"Polarization creates injustice." - Dr. Yancey This is exactly the reason that I am personally very leery of ideologies that are deeply rooted in Social Conflict Theory. They are founded on the worldview that society is built and sustained through conflict between groups. I think that is a very incorrect foundational premise from which to derive real justice, and as a result, will lead to further injustice.
Can reconciliation happen? Not if a person, or a group is committed to holding on to grievance, bitterness, covetousness and ultimately unforgiveness.... but we all know what happens to people who won't forgive men their trespasses (Matt 6:15).
Not sure about the other responses?? But a few differences in the nations. You have a black majority, yet a brutal system. How did the change unfold in your country? I heard you had the Race and reconciliation Program there. I meant to study it because I thought it was foundational in what should happen here. Problem is when certain whites hear a problem like that... they get nervous. Because it includes self examination. So can you explain how that program went?
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:34-35
How is this a debate?! Two woke philosophers agreeing with each other. I would love to see a true debate about this very cancerous issue. How about Voddie Baucham vs. Eric Mason? Now that would be interesting, though I doubt Mason would agree to it, or that TGC would give Voddie a platform.
7:05 He has demoted confession, orthodoxy. and explains a justification by our “living”, which is a different gospel. He states a lot of true statements of doctrinal value and then demotes some. Please be aware this is a social justice gospel that is problematic. Voddie Bachum was right: this is all about ethnic Gnosticism. And there are basing their approach to reconciliation by past social traumas (which is not only unique to black people) mixing relativism and speculation and no clear solutions. This is critical race theory and Devisive. Everyone is accountable to their current decisions and attitude and beliefs about God and neighbor. Please go back to teaching the Bible.
This discussion is framed all wrong from the outset. The main question itself assumes that racial injustice still exists. What TGC means by "racial justice" is "equity" which has it's roots in socialism at best, & Marxism at worst. A more helpful debate would be "does racial inequity imply racial injustices?" rather than assuming equity = injustice from the outset. Sneaky moves like this are why lots of people accuse TGC of moving the Overton window to the left; because their presuppositions are inherently progressive.
🎉this exactly. They have to make certain assumptions in order to even have the question at all. I don't know that they can prove those assumptions. A better discussion would be ways to improve statistics for black communities, and not simply to blame those statistics on white people from the outset. That's not productive in the least.
Who do I need to be reconciled to other than Christ or fellow believers I’ve wronged? Do i need to be reconciled to the factory worker in china who made the iphone I use because I’ve helped perpetuate slave labor by purchasing one, or to the person mining cobalt in Africa for the tesla I drive? Where does it end?
Are we talking in society or with God? There is and will be none in society unless or until people repent and trust in Christ. When they are reconciled with God through Christ then they can live up to treating others in the way they have been treated. However, without the Gospel there is no reconciliation. I am not sure why this seems so hard to understand. We stand for what is right but we put our deepest effort into calling people to repent of their sins and trust Christ from the wrath to come.
This is an excellent debate. Very good, I am pleased with intelligent debate. I desire that we make room for each other. I have 3 white children and 3 black children. We need to hear and listen♥️
This series is for helping us navigate challenging issues. It would be more helpful for us listeners. For you to use scripture first in defining terms form God has revealed then move into application within the church, and then move into the unbelieving world
You have got to be kidding. Honestly, did not Paul warn against mixing law into the Gospel? And did not God condemn covetousness in His Decalogue? Did not Jesus Himself declare that the sins of the fathers are NOT accountable of the sons? And is not theft, even theft enshrouded in civil laws of a nation, still damnable sin? This so called debate was farcical in the extreme, is not helpful in any way, and constitutes false teaching, of which should be repented by all parties involved.
I totally disagree on the emphasis of: the key to a favorable judgment is: "a demonstrable righteousness" @ 6:55, although I do believe a demonstrable righteousness attends a true profession of legitimate faith that always involves character shaping Spiritual regeneration( Ezek. 36:26-27, Jn 3:3 & Gal. 3:5-7) Darryl, you just tripped on that point brother, and that's all there is to it and it is not a minor issue;( is our hope in righteousness rooted in justification or sanctification? and I think you were alluding to 2Cor. 5:10 and it's reward or loss but I didn't hear those words) Beyond that - the church's "mission" is NOT to effect racial reconciliation in the culture at Large although it may seek to promote it through example most certainly and the Basis of that reconciliation is NOT justice in systems or equality in culture or society but equality and Oneness in Christ. I planted and pastored a church in Europe which was incredibly diverse( many Anglos, Africans and Asians and yet it was the most unified, loving and peaceful church I've ever been in; so, not only was there NO racism, there also were also no age gender or socioeconomic class distinctions visible. WHY? Because we preached, taught and strove to live out Ephesians 3:10 - which was absolutely central: "God’s purpose...., was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places,"( Eph. 3:10). In other words- until Christ is at the center individually and corporately Unity in the midst of diversity is largely just an attractive idea, but will be largely unrealized. in my opinion anyway.
