What is the Ideal Listening Room?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- We talk with Matthew Poes and Don Dunn regarding what the ideal listening room is for best sound. Does one exist? Are there certain things one should do to ensure the best performance during the design phase? Do experts agree on what the target room goal should be? Find out the answer by watching this video!
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As a follow up to the theory of Room Correction, I wish Audioholics would do a series called, "Pimp my Home Theatre." Instead of talking about expensive custom built rooms, let's have a team of experts get the best results from an "average" home theatre. My biggest take away from the series, you can spend a ton of money on a room, hired a guru to tune it and still not get the sound you like. I found Anthony and Matthew to be brilliant.
Matthew Poes is a good presenter. He knows how to deliver and make a point very clearly.
The ideal listening room is the one where no one comes in and interrupts at the best part!
Thank you for this excellent, educational video on room acoustics. I've learned a lot about home theater and room acoustics from these videos. My home theater is in an open concept living room that opens to the kitchen and main entry way, small room by standards. After an extensive discussion with my wife I was able to treat the first and 2nd reflection points on the right wall, and the front wall. With these room treatments, plus the couches, a thick rug, and a thick curtain on the back wall, I was able to achieve an RTA-Decay of 300ms-400ms from 100Hz to 11,500Hz and 250ms from 11,500Hz to 20,000Hz. I run 4 subs in my 5.4.2 system and my system sounds awesome. I've learned to accept the limitations of my room and I'm enjoying my system.
Great talk, educational
Matthew is the “man” and I agree with Don about how much disclosure about sound that I have never heard before being in the industry and I realize what he his talking about about “reality” with a client. So much time has to be spent to educate before you can really do something assuming they have some money for it or if they even care.... The format is great. I love Matthew. He is a wealth of information.
Gene - When can we call you the “godfather”.
The “Genfather”?
I don’t know? This group is amazing - keep it up!
Hey guys thanks for the knowledge! I am doing a rebuild for my media room and have watched all your segments, studied them many times. My Klipschorn based Cornwall center and Klipsch rear channels to be. My Paradigm Towers are not cutting the mustard for the live sound I am seeking. Keep up the great segments. My old Caver needs a rebuild but Covid is in the way on that front. It is much appreciated by thousands of Audiophiles and Audioholics everywhere. I am thinking blue tooth Klipsch rears or JBL monitor rears. I talk to deaf ears like you guy experience and my life moto is: "Because I Can"!!!
Saved this for listening later at work. This video is a good example of why Audioholics is superior to any other company on the web and social media. Matt is good...hope he's on more in the future. Don is awesome with his no bs attitude and responses and of course Gene. The laid back Master who has great guests and calls out the bs with others. You guys are my Bible to the hobby. Thanks and will become a member soon. Kirk
Excellent video Gene, Don & Matthew! Greatly appreciated. A lot of info to digest in here. This one with Matthew, like the ones with Anthony Grimani, I'll have to watch again.
Most people are quite happy to listen in an regular "untreated" livingroom but are happely un-aware on how much better it could be if it was treated or if they got an dedicated room that are treated.
Great point around airflow, Major comfort factor and noise / sound quality factor.
Great video,. I’m envious of Gene’s shirt. Matthew is brilliant. Thanks
About leaving the floor hard and treating the ceiling to be absorbent, this is a common technique for recording spaces. It is much more natural to people because humans walk the earth and are used to reflections off the ground; some say drums sound weird without that effect. My listening space does triple duty as a performance space and recording space too, but I made mine more absorbent everywhere...I can always bring in thin rigid hard reflective surfaces, but broad bandwidth velocity absorbers are not so portable.
Yes but in nature the floor is never a perfectly flat reflective surface
At around 18 mins DON started to enjoy his drink. 😜🥃 and he's talkin..
Great video 👍
The ideal listening room is one that makes you happy, one where the music transports you. Music should allow you to daydream, to wash away your stress and help you relax. It doesn't matter if you are a teen listening to a pair of $500 speakers on your first system in an untreated room, or if your listening to a pair of Focal Grand Utopias in a $400,000 dedicated music listening room thinking about when you got your cherry popped decades ago. If you don't feel like you want to get up and dance, if the music doesn't make you feel invincible, or motivate you to hit the gym, or grab your ball and meet your buddies on the basketball court, if it doesn't make you and your girl feel like getting laid, it isn't the ideal listening room. Listening to music is something that should be fun. One that puts a smile on your face.
