Baaeed, Frankel and Sea the Stars | The Greatest Juddmonte Winners of All Time?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ส.ค. 2022
- Sea the Stars in 2009. Frankel in 2012. Baaeed in 2022. Are these the three greatest ever winners of the Juddmonte International Stakes?
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Frankel, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, and Sea Bird were the best i've ever seen.
Well, you should get out more.
@@djbillybopdjbillybop2817 I'm 1948 Vintage son. I've probably been out before you came out of your mother's womb.
Sea The Stars the only horse in history to complete 2,000 Guineas - Derby - Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe in the same season. Six Group 1’s back to back in one season. He of course also won this Juddmonte as cosily as he did every other race. He is amongst the pantheon of the greats.
Sea the stars champion real greatest from Frankel Frankel was horse short distances
Broke the track record as well
The 1972 running of this race when Roberto beat Brigadier Gerard was one of the greatest races ever to take place on English soil.
@Stephen Small Read up on the race.
Yes, great in the sense that the first two both broke the track record. But for me, THE greatest 'race' on English soil was IMO the 1975 King George (Grundy/Bustino). The best 2000 Guineas I've ever seen was the 1971 renewal when Brigadier Gerard trounced Mill Reef and My Swallow.
I don't believe i will ever see a horse like Frankel in my lifetime again. He was the King.
See The Stars John Oxx said Sea The Stars was the horse that I will always remember him by. To my mind, he was the best horse I’ve ever seen in my 40 years and I’d even put him ahead of Frankel. In my opinion, Sea The Stars would have beaten Frankel every day. For Oxx’s horse to win six Group 1s in six months was a truly remarkable achievement and it’s hard to see that feat happening again anytime soon
@@djbillybopdjbillybop2817 I think Frankel was simply another level to Sea The Stars. The only way Sea The Stars would have a prayer against Frankel is to give him a head start. Another than that forget it.
@@paradisehotel5005 Yeah, Frankel would have beaten Sea The Stars over ten furlongs.
Best miler el gran senor best mile and quarter sts and Frankel best mile and a half dancing brave best all-rounder sts
@@denisoncall6234 Best all round horse Mill Reef.
We can only say we were blessed that we saw all three great horses in our lifetime
Of the Juddmonte’s I’d say Baaeed’s was the most impressive👍🏻 He stretched out like Black Beauty in the last 1f absolutely loved the distance, he’s a lovely Horse🐴🔥
Frankel is now the benchmark for any aspiring European "wonder horse".
I'm with you there.
Any horse
Sea The Stars recorded the fastest time and beat in Mater Craftsman a horse that Aiden and Johnny thought was on the day almost unbeatable with the entire field excepting STS comprised of one powerful team setting it up for him. Excepting that times are not the full story for sure, STS also on very similar ground conditions recorded a faster time than Frankel over a mile in the 2,000 Guineas.
Frankel was great undoubtedly. However he only ran on with one exception in favourable ground conditions, in one country and at until his last two races up to a mile often against the same group of milers always almost always against, excepting the Guineas in small fields. He was not tested beyond a mile as a four year old and late into his third season on the track. He was all the same spectacular.
Sea The Stars in one season won six group one's in three countries at a mile to a mile and a half and ten furlongs in between for good measure, beating a large field of almost 20 horses winning from an impossible position in the Arc. Baaeed if he runs in and wins the Arc would make it two horses that have achieved more and demonstrated a level(no matter how spectacular his wins) that the great Frankel did not achieve.
Both Sea The Stars and Frankel have been successful at stud but I know which stallion I'd choose.
There was a 40 knot head wind when Frankel ran in the 2000 Guineas, do your homework on such matters. Frankel beats Sea The Stars in everything that matters. Timeform ratings, BHB ratings, winning distances.... even TH-cam views if you care to take any notice of that. Frankel was simply another level to Sea The Stars. Ribot, Sea Bird, Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, and Frankel. Sea The Stars does not belong at that table.
