Update1: I unfortunately tested lag in triple buffer mode. With Gen Lock in the HDMI Output setting, lag in all downscaling scenarios should only be approximately 3msec. Update 2: The RetroTink 4K can Interlace! Downscaling Chronicles Mini: RetroTink 4K 480i output and 240p menu fix th-cam.com/video/0hUuxa0Wbns/w-d-xo.html Update 13 July 2024: Experimental Firmware Version 1.5.1 retrotink-llc.github.io/firmware/4k-experimental.html Menu now works in 240p output using temporal downscaling Added ability to generate interlaced output timings As per Mike Chi: currently interlaced output really only works without scaling. For example, 480i output can pass 480i input OR convert 480p - 480i. 1080i can pass 1080i inputs or convert 1080p - 1080i
I’m glad the modeline I gave was a decent starting point! Mike actually generated that one for me. I made a couple downscaling profiles for DS games running on the Wii U, I should probably upload those somewhere as they worked quite well from what I remember
Ohh I didn’t know, but take that credit and run with it haha. It was a little different to any of the 1440x240 modelines on Guspaz’s calculator so I know someone clever had tweaked it. The input/output relationship is quiet particular on how the image is cropped and scanned so I’m sure someone will benefit from a WiiU specific profile
The GBS is great for its price and I was doing the same as you early on when experimenting with the setup. A sync combiner is a good idea as it’s either that or a powered DAC for component
OMG that import tax, I've been dinged a couple times for a single border distance but nothing like that.😲Certainly a robust upscaler with a long list of options to adjust, not sure its worth that price you payed altogether though. Realistically most SDTVs max out at 480i/525i so 1080p/720p downscaling is a bit much for 240p to handle. Given RGB AV quality 640x480 on a SDTV can look decent but still hard to read in average text scales Eg. reminds me of 360 Dead Rising where some people struggled with a SDTV back then heh. Been speculating for a project and 480x360 seems to be the lost screen mode of the CRT era. While they always say there are no pixels on a CRT, the dot pitch and shadow mask quality relate to the scale of pixel shown on the screen where 320x240 isn't as decimated as 640x480 graphics on a SDTV. Thought I'd mention in reference to lag differentials in upscaling/downscaling. Not many test samples for it out there since it was used more in 3D than 2D games, for example Armorines on N64 with Expansion Pak enabled does 480x360. Not many game consoles have that mode, PSP is close at native 480x272. DOS/Win95 gaming standardized 360p around the time Quake1 came out as VESA drivers made all sorts of screen modes compatible to the video cards of the era. Again not a lot of game examples in 480x360, mostly FPS titles. As a result of that history it barely ever comes up in CRT videos even though it has forward compatibility through 2X upscale through 720p. Anyway something to play with albeit in a limited capacity with such devices.🙂
Yeh it was hella expensive, I’m still recovering lol. I’m waiting patiently to see how the eventual Crosspoint addon will turn out for the Pixel FX Morph 4K. If the hardware and software is well optimised then it’ll be a much cheaper alternative and may even be more convenient for downscaling without needing an external DAC, we’ll have to wait and see. It’s difficult finding a CRT that supports mid resolution 24KHz. I’ve recently been looking for one to test another downscaler that can output 386p and 240p
The only issue I can see with the OSSC route, is that I literally cannot find anywhere that sells one. VGP used to have them, but they've been sold out for quite a long time.
I read in the latest newsletter VGP should have stock early August 2024. They wrote there should be enough to not have to pre order or wait list, hopefully you’ll have no trouble getting one
@@MarcoRetro316 cheers, mate! As an owner of two original OSSCs (a 1.5 with audio board and a 1.6), I think the Pro would do a lot better for me. Especially given the fact I have some old DOS computers (of which the HDMI input would pair great with the RGB2HDMI).
