Ever since I've came across that Lufkin measuring tape, I won't buy any other. I've had em all and that's the best brand 'Tape' I've had. As rough as I am on tapes, they last me longer than any other. 🤘🏽
I choose the Stanley Fat Max autolock. I keep 3 handy because one never knows where the other 2 might wander off... If a blade gets bent its time for a new tape because I need my 3 tapes to cross reference each other. The fat max tapes have always been good to me. 3 tapes 1 for the marking area 1 for the cutting area 1 as a floater They play a shell game together too!
Comparing full retail to full retail, the math makes sense to buy the pouch lithium, but with so many good deals where you get free batteries, I'm not so sure. I bought a Milwaukee M18 Fuel SAWZALL that came with 2 of the 6.0HO's and 1 of the 8.0HO's for $269 at HD. The SAWZALL is normally $200, so I got the 3 batteries for $69. Those 3 batteries will get about as many charges as the Forge battery (about 1200). The Forge 6.0 costs $179. So the 3 HO batteries end up being $0.06 per charge vs. $0.15 per charge for the Forge. I think there's still some value to be gotten from the HO batteries if you find them on sale or in bundles.
For the DIY stuff I do these days (not nearly as frequently as back in the day), the DeWalts I have, have held up great. I have 4-6AH XR's that are 4-8 years old now that still perform. I've only ever had one fail on me. If I need new ones, I would probably try the Power Stacks. We'll see when we start some big projects at my son's new house this summer! I'll also get to play with his Milwaukee tools to see how I like them. Higher battery capacity also means you need fewer batteries, less weight to lug around, and less room taken up in your boxes!
I use both DeWalt and Milwaukee on 7 work trailers and 2 HVAC step vans and I have no problems with both brands and my guys like both as well …🇺🇸👊🏼👊🏼🪚🔨
Good stuff. I think your math terms are a bit off. If you have 300 charge cycles vs 1200 charge cycles you have 4 times the charge cycles, not 400 times more charge cycles. If you had 400 times more charge cycles you'd have 120,000 charge cycles. Still, very good info to know about the flat pack differences vs. cylindrical cells.
@@FredD63 I've only tried one of his impacts & drills. Seemed fine, was just awkward to have to push an electronic button to select/reverse speed. Guess It's what you're used to. I prefer the mechanical switches.
So I have now have hourly job chargers and bid job chargers, got it! 😀 - I will say I didn’t trust “Pouch” tech for a while now, especially in my Large 100ah 12v batteries, this makes me rethink that..
I'm not sure I can take advise from someone wearing only two pairs of glasses. I like to see at least three or preferably four pairs worn before I'm convinced.
Thank you for making videos like this because although I already know this I see a lot of people shopping for tools who are lost or confused and do not know what to buy they often just buy what can be easily found and when I started out I watched all your videos before spending any big amount of money and I learned so much from you so no matter what the haters say you are helping people out here I am just one example
most of my batteries were purchased prior to the pouch being out. I have bought more cylindrical cell batteries since but that because of the killer deals. I run mobile service and install for generators and can't always plug in so more batteries is better to me than fast recharge. I will start buying them when I see deals on them but that will likely be a while.
Great video. As a casual DIYer, most years consist of me having to remember to charge my batteries at least once a year to avoid them slipping out of residual charge. However I'm always pleasantly surprised when the battery indicators typically still show fully charged but it's always good to check. Other years where my tools actually get used I may charge them up to 5 times. A 400x charge life cycle will definitely outlast my time on this planet. The biggest fear of every cordless tool customer would probably be the inevitability of the manufacturers deciding to discontinue current battery types making our current tools obsolete.
Something I believe helps batteries last longer is don’t leave them charging if they’re charged. Take them off the charger and don’t let them die all the way
Any good charger doesnt apply voltage to a full cell. There is something to be said about full depletion, but the tools also dont fully deplete the cells. A fully depleted li-ion is a hazard and most chargers wont charge an "undervolt cell" Pouch cell technology comes from the drone market/RC market. For drones, power to weight matters, and the heaviest thing is the battery. Batteries really have a "C" rating, which denotes the power rating. 1C = 1×C(capacity Ah) so a 5.0Ah cell @ 1C = 5.0 amp max output and .5 amp max charging. Standard for a cylindrical cell is 3C. Standard for a pouch would be 10-15C but goes over 30C.
Modern chargers shouldn’t be a problem. I have five Dewalt chargers and roughly a dozen batteries. They all get rotated but I leave a battery on every charger 24/7. Some batteries get lost for months at a time. Been doing this for years and haven’t lost a battery yet. Two no longer hold a full charge but I’d attribute that to them being at least 10 years old. The “youngest” battery I have is at least six or seven years old.
Lithium cells suffer if kept always at full charge. It reduces their life cycles…only charge above 60% if you intend to use it very soon. This does not apply to tradies, because they always need a full charge for work and replacing a battery sooner is just a consumable work expense to them, an acceptable outlay every other year.
you're absolutely correct! lion batteries last longest when kept between 20-80%. they also like being charged in bursts: leave it on for 30 minutes, take it off for a bit, and repeat. Macbooks actually do this: they can limit charging to 80% and if you need it to go to 100% will charge slowly for the last 20%
Cylinder cells are going to be heavier and bigger. However, a few companies are producing packs with 21700 tabless cells. They shouldn't have issues with heat, charge/discharge speed, but they're still going to take up more space and they'll be a little heavier, seeing as they're each inside an aluminum casing. However, the pouch cells might not last as long, depending on the pack itself. Pouch cells swell and expand as they age. If they're stored properly, so they can't expand too much, they could be better, given weight and space. Cylinder cells do a good job of containing the chemistry and prevent expansion.
I heard that a 12.0 Forge is coming out using cylinder tabless cells. Agree that pouch cells do expand. I've seen it happen in a couple different devices.
@@daifeichu ya, I think cylinders are just tougher and don't have as many issues with temperature. But they cant compete with the space efficiency of pouch cells.
Pouch cells are mostly a scam. There’s reasons a company like Tesla will go out of their way to design custom cells, but stick with cylinders. That “extra” weight from the surrounding metal isn’t extra. It transfers the heat to the sides of the battery. Pouch cells only work well in thin systems like phones and laptops. Stack a bunch on top of each other like they do in tool batteries and the internal temps will get out of control after just a short time of use. The solution for this is shoving metal layers between pouches to transfer heat, but that negates a lot of the advantages. Cylinder cells using standard sizes are serviceable at battery shops potentially giving a lot more years of use. Bosch skipped pouch batteries in favor of tabless and I think you’re correct about that being the best way forward.
@@mrbigberd I wouldn't call them a scam lol! But they certainly have some drawbacks. If they can get a better chemistry in there, they could be superior. They DO have greater energy density, as they can use near if not 100% of the volume.
