This Kia Forte That Won’t Start Took Him Down The Rabbit Hole! Can He Get Out?!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ย. 2024
- Where do we even start?! This 2020 Kia Forte came in with a complaint of client running the vehicle through water. We thought locked up motor and move on. Well that definitely didn’t happen. Come along the journey with the Professor. He got a little frustrated with this one, but as long as we get it figured out, that’s all that matters. We hope it helps. Enjoy!
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Love the fact that you don't edit this and/or take out the dead-ends and false positives etc. This is what we come for - the real world and the thought process of a professional!
As a field tech for Kia Canada I can definitely say this is an unusual issue. You did all the right checks so be proud. We all get caught up in the rabbit hole when facing unusual faults.
Cheers!
Oh…and this is an instructional video so sometimes it’s hard to focus when you also have to talk to a camera and provide explanations
Few TH-cam mechanics will show their actual process in real time like this. Appreciate you for putting your knowledge out there sir 🙏
did over 50y in auto repair retired now at76 body shot just found your show i watch a lot of repair shows this is the only one that showes real life in auto repair keep up the good work
As other have said I appreciate the fact that you didn't edit the video to hide all the wrong turns and dead ends or worse yet not post it at all. You are a true professional sir and I appreciate you sharing all your knowledge with the rest of us.
That was an outstanding case study Sherwood, I really appreciate that you dont sugar coat it. You could easily have edited the video but we learn so much from this. Thankyou.
It is great to see how much knowledge of electronics is needed to be a true hands on mechanic. When I was working on cars in the 70s we only had to deal with the battery, coil and points.
My take, it doesn't take a depth of knowledge of electronics.. It takes not much more than a basic knowledge of electrical circuits. Voltage and continuity, both of which relate to resistance. Not much different than figuring out why your left headlight was dimmer than your right headlight on your 73 Chevelle.. The waveform thing.. Basically comparing known good to what you're getting. Its fairly simple stuff. Same as it was 60 years ago, there is just a lot more of it on a modern car.. Exponential amounts, its not just 6 circuits running your entire vehicle, its 100's if not possibly thousands.
.
What is impressive, is the ability to take a big complicated machine (a car) and break it down into individual simple circuits, and take it piece by piece.. And then take those simple pieces and puzzle them back together to find the actual real problem.
Great video. This is a good example for those who believe that all a mechanic has to do is plug in a scan tool and it tells them what to do and within minutes they got a fix. This shows there is times when diag can be long and time consuming and very difficult. So many thinks the scan tool does all the work and the bill is totally unacceptable because they can’t understand it takes 8+ hours sometimes to find the problem thats not always the case but there is times when diag can be a long painful process.
I truly appreciated the video and watched the entire thing. This is how I've learned over my years as a tech. Made mistakes, kicked myself in the butt but I remembered for future diagnostics. Who in the world would have thought all the coils went bad? They sit at the top of the engine which clearly wasn't under water etc. It's no wonder that you tested the way you did. Great job and we appreciate you and your team.
I appreciate you showing the mistakes as well as the fix it is helpful and honest
As a electrician times I may go down a rabbit hole can be influenced by the customer fron there description on what occured and I base my focus on that discription that wasnt appicable . Now other times it can be very helpful and most times it is but i learned to take it with a grain of salt .
Was stoked whem you guys announced 90 minute diag video . Got my popcorn , lets get into it !
What we have just seen ladies and gentlemen is a master class on patience when dealing with younger technicians and complex vehicles.
This is what we tech/shop owners go though day in and day out. I'm glad this is a full length video as an aid for consumers to see what actual diagnosis is, and why they should get charged accordingly. As always engage the head before the hands, keep grinding and growing. Thanks!
This is a wonderful video and I really really appreciate that you post these videos, with all of the mistakes, wrong paths, and conclusions. This is what it's really like to do many types of troubleshooting. Sometimes you get confused, sometimes you forget a step, rush and dont document properly, etc. The important thing is that you don't fire the parts cannon (or if you do, its the parts in your shop for no cost to you or the customer), and you keep using logic and knowledge to find the issue.
Good job!
