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Most modern fantasy shows have excessive amounts of gratuitous violence and doinking boinking and I don’t like it! I personally blame game of thrones for all of that!
@@MarshalMarrs-eu9yh game of thrones is incredible, if you don't like it's personal but the most important thing that it's storytelling the show and the books do really well
My 10 year old has always loved reading. Recently she began reading Harry Potter. When she discovered that they made movies she wanted to watch them. I suggested that she read the book before watching the movie. She listened to me and now she enjoys talking about the differences in the books and movies. I enjoy her ability to compare and contrast them. Our most recent book to movie was The Fantastic Mr. Fox. I never read the Roald Dahl book but my daughter has and she loves to talk during the movie and shout what they did to stay true to the book and what they did different and why she likes which one better. I enjoy these moments with her ♡ We also listen to your videos just for fun & next year will add it to our homeschooling :-)
Great tip to have her read the books first. I personally love both, but there certainly is a difference 🙂 Same is true for the Lord of the Rings. I mean, we have entire characters that are featured somewhat prominent in the books not appear at all in the trilogy for example (like Tom Bombadil)
With a lot of modern cinematic fantasy,I find there is a genuine lack of sincerity and respect for the genre; a lot of films feel like they want to make fun of the genre and the people who like it and while a bit of light jabs is all well and good, it comes off as condescending and treating the genre and its stories like a joke. Other times the Game of Thrones effect causes studios to think we need gratuitous swearing, sex and violence and moral grey to make fantasy profitable
@@lordinquisitor6233 Well *friggin* said! It needs respect for the genre and the proper suspension of disbelief, but they can never overreact or overcorrect by pandering to nerds OR condescending to non-nerds/general audiences. And GoT, oh, it knows its audience (or at least did before the disasterpiece of the last season), but the sex and violence, the swearing, always counted me out of their ranks. As much as I want great fantasy stories, I fail to see what actually showing that stuff alongside adds to it. Imply that it happens, show the scheming villains, but it honestly doesn’t need to leave the subtext to make us cheer for the heroes louder.
The reason for the success of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the rings, amongst other reasons was the respect he and his writing team had for Tolkien’s work and while they made changes like omitting Tom Bombadil, he made it clear he was trying to **adapt** Tolkien, not subvert or change what Tolkien made for the sake of ‘modern audiences’. The current series (Witcher, Rings of Power and GOT) held no respect for the original source material (Cavil famously being a massive witcher fan and conflicting with Netflix who didn’t give a fig) and think they know better than what they have being given.
@@TheIronarm don't get me wrong I love ASOIAF and the first four seasons of GOT but it's exhausting. Everything is always grim and doom and gloom. And while that can be great, it never lets up. There's never any respite. There never seems to be any light at the end of the tunnel. And it kind of kills the enjoyment. It doesn't make the world feel more realistic, it mostly makes me wonder how any of these characters keep going instead of just offing themselves.
@@VampireNinjaBunnies yeah, grimdark is not, and never has been, enjoyable to me. One of my favorite fantasy movies is Legend, and good golly does that get bleak and scary in the middle, kind of a given with Ridley Scott. Yet literally within the last 20 minutes, with the freaking living embodiment of evil beating the hero soundly, all the heroes working together blast him with a beam of light and are able to banish him into the void, rescue the princess, heal the unicorn, and restore the world to beauty. So cathartic. And I think beyond the scary makeup and settings, there might be one or two minor cusses. It would be no better and likely be worse and less enjoyable if they tried to give it an R rating, like most of the other sword n sorcery from the ‘80s.
I would jutst say, Hollywood has ruined storytelling. It is not just fantasy... I am completely checked out. I am spending my time tracking down films and series I enjoyed growing up.
When they fired Henry Cavill they said it was because he was too obsessed with the source material, and when he argued with the producers they accused him of misogyny for doing it. They tried to destroy his career and besmirch his character, just because he was an actual fan of the material. Rings of Power could have been so good, but they made changes that make no sense, not just in lore but in characterization. The way the writers portrayed these characters makes no sense and seemed like character assassination. There is a messed up idea in Hollywood that a faithful adaptation of material is boring and they need to be changed. The show writers want to show their own creativity by rewriting things. In my opinion, if they want to tell a different story, they should tell a different story - *their* story with *their* characters! If they want to show their talent and creativity when adapting someone else's story, they should show it by faithfully adapting it to a new medium, which does take talent. Lately there is a bad trend where some studio buys a property, then the writers of the new adaptation deliberately destroy the original characters "because they need to be torn down" and spread hate online for the original fans of whatever franchise it is. It's really just a continuation of the older trend of Hollywood writers throwing out the original book because they think it is more "creative" to do that. It is a reaction where they show open contempt for the original material and the fans thereof, which is kind of nuts IMHO.
I recently finished the Mistborn trilogy for the first time. I realized-I don’t _want_ a big budget live action Hollywood movie. At most I’d like to see a comic book adaptation or animated series.
So this might be a bit of a tangent, since I'm about to mention a video game or two, but they have stories too and I have noticed that not moving too fast has noticeable effects on the way the audience receives the story. First might be a bit surprising, but it is Borderlands 2. There is a scene which marks the end of the first act. The city is being bombarded with artillery, everyone is panicking, all the characters are rushing to do damage control, then the climax is that the entire city gets teleported away to a new location avoiding total destruction by the artillery barrage. The player watches the city vanish into thin air and hears the last artillery shells strike the empty ground. At that moment the developers stopped the music. They stopped most the sound effects too. The only thing you hear is your own footsteps as you walk away from the scene. Maybe it sounds crazy, but that choice, to mute everything except your footsteps seems like a brilliant choice to me. It gives your brain a moment to catch up, let what you just saw sink in, and to realize you are now walking in an entirely different world, and into act two. The other game I can think of that also pauses the action to great effect is the first Red Dead Redemption. Upon finally completing your mission across the American frontier and being able to reunite with your wife and son, all the action stops. All you do is begin riding your horse toward a home you've never even seen yet. Then a slow, simple, but almost haunting song begins to play. An acoustic guitar and a singer who's voice sounds lonely and exhausted. He sings about how long he's been lost, but has finally realized that the only compass he needs points back toward his home and his love. For several minutes, that's all you do is ride your horse and listen to this simple, sad, but sweet song. Nothing is dramatic is happening, but it makes the impact of the moment so much stronger. I think the point I'm getting at, is the the storytellers in these examples give the audience a moment to feel. Because even a beautifully crafted world with good characters and a good story won't stay with you, if you never have time to feel any of it.