@@dpjazzy15 The chemistry in cylinders has also improved over the years. The energy density doesn't seem like it's any better in a practical sense because of the cooling issue. They build up heat in the core of the battery that hurts discharge rates and lowers the battery's overall charge cycles. Notice that the really big batteries haven't been released yet as they have even worse heat buildup issues. The tech could take over one day, but most of the claimed stuff is just marketing (eg, DeWalt marketing). Why don't their 21700 batteries have as many charge cycles? because they didn't want to pay for that level of performance. 50% more power? Not vs tabbed batteries like Bosch's new core+. 50% more efficient? Also not vs tabbed batteries. I think there's a LOT of potential for pouch batteries in the sub-4ah form factor though as these are thin enough to dissipate heat without the need for lots of cooling between cells. Milwaukee, Ridgid, or Bosch 12v in particular could benefit a lot from shoving a bit more battery into the handle or making the handle a bit thinner.
YOU ARE BY FAR THE VERY MOST PROFESIONAL INSTRUCTORI HAVE EVER HEARD OF, AND YOU ARE DOING ALL THIS MONEY SAVING TEACHING FOR FREE? THANKS VERY MUCH, GOD BLESS YOU!
Dewalt tool user here. The ONLY time I buy kits is if I can verify that not only is the battery worth owning, but the charger as well. Since I have hit the tipping point as a cordless tool owner, I own the highest amp chargers (fanless) along with a mix of Powerstack and 21700's. A few of my lower amp cylindrical cells (4A and 5A) literally never get used and should be sold. Thanks Vince for another video with great information.
I've been using power tools since Makita's 9 volt power drill in the early eighties, now I've decided to start buying Flex after using three major brands for the last 42 years. The first Flex batteries had to be replaced by manufacturer , well known issues. I seriously like the Flex tool and their warranty is very good. Hilti was a great tool that is highly expensive, but I did like their tools, some of the best made.
I've got Makita batteries that are over 12 years old & work just as good as the day I got them. I've used these to build houses & a lot of them. You treat your tools right & they'll do the job. Again, this guy is full of it!!!
@@thomasmelanson9739 this guy isn’t “full of it” he’s explaining the new battery technology, clearly you’re an old man who hates new tech. The reason your batteries lasted 12 years is because you don’t put em to good heavy duty use every day
It does. And it seems like they would be more volatile than the cylindrical cells. I'd be interested to see the safety comparison and the track record since release.
yes similar tech has been going in cheap Chinese electronics that normally would have used an 18650 or other cylindrical variant. they can fit higher energy per area and output, but they don't last as long. thinking it's gonna happen here too
Great video sir…,so I just bought a Milwaukee mower….comes with 2-HO 12 batteries ( both are needed to run the mower) so I’m looking at buying 2 extra batteries. Would you recommend two more HO 12’s? Or 2 Forge? ( at additional cost) My current HO 12’s fall just short of my cutting needs ( about 10 mins) so need to charge to finish. That said, if I understand you correctly, the Forge will accept more charges over and over again….so if I spring first the new Forge batteries, would I make those my “ first run” batteries, and save the HO as the “ second run” for those extra 10 mins of need. Thus, charging the HO less frequently, since it would only get 10 mins of use each cut…( assuming I deplete the Forge each cut fully) Thank you for your comments in advance.
Im in the market for a new drill and impact driver and i had no idea the battery difference and the costs per charge cycle. great video for pros and joes ... keep up the great work your doing...
I'm in the IT field, I was well aware of it when I heard there was talk of a Milwaukee pouch style battery coming out. I knew exactly what field of tech it came from so I was excited! Thanks for the video! Hopefully with more exposure they'll sell more and the price will go down
Great video. Most high end laptop batteries are now pouch li-Ion. I'm an EE and can attest that the lower internal series resistance helps ALOT for high power (current) needs like tools. Milliohms makes a difference and is a major reason why Tesla bought Maxwell Technologies in 2019 since EV's batteries push/pull 70-200A vs 2-20A for a tool.
I must have a dozen of 6 amp DeWalts in a pile that don't work. The issue is when they get wet it fry's out the electronics in the battery. I wish they made them waterproof. Good video!
I was waiting for someone to mention this on DeWalts. Between the shop floor at the company I worked for (100 cordless’s, changing brands about once every year or two) friends and my brother inlaws pile of dead DeWalt batteries, to me it’s so obvious DeWalt batteries don’t last. Coincidence? Am I missing something?
Vince, great video!! I'm a black &yellow guy but it's awesome to see everyone is going pack. I really was living in a bubble because I thought only dewalt had the packs. It was just more in my face, props to dewalt for the name power stack and visual on the battery. But like you pointed out it's hard to tell on the other lines who is stacked. Great video. I love the cost breakdown, I never knew you could get that much more life out if them. Thanks I'm sold on them now even more than ever. Now that HD and Lowes are giving away free batteries with tools. Keep up the great work in front camera and the people behind the scenes, thanks for making it all happen.
I'm just hoping my old lady don't come home from work and see this. She's always shopping for new more powerful ah tools. She got a whole dresser drawer stuffed full of her ah tools...
The “watts out” you’re attempting to describe is referred to as a battery’s ‘C-rating’. It’s the battery’s discharge and charge capability, based on the current it can produce. This is why these pouch-style batteries can run larger tools, they can supply much higher amperage.
The Samsung 21700size, 40T model - remain the superior choice as lithium battery. "Superior" means that the 40T keeps its capacity, it's impedance and its high terminal voltage for a minimum of eight years and/or 500 cycles. Sadly, this is not true of many other cell brands, the kind of tool batteries you find in bargain-bin at the tool shop. A pouch cell is a better choice over non-branded cylindrical cells. In general, pouch cells are cheaper to manufacture, and have an initial lower impedance than cylindrical cells. They are physically more prone to damage - you kill them by charging them at low temperature (below 15 °F), but they are smaller and lighter than their cylindrical counterparts, as they lack the steel casing - replaced with a pouch made with aluminium foil...
Nice one Vince, I didn't know about the forge line of batteries to be honest. I always thought the high output was the way to go, I'm glad you made this video!
The best price I could find for Milwaukee Forge batteries was $200 each @ 20% off vs. 172.27 for the high output @ 25% off courtesy of Amazon. (Yes, I know about Amazon counterfeits and Milwaukee's warranty policies)
In the Philippines, they prefer the one with cylindrical batteries so they can replace it with new ones once the old one goes bad with a help of a technician.
Dude, you didn't talk about Ridgid? Was it there just as a prop??? Thats the only reason I watched the video and you didn't even run the numbers on Ridgid, do they even offer a pouch alternative?
Also not to mention on the subject of getting more and more charges with the pouch lithium. I have multiple 5ah XR batteries from 2019-2020. Charged many many times. I have never had a battery dwindle away at a rate worth noticing. It’s always failure from a drop, randomly quit charging, stuff like that. Although I can only recall 2 2ah batteries that I’ve had fail, 1 3ah and 1 flex volt 9ah. All of them did the same thing. Quit charging.