@@sneakingelephant these kinds of comments tells me it’s been a worthwhile journey. I’m eager to see how the Morph will behave as a downscaler. It has big shoes to fill against the OSSC Pro, hopefully it has some features to make it stand out
@@harrysacket you could theoretically do that with the RetroTink 4K with a custom modeline. Some Corio2 TVOne scalers *might* allow you as well with a similar concept of a custom resolution. I know the border on TVOne’s are blue by default and not sure you can change to black. Otherwise some Extron scalers like the IN1606 have several 768 vertical outputs with differing horizontal sizes for aspect ratio. They have image resizing controls that may allow you to pad the 720p input
So RT4K is (currently) a bad choice for 480i > 240p downscaling? Shame, that's my main usecase, I quite like having a non-software solution to play PS2 games in 240p. I sold my RT5X to help afford the 4K, so I'm currently lacking a device that's ideal for that... Which would you recommend today?
Only in my brief testing with a 480i input I’d say it’s not straightforward. Downscaling on the Tink4K generally worked well because of the pre-scale feature doing most of the vertical resizing, but I couldn’t get that to influence the 480i input whatsoever. Instead it was the CRT simulate feature that squeezed the 480i input vertically but I couldn’t get rid of the simulated 480i flicker that comes with that option. Otherwise with the over-scanned 480i, the vertical factor can probably be reduced below 1.0 similar to how I squeezed the horizontal factor for the 1080p input. I haven’t tried this but a similar approach would be to reduce the bottom crop, then reduce the vertical factor to 1.0, then increase the bottom crop and hopefully it drops below 1.0 and fits/centres itself. If 480i to 240p is what you’re after and you’re on a budget then the GBS Control is the best option. Otherwise the RT5x and OSSC Pro are equally as good at 480i>240p. If budget isn’t an issue I recommend the OSSC Pro for downscaling, they should be in stock early August 2024.
Should have used shipito, once it’s there you can pay them extra to remove purchase amount from the package and specify a new value under the Aus import tax threshold. Would have saved yourself a lot.
Thank you! The OSSC Pro might be the closest thing so far. It would be nice to have an option that removes the upscaling capabilities to offset some of the cost. Not sure that’s even viable if the same hardware is needed
@@MarcoRetro316 That is kind of what I was thinking. Hopefully your video series brings awareness to people like mike and markus that this is something a lot of people actually want and they can offer a dedicated downscaling version of their firmware. If you can cater to vhs transfer 🙄 you can cater to downscaling.
I wonder if you are aware of how most "pixel art" games work these days, the vertical shimmer you see can't be avoided on consoles, on PC some well made games can avoid it completely looking amazing, others avoid it a certain degree. Some are pretty much perfect like Blazing Chrome giving a perfect 427x240 1x window and TOUHOU Luna Nights with a perfect 640x360 1x window (you'll need a VGA CRT to display this one correctly). Most of the pixel art games have no real pixels, they just draw squares on screen and these do NOT represent the minimum possible display movement. These pixels are uneven sized by nature during scrolling even if they look ok in a screenshot and they are able to advance half a pixel causing shimmer even if pixel size is even. I studied many pixel art games and most are not made to be displayed with scanlines effect or on a CRT, they look like they could have perfect scanlines but... no. Easy is "Evil Tonight" which won't offer a 1x window as its scrolling on every direction depends on moving half a pixel, it's a shame as it's a damn good game
Thank you for the in depth run down. Yes I’m fully aware about some modern pixel art assets not drawn to a strict base resolution hence the shimmer, though I could probably not have explained it as eloquently as you have. I deliberately choose such games to demonstrate that pixel art doesn’t automatically equal a good time if you force it into a 240p output and so viewers won’t wonder why it doesn’t look correct if they try using an external device for downscaling. These are the ‘non-vertical integer upscaled modern pixel art games’ (bit of a mouthful) that I go on about. I will eventually be making an episode on using a PC to output 15KHz, I just have to find time. I’ll be sure to look into Blazing Chrome, thanks for that suggestion. I don’t have a 24KHz compatible set on hand to try Luna Nights but I’ve generally capped the output at 15KHz so I can maintain focus on the topic. I’m not so well versed in PC’s so it may be surface-level knowledge for super users already using this method.