If you're sitting in a room by yourself, critically listening to music, trying to figure out if the vocals or a specific instrument sound real, or if it is off, if you are trying to figure out if your latest improvement made a difference, if you find yourself feeling that you need to get that upgrade you have been thinking about (upgraditis) in order to reach "the next level," or if you feel you will finally be happy once your REW measurements beat everyone on the forums... I can save you a lot of time and just let you know now...your doing it wrong. There is no perfect listening room. If you want music to sound "correct," call your friends or take a date and go listen to a live band play. Get out of the house.
Any hobby where you just spend hours and hours working for and deciding where to spend your "fun money" thinking that once you obtain that possession (i.e. "end-game" audio equipment, luxury watch, the high horsepower sports car, that high end escort or some home improvement to show off to your friends and neighbors) is just killing time, or at best, keeping you out of trouble. These things aren't going to bring you happiness. All you need in order to obtain happiness is the right mindset, and the good news about that is, you can choose to be happy in 2 minutes without spending a dime. There are thousands of audiophiles in their 70s who have spent the last 50 years trying to find audio nirvana trough music reproduction only to find out it doesn't exist.
The hobby died out. It's deader than Kelsey's balls. They didn't get future generations interested in it. There is no perfect speaker, it doesn't matter what "camp" you are in, there is no "correct" sound. There have been thousands of speaker manufacturers over the past half century and they haven't converged on a perfect sound. Speakers from different manufacturers today sound as widely different as they did 50 years ago. They haven't all gotten more similar. That's because speakers are fundamentally flawed, as are the rooms we listen to them in.
Excellent post. It's actually the same all over. Reminds me of the hundred pages long forums about graphic cards, discussing whether you won/lost the silicon lottery based on a difference of 100Mhz in the max frequency that will render a ridiculous 1-2 fps difference. So many people spending their time benchmarking their electronics instead of simply enjoying them. I think the audio ladder is actually much shorter for a majority of people than the reviewers make us believe. Meaning that while you enjoy a substantial-quality leap upgrading from a crappy speaker to a mid-fi one, past a certain point the upgrade ladder makes not much sense because of the imbalance on price/improvement ratio, the variance in personal taste/hearing and unsolvable speakers compromises. It doesn't make any sense to spend more time on speaker reviews than actually listening to your current system, you have to keep the obsession at bay and be realistic. I remember how much I enjoyed the music in those recorded tapes in my 80's walkman. The quality was awful, but my passion went through the roof 😁
I absolutely agree with you. There are no perfect rooms, speakers, or anything else so it is a fools game to go chasing after them. I try to do the best that I can with a limited budget by DIYing my speakers and power amps, doing some DSP EQing of the bass frequencies, listening in the near field to minimize the room effects, turning off the lights to better focus on the music, and just letting the music wail and take me over. My level of enjoyment and pleasure can sometimes be about as good as any other pleasurable experience in life, if you know what I mean. I enjoy my audio hobby but it is just a means to an end, not my everything.
I find strip clubs and champagne rooms to be ideal listening environments
Gene, Don, Matthew - THANK YOU!
Thanks guys your the best and all your other guests God bless
Thanks for this very informative presentation and discussion. I learnt something new for which I am grateful. I have a 2 ch system. I have a large listening room 11.5m by 8.5m by 2.7m. I have omnidirectional speakers (MBL101Mk2) and the room has an RDT /RT60 of .5 to .6s. It sounds quite nice, I have always liked a less dry room sound. I use a professionally calibrated DEQX for room and speaker correction. Nonetheless, I was thinking that I should really try and get the room RT60 below .5s, but in light of Matt's comments I am a a lot less concerned about that now. cheers.
I have Mirage Omnipolar speakers for 20 years in a 5.1 system and I love the sound.