Very informative video, I get the point about charge cycles and the lifetime cost of the battery, however in the UK they are still priced too high vs HO. 6.0ah forge 250% more ££ than a 5.5ah (EU version of 6.0HO). They’re also 120% more ££ than 12ah HO. In terms of lifecycle cost they look very attractive vs 12ah but pitched against the 5.5ah (6ahHO) they are only 25% cheaper per cycle. But I can afford to have two 5.5ah batteries for the price on one 6ah Forge. This halves the lifecycle cost of the 5.5ah as I’m splitting the load between two batteries making the 5.5 effectively 60% cheaper per cycle.
Excellent break down! I am mad because I bought several DeWalt 4AH batteries just the other month, at least though I want through my friend who is a rep and got them on the "cheaper" side. I am picking up a couple Powerstacks but I also have 2 FlexVolt 9AH batteries for my Flex 7 1/2 Circular saw and can use it on my blower and other DeWalt tools.
Another consideration though, for a DIY user, is that the pack may last as long as the lifespan of a lithium battery (even an unused battery will eventually not be able to hold a charge) so the lower number of charge cycles won’t matter.
The only thing I hate about flex is the chargers are so big man. Other then that great power I have been using flex for a couple years now no complaints here.
As it stands currently, I get most of my batteries during sales deals where the tool/batteries come together (Tool, 2 Batteries, Charger) often for less than the Tool or a Tool Battery ALONE costs. I’ve got 9 batteries and only one was bought as just a battery … I have too many chargers if that’s possible … I can see why Milwaukee Forge is 1:1 a “better” deal but, until they start packaging them into deals, I’ll continue to routinely carry 5 batteries and a charger in one of their freebie soft sided tool cases and run their Drill, Grinder, Circular &/or Sawzall, 1/2” Impact Hammer ALL DAY LONG without experiencing any Lack of Power. When the deals begin I can see choosing deals that include Forge Batteries but the relatively small increases gained vs the much higher $ don’t get me past the economic “hump”.
Great video! Thanks for the info i am definitely going to go with the these newer battery packs on my next purchase. One thing, whats with the 2 pairs of glasses? Little weird.
No *ATG's comparisons with the rest dated batteries? *we been using it for 2 years & are very pleased with ATG's adapter to IR & Ryobi tools. *uses graphene batteries.
I have a question, doesn't fast charge (or super charge) shortens life spam of the battery? I've seen videos about uber drivers super charge their car daily result in battery dying super early and having to be replaced. I'm wondering those 1200 cycle is normal charge or on super charge?
Vince, I’m a DIY hack. THANK YOU for the education and pulling back the curtain on battery power. Any recommendations on a YT channel that plainly and simply teaches how to build useful things around the house?
@VCG Constuction , great video Vince much appreciated for the information you show on the new battery technologies and how the pouch cells work and it helps me explain to the wife how I can buy the new forge batteries for my Milwaukee tools and make it worth the while, so thank you for the great job you do at letting the uninformed learn at a simple pace with a easy explanation
Okay I didn't get to the end of the video so you may have covered this but you know it doesn't say flax or cylinder on the battery pack when you go look at it to buy it
I mean... Once I need more batteries, I'll consider it, but I have a shitload of cell batteries laying around, and they honestly work just fine. Once I pop a flexvolt into my "flexvolt advantage" DeWalt circ saw, that thing just goeeees
I have dewalt everything with some Milwaukee tools. The power stack is not my favorite at all. Big tools I need a 8ah or flex volt. And for my regular hand tools I find the power stack way to heavy and bulky compared to the XR 5ah. So for me. It’s either the 5ah XR or the flex volt system. I have no use for the power stack. I like the 1.7 powerstacks for doing drywall or something that doesn’t take lots of power. I like the light weight feel. But putting in deck screws. The 1.7 last 10 minutes if that.
We drone fliers use Lipo battery packs and it does pack a punch and does have a higher discharge rate. but we kill lipo (puffed) packs all the time. once one of the cell pack is puffed, the whole pack is done.. and it's a pain to replace as well. which is why we just chuck it out. don't know why they charging so much for these lipo packs. I would rather stick with 18650 or 21700 lion instead of lipo cells.
I'm interested where you found that cell batteries last 300-400 cycles maybe cheap ones yes but good quality is rated for 800 cycles. Plus it will be hard to repair it for affordable price when cells can be easily replaced. And pouches love to expand at sunny days when you not expect. :) I prefer just to buy empty battery shells and cells its cheaper plus i know what inside :D
I was lucky enough to get the Milwaukee 28 volt kit that cost $1500 for $750 introductory offer. I used it maybe 40 times and now the batteries will not charge after not being used for 2 years. Marriage break up. Anyway should I stick to the same battery or upgrade if possible. I love this kit and want to use it again. Or should I sell it. It is still like brand new.
I have an old school Work robot mower with 6Ah regular Worx Powershare 20V battery. Landroid app shows me that the battery has made already 2000 full cycles and operates as a new one.
Great job and research. Appreciate all the work you and the team put into making this content. Really helpful since I'm in the market to buy new tools.
I bought 2x 5ah dewalt batteries for $113 better deal than powerstack. If I was going to buy some new batteries I'd get the 4ah compact model because fit better in tool bag.
Hey! Great vid! So you said the dealt xr is two gens behind the pouch one. So what came btwn them??? I’ve not seen any other labels that came after. Thanks! 👍🏼
For DiY your don’t need to over buy lots of packs, I have 15 tools that take my ONE DeWalt pack, but do buy packs of at least 4 AHr, especially for high drain tools because low capacity packs suffer significant voltage drop under heavy load and lower voltage means less power for your tool. It is different for tradies who might need to have several tools ready to pick up and use right away because charging time is often down time.
I have Milwaukee and dewalt batteries from 2016 that last as long as brand new equal ah batteries. I’m a mechanic that enjoys woodworking on weekends. Maybe there is a reason.
It would be interesting the ruggedness of these battery stack packs. Say for instance using an angle grinder which is high output. I dropped a cell on my hikoki 36 multi volt. I'm looking to get a cordless concrete grinder. I know hilti does one although not yet available in western australia. I may send hikoki a line and see what they can come up with. Or metabo and makita. I have the makita xgt 40 volt platfom and metabo. Great video Vince.
Thank you for enlightening me and the world about this substantial savings... I will now keep my eyes open to they types of batteries I am buying with my tool.
As a Laptop repair Tech since the mid 90's, I've NEVER seen any pouch cells last half as long as high quality cylindrical 18650 cells. Pouch cells have a tendency to heat and swell up every time they charge. This physically damages them and they fail within a couple of years. I've got laptops with 18650 cells over 10 yrs old that are STILL holding reasonable capacity. It's VERY difficult to take your argument seriously based on my experience. I also suggest that owners look into the newly available adapter plates that let you use batteries with different brands of drill so you can take advantage of discount sales !!
pouch cells have too many expansion issues if you want to have more lanes put more 18650's or 21700 cells in parallel in a pack handles the pressure better plastic will never beat steel in that regard.