Golden Bay mechtech in New Zealand here sherwood. I've been working in dealerships in Europe all my life and love your videos. Your logical approach wins out even if it takes you down that dreaded rabbit hole. Thumbs up from me my friend
Wow, that was a really crazy one! I have over 25 years of experience, but one thing I know for sure is that no matter how many decades of experience you have, we ALL go on a wild goose chase like this once in a while.
At the start of the video, when I saw the processor code, that immediately led me to believe that the PCM was bad. I would’ve gone down the path of trying to test that assumption first.
That being said, going back to what I said earlier, in the heat of the moment, it’s easy to overlook things and go down the wrong path.
This reminds me of a similar case I had recently, where I overlooked something simple. It was a ‘68 Charger with a stock 383, except for headers and a QuickFuel 750 carb. The car had been sitting for a few years and I was tasked with getting it running again.
I initially noticed that there were not only two gaskets between the carb and intake, but that there was a significant amount of silicone too. My initial thought was that someone that didn’t know what they were doing had been working on it.
I rebuilt the carb, got the old base gaskets and silicone off, and put on a new gasket. The engine would now run, but would not idle below 1100 RPM, and even then it was surging, with periodic firecracker like pops from the exhaust.
I did a compression test, leak down test, adjusted the ignition timing, all to no avail, before I finally checked for vacuum leaks. Found leaks around the base plate area.
Now I knew that Holley style carbs are susceptible to base plate warpage, but most of my experience with carbs are with Carter/Edelbrocks and Quadrajets. So I took the carb off, checked the flatness of the base plate, and wouldn’t you know it, warped by .002 in.!
It was at that moment that it finally clicked in my head. My initial observation of the two base plate gaskets plus silicone, was due to someone that didn’t know better attempting to get the warped base plate to seal. I should’ve realized that immediately, and could’ve saved myself a lot of time, work, and headache.
I put a known good Edelbrock carb on, and it started up and idled at 750 RPM with no problems.
Now getting back to the Kia, I’m very curious to know how the PCM got damaged from driving through water, since it’s high up in the engine compartment. The ignition coils and injectors are also pretty high up, and if the car was in water that deep, I imagine it should’ve floated.
Also, if it was a result of water damage, I would have expected the engine to shut off immediately.
No spark, I first check Ignition dwell time in pid. If it show 1.5-3 ms you know software is sending the command for spark and that it have crank and cam signal,now it's about hardware, wires,coils,power,gnd etc. But honestly talking during a diag ,my mind will be completely blocked. Good job
I work for Hyundai and we have the same motor 2.0L motor in our Kona and Elantra. We get the same issue with bad coils and Hyundai is very aware of it. They have a bulletin for it that tells you to replace all defective coils and complete a software update. Most cases we change all 4 coils to ensure to comeback for this issue.
Part number for coil : 27300-2E601QQH…. But you also have a PCM internal code which will most likely need the PCM
Yo I have a 2019 forte with 67k miles and the 2.0L, should I be concerned about coils soon? I’ve never had any mechanical issues
@@coldheart1806 Hard to predict when a part may or may not fail. But being a QQH part number, they are relatively cheap to replace and might as well replace plugs while your in there
@@stylesmazda thank you 🙏🏼
Lots of module rebuilders around since Covid parts shortage that can do a good job replacing that driver if you have a few days to wait. Plus no programming needed.
That was a tricky one with bad coils most likely caused by a sticking driver. Good find and admire your persistence.
Diagnostics is always challenging add to that trying to demonstrate to the viewers on good practice makes it doubly hard. Great case study S. never beat yourself especially when you get to the bottom of things whilst passing on precious knowledge. Thanks again guys and look forward to future videos. X.
Sherwood! Thanks for keeping it real... I just got my first 4 channel scope and this helps me know "The struggle is real".
Excellent lesson . Great repair !
Thanks Royalty Auto Service !
Intresting video, glad it ypu showed entire process, nice work!
I had a P1111 misfire error on my Kia Proceed Gt. I fired the parts cannon at it. Seems the Hyundai/Kia coils dont really last. Mine only has 60,000km on them. But looking online seems they age out at 9 year mark.
This car certainly unusual case. Great to see how a professional solves a very usual electronic problem properly and systemically.
Disconnect a new coil and check resistance between harness ground and chassis ground. Compare to same check on a factory coil. I'm willing to bet factory is no continuity, but replacement is near 0 ohms.