Same here. I got hooked on them about 6 years ago and since have gone onto collect the entire M, OM, Omni and OMD series. I’ve switched to M&so THX speakers, Def Tech, ML Motion 60’s, etc and I ALWAYS come back to Mirage. In my room nothing sound as good. Current system is Mirage OMD-28’s for mains with an OMD-C2, OM-9’s for surrounds and 4 OMD-5’s for height layer. I’ve even got a pair of BPS-400’s as part of my sub setup. Mirage was amazing minus some of their later made in China crap like the MX series haha.
@@josephfranzen5626 I have Mirage OM 10 front, OM14 back and OM-C2 for center channel.
@@Alexandroskollias1 I love the OM-10’s. If I’m not running OMD’s up front I’m running the 10’s with an OMC2. The C2 is decades old now and it still sounds incredible and so clear!
I have a pair of Mirage Omnisat Omnipolar speakers as surrounds for 15 years now and still love them.
Please do a video about C80 and how to achieve good interaction between early and late reflection to have smooth C80. Thanks
Thank you gentlemen for all the information & expertise. I do appreciate the discussion in the real world. A calculation I learned after 34 years of marriage, IRA - WAF = TRW. Essentially {Ideal Room Acoustics minus Wife Acceptance Factor equals The Real World}.
While you are completely right, it has long been my goal to find ways to treat rooms in a manner that doesn’t look bad. I think it’s possible to have both. It might cost more money, but from a looks standpoint, I think it can be done.
@@PoesAcoustics I agree, good call.
I think it would be great for a video concenrating on all the research on lateral early reflections and what solution works for what type of music or even for dialogue, elaborating on Griesinger's work and making it understandable for the laymen. Also untangling research that suggests strong early reflections improve dialogue and also improve direct sound if the spectral content is the same(I only read one opinion on this so I would love to know if it's considered substantiated research) for music listening, which in effect is contradictory to the ITD gap theory(which is a very well established theory) Maybe you can untangle the contradictions the different theories and how and for what each concept can be used for in small rooms? I could even have undertood it wrong but there is a lot of information out there that is very different. I think that would really be a great video just on contradictory theories and on those lateral reflections. Maybe even basics of how to read an impulse response and ETD graph and what make a good sounding room.
We can do more.
It’s not really a contradiction actually. Reflections off the front wall are not great, but they come from the same direction as the direct signal so they aren’t so problematic either.
Lateral reflections that are too earl (known as very Earl reflections, rather than early reflections) are problematic when coming from different directions such as the sidewall. First reflections off the side wall are ok. But imagine a decent sized room where the main speakers are 2 meters from the side wall. In this scenario you get strong lateral reflections and a high ITD. That would be consistent with the research in both cases.
You have to remember the conditions under which this research was done. I don’t believe they ever tested a scenario where speakers were put into a small room less than 2ft from a side wall. The sidewall tests were still pretty far away by residential standards, and all other reflections were absorbed since it was done in a anechoic chamber.
@@PoesAcoustics "But imagine a decent sized room where the main speakers are 2 meters from the side wall. In this scenario you get strong lateral reflections and a high ITD. That would be consistent with the research in both cases." I think this is key, that the ITD gap is important but with strong lateral reflections though the question remains what consitututes as very early reflectons according to your slide presentation it is still unknown did I understand that correctly? It said 3ms 5ms or 10ms...
I’ve often wondered what a large circular room on the horizontal place especially would be like in terms of acoustics?
We try and envelop ourselves in a ‘bubble’ especially with immersive audio.
What would an acoustically treated circular room be like? What size would that room have to be to make a difference to how sound bounces off the walls etc. So many questions, has this ever been talked about?
A circle is much worse a room shape than even a square (which can be made better with several techniques) for music listening or home cinema.
Maybe a rectangular room with a circle room built inside the rectangular room. With acoustic fabric (nothing else, just the acoustic fabric as the walls) all the way round the circle.
So the sound waves travel straight through the circle and hit the rectangular walls.
