I was a vocal opponent of the tech level system since the very beginning. The big problem is that ships get stronger the farther up the tree they get to the point that higher tech ships are just exponentially more powerful than their lower tier counterparts. The only saving grace we have is the faction ships which are independent of tech level. Had a friend of mine join not even a month ago…I put him into a daredevil and now he’s off to the races getting 1B kill mails. Unfortunately, not all new players have the benefit of having a in game rich benefactor. Glad you decided to touch on this subject. I wouldn’t mind a good rant from you on rigs.
The tech level was a great system at the start to keep everyone on the same playing field, now it’s just a limitation to new people that doesn’t really serve a purpose other than to make it harder to retain new players. Nobody wants to keep playing when they keep getting wrecked in entirely lopsided matches, I had two caracals jump me a while back and they barely scratched me because it was brand new players who had the shit luck of a 5/5/5 prophecy rolling through 😂 if they had at least be able to fly BCs with their skills they would’ve had at least a chance of survival They do need to finish adding the T10 ships though, there’s no reason the BC mains can’t have T10 equivalents of their DPS ships.
Exactly what Vasco said. That's the real problem. NetEase created a linear progression tech tree with an end game. An Eve game should never have a linear end game style of progression.
I agree, it served a purpose in the very beginning. Now, 3yrs later, it only serves to cripple new players. IMHO, they should switch to a minimum skill requirement for the ships. Like Battlship lvl1 for t9 BBs, LvL5 for t10 etc. But Def not the full tech tree requirements like Eve O.
I think a good solution to this problem would be to take the ships out of the Tech level gate system. All ships would be available at the start of the game. Then each ship would have 4 different skill attributes that would affect the ship's performance instead of the current 2. But the skills themselves would be gated by Tech level so that as the player progresses through Tech level they unlock better utility out of each ship. In this way even low Tech ships would have viability at higher Tech levels.
this was the video i needed, i started eve echoes 2 months ago, after one month i started eve online, played both as a new player. i could not decide what game would be a better fit for me. i love the amarr Apocalypse. in eve online i can fly it in a short amount of time, in eve echoes i have to wait fu*king moths to only be able to fly it. But on the other hand eve online is more complex, consuming more time, and i have to play on my pc only. eve eachos can i play where ever i want to, have it in my pocket with me, and can hop in for 10 mins if i want to. even with the new 15 inch samsung tablet coming out it is amazing. BUT i dont have to wait till this year ends so i can fly whenever i want. Then on the other hand again in eve online everything looks better. i can blow up structures in normal missions etc. more to explore like WH and its a better spacy feeling while playing. in eve echoes i have to zoom out, rarely see the ships or cool looking environments because i sit in an anomaly about 60km away and all is looking to small. i REALY love and hate both eve online and echoes and currently playing both because i can’t DECIDE where to put my time into…. if eve echoes had the same ship tree and skill tree like EO i would definitely play echoes
EO is 19 years old, while EE isnt even 2 yet. I still find EE to be the best MMo on a handheld. Best depth, funniest community, and easy to learn. Tech levels in my opinion are to prevent people from quickly making Alts that can bot content and screw up the game and economy. It's free. And very possible to earn your omega with in game work. It gets easier with time for sure and that's how it should be. People shouldn't be allowed to fly a BS within months and solo grind T10 anoms nearly afk. It would ruin the game. EO it isn't such a problem as the economy has been established for a long long time and isn't so prone to players grinding Pve content and flooding the market with stuff. Let's just hope for more and better updates. And that requires some level of support from us. Even though I can grind plex to pay for omega. I buy 2 omega for my main and Alt every month. Just in hopes it will make the game a bit better.
Didn't touch on how the tech level system also impacts industry, everyone wants to fly higher tier ships so the demand for lower tier ones is next to non-existent but you can't craft higher tier ships until you reach a higher tier and there is basically no isk in making lower tier ones anymore because the demand is so low. Look at incoming new players and you'll find that you have a ton of combat pilots, a handful of miners, and almost no industry crafting folks because those people just don't have content early.
Been saying this since month 2 or 3 of the game. They should've copied the EO tech tree, then ran with it from there. Instead, they fixed what was NOT broken. When the foundation is cracked, the house will eventually crumble. I had what fun I could from this game and while that lasted it was good. That time ended for me months ago. I don't recall the last time I played.
When i saw the ship tree first time i immediately remember a system of a game called modern combat 5 it was first person perspective shooter game you start as basic soldier and you can chose different class to invest in sniper assault heavy recon medic the problem with this system was the same as the Eve echo tech system the more you play the more xp you get the better the gun but there was a limit as after spending about more than 1500hrs on the game i was best medic in every match i knew every tactic of map i had freaking shoulder gun that used to rip of any ememy and soon i became bored because if i wanted to become a sniper i had to reskill into the guns Armour scopes it was frustrating but eve is diverse in every way all pilots are different and currently the skill system is only say HAH he got here before you so you'll lose and i hate it i love the Eve online ship tree we definitely need it in echoes benzi help us get it
MC5 reference :D I very much used to enjoy that game too...very good example of an alternate skill/ship tree setup. Of course now I can't help but think of my condor as the Bosk now 😆
I agree that EvE Online has the better system. But I do think that for a mobile game such a system is too complicated and would scare off players. There would certainly be better ways for EvE Echoes, like basic variants once you hit a certain point and then get more specialised versions later.
I wish people would stop assuming a mobile game has to be dumbed down. This is why 99.99% of games on the play stores are piles of cash-grabbing trash.