To me this just goes back to the right tool for the right job just like any other situation if you were a tradesmen and you charge these batteries every day or multiple times a day the power stack cells probably make a lot of sense for you. However, if you are a DI wire or just somebody who works around the house or only uses your tools, three times you’re probably better off going with the cheaper battery because it’s still probably going to outlast the warranty. Just my two cents.
VCG CONSTRUCTION Vince God bless everyone 🙏🇺🇸 I actually had to delete my comment because I should have watched the whole video first because if I wanted to do that it answered my question. Thank you brother brother
I now have the dewalt 4, 6, 8, 9 flex, and 5 pouch and the 6 and the 5 pouch are the strongest witht the 5 pouch being the most power dense. My only complaint is i bought a flexvolt saw that wont take the other batteries so i cant see how they do on the same saw.
Are battery brands interchangeable between tool brands? I am a Dewalt Junkie, but their batteries cost more than simply purchasing a new tool. The Flex battery is intriguing. Also, what about quality? We are told how poor Chinese quality is, but one has to wonder if battery cells and/or pouches aren't coming from the same manufacturers. Tom from Springfield Delco now in Seattle, enjoying listening to a homeboy! Thanks, Bro!
WIth these newer cells they introduce proprietary communication protocols to get higher power draw so while you can use adapters you will likely suffer the normal draw rate not the high output version so at that point just save your $$$ and buy the cheapest batteries with an adapter and call it a day unless you have a super high draw application that makes the difference. This is something the government should take up there is so much waste in the industry even within the same umbrella company (TTC, SBD, Chervon, etc) they use different comm protocols or physical connections on purpose so you are locked into a system.
I subscribed to this channel after watching a handful of vids the last 10 days or so. Many TH-cam channels have content that I love, I love working with my hands, tools, carpentry, finishing carpentry, automotive, electrical etc. SO many of these channels are let's just say, "tits on a bull". This channel has USEFUL topics, doesn't "sugar coat" ANYTHING and can be funny while doing it. Thank you for giving us viewers your time and effort, it has educated me alot.
I question the charge cycle counts based on the idea of the type of usage. Example - Grinders cutting heavy gauge metal are high demand and heat the batteries up fast or a Lawnmower, same example. Where a light puts very little demand on the battery and, in theory, should last longer. As to number charges, many a Milwaukee is only capable of a maximum of 1,200 charges at moderate usage, where a German Metabo is in the 2,000 + charge range at moderate usage. The point is, in my opinion, the conversation is way more complicated than what has been presented. Cool video, and I think you should expand on this conversation, Vince.
I agree that cylindrical cell packs get extremely hot under heavy load with grinder use. Because of the efficiency of pouch we won’t see the same damage done by these higher draw tools.
German Metabo was at the forefront of battery technology and helped develop the 21700 cylindrical cells. They definitely incorporated more cooling to get more wattage in and out of the cells more efficiently which leads to much longer pack life. Met with their director of Marketing a few years back at their office not far from us, he really opened my eyes about battery technology. Some of the stuff he talked about years ago is just now starting to make sense in the bigger picture.
I do think that having good experiences in high performance FPV would be valuable when understanding pouched lithium batteries, and do think we should all expect to see a lot more houses burn down because too many people won't know how to care for them and know when they should be retired.
I love how you “nerd out” on tools. Your knowledge on them is quite impressive. However, your math is a little off. If a cylindrical cell battery has a lifespan of 400 charges, x 300 = 120,000 for the lithium packs. Making the flat pack lithium batteries an even better choice than what you stated. Keep putting out the great videos!
Those are marketing numbers not field numbers. I am sure when we come back in 5-7 years (if these still exist) the marketing to reality will be different.
It's cheaper to rebuild 18650 format battery packs than it costs to rebuild flat lithium polymer batteries. If you just practice good battery charge management, you will experience a 300% charge cycle life like I do with my Ryobi 18v batteries. 300 charge cycles OEM and I get close to 1200 charge cycles before I start to have life cycle regression.
I have watched the whole video and 21700 cell battery weren't mentioned. I have heard that some batteries with 21700 cells perform better than pouch based ones...
Your USING the WRONG Tape Measure!
th-cam.com/video/6P-w6OCb9uY/w-d-xo.html
Nope!
Ever since I've came across that Lufkin measuring tape, I won't buy any other. I've had em all and that's the best brand 'Tape' I've had. As rough as I am on tapes, they last me longer than any other. 🤘🏽
I choose the Stanley Fat Max autolock. I keep 3 handy because one never knows where the other 2 might wander off... If a blade gets bent its time for a new tape because I need my 3 tapes to cross reference each other. The fat max tapes have always been good to me.
3 tapes
1 for the marking area
1 for the cutting area
1 as a floater
They play a shell game together too!
*You’re
Comparing full retail to full retail, the math makes sense to buy the pouch lithium, but with so many good deals where you get free batteries, I'm not so sure. I bought a Milwaukee M18 Fuel SAWZALL that came with 2 of the 6.0HO's and 1 of the 8.0HO's for $269 at HD. The SAWZALL is normally $200, so I got the 3 batteries for $69. Those 3 batteries will get about as many charges as the Forge battery (about 1200). The Forge 6.0 costs $179. So the 3 HO batteries end up being $0.06 per charge vs. $0.15 per charge for the Forge. I think there's still some value to be gotten from the HO batteries if you find them on sale or in bundles.
You can also buy the big ticket tool with the batteries on sale. Then sell the tool at a discount
then you get the batteries almost free.
Do the math.
Yep, all of my batteries have came in bundles.
For the DIY stuff I do these days (not nearly as frequently as back in the day), the DeWalts I have, have held up great. I have 4-6AH XR's that are 4-8 years old now that still perform. I've only ever had one fail on me. If I need new ones, I would probably try the Power Stacks. We'll see when we start some big projects at my son's new house this summer! I'll also get to play with his Milwaukee tools to see how I like them. Higher battery capacity also means you need fewer batteries, less weight to lug around, and less room taken up in your boxes!
I use both DeWalt and Milwaukee on 7 work trailers and 2 HVAC step vans and I have no problems with both brands and my guys like both as well …🇺🇸👊🏼👊🏼🪚🔨
Good stuff. I think your math terms are a bit off. If you have 300 charge cycles vs 1200 charge cycles you have 4 times the charge cycles, not 400 times more charge cycles. If you had 400 times more charge cycles you'd have 120,000 charge cycles. Still, very good info to know about the flat pack differences vs. cylindrical cells.
@@FredD63 I've only tried one of his impacts & drills. Seemed fine, was just awkward to have to push an electronic button to select/reverse speed. Guess It's what you're used to. I prefer the mechanical switches.
@@jayg6857 He meant 300% - 400% more. He misspoke.
So I have now have hourly job chargers and bid job chargers, got it! 😀 - I will say I didn’t trust “Pouch” tech for a while now, especially in my Large 100ah 12v batteries, this makes me rethink that..