Theory: Engine ground is null. Old coils' primary ground was only through the chassis; losing engine ground caused them to fail. New coils can get a redundant primary ground through the control/harness.
Additional theory: The coil to the dead cylinder has already been previously replaced. It was initially firing by getting redundant ground from control. But that excess current damaged the ICM (or ECM). Therefore continuing to run the motor in its current state will soon see the remaining 3 cylinders go dead. Fix the motor ground first, then diagnose for bad ICM or ECM.
@MobileAutomotiveServices, auto tech vet here 30 years, you are 100% spot on.
have seen and rectified this same issue before.
a bad motor to chassis ground created a very high resistance to the Ignition coils primary grounding, this caused an internal ECM overload.
in my case it fried the ECM completely.
fix the motor ground first and a ECM replacement is required. cheers!
you ganed a new subsriber
Not a mechanic but enjoying learning new skills
That took quite an unexpected turn. I can kind of relate though, I had a jetboat in that had a VH45 Nissan V8 put in it dropped to me to get it wired up and running. It was removed from another boat as a "running powertrain" using an aftermarket ECU of unknown brand that was all wired up to the engine and just needed all the main powers/grounds etc all made up from the battery/ignition etc. Got everything wired, turned the key and it instantly blew a fuse which we traced to be the coil power feed. It is running 8 coils triggered through 2 external modules (1 per bank). Replaced the fuse and it instantly blew again, unplugged all the coils, and check the harness which all checked out fine. Plugged in 1 of the coils, replaced the fuse and current clamped the harness, that 1 coil was a constant 15 amp draw without a trigger signal and the power wire and coil were both getting pretty hot, had us scratching our heads for a bit. So no wonder it was blowing the fuse trying to draw potentially 120 amps when the coils were fed power. We suspect there is something not setup right in the ECU and it's fried several or all of the coils so the owner is going back to the guy he bought it all off to get some more info. Some of these things are sure set to test us.
Thanks for showing the whole video from start to finish
Very educational
Great diagnostic skills! Very thorough! You are an outstanding teacher!
Crank no starts can be brutal. I had one where after cylinder head job the cams were installed backwards. Had good compression fuel and spark. Engine was "in time". Was a 1.4 ecotec. Another engine had a good sounding crank but ended up having low compression across all cylinders.
I loved seeing the professor at work. I learned alot and had no problems following along with what he was explaining. That's the sign of a most excellent teacher. Also, I really enjoyed the longer content.
I was screaming at video to check the other coils. As you said due to one coil not working it should ran, but because it wasn't it either has to be coils or ECM. You did have a mind fade with this one, but its great you didn't edit it to show we are all human and make mistakes.
Agh! So wish I could call you our shop foreman, professor. Can’t express the gratitude for the detail you guys put in this video. Extremely helpful/educational. Hopefully the part 2 comes out soon. Can you come shop foreman for our dealer?
Hi Sherwood, You can use the TTL from the escope to toggle the ignition control signal on any coil to see if the coils fire..Then i would check the connection from the ecm to the ignition coils to see if there is continuity.
careful with ohms check. I like scope at pcm/ecm, and ignition coil. one channel each with over lay.
Nice work. Your diagnostic approach is solid.
I just wonder how you haven't gotten anything sucked in and torn off between the ring, watch, and bracelets. At least you got your hair tied back lol.
Most days it's all about the dance. I've done modules, coils and coil wiring repairs on these. The water might not have anything to do with it, hard to say.
Nice work in the end!
Great lesson Sherwood. Looking forward to part two. Thanks for sharing
I love the way you guys make your videos and the valuable information that you share about car maintenance. I’m a do-it-yourselfer and I gain a lot of insight into repairs and maintenance in every video.
Better than a Movie !! Thanks again for the great Content 🙂
I had something similar happen to me on a 13 cadillac ats when i washed the engine bay and was never able to start it (no spark) afterwards. Multiple shops and dealer checked with no success other than needing new engine. Towed back home and replayed what and why it happened. Reviewed areas washed and what could be effected and noticed a junction in the main harness in the area. Disconnected the junction and there was little water in the sealed connector. Used electrical cleaner and applied dielectric grease and fired right up.