Probably sound like you have headphones on without headphones on
Total long shot, but what brand is that chair in the thumbnail? I want.
id like to see don and Anthony and Matt back for more lives. By the way Matt, Anthony would take you out in a cage match LOL :)
Gene, I would appreciate very much if you could cover coping with listening rooms that have hard surface floors ie. wood over concrete. I have MS and am in a wheelchair, living in supportive housing facility which forbids carpeting of any kind due to mobility. This is my biggest bane in life. Thanks Gene !
Forgot to mention that I listen mainly to classical music (not rock) and don’t use the system for video. My amp is a 2011 Yamaha 7.1 and I like to use alll 8 speakers. The main fronts are tower JBLs from 2013. Surround speakers are generic Sony home theatre and the sob is Klipsh 10”. I also have a Sony 12” sub which I have not tried as a second sub.
When I listen to music I aim for the sound of good whispy highs good clean mids and a good woody base. (My first preference is for closely miked recording and immediacy). The surrounds are just supportive of the fronts. I hate the seeming effect of echo that often sound of latency.
BTW, my room is 8-foot ceiling, 12’ wide X 18’ long
Sorry to hear this. If you can have someone put absorption panels on the ceiling that would help counter the hard surface floor.
So ceiling baffles? If so, would there be a distance from to fronts that would be optimal?
What does RDT stand for? Sorry for the stupid question! I can't find info online for RDT that's related to this topic.
3rd watch. Lots of information here, and much appreciated. My room is what your mamma warned you about, being square, and its about 2500. So what it I did was go big and put a JBL Pro cinema in, (ie JBL 222 as the centre), crown, trinnov to try and beat the acoustic problem with nothing more than bookcases couches and rug on a tiled floor. Your previous videos with Anthony talked about absorption/diffusion ratios so I played with that by using cushions stacked sideways to act as both diffuser and absorbers. The whole setup can be moved, adjusted as nothing is fixed. Ie a jbl 9300 slots into a bookcase space, and can move it. My objective is to get the room so I can, as the video suggests, provide a movable modular space without putting a single nail in a wall. It's an interesting journey, and these videos sure help. Thank you.
My 7.2.4 system is in my bedroom with one seating position almost against the back wall (satellites surround my chair). My height speakers are at the wall/ceiling junctions roughly in line with my main speakers. Do I need to up the dB on the back speakers since they're basically above my head and 4 ft to each side to get the upper surround effect or would it be better to just move my chair about 4 or 5 ft closer to the center of the room when I want to watch an Atmos movie?
Answer...No
Just like there's never a "Best" and never will be a best in audio equipment, it's constantly changing, for the better IMO, and is subject to the listener and there rooms. Excellent info!
Do your best within your budget, but the end result should be that you enjoy the listening and the journey. 😉
Yeah I'm sure if they heard my system they say it's boomy but I love it! Deep bass a slow decay... everyone loves that sound... I don't care how boxy it sounds, audiophiles are crazy... That's why klipsch is one of the best selling audio gears in the US...
Is this a listening room or a watching room. Cinema really doesn't have to sound as good as 2 way listening. It's not like closing your eyes listening to music, you are dealing with visuals and overblown sound effects.
You guys were talking about the HVAC noise . radiant heating and cooling I think is the only way to get away from the whole central heating and air noise factor.But like you guys said that is an expensive thing to do it’s the best way to heat and cool house but extremely expensive on top of extremely expensive audio clip the man with the lottery
Another master class on room acoustics, I look forward to the video on how to measure RDT
Jene, your patreon link in youtube has never worked!
Regarding to recreate the acoustic and precision of professional mixing studios...We wish one day to have a review of the famous and unique Smyth Realiser A16 or A24...
À lot of good info… but I am unable to really arrive to a conclusion and nether know what I have to do ! :)
The point was to offer the idea that building rooms to these standards isn’t necessarily appropriate for a typical person. That what you need really depends on what your room is already like, what music you like to listen to, and what you listen for when you listen. There is no one right answer.
Can some one explain what RDT is and provide a source. Is this like EDT. What is this?
Hi, love these long sessions on room acoustics, learning a lot. Re: Dirac/Audyssey; what about Steinway Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect? I hear and read it is a step ahead other types of room corrections. Do any of you have experience to share about Lyngdorf / Steinway Lyngdorf RoomPerfect?
