I think Preston has a point actually. It's no secret Tyrion is George's favourite character, largely because of the constant wit and comebacks that fly out of his mouth. But George has to think them up first. So instead of advancing the plot, he's sitting there like a comedian writing their new routine.
@@theblackswordsman9951yeah I think that’s really the problem more then just Tyrion. He started the story not knowing exactly where it was going to go or end. Then decided to add a bunch of other characters that have there own story’s and are going to matter. Yes the show was great for awhile I think they killed the series. If George actually needed the money from the books he would write them. Rn he wants them to be perfect and there’s no reason to release them and deal with the criticism. I just think that’s messed up to the fans who are the reason he has all this success to not finish the story. Also I think if he accepted it needs to be more then 7 books that would help. I get it 7 kingdoms 7 books but you made ya story to big actually tell the story make the books. It just all would be better if the show wasn’t made till after the books were finished is my point
@@ayourmum8521he definitely needs to drop the 7 book idea, there is absolutely no way to finish the story in two more novels, not with the way George writes.
A Game of Thrones: Catelyn needs to go to King's Landing. Next chapter: she's in King's Landing. If George wrote the first book later in life there'd be six Catelyn chapters as she makes her way to KL.
@@amysteriousviewer3772 the thing for me is that honestly I wouldn't mind that the thing that's become so frustrating isn't the details and world building it's that he's focusing so intently on it now that we're half way through the story
@@avatarname0008 According to the original outline we are not even halfway actually. Dany‘s invasion is supposed to be the second main story arc while the White Walker threat is the third. We are still stuck in the aftermath of the War of the Five Kings and TWoW will probably end with Dany heading towards Westeros which is the beginning of the second arc which now also needs to cover a bunch of other mostly unrelated plot-lines so unless the third arc is drastically shorter than the others he would probably need 3 additional books to tie it all up properly. The story is simply too broad and convoluted at this point.
@@amysteriousviewer3772 Which is hilarious because even back in the 90s, AGoT ended up being one book growing into three books because of George’s gardening.
@@amysteriousviewer3772 Yeah, it's a shame he became so overly verbose. I mean, I wouldn't even go so far as to say I don't enjoy everything he writes, but he definitely forgot how to properly pace out his stories.
I mean D&D do have the point that George promised winds before they would reach season 5. Then season 5 comes and no new book. It hard to adapt a story that the author has yet to commit himself to a storyline for important parts of the book
Yeah there was no reason for that ending to be that bad. You could’ve went to any ASOIAF theory website and printed all the endgame theories put them on a dart board and threw a dart at it and used the one you hit and it would’ve been 100Xs better than what we got. It wasn’t that they wrote a bad script. The script was horrible and they put zero thought or effort into it which makes it worse than bad. They had a chance to go down as two of the greatest show runners of all time and they threw it away for what? Because they were “burned out” or “to do a Star Wars show”. Better to step down and give it to someone else than run your name through the mud. How cocky could you be to not realize what you had with GOT and that no one could replicate that type of success.
@@alexanderguerrero347 I some what agree, but they cut out a lot of usable material. Clearly some stuff had to go, and George clearly was never gonna finish in time, but they cut out entire side plots that could have been compelling, and would have bought them time. Dorne and Young Griff alone could have been seasons of their own.
@@alexanderguerrero347 That's a very poor excuse when you look at how little of ADWD and AFFC is in seasons 5 - 6. It's basically a shadow of a sketch, except not even that. That material is easily 2 - 3 seasons of events even if done sloppily. They basically hit warp speed and then cried about not having material to adapt.
@@alexanderguerrero347 As others have said, they could have done any of the following: 1) Done some research and found some good end-game theories to draw from. There are dozens and dozens of fantastic theories that make a lot of sense, even if they aren't exactly what GRRM will do. Hell, even the fake leaks that came out about season 8 were better than the real season 8. 2) Hire more writers and researchers to do a lot of the work for them (specifically, my #1 point above). 3) Hand the show off to people who actually care. There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of more talented writers and showrunners that HBO has connections with. I have no sympathy for extreme narcissists who go out of their way to ruin a once in a generation opportunity, then blame someone else.
@@sparingpickle4918I’m cool with it. Tyrion is not my favorite character. He’s served his purpose and Dave and Dan basically gave us White Washed Tyrion. And that version fails spectacularly. I just see the same for book Tyrion.
I think it is a bit of an overstatement to say Tyrion "tricked" Aegon to go west, not east. Tyrion is being rather nihilistic at this point, going so far as to consider himself an undead "revenant" haunting Westeros, and he is rather pleased to see he has caused yet another facet of conflict to rise up in Westeros (which Cersei and Jaime will have to deal with, both of whom Tyrion despises). This isn't Tyrion actively sabotaging Aegon's cause, he is pleased to have wrought a new problem for Westeros as a whole to deal with.
Adding onto this, even if he had a selfish agenda, he had a point. Aegon will look a LOT more formidable and impressive to Dany if she finds him already conquering with the Golden Company, rather than him showing up at Dany's feet, offering a marriage. Dany is already married, and Aegon doesn't have anything definitive to prove who he is. We saw similar problems with Quentyn. This way, he's kind of forcing her to make a move, rather than asking her to make a move.
I kind of agree with Glidus+X that the "five year gap" is over-emphasized in discussions, but it's clear that George was reluctant to commit to any sort of time jump. George was worried that he'd make a long years/months jump and would miss details of Jon's time as LC, Dany's time leading Meereen, Tyrion on his travels, and so many others. He was afraid of the idea of "five years have passed, yet no real major plot points have happened, and now all of my POVs are experiencing significant events." But the other option to him was "describe every little second of all of these characters' lives" and now he's set the pace of the narrative to what it is, which is why so many people think the story can't possibly finish in under nine books.
@@umwha I think the LN will begin towards the end of TWOW and last most of ADOS, in George's mind. I think ADOS will span upon several years. The title explains the general mindset of humanity during this time, dreaming of spring. But who knows, should the book ever come out, GRMM might just do something entirely different to what he had us expect.
I feel like green dreams are a convenient plot device to experience what is in the past, at this point he can really show anything and hint to it being King Bran
@@umwha Jon obviously can be ressurected months after his death. The Others have no problems ressurecting corpses which are barely more than skeletons. But I think that the longer he stays dead, the least his humanity remains.
The time skip is very important. There is a reason why Bran, Jon, Sansa and the rest are so young. They are meant to age throughout the story, yet without a time skip they barely age. Also after storm most of them are settled, they are learning and consolidating. Nothing interesting happens during that. Sure if you are a skilled writer even boring things can become interesting. But barely anything worthy of a story happens in feast and dance, it's like the years after world war one. There are no major players duking it out. The main bad guys are a priest, catelyns brother in a castle, janos slynt and other nobodys.
Yeah, I fully expect him to be rather villainous throughout all of Winds and most of Spring. I imagine that he is a force that urges Daenearys to be more brutal and violent and villainous, herself, until he gets redeemed (or never does, but realizes the error of his ways) after Jaime dies.
@@stephengrant4841Jamie ain’t going to die lol 😂 he’s going to go full circle and kill cersie to stop her from burning all of kings landing. Then he’ll end up being knight that fights for Jon along with tyrion.
@@sparingpickle4918 So you think Jon ends up king with Tyrion as Hand and Jamie as kings guard?Is that what you’re saying? I doubt Jon takes the throne, it’s too cliche. Bran will probably be king like how the show ended.
@@stephengrant4841 Naw I think bran be hand and Jon king. I think the series will end with jamie and tyrion both surviving and then selling casterly rock to be done with the Lannister “legacy” for good. I also think cersie is going to cut out tyrions tongue in the next book as well 🤷♂️🤷♂️
Lots of characters threaten to have Tyrion's tongue cut out, and one of them actually should have by the time A Dance With Dragons happened because 1. it would have spared us a lot of dialogue from him we didn't need, advancing the plot. 2, it would have felt poetic for him to lose what defined him and then have to rebuild himself like Jaime losing his sword hand, Cersei losing her beauty, Bran losing his ability to walk and so forth, and 3, it could have shown Tyrion that actions speak louder than words.
It actually makes sense for Tyrion to bring Penny along - sure, she's like him and she is pitiful, and because of his actions (or his family; Cersei) her brother was murdered - but more important... Tyrion is suicidal, he wants to punish others, even the world, but he also feels like he should be punished himself, and here comes someone willing to punish him.
The longer it takes for winds the more jaded Preston becomes. I hope preston still wants to read it by the time it comes out because I don’t want anyone els to explain to me what I read.
Preston's arc isn't to become jaded, his arc is finding out that George isn't lazy, producing something good is way way harder than it seems, and actually we the fandom are just entitled babies with 0 empathy
@@SolarPlayerIm sorry it’s very hard to have empathy for a man who has grown rich off a series that isn’t even finished and has manipulated his fans for over a decade.
@@SolarPlayerFans are not entitled to anything other than honesty. And I'll eat my words if Winds comes out but I don't think he's worked on it since some point between 2017 and 2019. Martin's behavior is the problem. He wants the adulation and instant acceptance of his other projects so he can do things like play on television sets. But he got stuck and wants to enjoy the time he has left. More power to him. Let him enjoy his wealth. Disappointing but understandable. He needs to level with people though and stop being a petulant jagoff when criticized. Is that really being entitled?
Tyrion’s chapters in ADWD were hard to get through on my first read. Later I appreciated them because they were world-buildy and they contained lots of Easter eggs important for other storylines. Ultimately though, not a lot actually HAPPENS in Tyrion’s chapters in ADWD.
Yeah but thats kind of the point Tyrion did something traumatic and can't function like he did. Tyrion most of his life was a pawn by his Father, to some extent by Jaime, and then he realized that and now Varys is using him as a pawn. Tyrion doesn't want to be a pawn anymore.
I just finished ADWD and the Tyrion chapters captivated me just because I loved the deviation of Tyrion’s persona from GoT at the end of Storm of Swords. Now having finished the book and looking back I realize Tyrion chapters are the ones I remember the least about. Also I was listening via audiobook so all of the chapters passed the same timewise whether I was interested in them or not, maybe that had something to do with why I didn’t find Tyrion chapters dragging lol idk
Nonsense! Tyrion and Jorah's high-stakes tiara-shopping in Volantis is the best part of the entire series! Its surpassed only by that riveting part of Tyrion II where he's looking at dung on the Valyrian road... Lol I made the mistake of reading part of Tyrion in ADwD back-to-back with Daenerys III AGoT. Dany travels more in a paragraph than Tyrion does in several chapters.
Giving Duck and Haldon extended backstory makes sense when you consider what Aegon is, but the execution could have been better. Aegon and the Aegon Cause is meant to be people rising up from poor conditions or unfortunate circumstances to become something in the world. Total nothings who would otherwise be forgotten carving their own way in the world, albeit with fire and steel. Rolly Duckfield was a blacksmith's son without a surname who beat up his Lord's son that was stealing from him and ran to escape death. A poor kid who just wanted to have the sword his dad made him was sentenced to death for attacking a upperclassman's kid. Haldon is a very good teacher and advisor but he didn't get promoted to Maester and quit. Was it because he just wasn't good at one or two particular subjects? Politics in the Citadel, maybe? It happens in workplaces all of the time in real life. Septa Lemore was pregnant once and is now in service to the Faith. Did she lose the baby? Was it out of wedlock? Did the father die? JonCon was stripped of his home and got exiled because he didn't win a battle and now suffers PTSD from the event. Aegon himself was raised among fishermen and had to work to survive. If he's even a real Targaryen/Blackfyre, he still had a rough upbringing that was designed to teach him how the lower class suffers and needs support from the upper class and politicians. And the Golden Company itself, Aegon's private army, is made up of the children of exiles who fought for the losing side in a civil war that started because a fat loser couldn't make it clear who his preferred heir was. Thousands and thousands of people who quite literally fight to survive are trying to return to their ancestral homeland and settle down. If it would have been handled a bit better, it might have been more obvious that the Aegon Cause is trying to paint itself as the altruistic cause where anyone can rise to the top and have their own future. Hell, Rolly Duckfield went from being a smith's son to being the Lord Commander of someone's King's Guard. If he can do that, anyone can do anything if they try hard enough and have the support system behind them.