Just have to investigate to find the simplest unsuspecting thing that cause this potential catastrophe (dealer:$12k motor). 🤷🏻♂️
Crank amplitude is going to increase with engine speed. They generate voltage based on speed, the higher the speed the higher the amplitude and frequency. You should of stopped after you saw injector pulses! But hey even the best of us go down the wrong rabbit hole sometimes! lol
Since you know that water was the cause, I would pull the ECM harnesses off the ECM and check the harnesses for water and corrosion in the connectors, and then examine the body of the ECM for cracks where water can get inside.
If you can open the ECM cover and search for water, a simple air gun to blow the water out of the ECM and then resealing the ECM is all it might need.
WD -40
I use Alldata at work and just caught myself trying to scroll the screen when you were looking at the wiring diagram... lol
me to lol
I would take the data from the module and save it to a file.
Then open the module up and see if there is a dry solder joint or a burned up resistor or a popped capacitor, it could be something that simple and if not you already saved the data to program a donor unit.
Love the channel sherwood, came over after a recommendation from eric o and im so glad he did.
Really appreciate the long format vids showing the entire thought process even if that means goin down the wrong road, cause thats what real people actually do in an every day work environment.
No body is perfect and lets face it, mistakes are the best teaching aid.
Keep up the good work and i look forward to the next one
excellant video, really appreciate you showing each step
I remember there is a TH-cam video about repair to ECMS. I Think Keith at L1 automotive training. Contact him. It should be a lot cheaper than getting a new one, also no wait forever getting one from the kia dealership.
Thank you for another honest diag process
“Intergalactic backordered” ❤👍🥇
Sin pulso de activación en la bobina #1 hizo revisar muchas cosas 😅, creo que de ahora en adelante comprobaré 2 bobinas a la vez... interesante. Saludos
Wow that was a tough one! Very good job troubleshooting.
1995-2024
What happened was. Went through a puddle in my $60,000 vehicle.
And cost me $6,000 and 2 weeks for a shop to figure out what happened. Oh then wait up to 3 years for parts on backorder.
Pre 1995
Went through a puddle in my $10,000 vehicle.
Waited maybe till the next day.(to dry out)
And go about my business.
New cars are junk bottomless money pits. But it saves you $3 a month in fuel.
Great video, excellent information, I think for the crank sensor amplitude will be higher if you connect one channel, the positive & the negative lead to the sensor instead of 2 channels
Man Sherwood looks like you could use a roll cart with a jarhead boom kit right about now 😂
I had a BMW with the n63 engine where one injector shorted out and caused a crank no start and once it was unplugged car started up! Took me a few hours to figure out 😅 and the Ecu on that bank had to be replaced also due to the driver getting shorter.
Should check the electrical connector at the module end.
Very impressive critical thinking and problem solving 🤝
Great work figuring this out. I enjoy trying to figure out the issue mentally as the video progresses to see if I'm correct. Love this content.
Side note, what kind of holster are you using for your flashlight? I like the setup for that and wonder if it'll fit my Streamlight Strion.
That was a rough one. Chased my butt more than once on electrical gremlins on large tonnage chillers (like you need for your shop) !
Hopefully a part 2. Have to buy some more popcorn.
For future reference, breeze through the repair info flow chart for cam/crank sensors and Kia/Hyundai are really good about having basic scope captures for reference. They're not perfect but they can verify your cranking/running amplitude.
Cool that you show all that process. Great video. Is is not possible to repair the ECM at a ECU Repair Shop? So you would have it back faster and no program needed? Perhaps just replace the driver chip.
love this type of detailed long videos. keep it up guys.
It’s probably just me but is anyone else getting blinded by the brightness when the camera is turned near anything white? Great video, just goes to show that even the Professor can be thrown down the rabbit hole like us. I would have totally put that on cylinder #1 and gone the same way.😂
Good video especially for new user.showing in detail trouble shooting
Thanks for sharing Sherwood. Send that module to Miac he can fix it if you need to get it done. Love watching the long ones
Awesome video thanks for the insight
Never knew you were in south east ga I’m stoked to hear that I’m a heavy equipment field tech in ga maybe I can check your shop out my mustang had a breaking issue no one has figured out yet .. same driver side rear pad wears uneven … pins lubricated and replaced, caliper replaced, hoses replaced everything people know it could be it hasn’t been so far it’s always the same pad on the same wheel within 2 weeks squeezing and Pad is worn out on the outside pad
Awe this is how I found my lil Mavis! She was only 2-3 weeks old, found her meowing in an engine…so young that I had to feed her goats milk and wipe her butt before and after each poop…and had to hide her in the EMS station during shift for weeks lol (medic here) but now shes growing like a weed, psycho as hell, but I still love her.
another good one had me glued to the PC and going to be late but had to watch this one close!