Sir this was the very reason why i asked the question in dev qna in last week of December about the slow and absurdly high amount of time for levelling up. Thing is you need omega to sustain yourself in the game. Now this only benefits those who are in the game for a long time or those who can spend money. But Plex prices just rise everyday. Don't the developers want to grow their game? Or do they need to cater to only the old players? Also as for the high tier vs low tier ship system, imagine the Maller interdictor at level 10 and the maller at 6. Both have similar high slots, just a difference of rigs and some defensive stats. Otherwise both would do the same amount of damage, won't they? But thing is which one can tank long enough and that's the t10 version. The DIR reflection wargames was the biggest example of bigger = better. Battleships were meta. You can't use cruisers. 13:07 sir you know the game Pokemon Go? Well, earlier its Max level was 40, but now they extended it to 50. But instead of quitting the game, people became more competitive and took more interest. You know why? Because levels in the game do not have any restrictions, nor is the game p2w where you need to pay to progress. This is not a good game sir where you have to pay or grind a lot in a player controlled market.
I definitely agree the EO system seems to get players into the ships they're excited about without a lot of useless wait. Yes, there is a learning curve and you may miss that without the gated tech tier system but some lessons are best learned hard. It'd be interesting to see if as the game ages we adopt a more similar to EO structure because it removes that unnecessary catch up mechanic.
Something I felt was really beneficial was nanocores and integrated rigs. Initially I was put off by them, they seemed like cash grabs for the very rich, but what I have found is instead they enable a huge amount of versatility to my builds and what can be achieved. What would be interesting is if they had something similar to nanocores or integrated rigs that just change your base ship, so for example instead of having cov-ops ships, 'can equip cov ops cloak' was a rig or nanocore trait you could add to any ship.
When you switched to EVE Online your voice sounded like you were inside an empty space station. Appropriate :) Tech levels in Echoes are a bummer to new players. In EO things flow much more naturally and since you first install the game you are able to craft a plan on what you wish to skill into. It also throws into the mix a lot of specializations factionwise but I think this would be too much to add to a mobile game. Anyway the ship tree in EO looks much more straightforward than to wait a year for what you wish to happen actually does happen. I'd like to see much more EO content in your channel. Just don't do like some other EO youtubers that take 1h30m to explain something they could well do in 30m. Or instead if a subject is too complex, try to make smaller videos focusing on this and that detail as it makes it easier to find later on if needed. Believe me it's a pain to watch some EO tutorials specially when you're a beginner.
it's as if the different versions of the ship being unlocked at higher tech levels make it have higher stats. That's why a tech 5 cruiser, although more original and suited for combat can't compete in the tech 10 department of ships. Im gonna give the example of caldari ships, being a missile pilot myself, if you are more suited to flying missile cruisers, u go till tech 5, fly caracal, tech 6, CNI, and so on, and u get a ship that isnt suited for combat at the higher tech levels, but the original combate suited ships are too weak, due to their low tech levels, to perform well at that level compared to other tech 10 ships.
Great video, and I 100% agree with you on this. As far as one of the “pros” of the Tech system, it gives players a chance to lose inexpensive ships and learn the game before they get their dream ship and dump tons of ISK into fittings. Even then, this doesn’t necessarily work. We had a Catskull pilot lose a 10b Macherial solo ratting the other day because they chose to not dock up when an interceptor fleet was coming. It’s a bad system, and they should do a rework to fix it.
@@captainbenzie it becomes a matter of explaining how they can still gate certain content with omega, as that will always be part of their business model.
@Captain Benzie then it's a matter of them accepting thats the better way, and coding the game to operate that way. Which is way out of my depth. Let's hope they see the light.
I really find the eve online skill system so confusing, and difficult to read. Eve echoes is simplified and is easier to understand and is easier to see on a phone screen... I don't think we need more tech levels is EE (i really think the time it took was in place so they could have longer to work on balance and other systems before they became more of an issue). i just find the skill setup in EO to be spaghetti. I tried EO for just over a month before i heard of the first open beta for EE, my impression was if this was simplified and put on a phone I'd play it, but as a PC game it's too much complexity without what felt like a compelling reason to spend my very little at home time playing it. A phone game fits better into spare bits of time while I'm away from home and EE feels good to play in those gaps
Exactly Eve Online is worse than having a second job and no life. I spent years and thousands upon thousands of hours in Eve Online but left that game in November of 2019 and have not gone back. I have been in Eve Echoes since testing began. EE has a lot of things right but I agree the tech level progression is a real hinderance to get new players in the game. Fly safe o7.
@@ZildjianMan30 i would say its far better than it used to be when the game was first released my god the game back then was complicated now i would say they have dont alot of work streamling it and of course thier is more that they can do but thats what updates are for
@@boundtodie I as a former EO player tried going back recently. I was utterly lost. There is A LOT more content to the skill tree. Too much. That creates a complication.
@@ZildjianMan30 i have only returned back to eo after been away for 4 years and i love the changes they have made easier to keep track of mission far easier to acsess content it just take a little time to get used to the new ui and systems
I tried, i really tried but can't agree MORE. The level system is mass. Since the beginning I want to do only one thing, but higher I reach more time I have to spend in ships I don't want to fly but I have to, because I don't have much options. I started as a miner, so this wasn't a problem, but now I really appreciate a pvp content and I can see how this tree is problematic. Good content o7
@@captainbenzie for sure! But as a beginner you don't complain about it because you are starting the game. This was what happened to me back in these days. Now yeah, i agree, mining is affected by this lack to.