@@MarcoRetro316 don't think too much about VGA monitors complexities just think of them as 31+KHz monitors, they go from 480p (31KHz) to 1440p and some can go even higher, so you can just play any 720p or 1080p game there and get the motion resolution benefits. For 480p these monitors still show natural scanlines and look beautiful so these pixel art games that allow 1x are asking to be played in one of these monitors. Now a VGA CRT + RT4K is just a match made in heaven. Create a custom res on the RT4K 1280x1024 and take any pixel game on 720p, add deep dark scanlines, prescale at 1/2 or 1/3 and enjoy. This match will be superior to any downscaling as image will actually fit the screen
Sounds awesome. Having the L5 PVM’s has stopped me getting a PC CRT even though the L5’s don’t reach anywhere near the bandwidth of a PC monitor. I’ve avoided these scenarios more for the sake of keeping the series focused to 15KHz. I experience burn-out after making each video on a focused topic, let alone broader options. But I’ll never say never, once I’m up to date with all the available downscaling options I may look into a video dedicated to consumer HD CRT’s and PC monitors. Wife is gonna kill me if I bring home another CRT 😅
I made the one featured in the video. There’s a few options to purchase www.ebay.com.au/itm/114489119197?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=bPsiC-xhSsC&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=oXeW_LijToy&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY etim.net.au/shop/shop.php?crn=220&rn=582&action=show_detail
@@nattapolnatt1301 they will functionally do the same thing but they both need external power to power the sync combining circuit. This product is closer to what I made with a passive sync combiner.
@@nattapolnatt1301 yep you’re correct. I’m pretty sure the HD15 2Scart would allow voltage to pass through from VGA pin 9 to scart pin 16. The problem is that most HDMI to VGA converters won’t send voltage to VGA pin 9, so you may need one of the powered solutions. I use a Gscart switcher which sends blanking voltage regardless if the input doesn’t supply it, so that always saves me if I just want to input RGBs without worrying about introducing voltage to scart pin 16
The Tink4K is currently unable to output any interlaced resolutions, not sure that’ll change in the future. The OSSC Pro is getting 1080i 100/120Hz output in the next firmware update. The Pro has a line multiplier mode which is generally zero lag though I’m not sure 1080i output will be tied to that mode or the scaler mode which typically has the same lag as the RetroTink 4K at about 1.2 frames
Update1: I unfortunately tested lag in triple buffer mode. With Gen Lock in the HDMI Output setting, lag in all downscaling scenarios should only be approximately 3msec.
Update 2: The RetroTink 4K can Interlace!
Downscaling Chronicles Mini: RetroTink 4K 480i output and 240p menu fix
th-cam.com/video/0hUuxa0Wbns/w-d-xo.html
Update 13 July 2024: Experimental Firmware Version 1.5.1
retrotink-llc.github.io/firmware/4k-experimental.html
Menu now works in 240p output using temporal downscaling
Added ability to generate interlaced output timings
As per Mike Chi: currently interlaced output really only works without scaling. For example, 480i output can pass 480i input OR convert 480p - 480i. 1080i can pass 1080i inputs or convert 1080p - 1080i
That intro is class!
Another superb entry in the series!
Thanks mate!!
Awesome a new Episode on my favorite series besides Game of Thrones ;)
I’ve got to find out George R. R. Martin’s secret! Thank you
Yesssssss. This is what I've been waiting for. Let's see it!!
I remember you asked about the Tink 4K, hopefully this gives an insight what it can do
@@MarcoRetro316 absolutely it does! Incredibly helpful. Thank you!! ❤️
God, I love your videos so much
Thank you once again my friend!
