Making A Demo
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
- I talk about the single most important thing you can do to hone your skills and get a job in the game industry: make a demo.
Videos I reference
How to Get a Job in the Game Industry: • How to Get a Job in th...
Learning Lessons From Failure: • Learning Lessons From ...
School vs. Self-Taught: • School vs. Self-Taught
School As Preparation For Game Development: • School As Preparation ...
Moral of the story, if you want to be mum's favorite, make a demo
“Make a demo” makes so much sense to me. It’s basically just showing a potential employer that you have the ability, know-how and straight-up proof that you’re suitable for the job
Making a demo is also about "finishing". Finishing things is itself a skill that needs to be displayed in an interview, and it's also really difficult. There's a reason there's a lot of half-baked game demos out there :)
@@iwantagoodnameplease good point
If you don't know how to make a demo, make a demo
You joke but that's exactly right.
Step 1: Have five kids.
Step 2: Evaluate said kids.
Step 3: Make a demo game.
Got it.
Instructions unclear
Summoned a demon
@@felipebisi4145 😂😂😂
Tim's parents made three demos before beginning full development. Reviews are mixed on the official release, but critics at least like the "Tim" DLC.
I enjoy your comment
Tim, you might feel that your writing skills are lacking but let me say that your ability to tie your experiences together into cohesive, entertaining and educational talks is unrivalled. You are an excellent teacher and mentor. If you're just "talking around" notes, you certainly have the gift of the gab :)
"Learn how to learn". A lot of truth in that.
It's one of the hardest parts of education in my experience. Creating a system that let's you retain knowledge and how to apply it.
Because it can be a very individual thing after all.
Some people learn by absorbing written texts. Others by using mnemonics. A third group need to "learn by doing" to get it to stick.
Some have to write a lot of notes.
This channel is blowing up for lots of reasons but I especially love Tim's emphasis to "DO" things and "MAKE" things. Ideas are just vaporware.
'Ideas are just vaporware' is so good, holy shit!
Coming from a different field: I'm reminded of things one of my favorite art professors insisted we do - sketch. Sketches aren't finished works. They're ideas. I'm not talking concept art or anything like that. I mean genuine maybe making a fragment of a person, or the gesture of movement. This was from a high end drawing and composition and life drawing professor. People left his classes crying OR tempered to do better. Yes, there were the assignments he gave that were to be done but he also insisted that we play, as in sketch and keep sketching to develop both a problem solving mindset as well as the endurance for long drawing and being able to put in work equivalent to a regular work week. He would also use the analogy of, "Do you think a world class opera singer doesn't warm up their voice?"
This is my take away from the idea of demos for programmers/game makers, as it is a method to sketch out ideas before even making alpha builds (I may be using this term incorrectly).
This is 100% true not just for game programming but any kind of programming. I'm a senior programmer w/ over 25 years' experience in b2b and web apps, and have done a lot of interviewing and hiring, and I will ABSOLUTELY hire the self-taught person with a demo site/apps over someone with a degree and no demo. The industry changes so fast anyway that whatever you have a degree in is going to be mostly obsolete within 5 years anyway, so it's far more important to show you can learn on your own and figure out how to make stuff than just that you could pass some tests once.
It's true for a lot more besides - artists and writers benefit tremendously from creating portfolios, which are in a sense demos. One of the other benefits that Tim didn't touch on is that if you make a demo, it shows you can stick with something to completion. That's a huge benefit when being evaluated by employers.
I appreciate that you put so much effort into answering these questions.
Especially when its something like "how do i get a job in the games industry" when the answer is the same as every job, develop relevant skills and apply 😄
Oh and make a demo.
Hi Tim, I’m sure the stories you tell endlessly to us is just a demo to the one your dog hears 😂 love your vids much love.
I had the Fallout demo the summer of 1997 and played it over and over again, getting different outcomes and finding different ways to get there.
Imagine how psyched I was to open the full game Christmas morning!
It really makes sense. One example that comes to mind is Project Wingman. The guy basically made a demo before a kickstarter and the Ace Combat Community ate it up instantly. It was great. The end result was also amazing.
A demo is great because it's something tangible to show and it also forces you to prototype the gameplay.
I released a demo for my game, and it went viral.
I learnt immediately about 3 crash buhs from lers plays. Extremely stressful weekend, and insanely valuable data.