Great examples. Video games are certainly something to mention as well, yes. Just look at Bioware's downfall by dropping storytelling quality and focusing more and more on action. One of the reasons I am SO happy about the success of Baldur's Gate 3 which proved that a slow-paced, turn-based, story-focused, single-player game can be hugely successful after all 🙂
Elves as fashionistas and orcs as police. Reminds me of Shadowrun. But that setting is far more about gritty no-nonsense than cramming in modern politics. It's there, like the discrimination of the orks, but it fits better. About rushed narratives, Peter Jackson first tried to sell the books as a two films. They said, "Nah, this is three films." Unrushing for great results. There's a reason fantasy novels are longer than other genres. Cavill carried.
I feel that Hollywood is only taking the setting and characters for marketinng and then putting their usual plotstructure over it. A lovestory for the girls, one or two great creatures or battlescenes for the boys and thats it. Doesn't matter which world they adapt its always the same hollow vase they only paint the outside with other characters for marketing.
This is foremost a live action problem. Screenwriters when it comes to live action fantasy aren't that good at worldbuilding compared to prose writers while the set production staff tends to be more meh than what description paragraphs makes us visualize. It's rare to have a film or show that stands out. Lastly adaptions sell more than original ideas But animation screenwriters and animators are closer to feeling like a book.
Yes, that is exactly why I think that the original authors - or at least experts - should be consulted throughout to make sure that lack of insight doesn't end up ruining everything.
@@End-phoenix I’m working on it… I have no resources, no free time, and barely a support structure, but I do have a lifelong love of fantasy cinema, a detailed world I’ve been cultivating since I was 7, and most of a book that I am perfectly aware might be derided as children’s fluff… but I’m working on it. And I know it’s not just me. We’ll right this ship someday, just you wait
Couldn't agree more. I'd wish more film makers would dare to venture into original epic fantasy realms. Doesn't always have to be Rings of Power or the Witcher type of budget of course. Understandable that studios want to see some proof here first (like an established IP), but you don't need hundreds of millions to create a good movie.
Frieren is overrated and not due the acclaim it has gotten. I originally thought Frieren was going to be an artistic exploration of loneliness and self-growth that was placed in a fantasy setting more akin to something like a Ghibli film, especially with the trailer highlighting her alone journey around the world. Instead of the Indepth, vague, adult show I thought I was going to watch, it ran through the entire course of its adult themes and depth in the first four episodes and went on to air the most simple, basic, fantasy show that fed you all its themes and messages by spoon feeding akin to Dora the explorer. There are many instances where it was so boring that I couldn't finish the episode before it was already a couple of weeks later. The flashbacks of the hero's party are the worst directed parts of the entire show, with characters like Himmel being very boring and lacking in depth, only appearing for a couple of minutes to slowly say some inspirational quote from Tumblr and pretend like its deep. The show tries way too hard to be deep and philosophical but fails miserably and feels cheap. The art and animation in the show is also very good and sometimes bad. Everyone suffers from same face syndrome and the rigid movement feels like a modern, western, splined animation where in all the frames, everyone has the exact same forward-facing look. The biggest struggle in modern animation is the clarity of the animation, which studios like Mappa and shows like Frieren struggle with. Clear animation is the best animation, and it is more appreciated than stupid, flashy, hard to follow fight scenes that are extremely out of place. The disparity between the no action scenes and the action scenes when it comes to animation makes it feel like I'm watching an entirely different show. The non action scenes are so dull, and no character ever moves outside of their model sheets and the action scenes make me want to vomit and give me vertigo like riding a roller coaster. There is another fantasy show called "Dungeon Meshi", or "Delicious in Dungeon," which does a far better job with animation, directing, writing, and made me even tear up at some of the moments, of which Frieren only makes me cringe. Unfortunately, because some high profile youtuber didn't review it, it is not as popular. Frieren ultimately tries to be something it is not and fails miserably, therefore I see no merit or reason as to why the show is as popular as it is aside from all the viewers not having any taste in quality. That doesn't mean it is all bad though, the art is some areas are extremely good, and the directing in the first four episodes were the best in the entire series, but that is about it.
A few years ago i had hoped that someday there would be a show for joe abercrombies the first law trilogy. Now i hope that no Hollywood exec find out it exist:(
I won't lie. I get pretty tired of all the complaining. I don't always find fans' insights cohesive, so when you kept talking about fantasy being "robbed" by Hollywood, and made the salient point that most times we're given an exercise in budget over substance, I thought for sure you'd complain next about Hollywood taking a more "gritty" and "realistic" approach to fantasy, which would be an antithetical argument. I'm satisfied with the nuanced arguments you made instead, although I think it's more than a little unfortunate that your only examples of fantasy "done right" are among the most expensive things ever made. That's not ideal.
Let's also complain about the technology in the movies. If we're willing to assume an 1858 Remington with a swing-out cylinder, we then have to also accept that it swings out to either side, depending on which hand the gun is for. And try not to mix the left gun with the right. And why doesn't the cylinder in the kid's gun fit the frame? If your going to depict weapons, think about the ramifications of the technology. It has to be consistently practical and rational, no matter how cool. If Schwarzenegger complains about the weight, the sword is too heavy for a real blade.