@@rivergold4835 I was aware that there was a headwind in Frankel's Guineas, but it was not close to 40 knots, that is nonsense. Also the ratings you quote were(as is being increasingly acknowledged) very badly wrong when created. They are in no way objective. The people responsible for those ratings have had to go to several justifications, explanations and excuses including even having to asterisk and revise them ever since they cocked up as they have got so much stick inside the industry. Considering STS's was never fully all out in any of his races and we saw Frankel eye ball's out a few times it is increadibly difficult to give an accurate comparison and certainly the origional mark's were ridiculous in Frankel's favour. This again is being increasingly acknowledged and revised. The other points I made regarding, versitility in trip, Frankel never traveling further than Yorkshire. Another point I never mentioned that if you know anything about horses is also highly relevant is that in terms of temperament, STS's was way ahead of Frankel. As a mere three year old STS's was able to achieve all that he did(raced on tbree countries, winning the 6 group one's at various distances etc) without missing a step or showing any perceptible stress. Frankel took all the great Henry Cecil's craft and patience to be able to stay beyond a mile(a trip that his breading suggested should have been a formality) and the only at the end of his third season on the track
I am not trying to suggest that Frankel was not anything but one of the greatest horses to strp foot on the track and I saw him run in person whuch was a huge thrill but many, many way better judges than you, people that have made their living right at the top of the sport rate STS's as the better horse. I have no issue at all if you rate Frankel as the better horse but to suggest that he was even close to being in a different class makes you look a bit ridiculous.
Have the others run a race like that guineas win by Frankel.
Frankel
I'm just glad I was alive to see Sea the Stars and Frankel. Hopefully Baaeed can win the Arc. (Draw permitting) and join the first two in the 'legends' of the game.
GOAT very difficult, but in my opinion when it comes to the greatest win in the Juddmonte, Frankel's cruise past the field along the rail and Baaeed's turn of foot are the two WOW moments for me. I can't split them. Sea The Stars had the benefit of a trainer who was happy to take on the biggest races, whatever the distance, but his Juddmonte win was not his most visually impressive. Still, feel privileged to have seen them all.
For someone that has watched quite a bit of horse racing this is a very appropriate answer. As someone who KNOWS horse racing it is clear that the horse would've gotten going at any point from round the final bend and won easily. All involved wanted to make it look like a race so the horse wasn't 1/20 next time!
@@RustyPeng Not quite sure I understand your reply. None of the connections of these great horses cares what odds the horse would be in subsequent races. Winning was all that mattered. If you had said they gave the horse, presuming you mean STS, as easy time as possible, as had further targets, then I would agree, but odds concerns? I think not. Though it's great to have a reply from someone who KNOWS racing, while I just watch quite a bit 😉
It´s not always about visually impressive racing. Sea The Stars ran the track record that day, still not broken. So what´s more impressive, winning with track record by 1 length or 5s slower but winning by 10 length? Well, the better performance is the track record.
King Frankel of course.
Sea the Stars a class above them all. Simply the greatest of all time.
To be fair Mastercraftsman not s bad sire either. So that would point to STS being really good! Possibly Frankel is abit of a freak he was kind so big so fast. His kids are basically the same.
U sure lol
Luke's on the juice lol
@@Dwayndibb Frankel looked fast on tape because he easily ran away from his contenders. But Sea The Stars actually beats 78% of the splits with Frankel.
All brilliant in their own way. Difficult to compare because they all are very different characters and have different running styles. I always think they never ever got to the bottom of Sea The Stars. He only ever really did just enough, but I've always thought his Arc win was something to behold. Just 3 great horses. The best I've seen in the last 20 years.
You cannot compare those 3 exceptional horses. It's like saying who was better, Pele or Messi. All were fantastic at what they achieved and we should just be thankful for having these wonder horses in our lifetime.
I agree. It's like how do you compare Usain Bolt with Jesse Owens ?
See the stars and frankel
Frankel all the way.
Sakhee has his place in the pantheon of the Great European grass champions! One the greatest strides I have ever seen.
Most underrated horse ever.
It also depends on how good were the horses they beat on that day. Johnny Murtagh said Mastercraftsman was in top form and ran his best race so it took an incredible horse to beat him. Besides this I like how all three are closely related.
Frankel followed by Baaeed.