It is not a step ahead. Not sure who is saying that.
Dirac is every bit as advanced if not more so.
No current room corrections can correct room acoustics. None can impact lateral reflections, diffusing the IR tail, absorbing ceiling reflections, etc.
All of the current systems are SIMO, and as such simply can’t have any effect on acoustics. Even the upcoming MIMO systems won’t really be able to do that. They will just address some of the remaining issues with LF acoustic problems allowing for the correction acoustically of problems higher in frequency. All that garbage up to like 500hz or so.
@@PoesAcoustics Read the white paper on RoomPerfect and I think you wouldn’t be as dismissive of it. I have and have heard other two channel systems using Lyngdorf and it’s something special, especially Steinway Lyngdorf systems that have fully active loudspeakers.
@@afrancois1968 What I don't like is all the RoomPerfect dealers mistakenly saying that RoomPerfect in a untreated room will sound better than in a acoustically treated room. When it can't stop reflections, reduce reverb time, treat mids and highs.
You get the RoomPerfect dealers and site supporters over on the UK avforums. Talking nonsense about putting RoomPerfect in a untreated room and it will give you the best sound quality. 🤦🏾♂️
It's impossible to physically treat a room with any room correction. Even the still very limited future MIMO room correction won't be available to the average consumer. Unless you're very rich and get them to come and install it correctly.
@@C--Athat’s correct. I have a fully treated room (as far as I can go) and use RoomPerfect. I used to use RP without treatment and the difference is big. However an untreated room with RoomPerfect is far better than one without.
Room treatment is necessary in order to control changes in time domain. Digital calibration is necessary in order to control changes in frequency domain. We need them both. There is no way to get both results with one action. No Way.
A good digital room correction system work both in the frequency and time domain, but yes treat your room as much as possible and put the cherry on the cake with room correction software.
@@afrancois1968 playing with delay on digital domain does not fix RT60 for example. Treatment is absolutely necessary.
Such a nice crew!
Have you guys heard of Linkwitz?
58:50 On Dirac…. Yes, neither Audyssey or Dirac negates the need for room treatments. But - to refer to Dirac as “room correction” is pretty superficial. You can indeed change the spaciousness with Dirac. It is not fair to compare Dirac with Audyssey at all….. I think you guys really need to give it an honest shot. Try the 9 point vs 13 point vs 17 point. An eye opener. Appreciate the vid. Matthew is great! Gene, it would be a missed opportunity to not honestly consider Dirac for your room. Very powerful tool.
You cannot affect spaciousness. That is incorrect and impossible. Spaciousness is a result of the reflections in the lateral direction. Dirac cannot do anything with that. Your understanding and expectation of Dirac is a bit off im afraid.
@@PoesAcoustics Sure.... unless you account for Dirac also affecting phasing of signal. They do indeed add spaciousness if you measure wider vs narrow seating. Says so right in the software. I am also educated on room acoustics and get where you are cominf from. Do you have hands on expeience though with Dirac?
@@trevorm574 Very much so. I was a beta tester of the original product and have been an inside user of the product with a relationship to Dirac since 2005 or so. It's effect on linearizing the phase and that impact on spaciousness is going to be mild. If you have a background in acoustics and understand this, then you likely also know that what it is doing can't really improve spaciousness without processing the signal in a different way. it doesn't offer any crosstalk cancelation so it can't impact that aspect. It can't create lateral reflections or change them. it can't introduce lateral phase dissimilarity (if anything, it is improving L-R phase similarity). They might claim it, but I don't buy it, and certainly never heard evidence of it in my use of the product over the last 10+ years.
Can you also point to where they claim improved spaciousness? I just looked to find that on the website, since that would surprise me to hear Mathias say that. This is what I see: "The result is substantially improved musical staging, clarity, voice intelligibility, as well as a deeper and tighter bass." This has nothing to do with spaciousness.
Hey Matthew, I will load the software and let you know. Pretty sure it is between initial setup and measurement sections where you specify how many points you measure in ver 3. Not trying to pick a fight btw. Not one of those. :)
How to contact Mathew?