Tyrion in aDWD is really cool the second time but I remember how when his story finally got super interesting with Aegon and Jon he just separates from them and gets kidnapped by freaking Jorah, I felt that as a personal attack.
I kinda of disagree with the statement that nothing happens on Tyrion chapters because we are introduced to young Griff and Tyrion makes his invasion start. Besides o really loved the world building and his dealing with the trauma he had just lived
@@avatarname0008 Jon chapters are pretty essential imo. Nothing in any of them progresses Jon’s story itself that much, but it is a fantastic creep of unease leading to Jon’s death and each individual chapter always progresses a story of a relevant side character at the very least. The main thing I disliked about Dany chapters is the amount of time spent developing Ghiscari characters in Meereen who I can’t imagine being at all relevant in the coming climax of the story. At least the characters that get developed through Jon’s dance chapters like Melisandre, Mance, Stannis, Tormund, the night’s watch etc are at the wall where shit is going down and no doubt influence the main plot which is the coming of the long night. Unfortunately I can’t see Reznak mo Reznak / Hizdahr zo Loraq / Skahaz zo whatever tf being important. Honestly the only meaningful thing that happens in Dany dance chapter is in X when she’s having fever dreams that tell her the Meereen plotline isn’t important 😂
I agree..i think the main thing that happens is we see the transformation happening in Tyrion and the darkness brewing in him. NOW, if Tyrion goes back to being exactly the same as he was in acok i will agree all that character development that happened in adwd and began in asos was all for naught...but if in twow we see a brand new Tyrion, an "evil" tyrion, well anyone who wasn't paying attention may be surprised but for those who read carefully they will be rewarded for it. I mean the Tyrion chapters do feel a bit bloated tho ngl. But i wouldn't say "nothing" happened..it justice could've been told in a few fewer chapters. But i think preston is missing the point. Its character development, that's not nothing.
Here's my hot take if you're going to have Tyrion not appear for an entire book that would probably be the time to have him crossing an entire continent where nothing much happens to him ... George couldve made that timeline work ... plus a suprise reveal of Tyrion in the East somewhere wouldve been fun
If I recall correctly, almost every Storm of Swords Tyrion chapter had already been written when Game of Thrones was published. Tyrion was George's narrative zipline.
@@Conorp77”gardening” is why AFFC and ADWD took so long and why we’ll never get winds. It’s a pretentious, self-masturbatory idea he clearly picked up in the 2000s.
I actually enjoyed all of the Tyrion chapters in Dance, and I liked the Volantis chapter a lot. I liked how it set up the future involvement in the Dany storyline and I enjoy seeing Jorah brought down a peg by the widow. I love the Shy Maid chapters and the one where Tyrion joins the second sons. He is in a very dark place in this book and it sets up his role in the end game, I wonder if given a choice would he join Dany, Aegon or will he do what he can to destroy his siblings and Kings Landing, not caring whether Dany or Aegon come out on top at the end of it all.
Tyrion chapters sets up the slaves of pentos being ready to revolt. And the followers of the Red God. And all of the stuff with FAegon. I think its good set up.
I always felt that George set himself up for a lot of trouble down the line with his PoV structure. The reality of the matter is that there will be times in a story where a lot is going on in one PoV while there is almost nothing going on in another. Other authors could simply skip over that time by staying with an eventful PoV for longer but due to the fact that George always switches PoVs every chapter and has his set of "main PoV" characters he basically always has to create filler plot-lines to bridge that uneventful time which often results in superfluous chapters.
23:45 - Maybe Duck was originally going to take Mormont's role? I don't mean kidnapping Tyrion, necessarily. But I mean in the sense that maybe him and Tyrion were going to be forced to go on a solo journey somehow. Like they get separated from Griff and Young Griff somehow? It could make sense. And then Martin eventually decided it'd be better to give that role to Jorah.
I for one enjoy all the drawn out descriptions in Tyrions chapters. I feel like I got a tour of more of Essos. I felt the same longing to see the world like Lomas Longstrider that Tyrion expressed in the earlier books, and that fullfilled that. I did notice in Winds though that a ton of the 'action' takes place in the characters heads as they ruminate. All the mantras come out as well. "Wherever whores go" "Shes fucking lancel..etc" That sort of thing is impossible to adapt to the screen, so no wonder Dave and Dan scrapped it all.
Those mantras are also getting really old at this point in my opinion especially because I doubt many of them will even have any plot or character relevance. George, we get it. We don't need characters thinking the same damn phrase all the time.
@@amysteriousviewer3772 i wonder what sort of mantras george tortures himself with. I wonder if someone once threw in his face that Lisa Tuttle was fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy or something
@@amysteriousviewer3772they already have character relevance, and why wouldn't they eventually have further plot relevance? But yes, they can get repetitive. Like my favorite character, Davos "I lost my luck when I lost my fingers" Seaworth. @EricsHobbyWorkshop I also thoroughly enjoyed Tyrion's tour of Essos. It reminded me of Frodo trekking across Middle Earth... If Frodo were jaded, crude, and hateful.
I’ve always felt that the first few chapters of Tyrion in Winds is somewhat self-explanatory. The Westerosi characters that headed to Meereen (Tyrion, Quentin, Vic, Jorah) were all there to see Dany. But now Dany is gone and the city is in chaos. This was because Dany and her court were uniquely unequipped to deal with the Harpy and Meereenese politics through lack of political guile, the inability to take risks and lack of outright brutality (and therein the lack of follow through.) Tyrion would be an excellent POV to actually figure out who the Harpy is. Uncovering the Green Grace conspiracy is something that Barristan was wholly unable to do, but having a real political maneuverer in Meereen is exactly what Dany needs. His time as Hand could be played upon heavily here. It’s exactly what he needs as a character. Quentin would be an excellent husband for Dany. Preston has set him up to be a dragon rider. He is clearly motivated by a desire to ride dragons, to do the bidding of his father, and to marry Dany. And there is no way she would be attracted to him considering he’s a charred mess. Also they’re both infertile. Vic becoming Dany’s Master of Ships was set up with the death of Grolio. He’s kind of the wild card in terms of loyalty, but if Dany was to take both him and Quentin as husbands it wouldn’t matter and would also be a cool Aegon reversal. Securing both the Iron Islands and Dorne (the two historically most unruly kingdoms) would give the Feast chapters so much newfound relevance. Vic could continue to have his salt wives but obviously his lust for The Dragon Queen could be used to set up further conflict. Either way, I think George was trying to set up Dany’s new, smarter, faster, stronger and yes, crueler court. Imagine Dany returning to Meereen and having the Green Grace’s head presented to her and the Harpies strung up. Out with the old, in with the new.
Also to clarify: Vic and Quentin wouldn’t be as perfect of a fit as I maybe outlined here. They’d definitely cause problems within the cause. Them dying down the line is not out of the question and is probably certain at this point. It’s Tyrion who would be used as a contrast, kind of more stable and even keel ruler. His desire to be the smartest man in the room would eventually trump his desire for blind revenge. He’d also probably fall in love with Dany because of course he would lmfao
ASOIAF is not a plot driven story but a character driven one. Tyrion has always been my most favorite chapters to read. I'm not overly obsessed with plot moving forward as much as I am invested in the characters themselves. Most fans just seem obsessed with Dany and white walkers getting to Westeros. Maybe it's just me but I find other plot points more interesting.
@@americansoccerunited That describes literally every fictional piece of media, even in something like The Sopranos (IMO one of the most character driven shows of all time), the characters move the plot with their decisions.
The ASoIaF fandom is steadily changing from a fantasy book fandom into a support group for disappointed people so far gone that they've even given up on hiatus brain.
I don't think this is qualitatively different from the slow pace of Feast. You can do this plot synopsis where you show how very little is happening story wise, but you gloss over what is happening with the characters and their environment. We follow Brienne and pretty much every village she passes along her journey, talking about their histories and how the war has affected those places.
Agree with Preston about Tyrion being clever to the point where it becomes annoying in his chapters and understanding d&d struggling to write dialogue for him. However, watching seasons 6, 7 and 8 I'm convinced they didn't even try hard.
Lol remember when they just started reusing old clever lines that had been said previously? "Give me x good men and I'll Impregnate the bitch" or something like that he said it in the last season and Bronn said it seasons earlier
@@nordette exactly, or quotes like s8 varys-" when a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin ..."like we haven't heard that one before. They literally recycled and phoned it in.
@@nordette Yeah, there's one time Tyrion quotes an old season 1 line, but when you look back it was something Littlefinger said to Ned in a closed room with no one else there...
I think one of the problems is that somewhere between Storm and Feast GRRM developed a massive love of cliffhangers, and as a result, every tiny plot development now gets a full chapter of built-up and then the cliffhanger. Reading the first three books it's kinda shocking how much could happen in a single chapter back then!
I think there multiple reasons working together. 1. Tyrion, as explained here 2. The Battle of Fire has to many POVs just like the Mereenese knot 3. The only POV at the wall is Melisandre and showing magic from the eyes of a experienced sorceress is less mysterious. So he might want other POVs for the resurrection
on point 3, one could use Melisandre's POV of the resurrection to communicate that even the mysterious and powerful witch doesnt actually understand what she's doing and is just performing rituals by rote that she was taught.
Dolorous Edd would be a really fun POV for that if Jon didn't send him to some random castle. Though Edd has nearly as many zingers as Tyrion does so that might be difficult to write.
I do think that the point of these chapters is to show that tyrion is turning into exactly what everyone had been accusing him of. Kind of interesting and gives us a chance to notice details of set pieces that have not had a pov character in a long time. So not exactly plot necessary, but seems like the tyrion character arc needed this
I think you kind of answered your own question on why they would spend a lot of time of Ser Rolls Duckfield. He IS an important character. He's the first of Aegon's KG and is about to help him take Storm's End. The fact that his nickname makes him and his king "Duck and Egg" is also a pretty clear sign he's destined for greater things imo.
I know I'm off topic, but I always really liked how the opening line for Quentyn's first chapter was, "Adventure stank." I feel like that says so much and has a lot of depth to it. The very things that we all dream of, our greatest desires, our own fabled quest for glory, smells of shit and piss, death and unimaginable suffering. It's a fantasy held up by the scourged backs of the enslaved and downtrodden. A rude awakening to reality.
I read a theory years ago that Penny was written as a similar warning to fans who wished they could live in Westeros. She seems out of place in that world because she has (on purpose) 21st century Western values, sensibilities and expectations about how the world works. Thrown in the crapsack world of Westeros... It's not pretty.
@@kragarywho thinks Westeros is a fantastical place? Seems exactly what it is, a place where everyone from the lowest of lows and the highest of highs would stab you in the back to climb one higher rung. Can’t even trust your immediate family.
Was rewatching your purple wedding video and had a thought, what if Tywin helped in joffrey’s murder? He explicitly states his disdain for Joffrey and how uncontrollable he was, and I know you don’t like to use the show as reference but we get a lot more indicatives in it including a “I will deal with him” right before the wedding, and starting to groom tommen right after joffrey’s death. It also seems strange that he seemed to actually believe Tyrion was the culprit, he knew the whole trial was a sham and it’s hard for me to believe he’d think tyrion would just murder the king and then stand there pleading himself innocent, he knew him better than that, even if he was suspicious I doubt he’d just stand there and not go after other possible suspects. The murder falls right into his hands, get a king he can control and get rid of tyrion, not to mention it would explain littlefinger’s involvement since he was the bridge between tywin and the tyrells, olenna voiced her concerns about Joffrey, tywin or baelish hatched the plan and the latter took care of arranging the whole thing in exchange for Sansa.