I 100% agree with all your points. However the more pressing issue I have with EE is the constant medling with the economy. There really isnt a player driven economy, I played EO years ago. EO really was a player driven economy, not sure if its still the same. In the 10 months that I played EE the economy was turned on its head too many times due to dev medling, and the insurance system, although really nice if you just want to PVP is horrible for the player driven economy.
about the fact that it takes 1 year or more to fly a t10 ship,i'ma tell you my experience discovered game 1 week before global launch,brought basic omage 2 weeks into the game and always had it active,brought a chip at around t8... and i am still 2 months away from t10 :|
Oh boy I was ever suggested on discord to remove tech lvl system after 70% of active playerbase reached T10, I hope there will be better related suggestion
I was literally arguing with a friend of mine yesterday about tech level and how it's so wrong and killing players! Especially those casuals and those who want to put their hands on bigger stuff quicker
Dang it Benzie, now you got me wanting to reinstall and start over in EO lolz. You perfectly showed how elegant the skill tree in EO is and works. There is a small tech tree in EO that goes up to Tech III for all ships and modules.
The tech level system was a way to gate off unfinished content. It takes a year to unlock battleships because it gave the developers an extra year to fix/balance the rest of the game early in its lifespan. Now that the game has matured the tech level system is no longer required and an active impediment to new players joining. (It would be nice if skills were reworked too. Why do my skills in medium missiles not have any utility when using large missiles? Drones have a separate all-encompassing skill not related to drone size; other weapons should too.)
@@captainbenzie exactly. They did not spend the time people were slowly reaching higher tech levels (6 months to a year) to balance that new content, but rather they used it to address issues with the rest of the game that was accessible. It gave them breathing room. Had all ships been accessible at the start then things would have been a lot more chaotic and retention would have dropped due to a perception of poor balance and lots of bugs. The tech level system was a staged content release mechanism. Now that things are stabilised it is no longer needed and can be replaced with something more befitting a sandbox (like the Eve Online approach you discuss). O7
Benzie, this video is a perfect way to explain this pain. Also help me understand why some ships available for alphas, aren't entirely useful. Meaning like an interdictor, fantastic knowing you get a ship capable of doing some interesting things EWar wise. To a new player getting able to fly one is amazing, but you find that it's useless. You can't use it to full abilities because you need to be an omega for it to make a difference in your combat style and overall love of the game. Any other Ewar for an alpha becomes squishy and practically fall apart.
I've been struggling with this game lately and wanting to play. We used to get cool events like the Halloween event we had the first year. Now everything is a slot machine style money grab. I imagine for new players it's got to be even worse wanting to try to stick around because everyone is flying Battleships pretty much, and you just can't really compete for months in PVP in any meaningful way. Pretty frustrated with where the game is right now. So much potential just getting flushed with bad priorities.
I somewhat agree with your analysis. However, just because you have unlocked a ship doesn't mean you can fly it well. I have seen a low sp fbs pilot get whelped in a t9 anom that my higher skilled mega can solo brawl.
I was thinking, off topic, about a miner at or below a venture trainer, or just a rework on a venture trainer- where the signal radius is harder to scan but a smaller ore hold, for those harder to acquire ore and minerals. Allowing lower level players a chance to get and build, but as with most things it might be exploitable- ie the spam bot mining that plagued the begining of echoes. You could mine- as i've seen some in like a magnate and an imicus etc. It's gonna be interesting how they approach any of the mining industry section, but this has been thrown around as an idea with my real life freinds in discussions, i know its not perfect but thought i'd throw the idea out into space- haha pun 😅. I love echeos cause tech ten doesn't necessarily mean end game- as i've been destroyed by tiny ships in a giant behemoth. Wich is fantastic cause a lower person can effectively prey apon a larger wich is such a great mechanic cause no one can make a single god character like skyrim- cause this is heavy to some regards to and on rpg elements, but i really hope they keep checks and balances in place how they have been doing them in the most part. The beauty in echoes is how- maybe you gripped like i did heavily on scanning coming out, or how plex is affected, but as the game goes on, and you have a chance to play with mechanics and tweek and develop new strategies and discuss with friends and corp alliance freindlies. You can flesh out boundies and strengths and possibilities. I've seen some obscure little fleets that work very very well synergistically working very well. Theres such a line and i enjoy how eve is making their line, and i feel they do listen to their player base, and are working on making enjoyable content. This is my longest ass post, so sorry for the book. Please keep the content up, i love these discussions and outlooks
This isn't the first time you've pointed this out Captain. I remember making a comment to you a long time ago, suggesting a skill point cap. Said it then and I'll say it again. Everyone hates or will hate that idea tho.
How many of you have suggested this to the devs in the discord? because for one, if we suggest it, it would be good to post it in the reddit so it can be upvoted, and for two, if enough of us suggest it maybe it will be removed. ? but I think NE likes that you have to spend the plex to respec later in the game.