Wishlists also exploded.
Which one? Is it in your channel?
If you're afraid of job interviews like I am I have an advice:
Get on as much job interviews as you can. You will get firsthand experience that many job interviews ask more or less the same questions. You will know what to expect on your next job interview and you can come prepared. Also job interviews reveal gaps in your knowledge. So if you fail one you will most likely know why and its a great opportunity to fill that gap.
On topic of self-taught vs education. I was self-taught but job interviews revealed that my knowledge was very disorganized. So to fix this I've attended 3 month long course that sorted garbage pile of my random knowledge into usable structure and after that I was able to land a job easily.
Also as a part of a course it was required to "make a demo". Making a demo and talking in front of everyone why some approaches were chosen vs some different ones was very beneficial.
Premium advice, dude! Be fearless (even if you don't feel it inside), humble and learn from your mistakes (which you have to be prepared to make first!)!
It has been unfortunately very hard to get interviews for me, I’ve had like 3 in the past year, and one of them was because I knew someone.
Also I have been in the industry for 4 years and people have been saying I got a lot of experience based on my resume 😅 so the lack of interviews is certainly a bit puzzling
Found this channel recently, it’s a big chest of knowledge, thank you for what are you doing❤
I’m not a game dev, or anywhere close to being in the industry. I think that these insights are just valuable to know how it all works, and your advice is applicable to a lot of different aspects of life.
The Dunning-Krueger effect is something I always thought about but never knew what it was called. That’s awesome. Thanks Tim!
Parents won’t stop fighting? Make a demo
Can't get enough of these videos! I appreciate how much thought you put into your messages and how clearly you lay them out.
Instructions unclear, made a complete game
Something i thought about is even though i have never really had the aptitude for game development i find your videos have a lot of advice that carries over quite well to other fields and this one in particular is great advice, creating a demo, draft or an example piece in most fields will almost always be to your benefit
Instructions unclear, now i am mom's favorite
Ayy LMAO
So my family age gaps are more or less exactly the same, and I'm also kid 5.
My parents used to joke that kid 4 was "the accident" and kid 5 (me) was "someone to play with the accident"
I've been a week away from making my demo for a month. There are soooo many things that go into building games, and I'm really hoping that my demo will show to employers how capable I am in game development. Thank you Mr. Cain!
Absolutely! Trying to make a demo 10 years ago made me realize that I had no clue how to make a demo. I identified a long list of skills I needed to work on. Tried again. Got further, but realized with better accuracy where my weak spots were. Spent a few years on those weak spots. I'm definitely better at making demos now, but still have a ways to go! It's a life long journey for me, personally, and I'm totally okay with that.
It’s been nice seeing a small resurgence in demos lately, companies would really do themselves a big favor by releasing demos for their bigger games. It’s the sole reason I ended up buying Final Fantasy 16.
What are you saying? Temple of Elemental Evil had amazing writing! Those oneliners in conversations always cracked me up!
Nahhh I think am going to binge watch more TH-cam tutorials XD
To be honest "make a demo" is really good advice because it almost sounds like an order and the hardest thing is to start. The only I would stress is to have a goal when you do a demo, because without scope it can go out of hand.
I've seen a lot of people make the mistake of thinking it's not okay to talk about the things you're bad at. In my experience, employers really respect it, as long as it's not the thing you're applying for.
It proves you have the self-awareness to know what you're good at, and lends more weight when you talk about what you're good at.
In the interviews I've been a part of, I will ask them what they're bad at if they don't say it themselves.
This applies for everything in life, and as an artist this made me realize that I have to make a demo (for art commissions)
"You don't know you reached the top of the mountain until you down the other side"
Burns like a Shishkebab
Hi Tim, I'm recently back as a listener - man how I love listening to you. You pass on so many info and still clearly communicate, everything is so clear. I'm an artist type person, not interested in programming and such - love Fallout 1 and 2 for all the incredible amount of things you can do in it, also the blend of the dark atmosphere and the sarcastic, dark humor, the interesting characters, the visuals, everything.
I'm not good at asking very specific questions, so I'll just skip that part.
All the best: Zoltan
Lol daaang, that moment with the other kids. As the last kid myself I will remember to use those lines should the opportunity present itself.