I'm not sure I can take advise from someone wearing only two pairs of glasses. I like to see at least three or preferably four pairs worn before I'm convinced.
@srhintz also i mostly belive a men who is much louder than that one and also preferably it have to have bigger muscles
😂😂
@@danijelmaerek4406 Yes, I vastly prefer full tilt Roid Rage over this paltry "heavily caffienated and an 8 ball of coke"" vibe.
Did bro mention Ridgid in the beginning and then not at all for the rest of the video???
Thank you for making videos like this because although I already know this I see a lot of people shopping for tools who are lost or confused and do not know what to buy they often just buy what can be easily found and when I started out I watched all your videos before spending any big amount of money and I learned so much from you so no matter what the haters say you are helping people out here I am just one example
Glad you like the Nick, thanks!
most of my batteries were purchased prior to the pouch being out. I have bought more cylindrical cell batteries since but that because of the killer deals. I run mobile service and install for generators and can't always plug in so more batteries is better to me than fast recharge. I will start buying them when I see deals on them but that will likely be a while.
Invest in a 2000 watt inverter to run your chargers from your vehicle battery when no power is available. 😉
With the LSA from Ridgid when the battery fails you get a new battery from the manufacturer. I find that to be useful.
Great video. As a casual DIYer, most years consist of me having to remember to charge my batteries at least once a year to avoid them slipping out of residual charge. However I'm always pleasantly surprised when the battery indicators typically still show fully charged but it's always good to check.
Other years where my tools actually get used I may charge them up to 5 times.
A 400x charge life cycle will definitely outlast my time on this planet.
The biggest fear of every cordless tool customer would probably be the inevitability of the manufacturers deciding to discontinue current battery types making our current tools obsolete.
Something I believe helps batteries last longer is don’t leave them charging if they’re charged. Take them off the charger and don’t let them die all the way
Any good charger doesnt apply voltage to a full cell.
There is something to be said about full depletion, but the tools also dont fully deplete the cells. A fully depleted li-ion is a hazard and most chargers wont charge an "undervolt cell"
Pouch cell technology comes from the drone market/RC market. For drones, power to weight matters, and the heaviest thing is the battery. Batteries really have a "C" rating, which denotes the power rating. 1C = 1×C(capacity Ah) so a 5.0Ah cell @ 1C = 5.0 amp max output and .5 amp max charging. Standard for a cylindrical cell is 3C. Standard for a pouch would be 10-15C but goes over 30C.
Modern chargers shouldn’t be a problem. I have five Dewalt chargers and roughly a dozen batteries. They all get rotated but I leave a battery on every charger 24/7. Some batteries get lost for months at a time. Been doing this for years and haven’t lost a battery yet. Two no longer hold a full charge but I’d attribute that to them being at least 10 years old. The “youngest” battery I have is at least six or seven years old.
Lithium cells suffer if kept always at full charge. It reduces their life cycles…only charge above 60% if you intend to use it very soon. This does not apply to tradies, because they always need a full charge for work and replacing a battery sooner is just a consumable work expense to them, an acceptable outlay every other year.
you're absolutely correct! lion batteries last longest when kept between 20-80%. they also like being charged in bursts: leave it on for 30 minutes, take it off for a bit, and repeat.
Macbooks actually do this: they can limit charging to 80% and if you need it to go to 100% will charge slowly for the last 20%
Milwaukee owns lithium ion technology. So they will obviously always be one step ahead of everyone else always
Cylinder cells are going to be heavier and bigger. However, a few companies are producing packs with 21700 tabless cells. They shouldn't have issues with heat, charge/discharge speed, but they're still going to take up more space and they'll be a little heavier, seeing as they're each inside an aluminum casing. However, the pouch cells might not last as long, depending on the pack itself. Pouch cells swell and expand as they age. If they're stored properly, so they can't expand too much, they could be better, given weight and space. Cylinder cells do a good job of containing the chemistry and prevent expansion.
I heard that a 12.0 Forge is coming out using cylinder tabless cells. Agree that pouch cells do expand. I've seen it happen in a couple different devices.
@@daifeichu ya, I think cylinders are just tougher and don't have as many issues with temperature. But they cant compete with the space efficiency of pouch cells.
Pouch cells are mostly a scam. There’s reasons a company like Tesla will go out of their way to design custom cells, but stick with cylinders. That “extra” weight from the surrounding metal isn’t extra. It transfers the heat to the sides of the battery.
Pouch cells only work well in thin systems like phones and laptops. Stack a bunch on top of each other like they do in tool batteries and the internal temps will get out of control after just a short time of use. The solution for this is shoving metal layers between pouches to transfer heat, but that negates a lot of the advantages.
Cylinder cells using standard sizes are serviceable at battery shops potentially giving a lot more years of use.
Bosch skipped pouch batteries in favor of tabless and I think you’re correct about that being the best way forward.
@@mrbigberd I wouldn't call them a scam lol! But they certainly have some drawbacks. If they can get a better chemistry in there, they could be superior. They DO have greater energy density, as they can use near if not 100% of the volume.
@@dpjazzy15 The chemistry in cylinders has also improved over the years. The energy density doesn't seem like it's any better in a practical sense because of the cooling issue.
They build up heat in the core of the battery that hurts discharge rates and lowers the battery's overall charge cycles. Notice that the really big batteries haven't been released yet as they have even worse heat buildup issues.
The tech could take over one day, but most of the claimed stuff is just marketing (eg, DeWalt marketing). Why don't their 21700 batteries have as many charge cycles? because they didn't want to pay for that level of performance. 50% more power? Not vs tabbed batteries like Bosch's new core+. 50% more efficient? Also not vs tabbed batteries.
I think there's a LOT of potential for pouch batteries in the sub-4ah form factor though as these are thin enough to dissipate heat without the need for lots of cooling between cells. Milwaukee, Ridgid, or Bosch 12v in particular could benefit a lot from shoving a bit more battery into the handle or making the handle a bit thinner.
YOU ARE BY FAR THE VERY MOST PROFESIONAL INSTRUCTORI HAVE EVER HEARD OF, AND YOU ARE DOING ALL THIS MONEY SAVING TEACHING FOR FREE? THANKS VERY MUCH, GOD BLESS YOU!
Just glad the information is helpful, THANKS!
Dewalt tool user here. The ONLY time I buy kits is if I can verify that not only is the battery worth owning, but the charger as well. Since I have hit the tipping point as a cordless tool owner, I own the highest amp chargers (fanless) along with a mix of Powerstack and 21700's. A few of my lower amp cylindrical cells (4A and 5A) literally never get used and should be sold. Thanks Vince for another video with great information.
I've been using power tools since Makita's 9 volt power drill in the early eighties, now I've decided to start buying Flex after using three major brands for the last 42 years. The first Flex batteries had to be replaced by manufacturer , well known issues. I seriously like the Flex tool and their warranty is very good. Hilti was a great tool that is highly expensive, but I did like their tools, some of the best made.