Wow i haven't played eve for about 8 years, i have around 150 ships in -4 Enderailen Caldarie space i think? the system is🤔 is it the same monthly fee to play? my pilot was -9 last time on, pirate
@@captainbenzie ok, thanks, it was around £11 or something back then< it looks like its changed a lot, Bolter Ripherknicker, was one of my accounts, im might pop on just to see how things have changed, but from your video" looks like for the worse🤔
I agree that EO tech tree aproach is better designed, but more complicated too. Tech levels in EE are meh, and I don't like power creep with them. I would rather see most powerful versions of ships combat-wise at lower tiers. These would be no brainer brawlers, like fleet issues etc. These are the ships beginners are looking to get into first. Then higher tier ships would be specialized versions, like guardians, logi, interdictors etc. But the first combat version should defeat the specialized ones in 1 on 1 battle. Then new players wouldn't feel that they get trampled because of their low level and wouldn't worry tiering up so much. They would look forward to more specialized ships, but wouldn't feel left behind. T7 assault frigate should wipe out t10 interceptor. Fact! :) Also missing rock/paper/scissor design with ships. Each ship class should dominate one below but be killed buy one above. And then frigs should kill battleships. Now it's just the bigger the better. Imagine if in Ratting battleships couldn't hit frigates at all. Suddenly cruisers and BCs would be more attractive. And DPS/Tank differences between the classes should come closer together. Maybe not 10x times diff between Frig and BS but 3x? hope to see more radical changes in April. Not +5% to all ship HP and +5% dps to all shps :) It might be scary to do radical changes, but it's so fun. So many discussion, discoveries to be had, videos to make... Game would just feel ALIVE and not stale. Do a test server to catch huge messups, fix them shortly if they slip through. I played a sad game once Modern War. It's was a mess every change they did brought something unexpected, people were furious but discussion were plenty, adaptation had to be made, opportunities sieged. Guess when me an most stopped playing? When they stopped messing up and just started copy pasting same events. Hope it doesn't happen to EE
I believe it would be better to only have the skilling, it is true that the tech level scares off people. More ships and needing skills to make them good would be cool.
This just makes me want to play EO over echoes but in my experience earning isk in echoes is simpler and echoes does some things that I like though a lot of features are vastly superior in EO
no amount of madness will make me to train 4 diifrent empire cruisers or every ship....i like the ee way as i dont have to train each empire ships.....eo and ee both should learn from each other
Hey Benzie. Wil also love to get back to Eve Online a bit again. Wil also prob start a new account. Wil love to see more EO content. Thanks for a good vid.
Played at launch to tech 7, so not an authority on the subject, but.... pay for months to get tech level, then they hook you for another year to fly the ship you like. At that point, you're not going to stop paying until you've had your fun with the new ship. Usually you can say customer experience is more important, but neteas/tencent are BS Chinese companies, this is how they operate.
I started a second Echoes account to play at work, and also to see what it was like to jump into the game F2P without having the advantage of getting in during the first week after launch. Holy. Shit. It's bad guys. You are HEAVILY curtailed from anything interesting unless you drop money. Which is fine. I actually mostly agree with Benzie on that topic. But even with Omega you're still shackled to the skill and tech tree system, which again prevents you from really enjoying most of what the game has to offer. Sure, there are things low skill point pilots can do to contribute to a corp, or even run around and explore solo. But it's blatantly obvious that the game is 100% designed and targeted at players of tech 10. And even if you pay for dual omega and all the growth funs and whatever else, you're still looking at months of investment to even really begin the best parts of the game. That's just deeply flawed, IMO.
Yeah Eve Online has a better System. But also why adding T10 Ships? If you Look at T9 frigs destroyers and cruisers there is no much Option. I think you would need a little bit of "taste" maybe also because if became T9 few weeks ago and it takes 180d to become T10. But there is way to less options in the lower teclevels
@@captainbenzie oh, vsauce is a channel about science and some science and math related stuff is represented there in a very special way. It's really fascinating and worth to have a look at. o7
I guess I don't think all these things are negatives. There's nothing wrong with making people wait for ship tiers in a game where many many people have multiple accounts. I consider the time you spent gain SP to be like gaining experience/time in service. Imagine you join a military and in just a few months your commanding a battleship.....you just don't have that experience needed. It keeps the amount of people purchasing a ton of stuff in the first day and having access to top tier ships so early. What's wrong with needing to earn it with time/SP? Sure people will respec skills but when your moving into BS or getting a Cov 2. Isk to buy plex isn't terrible and it keeps the market price of plex somewhat stable. Just my opinion. Also ask Ventume, how many many Stabbers he has lost in Deklein?
I kinda think they should do away with the tech tree probably. But I think it's a little to late for that because it would alienate the current player base.
Having to dump PLEX to reskill into battleships is the point. Netease designed tech levels this way on purpose. Honestly fed up with this shit company. Everything is a moneygrab.
I like the EE system in that you don't need to train caldari frigate cruiser and battleship in order to progress, having race specific stuff limits you somewhat if you want to swap playstyles for example. I do think some of the top end t10 ships are a bit overpowered as even my indy alt can sail through camps in a inty with no frigate skills.. Keep the tech levels system as is, but make intys need some frigate skills to use. Copy this across the tree and tier 10 should need expert level skills for the power it gives you. The longer training times will then level out between lower tech levels
I was a vocal opponent of the tech level system since the very beginning. The big problem is that ships get stronger the farther up the tree they get to the point that higher tech ships are just exponentially more powerful than their lower tier counterparts. The only saving grace we have is the faction ships which are independent of tech level. Had a friend of mine join not even a month ago…I put him into a daredevil and now he’s off to the races getting 1B kill mails. Unfortunately, not all new players have the benefit of having a in game rich benefactor. Glad you decided to touch on this subject. I wouldn’t mind a good rant from you on rigs.
The tech level was a great system at the start to keep everyone on the same playing field, now it’s just a limitation to new people that doesn’t really serve a purpose other than to make it harder to retain new players. Nobody wants to keep playing when they keep getting wrecked in entirely lopsided matches, I had two caracals jump me a while back and they barely scratched me because it was brand new players who had the shit luck of a 5/5/5 prophecy rolling through 😂 if they had at least be able to fly BCs with their skills they would’ve had at least a chance of survival
They do need to finish adding the T10 ships though, there’s no reason the BC mains can’t have T10 equivalents of their DPS ships.
The real issue is many ships are useless in a ceptor & battleship meta
Exactly what Vasco said. That's the real problem. NetEase created a linear progression tech tree with an end game. An Eve game should never have a linear end game style of progression.
