Sorry to hear that. I honestly cannot think of much to contribute here other than what others have mentioned. Though wheelchair fencing is a lot like horseback swordsmanship. Perhaps find some people that want to work on cavalry sabre? Just a thought.
Trying to get hold of a wheelchair fencing locking frame at the mo. Wheelchair Sports fencing is dull (even Sabre, my weapon on choice) but trying to think of ways to mod it for "proper" sabre fencing or rapier (the cavendish system looks like it'll work).
That's always nice to hear. One of the problems is that history is generally taught badly through schools. Taught in such a way that it is boring. Well that's just tragic.
Nick the Auditor lol, I found this video strangely interesting to nerd out to, I'm an INTP personality type, so I can just sit here and listen to boring statistics all day and enjoy it. None of the data surprised me to be honest, it all pretty much lined up with my estimations, except I thought the amount of people who took an interest in the history and manuals would be higher.
about one fifth to one quarter right now. When the four of us started the club, (Mike and I included), the other two were high quality sport fencers, and we soon had two sport fencing coaches too. Very few who still practice sport fencing though. Most of them who come to us are bored or disgruntled with sport fencing and are looking for something different. That isn't to paint a negative picture of the sport of fencing, but it clearly appeals to different mindset for most.
I did mention that in the video. About a quarter of our students regularly practice something combat related other than HEMA, or have to a serious degree in the past. Chinese and Japanese sword based martial arts. Muay Thai, Karate,Judo, Jiu Jitsu, quite a range. Personally I did six years Tae Kwon Do, and around six months Muay Thai, ad dabbled in a mix of other things too.
Ah right got you. Very few of them watch live fights. A number like myself watch them on youtube after the events, as they are both entertaining and interesting to study. But we just pick and choose the good fights. I think the problem with watching sport, whether it is combat or not, is that it is frequently rather boring watching it, as opposed to participating, and only worth it for the great fights. Last live fight I watched was Floyd Mayweather vs Manny Pacquiao, and that was a prime example of how watching fights can be incredibly disappointing!
Wow, very interesting. Thanks. So, if there is a significant flow of people through a club, any cluib, what could be done to keep them coming back - is there some data to explain and allow more people to stay in the HEMA community? Also, I am very keen to understand what the pull is.. what does HEMA tap into? It is quite possible, even likely, that encouraging and opening a rich tapestry of the past has an impact? I do not believe HEMA is only drills and sparring. It seems to be something else, more subtle and influencing... it offers a different way to interpret and experience the world. I might even go further and suggest, for me, it is a process, a meeting, an interaction, a submission to something? What, when, how? Dunno. Just the brief glimpse at a fleeting moment when the ego dissolves. Very strange but entrancing. So, for me, I might rationalise why I want to do this this wonderful activity of body and mind - to get fit, get out the flat, hit people, spend less money (yeh, well that expectation was quickly corrected) etc etc. But, to be honest, that is just surface. There be dragons and quite the most wonderful, precious things to discover and allow to flower.. or sumfink. And not one ounce of alcohol has passed my lips tonight.... hmmmmm
Students and younger age people are the most common first timers. For some it isn't what they expected, but for most it is a commitment, and that's not something they will do. As they age group increases, so does the likelihood for staying. Based on that we're happy to concentrate on those with a genuine interest, and that's why we have a solid, reliable core in each club. -Michael
My experience is that every popular martial arts club has a significant flow of people. That is because so many people dabble. How many people join a gym and do 1-3 weeks and never again? I have seen the same at pretty much every hobby, and especially martial arts and combat sports. I don't think we need to necessarily try and understand why people don't come back. Just make it as interesting, fun and engaging as we can. Those with enough interest and dedication will stay. As for the reason that draws people to HEMA. I have often asked this and done polls in our clubs. It is quite a mix. Overall I would say it largely comes down to the human fascination with the sword on a larger scale, and the fact that they can use and fight with them in HEMA is a dream come true. Also I think HEMA appeals in a way that a lot of other martial arts and sports don't. So many martial arts clubs spend almost all of their time In drills or conditioning, and that is not the HEMA way. People want to get stuck in and fight, a lot, and in HEMA they get that opportunity.