Adaption is an alternative word for Adapation which is less used, yes, but has existed (based on earliest records) since the early 1600s :-) There are some interpretations where adaption is more focused on environmental/biological influences rather than a straight synonym for Adaptation, so in general, Adaptation would have been more clear to use here. I usually do so as well, guess here, the flow of the shorter alternative just came out naturally. In the end, it is a real word and not completely incorrect in this context either but I'll make sure to try and remember AdapTAtion for the next time again 🙂
I was totally with you until you use the new Dune movies as examples of doing things right. I totally disagree, admittedly it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but it's still far from good.
Adaptation is a veneer on a project used to draw in existing fandom. There are a number of good stories which are bad adaptations, and some others which would have been pretty good stories if they weren't tied to existing IP
I'm unfortunately becoming less and less interested as well. Even Rings of Power I decided to not watch through the entire Season 2 anymore. Simply feels like a waste of time (for me personally at least).
Bright excited me as a Shadowrun rpg fan, but it just wasn't it. If you're not familiar with Shadowrun check it out. The lore and worldbuilding has been taken seriously from the start in the 1980s. One source book on cyberware was my introduction to molecular biology and genetics - these books were written by nerds. In a nutshell, it's Cyberpunk 2077 with dragons and magic. The concept is that Earth goes through 5,000 year cycles where magic waxes and wanes. Around the year 2011 magic returned and normal creatures, including humans, mutated into magical versions (elves, dwarves, orcs and trolls). Spirits from other planes are a real threat and there's conspiracy theories about dragons trying to take over the world that they believe they still own - dragons hibernated until the magic returned, now they own corporations and run for public office.
4:32 so far we're just railing against adaptation. These are inherent problems when you are adapting anything, the nature of changing media from book to film/tv means some things have to sacrificed e.g. a characters pages worth of inner thoughts and turmoil does not translate well to screen, the vast history of a world which can be explained abstractly has to be communicated through dialogue which can be clunky. If adaptation was easy they would all be 1:1 recreations that would always be good. Given how rare this is shows how difficult this is. Even the best adaptations that people laud have significant inaccuracies when compared to the source material which breeds detraction from certain hardcore fans. What is the solution? Just never make any adaptations? Even if we ignore how many "original ideas" are remixes of even older tales, isn’t this just gatekeeping art and stifling creativity?
i think short form content, and profits are largely to blame. Let’s be honest, when watching netflix everyone has their phone next to them, therefore these studios may feel they need constant action and can’t have slow world building or else they may lose the viewers attention. Also I think something like rings of power would need more episodes to properly build the world, and no one in the production wants to be paid less to add more episodes. I think the improper adaptations of books are relying people not knowing the source material and thinking people just want something to watch to escape from reality. Also rings of power has to battle licensing rights. I blame media as a whole and not just the studios, no one realizes how important art is and how we will never have this moment again to tell this story during this time.
The shortening of seasons is something I've disliked for quite a while. And it does contribute to the problem of "rushing through" when it comes to TV shows, yes. The 10 episodes approach was already lacking for the depth some shows needed. But now we moved to 8 and sometimes 6 episodes while the budgets per season keep climbing. The focus is on the wrong things here, at least from my opinion.
Yeah, that is true. I found the movies to be quite well done too. Not sure how accurate the adaptations were from the top of my head but the movies delivered upon what's necessary for compelling worldbuilding and storytelling (at least for me).
Rings of Power didn't have the source material. The Tolkien estate only let them use Lord of The Rings, and the appendices. The Estate hamstrung the project before it started.
If they couldn't get the actual rights, they should not have made the show. They could've just walked away from it and went looking for something else to adapt.
Little corrections... Amazon does not in fact have the source material. Tolkien Estate only sold the rights for The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings trilogy. Everything about the Second Age is found in The Silmarillion, which they have announced will never sell the rights of. The Rings of Power's greatest flaw was to try to tell an alternate story of something we already know of. And even if the plot of the show was better, it would've never live up to the expectations of most Tolkien fans. TRoP was doomed to be compared to both Jackson films (which were hated by Christopher and Tolkien Estate both) and the books without much of a chance.
Great comment - and I could have been clearer here, yes. To me the entire choice of going for that Age when they have the Source Material for such much else, was a misguided decision from the beginning. Either I can use the actual lore or I'd have chosen a different approach to a Lord of the Rings show.
@@TheTaleTinkererI think it’s something we have to just accept at this point, nothing will be gained by constantly banging the "it doesn’t match the source material" drum. I know, you know, everyone knows that they have taken liberties with the source material/are not following the Silmarillion. Does it actually matter?
I would consider Bright an interesting experiment far more than I would consider it a failed story. Had it just been a classic fantasy world with two knights uncovering a magical evil plot, we would not complain. Setting it in present day with modern dynamics and hoops to jump through added a novel perspective to try and consider, one that many simply refused to do because they refuse to believe fantasy can exist outside of the old times. Otherwise, the story needed much more polish and further revisions before it could hope to be well-received. It was interesting nonetheless.
Don't get me wrong, it was a great experiment on paper. I loved it as an idea when announced and was really looking forward to the film. The problem - with so many fantasy movies/shows - was the execution in the end. And a bad/mediocre movie doesn't get better just because the original idea was good 🙂
To me Bright sounds like an intetesting concept for a TV series. That brings the Norwegian series "Beforeigners" to my mind, in which people from the past get to modern day Oslo through a hole in time thus creating a lot of problems to deal with. And not only that, the whole Plot evolves around a murder case with a victim from the Stone Age and a female police officer from the Viking era struggling with Anger issues. What I liked about Beforeigners was the complexity of the plot and its slow pacing allowing you enough time to dive into the story and to connect emotionally with the characters.