The death of a Lannister King, especailly a public murder, even if you have a spare, is a massively humiliating and disempowering thing for house Lannister.
The joke is there are multiple plots to kill Tyrion and he oblivious to them, but survives anyway accidentally killing his enemy. Think Clouseau in Pink Panther or Mr. Magoo.
I agree Joff’s death was convenient for Tywin, as Tywin didn’t want another Robert 2.0, he wanted someone he could control. I think Tywin knew Tyrion didn’t do it, but he turned a blind eye as it was convenient to get rid of him. Although I don’t think he murdered Joffrey because publicly killing the king at his own wedding would shame House Lannister
@@nicke-ow5yd I remember a lot of speculation from show fans in season 4 about whether Tywin was complicit in the assassination plot. He seemed remarkably ready to accept the story that Tyrion was guilty. This is more plausible if he actually knew about the Tyrell plot but decided it would be more convenient to allow it to proceed and then blame Tyrion for the murder. Of course after Tywin himself was killed these speculations became moot.
Maybe all the focus on Duck could be a way to show how important he is to someone else? So like his importance to Faegon? Or maybe it's just seeding for something that he plans to happen later.
...I guess a lot of the Tyrion ADwD could pay off in TWoW? If Tyrion and Dany retrace Tyrion's steps? Revisit and reinterpret the ruins of the Rhoyne and Andalos in the context of dragons (maybe find the House with the Red Door?) I think this line (among others) certainly sets up Daenerys' attack of Volantis: "If I were khal, I would feint at Selhorys, let the Volantenes rush to defend it, then swing south and ride hard for Volantis itself." (Tyrion VI ADwD)
Tyrion's ADWD story could have really benefitted from some of that breakneck AGOT pacing. Keep in mind that Dany travels from Pentos to the Dothraki Sea off-screen between two chapters. No 10 chapter travelogue describing every hill and village they came across along the way. Tyrion in ADWD kind of feel like George wasn't completely sure what do with him. He knew Tyrion needed to end up with Dany and he knew that he would spend some time with Aegon and JonCon but everything else feels pretty arbitrary and like it could have been swapped out for any other set of circumstances. I think maybe George was trying to go for the same vibe Tyrion had in AGOT where he travels through half of Westeros and gets involved in all sorts of shenanigans, but the difference is that in that book all the things that happened to Tyrion (going to the Wall, getting captured by Cat, his trial at the Eyrie, fighting on the Trident) were actually relevant to the other stories being told. Being captured by Cat and being tried by Lysa actually had a profound impact on all of Westeros (as it basically set off the Wot5K) as compared to being captured by random slavers and being sold to a random Yunkish nobleman. I get that in a way Tyrion's story is kind of supposed to feel like a drag because that's kind of the headspace he's in after killing his father, but it still feels like George wasn't entirely sure how to resolve this inner conflict. Tyrion at the end deciding that he wants to live after all comes pretty out nowhere and doesn't feel like something that came as a result of what the character actually experienced. Maybe we'll get some better Tyrion in Winds again but with Dance Tyrion really just became a way for George to shove in a bunch of mostly unnecessary worldbuilding.
Tyrion XXVI TWoW: The Valyrian road was lightly flecked in snow, shimmering beneath the stars. Straight and flat it was, raised half a foot above the frozen earth. Four hundred years this has been here, at least, Tyrion thought. Through summer and winter, spring and autumn. War and flood and famine, and not a bit of it has left its mark. To the west the road was a bluish silver river like the flight of some great arrow, fearlessly driving towards the horizon and further on, to the stormswept sea and the lands beyond. Would that it were an arrow, he thought as he picked at the ice that clung to the smooth stone. He imagined loosing it, straight and true, launching it across the narrow sea. King's Landing was due west of here, he judged, or near enough to make no matter. He recalled the comet that had streaked the sky, as Joffrey ascended his throne. How sweet it would have been, if that comet had come down on them like an arrow, to crash into the Red Keep and reduce all who dwelt there to ashes. Joffrey would have looked oh so comely with his hair burnt away, his every bone shattered and his youthful skin black and blue and green beneath the burns. And my sweet sister... But it was no good. All the giants were dead and gone, he'd read, so not a man alive could heft an arrow as wide as the road before him, and not even the strongest of that lost people could have sent it hurling across the sea. Even the Sarnori, the tall men who'd conquered these plains when the world was young and plied the finest bows in the world a thousand years before the first dothraki khalasar would not have been equal to the task. His fingers were properly chilled by then, and he'd cleared the flakes on snow from no more than a handspan and the smooth stone. Dawn must surely come soon, he thought, shifting his weight uncomfortably. One of his legs began to cramp, so he shifted his stance to stretch it out, and buried his icy fingers in his armpit. He glanced east and saw the faintest hint of blush in the silver of the road. Dawn, perhaps, come to unfurl itself in golden glory, with shining banners of magenta and vermilion and cerulean. Or... he watched the light brighten on the edge of the road east. There was slight reddish tinge to it, a molten quality that spoke of savage fires from within the earth. Our queen returns. He grinned. No man could hurl a missile across the narrow sea, not even a giant. But there were other things, things more wonderful and terrible, that could do even better. Then it continues on for several pages; Tyrion starts picking at the ice on the road with the other hand, then that gets too cold so he switches back. His other leg starts to cramp, so he stretches it. He imagines that the little flecks of ice on the road are Cersei and Jaime and everyone who ever laughed at him, and crushes them and melts them and imagines Cersei's bright green eyes popping as she screams and burns. Then he has to relieve his bladder so he finds a likely clump of bushes, then it starts to snow again so all his hard work boredly doodling with the road is undone. Then Dany finally shows up and she's like "hey Tyrion, I was scouting our rear and the Qartheen camels are closing in! I wanna give them fire and blood!" And Tyrion lists all the obscure historiography he knows about how dragons were used in combat against camels. ...though I dunno, if GRRM wrote that, I would still devour it and reread it so many times and try to work out all sorts of epic themes and parallels to the other plotlines. GRRM is such an amazing writer.
I remember at one point looking Duck up on the wiki and being flabbergasted that there was quite a bit there about his backstory. I was like "wait what? when did that happen???" I completely forgot he explained his life's story. Completely fled my memory. We don't get anything on Lemore or Haldon, oh no they're left as mystery boxes. Really crucial to establish what's up with the forgettable one.
Hes so pretentious about it too. I also hate his "what was aragorn's tax policy" question as tho he thinks hes so clever for poking holes in someone else's story. Hey george, maybe Tolkien purposefully ignored medieval accounting practices in his sprawling fantasy epic because its not that interesting? Like, did you ever think of that? Maybe we just want a solid story arc and no one cares about the nitty gritties of what constitutes "happily ever after." I mean at least Tolkien had enough focus to finish his story, meanwhile i feel like we know everything about Westeros except what anyone actually cares about...
@@theCarbonFreeze speaking of LOTR I am convinced George never ever read it or watched the movies for that matter. He keeps saying it has a black and white ending and his would be more bittersweet but what the fuck is more bittersweet than Frodo leaving for Aman, huh žeorže? smelly old asshat
I might be in the minority here, but I loved the Tyrion chapters in Dance. It really has a classic adventure novel feel, similar to the Hobbit if Bilbo was completely deranged
I honestly skip all the Tyrion/Dany chapters and everything Essos on every reread of every book after ASoS and I don’t feel like I’m missing out on ANYTHING.
Old George would have had Tyrion in Mereen by Tyrion 3, latest Tyrion 4. If George wrote Game of Thrones now, it would end with Ned just arriving in King’s Landing.
Imagine if they take Tyrion out of the crate and hes already in Mereen! lmao. Strong Belwas holding a crowbar, Ser Barristan panicking, Dany being confused.
@@kragary I dont really see a reason not to use "crate" and "barrel" interchangeably lol. They still put him in a tiny wooden container to unload him infront of Illyrio, same thing could have happened in Mereen.
I don't think the Jorah in the same brothel thing is that ridiculous. They are both foreigners from Westeros, both from aristocratic backgrounds, and both the kind of men who would be in a brothel. In a medieval type world no cities are the size of New York or Tokyo. London had the population of a small city, 80k, in 1300. There's a good chance men in their circumstance would wind up in the same establishment if they were in the same city.
People really hated that movie when it first came out but I think its slow pace is rather appropriate. It was a rather reflective personal sort of story about friendship and the search for meaning and the pace suited it though nowadays it would be a miniseries.
The significance of the mushrooms was that Trion was considering killing himself up until that point. then he decided he wanted to live and gave them to Nurse
Its not nothing if people enjoy reading tyrion's chapters. Feels a bit redundant to say all those clever prose and lines are a waste of time just because it doesn't enhances the plot forward.
It kind of is if you have George unwillingness to cut unimportant filler and lore that just bloat the story to ridiculous proportions and not even finish it. Prose is well and good BUT at some point you have to show restraint and actually advance the plot.
I think he gets carried away with Tyrion too easily. He loves the character and dedicates a lot of chapters to him. As Tyrion always has to have a clever line, he Is rewriting it over and over again, returning to it every time he thinks od something new. He does not have a problem with Tyrion like other characters, but you must stop with rewriting at some point to make a progress.
Tyrion is sooo annoying in Dance omg Knowing now that he's 18% of the book makes me understand why it's my least favourite in the series (which hits even harder since Feast is my favourite) Tyrion has some great moments but most of his chapters are such a snooze fest I like world building in general but did we really need all those chapters on the Shy Maid?
This might be a hot take but I don't think the stories of feast and dance are worth telling, for the most part. Just like it wasn't worth telling the story of how littlefinger, jon arryn and others schemed in the years before game of thrones. Or daenerys and viserys were constantly moving escaping roberts assassins before khal drogo accepted a marriage. Or mance raider convincing the wildlings to fight for him. It's interesting sure, but it can be explained in a few sentences, or implied by a larger narrative. The first three books are masterpieces, great combinations of great settings and great writing. Just consider Robb's story in the first three books. A boy of 15 forces to take on a role he is not ready for yet when his father is imprisoned far away. He calls all of his fathers subjects. An intimidating and uncertain future lies ahead. Yet when he first faces a battle he proves to be an excellent strategist and suddenly there is hope for his family and his father. His father is executed and his bannermen proclaims him king. The war continues, he wins many battles but eventually he is betrayed by his allies and is slain during his uncles wedding. This is a great story no matter what universe it is set in, because of the initial tension, the stakes and the unsuspecting conclusion. There is no such story that would be easily told at the moment in a song of ice and fire. The story is slow and it is obviously impossible to describe the entire build up to the next war. It involves so many characters and so many details and plot points. Unfortunately that is what GRRM is doing and I think that is the reason why he can't finish the series. I have said for years now that a time skip is required. I said it even before GRRM told us that he originally planned a time skip. The problem is that there is no tension in the world between MAJOR players. Just consider how game of thrones started: - Jon Arryn is dead and Ned is going to be the next hand of the king - Daenerys has married Khal Drogo - The white walkers starts attacking the rangers of the north - Wildlings have united around one person, their new king mance raider Immediately there is plenty of tension between important people and families. Stark vs Lannister. Lannister and Arryn. Baratheon and Lannister. Targaryen and Baratheon. Wildlings and Starks. As mentioned the series is very slow paced so it is very important that the state of the world is at the tipping point for the story to be as engaging as possible. It is also much easier to write. The setting was so genius and interesting in fact that GRRM wrote the first three books in record pace, around 2 years each if I don't misremember. For such big books it is really impressive. That tension is what I wanted for the sequel of storm. Jon, Arya, Sam, Bran and others have all been training for 5 years in their respective fields. They are older, more experienced and wiser. Arya can use her faceless skills without needing to explain how. Jon is a better leader and better fighter and he has accomplished a lot. Stannis has consolidated power in the northern part of the north. The stakes across the world should be high, war should be imminent but not too imminent as we need a build up in the books. Wherever GRRM wants to go but finds it difficult to do just jump there in time. You don't need to explain everything in dreams or recollections, let some details be mysterious for a time. What Dorne has done, young griff etc.