Hi, thanks for the replies. I guess sowing the HEMA seeds as potential students dabble is important; something is sampled? I like the fascination aspect, that describes my experience well - perhaps best sometimes to go with the flow and enjoy what is being offered with the hope that something is contributed in return. Thanks again.
Ah yes I forgot to mention LARP, and the SCA too. There have been very few from either to join us. Perhaps one in thirty or forty, if you combined LARP and SCA into the same statistic, that is how few. It is hardly surprising, neither are very popular over here. I am sure US HEMA groups get more from them.
+Academy of Historical Fencing i'm from France in a reenactment group with 1/15 larpers and in czech republic we have something like 1out of 10 or more larpers in the hema group.
I wish I could join something like this. My favorite part of my old taekwondo classes was the weapons training. Unfortunately I don't know of any such clubs where I live, and time restraints would almost certainly prevent me from joining anyway. I do think though that I could do pretty well if I was able to join, since I always did pretty well with combat sparring.
Cost of the weapon, and offhand weapons. Any rapiers worth having are £265-300 minimum, but with other weapon options, very high quality synthetic options are available for £60-70. The go to longsword or sabre, and they are used standalone, as opposed to the common offhand weapons in rapier.
We recommend that gear for synthetic sparring anyway, but when you think you can buy essentially all your protective gear and a synthetic sword for about £400, a rapier and dagger will cost the same again. I don't mind it at all, but then not everyone is into it to the same degree that I am. The costs of rapier are a barrier to people, especially when compared to the other options available.
Not surprised at all about the dearth of women in the club. That seems to happen a lot in the martial arts. A shame really... :P Here's a question: among the women in your club, is there a weapon style that they tend to gravitate more towards when compared to their male colleagues? Reason I ask is because the university SCA club I used to train at seemed to have had a lot more women training in rapier when compared to other weapon styles.
Indeed it is a shame, but the trend seems to be changing slowly. As for women's preference for weapons in the club. It is a total mix between them actually, though not a lot of rapier work. But that's hardly surprising, we don't do near as much rapier as we used to. In large part because sabre has become so popular, and partly because compared to the other combinations, it is expensive to get into.
That's interesting. Why has sabre become so popular and how does that exactly affect the popularity of training rapier? Is it because the two weapons share similar techniques but one is much cheaper to get into?
As instructors we started teaching sabre around 2007/8, although with a history in ECW period hanger and basket hilt fighting stretching back to the mid 90's, it was a short jump on to it. Because we love sabre and teach and use it so much, that obviously influences the club. Also the development of good training swords. In the early to mid 2000's there were very few suppliers. The Hanwei hutton sabre was about the only option, and it was poor. The increase in availability of sabres has helped encourage it. Also the development and availability of firstly the Knightshop basket hilt, which effectively worked as a singlestick, sabre trainer, and then the Black Fencer synthetic sabres. The BF sabre is cheap, robust, and easy to get into. Sabre is also a easier system to learn than rapier. Lastly costs. Indeed this is a major factor. A synthetic sabre is 1/5 the cost of a steel rapier, and is usually used solo, meaning no extra costs for companion weapons. Honestly I would love to see rapier done more in the club, but since people have been spoiled with cheap and high quality BlackFencer products in the last couple of years, few want to stretch to buying rapiers now.
Nick Thomas I am from India there seems to be no HEMA clubs or schools that teach historical swordsmanship. What do I do? So far I've only been reading historical fencing manuels and practicing partner drills at home and most people from my area only have an intrest in aesthetic martial arts. Please give me some advice
Nikil Bellad It might be simply not called HEMA as there is no one agreed upon name outside US and west Europe. And even in US and west Europe there is many, older, similar ideas/organisations. Also name HEMA is quite new and just happen become popular on YT.