I’m glad the modeline I gave was a decent starting point! Mike actually generated that one for me. I made a couple downscaling profiles for DS games running on the Wii U, I should probably upload those somewhere as they worked quite well from what I remember
Ohh I didn’t know, but take that credit and run with it haha. It was a little different to any of the 1440x240 modelines on Guspaz’s calculator so I know someone clever had tweaked it. The input/output relationship is quiet particular on how the image is cropped and scanned so I’m sure someone will benefit from a WiiU specific profile
For me right now ODV GBS-C working perfectly for downscaling Switch (480p to 240p). Especially after soldering sync mixer it works like a charm.
The GBS is great for its price and I was doing the same as you early on when experimenting with the setup. A sync combiner is a good idea as it’s either that or a powered DAC for component
Great opening, i loved the money saving storytelling!
Thank you! The piggy was worth the sacrifice
We thank you for your service 🙏
I appreciate that 🫡
OMG that import tax, I've been dinged a couple times for a single border distance but nothing like that.😲Certainly a robust upscaler with a long list of options to adjust, not sure its worth that price you payed altogether though.
Realistically most SDTVs max out at 480i/525i so 1080p/720p downscaling is a bit much for 240p to handle. Given RGB AV quality 640x480 on a SDTV can look decent but still hard to read in average text scales Eg. reminds me of 360 Dead Rising where some people struggled with a SDTV back then heh.
Been speculating for a project and 480x360 seems to be the lost screen mode of the CRT era. While they always say there are no pixels on a CRT, the dot pitch and shadow mask quality relate to the scale of pixel shown on the screen where 320x240 isn't as decimated as 640x480 graphics on a SDTV. Thought I'd mention in reference to lag differentials in upscaling/downscaling.
Not many test samples for it out there since it was used more in 3D than 2D games, for example Armorines on N64 with Expansion Pak enabled does 480x360. Not many game consoles have that mode, PSP is close at native 480x272.
DOS/Win95 gaming standardized 360p around the time Quake1 came out as VESA drivers made all sorts of screen modes compatible to the video cards of the era. Again not a lot of game examples in 480x360, mostly FPS titles.
As a result of that history it barely ever comes up in CRT videos even though it has forward compatibility through 2X upscale through 720p. Anyway something to play with albeit in a limited capacity with such devices.🙂
Yeh it was hella expensive, I’m still recovering lol. I’m waiting patiently to see how the eventual Crosspoint addon will turn out for the Pixel FX Morph 4K. If the hardware and software is well optimised then it’ll be a much cheaper alternative and may even be more convenient for downscaling without needing an external DAC, we’ll have to wait and see. It’s difficult finding a CRT that supports mid resolution 24KHz. I’ve recently been looking for one to test another downscaler that can output 386p and 240p
The only issue I can see with the OSSC route, is that I literally cannot find anywhere that sells one. VGP used to have them, but they've been sold out for quite a long time.
I read in the latest newsletter VGP should have stock early August 2024. They wrote there should be enough to not have to pre order or wait list, hopefully you’ll have no trouble getting one
@@MarcoRetro316 cheers, mate! As an owner of two original OSSCs (a 1.5 with audio board and a 1.6), I think the Pro would do a lot better for me. Especially given the fact I have some old DOS computers (of which the HDMI input would pair great with the RGB2HDMI).
My man has all 3 of the major retro scalers 😮 jeeeeez
@@sneakingelephant I’d only be rocking 1 scaler if it weren’t for the Downscaling Chronicles. My wallet has definitely taken a hit in making these
@@MarcoRetro316 well i gotta thank you. You are making me consider the ossc pro despite owning the tink4k. I love playing around with downscaling
@@sneakingelephant these kinds of comments tells me it’s been a worthwhile journey. I’m eager to see how the Morph will behave as a downscaler. It has big shoes to fill against the OSSC Pro, hopefully it has some features to make it stand out
Any ideas of what scaler I can use to put a border around a 720p input and make a pixel perfect 768p output image?