"Had it just been a classic fantasy world with two knights uncovering a magical evil plot, we would not complain." Yes we would, because it would still be dull and poorly conceived. Do you remember all of those Italian and Argentinian-produced Conan knock-offs that came out in the early 80's? Like Deathstalker, Sorceress, Ator, The Warrior and Sorceress, Barbarians, The Throne of Fire, The Invincible Barbarian, etc ? None of these movies are regarded as hidden gems today. Even the few that have deserved cult followings, like The Sword and the Sorcerer, Hawk the Slayer, and Hundra still aren't beloved without irony. Big Trouble in Little China, Underworld, and The Last Witch Hunter are easy example of Urban Fantasy movies that are better than Bright.
I was really looking forward to the movie as well, back then when it was announced. Looked like such a cool blend, unfortunately, the execution lacked 😞
For me it's always the action focused scenes with the revolver, some are even somewhat cool, the movie put together as a whole just didn't fit the books/overall themes 🙂
Yes, I did reply to a different comment here as well. I could have been clearer on that. What I meant in detail was that they had so much source material that could have been used for amazing stories, but they ended up producing something mediocre - which probably also is due to the fact that they don't have the Silmarillion rights and as such made up some form of alternative here rather than staying true to Tolkien's works.
@TheTaleTinkerer good video though 👌🏽 and I agree on the witcher also. The problem with this screenwriters that want a known ip to tell their own stories
@@RhmnLegoI was willing to give the Witcher the benefit if the doubt on a number of things and then you hear things like, we killed off this character specifically because we thought it would be impactful for a prominent book character to die, rather than a nameless one….. which is just weird. It means that the only people who will have any sort of reaction will be book fans, excluding everyone else, and whilst I’m sure book fans will have been shocked to see him die before any of his cool book moments, I can imagine their second reaction would be anything other than angry. Especially as it is comes across as him receiving karmic punishment for being mean to Gerald and Ciri a few scenes earlier.
The most important part is to draw in the audience, to hook them. If I want to see nice pictures I search for some admire them and then just forget about them again. I refuse to watch GoT because I don’t want my hunger for story ruined by special. I also see my own story and wonder if I should provide at least a picture to the more alien characters. The aliens I call noxar in the story could benefit from both things. 12:24 I have written nearly 60 pages for a characters trauma recovery and how this affects her and her relationship with a creature that has nurtured her threw out this entire time. I have integrated the creatures mission planing as something at the edge of the nyras recovery arc and will be slowly pushed into the center once she has recovered some more.
@@TheTaleTinkerer well I suck at reading. I listen to the audio books. I d rather let my imagination play instead of getting fed pictures. But if you can recommend it I will give it a go.
I honestly thought you were gonna do the lazy “ Anti-Woke” grift when talking about fantasy( IE, black people existing in a show “breaks immersion”) but I like how you used the bright example and it made your criticism complex and multifaceted.
Adaption? Is that a word? I’ll have to check on that later. But yeah, everything else you’re saying is dead on. Rings of Power… I so very much want to like it, but the inconsistency… the nicest thing I can say, my disbelief is not suspended, which is a fatal pronunciation for any and all fantasy….😢
@@TRYCLOPS1 @theironarm Adaption is an alternative word for Adapation which is less used, yes, but has existed (based on earliest records) since the early 1600s :-) There are some interpretations where adaption is more focused on environmental/biological influences rather than a straight synonym for Adaptation, so in general, Adaptation would have been more clear to use here. I usually do so as well, guess here, the flow of the shorter alternative just came out naturally. In the end, it is a real word and not completely incorrect in this context either but I'll make sure to try and remember AdapTAtion for the next time again 🙂
I somewhat included it (for myself) in the modernization topic. You are not incorrect of course, but I find that particular term and topic so heavily politically loaded that I didn't want to include it prominently. While I do want to comment on storytelling related things every now and then or even do case studies of existing works, the channel here is still focused on practical advice for storytelling, worldbuilding and fantasy writing - so I want to avoid having my videos become too heavily focused on political commentary. And anything related to the term "woke", at least from what I've seen on TH-cam and elsewhere, is full of emotion and politics. If that makes sense somehow 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer I went back and watched the video again, yes you did. You divided the subject into different parts, to obscure the politically charged term. Very smart to avoid the activists attention. Apologies for bringing up the term, was drunk.
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Most modern fantasy shows have excessive amounts of gratuitous violence and doinking boinking and I don’t like it! I personally blame game of thrones for all of that!
@@MarshalMarrs-eu9yh game of thrones is incredible, if you don't like it's personal but the most important thing that it's storytelling the show and the books do really well
My 10 year old has always loved reading. Recently she began reading Harry Potter. When she discovered that they made movies she wanted to watch them. I suggested that she read the book before watching the movie. She listened to me and now she enjoys talking about the differences in the books and movies. I enjoy her ability to compare and contrast them. Our most recent book to movie was The Fantastic Mr. Fox. I never read the Roald Dahl book but my daughter has and she loves to talk during the movie and shout what they did to stay true to the book and what they did different and why she likes which one better. I enjoy these moments with her ♡ We also listen to your videos just for fun & next year will add it to our homeschooling :-)
Great tip to have her read the books first. I personally love both, but there certainly is a difference 🙂
Same is true for the Lord of the Rings. I mean, we have entire characters that are featured somewhat prominent in the books not appear at all in the trilogy for example (like Tom Bombadil)
With a lot of modern cinematic fantasy,I find there is a genuine lack of sincerity and respect for the genre; a lot of films feel like they want to make fun of the genre and the people who like it and while a bit of light jabs is all well and good, it comes off as condescending and treating the genre and its stories like a joke. Other times the Game of Thrones effect causes studios to think we need gratuitous swearing, sex and violence and moral grey to make fantasy profitable
@@lordinquisitor6233 Well *friggin* said! It needs respect for the genre and the proper suspension of disbelief, but they can never overreact or overcorrect by pandering to nerds OR condescending to non-nerds/general audiences. And GoT, oh, it knows its audience (or at least did before the disasterpiece of the last season), but the sex and violence, the swearing, always counted me out of their ranks. As much as I want great fantasy stories, I fail to see what actually showing that stuff alongside adds to it. Imply that it happens, show the scheming villains, but it honestly doesn’t need to leave the subtext to make us cheer for the heroes louder.