I agree, it served a purpose in the very beginning.
Now, 3yrs later, it only serves to cripple new players.
IMHO, they should switch to a minimum skill requirement for the ships. Like Battlship lvl1 for t9 BBs, LvL5 for t10 etc. But Def not the full tech tree requirements like Eve O.
I think a good solution to this problem would be to take the ships out of the Tech level gate system. All ships would be available at the start of the game. Then each ship would have 4 different skill attributes that would affect the ship's performance instead of the current 2. But the skills themselves would be gated by Tech level so that as the player progresses through Tech level they unlock better utility out of each ship. In this way even low Tech ships would have viability at higher Tech levels.
this was the video i needed, i started eve echoes 2 months ago, after one month i started eve online, played both as a new player. i could not decide what game would be a better fit for me. i love the amarr Apocalypse. in eve online i can fly it in a short amount of time, in eve echoes i have to wait fu*king moths to only be able to fly it. But on the other hand eve online is more complex, consuming more time, and i have to play on my pc only. eve eachos can i play where ever i want to, have it in my pocket with me, and can hop in for 10 mins if i want to. even with the new 15 inch samsung tablet coming out it is amazing. BUT i dont have to wait till this year ends so i can fly whenever i want. Then on the other hand again in eve online everything looks better. i can blow up structures in normal missions etc. more to explore like WH and its a better spacy feeling while playing. in eve echoes i have to zoom out, rarely see the ships or cool looking environments because i sit in an anomaly about 60km away and all is looking to small. i REALY love and hate both eve online and echoes and currently playing both because i can’t DECIDE where to put my time into…. if eve echoes had the same ship tree and skill tree like EO i would definitely play echoes
EO is 19 years old, while EE isnt even 2 yet. I still find EE to be the best MMo on a handheld. Best depth, funniest community, and easy to learn.
Tech levels in my opinion are to prevent people from quickly making Alts that can bot content and screw up the game and economy. It's free. And very possible to earn your omega with in game work. It gets easier with time for sure and that's how it should be. People shouldn't be allowed to fly a BS within months and solo grind T10 anoms nearly afk. It would ruin the game. EO it isn't such a problem as the economy has been established for a long long time and isn't so prone to players grinding Pve content and flooding the market with stuff. Let's just hope for more and better updates. And that requires some level of support from us. Even though I can grind plex to pay for omega. I buy 2 omega for my main and Alt every month. Just in hopes it will make the game a bit better.
Didn't touch on how the tech level system also impacts industry, everyone wants to fly higher tier ships so the demand for lower tier ones is next to non-existent but you can't craft higher tier ships until you reach a higher tier and there is basically no isk in making lower tier ones anymore because the demand is so low. Look at incoming new players and you'll find that you have a ton of combat pilots, a handful of miners, and almost no industry crafting folks because those people just don't have content early.
Been saying this since month 2 or 3 of the game. They should've copied the EO tech tree, then ran with it from there. Instead, they fixed what was NOT broken. When the foundation is cracked, the house will eventually crumble. I had what fun I could from this game and while that lasted it was good. That time ended for me months ago. I don't recall the last time I played.
@Captain Benzie Major changes are needed. And I'm saying that as a long time tech 10 player (when I did play).
When i saw the ship tree first time i immediately remember a system of a game called modern combat 5 it was first person perspective shooter game you start as basic soldier and you can chose different class to invest in sniper assault heavy recon medic the problem with this system was the same as the Eve echo tech system the more you play the more xp you get the better the gun but there was a limit as after spending about more than 1500hrs on the game i was best medic in every match i knew every tactic of map i had freaking shoulder gun that used to rip of any ememy and soon i became bored because if i wanted to become a sniper i had to reskill into the guns Armour scopes it was frustrating but eve is diverse in every way all pilots are different and currently the skill system is only say HAH he got here before you so you'll lose and i hate it i love the Eve online ship tree we definitely need it in echoes benzi help us get it
MC5 reference :D I very much used to enjoy that game too...very good example of an alternate skill/ship tree setup.
Of course now I can't help but think of my condor as the Bosk now 😆
They need to fill out the lower tech levels instead of pumping new ships into tech 10.
I agree that EvE Online has the better system.
But I do think that for a mobile game such a system is too complicated and would scare off players.
There would certainly be better ways for EvE Echoes, like basic variants once you hit a certain point and then get more specialised versions later.
I wish people would stop assuming a mobile game has to be dumbed down. This is why 99.99% of games on the play stores are piles of cash-grabbing trash.
Compared to other mobiles games EE is very sophisticated as is EO compared to other PC games. Hope it stays that way.
Sir this was the very reason why i asked the question in dev qna in last week of December about the slow and absurdly high amount of time for levelling up.
Thing is you need omega to sustain yourself in the game. Now this only benefits those who are in the game for a long time or those who can spend money. But Plex prices just rise everyday. Don't the developers want to grow their game? Or do they need to cater to only the old players?
Also as for the high tier vs low tier ship system, imagine the Maller interdictor at level 10 and the maller at 6. Both have similar high slots, just a difference of rigs and some defensive stats. Otherwise both would do the same amount of damage, won't they? But thing is which one can tank long enough and that's the t10 version.
The DIR reflection wargames was the biggest example of bigger = better. Battleships were meta. You can't use cruisers.
13:07 sir you know the game Pokemon Go? Well, earlier its Max level was 40, but now they extended it to 50. But instead of quitting the game, people became more competitive and took more interest. You know why? Because levels in the game do not have any restrictions, nor is the game p2w where you need to pay to progress. This is not a good game sir where you have to pay or grind a lot in a player controlled market.