I knew the stack was better but didn't do the math on the flex on per charge, good vid
I would sometimes talk about this during livestreams and people asked me to do a stand alone video, I think it’s a worth while topic. Thanks Shawn!
What about the ridgid?? Bro gimme some love man!!
I've got Makita batteries that are over 12 years old & work just as good as the day I got them. I've used these to build houses & a lot of them. You treat your tools right & they'll do the job. Again, this guy is full of it!!!
@@thomasmelanson9739 this guy isn’t “full of it” he’s explaining the new battery technology, clearly you’re an old man who hates new tech. The reason your batteries lasted 12 years is because you don’t put em to good heavy duty use every day
What you're describing sounds like the Lithium Polymer batteries we use in RC models.
It does. And it seems like they would be more volatile than the cylindrical cells. I'd be interested to see the safety comparison and the track record since release.
yes similar tech has been going in cheap Chinese electronics that normally would have used an 18650 or other cylindrical variant. they can fit higher energy per area and output, but they don't last as long. thinking it's gonna happen here too
Great video sir…,so I just bought a Milwaukee mower….comes with 2-HO 12 batteries ( both are needed to run the mower) so I’m looking at buying 2 extra batteries.
Would you recommend two more HO 12’s? Or 2 Forge? ( at additional cost)
My current HO 12’s fall just short of my cutting needs ( about 10 mins) so need to charge to finish.
That said, if I understand you correctly, the Forge will accept more charges over and over again….so if I spring first the new Forge batteries, would I make those my “ first run” batteries, and save the HO as the “ second run” for those extra 10 mins of need. Thus, charging the HO less frequently, since it would only get 10 mins of use each cut…( assuming I deplete the Forge each cut fully)
Thank you for your comments in advance.
Im in the market for a new drill and impact driver and i had no idea the battery difference and the costs per charge cycle.
great video for pros and joes ... keep up the great work your doing...
Glad I could help, thanks!
I'm in the IT field, I was well aware of it when I heard there was talk of a Milwaukee pouch style battery coming out. I knew exactly what field of tech it came from so I was excited! Thanks for the video! Hopefully with more exposure they'll sell more and the price will go down
Right on
Great video. Most high end laptop batteries are now pouch li-Ion. I'm an EE and can attest that the lower internal series resistance helps ALOT for high power (current) needs like tools. Milliohms makes a difference and is a major reason why Tesla bought Maxwell Technologies in 2019 since EV's batteries push/pull 70-200A vs 2-20A for a tool.
I must have a dozen of 6 amp DeWalts in a pile that don't work. The issue is when they get wet it fry's out the electronics in the battery. I wish they made them waterproof. Good video!
I was waiting for someone to mention this on DeWalts.
Between the shop floor at the company I worked for (100 cordless’s, changing brands about once every year or two) friends and my brother inlaws pile of dead DeWalt batteries, to me it’s so obvious DeWalt batteries don’t last.
Coincidence? Am I missing something?
those dead batteries are pretty easy to repair, just fyi
@@chrisboucher9916 I'll send them to you, what's your address.
Does Ridgid have batteries with pouch technology? If so which is which? You had them sitting out there but never talked about them.
Vince, great video!! I'm a black &yellow guy but it's awesome to see everyone is going pack. I really was living in a bubble because I thought only dewalt had the packs. It was just more in my face, props to dewalt for the name power stack and visual on the battery. But like you pointed out it's hard to tell on the other lines who is stacked. Great video. I love the cost breakdown, I never knew you could get that much more life out if them. Thanks I'm sold on them now even more than ever. Now that HD and Lowes are giving away free batteries with tools.
Keep up the great work in front camera and the people behind the scenes, thanks for making it all happen.
I'm just hoping my old lady don't come home from work and see this. She's always shopping for new more powerful ah tools. She got a whole dresser drawer stuffed full of her ah tools...
The “watts out” you’re attempting to describe is referred to as a battery’s ‘C-rating’. It’s the battery’s discharge and charge capability, based on the current it can produce. This is why these pouch-style batteries can run larger tools, they can supply much higher amperage.
The Samsung 21700size, 40T model - remain the superior choice as lithium battery.
"Superior" means that the 40T keeps its capacity, it's impedance and its high terminal voltage for a minimum of eight years and/or 500 cycles.
Sadly, this is not true of many other cell brands, the kind of tool batteries you find in bargain-bin at the tool shop. A pouch cell is a better choice over non-branded cylindrical cells.
In general, pouch cells are cheaper to manufacture, and have an initial lower impedance than cylindrical cells. They are physically more prone to damage - you kill them by charging them at low temperature (below 15 °F), but they are smaller and lighter than their cylindrical counterparts, as they lack the steel casing - replaced with a pouch made with aluminium foil...
Nice one Vince, I didn't know about the forge line of batteries to be honest. I always thought the high output was the way to go, I'm glad you made this video!
Glad to help
The best price I could find for Milwaukee Forge batteries was $200 each @ 20% off vs. 172.27 for the high output @ 25% off courtesy of Amazon. (Yes, I know about Amazon counterfeits and Milwaukee's warranty policies)
In the Philippines, they prefer the one with cylindrical batteries so they can replace it with new ones once the old one goes bad with a help of a technician.
Dude, you didn't talk about Ridgid? Was it there just as a prop??? Thats the only reason I watched the video and you didn't even run the numbers on Ridgid, do they even offer a pouch alternative?
@@tobyhall1167 that's the only reason I watched the video to,all my tools are ridgid, seems like all videos now are click bait
Also not to mention on the subject of getting more and more charges with the pouch lithium. I have multiple 5ah XR batteries from 2019-2020. Charged many many times. I have never had a battery dwindle away at a rate worth noticing. It’s always failure from a drop, randomly quit charging, stuff like that. Although I can only recall 2 2ah batteries that I’ve had fail, 1 3ah and 1 flex volt 9ah. All of them did the same thing. Quit charging.
Very informative video, I get the point about charge cycles and the lifetime cost of the battery, however in the UK they are still priced too high vs HO.
6.0ah forge 250% more ££ than a 5.5ah (EU version of 6.0HO). They’re also 120% more ££ than 12ah HO.
In terms of lifecycle cost they look very attractive vs 12ah but pitched against the 5.5ah (6ahHO) they are only 25% cheaper per cycle.
But I can afford to have two 5.5ah batteries for the price on one 6ah Forge. This halves the lifecycle cost of the 5.5ah as I’m splitting the load between two batteries making the 5.5 effectively 60% cheaper per cycle.
I’ve been using the dewalt powerstack they are very good I have now swapped all my dewalt battery’s to powerstack
Sweet, how you liking them so far?
@@VCGConstruction they hold up really well last very well can’t fault them one bit
Excellent break down! I am mad because I bought several DeWalt 4AH batteries just the other month, at least though I want through my friend who is a rep and got them on the "cheaper" side. I am picking up a couple Powerstacks but I also have 2 FlexVolt 9AH batteries for my Flex 7 1/2 Circular saw and can use it on my blower and other DeWalt tools.