The reason for the success of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the rings, amongst other reasons was the respect he and his writing team had for Tolkien’s work and while they made changes like omitting Tom Bombadil, he made it clear he was trying to **adapt** Tolkien, not subvert or change what Tolkien made for the sake of ‘modern audiences’. The current series (Witcher, Rings of Power and GOT) held no respect for the original source material (Cavil famously being a massive witcher fan and conflicting with Netflix who didn’t give a fig) and think they know better than what they have being given.
They don't really care about what you want or need, do they? Don't they just feed you whatever nonsense they want to manipulate the masses with?
@@TheIronarm don't get me wrong I love ASOIAF and the first four seasons of GOT but it's exhausting. Everything is always grim and doom and gloom. And while that can be great, it never lets up. There's never any respite. There never seems to be any light at the end of the tunnel. And it kind of kills the enjoyment. It doesn't make the world feel more realistic, it mostly makes me wonder how any of these characters keep going instead of just offing themselves.
@@VampireNinjaBunnies yeah, grimdark is not, and never has been, enjoyable to me. One of my favorite fantasy movies is Legend, and good golly does that get bleak and scary in the middle, kind of a given with Ridley Scott. Yet literally within the last 20 minutes, with the freaking living embodiment of evil beating the hero soundly, all the heroes working together blast him with a beam of light and are able to banish him into the void, rescue the princess, heal the unicorn, and restore the world to beauty. So cathartic. And I think beyond the scary makeup and settings, there might be one or two minor cusses. It would be no better and likely be worse and less enjoyable if they tried to give it an R rating, like most of the other sword n sorcery from the ‘80s.
I would jutst say, Hollywood has ruined storytelling. It is not just fantasy... I am completely checked out. I am spending my time tracking down films and series I enjoyed growing up.
When they fired Henry Cavill they said it was because he was too obsessed with the source material, and when he argued with the producers they accused him of misogyny for doing it. They tried to destroy his career and besmirch his character, just because he was an actual fan of the material. Rings of Power could have been so good, but they made changes that make no sense, not just in lore but in characterization. The way the writers portrayed these characters makes no sense and seemed like character assassination. There is a messed up idea in Hollywood that a faithful adaptation of material is boring and they need to be changed. The show writers want to show their own creativity by rewriting things. In my opinion, if they want to tell a different story, they should tell a different story - *their* story with *their* characters! If they want to show their talent and creativity when adapting someone else's story, they should show it by faithfully adapting it to a new medium, which does take talent. Lately there is a bad trend where some studio buys a property, then the writers of the new adaptation deliberately destroy the original characters "because they need to be torn down" and spread hate online for the original fans of whatever franchise it is. It's really just a continuation of the older trend of Hollywood writers throwing out the original book because they think it is more "creative" to do that. It is a reaction where they show open contempt for the original material and the fans thereof, which is kind of nuts IMHO.
I recently finished the Mistborn trilogy for the first time. I realized-I don’t _want_ a big budget live action Hollywood movie. At most I’d like to see a comic book adaptation or animated series.
Animation has a lot of advantages. A big budget live action adaptation COULD do it justice, but what are the odds?
Yeah animation could do it better
Hollywood was never about fantasy but social engineering from it's very beginning.
Which kinda points towards the problem, yes 🙂
This is everything I feel about this “modern” era of entertainment
This must be why nobody liked the movie Bright.
So this might be a bit of a tangent, since I'm about to mention a video game or two, but they have stories too and I have noticed that not moving too fast has noticeable effects on the way the audience receives the story. First might be a bit surprising, but it is Borderlands 2. There is a scene which marks the end of the first act. The city is being bombarded with artillery, everyone is panicking, all the characters are rushing to do damage control, then the climax is that the entire city gets teleported away to a new location avoiding total destruction by the artillery barrage. The player watches the city vanish into thin air and hears the last artillery shells strike the empty ground. At that moment the developers stopped the music. They stopped most the sound effects too. The only thing you hear is your own footsteps as you walk away from the scene. Maybe it sounds crazy, but that choice, to mute everything except your footsteps seems like a brilliant choice to me. It gives your brain a moment to catch up, let what you just saw sink in, and to realize you are now walking in an entirely different world, and into act two.
The other game I can think of that also pauses the action to great effect is the first Red Dead Redemption. Upon finally completing your mission across the American frontier and being able to reunite with your wife and son, all the action stops. All you do is begin riding your horse toward a home you've never even seen yet. Then a slow, simple, but almost haunting song begins to play. An acoustic guitar and a singer who's voice sounds lonely and exhausted. He sings about how long he's been lost, but has finally realized that the only compass he needs points back toward his home and his love. For several minutes, that's all you do is ride your horse and listen to this simple, sad, but sweet song. Nothing is dramatic is happening, but it makes the impact of the moment so much stronger.
I think the point I'm getting at, is the the storytellers in these examples give the audience a moment to feel. Because even a beautifully crafted world with good characters and a good story won't stay with you, if you never have time to feel any of it.
Great examples. Video games are certainly something to mention as well, yes. Just look at Bioware's downfall by dropping storytelling quality and focusing more and more on action.
One of the reasons I am SO happy about the success of Baldur's Gate 3 which proved that a slow-paced, turn-based, story-focused, single-player game can be hugely successful after all 🙂
Saying what needs to be said ... articulately. Bravo. Kudos!