The question makes certain assumptions that put some discussion out of bounds from the start. Am reminded of what Barbara and Karen Fields would say about "racial reconciliation" in Racecraft: "'Race relations' as an analysis of society takes for granted that race is a valid empirical datum and thereby shifts attention from the actions that constitute racism -- enslavement, disfranchisement, segregation, lynching, massacres, and pogroms -- to the traits that constitute race." Setting aside the illusion of race would allow questions about the real issues to be addressed more directly and meaningfully.
That is one of the smartest comments I've ever seen. Thanks for the attribution. I'll add pushing a shallow and dishonest conflation of racism, ethnocentricity, bigotry and cultural preferences to what you said.
So when the first speaker sounded like he is “expanding” the definition of the Gospel, it is already off track. And then when the second speaker begins (as most of these lame, fake debates do) with “I agree with almost everything he said,” how is this a debate and how is it valuable. And nobody defined “justice” vs “social or racial justice,” at least not in the first 15 minutes. Soooo I’m out!
@@BrianDikasdaybydaywhat reality? Are you sure you are living in reality? Racism is not an issue in our western countries (other than arguably toward white people). If you have good character, obey God, and work hard, you should succeed, regardless of your skin colour. Plus there is only one race: the human race.
This was a very helpful debate moderated in good faith. Gospel at the center and excellent points on both sides. I serve in a primarily white church and I'll be sharing with others!
I plead guilty to treating everyone the same. Deal with it. If you've done something you need to confess or reconcile by all means take care of it and don't project it on others.
Great conversation. The Gospel and God's glory were central. I think we're moving in the right direction and I'm excited to see what the American church looks like in 10-20 years.
That was really interesting... they heard God. I would like to see this continue in the near future, and maybe instead with a black moderator and 2 white pastors with basically the same question. Perhaps the moderator could be Tony Evans and the 2 white pastors be John Piper and Rick Warren.
![Christians and the Government [“You're Not Crazy” S4 - Ep.04]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QmwTWjMs9zE/mqdefault.jpg)
Where’s the debate?
I didn't see one
"Polarization creates injustice." - Dr. Yancey
This is exactly the reason that I am personally very leery of ideologies that are deeply rooted in Social Conflict Theory. They are founded on the worldview that society is built and sustained through conflict between groups. I think that is a very incorrect foundational premise from which to derive real justice, and as a result, will lead to further injustice.
You may want to choose a debater who actually disagrees next time....that's typically how debates work.
Can reconciliation happen? Not if a person, or a group is committed to holding on to grievance, bitterness, covetousness and ultimately unforgiveness.... but we all know what happens to people who won't forgive men their trespasses (Matt 6:15).
Btw , I'm a non white from SA who suffered under Apartheid , The Gospel has made a DIFFERENCE . How long are you going to continue this conversation?
why is it wrong to continue the conversation? Not everyone comes from the same perspective, therefore It is important to have awareness of this.
Why shouldn't the conversation continue?
Not sure about the other responses?? But a few differences in the nations. You have a black majority, yet a brutal system. How did the change unfold in your country? I heard you had the Race and reconciliation Program there. I meant to study it because I thought it was foundational in what should happen here. Problem is when certain whites hear a problem like that... they get nervous. Because it includes self examination. So can you explain how that program went?
Racial identity has zero place for the Christian. We are one in Christ
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 13:34-35
How is this a debate?! Two woke philosophers agreeing with each other. I would love to see a true debate about this very cancerous issue. How about Voddie Baucham vs. Eric Mason? Now that would be interesting, though I doubt Mason would agree to it, or that TGC would give Voddie a platform.
Exactly!
6:55 I am glad I am not righteous because Jesus came to save people like me. If you can live righteously, you don't need a savior
7:05 He has demoted confession, orthodoxy. and explains a justification by our “living”, which is a different gospel.
He states a lot of true statements of doctrinal value and then demotes some. Please be aware this is a social justice gospel that is problematic. Voddie Bachum was right: this is all about ethnic Gnosticism. And there are basing their approach to reconciliation by past social traumas (which is not only unique to black people) mixing relativism and speculation and no clear solutions. This is critical race theory and Devisive.
Everyone is accountable to their current decisions and attitude and beliefs about God and neighbor. Please go back to teaching the Bible.
Read the politics of Proverbs, Read Isa 58, read Isa 60 and restate your paragraph if you can
This discussion is framed all wrong from the outset. The main question itself assumes that racial injustice still exists. What TGC means by "racial justice" is "equity" which has it's roots in socialism at best, & Marxism at worst. A more helpful debate would be "does racial inequity imply racial injustices?" rather than assuming equity = injustice from the outset.
Sneaky moves like this are why lots of people accuse TGC of moving the Overton window to the left; because their presuppositions are inherently progressive.
🎉this exactly. They have to make certain assumptions in order to even have the question at all. I don't know that they can prove those assumptions. A better discussion would be ways to improve statistics for black communities, and not simply to blame those statistics on white people from the outset. That's not productive in the least.
It does still exist though, which would make the framing accurate, not sneaky.
Who do I need to be reconciled to other than Christ or fellow believers I’ve wronged? Do i need to be reconciled to the factory worker in china who made the iphone I use because I’ve helped perpetuate slave labor by purchasing one, or to the person mining cobalt in Africa for the tesla I drive? Where does it end?