Another consideration though, for a DIY user, is that the pack may last as long as the lifespan of a lithium battery (even an unused battery will eventually not be able to hold a charge) so the lower number of charge cycles won’t matter.
The only thing I hate about flex is the chargers are so big man. Other then that great power I have been using flex for a couple years now no complaints here.
As it stands currently, I get most of my batteries during sales deals where the tool/batteries come together (Tool, 2 Batteries, Charger) often for less than the Tool or a Tool Battery ALONE costs.
I’ve got 9 batteries and only one was bought as just a battery … I have too many chargers if that’s possible …
I can see why Milwaukee Forge is 1:1 a “better” deal but, until they start packaging them into deals, I’ll continue to routinely carry 5 batteries and a charger in one of their freebie soft sided tool cases and run their Drill, Grinder, Circular &/or Sawzall, 1/2” Impact Hammer ALL DAY LONG without experiencing any Lack of Power.
When the deals begin I can see choosing deals that include Forge Batteries but the relatively small increases gained vs the much higher $ don’t get me past the economic “hump”.
How can you tell by looking at the battery if it’s packed/packet lithium or cylinder…or did I miss that part?
@@marlow769 product description? Either in the user manual/box or online in the description if you’re buying the battery online. I would assume…
Great video! Thanks for the info i am definitely going to go with the these newer battery packs on my next purchase. One thing, whats with the 2 pairs of glasses? Little weird.
No *ATG's comparisons with the rest dated batteries?
*we been using it for 2 years & are very pleased with ATG's adapter to IR & Ryobi tools.
*uses graphene batteries.
I just went out yesterday (Sunday) and bought one. Thanks Vince.
@VCG Vince doing HERO work 🦸🏻♂️🙌
Thanks cuz!
I’ve had Milwaukee 18v since 2012 . I’ve had 5 drills screw up . I have lots of their tools . I’m done with their drills going to try flex
I have a question, doesn't fast charge (or super charge) shortens life spam of the battery? I've seen videos about uber drivers super charge their car daily result in battery dying super early and having to be replaced. I'm wondering those 1200 cycle is normal charge or on super charge?
Vince, I’m a DIY hack. THANK YOU for the education and pulling back the curtain on battery power. Any recommendations on a YT channel that plainly and simply teaches how to build useful things around the house?
Hello again, Vince and Vcg
Thank you for another Great Video 👍 I enjoyed watching tonight's video 😊 Again thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it George, thanks for watching!
@@VCGConstruction You are most welcome ☺️
You should compare the discounted cost for charge and use cycles if buying up clearance cylindrical batteries at 25$ a pack is actually worth
@VCG Constuction , great video Vince much appreciated for the information you show on the new battery technologies and how the pouch cells work and it helps me explain to the wife how I can buy the new forge batteries for my Milwaukee tools and make it worth the while, so thank you for the great job you do at letting the uninformed learn at a simple pace with a easy explanation
Glad it was helpful!
Okay I didn't get to the end of the video so you may have covered this but you know it doesn't say flax or cylinder on the battery pack when you go look at it to buy it
I mean... Once I need more batteries, I'll consider it, but I have a shitload of cell batteries laying around, and they honestly work just fine. Once I pop a flexvolt into my "flexvolt advantage" DeWalt circ saw, that thing just goeeees
I have dewalt everything with some Milwaukee tools. The power stack is not my favorite at all. Big tools I need a 8ah or flex volt. And for my regular hand tools I find the power stack way to heavy and bulky compared to the XR 5ah. So for me. It’s either the 5ah XR or the flex volt system. I have no use for the power stack. I like the 1.7 powerstacks for doing drywall or something that doesn’t take lots of power. I like the light weight feel. But putting in deck screws. The 1.7 last 10 minutes if that.
We drone fliers use Lipo battery packs and it does pack a punch and does have a higher discharge rate. but we kill lipo (puffed) packs all the time. once one of the cell pack is puffed, the whole pack is done.. and it's a pain to replace as well. which is why we just chuck it out. don't know why they charging so much for these lipo packs. I would rather stick with 18650 or 21700 lion instead of lipo cells.
I'm interested where you found that cell batteries last 300-400 cycles maybe cheap ones yes but good quality is rated for 800 cycles. Plus it will be hard to repair it for affordable price when cells can be easily replaced. And pouches love to expand at sunny days when you not expect. :) I prefer just to buy empty battery shells and cells its cheaper plus i know what inside :D
Those Milwaukee super chargers are insane I got one, charges giant batteries in 20-25 min vs the old ones that take an hour +
Great details you shared & visually showed us the differences between the battery types! Keep educating us!
Thank you! Will do!
I was lucky enough to get the Milwaukee 28 volt kit that cost $1500 for $750 introductory offer. I used it maybe 40 times and now the batteries will not charge after not being used for 2 years. Marriage break up. Anyway should I stick to the same battery or upgrade if possible. I love this kit and want to use it again. Or should I sell it. It is still like brand new.
I have an old school Work robot mower with 6Ah regular Worx Powershare 20V battery. Landroid app shows me that the battery has made already 2000 full cycles and operates as a new one.
Great job and research. Appreciate all the work you and the team put into making this content. Really helpful since I'm in the market to buy new tools.
I bought 2x 5ah dewalt batteries for $113 better deal than powerstack. If I was going to buy some new batteries I'd get the 4ah compact model because fit better in tool bag.
Hey! Great vid! So you said the dealt xr is two gens behind the pouch one. So what came btwn them??? I’ve not seen any other labels that came after. Thanks! 👍🏼
For DiY your don’t need to over buy lots of packs, I have 15 tools that take my ONE DeWalt pack, but do buy packs of at least 4 AHr, especially for high drain tools because low capacity packs suffer significant voltage drop under heavy load and lower voltage means less power for your tool. It is different for tradies who might need to have several tools ready to pick up and use right away because charging time is often down time.
I have Milwaukee and dewalt batteries from 2016 that last as long as brand new equal ah batteries. I’m a mechanic that enjoys woodworking on weekends. Maybe there is a reason.
If it gives power faster . Doesn’t that mean the battery will die even faster ? This for meaning you would have to charge more
Youre a legend, this information is super important for people
One solution is to label peak and sustained power (in watts) as shown on the FLEX stacked lithium
It would be interesting the ruggedness of these battery stack packs. Say for instance using an angle grinder which is high output. I dropped a cell on my hikoki 36 multi volt. I'm looking to get a cordless concrete grinder. I know hilti does one although not yet available in western australia. I may send hikoki a line and see what they can come up with. Or metabo and makita. I have the makita xgt 40 volt platfom and metabo. Great video Vince.
Thank you for enlightening me and the world about this substantial savings... I will now keep my eyes open to they types of batteries I am buying with my tool.
As a Laptop repair Tech since the mid 90's, I've NEVER seen any pouch cells last half as long as high quality cylindrical 18650 cells.
Pouch cells have a tendency to heat and swell up every time they charge. This physically damages them and they fail within a couple of years.