Speaking of demos, I told a friend a couple weeks ago about the game idea. Though I plan to try the greyboxing idea. If I cannot make the greyboxing fun and solid enough, then I do not have what it takes to make a game. Simple as that.
On a big sidenote, with an average video lenght of 10mins you already made about 57 hours of content , including the three long interviews its even closer to more than 60h.
Does this qualify as an online course I can use as a reference now? :D
Hell yeah Tim, i will finish that demo!
Make a Demo is the simplest answer but the most impact. Can’t tell you how many times heard loglines, just show the Demo it’ll give you so much more visibility. Also, it’ll help you with your games scope & look. It’s worth the effort.
This is great advice, and I’d argue can apply outside of games too. Now it is time I make another demo 😀
Ha! You're a funny guy Tim. I'd love to see a vid with you and one of your siblings. Great advice btw
Or any other person. Just be fun to see you interact
HI Tim! This is a two-part question: 1.) Could you touch on how you objectively learned what you're "bad" at and 2.) how did you know when to quit/never do X thing again (like long-form writing)? I ask because you create a project, you have data from beta testers and/or the general public but in many cases there's a hefty time/resource cost to get to that point. Being able to gauge whether you should keep going or stop before sunk cost fallacy kicks in would be a huge help.
I have the same answer for both questions: constructive feedback. I did tasks and received feedback I trusted. When the feedback showed I was not improving at a certain type of task, I decided to do other types of tasks instead.
@@CainOnGames That's...incredibly straightforward. Seeking (and using) constructive feedback would mean knowing exactly where the goal line is and going only that far (instead of endlessly "rabbit-holing"). Thank you!
That's such a sibling comment XD Brother makes the mountain comment. After saying wow, very first thing "First of all he's wrong..." :}
Kid 4 is ruthless! 😂
Here’s the thing with animation I have heard so many folk oh use assets, use place holders and out the gates I want my pilot to be air tight in quality, never saying the quality won’t improve as the series goes on but I am not cutting corners we’re building everything from scratch I take all that I need to into account n there r a lot of things with 3D you gotta account for but it never stops me I will continue to make my series greenlit or not, however with a game I feel it is the only medium I can go okay let’s make the first level and see if we could find people who are interested. If not I still want to conquer that buyer or not demos and animatics always feel rather like copping out in some instances and I can’t stand devs who go I woulda made this whole thing if only the funding or only the team backing when you can do it all yourself, I want to build my own game engine I may tap out at some point n just use the coding for Houdini Maya & unity or whatever but that’s where yah if u can make a demo with a engine u built from scratch that’s way more understandable then just one level in unreal, but yah it’s just so nice we Iive in a time where I can go online and find a $65 open Gl book for free n just start reading so I can be ahead of the game when I take those classes it’s a lot to learn because your one person doing an entire network of peoples jobs but that I’m retaining atleast 45% of every chapter on a first glance is really great to me. It feels like more of a trade type of thing where being in a academic envoirment I won’t thrive but I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels that way n I’m sure there r alternatives and or if you do enough research yourself those college classes will seem like nothing. It’s just deciding to do that with your time and to have a passion for that stuff I don’t think I ever could have had passion for programming without your vids so thanks!
Take a shot when Tim says demo...
Love these videos 👍🏻😊
i love your room
Tim, learned a lot from you thank you but my greatest take away, don't halfass any job... not gonna ask for 4 weeks for a 2hr job lol
Good morning, Tim
It's us, everyone
i will make that demo
Hey Tim, do you think in this case there's more value in making a large number of demos (i.e. exploring different genres you like, working in 2D and 3D, etc.) or producing one or two larger, more complex/finely tuned/more detailed demos? Loving the videos, always got some fantastic insights.
Yeah, I think this video needs a part 2. It doesn't go into what a good demo should really be looking to show off.
Personally I don't care so much about the size/scope of a demo when assessing other devs, as long as it looks polished and mostly finished in a way, as in not full of obvious bugs, doesn't crash, has a clear goal, has an ending, and ideally some artistic consistency. Game companies aren't looking for someone just to make demos, but to actually get finished products released, which I find requires a very different approach and mindset than what it takes just to make a demo.