Elves as fashionistas and orcs as police. Reminds me of Shadowrun. But that setting is far more about gritty no-nonsense than cramming in modern politics. It's there, like the discrimination of the orks, but it fits better.
About rushed narratives, Peter Jackson first tried to sell the books as a two films. They said, "Nah, this is three films." Unrushing for great results. There's a reason fantasy novels are longer than other genres.
Cavill carried.
The same is happening in game development. Graphics are prioritized at the expense of everything else.
I feel that Hollywood is only taking the setting and characters for marketinng and then putting their usual plotstructure over it. A lovestory for the girls, one or two great creatures or battlescenes for the boys and thats it. Doesn't matter which world they adapt its always the same hollow vase they only paint the outside with other characters for marketing.
This is foremost a live action problem.
Screenwriters when it comes to live action fantasy aren't that good at worldbuilding compared to prose writers while the set production staff tends to be more meh than what description paragraphs makes us visualize. It's rare to have a film or show that stands out. Lastly adaptions sell more than original ideas
But animation screenwriters and animators are closer to feeling like a book.
Yes, that is exactly why I think that the original authors - or at least experts - should be consulted throughout to make sure that lack of insight doesn't end up ruining everything.
I hope we can have more good fantasy cinema, not only adaptation, but also originals.
@@End-phoenix I’m working on it… I have no resources, no free time, and barely a support structure, but I do have a lifelong love of fantasy cinema, a detailed world I’ve been cultivating since I was 7, and most of a book that I am perfectly aware might be derided as children’s fluff… but I’m working on it. And I know it’s not just me. We’ll right this ship someday, just you wait
Couldn't agree more. I'd wish more film makers would dare to venture into original epic fantasy realms. Doesn't always have to be Rings of Power or the Witcher type of budget of course.
Understandable that studios want to see some proof here first (like an established IP), but you don't need hundreds of millions to create a good movie.
@@TheIronarm Good luck with that, I really hope it works out.
well i mean yeah, hollywood's been ruining lots of things lately
Fantasy currently only exists in animated media right now, Frieren being everything that we’ve lost over the last 15-20 years
Frieren is overrated and not due the acclaim it has gotten. I originally thought Frieren was going to be an artistic exploration of loneliness and self-growth that was placed in a fantasy setting more akin to something like a Ghibli film, especially with the trailer highlighting her alone journey around the world. Instead of the Indepth, vague, adult show I thought I was going to watch, it ran through the entire course of its adult themes and depth in the first four episodes and went on to air the most simple, basic, fantasy show that fed you all its themes and messages by spoon feeding akin to Dora the explorer. There are many instances where it was so boring that I couldn't finish the episode before it was already a couple of weeks later.
The flashbacks of the hero's party are the worst directed parts of the entire show, with characters like Himmel being very boring and lacking in depth, only appearing for a couple of minutes to slowly say some inspirational quote from Tumblr and pretend like its deep. The show tries way too hard to be deep and philosophical but fails miserably and feels cheap.
The art and animation in the show is also very good and sometimes bad. Everyone suffers from same face syndrome and the rigid movement feels like a modern, western, splined animation where in all the frames, everyone has the exact same forward-facing look. The biggest struggle in modern animation is the clarity of the animation, which studios like Mappa and shows like Frieren struggle with. Clear animation is the best animation, and it is more appreciated than stupid, flashy, hard to follow fight scenes that are extremely out of place. The disparity between the no action scenes and the action scenes when it comes to animation makes it feel like I'm watching an entirely different show. The non action scenes are so dull, and no character ever moves outside of their model sheets and the action scenes make me want to vomit and give me vertigo like riding a roller coaster.
There is another fantasy show called "Dungeon Meshi", or "Delicious in Dungeon," which does a far better job with animation, directing, writing, and made me even tear up at some of the moments, of which Frieren only makes me cringe. Unfortunately, because some high profile youtuber didn't review it, it is not as popular.
Frieren ultimately tries to be something it is not and fails miserably, therefore I see no merit or reason as to why the show is as popular as it is aside from all the viewers not having any taste in quality.
That doesn't mean it is all bad though, the art is some areas are extremely good, and the directing in the first four episodes were the best in the entire series, but that is about it.
I’m sorry it didn’t hit for you like it did for a lot of people. I may disagree about Frieren, but I definitely agree about Delicious in Dungeon!
A few years ago i had hoped that someday there would be a show for joe abercrombies the first law trilogy. Now i hope that no Hollywood exec find out it exist:(
Actually, Joe I believe has been in discussion for awhile on making a movie out of the first book
Relevant and Supportive Comment to feed the Algorangim
Any support is always appreciated - thank you 🙂
I won't lie. I get pretty tired of all the complaining. I don't always find fans' insights cohesive, so when you kept talking about fantasy being "robbed" by Hollywood, and made the salient point that most times we're given an exercise in budget over substance, I thought for sure you'd complain next about Hollywood taking a more "gritty" and "realistic" approach to fantasy, which would be an antithetical argument.
I'm satisfied with the nuanced arguments you made instead, although I think it's more than a little unfortunate that your only examples of fantasy "done right" are among the most expensive things ever made. That's not ideal.
Let's also complain about the technology in the movies. If we're willing to assume an 1858 Remington with a swing-out cylinder, we then have to also accept that it swings out to either side, depending on which hand the gun is for. And try not to mix the left gun with the right.
And why doesn't the cylinder in the kid's gun fit the frame?
If your going to depict weapons, think about the ramifications of the technology. It has to be consistently practical and rational, no matter how cool.
If Schwarzenegger complains about the weight, the sword is too heavy for a real blade.
I actually liked Bright
The word is adapTAtion, not adaption.
Adaption is an alternative word for Adapation which is less used, yes, but has existed (based on earliest records) since the early 1600s :-)
There are some interpretations where adaption is more focused on environmental/biological influences rather than a straight synonym for Adaptation, so in general, Adaptation would have been more clear to use here.