Frankel was 3 seconds faster than baeed
Both Horses were not pushed though I think it’s difficult to compare times, both great🐴🔥
Sea the stars champion real greatest from Frankel Frankel was horse short distances sea the stars winner 2000 gunies and Epsom derby and Irish and arc triomphe was the greatest of all time
Brilliant video
All three could be called great no problem after that gets personal choice
SEA THE STARS
Frankel visually the best horse. Sea the stars is the GOAT - he achieved more as a 3 yo than any of them. His ARC performance was incredible. Haggas and Cecil swerved it - lost their bottle - no comparison
All the best for there times .but frankel was the god you will not see a frankel for many years . Its the same for kauto star on the jumps 😎
For jumps ... Sprinter Sacre, imperious ... but maybe just maybe Constitution Hill.
@@keithf1652 Yeah, Frankel is more like Sprinters Sacre in jumps racing. Great at one distance. Sea The Stars would be the Kauto Star comparison, much more versatile and much better collection and trophy case.
@@justinharper6909
Ah to be fair to Sprinter Sacre, yes at his best unbeatable at 2 miles. But don't forget how he slaugthtered Cue Card over 2 1/2 miles at Aintree.
Judged on the turn of foot then obviously Frankel but based on winning distance then it’d be Baeed. Sea The Stars also needs to be mentioned, he mightn’t have won by the biggest margins but still deserves credit. I think the best Judmomte International winner is BAEED just because it was his first time tackling this new distance and as the commentator said when Jim Crowley said go the response was instantaneous, but the best horse out of these three is Frankel.
Yes and Mishriff hasn't won race in 1 year. Was 8 lengths beaten in King George so 6 lengths in Juddmonte.
On this evidence Frankel stands out but I highly doubt he could live with Sea The Stars. That one was a rare thing of beauty.
Yes probably Sea the Stars at 1m4f and Frankel at 1m2f sounds fair.
Then we could let all us horses have the 1mile1f Kentucky which sounds fair.
Based on what? STS form doesn’t stand up against Frankel’s at any age of his career. Frankel would have eviscerated STS at any distance. Do you genuinely believe Franke would have been all out to beat a 128 rated Mastercraftsman? He beat two very similar rates animals in his own Juddmonte by 7 lengths hands and heels!
@@mikelelwood682 If he was that great why didn't Frankel run in the Derby or the Arc? The only classic Frankel won was the 2000 guineas whereas Sea the Stars won the 2000 guineas, The Derby AND the Arc ALL in the same season!!
@@mikelelwood682 STS was never all out that was his style only ever done enough. In the st James palace stakes Frankel was all out to bt a horse rated 115 in Zoffany but that race Frankel fans seem to forget
Totally agree he the best I've seen and I've seen them all from Nijinsky to Frankel.
Assert in 1982 was a special performance.
These great animals have their place of honor in my heart. I don’t know who is not honoring
them as they should be, but human beings are selfish, biased, and disgustingly rude! And I
don’t care “who they ‘think’ they are!” Give honor where it is demanded!
Undisputed Champion is most fitting for Frankel Baaeed showed a clean pair of heels close home Master Craftsman made Sea the Stars work for his win
Two legends and another to join them soon enjoy them while you can no need to compare 😀
I completely agree! No need to compare these great champions!
I think godolphin's horse Sakhee is up there too with those greats !!!
There’s been lots of fantastic horses in my time watching racing over 55 years +, but Sea The Stars was the best horse I’ve ever seen. Debatable whether he’d beat Frankel over a mile, but anything above that, I think STS would have come out on top.
Franker all day
It’s impossible to say
The only way you can say which was best is if you know for certain just how much better Mastercraftsman was than Mishriff Farhh and St NA.
STS virtually won a match race with one very high class opponent whereas the others easily beat probably lesser horses.
Yes honestly we aren't being mean. Mishriff hasnt won a race in 1 year. Beaten 8 lengths in king George.
Baaeed is like one of those boxers people avoid or something.
Halling was the most impressive winner I can remember, and did it twice on different grounds and different tactics. Best race was when Authorized beat Dylan Thomas, Notnowcato and Duke of Marmalade
To me, in the 2001 Breeder’s Cup, the great Sakhee did not lose that race! I know Tiznow had a whisker in front; but that was a “dead heat” if I’ve ever seen one, even though to me
Tiznow had all of the advantages of time of rest and preparation.
