secular states of Europe: I supposed she means the "absolute monarchies" of France etc. But those monarchs were all appointed by God, remember.
Why try to constantly explain everything in Greek terms? Why construct faith, culture and relality in Greek thought? Surely, as Christians, it should be the way scripture was given and understood Hebrewly that matters. At least as our starting point. We don't want to return to the arrogance of western culture, to our antisemitism. We need a more wholistic faith and ecclesia than that.
The New Testament was written in Greek. Also, the philosophy and theology that grew up around New Testament thought and early Christianity was very influenced by Greek philosophy. Also, the entire region in Jesus's time, and for sometime before and after, was very "Hellenized" that is, influenced by Greek culture.
@@watcherwlc53 That’s a big claim. The apostles might have been influenced by Greek culture, but they still embraced a Hebraic worldview/history. It would be more accurate to say the early Apostles filtered the Hebraic perspective through Greek categories.
Catherine's voice is angelic
Two poshos, unfortunately! Some things don't change that much.
I was at Nottingham Uni in the 90s, and Christian philosophy and theology was very much marginal and generally dismissed. Though I was raised Catholic, it took me a long time to shake off that influence. I now realise that - apart from its significance in itself - Christian philosophy is absolutely the foundation of that of the so-called Enlightenment.
Well done. The return of sacred, myth, space for miracle, community, something bigger than a state, politics. A return to real vision of first century christianity
I so enjoy this discussion as someone who constantly wonders how the west lost its spiritual way.
I adopted sanatana dharma as my guiding light...and its huge repertoire of terms allows me to appreciate this analysis. Its the closest Ive ever come to understanding liturgy and the eucharist.
For me the idea of liturgy as paricipating in all gifts of God...a cosmic event requiring constant, minute by minute renewal is akin to constancy of sadhana and abidance to dharma thatcI understand.
I pray this video is kept here, to renew the hope of Christians perplexed by their tradition.
Well Explained!..Christ said He would build his Church..We must allow Christ to build us and the Church.
I was at Nottingham Uni in the 90s, and Christian philosophy and theology was very much marginal and generally dismissed. Though I was raised Catholic, it took me a long time to shake off that influence. I now realise that - apart from its significance in itself - Christian philosophy is absolutely the foundation of that of the so-called Enlightenment.
This - RO - sounds like it might be the Big Idea I've been looking for since then.
Wow they are way ahead of their time.
anyone know where the Illich quote at 17:18 is from?
Theology sometimes doesn't seem to be about facts or faith, but simply a rational argument / theory. I was listening to a physicist explain that two theories can have the same experimental consequences. On this basis, there is no way to distinguish their value. Tweaking one theory can lead to scientific advances by comparing the tweak with the other theory and how it might change.
I wish I could aford to go to Nottingham to study for a PhD on 'Radical Orthodoxy'. Brilliant stuff. Oh T.O'L. what ya say?
It shouldn't be necessary to go to Seminary to learn about and understand this. I know for a fact - in my case - that it isn't. If it were then it would just be another idealistic lie.
Modern people do struggle with a double issue: 1) is there a god; 2) was Jesus god?
David Graeber gave talks about how unequal hunter gatherers were. It wasn't farming and cities that established social hierarchy and inequality.
Outstanding.
The only hitch I'm seeing at the moment is the same old risk of focussing on Liturgy so much that you end up creating multiple full-time job descriptions that spend all of their time fussing about with words, programs, special music and choirs, food, flowers, special clothes, altar furnishings, etc and no time - and therefore developing no awareness of nor relationship with - the local community. Put down the silver candle-sticks and go to the local Soup Kitchen and dress _their_ tables!
If you don't undrstand the need for this, you have no business creating High-Church Liturgy at all.
The only hitch I'm seeing is that it's got less than a snowball's chance in hell of working.
Hands, Heart and Head are all necessary, but the fundamental, essential component of a fruitful Christian community is fellowship with God. We must, above all, ensure that it is God Himself to whom we are inviting our neighbors, and not some social program or club merely bearing His branding.
So yes, the moment the liturgy becomes branding rather than a means of grace (vectors for the real activity of the Spirit), we become idolaters.
And the moment we, while bearing the name Christian, invite the world to anything other than God, we become swindlers and agents of the deceiver.
That is the root of the majority of the world's (or at least America's) contempt of Christianity. "I used to know people who claimed to be godly. They clearly weren't. F*** 'em." [Apologies, but there is no more accurate or concise way to express the sentiment.]
(And the alternative strategy of functionally reducing the Gospel and the Christian life to "forgiveness only", while less disappointing, is also entirely uninteresting/unhelpful.)
Remarks around the 10 minute mark remind me of Tillich’s panentheism.
This looks promising, assuming it doesn't get perverted and turn into tyranny.
Did you hear the bits about "Law" ? He addressed your concern directly. 15:00
It's the Secular Move that resulted in Tyranny.
@@DarkMoonDroid As if... C'mon, flawed human beings within a state or a religious community will tend towards tyranny. What the authors are offering here is a utopian project, which is fine, as long as folks see it as such. Read Charles Taylor's A Secular Age; Christian communities were instrumental in bringing about the world that we live in today.
Newly minted secular states of Europe: I supposed she means the "absolute monarchies" of France etc. But those monarchs were all appointed by God, remember.
Pickstock's so absurdly posh and Paul Kennedy sounds like an android gone wrong.
Why try to constantly explain everything in Greek terms? Why construct faith, culture and relality in Greek thought? Surely, as Christians, it should be the way scripture was given and understood Hebrewly that matters. At least as our starting point. We don't want to return to the arrogance of western culture, to our antisemitism. We need a more wholistic faith and ecclesia than that.
Christian Faith Ministries What we know as the canonical New Testament was first in Greek.
If you believe western culture is somehow irreparably rotten then you've just given up on Christianity haven't you
The New Testament was written in Greek. Also, the philosophy and theology that grew up around New Testament thought and early Christianity was very influenced by Greek philosophy. Also, the entire region in Jesus's time, and for sometime before and after, was very "Hellenized" that is, influenced by Greek culture.
15:00
@@watcherwlc53
That’s a big claim. The apostles might have been influenced by Greek culture, but they still embraced a Hebraic worldview/history. It would be more accurate to say the early Apostles filtered the Hebraic perspective through Greek categories.