I usually do so as well, guess here, the flow of the shorter alternative just came out naturally. In the end, it is a real word and not completely incorrect in this context either but I'll make sure to try and remember AdapTAtion for the next time again 🙂
@TheTaleTinkerer - no it isn't. It is not a recognised English word
You could have just said "sorry, will try harder"
"Adaption" isn't a word
The word is "adaptation"
I was totally with you until you use the new Dune movies as examples of doing things right. I totally disagree, admittedly it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but it's still far from good.
Adaptation is a veneer on a project used to draw in existing fandom. There are a number of good stories which are bad adaptations, and some others which would have been pretty good stories if they weren't tied to existing IP
I'm unfortunately becoming less and less interested as well. Even Rings of Power I decided to not watch through the entire Season 2 anymore. Simply feels like a waste of time (for me personally at least).
Bright excited me as a Shadowrun rpg fan, but it just wasn't it. If you're not familiar with Shadowrun check it out. The lore and worldbuilding has been taken seriously from the start in the 1980s. One source book on cyberware was my introduction to molecular biology and genetics - these books were written by nerds. In a nutshell, it's Cyberpunk 2077 with dragons and magic. The concept is that Earth goes through 5,000 year cycles where magic waxes and wanes. Around the year 2011 magic returned and normal creatures, including humans, mutated into magical versions (elves, dwarves, orcs and trolls). Spirits from other planes are a real threat and there's conspiracy theories about dragons trying to take over the world that they believe they still own - dragons hibernated until the magic returned, now they own corporations and run for public office.
About the "Patience Problem", there is a reason why one of the mottos of Stormlight Archive is "Journey before Destination".
4:32 so far we're just railing against adaptation. These are inherent problems when you are adapting anything, the nature of changing media from book to film/tv means some things have to sacrificed e.g. a characters pages worth of inner thoughts and turmoil does not translate well to screen, the vast history of a world which can be explained abstractly has to be communicated through dialogue which can be clunky. If adaptation was easy they would all be 1:1 recreations that would always be good. Given how rare this is shows how difficult this is.
Even the best adaptations that people laud have significant inaccuracies when compared to the source material which breeds detraction from certain hardcore fans.
What is the solution? Just never make any adaptations? Even if we ignore how many "original ideas" are remixes of even older tales, isn’t this just gatekeeping art and stifling creativity?
Spectacle < Intentional story telling + (shoelace) CGI budget = Godzilla Minus One.👀
Please don't use AI art for thumbnails it hurts real artists and their income
i think short form content, and profits are largely to blame. Let’s be honest, when watching netflix everyone has their phone next to them, therefore these studios may feel they need constant action and can’t have slow world building or else they may lose the viewers attention. Also I think something like rings of power would need more episodes to properly build the world, and no one in the production wants to be paid less to add more episodes. I think the improper adaptations of books are relying people not knowing the source material and thinking people just want something to watch to escape from reality. Also rings of power has to battle licensing rights. I blame media as a whole and not just the studios, no one realizes how important art is and how we will never have this moment again to tell this story during this time.
The shortening of seasons is something I've disliked for quite a while. And it does contribute to the problem of "rushing through" when it comes to TV shows, yes.
The 10 episodes approach was already lacking for the depth some shows needed. But now we moved to 8 and sometimes 6 episodes while the budgets per season keep climbing.
The focus is on the wrong things here, at least from my opinion.
A film series that worked well in my opinion was the Panem adaptation (although they unnecessarily divided the third novel into two parts).
Yeah, that is true. I found the movies to be quite well done too. Not sure how accurate the adaptations were from the top of my head but the movies delivered upon what's necessary for compelling worldbuilding and storytelling (at least for me).
14:55 ... and fifteen yawnsome endings
Rings of Power didn't have the source material. The Tolkien estate only let them use Lord of The Rings, and the appendices. The Estate hamstrung the project before it started.
If they couldn't get the actual rights, they should not have made the show. They could've just walked away from it and went looking for something else to adapt.
Little corrections... Amazon does not in fact have the source material. Tolkien Estate only sold the rights for The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings trilogy. Everything about the Second Age is found in The Silmarillion, which they have announced will never sell the rights of. The Rings of Power's greatest flaw was to try to tell an alternate story of something we already know of. And even if the plot of the show was better, it would've never live up to the expectations of most Tolkien fans. TRoP was doomed to be compared to both Jackson films (which were hated by Christopher and Tolkien Estate both) and the books without much of a chance.
Great comment - and I could have been clearer here, yes.
To me the entire choice of going for that Age when they have the Source Material for such much else, was a misguided decision from the beginning.
Either I can use the actual lore or I'd have chosen a different approach to a Lord of the Rings show.
@@TheTaleTinkererI think it’s something we have to just accept at this point, nothing will be gained by constantly banging the "it doesn’t match the source material" drum. I know, you know, everyone knows that they have taken liberties with the source material/are not following the Silmarillion. Does it actually matter?
I would consider Bright an interesting experiment far more than I would consider it a failed story. Had it just been a classic fantasy world with two knights uncovering a magical evil plot, we would not complain. Setting it in present day with modern dynamics and hoops to jump through added a novel perspective to try and consider, one that many simply refused to do because they refuse to believe fantasy can exist outside of the old times. Otherwise, the story needed much more polish and further revisions before it could hope to be well-received. It was interesting nonetheless.
Don't get me wrong, it was a great experiment on paper. I loved it as an idea when announced and was really looking forward to the film.
The problem - with so many fantasy movies/shows - was the execution in the end. And a bad/mediocre movie doesn't get better just because the original idea was good 🙂
To me Bright sounds like an intetesting concept for a TV series. That brings the Norwegian series "Beforeigners" to my mind, in which people from the past get to modern day Oslo through a hole in time thus creating a lot of problems to deal with.