Im confused, im currently t7 grinding close to a mach, does this mean I can't unlock the BS skills even when flying a mach?
I definitely agree the EO system seems to get players into the ships they're excited about without a lot of useless wait. Yes, there is a learning curve and you may miss that without the gated tech tier system but some lessons are best learned hard. It'd be interesting to see if as the game ages we adopt a more similar to EO structure because it removes that unnecessary catch up mechanic.
"Aupplause like a madmn with tears"
Devs! I think he's right...
And, capt i agree 100 percent 👌
Something I felt was really beneficial was nanocores and integrated rigs. Initially I was put off by them, they seemed like cash grabs for the very rich, but what I have found is instead they enable a huge amount of versatility to my builds and what can be achieved.
What would be interesting is if they had something similar to nanocores or integrated rigs that just change your base ship, so for example instead of having cov-ops ships, 'can equip cov ops cloak' was a rig or nanocore trait you could add to any ship.
When you switched to EVE Online your voice sounded like you were inside an empty space station. Appropriate :) Tech levels in Echoes are a bummer to new players. In EO things flow much more naturally and since you first install the game you are able to craft a plan on what you wish to skill into. It also throws into the mix a lot of specializations factionwise but I think this would be too much to add to a mobile game. Anyway the ship tree in EO looks much more straightforward than to wait a year for what you wish to happen actually does happen.
I'd like to see much more EO content in your channel. Just don't do like some other EO youtubers that take 1h30m to explain something they could well do in 30m. Or instead if a subject is too complex, try to make smaller videos focusing on this and that detail as it makes it easier to find later on if needed. Believe me it's a pain to watch some EO tutorials specially when you're a beginner.
it's as if the different versions of the ship being unlocked at higher tech levels make it have higher stats. That's why a tech 5 cruiser, although more original and suited for combat can't compete in the tech 10 department of ships. Im gonna give the example of caldari ships, being a missile pilot myself, if you are more suited to flying missile cruisers, u go till tech 5, fly caracal, tech 6, CNI, and so on, and u get a ship that isnt suited for combat at the higher tech levels, but the original combate suited ships are too weak, due to their low tech levels, to perform well at that level compared to other tech 10 ships.
Great video, and I 100% agree with you on this. As far as one of the “pros” of the Tech system, it gives players a chance to lose inexpensive ships and learn the game before they get their dream ship and dump tons of ISK into fittings.
Even then, this doesn’t necessarily work. We had a Catskull pilot lose a 10b Macherial solo ratting the other day because they chose to not dock up when an interceptor fleet was coming.
It’s a bad system, and they should do a rework to fix it.
Totally agree with you on the gated garbage that the tech tree really is.
@Captain Benzie it can be 'as complex' without the racial skill hold outs. As there are 3 levels of every skills.
@@captainbenzie it becomes a matter of explaining how they can still gate certain content with omega, as that will always be part of their business model.
@Captain Benzie then it's a matter of them accepting thats the better way, and coding the game to operate that way. Which is way out of my depth. Let's hope they see the light.
Of course I am going to give a like for my fellow Matari
I really find the eve online skill system so confusing, and difficult to read. Eve echoes is simplified and is easier to understand and is easier to see on a phone screen... I don't think we need more tech levels is EE (i really think the time it took was in place so they could have longer to work on balance and other systems before they became more of an issue). i just find the skill setup in EO to be spaghetti. I tried EO for just over a month before i heard of the first open beta for EE, my impression was if this was simplified and put on a phone I'd play it, but as a PC game it's too much complexity without what felt like a compelling reason to spend my very little at home time playing it. A phone game fits better into spare bits of time while I'm away from home and EE feels good to play in those gaps
Exactly Eve Online is worse than having a second job and no life. I spent years and thousands upon thousands of hours in Eve Online but left that game in November of 2019 and have not gone back. I have been in Eve Echoes since testing began. EE has a lot of things right but I agree the tech level progression is a real hinderance to get new players in the game. Fly safe o7.
EO tech tree, and skill tree, are confusing because the game has over 20 years of updates. It became overly complicated over time.
@@ZildjianMan30 i would say its far better than it used to be when the game was first released my god the game back then was complicated now i would say they have dont alot of work streamling it and of course thier is more that they can do but thats what updates are for
@@boundtodie I as a former EO player tried going back recently. I was utterly lost. There is A LOT more content to the skill tree. Too much. That creates a complication.
@@ZildjianMan30 i have only returned back to eo after been away for 4 years and i love the changes they have made easier to keep track of mission far easier to acsess content it just take a little time to get used to the new ui and systems
I tried, i really tried but can't agree MORE.
The level system is mass. Since the beginning I want to do only one thing, but higher I reach more time I have to spend in ships I don't want to fly but I have to, because I don't have much options.
I started as a miner, so this wasn't a problem, but now I really appreciate a pvp content and I can see how this tree is problematic.
Good content o7
@@captainbenzie for sure! But as a beginner you don't complain about it because you are starting the game. This was what happened to me back in these days.
Now yeah, i agree, mining is affected by this lack to.
In EO you can fly a battleship without omega?
That's great!
I 100% agree with all your points. However the more pressing issue I have with EE is the constant medling with the economy. There really isnt a player driven economy, I played EO years ago. EO really was a player driven economy, not sure if its still the same. In the 10 months that I played EE the economy was turned on its head too many times due to dev medling, and the insurance system, although really nice if you just want to PVP is horrible for the player driven economy.
about the fact that it takes 1 year or more to fly a t10 ship,i'ma tell you my experience
discovered game 1 week before global launch,brought basic omage 2 weeks into the game and always had it active,brought a chip at around t8...
and i am still 2 months away from t10 :|
Ya, those skill chips are a waste of money if purchased late on your account. Return of investment begins day 1of your account.