Spanner in the works guys & girls. i think its Mishriff for the Joddmonte.
2009 - Sea the Stars: 9: 8-0-0 with prize money of roughly £4,400,000
2012 - Frankel: 14: 14-0-0 with prize money of roughly £4,000,000
2021 - Mishriff: 18: 7-4-3 with prize money of roughly £11,600,000*
2022 - Baaeed: 10: 10-0-0 with prize money of roughly £2,600,000 **
* Mishriff raced the bigger races hence the higher price money yet has a lesser record
** Mishriff & Baaeed are still racing, so prize money probably will go up
Horse racing is just like boxing, who's the greatest; is it Ali, Tyson, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey? Perhaps someone else, who knows???
boxing,
Perhaps in Horseracing its none of the above Stallions/Colts as the filly Kincsem won ALL of her 54 races and had she been born now she may well beat the boys. If you don't know who she is, this is her record - Kincsem: 54: 54-0-0
I love horse racing and Boxing
Your argument for placing Mishriff above the others is WAY OFF ! Prizemoney just doesn't enter the equation.
@@keithf1652 Sorry i could have been a bit clearer. What i ment (but didn't make clear) is Mishriff's win in 2021 is equally as good as the others and he has run in bigger races and isn't scared to get involved hence the larger price money he's earnt. IMHO he's an equal to the others and shouldn't have been excluded.
i do think prize money is important as in alot of sports including horse racing its often disproportionately paid to the winner compared to finishing elsewhere (i.e. Frankel has a perfect record and maxed his earnings with £4m and Baaeed also has a perfect record like Frankel and YTD has equally maxed his earnings with £2.6m. In comparison Mishriff has an imperfect record but has £11.6m in earnings).
The real question for me is why leave Mishriff out of the video (especially as he's still running like Baaeed).
Link to Mishriff's 2021 win for those interested: th-cam.com/video/0fW2Jqrwg5Q/w-d-xo.html
Sea the stars tutta la vita! Con Dancing Brave e Ribot la triade perfetta!
The only question I have of frankel and baeed the won all there races in there own backyard never traveled as to sea the stars he done it the hard way won in Ireland and England and France which takes a very good horse to do it that’s why for me he will always get the verdict
Alpinista,
The commentator said the undisputed champion of the world Frankel what is there to dispute who is the best Juddemonte winner Frankel of course do not forget Sea the Stars and Baaeed are one as they are father and son Frankel is the King without a doubt
Frankel would beat the others over 10.5 furlongs, and even easier over a mile. As to a mile and half well on the evidence we have it’s Sea the Stars. Baeed has beaten mediocre horses most of his racing career, bar Palace Pier and Mishriff, even Mishriff you can question the form. Three very good horses, 2 greats I believe.
IMO Sea the stars, Frankel then Baaeed
Frankel was amazing...
Without doubt Sea the Stars was the greatest of all time. He won classics and the great races from 8 to 12 furlongs which is the hallmark .Without doubt his ARC success when he ran so free is in my view the standard setter. Finally physically he was imperious.
Beating Youmzain and Cavalryman a 1 3/4 lengths is hardly awe inspiring form no matter how you dress it up. Even the form of this Juddmonte isn’t great. He needed a lot of assistance from Kinane and the whip just to get by Mastercraftsman a 128 rated animal at his best. Frankel would have put 7-8 lengths on Mastercraftsman…
@@mikelelwood682 The difference is that Sea the Stars could do it from 1m to 1m 4 in all conditions in all the big races. Frankel was good and flashy on occasions but that’s where it ends.
@@mikelelwood682
Have you watched that Arc ? I watched it and in running I looked at Sea The Stars and thought 'he's running so free he can't possibly win'. Yet in the straight he zoomed past them and won going right away. Astonishing performance.
@@dominicbrady555
I agree. When comparing Sea The Stars with Frankel I've often thought that the achievements of STS outweigh those of Frankel.
@@mikelelwood682 So Frankel who could not even beat STS record Juddmonte time would have run away that day. Yes buddy.
Baaeed and Sea The Stars both exceptional horses... but against Frankel?... not a hope in hell!