Only a third way through so this is subject to change, but I disagree overall with the sentiment of the vid. I love the ADWD Tyrion chapters, and I don’t mind GRRM moseying around in prose and exposition. All the while, Aegon is introduced, we learn Illyrio and Varys game, Jorah is introduced back into the story, we see slavers bay on the other side of mereen walls, and we’re about to converge with Victorian, Barristan, and Dany. I love it
Tyrion chapters are amazing truly, but he is easily the PoV I care about the less or maybe the one I enjoy less, and this has been ever since I read the books 12 years ago and happens every time I read them again. Good luck with the fanfic, you can always go the Bran aDwD and Dany aCoK having very few chapters, or kill him lol.
For Tyrion VII: The widow on the waterfront is testing Tyrion and Jorah as she doesn’t trust them at first. There are likely a lot of people in Volantis who want her dead. The altercation with Penny and the reaction Jorah and Tyrion have to her is very revealing of their characters. The widow realizes that Jorah’s dedication to Dany and Tyrion’s understanding of her cause are beneficial. So she helps them in the hope they help Dany make it to Volantis. Just my two cents.
Tyrion’s story is spelled out in the cyvass game with Aegon. He will convince Daenerys to not rule with fire and blood (keep her dragon away), but this will lead to her not being accepted as queen (Aegon losing the game), she burns down Westeros (Aegon flips the board), and Tyrion is left picking up the pieces of the game he started, probably regretfully.
First rule of writing that wealthy writers forget: "kill your babies" aka if you like something you wrote a lot make sure to cut it down because otherwise it's too long. Unfortunately good editing is inversely related to success.
Yeah I think the reason George is having trouble progressing is largely because a few POVs with very complex situations or that need intricate setup. Tyrion and Jaime need witty situations and thoughts for instance which isn't easy to come up with. I sometimes think the 5 year gap thing though it was clearly abandoned pretty early on; probably would have been good for the plot overall. I'd have gladly traded the suspension of my disbelief that things slowed down for a few years for a more streamlined plot. But I think that George didn't want to miss exploring details of John learning to be LC, Sansa becoming politically adept, etc. But instead now everything feels quite rushed. I wxpect if George finishes it in the next 2 books some plot threads will be abandoned. And honestly? That's just fine by me.
This does make you appreciate Tolkiens economy of words. Essentially, completing three tales in fives books and an incredibly detailed world from flowers to titans
I liked tyrion 7 but I am a sucker for the world building. The city came to life in my imagination so good work on grrm for his descriptions but I can see the point Preston is making.
So many strange takes in this video that I really don't agree with, specifically the takes about Tyrion's chapters not containing much. Yeah, Tyrion 1 is long, but it's a recap, which you acknowledge. It's also supposed to demonstrate his drastic personality shift from Storm of Swords: He's so much more nihilistic and just straight up EVIL. Obviously the events of ASoS have had a major impact on him, and in order for us to see that we need a lot of page time. We also haven't spent any time with Illyrio since book 1, so I think the time spent with him is very interesting. Then we meet Duck and Haldon, and spend a lot of time on Duck's back-story, which you object to and compare him to Jory. Again, I have a lot of issues with this comparison. The purpose of Jory's arc is to establish an extremely loyal, trustworthy companion to Ned, and to then kill him off as the first major casualty of the conflict. This moment is the first shocking death of the story, and shows us that shit is getting real VERY fast. On the other hand, Duck is very much alive and could still absolutely play a massive role in the coming story as fAegon's most trusted soldier/kingsguard. Just because he hasn't shown up much so far doesn't mean he won't in the future. If he was killed in Dance then yeah, I'd agree with you, but it's just way too early to say that he doesn't have a large enough role to warrant the large amount of backstory that we get. If anything, I'd say it indicates that he's going to be quite important in Winds. Then, on the Shy Maid, SO much exposition happens: we're introduced two new, massively consequential characters: fAegon and Jon Con, plus Septa Lemore whose true identity remains a mystery. There's also a lot of great worldbuilding: we get some insight as to what sort of education is given to a would-be ruler, and learn a ton about Volantis and the Rhoyne. Not sure who you're talking to, but these Tyrion chapters are some of my faves in the book. Then Tyrion is abducted by Jorah, and they have some great, entertaining dynamics. We meet another great character: The Widow of the Waterfront, and get to see Volantis for the first time. It's especially important to have a PoV in Volantis to establish the location in the reader's mind because it's going to play a massive role in WoW in the fight against Dany. Then we get to see what it's like to be captured and sold into slavery, which, again, we haven't seen before, and we also see what a broken man Jorah has become. I mean, sure, we don't get a ton of raw action, but there is just so much worldbuilding that happens in Tyrion's chapters that make them absolutely fascinating. Up until these chapters, the only glimpse we get of Essos is through Dany and the small chunk of it that she travels through. As someone who appreciates worldbuilding, I absolutely love these chapters.
Preston has always disliked Tyrion as a character and his storyline. He is the best character though and his story in ADWD and ACOK is also excellent imho, pretty sure I am not the only one who thinks so. I am happy we will be getting a lot of Tyrion if and when Winds of Winter comes out. For a different perspective google The Mereneese Blot and read the essay on Tyrion which breaks down the arc of the character in depth and also google Poor Quentyn’s eight part essay on Tyrion in ADWD. Alt Shift X also has a nice breakdown of the relevance and awesomeness of the Tyrion storyline in the books. I do appreciate Preston’s insightful discussion of the best Tyrion chapter in ADWD, Tyrion VI.
I believe people find Dance-Tyrion a slog both because of the heavy descriptive elements and how little actually seems to happen in his chapters. But I also think it's because the book reveals just how much Tyrion really is a villain-protagonist instead of the "plucky-survivor-of-family-trauma-disability struggles against villain daddy to rise and become the dragon-riding hero we all need," lacing of tropes. But then I just wrote a lengthy essay on why Tyrion is a villain and I never even bother with his arc in Dance, so ...I have some issues with how Tyrion is most often seen by readers.
Really, a lot of you guys were bored at the Tyrion chapters?! I was always excited to read them when I read ADWD the first time. Not because of Tyrions personal story but because he was always at the most interesting places: First he is with Illyrio who is a mysterious player in the background I was desperate to learn more about. Then he meets the Aegon operation which is again probably the most exciting sceme of ADWD. The travel to Mereen is probably the least interesting part imo but at least in Mereen he is once again at a place where things were heating up
The Widow wants Volantis to support Daenerys. She denies Jorah and Tyrion at first because she mistrusts Jorah, and thinks he is a sellsword out to kill Daenerys. After Penny tries to kill Tyrion, the Widow finds out about the bounty on his head and realizes that Jorah really does intend to help Daenerys; if he was motivated by self-interest, then he would have killed Tyrion himself. She therefore decides to send them along. It's clumsy but maybe it works?
I think GRRM saw what D&D did with Tyrion in the last couple of seasons of GoT and is probably going above and beyond to make sure that doesn’t happen in the books
I got to disagree somewhat. I highly enjoy Tyrion and Illyrio talking in the wagon. I find this highly intriguing. Almost like a small council meeting. Am I my way off?
When Illyrio and Tyrion talk business, it is fascinating, but it’s amazing how little they actually talk compared to everything else in Tyrion I and II
George was way ahead of his time with his militant dedication to the writing strike
😂 If ADWD had come out in 2008 I'd say he's still on strike from the last time.
lmaoooo
Phenomenal comment 😂😂
Guys this was amazing 👏 😂
Yeah you really have to admire the amount of training he’s been putting in for this very moment, he’s like the Michael Phelps of procrastinating
I think Preston has a point actually. It's no secret Tyrion is George's favourite character, largely because of the constant wit and comebacks that fly out of his mouth. But George has to think them up first. So instead of advancing the plot, he's sitting there like a comedian writing their new routine.
He also seems to like world building more than actually writing.
@@theblackswordsman9951yeah I think that’s really the problem more then just Tyrion. He started the story not knowing exactly where it was going to go or end. Then decided to add a bunch of other characters that have there own story’s and are going to matter. Yes the show was great for awhile I think they killed the series. If George actually needed the money from the books he would write them. Rn he wants them to be perfect and there’s no reason to release them and deal with the criticism. I just think that’s messed up to the fans who are the reason he has all this success to not finish the story. Also I think if he accepted it needs to be more then 7 books that would help. I get it 7 kingdoms 7 books but you made ya story to big actually tell the story make the books. It just all would be better if the show wasn’t made till after the books were finished is my point
@@ayourmum8521he definitely needs to drop the 7 book idea, there is absolutely no way to finish the story in two more novels, not with the way George writes.
@ayourmum8521, or we could get a Brotherhood version of the series after, and if he is done
@@ayourmum8521 technically there are NINE realms, so both Winds and Dream can be split in two and still keep the numbers right.
A Game of Thrones: Catelyn needs to go to King's Landing. Next chapter: she's in King's Landing. If George wrote the first book later in life there'd be six Catelyn chapters as she makes her way to KL.
AGoT is just such a tight and efficient book. It covers so much that it would probably be three books if George wrote it today.
@@amysteriousviewer3772 the thing for me is that honestly I wouldn't mind that the thing that's become so frustrating isn't the details and world building it's that he's focusing so intently on it now that we're half way through the story
@@avatarname0008 According to the original outline we are not even halfway actually. Dany‘s invasion is supposed to be the second main story arc while the White Walker threat is the third. We are still stuck in the aftermath of the War of the Five Kings and TWoW will probably end with Dany heading towards Westeros which is the beginning of the second arc which now also needs to cover a bunch of other mostly unrelated plot-lines so unless the third arc is drastically shorter than the others he would probably need 3 additional books to tie it all up properly. The story is simply too broad and convoluted at this point.
@@amysteriousviewer3772 Which is hilarious because even back in the 90s, AGoT ended up being one book growing into three books because of George’s gardening.
@@amysteriousviewer3772 Yeah, it's a shame he became so overly verbose. I mean, I wouldn't even go so far as to say I don't enjoy everything he writes, but he definitely forgot how to properly pace out his stories.
'Tyrion is the key to all of this'
George R.R. Lucas
What is it with George's?
He's a funnier character then we've ever had
@@romulusnuma116 if we can get Tyrion working it'll all come together
Hotpie will be Azor Ahai
@@avatarname0008 George may have gone too far in a few places.
4:15 - "Does this give you some, like... sympathy... for Dave and Da-"
Let me stop you right there, Carmine. No.
I mean D&D do have the point that George promised winds before they would reach season 5. Then season 5 comes and no new book. It hard to adapt a story that the author has yet to commit himself to a storyline for important parts of the book
Yeah there was no reason for that ending to be that bad. You could’ve went to any ASOIAF theory website and printed all the endgame theories put them on a dart board and threw a dart at it and used the one you hit and it would’ve been 100Xs better than what we got. It wasn’t that they wrote a bad script. The script was horrible and they put zero thought or effort into it which makes it worse than bad. They had a chance to go down as two of the greatest show runners of all time and they threw it away for what? Because they were “burned out” or “to do a Star Wars show”. Better to step down and give it to someone else than run your name through the mud. How cocky could you be to not realize what you had with GOT and that no one could replicate that type of success.