@@harrysacket you could theoretically do that with the RetroTink 4K with a custom modeline. Some Corio2 TVOne scalers *might* allow you as well with a similar concept of a custom resolution. I know the border on TVOne’s are blue by default and not sure you can change to black. Otherwise some Extron scalers like the IN1606 have several 768 vertical outputs with differing horizontal sizes for aspect ratio. They have image resizing controls that may allow you to pad the 720p input
Saved me a fortune mate. Pro all the way for me
If it’s downscaling you want then yeh the Pro is better. Depends if 4K upscaling is needed, If so then the Tink 4K will suffice
So RT4K is (currently) a bad choice for 480i > 240p downscaling? Shame, that's my main usecase, I quite like having a non-software solution to play PS2 games in 240p. I sold my RT5X to help afford the 4K, so I'm currently lacking a device that's ideal for that... Which would you recommend today?
Only in my brief testing with a 480i input I’d say it’s not straightforward. Downscaling on the Tink4K generally worked well because of the pre-scale feature doing most of the vertical resizing, but I couldn’t get that to influence the 480i input whatsoever. Instead it was the CRT simulate feature that squeezed the 480i input vertically but I couldn’t get rid of the simulated 480i flicker that comes with that option. Otherwise with the over-scanned 480i, the vertical factor can probably be reduced below 1.0 similar to how I squeezed the horizontal factor for the 1080p input. I haven’t tried this but a similar approach would be to reduce the bottom crop, then reduce the vertical factor to 1.0, then increase the bottom crop and hopefully it drops below 1.0 and fits/centres itself.
If 480i to 240p is what you’re after and you’re on a budget then the GBS Control is the best option. Otherwise the RT5x and OSSC Pro are equally as good at 480i>240p. If budget isn’t an issue I recommend the OSSC Pro for downscaling, they should be in stock early August 2024.
i prefer ossc pro than r4k for downscaling😁 although i don't have both. nice intro btw 😁😂
Thanks mate, it cost me a kidney 🫘! I’m with you, the OSSC Pro is still the king of downscaling
Should have used shipito, once it’s there you can pay them extra to remove purchase amount from the package and specify a new value under the Aus import tax threshold. Would have saved yourself a lot.
A proxy shipper? Thanks for recommending, I didn’t think to look at other alternatives
what i learned today: the retrotink 4K costs a ligetime savings
And left kidney
Until we get a dedicated device its just not worth my time. Enjoy your videos thank you
Thank you! The OSSC Pro might be the closest thing so far. It would be nice to have an option that removes the upscaling capabilities to offset some of the cost. Not sure that’s even viable if the same hardware is needed
@@MarcoRetro316 That is kind of what I was thinking.
Hopefully your video series brings awareness to people like mike and markus that this is something a lot of people actually want and they can offer a dedicated downscaling version of their firmware.
If you can cater to vhs transfer 🙄 you can cater to downscaling.
Lol that intro 😄
Something lighthearted and wholesome 😆
Você pior difícil muito mil ricos ninguém só Porblema poxa parar
Lojas viu Ruim
$750 🤨😫 diferente
R$7.500.00 mil não quero pior
Retro Tink 4k
Retro Scaler 2x 🎉😂❤
R$299.00 lojas amém 🙌👏 bem quero limpar
Jazz Jackrabbit
12:14 keen ears!
I wonder if you are aware of how most "pixel art" games work these days, the vertical shimmer you see can't be avoided on consoles, on PC some well made games can avoid it completely looking amazing, others avoid it a certain degree. Some are pretty much perfect like Blazing Chrome giving a perfect 427x240 1x window and TOUHOU Luna Nights with a perfect 640x360 1x window (you'll need a VGA CRT to display this one correctly).