Give me a break. Frankel and Baaeed both decent horses but one classic collectively to their name and no Arc between them ! The Champion races are there for a reason . Next thing you’ll be saying is Desert Orchid was the greatest steeplechaser of all time! Flashy means nothing.
@@dominicbrady555 8 and 10 furlong races is what really matters nowadays. Look at the Epsom Derby... with each year that passes it loses it's appeal. If a horse wins Group 1 races at 12 furlongs only it will almost certainly end up as a jumps stallion. I wouldn't know if Desert Orchid is or isn't the greatest steepchaser of all time. National Hunt racing to me is utter crap.
@@dominicbrady555 There's a chance that Baaeed will run in the Arc, for which he's currently the ante-post favourite. Would be nice to see it.
By what he achieved has to be See The Stars,
STS Sea Bird Secretariat
sea the stars won derby and arc de triphone his son baeed strikes
people it's got to be FRANKEL !!!
Timeform ratings tell you the answer
HAVE you all forgotten dancing brave
I'm not sure Dancing Brave ran at York?
Don't matter sts the greatest
What about Roberto?
SEA THE STARS all day
I wonder what Henry Cecil would say about Baaeed if he was alive.
Frankel was a monster the likes of which we'll probably not see again. I do think Baaeed is a better horse than his father at 10f though.
Sea The Stars won the equivalent in Football of the FA Cup, The Premier League ,and The Champions League in the same season ..Frankel won the FA Cup.Just to explain FA Cup = 2000 guineas.. The Premier League= The Derby.. The Champions League= The Arc
The problem I have with the Champions League (The Arc) is that it's often played on a soggy pitch.
Ö 2 Eyes 4 to enjoy TMC 🐅 Media Horse Race 🦆
Arrogate best all time 🐎
sea the stars won from 8 to 12 furlongs. won everything (apart from coming second in his maiden). won the guineas which is a straight sprint over a mile, won the juddmont, the derby, the arc in a different country etc. Frankel won all his runs between 8 and 10 furlongs didn't he/ still incredible though. baaeed, he lost his last race, none of the others did. So gotta go with the other 2
fightline is the best
Arrogate the best ever
I really do think baaeed will become the greatest ever. I think he will win the champion stakes by at least 6 lengths then we can literally debate frankel vs baaeed
Just pulled out of the Irish Champion stakes. Yes there will be 1 more race? It's only Augest.
Not Baaeed's fault. Just his owners prioritise breeding over racing results. As they can as it's there money 100%.
Otherwise he could go to the Breeders cup. Really unfortunate.
Look let's see his future as a stallion hopefully he stays healthy and we see how he gets on.
Sea the star was NOT unbeaten as he lost his first ever race, so he is definitely is out of the discussion for being the greatest! Baaeed if he wins the Arc...you would have to give it to him on merit as Frankel did not achieve this but I would think that if they had ever raced....Frankel would beat them both at 1m-1.2m...conversation over!! (drops the mic)
Harsh to criticise Sea The Stars just because he lost (was 4th) in his debut as a 2-y-o. Secretariat was one of the all-time greats, as was War Admiral, as was Nijinsky. But all three were beaten at some stage.
@@keithf1652 No one is disputing all these horses you listed were great horses...but we are talking about "THE" G.O.A.T and not "One of" and therefore you have to be UNBEATEN at the highest level to get this title.
There is only one F
sea bird is the greatest horse ever. if it was foaled fifty years later contenporary media would show clearly how great he is. we would have film/video from many angles and in much greater abundance. sea bird would be analyzed to death and writers would wax lyrical about him to the same extent that frankel was. timeform rate frankel higher than sea bird but many other "exerts" rate sea bird higher. lester p;iggot is one of those. all those armchair analysts never rode a racehorse in their life. the opinions of trainers and jockeys are far more relevant.
Agreed . Sea Bird was the horse the French called the Nonpariel ( having no equal , unrivalled ) . The great and the good of racing , including Sir Peter O'Sullevan and Lester Piggott , considered Sea Bird the greatest of all . A truly magnificent racehorse .
Johny Murtagh was a better jockey than M Kinane.. Kinane was just riding the better horse..
Baaeed on a good day won’t beat frankel, sea the stars doesn’t either, that frankel was ridiculous…. End of
Frankel