I get it your four older siblings Were the demos And you were the final release lolol :)
It would be cool to see some of the press that came out in anticipation of Fallout --previews, etc. and what people thought the game would be before it came out. Do you have any of that? Might make a good video.
Even though I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this question, I think it's still valuable to ask all the devs in these comments this question on behalf of narrative design people who're a few years younger than me: How well do interactive fiction projects "count" (for those of us in narrative design)?
"I'm the last of five kids" made it sound like the last one remaining lmao
Survival of the fittest.
Hi Tim, it's me, Aegon. I recently saw your video on managing player's expectations. But what about your bosses' expectations?
Can you please make a video about time estimations and planning?
I'm a SW dev who consistently shoots himself in the foot by being too optimistic in estimates. This makes it seem I suck at my job. But from what I could compare in know-how and hackatons in regards to peers I'm about an 8/10. How to fix this? Thanks
i have a question about demos but that falls into IP stuff, that might have been covered in other videos you made
where do fan games fall? i have a specific example in mind of where i saw someone made a 3d version of Pizza Tower and posted the demo on social medias, seemingly without the original developer's permission. could they show it to recruiters if they're trying to get a job in the game industry? or would that get them blacklisted for not caring about IP enough for the industry?
making my day, thank youu
People who cannot be bothered to spend one minute to put their question in a search bar and hit enter do not deserve to get a personal answer.
Honestly, make a demo. What's nice about a demo is that you can show the concept for your big idea. You can't make GTA on your own, but you can certainly build a tiny sandbox to show off your cool idea.
Yes you can make GTA by yourself.
There are tutorials on TH-cam on how too.
You are not looking hard enough
@@wesss9353 I think you missed the point of my statement 😅
@@jeremyjohnson9609 GTA is top down.
You would be able to make it within a month if you are motivated.
GTA 3 to current is 3rd person.
It's been a year already 😅. That went quick.
I'm so glad my older siblings weren't at witty. I'm the youngest and that other side of the mountain comment would've been devastating 😂
Where the snoring doggo
Hahahah, in conclusion "my siblings are demos". 😂😂😂
Hey Tim, hope you're well.
I was wondering if there was a resource that could give advice on getting into the game industry as a writer much like you do for the tech side of things. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you might not be able to tackle that question? I'm assuming make a portoflio would be step one, but what if you're unpublished and untrained?
All the best, and no worries if you can't address this.
I wish I had known this when I was a lot younger. I always thought "oh a degree will be enough to show I know what I'm doing."
Nope, even now as an adult I think to myself I'd rather see physical work people have done. If you can show me what you've done and walk me through how you did it good and bad. I'm more interested.
Just got a new demo out and pushing it on Twitter. Hoping it drives more traffic than the last time.
If it helps people reading this, school taught me to be a better programmer, and how to critique my own and others writing.
Fallout 5 -> isometric, turn-based, by Obsidian, Timothy as lead. That would be a demo I would love to play 😋. Life could be a dream 😌
everybody wants the shortcut that isn't actually doing the work. it's true for non game dev programming too
The Oregon trail presented by Tim Cain.
You have died from radiation
Hey Tim community! I’m making a new multiplayer game that has game modes such as 5v5 and a PvPvE extraction. My question is, do you think people get tired of such games modes? Should I change them? Recently a new game that is similar to Tarkov came out and people in the comment section were like “Tarkov clone”. Makes me feel as if I took too long to make my game. But then again, Bungie’s reviving Marathon, I believe that it’s an extraction based game as well. Am I late?
The tarkov went $250 dlc.
It's the perfect time to get the upset gamers.
Just don't put in zombie and battle Royale it's been over done.
5v5 is good.
Hi Tim, so what makes for a good demo?
In particular, what's your bar for a demo that's good enough for a junior developer to show to a prospective employer?
When are you making an Arcanum sequel?
I have to ask. I see the fallout board game. Did you like it? Has any modern board games surprised you ?
Hey Tim, "making a demo" also applies to marketing a game, right? How to make a good demo for a game? Imho, demos are the best form of advertisement since they allow you to get a feel of how a game plays before committing to buying it.
It's marketing in the sense that it helps sell copies of a game (if the game is good, that is - it's a "try before you buy" system), but doesn't necessarily advertise the game.
@@---nu4ed AAA studios aren't hallmarks of competence or optimisation. They solve problems by throwing colossal amounts of money at it.