@@alexanderguerrero347 I some what agree, but they cut out a lot of usable material. Clearly some stuff had to go, and George clearly was never gonna finish in time, but they cut out entire side plots that could have been compelling, and would have bought them time. Dorne and Young Griff alone could have been seasons of their own.
@@alexanderguerrero347 That's a very poor excuse when you look at how little of ADWD and AFFC is in seasons 5 - 6. It's basically a shadow of a sketch, except not even that. That material is easily 2 - 3 seasons of events even if done sloppily. They basically hit warp speed and then cried about not having material to adapt.
@@alexanderguerrero347
As others have said, they could have done any of the following:
1) Done some research and found some good end-game theories to draw from. There are dozens and dozens of fantastic theories that make a lot of sense, even if they aren't exactly what GRRM will do. Hell, even the fake leaks that came out about season 8 were better than the real season 8.
2) Hire more writers and researchers to do a lot of the work for them (specifically, my #1 point above).
3) Hand the show off to people who actually care. There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of more talented writers and showrunners that HBO has connections with.
I have no sympathy for extreme narcissists who go out of their way to ruin a once in a generation opportunity, then blame someone else.
Hmmm...maybe all of those various threats to cut out Tyrion's tongue represent George's subconscious mind giving him a way out?
Cercie is going to get it cut out anyways. All the lannisters kids lose their best qualities. Jamie’s hand. Cersei’s kids. Tyrions tongue.
@@sparingpickle4918I’m cool with it. Tyrion is not my favorite character. He’s served his purpose and Dave and Dan basically gave us White Washed Tyrion. And that version fails spectacularly. I just see the same for book Tyrion.
I think it is a bit of an overstatement to say Tyrion "tricked" Aegon to go west, not east. Tyrion is being rather nihilistic at this point, going so far as to consider himself an undead "revenant" haunting Westeros, and he is rather pleased to see he has caused yet another facet of conflict to rise up in Westeros (which Cersei and Jaime will have to deal with, both of whom Tyrion despises). This isn't Tyrion actively sabotaging Aegon's cause, he is pleased to have wrought a new problem for Westeros as a whole to deal with.
He's is more chaotic than even Baelish, who causes chaos to advance himself.
He is a man with nothing to lose right now. Like signing all the contracts w Brown Ben and crew….
@@LordOfCedarfell Exactly. Nothing to lose, buying real swords with paper dragons, how Tyrion put it as I recall.
Adding onto this, even if he had a selfish agenda, he had a point. Aegon will look a LOT more formidable and impressive to Dany if she finds him already conquering with the Golden Company, rather than him showing up at Dany's feet, offering a marriage. Dany is already married, and Aegon doesn't have anything definitive to prove who he is. We saw similar problems with Quentyn. This way, he's kind of forcing her to make a move, rather than asking her to make a move.
I think tyrion liked to think he was nihilistic but his brain can't help it. He saw a problem and tried solving it with his cunning .
I kind of agree with Glidus+X that the "five year gap" is over-emphasized in discussions, but it's clear that George was reluctant to commit to any sort of time jump. George was worried that he'd make a long years/months jump and would miss details of Jon's time as LC, Dany's time leading Meereen, Tyrion on his travels, and so many others. He was afraid of the idea of "five years have passed, yet no real major plot points have happened, and now all of my POVs are experiencing significant events." But the other option to him was "describe every little second of all of these characters' lives" and now he's set the pace of the narrative to what it is, which is why so many people think the story can't possibly finish in under nine books.
@@umwha"a generation" generally refers to about 30 years.
@@umwha I think the LN will begin towards the end of TWOW and last most of ADOS, in George's mind. I think ADOS will span upon several years. The title explains the general mindset of humanity during this time, dreaming of spring. But who knows, should the book ever come out, GRMM might just do something entirely different to what he had us expect.
I feel like green dreams are a convenient plot device to experience what is in the past, at this point he can really show anything and hint to it being King Bran
@@umwha Jon obviously can be ressurected months after his death. The Others have no problems ressurecting corpses which are barely more than skeletons. But I think that the longer he stays dead, the least his humanity remains.
The time skip is very important. There is a reason why Bran, Jon, Sansa and the rest are so young. They are meant to age throughout the story, yet without a time skip they barely age. Also after storm most of them are settled, they are learning and consolidating. Nothing interesting happens during that. Sure if you are a skilled writer even boring things can become interesting. But barely anything worthy of a story happens in feast and dance, it's like the years after world war one. There are no major players duking it out. The main bad guys are a priest, catelyns brother in a castle, janos slynt and other nobodys.
I took these Tyrion chapters to be the first steps in his villainy role. He's depressed, miserable, and lots of dark thoughts.
Yeah, I fully expect him to be rather villainous throughout all of Winds and most of Spring. I imagine that he is a force that urges Daenearys to be more brutal and violent and villainous, herself, until he gets redeemed (or never does, but realizes the error of his ways) after Jaime dies.
@@stephengrant4841Jamie ain’t going to die lol 😂 he’s going to go full circle and kill cersie to stop her from burning all of kings landing. Then he’ll end up being knight that fights for Jon along with tyrion.
@@sparingpickle4918 So you think Jon ends up king with Tyrion as Hand and Jamie as kings guard?Is that what you’re saying? I doubt Jon takes the throne, it’s too cliche. Bran will probably be king like how the show ended.
@@stephengrant4841 Naw I think bran be hand and Jon king. I think the series will end with jamie and tyrion both surviving and then selling casterly rock to be done with the Lannister “legacy” for good. I also think cersie is going to cut out tyrions tongue in the next book as well 🤷♂️🤷♂️
Lots of characters threaten to have Tyrion's tongue cut out, and one of them actually should have by the time A Dance With Dragons happened because 1. it would have spared us a lot of dialogue from him we didn't need, advancing the plot. 2, it would have felt poetic for him to lose what defined him and then have to rebuild himself like Jaime losing his sword hand, Cersei losing her beauty, Bran losing his ability to walk and so forth, and 3, it could have shown Tyrion that actions speak louder than words.
It actually makes sense for Tyrion to bring Penny along - sure, she's like him and she is pitiful, and because of his actions (or his family; Cersei) her brother was murdered - but more important... Tyrion is suicidal, he wants to punish others, even the world, but he also feels like he should be punished himself, and here comes someone willing to punish him.
The longer it takes for winds the more jaded Preston becomes. I hope preston still wants to read it by the time it comes out because I don’t want anyone els to explain to me what I read.
Preston's arc isn't to become jaded, his arc is finding out that George isn't lazy, producing something good is way way harder than it seems, and actually we the fandom are just entitled babies with 0 empathy
@@SolarPlayer is this Neil Guyman's sock account?
@@SolarPlayerIm sorry it’s very hard to have empathy for a man who has grown rich off a series that isn’t even finished and has manipulated his fans for over a decade.
George isn't lazy? You're delusional if you think he's going to give us Half-Life 3
@@SolarPlayerFans are not entitled to anything other than honesty. And I'll eat my words if Winds comes out but I don't think he's worked on it since some point between 2017 and 2019.
Martin's behavior is the problem. He wants the adulation and instant acceptance of his other projects so he can do things like play on television sets. But he got stuck and wants to enjoy the time he has left. More power to him. Let him enjoy his wealth. Disappointing but understandable. He needs to level with people though and stop being a petulant jagoff when criticized.
Is that really being entitled?
We are honestly so spoiled to have an articulate guy do so much for this serie we love lol
Right. Preston is a light for this community
lmao it’s good filler
...and then there's this obnoxious carmine.
@@alanmorton5303 Preston is the GOAT in asoiaf, but Redteam is pretty awesome too
Tyrion’s chapters in ADWD were hard to get through on my first read. Later I appreciated them because they were world-buildy and they contained lots of Easter eggs important for other storylines. Ultimately though, not a lot actually HAPPENS in Tyrion’s chapters in
ADWD.
Yeah but thats kind of the point Tyrion did something traumatic and can't function like he did. Tyrion most of his life was a pawn by his Father, to some extent by Jaime, and then he realized that and now Varys is using him as a pawn. Tyrion doesn't want to be a pawn anymore.
I just finished ADWD and the Tyrion chapters captivated me just because I loved the deviation of Tyrion’s persona from GoT at the end of Storm of Swords. Now having finished the book and looking back I realize Tyrion chapters are the ones I remember the least about. Also I was listening via audiobook so all of the chapters passed the same timewise whether I was interested in them or not, maybe that had something to do with why I didn’t find Tyrion chapters dragging lol idk
Nonsense! Tyrion and Jorah's high-stakes tiara-shopping in Volantis is the best part of the entire series! Its surpassed only by that riveting part of Tyrion II where he's looking at dung on the Valyrian road...
Lol I made the mistake of reading part of Tyrion in ADwD back-to-back with Daenerys III AGoT. Dany travels more in a paragraph than Tyrion does in several chapters.
😂
Giving Duck and Haldon extended backstory makes sense when you consider what Aegon is, but the execution could have been better. Aegon and the Aegon Cause is meant to be people rising up from poor conditions or unfortunate circumstances to become something in the world. Total nothings who would otherwise be forgotten carving their own way in the world, albeit with fire and steel.
Rolly Duckfield was a blacksmith's son without a surname who beat up his Lord's son that was stealing from him and ran to escape death. A poor kid who just wanted to have the sword his dad made him was sentenced to death for attacking a upperclassman's kid.
Haldon is a very good teacher and advisor but he didn't get promoted to Maester and quit. Was it because he just wasn't good at one or two particular subjects? Politics in the Citadel, maybe? It happens in workplaces all of the time in real life.
Septa Lemore was pregnant once and is now in service to the Faith. Did she lose the baby? Was it out of wedlock? Did the father die?
JonCon was stripped of his home and got exiled because he didn't win a battle and now suffers PTSD from the event.
Aegon himself was raised among fishermen and had to work to survive. If he's even a real Targaryen/Blackfyre, he still had a rough upbringing that was designed to teach him how the lower class suffers and needs support from the upper class and politicians.
And the Golden Company itself, Aegon's private army, is made up of the children of exiles who fought for the losing side in a civil war that started because a fat loser couldn't make it clear who his preferred heir was. Thousands and thousands of people who quite literally fight to survive are trying to return to their ancestral homeland and settle down.
If it would have been handled a bit better, it might have been more obvious that the Aegon Cause is trying to paint itself as the altruistic cause where anyone can rise to the top and have their own future. Hell, Rolly Duckfield went from being a smith's son to being the Lord Commander of someone's King's Guard. If he can do that, anyone can do anything if they try hard enough and have the support system behind them.
Tyrion in aDWD is really cool the second time but I remember how when his story finally got super interesting with Aegon and Jon he just separates from them and gets kidnapped by freaking Jorah, I felt that as a personal attack.
I kinda of disagree with the statement that nothing happens on Tyrion chapters because we are introduced to young Griff and Tyrion makes his invasion start. Besides o really loved the world building and his dealing with the trauma he had just lived
Agreed Jon and dany are the ones who need way less chapters either have the dragons go west and have the aliens invade or dont
@@avatarname0008 Jon chapters are pretty essential imo. Nothing in any of them progresses Jon’s story itself that much, but it is a fantastic creep of unease leading to Jon’s death and each individual chapter always progresses a story of a relevant side character at the very least.