Sometimes the conditions that the customer states are red herrings , take everything with a grain of salt......
my shop is in Ohio, we get lots of Kias, Hyundias with intermittant spark sometimes a crank sensor code sometimes not, the problem is rust jacking, the plastic sensor only has one bolt, as the block corrodes the rust will push the sensor away from the crank, do not think it is the problem here, block looks too clean just wanted to share so someone may not have to spend hours like I did on the first one
Glued to my seat with this one. Wow!!!
Excellent video guys. I seem to remember one of Brandon Stecklers case studies was a vehicle that drove into a fuel station and then wouldnt start and it had somehow eaten all 4 COPs. I might be wrong though as its a good while back since i read it. Either way thanks for the content
Sherwoods never ending struggle with cables is so painful to watch... Every single time 😂
Bummer picking the one coil with a bad driver, persistence payed off in the end. Hopefully you have someone that can make that used module happen with some eeprom work.
for a southerner to say "it gets unbearably hot and humid", you can bank on that!
Try Chicago when it’s 95-100. We only have humidity. Was in Scottsdale since and my friend said it’s 98. Couldn’t even tell because of the dry heat.
Really great work sir!
Well 2 things first great video as usual, no sugar coating. I do enjoy all your videos . 2. I noticed you started with identifix than went to all data any reason why ? I'm trying to decide which one to get thank u
great instructional video Sherwood
Excellent video. I would test the terminal pin fit to #1 coil control wire, but if that 600 or 606 code comes back, it is more than likely PCM is trashed.
It also would be interesting to read the Description of Operation of the fuel control system on this car. Does it disable coils? Is there a PID for disabled cylinder?
Water can certainly short out multiple coils or PCM!
Very educational and interesting video for diy guy like me. Thank
Loved this video i like the extended versions
Don't beat yourself up Sherwood Remember it's not the mistakes that you make its the RECOVERY PERIOD VIA
I have been working on equipment for 50 year started with points and carbs to what we have now. My hard drive is overloaded and can’t take much more.
Out of curiosity, I would test that last coil to see if it is burned out as well. Minor info, but it would probably solidify the idea that some catastrophic pulse killed all 4 coils. If it's good, then what spared that one?
Never drive through water that can submerge the tail pipe.
Docking your boat requires submerging the tailpipe. It’s the intake that has to stay dry.
In out shop we go old school first powers and ground's to the sensors with a 1amp test lite to see if they ann carry a load then pull connectors check for water then break out the scanners and scopes
Great content brother congrats on the 100k
Congrats on hitting 100 K!
I dealt with a 2015 Kia K900 V8 and intermittently it would have misfires non-working coils and the crazy part it would move to different coils and the plugs would foul out for some plugs the THE GROUND CIRCUITS WE'RE THE PROBLEM THERE WAS PAINT ON THE CONNECTORS EVER SO SLIGHTLY I HAD TO SAND THE BODY AND THE CONNECTORS IN ORDER TO CORRECT I PERFORMED A VOLTAGE DROP ORIGINALLY AND IT DID NOT SHOW ANY PROBLEM⁉️ intermittently switched some of the cylinders as far as the coils ceasing to function due to the poor grounding not all of them stop though unfortunately like what happened to you I really can't believe how this car could have run for 75,000 miles without this problem showing up but in fact that's what it was I saved some of the info to this day in my launch of all the goofy stuff that took place😂😂
😅😅 2:51 2:51 2:51 😊😊
@@PlanoAlfa yea, i've heard they used painted ground mount locations, does kind of seem that it may gave caused a spike, I would be interested to see the voltage drop of the engine ground while the circuit is loaded.