Czorńy Lisek I agree with you. No wonder I couldn't find any HEMA club or anyone having a particular interest for it. Let alone knowing what HEMA is. Anyway thanks for responding to comment I've been dying for someone to reply
Modify it in what way? Yes we encourage people all around the world to practice HEMA, and there are many non western clubs that already practice it. I know of clubs in China, Thailand and Turkey for example. An interest in a martial art need not be limited to the region that it began or was common. In fact in Britain we drew most of our sword styles from other nations anyway!
As someone with an interest in medievalism since I was a teenager in the 1990s, it has always struck me as odd that the SCA and other people interested either re-enacting the period or learning its martial arts tend so overwhelmingly to be irreligious. It would seem natural that the Catholic spirituality of the age would appeal to people attracted to the period in general, but in my experience, new agey neo-paganism or an active dislike of religion seems more typical. Personally, I'd find a HEMA club that was infused with the spirit of Christian chivalry that actually motivated the warriors of the era more of an attractive thing to be involved in. I'm interested whether this is more the case for the Poles and Spaniards that do HEMA in the UK, which you mention have a notable presence in the club.
In the UK, and Europe generally, there are very few followers of religion in HEMA. The vast majority are atheist or agnostic. But that is representative of the populations generally, so hardly surprising. The only place I see particularly religious people practicing HEMA and similar is the US. Where again, religion is a bigger deal. The US is also more interested in chivalry, with a very romantic vision of it. Most HEMA is not about the chivalric arts anyway, but from the Renaissance and age of enlightment onwards. Of the rise of the middle classes who were the primary patrons of fencing schools. People who were not motivated or driven by religion, but of a means of defence and also sport. Move on to the era of military swordsmanship and once again, not a religious motivation. They were motivated by money, status, power and glory, depending on who you look at. None of the Poles or Spaniards in our club are religious. In fact of our roughly 100 active members, I can only think of two that have any religious faith. One Christian and one Muslim.
OK. Fair enough. The UK sounds roughly like Australia: we've been a relatively godless place since colonial times. I suspect our HEMA clubs are roughly the same in this regard. I'd question whether chivalry in the broader sense wasn't representative of British martial arts in the Renaissance through Victorian eras though: C.S. Lewis was writing about the gentlemanly ideal of the British upper classes as a living tradition of chivalry around the time of the First World War, and he wrote an essay much commending it to men of all classes. The Arthurian romances and their code of honour also had a fairly strong influence on the Victorians, and I suspect Lewis was writing his essay on the tail end of this trend. The specifically Catholic manifestations of this tradition weren't especially influential, of course, but I get the sense that the ideals of chivalry didn't really die off in a significant way until the cultural revolution that swept the West in the late 1960s, or at least some time after the First World War. In that respect, the British manifestation of the chivalric tradition seems like it might have played a role in historical British martial arts something like the role of Buddhist and Taoist spirituality in the East Asian martial arts, even if it has become more or less extinct in the present age. Just a thought.
Great video, and useful information. Thanks.
Maybe time to revisit this? Or should this be due on the centeneray?
-Slack
Really miss HEMA but due to a spinal injury can't do much now :( Any tips or ideas?
Wheelchair HEMA!
Sorry to hear that. I honestly cannot think of much to contribute here other than what others have mentioned. Though wheelchair fencing is a lot like horseback swordsmanship. Perhaps find some people that want to work on cavalry sabre? Just a thought.
Trying to get hold of a wheelchair fencing locking frame at the mo. Wheelchair Sports fencing is dull (even Sabre, my weapon on choice) but trying to think of ways to mod it for "proper" sabre fencing or rapier (the cavendish system looks like it'll work).
Thats sounds like fun!
i didn't like history much until i started doing hema
That's always nice to hear. One of the problems is that history is generally taught badly through schools. Taught in such a way that it is boring. Well that's just tragic.