Are we talking in society or with God? There is and will be none in society unless or until people repent and trust in Christ. When they are reconciled with God through Christ then they can live up to treating others in the way they have been treated. However, without the Gospel there is no reconciliation. I am not sure why this seems so hard to understand. We stand for what is right but we put our deepest effort into calling people to repent of their sins and trust Christ from the wrath to come.
This is an excellent debate. Very good, I am pleased with intelligent debate. I desire that we make room for each other. I have 3 white children and 3 black children. We need to hear and listen♥️
This wasn't a debate Ruth.
@Howard Hilliard it is one of TGC's good faith debates, so Ruth is calling it by its name.
@@HearGodsWord It's annoying to have to endure redefinitions of words every time a leftist wants to push a political agenda.
@Howard Hilliard wether that's the case or not, it doesn't change the fact it was a debate.
This series is for helping us navigate challenging issues. It would be more helpful for us listeners. For you to use scripture first in defining terms form God has revealed then move into application within the church, and then move into the unbelieving world
You have got to be kidding. Honestly, did not Paul warn against mixing law into the Gospel? And did not God condemn covetousness in His Decalogue? Did not Jesus Himself declare that the sins of the fathers are NOT accountable of the sons? And is not theft, even theft enshrouded in civil laws of a nation, still damnable sin? This so called debate was farcical in the extreme, is not helpful in any way, and constitutes false teaching, of which should be repented by all parties involved.
I totally disagree on the emphasis of: the key to a favorable judgment is: "a demonstrable righteousness"
@ 6:55, although I do believe a demonstrable righteousness attends a true profession of legitimate faith that always involves character shaping Spiritual regeneration( Ezek. 36:26-27, Jn 3:3 & Gal. 3:5-7) Darryl, you just tripped on that point brother, and that's all there is to it and it is not a minor issue;( is our hope in righteousness rooted in justification or sanctification? and I think you were alluding to 2Cor. 5:10 and it's reward or loss but I didn't hear those words) Beyond that - the church's "mission" is NOT to effect racial reconciliation in the culture at Large although it may seek to promote it through example most certainly and the Basis of that reconciliation is NOT justice in systems or equality in culture or society but equality and Oneness in Christ. I planted and pastored a church in Europe which was incredibly diverse( many Anglos, Africans and Asians and yet it was the most unified, loving and peaceful church I've ever been in; so, not only was there NO racism, there also were also no age gender or socioeconomic class distinctions visible. WHY? Because we preached, taught and strove to live out Ephesians 3:10 - which was absolutely central:
"God’s purpose...., was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places,"( Eph. 3:10).
In other words- until Christ is at the center individually and corporately Unity in the midst of diversity is largely just an attractive idea, but will be largely unrealized. in my opinion anyway.
The question makes certain assumptions that put some discussion out of bounds from the start. Am reminded of what Barbara and Karen Fields would say about "racial reconciliation" in Racecraft: "'Race relations' as an analysis of society takes for granted that race is a valid empirical datum and thereby shifts attention from the actions that constitute racism -- enslavement, disfranchisement, segregation, lynching, massacres, and pogroms -- to the traits that constitute race." Setting aside the illusion of race would allow questions about the real issues to be addressed more directly and meaningfully.
That is one of the smartest comments I've ever seen. Thanks for the attribution. I'll add pushing a shallow and dishonest conflation of racism, ethnocentricity, bigotry and cultural preferences to what you said.
So when the first speaker sounded like he is “expanding” the definition of the Gospel, it is already off track. And then when the second speaker begins (as most of these lame, fake debates do) with “I agree with almost everything he said,” how is this a debate and how is it valuable. And nobody defined “justice” vs “social or racial justice,” at least not in the first 15 minutes. Soooo I’m out!
So tired of this conversation 😢 Wish and pray for it to STOP !!!
For the conversation to stop the reality that this conversation emerges from must stop. That might be a more compassionate wish/prayer
Thankfully you’re using a forum of information where changing the topic is a click/tap away.
@@BrianDikasdaybydaywhat reality? Are you sure you are living in reality? Racism is not an issue in our western countries (other than arguably toward white people). If you have good character, obey God, and work hard, you should succeed, regardless of your skin colour. Plus there is only one race: the human race.
This was a very helpful debate moderated in good faith. Gospel at the center and excellent points on both sides. I serve in a primarily white church and I'll be sharing with others!
God bless you 🙏🏻
I plead guilty to treating everyone the same. Deal with it. If you've done something you need to confess or reconcile by all means take care of it and don't project it on others.
What part of the debate were you replying to?
@@HearGodsWord The part that presumes whites by virtue of their pigmentation have something to reconcile with blacks.
Great conversation. The Gospel and God's glory were central. I think we're moving in the right direction and I'm excited to see what the American church looks like in 10-20 years.
That was really interesting... they heard God. I would like to see this continue in the near future, and maybe instead with a black moderator and 2 white pastors with basically the same question. Perhaps the moderator could be Tony Evans and the 2 white pastors be John Piper and Rick Warren.