Most of the pixel art games have no real pixels, they just draw squares on screen and these do NOT represent the minimum possible display movement. These pixels are uneven sized by nature during scrolling even if they look ok in a screenshot and they are able to advance half a pixel causing shimmer even if pixel size is even. I studied many pixel art games and most are not made to be displayed with scanlines effect or on a CRT, they look like they could have perfect scanlines but... no.
Easy is "Evil Tonight" which won't offer a 1x window as its scrolling on every direction depends on moving half a pixel, it's a shame as it's a damn good game
Thank you for the in depth run down. Yes I’m fully aware about some modern pixel art assets not drawn to a strict base resolution hence the shimmer, though I could probably not have explained it as eloquently as you have. I deliberately choose such games to demonstrate that pixel art doesn’t automatically equal a good time if you force it into a 240p output and so viewers won’t wonder why it doesn’t look correct if they try using an external device for downscaling. These are the ‘non-vertical integer upscaled modern pixel art games’ (bit of a mouthful) that I go on about. I will eventually be making an episode on using a PC to output 15KHz, I just have to find time. I’ll be sure to look into Blazing Chrome, thanks for that suggestion. I don’t have a 24KHz compatible set on hand to try Luna Nights but I’ve generally capped the output at 15KHz so I can maintain focus on the topic. I’m not so well versed in PC’s so it may be surface-level knowledge for super users already using this method.
@@MarcoRetro316 don't think too much about VGA monitors complexities just think of them as 31+KHz monitors, they go from 480p (31KHz) to 1440p and some can go even higher, so you can just play any 720p or 1080p game there and get the motion resolution benefits. For 480p these monitors still show natural scanlines and look beautiful so these pixel art games that allow 1x are asking to be played in one of these monitors. Now a VGA CRT + RT4K is just a match made in heaven. Create a custom res on the RT4K 1280x1024 and take any pixel game on 720p, add deep dark scanlines, prescale at 1/2 or 1/3 and enjoy. This match will be superior to any downscaling as image will actually fit the screen
Sounds awesome. Having the L5 PVM’s has stopped me getting a PC CRT even though the L5’s don’t reach anywhere near the bandwidth of a PC monitor. I’ve avoided these scenarios more for the sake of keeping the series focused to 15KHz. I experience burn-out after making each video on a focused topic, let alone broader options. But I’ll never say never, once I’m up to date with all the available downscaling options I may look into a video dedicated to consumer HD CRT’s and PC monitors. Wife is gonna kill me if I bring home another CRT 😅
checkout this point the video 4:23 [Where can I get VGA2Scart?] Thanks!
I made the one featured in the video. There’s a few options to purchase
www.ebay.com.au/itm/114489119197?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=bPsiC-xhSsC&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=oXeW_LijToy&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
etim.net.au/shop/shop.php?crn=220&rn=582&action=show_detail
@@MarcoRetro316 Thanks. This is the same feature that you made in link?
@@nattapolnatt1301 they will functionally do the same thing but they both need external power to power the sync combining circuit. This product is closer to what I made with a passive sync combiner.
@@MarcoRetro316 got it! All Scart Tv, they need sync combiner with power, right?
@@nattapolnatt1301 yep you’re correct. I’m pretty sure the HD15 2Scart would allow voltage to pass through from VGA pin 9 to scart pin 16. The problem is that most HDMI to VGA converters won’t send voltage to VGA pin 9, so you may need one of the powered solutions. I use a Gscart switcher which sends blanking voltage regardless if the input doesn’t supply it, so that always saves me if I just want to input RGBs without worrying about introducing voltage to scart pin 16
Can the Retrotink4k do 1080i? And if so how does it compare to the OSSC PRO when it comes to lag?
The Tink4K is currently unable to output any interlaced resolutions, not sure that’ll change in the future. The OSSC Pro is getting 1080i 100/120Hz output in the next firmware update. The Pro has a line multiplier mode which is generally zero lag though I’m not sure 1080i output will be tied to that mode or the scaler mode which typically has the same lag as the RetroTink 4K at about 1.2 frames