This is so cool, I wanna join one but I'm not really sociable and I dont have an epic 18th century stache
You don't need to be sociable to hit people with swords! Stache grows with experience :-)
if only! i'm 24 and i dont even have a stubble. save your condolences ;
Nick the Auditor lol, I found this video strangely interesting to nerd out to, I'm an INTP personality type, so I can just sit here and listen to boring statistics all day and enjoy it. None of the data surprised me to be honest, it all pretty much lined up with my estimations, except I thought the amount of people who took an interest in the history and manuals would be higher.
I wish I lived where you guys are!
Are there no groups near you? -Michael
There are. But none of your caliber.
what would you put as the number who have done sport fencing?
about one fifth to one quarter right now. When the four of us started the club, (Mike and I included), the other two were high quality sport fencers, and we soon had two sport fencing coaches too. Very few who still practice sport fencing though. Most of them who come to us are bored or disgruntled with sport fencing and are looking for something different. That isn't to paint a negative picture of the sport of fencing, but it clearly appeals to different mindset for most.
How much interest do your students have in other martial arts? Traditional Eastern, Western and modern combat sports like MMA?
I did mention that in the video. About a quarter of our students regularly practice something combat related other than HEMA, or have to a serious degree in the past. Chinese and Japanese sword based martial arts. Muay Thai, Karate,Judo, Jiu Jitsu, quite a range. Personally I did six years Tae Kwon Do, and around six months Muay Thai, ad dabbled in a mix of other things too.
I meant an interest rather than being practitioners. Like regularly watching MMA fights.
Ah right got you. Very few of them watch live fights. A number like myself watch them on youtube after the events, as they are both entertaining and interesting to study. But we just pick and choose the good fights. I think the problem with watching sport, whether it is combat or not, is that it is frequently rather boring watching it, as opposed to participating, and only worth it for the great fights.
Last live fight I watched was Floyd Mayweather vs Manny Pacquiao, and that was a prime example of how watching fights can be incredibly disappointing!
It allmost sounds lik most Girls havn´t discoverd the fun of hiting others with weapons.
Some of us have! :D
Great video!
Wow, very interesting. Thanks.
So, if there is a significant flow of people through a club, any cluib, what could be done to keep them coming back - is there some data to explain and allow more people to stay in the HEMA community?
Also, I am very keen to understand what the pull is.. what does HEMA tap into? It is quite possible, even likely, that encouraging and opening a rich tapestry of the past has an impact? I do not believe HEMA is only drills and sparring. It seems to be something else, more subtle and influencing... it offers a different way to interpret and experience the world. I might even go further and suggest, for me, it is a process, a meeting, an interaction, a submission to something? What, when, how? Dunno. Just the brief glimpse at a fleeting moment when the ego dissolves. Very strange but entrancing.
So, for me, I might rationalise why I want to do this this wonderful activity of body and mind - to get fit, get out the flat, hit people, spend less money (yeh, well that expectation was quickly corrected) etc etc. But, to be honest, that is just surface. There be dragons and quite the most wonderful, precious things to discover and allow to flower.. or sumfink. And not one ounce of alcohol has passed my lips tonight.... hmmmmm
Students and younger age people are the most common first timers. For some it isn't what they expected, but for most it is a commitment, and that's not something they will do. As they age group increases, so does the likelihood for staying.
Based on that we're happy to concentrate on those with a genuine interest, and that's why we have a solid, reliable core in each club.
-Michael
My experience is that every popular martial arts club has a significant flow of people. That is because so many people dabble. How many people join a gym and do 1-3 weeks and never again? I have seen the same at pretty much every hobby, and especially martial arts and combat sports.
I don't think we need to necessarily try and understand why people don't come back. Just make it as interesting, fun and engaging as we can. Those with enough interest and dedication will stay.
As for the reason that draws people to HEMA. I have often asked this and done polls in our clubs. It is quite a mix. Overall I would say it largely comes down to the human fascination with the sword on a larger scale, and the fact that they can use and fight with them in HEMA is a dream come true.