Oh boy I was ever suggested on discord to remove tech lvl system after 70% of active playerbase reached T10, I hope there will be better related suggestion
I was literally arguing with a friend of mine yesterday about tech level and how it's so wrong and killing players! Especially those casuals and those who want to put their hands on bigger stuff quicker
Yeah I hated waiting for the stabber 2 and cyclone 2 cammand
Dang it Benzie, now you got me wanting to reinstall and start over in EO lolz. You perfectly showed how elegant the skill tree in EO is and works. There is a small tech tree in EO that goes up to Tech III for all ships and modules.
@@captainbenzie
Agreed 100%
My biggest issue with tech levels is that you can't speed it up beyond increasing the money spend on the game
The tech level system was a way to gate off unfinished content. It takes a year to unlock battleships because it gave the developers an extra year to fix/balance the rest of the game early in its lifespan. Now that the game has matured the tech level system is no longer required and an active impediment to new players joining.
(It would be nice if skills were reworked too. Why do my skills in medium missiles not have any utility when using large missiles? Drones have a separate all-encompassing skill not related to drone size; other weapons should too.)
@@captainbenzie exactly. They did not spend the time people were slowly reaching higher tech levels (6 months to a year) to balance that new content, but rather they used it to address issues with the rest of the game that was accessible. It gave them breathing room. Had all ships been accessible at the start then things would have been a lot more chaotic and retention would have dropped due to a perception of poor balance and lots of bugs. The tech level system was a staged content release mechanism. Now that things are stabilised it is no longer needed and can be replaced with something more befitting a sandbox (like the Eve Online approach you discuss). O7
Benzie, this video is a perfect way to explain this pain. Also help me understand why some ships available for alphas, aren't entirely useful. Meaning like an interdictor, fantastic knowing you get a ship capable of doing some interesting things EWar wise. To a new player getting able to fly one is amazing, but you find that it's useless. You can't use it to full abilities because you need to be an omega for it to make a difference in your combat style and overall love of the game. Any other Ewar for an alpha becomes squishy and practically fall apart.
I'm more prefere EO skill system then EE skil point tech lvl system
I've been struggling with this game lately and wanting to play. We used to get cool events like the Halloween event we had the first year. Now everything is a slot machine style money grab. I imagine for new players it's got to be even worse wanting to try to stick around because everyone is flying Battleships pretty much, and you just can't really compete for months in PVP in any meaningful way. Pretty frustrated with where the game is right now. So much potential just getting flushed with bad priorities.
I somewhat agree with your analysis. However, just because you have unlocked a ship doesn't mean you can fly it well. I have seen a low sp fbs pilot get whelped in a t9 anom that my higher skilled mega can solo brawl.
I was thinking, off topic, about a miner at or below a venture trainer, or just a rework on a venture trainer- where the signal radius is harder to scan but a smaller ore hold, for those harder to acquire ore and minerals. Allowing lower level players a chance to get and build, but as with most things it might be exploitable- ie the spam bot mining that plagued the begining of echoes. You could mine- as i've seen some in like a magnate and an imicus etc. It's gonna be interesting how they approach any of the mining industry section, but this has been thrown around as an idea with my real life freinds in discussions, i know its not perfect but thought i'd throw the idea out into space- haha pun 😅. I love echeos cause tech ten doesn't necessarily mean end game- as i've been destroyed by tiny ships in a giant behemoth. Wich is fantastic cause a lower person can effectively prey apon a larger wich is such a great mechanic cause no one can make a single god character like skyrim- cause this is heavy to some regards to and on rpg elements, but i really hope they keep checks and balances in place how they have been doing them in the most part. The beauty in echoes is how- maybe you gripped like i did heavily on scanning coming out, or how plex is affected, but as the game goes on, and you have a chance to play with mechanics and tweek and develop new strategies and discuss with friends and corp alliance freindlies. You can flesh out boundies and strengths and possibilities. I've seen some obscure little fleets that work very very well synergistically working very well. Theres such a line and i enjoy how eve is making their line, and i feel they do listen to their player base, and are working on making enjoyable content. This is my longest ass post, so sorry for the book. Please keep the content up, i love these discussions and outlooks
This isn't the first time you've pointed this out Captain. I remember making a comment to you a long time ago, suggesting a skill point cap. Said it then and I'll say it again. Everyone hates or will hate that idea tho.
Cynabal&Daredevil pilot : what is that?
Moving to Eve online is a good move :) I moved there from eve echoes and I have a great time :)
How many of you have suggested this to the devs in the discord? because for one, if we suggest it, it would be good to post it in the reddit so it can be upvoted, and for two, if enough of us suggest it maybe it will be removed. ? but I think NE likes that you have to spend the plex to respec later in the game.
Wow i haven't played eve for about 8 years, i have around 150 ships in -4 Enderailen Caldarie space i think? the system is🤔 is it the same monthly fee to play? my pilot was -9 last time on, pirate
@@captainbenzie ok, thanks, it was around £11 or something back then< it looks like its changed a lot, Bolter Ripherknicker, was one of my accounts, im might pop on just to see how things have changed, but from your video" looks like for the worse🤔
I agree that EO tech tree aproach is better designed, but more complicated too. Tech levels in EE are meh, and I don't like power creep with them. I would rather see most powerful versions of ships combat-wise at lower tiers. These would be no brainer brawlers, like fleet issues etc. These are the ships beginners are looking to get into first. Then higher tier ships would be specialized versions, like guardians, logi, interdictors etc. But the first combat version should defeat the specialized ones in 1 on 1 battle. Then new players wouldn't feel that they get trampled because of their low level and wouldn't worry tiering up so much. They would look forward to more specialized ships, but wouldn't feel left behind.