The main thing I disliked about Dany chapters is the amount of time spent developing Ghiscari characters in Meereen who I can’t imagine being at all relevant in the coming climax of the story. At least the characters that get developed through Jon’s dance chapters like Melisandre, Mance, Stannis, Tormund, the night’s watch etc are at the wall where shit is going down and no doubt influence the main plot which is the coming of the long night. Unfortunately I can’t see Reznak mo Reznak / Hizdahr zo Loraq / Skahaz zo whatever tf being important. Honestly the only meaningful thing that happens in Dany dance chapter is in X when she’s having fever dreams that tell her the Meereen plotline isn’t important 😂
I agree..i think the main thing that happens is we see the transformation happening in Tyrion and the darkness brewing in him. NOW, if Tyrion goes back to being exactly the same as he was in acok i will agree all that character development that happened in adwd and began in asos was all for naught...but if in twow we see a brand new Tyrion, an "evil" tyrion, well anyone who wasn't paying attention may be surprised but for those who read carefully they will be rewarded for it. I mean the Tyrion chapters do feel a bit bloated tho ngl. But i wouldn't say "nothing" happened..it justice could've been told in a few fewer chapters. But i think preston is missing the point. Its character development, that's not nothing.
I like them too but there at least 50% too many pages devoted to him in Dance imo
Here's my hot take if you're going to have Tyrion not appear for an entire book that would probably be the time to have him crossing an entire continent where nothing much happens to him ... George couldve made that timeline work ... plus a suprise reveal of Tyrion in the East somewhere wouldve been fun
If I recall correctly, almost every Storm of Swords Tyrion chapter had already been written when Game of Thrones was published. Tyrion was George's narrative zipline.
That is WILD if true. So much for gardening.
@@Conorp77”gardening” is why AFFC and ADWD took so long and why we’ll never get winds. It’s a pretentious, self-masturbatory idea he clearly picked up in the 2000s.
I actually enjoyed all of the Tyrion chapters in Dance, and I liked the Volantis chapter a lot. I liked how it set up the future involvement in the Dany storyline and I enjoy seeing Jorah brought down a peg by the widow. I love the Shy Maid chapters and the one where Tyrion joins the second sons. He is in a very dark place in this book and it sets up his role in the end game, I wonder if given a choice would he join Dany, Aegon or will he do what he can to destroy his siblings and Kings Landing, not caring whether Dany or Aegon come out on top at the end of it all.
Totally agree! Really entier the chapters.
Tyrion chapters sets up the slaves of pentos being ready to revolt. And the followers of the Red God. And all of the stuff with FAegon. I think its good set up.
I always felt that George set himself up for a lot of trouble down the line with his PoV structure. The reality of the matter is that there will be times in a story where a lot is going on in one PoV while there is almost nothing going on in another. Other authors could simply skip over that time by staying with an eventful PoV for longer but due to the fact that George always switches PoVs every chapter and has his set of "main PoV" characters he basically always has to create filler plot-lines to bridge that uneventful time which often results in superfluous chapters.
There’s no law that says we have to have the same POV characters every book. Some could sit out a book or two.
23:45 - Maybe Duck was originally going to take Mormont's role? I don't mean kidnapping Tyrion, necessarily. But I mean in the sense that maybe him and Tyrion were going to be forced to go on a solo journey somehow. Like they get separated from Griff and Young Griff somehow? It could make sense. And then Martin eventually decided it'd be better to give that role to Jorah.
Like maybe Tyrion and Duck would have been Aegon's envoys to Dany?
I for one enjoy all the drawn out descriptions in Tyrions chapters. I feel like I got a tour of more of Essos. I felt the same longing to see the world like Lomas Longstrider that Tyrion expressed in the earlier books, and that fullfilled that. I did notice in Winds though that a ton of the 'action' takes place in the characters heads as they ruminate. All the mantras come out as well. "Wherever whores go" "Shes fucking lancel..etc" That sort of thing is impossible to adapt to the screen, so no wonder Dave and Dan scrapped it all.
Those mantras are also getting really old at this point in my opinion especially because I doubt many of them will even have any plot or character relevance. George, we get it. We don't need characters thinking the same damn phrase all the time.
@@amysteriousviewer3772 i wonder what sort of mantras george tortures himself with. I wonder if someone once threw in his face that Lisa Tuttle was fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy or something
@@amysteriousviewer3772they already have character relevance, and why wouldn't they eventually have further plot relevance? But yes, they can get repetitive. Like my favorite character, Davos "I lost my luck when I lost my fingers" Seaworth.
@EricsHobbyWorkshop I also thoroughly enjoyed Tyrion's tour of Essos. It reminded me of Frodo trekking across Middle Earth... If Frodo were jaded, crude, and hateful.
I’ve always felt that the first few chapters of Tyrion in Winds is somewhat self-explanatory. The Westerosi characters that headed to Meereen (Tyrion, Quentin, Vic, Jorah) were all there to see Dany. But now Dany is gone and the city is in chaos. This was because Dany and her court were uniquely unequipped to deal with the Harpy and Meereenese politics through lack of political guile, the inability to take risks and lack of outright brutality (and therein the lack of follow through.)
Tyrion would be an excellent POV to actually figure out who the Harpy is. Uncovering the Green Grace conspiracy is something that Barristan was wholly unable to do, but having a real political maneuverer in Meereen is exactly what Dany needs. His time as Hand could be played upon heavily here. It’s exactly what he needs as a character.
Quentin would be an excellent husband for Dany. Preston has set him up to be a dragon rider. He is clearly motivated by a desire to ride dragons, to do the bidding of his father, and to marry Dany. And there is no way she would be attracted to him considering he’s a charred mess. Also they’re both infertile.
Vic becoming Dany’s Master of Ships was set up with the death of Grolio. He’s kind of the wild card in terms of loyalty, but if Dany was to take both him and Quentin as husbands it wouldn’t matter and would also be a cool Aegon reversal. Securing both the Iron Islands and Dorne (the two historically most unruly kingdoms) would give the Feast chapters so much newfound relevance. Vic could continue to have his salt wives but obviously his lust for The Dragon Queen could be used to set up further conflict.
Either way, I think George was trying to set up Dany’s new, smarter, faster, stronger and yes, crueler court. Imagine Dany returning to Meereen and having the Green Grace’s head presented to her and the Harpies strung up. Out with the old, in with the new.
Also to clarify:
Vic and Quentin wouldn’t be as perfect of a fit as I maybe outlined here. They’d definitely cause problems within the cause. Them dying down the line is not out of the question and is probably certain at this point.
It’s Tyrion who would be used as a contrast, kind of more stable and even keel ruler. His desire to be the smartest man in the room would eventually trump his desire for blind revenge. He’d also probably fall in love with Dany because of course he would lmfao
ASOIAF is not a plot driven story but a character driven one. Tyrion has always been my most favorite chapters to read. I'm not overly obsessed with plot moving forward as much as I am invested in the characters themselves. Most fans just seem obsessed with Dany and white walkers getting to Westeros. Maybe it's just me but I find other plot points more interesting.
Characters on their own are nothing. This isn't a sitcom. This is also why there is no new book.
"ASOIAF is not plot driven" might just be one of the most insane statement I've ever read tbh
@@jamesmaxwell1940 Characters move the plot with their decisions and not the other way around. Hope this helps.
@@americansoccerunited That describes literally every fictional piece of media, even in something like The Sopranos (IMO one of the most character driven shows of all time), the characters move the plot with their decisions.
@@americansoccerunited How does "the other way around" even make sense? The plot moves the characters through... the plot's decisions? What?
The ASoIaF fandom is steadily changing from a fantasy book fandom into a support group for disappointed people so far gone that they've even given up on hiatus brain.
I don't think this is qualitatively different from the slow pace of Feast. You can do this plot synopsis where you show how very little is happening story wise, but you gloss over what is happening with the characters and their environment. We follow Brienne and pretty much every village she passes along her journey, talking about their histories and how the war has affected those places.
Agree with Preston about Tyrion being clever to the point where it becomes annoying in his chapters and understanding d&d struggling to write dialogue for him. However, watching seasons 6, 7 and 8 I'm convinced they didn't even try hard.
Lol remember when they just started reusing old clever lines that had been said previously? "Give me x good men and I'll Impregnate the bitch" or something like that he said it in the last season and Bronn said it seasons earlier
@@nordette exactly, or quotes like s8 varys-" when a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin ..."like we haven't heard that one before. They literally recycled and phoned it in.
@@nordette Yeah, there's one time Tyrion quotes an old season 1 line, but when you look back it was something Littlefinger said to Ned in a closed room with no one else there...
I think one of the problems is that somewhere between Storm and Feast GRRM developed a massive love of cliffhangers, and as a result, every tiny plot development now gets a full chapter of built-up and then the cliffhanger. Reading the first three books it's kinda shocking how much could happen in a single chapter back then!
The way he said "last time on ice and fire" This man definitely watched Dragon Ball Z on toonami
I think there multiple reasons working together.
1. Tyrion, as explained here
2. The Battle of Fire has to many POVs just like the Mereenese knot
3. The only POV at the wall is Melisandre and showing magic from the eyes of a experienced sorceress is less mysterious. So he might want other POVs for the resurrection
on point 3, one could use Melisandre's POV of the resurrection to communicate that even the mysterious and powerful witch doesnt actually understand what she's doing and is just performing rituals by rote that she was taught.
Dolorous Edd would be a really fun POV for that if Jon didn't send him to some random castle. Though Edd has nearly as many zingers as Tyrion does so that might be difficult to write.
I do think that the point of these chapters is to show that tyrion is turning into exactly what everyone had been accusing him of. Kind of interesting and gives us a chance to notice details of set pieces that have not had a pov character in a long time. So not exactly plot necessary, but seems like the tyrion character arc needed this
I think you kind of answered your own question on why they would spend a lot of time of Ser Rolls Duckfield. He IS an important character. He's the first of Aegon's KG and is about to help him take Storm's End. The fact that his nickname makes him and his king "Duck and Egg" is also a pretty clear sign he's destined for greater things imo.
If any character is giving him trouble, it's Bran.
3 Bran chapters since 2000. 3 Bran chapters in 23 years.
I know I'm off topic, but I always really liked how the opening line for Quentyn's first chapter was, "Adventure stank." I feel like that says so much and has a lot of depth to it. The very things that we all dream of, our greatest desires, our own fabled quest for glory, smells of shit and piss, death and unimaginable suffering. It's a fantasy held up by the scourged backs of the enslaved and downtrodden. A rude awakening to reality.
I read a theory years ago that Penny was written as a similar warning to fans who wished they could live in Westeros. She seems out of place in that world because she has (on purpose) 21st century Western values, sensibilities and expectations about how the world works. Thrown in the crapsack world of Westeros... It's not pretty.
@@kragarywho thinks Westeros is a fantastical place? Seems exactly what it is, a place where everyone from the lowest of lows and the highest of highs would stab you in the back to climb one higher rung. Can’t even trust your immediate family.
Was rewatching your purple wedding video and had a thought, what if Tywin helped in joffrey’s murder? He explicitly states his disdain for Joffrey and how uncontrollable he was, and I know you don’t like to use the show as reference but we get a lot more indicatives in it including a “I will deal with him” right before the wedding, and starting to groom tommen right after joffrey’s death. It also seems strange that he seemed to actually believe Tyrion was the culprit, he knew the whole trial was a sham and it’s hard for me to believe he’d think tyrion would just murder the king and then stand there pleading himself innocent, he knew him better than that, even if he was suspicious I doubt he’d just stand there and not go after other possible suspects. The murder falls right into his hands, get a king he can control and get rid of tyrion, not to mention it would explain littlefinger’s involvement since he was the bridge between tywin and the tyrells, olenna voiced her concerns about Joffrey, tywin or baelish hatched the plan and the latter took care of arranging the whole thing in exchange for Sansa.
The death of a Lannister King, especailly a public murder, even if you have a spare, is a massively humiliating and disempowering thing for house Lannister.