Also I think HEMA appeals in a way that a lot of other martial arts and sports don't. So many martial arts clubs spend almost all of their time In drills or conditioning, and that is not the HEMA way. People want to get stuck in and fight, a lot, and in HEMA they get that opportunity.
Hi, thanks for the replies. I guess sowing the HEMA seeds as potential students dabble is important; something is sampled? I like the fascination aspect, that describes my experience well - perhaps best sometimes to go with the flow and enjoy what is being offered with the hope that something is contributed in return. Thanks again.
..or on second thougts, HEMA does present a paradox or two. I quite like a paradox.
what about larpers?
Ah yes I forgot to mention LARP, and the SCA too. There have been very few from either to join us. Perhaps one in thirty or forty, if you combined LARP and SCA into the same statistic, that is how few. It is hardly surprising, neither are very popular over here. I am sure US HEMA groups get more from them.
+Academy of Historical Fencing i'm from France in a reenactment group with 1/15 larpers and in czech republic we have something like 1out of 10 or more larpers in the hema group.
I wish I could join something like this. My favorite part of my old taekwondo classes was the weapons training. Unfortunately I don't know of any such clubs where I live, and time restraints would almost certainly prevent me from joining anyway. I do think though that I could do pretty well if I was able to join, since I always did pretty well with combat sparring.
interesting... I am 23, and am totally focused in martial arts, rather than crazy BON and other full contact nightly combats.
Sci-Fi author? That's news to me! Care to plug some of your work? :)
Both instructors are authors:
Michael Thomas author page: facebook.com/starcrusader/
Nick Thomas author page: facebook.com/battleearth/
Judging from Amazon reviews you are pretty fucking good at it
+Timmy Turner we are!
Do you know of any clubs near Chester or the Wirral?
Checkout this club finder, it looks like there are two clubs near you -
www.communitywalk.com/map/index/942724
Ah thank you very much for that. I will check them out. :)
Why is it expensive to get into rapier?
Cost of the weapon, and offhand weapons. Any rapiers worth having are £265-300 minimum, but with other weapon options, very high quality synthetic options are available for £60-70. The go to longsword or sabre, and they are used standalone, as opposed to the common offhand weapons in rapier.
We recommend that gear for synthetic sparring anyway, but when you think you can buy essentially all your protective gear and a synthetic sword for about £400, a rapier and dagger will cost the same again. I don't mind it at all, but then not everyone is into it to the same degree that I am. The costs of rapier are a barrier to people, especially when compared to the other options available.
Not surprised at all about the dearth of women in the club. That seems to happen a lot in the martial arts. A shame really... :P
Here's a question: among the women in your club, is there a weapon style that they tend to gravitate more towards when compared to their male colleagues? Reason I ask is because the university SCA club I used to train at seemed to have had a lot more women training in rapier when compared to other weapon styles.
Indeed it is a shame, but the trend seems to be changing slowly. As for women's preference for weapons in the club. It is a total mix between them actually, though not a lot of rapier work. But that's hardly surprising, we don't do near as much rapier as we used to. In large part because sabre has become so popular, and partly because compared to the other combinations, it is expensive to get into.
That's interesting. Why has sabre become so popular and how does that exactly affect the popularity of training rapier? Is it because the two weapons share similar techniques but one is much cheaper to get into?
As instructors we started teaching sabre around 2007/8, although with a history in ECW period hanger and basket hilt fighting stretching back to the mid 90's, it was a short jump on to it. Because we love sabre and teach and use it so much, that obviously influences the club.
Also the development of good training swords. In the early to mid 2000's there were very few suppliers. The Hanwei hutton sabre was about the only option, and it was poor. The increase in availability of sabres has helped encourage it.
Also the development and availability of firstly the Knightshop basket hilt, which effectively worked as a singlestick, sabre trainer, and then the Black Fencer synthetic sabres. The BF sabre is cheap, robust, and easy to get into. Sabre is also a easier system to learn than rapier.