Just buy the best speakers and amps first. Spend on room treatments after you spend 90-95% of your budget on the basics. Don’t put the cart before the horse. Room treatments are transformative....BUT not if you have subpar equipment. #KISS (keep it simple silly 😜)
I would say this. Get the speakers right first. But actually, a basic receiver is as good an amp as many need of the speakers aren’t particularly large. Research done into the dominant factors found speakers first, but once the speakers were similar enough, room dominated. It really is the second most important factor. People ignore it because it’s hard not because it’s unimportant.
@@PoesAcoustics fascinating. Did not know that. Link to the study if possible. Thanks :)
@@Novilicious it’s in Floyd Tooles book. It’s one of Sean Olives studies.
www.researchgate.net/publication/263008094_The_Variability_of_Loudspeaker_Sound_Quality_Among_Four_Domestic-Sized_Rooms
Perhaps nice topic for a future video would be the ideal woofer size for each listening distance. For example one 6,5" woofer is not optimal for 3m listening distance. Genelec has specific graphs for that.
To be honest that won’t make sense outside of a closed loop speaker like Genelec. There is no woofer size that is right for a given room size. That is a nonsensical idea. Genelec speakers equate room size with output because they have closed loop speakers. They know how loud they play and where their far field response is. It’s typically more about output needs and listening distance. But crossover frequency and driver to driver spacing is what dictates the listening distance minima. I have a 12” waveguide bases 2-way you can happily listen to at a distance of 2.5 meters in a smallish room.
@@PoesAcoustics there is a woofer size for any listening distance. For example 6,5" woofer is small for 3m listening distance. Even 8" woofer is suitable for 2.5m max. Everything is up to physics. You cannot have undisturbed sound in 3m from a 6,5m woofer. It's impossible. And this is for any speaker, not only Genelec.
Also if you use a small woofer for the listening distance, the reflected sound would dominate the direct sound. Because of that reason you will experience coloration that is not wanted.
Expensive audio equipment on top of it but man if you won the lottery
Hey guys, I know this off top, the brown leather chair in the video/pic what brand model is it?
A one way acoustically transparent biosphere
Unrelated but I have a onkyo sr805 (2007) and a 7.1 system. Everything but the reciever is new. I bought a umik 1 and I can't get r.e.w. to play through speakers. I've seen several tutorials and Everything is showing its connected properly. Is the reciever to old??? Thanks!!!!
DON DON DON. Please try to refrain from interjecting so much. Let the man speak. Comments like "is that where you put your victims in" is disruptive and unhelpful when I'm trying to follow a complex explanation. PLEASE BE QUIET. It's so frustrating. Can I suggest you DON'T DRINK when a guy with this level of knowledge is trying to impart his knowledge to us.
"In wall and ceiling speakers have come a long way". They will have to come a much longer way to sound even remotely as good as when function over form takes precedence. There are always sacrifices when form is most important regarding sound. We listen to sound, not look at it. There is a little bit of leeway without sacrificing too much quality, but you can't go too far before the quality of sound takes a big hit.
Matty Poes... he's back...
Here’s a question: What’s the smallest workable space for a home theater?
It really depends on what you are willing to compromise on. I can imagine a surround setup in a room that is 6-8 feet in each dimension. Such a space could be made to work but you will be making some compromises. For example, that is probably good for 1-2 people and you will likely not use projection. Good sound will require setting it up on an odd way.
I have seen very tiny home theaters in Japan that looked like a closet that has been converted. I would be shocked if it was more than 6 feet in any one direction.
But if you want something that a family can enjoy together and you don’t want to be pushing your seats against the back wall (and you ideally don’t) then I would say 10-12 feet in each direction. Anything smaller than that is going to start making more compromises.
Ι listen with upmixer all the time. All my 2ch music is upmixed to 5.1. I don't even remember when I heard with 2 front speakers last time. Must be years. No way to go back.
Don STOP interrupting Mathew it's very annoying!!! Maybe its the Bourbon? Or perhaps he's too intoxicated to know when to not talk....
I totally agree. If the intent of this video was to be educational, Don certainly does his very best to mess it up. Problem is, he succeeds with it too. His comments and interruptions adds nothing, absolutely nothing of value.