T7 assault frigate should wipe out t10 interceptor. Fact! :)
Also missing rock/paper/scissor design with ships. Each ship class should dominate one below but be killed buy one above. And then frigs should kill battleships. Now it's just the bigger the better. Imagine if in Ratting battleships couldn't hit frigates at all. Suddenly cruisers and BCs would be more attractive. And DPS/Tank differences between the classes should come closer together. Maybe not 10x times diff between Frig and BS but 3x?
hope to see more radical changes in April. Not +5% to all ship HP and +5% dps to all shps :) It might be scary to do radical changes, but it's so fun. So many discussion, discoveries to be had, videos to make... Game would just feel ALIVE and not stale. Do a test server to catch huge messups, fix them shortly if they slip through.
I played a sad game once Modern War. It's was a mess every change they did brought something unexpected, people were furious but discussion were plenty, adaptation had to be made, opportunities sieged. Guess when me an most stopped playing? When they stopped messing up and just started copy pasting same events. Hope it doesn't happen to EE
"Well make this simplified for mobile, lets just make the players reskill at T9. See, not so hard at all."
Ghosts from the past are telling the truth. We need more Fire Power.
I believe it would be better to only have the skilling, it is true that the tech level scares off people. More ships and needing skills to make them good would be cool.
@@captainbenzie understandable, didn't think about that side of the coin, so then maybe shorter "charge" times?
This just makes me want to play EO over echoes but in my experience earning isk in echoes is simpler and echoes does some things that I like though a lot of features are vastly superior in EO
no amount of madness will make me to train 4 diifrent empire cruisers or every ship....i like the ee way as i dont have to train each empire ships.....eo and ee both should learn from each other
You can fly most ships in EO without much training. Flying them effectively however..........
My EO characters are 10 years old.
Hey Benzie. Wil also love to get back to Eve Online a bit again. Wil also prob start a new account. Wil love to see more EO content. Thanks for a good vid.
Played at launch to tech 7, so not an authority on the subject, but.... pay for months to get tech level, then they hook you for another year to fly the ship you like. At that point, you're not going to stop paying until you've had your fun with the new ship. Usually you can say customer experience is more important, but neteas/tencent are BS Chinese companies, this is how they operate.
Sadly true...
I started a second Echoes account to play at work, and also to see what it was like to jump into the game F2P without having the advantage of getting in during the first week after launch.
Holy. Shit. It's bad guys. You are HEAVILY curtailed from anything interesting unless you drop money. Which is fine. I actually mostly agree with Benzie on that topic. But even with Omega you're still shackled to the skill and tech tree system, which again prevents you from really enjoying most of what the game has to offer.
Sure, there are things low skill point pilots can do to contribute to a corp, or even run around and explore solo. But it's blatantly obvious that the game is 100% designed and targeted at players of tech 10. And even if you pay for dual omega and all the growth funs and whatever else, you're still looking at months of investment to even really begin the best parts of the game. That's just deeply flawed, IMO.
@@captainbenzie Agreed. It needs an overhaul.
I'll be tech 10 by my 45th birthday I'm now 25
What's with all the new items added without detailed info on how to use them.
i’m back in new eden i’m t7 and have a lot of waiting and grinding to get plex and and omega
Yeah Eve Online has a better System. But also why adding T10 Ships? If you Look at T9 frigs destroyers and cruisers there is no much Option. I think you would need a little bit of "taste" maybe also because if became T9 few weeks ago and it takes 180d to become T10. But there is way to less options in the lower teclevels
Sometimes you sound like Michael from vsauce. that's a compliment :)
@@captainbenzie oh, vsauce is a channel about science and some science and math related stuff is represented there in a very special way. It's really fascinating and worth to have a look at. o7
I guess I don't think all these things are negatives. There's nothing wrong with making people wait for ship tiers in a game where many many people have multiple accounts.
I consider the time you spent gain SP to be like gaining experience/time in service. Imagine you join a military and in just a few months your commanding a battleship.....you just don't have that experience needed. It keeps the amount of people purchasing a ton of stuff in the first day and having access to top tier ships so early. What's wrong with needing to earn it with time/SP? Sure people will respec skills but when your moving into BS or getting a Cov 2. Isk to buy plex isn't terrible and it keeps the market price of plex somewhat stable. Just my opinion.
Also ask Ventume, how many many Stabbers he has lost in Deklein?
I kinda think they should do away with the tech tree probably. But I think it's a little to late for that because it would alienate the current player base.
Been saying this from the beginning, it goes against what EVE is
Having to dump PLEX to reskill into battleships is the point. Netease designed tech levels this way on purpose.
Honestly fed up with this shit company. Everything is a moneygrab.
I like the EE system in that you don't need to train caldari frigate cruiser and battleship in order to progress, having race specific stuff limits you somewhat if you want to swap playstyles for example.
I do think some of the top end t10 ships are a bit overpowered as even my indy alt can sail through camps in a inty with no frigate skills..
Keep the tech levels system as is, but make intys need some frigate skills to use. Copy this across the tree and tier 10 should need expert level skills for the power it gives you. The longer training times will then level out between lower tech levels
I see Eve has gone from a bad system, to a worse system, to a down right terrible system...
Captain Benzie a year and a half late to the party.
agreed
First