On a reread i thought a suspect could be oberyn, he talled to tyrion in the prison cells about the death of joffrey and he probably poisoned tywin
The joke is there are multiple plots to kill Tyrion and he oblivious to them, but survives anyway accidentally killing his enemy. Think Clouseau in Pink Panther or Mr. Magoo.
I agree Joff’s death was convenient for Tywin, as Tywin didn’t want another Robert 2.0, he wanted someone he could control. I think Tywin knew Tyrion didn’t do it, but he turned a blind eye as it was convenient to get rid of him.
Although I don’t think he murdered Joffrey because publicly killing the king at his own wedding would shame House Lannister
@@nicke-ow5yd
I remember a lot of speculation from show fans in season 4 about whether Tywin was complicit in the assassination plot.
He seemed remarkably ready to accept the story that Tyrion was guilty.
This is more plausible if he actually knew about the Tyrell plot but decided it would be more convenient to allow it to proceed and then blame Tyrion for the murder.
Of course after Tywin himself was killed these speculations became moot.
I always though Tyrion had the most music in his POV. Tyrion, Jaime, Davos are the easily the most poetic, also Brienne.
Maybe all the focus on Duck could be a way to show how important he is to someone else? So like his importance to Faegon? Or maybe it's just seeding for something that he plans to happen later.
...I guess a lot of the Tyrion ADwD could pay off in TWoW? If Tyrion and Dany retrace Tyrion's steps? Revisit and reinterpret the ruins of the Rhoyne and Andalos in the context of dragons (maybe find the House with the Red Door?) I think this line (among others) certainly sets up Daenerys' attack of Volantis:
"If I were khal, I would feint at Selhorys, let the Volantenes rush to defend it, then swing south and ride hard for Volantis itself." (Tyrion VI ADwD)
that was Theons EXACT strategy that he took Winterfell with.
Tyrion's ADWD story could have really benefitted from some of that breakneck AGOT pacing. Keep in mind that Dany travels from Pentos to the Dothraki Sea off-screen between two chapters. No 10 chapter travelogue describing every hill and village they came across along the way. Tyrion in ADWD kind of feel like George wasn't completely sure what do with him. He knew Tyrion needed to end up with Dany and he knew that he would spend some time with Aegon and JonCon but everything else feels pretty arbitrary and like it could have been swapped out for any other set of circumstances. I think maybe George was trying to go for the same vibe Tyrion had in AGOT where he travels through half of Westeros and gets involved in all sorts of shenanigans, but the difference is that in that book all the things that happened to Tyrion (going to the Wall, getting captured by Cat, his trial at the Eyrie, fighting on the Trident) were actually relevant to the other stories being told. Being captured by Cat and being tried by Lysa actually had a profound impact on all of Westeros (as it basically set off the Wot5K) as compared to being captured by random slavers and being sold to a random Yunkish nobleman. I get that in a way Tyrion's story is kind of supposed to feel like a drag because that's kind of the headspace he's in after killing his father, but it still feels like George wasn't entirely sure how to resolve this inner conflict. Tyrion at the end deciding that he wants to live after all comes pretty out nowhere and doesn't feel like something that came as a result of what the character actually experienced. Maybe we'll get some better Tyrion in Winds again but with Dance Tyrion really just became a way for George to shove in a bunch of mostly unnecessary worldbuilding.
This is exactly why you outline a story, especially one that comprises multiple books
I thought the advice he gave to Aegon was smart and that was shown through Quentin who had nothing to offer to Deanerys just like Aegon wouldn't.
It may be in the end, but Tyrion later thinks of it as a trick.
Is it because George is having trouble reconciling "I drink and I know things" with book Tyrion?
Tyrion XXVI TWoW: The Valyrian road was lightly flecked in snow, shimmering beneath the stars. Straight and flat it was, raised half a foot above the frozen earth. Four hundred years this has been here, at least, Tyrion thought. Through summer and winter, spring and autumn. War and flood and famine, and not a bit of it has left its mark. To the west the road was a bluish silver river like the flight of some great arrow, fearlessly driving towards the horizon and further on, to the stormswept sea and the lands beyond.
Would that it were an arrow, he thought as he picked at the ice that clung to the smooth stone. He imagined loosing it, straight and true, launching it across the narrow sea. King's Landing was due west of here, he judged, or near enough to make no matter. He recalled the comet that had streaked the sky, as Joffrey ascended his throne. How sweet it would have been, if that comet had come down on them like an arrow, to crash into the Red Keep and reduce all who dwelt there to ashes. Joffrey would have looked oh so comely with his hair burnt away, his every bone shattered and his youthful skin black and blue and green beneath the burns. And my sweet sister...
But it was no good. All the giants were dead and gone, he'd read, so not a man alive could heft an arrow as wide as the road before him, and not even the strongest of that lost people could have sent it hurling across the sea. Even the Sarnori, the tall men who'd conquered these plains when the world was young and plied the finest bows in the world a thousand years before the first dothraki khalasar would not have been equal to the task.
His fingers were properly chilled by then, and he'd cleared the flakes on snow from no more than a handspan and the smooth stone. Dawn must surely come soon, he thought, shifting his weight uncomfortably. One of his legs began to cramp, so he shifted his stance to stretch it out, and buried his icy fingers in his armpit. He glanced east and saw the faintest hint of blush in the silver of the road. Dawn, perhaps, come to unfurl itself in golden glory, with shining banners of magenta and vermilion and cerulean. Or... he watched the light brighten on the edge of the road east. There was slight reddish tinge to it, a molten quality that spoke of savage fires from within the earth. Our queen returns. He grinned. No man could hurl a missile across the narrow sea, not even a giant. But there were other things, things more wonderful and terrible, that could do even better.
Then it continues on for several pages; Tyrion starts picking at the ice on the road with the other hand, then that gets too cold so he switches back. His other leg starts to cramp, so he stretches it. He imagines that the little flecks of ice on the road are Cersei and Jaime and everyone who ever laughed at him, and crushes them and melts them and imagines Cersei's bright green eyes popping as she screams and burns. Then he has to relieve his bladder so he finds a likely clump of bushes, then it starts to snow again so all his hard work boredly doodling with the road is undone. Then Dany finally shows up and she's like "hey Tyrion, I was scouting our rear and the Qartheen camels are closing in! I wanna give them fire and blood!" And Tyrion lists all the obscure historiography he knows about how dragons were used in combat against camels.
...though I dunno, if GRRM wrote that, I would still devour it and reread it so many times and try to work out all sorts of epic themes and parallels to the other plotlines. GRRM is such an amazing writer.
I remember at one point looking Duck up on the wiki and being flabbergasted that there was quite a bit there about his backstory. I was like "wait what? when did that happen???" I completely forgot he explained his life's story. Completely fled my memory. We don't get anything on Lemore or Haldon, oh no they're left as mystery boxes. Really crucial to establish what's up with the forgettable one.
George is a procrastinating hack fraud 😂😂
I don’t even read the books but I love watching these 2 talk about them
ever since I heard George giving his "gardener" spiel, I knew he has no fucking clue what he is doing with these books
Hes so pretentious about it too. I also hate his "what was aragorn's tax policy" question as tho he thinks hes so clever for poking holes in someone else's story. Hey george, maybe Tolkien purposefully ignored medieval accounting practices in his sprawling fantasy epic because its not that interesting? Like, did you ever think of that? Maybe we just want a solid story arc and no one cares about the nitty gritties of what constitutes "happily ever after." I mean at least Tolkien had enough focus to finish his story, meanwhile i feel like we know everything about Westeros except what anyone actually cares about...
@@theCarbonFreeze
Impressive that Tolkien managed to finish his story in under 20 years despite his day job and WW2.
@@theCarbonFreeze speaking of LOTR I am convinced George never ever read it or watched the movies for that matter. He keeps saying it has a black and white ending and his would be more bittersweet but what the fuck is more bittersweet than Frodo leaving for Aman, huh žeorže? smelly old asshat
I might be in the minority here, but I loved the Tyrion chapters in Dance. It really has a classic adventure novel feel, similar to the Hobbit if Bilbo was completely deranged
I honestly skip all the Tyrion/Dany chapters and everything Essos on every reread of every book after ASoS and I don’t feel like I’m missing out on ANYTHING.
Old George would have had Tyrion in Mereen by Tyrion 3, latest Tyrion 4. If George wrote Game of Thrones now, it would end with Ned just arriving in King’s Landing.
Imagine if they take Tyrion out of the crate and hes already in Mereen! lmao. Strong Belwas holding a crowbar, Ser Barristan panicking, Dany being confused.
Lol! But in the book he wasn't in a crate, he was in a normal cabin and then smuggled to Illyrio's place in a barrel.
@@kragary I dont really see a reason not to use "crate" and "barrel" interchangeably lol. They still put him in a tiny wooden container to unload him infront of Illyrio, same thing could have happened in Mereen.
I don't think the Jorah in the same brothel thing is that ridiculous. They are both foreigners from Westeros, both from aristocratic backgrounds, and both the kind of men who would be in a brothel. In a medieval type world no cities are the size of New York or Tokyo. London had the population of a small city, 80k, in 1300. There's a good chance men in their circumstance would wind up in the same establishment if they were in the same city.
But why were they even in the same city? Why was Jorah in Selhorys?
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin havent you heard? thats where they Sel the best horys ;)
The scenery porn description kind of reminds me of the first Star Trek movie. A lot of big special effects shots that slowed the pace.
People really hated that movie when it first came out but I think its slow pace is rather appropriate.
It was a rather reflective personal sort of story about friendship and the search for meaning and the pace suited it though nowadays it would be a miniseries.
I wouldn't call slaves "sex workers", that just legitimises Tyrions behaviour and pretends as if these women wanted to be in this position
Yeah but who wants to work period?
congratulations, youve discovered why the term "sex worker" is in and of itself nonsensical.
In Georges defence of Tyrion 1. GRRM had to do a lot of summarizing because the last Tyrion POV was two books a go, and released over a decade apart .
The significance of the mushrooms was that Trion was considering killing himself up until that point. then he decided he wanted to live and gave them to Nurse
Its not nothing if people enjoy reading tyrion's chapters. Feels a bit redundant to say all those clever prose and lines are a waste of time just because it doesn't enhances the plot forward.
His viewpoint showed essos and introduced and developed other characters too
It kind of is if you have George unwillingness to cut unimportant filler and lore that just bloat the story to ridiculous proportions and not even finish it. Prose is well and good BUT at some point you have to show restraint and actually advance the plot.
its almost like grrm knew how fucked he was pre-ADWD.
Isn't Tyrion the most like George so logically it would be the easiest to write. I would think Bran would be harder as he said in the past
I think he gets carried away with Tyrion too easily. He loves the character and dedicates a lot of chapters to him. As Tyrion always has to have a clever line, he Is rewriting it over and over again, returning to it every time he thinks od something new. He does not have a problem with Tyrion like other characters, but you must stop with rewriting at some point to make a progress.
In other words, Preston's definition of Tyrion VII: golden toilet that doesn't flush
I'll never forget that old but gold metaphor of his lmao
Tyrion is sooo annoying in Dance omg
Knowing now that he's 18% of the book makes me understand why it's my least favourite in the series (which hits even harder since Feast is my favourite)
Tyrion has some great moments but most of his chapters are such a snooze fest
I like world building in general but did we really need all those chapters on the Shy Maid?
Definitely not.
This might be a hot take but I don't think the stories of feast and dance are worth telling, for the most part. Just like it wasn't worth telling the story of how littlefinger, jon arryn and others schemed in the years before game of thrones. Or daenerys and viserys were constantly moving escaping roberts assassins before khal drogo accepted a marriage. Or mance raider convincing the wildlings to fight for him. It's interesting sure, but it can be explained in a few sentences, or implied by a larger narrative.