If they want a game made? They hire hundreds of people and have them work on it for several years. They want to advertise a game? They spend a colossal amount of money on getting as many advertising spots as possible.
Even if their advertising has a low success rate, that's still acceptable if it reaches enough people, you see.
@---nu4ed well, I will put it differently: a game with a demo has higher chances of winning me over. It signals that the devs stick to the quality of their product. In fact, I've picked up two different franchises that were unknown to me after getting my hands on the demos and loving it. Also, a demo can greatly mitigate the issue of wrong expectations if done right (this is a big issue nowadays that can tank your reviews and future revenue if not addressed).
@@---nu4ed You're forgetting that bigger studios don't release quality products anymore - if people could actually play their games before choosing to buy them, their sales would tank instantly - there'd be no sunk cost fallacy to pressure them into thinking the game has redeemable aspects either. There's a reason I specified "if the game is good" - it helped inscryption boom, for example.
@---nu4ed long-term, what is good for customers tend to be the winning strategy for corporations. At least, this is how big players in other industries operate.
LETS SEE THE DOG.
I also did listen to the video, but the collar noises distracted me towards the end thinking of all the possibilities.
When youre saying make a demo, do you mean a prototype? Or a vertical slice?
Thank you, Quick Question, How to make a demo? (Just Kidding ... or am i?)
How many of you actually check to see if Tim links the videos that he says are linked below or are we all just blindly trusting him at this point?
What is your opinion on fan games?
What funny things have you written? Examples would be appreciated.
Should your demo be a playable demo, or is video of you playing sufficient? Because I would assume a game company is not going to want to load up an unverified exe from a stranger on their systems.
Yes, a video works. Some people prefer that too. I’ve also seen people have browser based games and put the link in their resume.
Is doing a game jam pretty comparable? And is showing off a game jam project a bad idea if it's not polished for your ability to rapid prototype? Is rapid prototyping a valuable skill in the triple a world?
If it's your most recent work, I'd say it's worth it compared to nothing - but if it's like 6 months old, they'll be wondering why you're showing something you left unfinished. At the slow rate of triple A, I'd imagine rapid prototyping might be a useful side skill to have but not one hiring team would care about - the use of the game jam in a job application would be you demonstrating what you can make and the thought process behind making it.
I think he talks about game jams a bit in the R&D video th-cam.com/video/qsqCDLgBBSo/w-d-xo.html
So just to be clear, we should make a demo but only talk about your experiences with it in the interview but not show it? In a previous video you mention you shouldn’t expect to show anything you’ve worked on in an interview because the company doesn’t want expose themselves to claims of stealing ideas if they make a similar product/something with similar mechanics
As a middle child of 5, yeah
yeah
As the middle child I was able to push blame on the other two.
Do you think it's important to make the demos on your own, or will you get the same thing out of working with others?
I think it's OK to make a demo with others, as long as you can clearly indicate what features you did yourself and be able to discuss those features in an interview.
Does anyone want to play my demo for a narrative adventure game? The game is much further along and the demo is a few months old but any input is appreciated
does it have catgirls?
Sure
@@arcan762 No catgirls it is set in a circus so there are some tigers and lions
@@wesss9353 What would be the best way to get in touch with you? So far I email people the game design document it has all the background info and the demo is downloadable in zip folders
@@wesss9353 What would be a good way to get in touch with you? So far I've got a game doc with all the background information and zipped demos for mac and windows
So, should I make a demo or nah?
Don't get a job in the industry!! You'll be unemployed for most of your career.
Pour your heart, knowledge, wisdom, intelligence, and talent into a game... Corporate direction will kill your story, management's micromanaging will destroy your passion, deadlines move... And hours invested in pushing your skill, will not reflect pay.
Even if you make the best game in decades... You'll be laid off as soon as it releases, or shortly thereafter.
Oooo I get to be the person to say 'first' 😊 thanks for the daily uploads Tim!
Rpg maker makes everything easy to do.
Demo?
Demo? More like el problemo
Kids are demos.... They should come with pc gamer mags.
Kid 1 out of 5 here
I'm the demo
The prototype
Hi Tim
make a demo
@@vast634 on it 🫡
@@vast634 will do!
I miss Demos, I am convinced we need them more now than ever before.
But the context is different.