Lastly costs. Indeed this is a major factor. A synthetic sabre is 1/5 the cost of a steel rapier, and is usually used solo, meaning no extra costs for companion weapons.
Honestly I would love to see rapier done more in the club, but since people have been spoiled with cheap and high quality BlackFencer products in the last couple of years, few want to stretch to buying rapiers now.
Give everybody without the ball a sword and I'd be much keener to watch soccer & football.
Nick Thomas I am from India there seems to be no HEMA clubs or schools that teach historical swordsmanship. What do I do? So far I've only been reading historical fencing manuels and practicing partner drills at home and most people from my area only have an intrest in aesthetic martial arts. Please give me some advice
Nikil Bellad
It might be simply not called HEMA as there is no one agreed upon name outside US and west Europe. And even in US and west Europe there is many, older, similar ideas/organisations.
Also name HEMA is quite new and just happen become popular on YT.
Czorńy Lisek I agree with you. No wonder I couldn't find any HEMA club or anyone having a particular interest for it. Let alone knowing what HEMA is. Anyway thanks for responding to comment I've been dying for someone to reply
can you modify HEMA?
do you want to teach non-westerners HEMA?
Modify it in what way?
Yes we encourage people all around the world to practice HEMA, and there are many non western clubs that already practice it. I know of clubs in China, Thailand and Turkey for example. An interest in a martial art need not be limited to the region that it began or was common. In fact in Britain we drew most of our sword styles from other nations anyway!
As someone with an interest in medievalism since I was a teenager in the 1990s, it has always struck me as odd that the SCA and other people interested either re-enacting the period or learning its martial arts tend so overwhelmingly to be irreligious. It would seem natural that the Catholic spirituality of the age would appeal to people attracted to the period in general, but in my experience, new agey neo-paganism or an active dislike of religion seems more typical. Personally, I'd find a HEMA club that was infused with the spirit of Christian chivalry that actually motivated the warriors of the era more of an attractive thing to be involved in. I'm interested whether this is more the case for the Poles and Spaniards that do HEMA in the UK, which you mention have a notable presence in the club.
In the UK, and Europe generally, there are very few followers of religion in HEMA. The vast majority are atheist or agnostic. But that is representative of the populations generally, so hardly surprising. The only place I see particularly religious people practicing HEMA and similar is the US. Where again, religion is a bigger deal. The US is also more interested in chivalry, with a very romantic vision of it.
Most HEMA is not about the chivalric arts anyway, but from the Renaissance and age of enlightment onwards. Of the rise of the middle classes who were the primary patrons of fencing schools. People who were not motivated or driven by religion, but of a means of defence and also sport. Move on to the era of military swordsmanship and once again, not a religious motivation. They were motivated by money, status, power and glory, depending on who you look at.
None of the Poles or Spaniards in our club are religious. In fact of our roughly 100 active members, I can only think of two that have any religious faith. One Christian and one Muslim.
OK. Fair enough. The UK sounds roughly like Australia: we've been a relatively godless place since colonial times. I suspect our HEMA clubs are roughly the same in this regard. I'd question whether chivalry in the broader sense wasn't representative of British martial arts in the Renaissance through Victorian eras though: C.S. Lewis was writing about the gentlemanly ideal of the British upper classes as a living tradition of chivalry around the time of the First World War, and he wrote an essay much commending it to men of all classes. The Arthurian romances and their code of honour also had a fairly strong influence on the Victorians, and I suspect Lewis was writing his essay on the tail end of this trend. The specifically Catholic manifestations of this tradition weren't especially influential, of course, but I get the sense that the ideals of chivalry didn't really die off in a significant way until the cultural revolution that swept the West in the late 1960s, or at least some time after the First World War. In that respect, the British manifestation of the chivalric tradition seems like it might have played a role in historical British martial arts something like the role of Buddhist and Taoist spirituality in the East Asian martial arts, even if it has become more or less extinct in the present age. Just a thought.
First