And not only that, the whole Plot evolves around a murder case with a victim from the Stone Age and a female police officer from the Viking era struggling with Anger issues.
What I liked about Beforeigners was the complexity of the plot and its slow pacing allowing you enough time to dive into the story and to connect emotionally with the characters.
"Had it just been a classic fantasy world with two knights uncovering a magical evil plot, we would not complain."
Yes we would, because it would still be dull and poorly conceived. Do you remember all of those Italian and Argentinian-produced Conan knock-offs that came out in the early 80's? Like Deathstalker, Sorceress, Ator, The Warrior and Sorceress, Barbarians, The Throne of Fire, The Invincible Barbarian, etc ? None of these movies are regarded as hidden gems today. Even the few that have deserved cult followings, like The Sword and the Sorcerer, Hawk the Slayer, and Hundra still aren't beloved without irony.
Big Trouble in Little China, Underworld, and The Last Witch Hunter are easy example of Urban Fantasy movies that are better than Bright.
Oh yes, also, Bright…. So wanted it to be good, but all I found was pain….
I was really looking forward to the movie as well, back then when it was announced. Looked like such a cool blend, unfortunately, the execution lacked 😞
The only thing I remember from the dark Tower movie was just the it joke and Monsters trying to break into reality.
For me it's always the action focused scenes with the revolver, some are even somewhat cool, the movie put together as a whole just didn't fit the books/overall themes 🙂
Rings of power, they have the source material ish
Yes, I did reply to a different comment here as well. I could have been clearer on that. What I meant in detail was that they had so much source material that could have been used for amazing stories, but they ended up producing something mediocre - which probably also is due to the fact that they don't have the Silmarillion rights and as such made up some form of alternative here rather than staying true to Tolkien's works.
@TheTaleTinkerer good video though 👌🏽 and I agree on the witcher also. The problem with this screenwriters that want a known ip to tell their own stories
@@RhmnLegoI was willing to give the Witcher the benefit if the doubt on a number of things and then you hear things like, we killed off this character specifically because we thought it would be impactful for a prominent book character to die, rather than a nameless one….. which is just weird. It means that the only people who will have any sort of reaction will be book fans, excluding everyone else, and whilst I’m sure book fans will have been shocked to see him die before any of his cool book moments, I can imagine their second reaction would be anything other than angry. Especially as it is comes across as him receiving karmic punishment for being mean to Gerald and Ciri a few scenes earlier.
@@intergalactic92 agreed season 3 was my last season, Henry Cavil departure was the drop that tip the cup
@@RhmnLego I didn’t even bother with season 3.
The most important part is to draw in the audience, to hook them. If I want to see nice pictures I search for some admire them and then just forget about them again. I refuse to watch GoT because I don’t want my hunger for story ruined by special. I also see my own story and wonder if I should provide at least a picture to the more alien characters. The aliens I call noxar in the story could benefit from both things.
12:24 I have written nearly 60 pages for a characters trauma recovery and how this affects her and her relationship with a creature that has nurtured her threw out this entire time. I have integrated the creatures mission planing as something at the edge of the nyras recovery arc and will be slowly pushed into the center once she has recovered some more.
Have you watched the GoT seasons that cover the books you already read? The first few seasons are really well made 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer well I suck at reading. I listen to the audio books. I d rather let my imagination play instead of getting fed pictures. But if you can recommend it I will give it a go.
1st time viewer, great video!
Thank you for the positive feedback - always encouraging to hear something like that 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer YW
I honestly thought you were gonna do the lazy “ Anti-Woke” grift when talking about fantasy( IE, black people existing in a show “breaks immersion”) but I like how you used the bright example and it made your criticism complex and multifaceted.
👍🏻
Glad you liked it - thanks for the positive feedback 🙂
Adaption? Is that a word? I’ll have to check on that later. But yeah, everything else you’re saying is dead on. Rings of Power… I so very much want to like it, but the inconsistency… the nicest thing I can say, my disbelief is not suspended, which is a fatal pronunciation for any and all fantasy….😢
Yea I think he meant “Adaptation” but since English is not his main language, I’m sure it slipped by lol.
@@TRYCLOPS1 yes, not an issue, just an observation. Just picture Adapt@ion and watch other grammar goblins like me squirm
@@TheIronarmhopefully, the grammar inquisition don’t catch him! 🤣
Anyway it made me remember the movie ‘Adaptation’ 🤷♂️
@@TRYCLOPS1 @theironarm Adaption is an alternative word for Adapation which is less used, yes, but has existed (based on earliest records) since the early 1600s :-)
There are some interpretations where adaption is more focused on environmental/biological influences rather than a straight synonym for Adaptation, so in general, Adaptation would have been more clear to use here.
I usually do so as well, guess here, the flow of the shorter alternative just came out naturally. In the end, it is a real word and not completely incorrect in this context either but I'll make sure to try and remember AdapTAtion for the next time again 🙂
You forgot the biggest killer of entertainment of this era, wokeness.
Really, just trying to push an agenda rather than a good story, in general.
I somewhat included it (for myself) in the modernization topic. You are not incorrect of course, but I find that particular term and topic so heavily politically loaded that I didn't want to include it prominently.
While I do want to comment on storytelling related things every now and then or even do case studies of existing works, the channel here is still focused on practical advice for storytelling, worldbuilding and fantasy writing - so I want to avoid having my videos become too heavily focused on political commentary.
And anything related to the term "woke", at least from what I've seen on TH-cam and elsewhere, is full of emotion and politics.
If that makes sense somehow 🙂
Ive never heard a definition for "woke" that doesn't make it sound like I asked a bigot.
@@nanoblast5748 Never heard anybody use the word bigot without being an activist.
@@TheTaleTinkerer I went back and watched the video again, yes you did. You divided the subject into different parts, to obscure the politically charged term. Very smart to avoid the activists attention. Apologies for bringing up the term, was drunk.