Surprised that high level shop doesn’t have ac. I’m spoiled now idk if I can work in another shop
Without ac. lol nice video guys! Something spiked that computer. Maybe shorted 1 coil possibly.
love this video great job tks
Good case study. Just have a question. Anything wrong with liquid tape? When I put nail polish on my nails, it never seems very resilient. It gets rather dry and brittle and kind of flakes off. That's why I like liquid tape on wires, because it's more flexible. I trust it more to stay on for the long run. Awesome video though. I enjoyed this one quite a bit. Thank you,
you should be able to read the data off the module's eeprom, save it, and then write the data back onto a used module. it works fine here.
That’s our plan. 👍
I am curious to know what programmer do you guys use for those PCMs?
@@henrytavbitbox, fox flash and pcm flasher all work good.
@@theroyaltyautoservice don't ,remember it had a Pending P0606,it might be corrupted,greetings from Aruba...
Tough one!!
great stuff Professor !!!!!!!!!!!
I like to keep notes while I am watching. You are only prooving to the non scope guys why they dont use a scope right away, struggle on video is not needed my friend. 4 Channel, use a single amp clamp on both the injectors and coils since they do not fire at the same time they will not interfere with each other, check power OK, ck GND ok, put your other 3 channels where you like after the amp clamp and monitor what is important. You know where to come back to PWR and GND and you know how to do it quickly if you feel one is intermittent, no worries. If you have spark, you will get a 5th channel for free with the spark noise on the scope anyways. AND you are getting a bit beyond 4 minutes LOL. You are a Bernie Thompson fan Brother, MAX OUT your 8 Channels and knock out this diag in one go to include the CMP CKP sensor wires and move over to PWR and GND if you feel its needed, you are questioning yourself on maybe the CKP or CMP sensor it seems like. When it comes to PWR and GND we can also just backprobe a multimeter for added security if the 8 Channel is MAXED OUT. The person who took the KNOWN GOOD pattern did and OK job, the best way to view a 60-2 tooth pattern is to show 3+1 missing tooth sections on the CKP, 3 being 720 degrees and another added section to insure we get the full CMP alignments with no mistakes, not all vehicles have easy to see the alignments so to be sure we dont cut something off, simply capture 3+1 on this type of system, some other systems need 5+1. Once we know where the main alignment section is needed, then we can zoom in on the specific section to count teeth a bit more easily.
Thank you for the indepth analysis, it was not a waste of scope time nor did you beat the dead horse, now its time to get after the missing ignition control signal. Your 3.5V Peak to Peak is cranking and I must assume the known good waveform is idleing so the P2P is not going to be the same and ought not be compared. If you have a library of other similar KIA waveforms, I might try to look up a cranking P2P on a no start similar engine?Thank you for rechecking for codes once in a while. Its not typical to do a SUMMARY of what work you have already completed, its a time waster and if we work flat rate, we dont have time to do a summary Brother plus it makes a video much longer than most viewers like to watch which is an average of only 20 minutes please unless its a timing chain job step by step procedure with all new parts listed, alignments, torq values, etc.
Different car makers tell the Service Info guys to draw their connectors in different orientation, this is something we all need to learn. How does GM do it, how does KIA do it, etc. I like your honesty being able to say you should have kept notes (live IVAN from PHAD, bad memories cost our customers money and that is not fair) and TH-camrs loose videos everyday. Notes also help us the next time on the same vehicle with the same/similar problems so we can do it twice as fast and charge the same fees. What is a possible danger of backprobing an ECM, going to deep and shorting out the probe to the body of the ECM. You also found the other problem of cross probing, this is why pierce probes were invented but they also have a problem of not seeing a bad pin fitment in the connector to ECM contact or some jerk pulled the copper wire out of the pin in the connector so even a jumper is not going to help. I have had to go inside the ECM to connect to an output PCB terminal but that is not going to help in this case as the missing signal is an imput so jumping to the PCB terminal would help and then finding the bad wire or pin would be next.
Who the hell would have thought driving through water will short out 3 coils and fry a driver on #1, WOW, but I am still a fan of the Amp Clamp to capture all coils and injectors on one channel. Thanks for the Rabbit Hole experience. I must highly recommend watching many more of Bernies videos, I have watched 100% and annotated them in my private library, cheers Brother.
We love your iPhone camera.
Sherwood I learned from your mistake thanks
Great case study,