I've got laptops with 18650 cells over 10 yrs old that are STILL holding reasonable capacity.
It's VERY difficult to take your argument seriously based on my experience.
I also suggest that owners look into the newly available adapter plates that let you use batteries with different brands of drill so you can take advantage of discount sales !!
Great Info! Not well known to the public, or at least me. Thanks !!
Thanks, appreciate it! 👍🏻
pouch cells have too many expansion issues if you want to have more lanes put more 18650's or 21700 cells in parallel in a pack handles the pressure better plastic will never beat steel in that regard.
Good information Vince. Thanks for sharing! 👍
Thanks for watching!
Hey Vince! great advice! I am DeGang team~!!!🙂😂🤣 But switched to stack ftw! IT just makes sense, and power! Keep the vids coming ma man!
You rock!
To me this just goes back to the right tool for the right job just like any other situation if you were a tradesmen and you charge these batteries every day or multiple times a day the power stack cells probably make a lot of sense for you. However, if you are a DI wire or just somebody who works around the house or only uses your tools, three times you’re probably better off going with the cheaper battery because it’s still probably going to outlast the warranty. Just my two cents.
VCG CONSTRUCTION Vince God bless everyone 🙏🇺🇸 I actually had to delete my comment because I should have watched the whole video first because if I wanted to do that it answered my question. Thank you brother brother
I now have the dewalt 4, 6, 8, 9 flex, and 5 pouch and the 6 and the 5 pouch are the strongest witht the 5 pouch being the most power dense.
My only complaint is i bought a flexvolt saw that wont take the other batteries so i cant see how they do on the same saw.
Yep, we been using “pouch” style lithium in R/C car racing due to the higher output capabilities
DeWalt started it. When will DeWalt come out with a 60 volt powerstack flexvolt battery?
Do your calculations include the cost of power used to charge? This would be usefull if you were comparing to corded tools.
I'm guessing that the cost per charge cycle analysis doesn't apply to Ridgid, since their batteries (under Ridgid's LSA) never expire.
Are battery brands interchangeable between tool brands? I am a Dewalt Junkie, but their batteries cost more than simply purchasing a new tool. The Flex battery is intriguing. Also, what about quality? We are told how poor Chinese quality is, but one has to wonder if battery cells and/or pouches aren't coming from the same manufacturers.
Tom from Springfield Delco now in Seattle, enjoying listening to a homeboy! Thanks, Bro!
WIth these newer cells they introduce proprietary communication protocols to get higher power draw so while you can use adapters you will likely suffer the normal draw rate not the high output version so at that point just save your $$$ and buy the cheapest batteries with an adapter and call it a day unless you have a super high draw application that makes the difference. This is something the government should take up there is so much waste in the industry even within the same umbrella company (TTC, SBD, Chervon, etc) they use different comm protocols or physical connections on purpose so you are locked into a system.
I subscribed to this channel after watching a handful of vids the last 10 days or so. Many TH-cam channels have content that I love, I love working with my hands, tools, carpentry, finishing carpentry, automotive, electrical etc. SO many of these channels are let's just say, "tits on a bull". This channel has USEFUL topics, doesn't "sugar coat" ANYTHING and can be funny while doing it. Thank you for giving us viewers your time and effort, it has educated me alot.
Thanks we appreciate the kind words!
I question the charge cycle counts based on the idea of the type of usage. Example - Grinders cutting heavy gauge metal are high demand and heat the batteries up fast or a Lawnmower, same example. Where a light puts very little demand on the battery and, in theory, should last longer. As to number charges, many a Milwaukee is only capable of a maximum of 1,200 charges at moderate usage, where a German Metabo is in the 2,000 + charge range at moderate usage. The point is, in my opinion, the conversation is way more complicated than what has been presented. Cool video, and I think you should expand on this conversation, Vince.
I agree that cylindrical cell packs get extremely hot under heavy load with grinder use. Because of the efficiency of pouch we won’t see the same damage done by these higher draw tools.
German Metabo was at the forefront of battery technology and helped develop the 21700 cylindrical cells. They definitely incorporated more cooling to get more wattage in and out of the cells more efficiently which leads to much longer pack life. Met with their director of Marketing a few years back at their office not far from us, he really opened my eyes about battery technology. Some of the stuff he talked about years ago is just now starting to make sense in the bigger picture.
@VCGConstruction That's awesome. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at that meeting.
When do you think dewalt might come out with an 8 10 or 12 ah pouch battery?
Exactly. That's why I would buy the cylindrical batteries.
I've never used a High Output Milwaukee battery but would like to use a FORGE battery after viewing this video.
Where are you getting these batteries? One flex 6 ah battery stacked is 250 bucks
Will the older, lower-powered chargers still charge the pouch batteries; albeit, slower, or does one need to purchase a new charger (expensive)?
Yes, they’re backwards compatible
Nice breakdown. I’m wondering when we’re gonna see flexvolt stackpacks. Seems like the next logical step for DeWalt.
Great point!
I do think that having good experiences in high performance FPV would be valuable when understanding pouched lithium batteries, and do think we should all expect to see a lot more houses burn down because too many people won't know how to care for them and know when they should be retired.
I use craftsman v20 batteries amd I love them. I have
2 2ah
3 or 4 4ah.
5 tools. And I love the craftsman v20 line!
I love how you “nerd out” on tools. Your knowledge on them is quite impressive. However, your math is a little off. If a cylindrical cell battery has a lifespan of 400 charges, x 300 = 120,000 for the lithium packs. Making the flat pack lithium batteries an even better choice than what you stated.
Keep putting out the great videos!
300 percent more, 3 times is what I meant to say, Sorry I was unclear!
Those are marketing numbers not field numbers. I am sure when we come back in 5-7 years (if these still exist) the marketing to reality will be different.
I love coming to TH-cam to see infomercials
So are the new lithium batteries better or the older generation better You're trying to save the new lithium flat cell batteries are better correct
Love your deep dives and information.
This is only correct if you dont consider tabless zylindrical cells like the upcoming bosch pro core plus.
The 9Ah Flexvolt was able to. It's weird but, they have just now been able to surpass it with the Power Pack. 🤷♂️
It's cheaper to rebuild 18650 format battery packs than it costs to rebuild flat lithium polymer batteries. If you just practice good battery charge management, you will experience a 300% charge cycle life like I do with my Ryobi 18v batteries. 300 charge cycles OEM and I get close to 1200 charge cycles before I start to have life cycle regression.
I bought the new dual port super charger with an M18 6.0 Forge battery for 299.00 at Acme Tool in February
Nice, how’s it working for you?
It's working great
Awesome Lemuel, thanks for the feedback!
I have watched the whole video and 21700 cell battery weren't mentioned. I have heard that some batteries with 21700 cells perform better than pouch based ones...
Do you need a special charger for the newer batteries
All backwards compatible
You could also buy 3rd party batteries and use corded tools when you need power
I wish I have known this a couple weeks ago. just bought several 12.0 batteries. I would have bought the new forge.