The first three books are masterpieces, great combinations of great settings and great writing. Just consider Robb's story in the first three books. A boy of 15 forces to take on a role he is not ready for yet when his father is imprisoned far away. He calls all of his fathers subjects. An intimidating and uncertain future lies ahead. Yet when he first faces a battle he proves to be an excellent strategist and suddenly there is hope for his family and his father. His father is executed and his bannermen proclaims him king. The war continues, he wins many battles but eventually he is betrayed by his allies and is slain during his uncles wedding.
This is a great story no matter what universe it is set in, because of the initial tension, the stakes and the unsuspecting conclusion. There is no such story that would be easily told at the moment in a song of ice and fire. The story is slow and it is obviously impossible to describe the entire build up to the next war. It involves so many characters and so many details and plot points. Unfortunately that is what GRRM is doing and I think that is the reason why he can't finish the series.
I have said for years now that a time skip is required. I said it even before GRRM told us that he originally planned a time skip. The problem is that there is no tension in the world between MAJOR players. Just consider how game of thrones started:
- Jon Arryn is dead and Ned is going to be the next hand of the king
- Daenerys has married Khal Drogo
- The white walkers starts attacking the rangers of the north
- Wildlings have united around one person, their new king mance raider
Immediately there is plenty of tension between important people and families. Stark vs Lannister. Lannister and Arryn. Baratheon and Lannister. Targaryen and Baratheon. Wildlings and Starks. As mentioned the series is very slow paced so it is very important that the state of the world is at the tipping point for the story to be as engaging as possible. It is also much easier to write. The setting was so genius and interesting in fact that GRRM wrote the first three books in record pace, around 2 years each if I don't misremember. For such big books it is really impressive.
That tension is what I wanted for the sequel of storm. Jon, Arya, Sam, Bran and others have all been training for 5 years in their respective fields. They are older, more experienced and wiser. Arya can use her faceless skills without needing to explain how. Jon is a better leader and better fighter and he has accomplished a lot. Stannis has consolidated power in the northern part of the north. The stakes across the world should be high, war should be imminent but not too imminent as we need a build up in the books. Wherever GRRM wants to go but finds it difficult to do just jump there in time. You don't need to explain everything in dreams or recollections, let some details be mysterious for a time. What Dorne has done, young griff etc.
Only a third way through so this is subject to change, but I disagree overall with the sentiment of the vid. I love the ADWD Tyrion chapters, and I don’t mind GRRM moseying around in prose and exposition. All the while, Aegon is introduced, we learn Illyrio and Varys game, Jorah is introduced back into the story, we see slavers bay on the other side of mereen walls, and we’re about to converge with Victorian, Barristan, and Dany. I love it
Tyrion chapters are amazing truly, but he is easily the PoV I care about the less or maybe the one I enjoy less, and this has been ever since I read the books 12 years ago and happens every time I read them again.
Good luck with the fanfic, you can always go the Bran aDwD and Dany aCoK having very few chapters, or kill him lol.
This is the first time I've seen your face on video Preston, don't know what I was expecting but still slightly surreal.
For Tyrion VII: The widow on the waterfront is testing Tyrion and Jorah as she doesn’t trust them at first. There are likely a lot of people in Volantis who want her dead.
The altercation with Penny and the reaction Jorah and Tyrion have to her is very revealing of their characters. The widow realizes that Jorah’s dedication to Dany and Tyrion’s understanding of her cause are beneficial. So she helps them in the hope they help Dany make it to Volantis.
Just my two cents.
Tyrion’s story is spelled out in the cyvass game with Aegon. He will convince Daenerys to not rule with fire and blood (keep her dragon away), but this will lead to her not being accepted as queen (Aegon losing the game), she burns down Westeros (Aegon flips the board), and Tyrion is left picking up the pieces of the game he started, probably regretfully.
If an artist chooses to share their art, that’s very nice of them. If they don’t, that’s their business.
First rule of writing that wealthy writers forget: "kill your babies" aka if you like something you wrote a lot make sure to cut it down because otherwise it's too long. Unfortunately good editing is inversely related to success.
Yep.
You can see the same thing happening with JK Rowling in the Potter series, though she has more excuse as a much less experienced writer.
I’m new to watching Preston’s videos, but I get the impression that he just really really hates the asoiaf books
Hasn't george stated that he's already finished writing tyrion in Winds tho?
I love how it's the characters fault, not the author 😂😂
The character has manifested into a real person
@@avatarname0008
Exactly.
GRRM believes he has to do justice to his character.
Yeah I think the reason George is having trouble progressing is largely because a few POVs with very complex situations or that need intricate setup. Tyrion and Jaime need witty situations and thoughts for instance which isn't easy to come up with. I sometimes think the 5 year gap thing though it was clearly abandoned pretty early on; probably would have been good for the plot overall. I'd have gladly traded the suspension of my disbelief that things slowed down for a few years for a more streamlined plot. But I think that George didn't want to miss exploring details of John learning to be LC, Sansa becoming politically adept, etc. But instead now everything feels quite rushed. I wxpect if George finishes it in the next 2 books some plot threads will be abandoned. And honestly? That's just fine by me.
People who love Tyrion 3 Dance.
"Are youd Duck pilled? Are you Duck billed? Are you Duck built?!?!. Uhhh I think so!"
I've lost my mind.
I read GRMM's books specifically for the eloquently written "useless trash" lol
This does make you appreciate Tolkiens economy of words. Essentially, completing three tales in fives books and an incredibly detailed world from flowers to titans
If Tyrion meandering in this book is rough, Preston would HATE a Wheel of Time
I liked tyrion 7 but I am a sucker for the world building. The city came to life in my imagination so good work on grrm for his descriptions but I can see the point Preston is making.
Intro-Duck-tion
I thought the idea was Duck was going to be the Duck to JonCon's Aeg...Dunk & Egg Mark 2...so giving hin an intro made sense
I like this take reading it it felt like tyrions arch was just strange in a unexplainable way
So many strange takes in this video that I really don't agree with, specifically the takes about Tyrion's chapters not containing much. Yeah, Tyrion 1 is long, but it's a recap, which you acknowledge. It's also supposed to demonstrate his drastic personality shift from Storm of Swords: He's so much more nihilistic and just straight up EVIL. Obviously the events of ASoS have had a major impact on him, and in order for us to see that we need a lot of page time. We also haven't spent any time with Illyrio since book 1, so I think the time spent with him is very interesting.
Then we meet Duck and Haldon, and spend a lot of time on Duck's back-story, which you object to and compare him to Jory. Again, I have a lot of issues with this comparison. The purpose of Jory's arc is to establish an extremely loyal, trustworthy companion to Ned, and to then kill him off as the first major casualty of the conflict. This moment is the first shocking death of the story, and shows us that shit is getting real VERY fast. On the other hand, Duck is very much alive and could still absolutely play a massive role in the coming story as fAegon's most trusted soldier/kingsguard. Just because he hasn't shown up much so far doesn't mean he won't in the future. If he was killed in Dance then yeah, I'd agree with you, but it's just way too early to say that he doesn't have a large enough role to warrant the large amount of backstory that we get. If anything, I'd say it indicates that he's going to be quite important in Winds.
Then, on the Shy Maid, SO much exposition happens: we're introduced two new, massively consequential characters: fAegon and Jon Con, plus Septa Lemore whose true identity remains a mystery. There's also a lot of great worldbuilding: we get some insight as to what sort of education is given to a would-be ruler, and learn a ton about Volantis and the Rhoyne. Not sure who you're talking to, but these Tyrion chapters are some of my faves in the book.
Then Tyrion is abducted by Jorah, and they have some great, entertaining dynamics. We meet another great character: The Widow of the Waterfront, and get to see Volantis for the first time. It's especially important to have a PoV in Volantis to establish the location in the reader's mind because it's going to play a massive role in WoW in the fight against Dany.
Then we get to see what it's like to be captured and sold into slavery, which, again, we haven't seen before, and we also see what a broken man Jorah has become.
I mean, sure, we don't get a ton of raw action, but there is just so much worldbuilding that happens in Tyrion's chapters that make them absolutely fascinating. Up until these chapters, the only glimpse we get of Essos is through Dany and the small chunk of it that she travels through. As someone who appreciates worldbuilding, I absolutely love these chapters.
Preston has always disliked Tyrion as a character and his storyline. He is the best character though and his story in ADWD and ACOK is also excellent imho, pretty sure I am not the only one who thinks so. I am happy we will be getting a lot of Tyrion if and when Winds of Winter comes out. For a different perspective google The Mereneese Blot and read the essay on Tyrion which breaks down the arc of the character in depth and also google Poor Quentyn’s eight part essay on Tyrion in ADWD. Alt Shift X also has a nice breakdown of the relevance and awesomeness of the Tyrion storyline in the books. I do appreciate Preston’s insightful discussion of the best Tyrion chapter in ADWD, Tyrion VI.
I believe people find Dance-Tyrion a slog both because of the heavy descriptive elements and how little actually seems to happen in his chapters. But I also think it's because the book reveals just how much Tyrion really is a villain-protagonist instead of the "plucky-survivor-of-family-trauma-disability struggles against villain daddy to rise and become the dragon-riding hero we all need," lacing of tropes.
But then I just wrote a lengthy essay on why Tyrion is a villain and I never even bother with his arc in Dance, so ...I have some issues with how Tyrion is most often seen by readers.
Really, a lot of you guys were bored at the Tyrion chapters?!
I was always excited to read them when I read ADWD the first time. Not because of Tyrions personal story but because he was always at the most interesting places:
First he is with Illyrio who is a mysterious player in the background I was desperate to learn more about. Then he meets the Aegon operation which is again probably the most exciting sceme of ADWD.
The travel to Mereen is probably the least interesting part imo but at least in Mereen he is once again at a place where things were heating up
The Widow wants Volantis to support Daenerys. She denies Jorah and Tyrion at first because she mistrusts Jorah, and thinks he is a sellsword out to kill Daenerys. After Penny tries to kill Tyrion, the Widow finds out about the bounty on his head and realizes that Jorah really does intend to help Daenerys; if he was motivated by self-interest, then he would have killed Tyrion himself. She therefore decides to send them along. It's clumsy but maybe it works?
It’s really wild that the process of writing a book would actually *diminish* Preston’s understanding of what the point of a novel is.
these kinds of ideas for videos is what makes your channel interestig keep it up
Tyrion is my favorite part of a Dance with Dragons.
I am not joking. I’d be happy to share more.
George has stated several times that Tyrion is the easiest character to write for and that “they seem to write themselves”
True, but that could have been more in reference to earlier Tyrion, not this depressed Tyrion that's getting tangled in the Mereen plot.
I love the videos preston! Never get to comment early on a video but we appreciate you so much! Keep up the good work!!
Tyrion is the darling that GRRM must kill.
No fan would dare to do that.
"Every time that Jory isn't on the page, people should be asking 'Hey - where's Jory?'
I think GRRM saw what D&D did with Tyrion in the last couple of seasons of GoT and is probably going above and beyond to make sure that doesn’t happen in the books
Hes not even writing the books anymore, lol
This is Prestons winded explanation as to why every Tyrion chapter he writes will be short asl lol
I got to disagree somewhat. I highly enjoy Tyrion and Illyrio talking in the wagon. I find this highly intriguing. Almost like a small council meeting. Am I my way off?
When Illyrio and Tyrion talk business, it is fascinating, but it’s amazing how little they actually talk compared to everything else in Tyrion I and II
The reason D&D cut out Tyrion's arc in ADWD is that the Tyrion in that arc turns rather dark, and they didn't want that.
Tbh Preston I think George is slowing down George's writing
I like the Tyrion Travel log tbh. I'd like to naturally see more of Essos