It is really difficult for the lower ranking employee when they are in a situation like this, because they technically have to listen to both of you and the only way I could have done it was tell you "well, our boss told me I had to do this, could you take it up with him how we do it going forward?" and I've had to do that multiple times in my career as a tester. I just established that I need a clear signal on who I follow the word on and usually it is actually the lower ranking boss, because they work more in the field whole the higher rank boss only has an overview and lacks the understanding on what goes on in the trenches. After a meeting where we explain what things do, we often decided on some sort of compromise and went on to implement things down the line. But this could also cause massive delays because one boss couldn't see eye to eye with the other.
@@CainOnGames Definitely tough on the lower ranked employee. I've been in your situation before and what helped me was in setting expectations, also explicitly set my own responsibilities. That is, tell my team that when it happens instead of implementing my boss' request, at minimum come and raise the situation with me so I can then discuss it with my boss and resolve it and give them further direction, being clear the issue should be between me and my boss and if they don't bring me in they'll be leaving themselves in the middle of it. Only other thing I'd add on the video is that while "don't take it personally" can be good advice, it is often over used and can minimise situations where something has become less professional and it is hard to consider it as anything other than personal.
If my bosses boss made me do something and my boss got mad at me about it (or took me to HR or whatever) I would absolutely take that personally. It's my bosses job to deal with his boss not my job to mediate between the two of them. In a conflict between the two I have to follow my bosses boss overall. Trying to overrule your boss by taking it out on your employee is just bad management.
I like Adam's advice for always punching up not down when he's in a supervisor role. I think the first example of punching up should have been used in the first example.
I think your stories are a good example for why emotional detachment is so important in the workplace. It's hard to take things personally if you're just there to get the job done.
This too can have problems. Abuse in workplaces can often be perpetrated by just a handful of individuals, but it's the apathy of the majority that tends to allow it to take root. A more emotionally invested, open company is more likely to nip it in the bud. And that's critical because once something becomes the norm of the "workplace culture" it can take years or decades to make change. Especially now that HR departments exist far more to protect the company than the employees (at least in countries like America where regulations on companies and how HR operates are quite minimal). That said the openness tends to be a luxury of much smaller companies and co-ops.
I think it's fair to both acknowledge that it's not a personal attack but it does effect you personally. You're responsible for helping to manage the workload and processes of the people that work for you. It reduces how effective you can be and it's okay say that.
Yep, I like Tim, but this method is a horrible method that is passing off the middle bosses' responsibility to the lower employee. That lower employee is stuck between his highest rank boss telling him to do one thing, then being punished by a lower ranked boss for doing what the higher boss said. Literally the movie Office Space. Instead Tim should have gone up the chain of command, or HR if needed. His issue is that as game director, he is the one responsible, and thats why he is counteracting his boss. There is truth in that, however Tim should have renogotiated his responbilities and authority so they align properly, not just pass the turd down hill. I understand that may not feasibile, and in that case, you need to just suck it up. Let the boss make the decisions, and take responsibility if you have to. Do the right thing, its the cost of leadership.
Exactly. The best managers are those who are willing to protect their subordinates. Tim mentioned in the week-long bug story where he refused to name the person responsible for the bug. That showed amazing leadership. It’s a shame that he doesn’t see the irony when he is deciding to punish his subordinate in a separate but similar situation.
maybe your situation is different, but at my job if the higher up boss tells my direct reports to do something then it outranks my opinion. It definitely sucks when this happens but "qtip" works both ways... I think the solution is having a conversation with your boss about transparency and explain that you cant properly do your own job if they are going around you. I wouldnt hold it against the employee for doing what the higher boss told him to do as it seems like a chain of command issue.
It's a simple problem: "I am told that this is supposed to be done this way, and I know you say it's bad, but we have to do it this way even if it's worse." I had this situation, and I did it. It took me 1 month of code rework to create a solution to easily change the behavior of the library between "bad", "good" and "best." I told the boss that his idea was "bad" of all options, and he insisted I do it. He was angry even, showing my e-mail to others in his meeting. My e-mail was very objective and diplomatic, so he really took issue with the fact that I knew better than him (I was paid be btw). 2 weeks later he changed his mind to do the "good" option. When I was done, they could switch it freely to whatever they wanted, and eventually decide to switch to the "best" option. The project got abandoned when we went apart over some bureaucratic nonsense. Unsurprisingly it was some stupid nonsense they insisted I do, which even cost them +15% of my wage which was burnt in taxes and some LA company, and was needlessly painful to work with, and I finally told them no - give me a contract again and let's do it normally as before. The project was done btw.
Ironically, I took your story personally *on first blush.* I’ve been the employee in the bad situation, and it kinda came down to “well I either do this thing I feel bad about or I get disappeared from this job.” But I’ve also been that middle manager, and the difference in my situation was that my direct reports always came to me anytime they got some conflicting direction (and rarely were ordered NOT to tell me, woof) - which meant I had the information I needed to manage their efforts as well as manage upward to *try* and prevent that kind of thing from happening again. Thinking on how different the situation would be if my people DIDN’T come to me while implementing all these tasks secretly, yeah, I’d need to take agency wherever I can actually affect change. I’d frame my interaction with the employee as “I need you to communicate with me so I can weigh the facts and advocate for you/your labor, otherwise this will only be a you problem.” That kind of directness is something I should definitely get more comfortable with.
I think many new designers completely miss fallbacks and feel like they failed instead, and I think instead learning to have fallbacks is a phenomenally useful lesson. Also if you invest a ton of ego in any design decision you probably don't actually wanna be a designer, I think taking joy in seriously approaching the different perspectives of how your work is received is a central part of design work.
While I agree that the boss in the first story was putting you in a bad position by going around you, the employee was in a rough spot too. Did the boss in question have the power to fire, punish or otherwise make that employee's life hell for disobeying him? Or could you have protected him from that boss for not doing what he told him to do? If you didn't have the power to shield him, he was basically in a lose lose situation, where anything he did would screw him. At the most, you should have simply told him that you understood the position he was in, and next time at least come to you and give you a heads up.
This. I very much agree with Tim on everything, but not this. The employee very much could not "do what he wanted", he was implicitly being coerced into it by a superior (who did it precisely because he knew he could use Tim's subordinate as a wavebreaker). What he should have done is confronted his own boss -- professionally.
@@newgroundswasbetter777 I would disagree. The employee was working under Tim, and a higher up was coming in and disrupting his work. That makes it a problem between Tim and the boss. As to telling Tim about it, the employee was ordered not to tell Tim. Ordered by someone not only with more power than him, but with more power than his direct boss, Tim. Through no fault of his own, the employee was put between a rock and hard place. This falls squarely on the boss. And I understand that Tim was probably powerless to stop the boss from behaving like this, but so was the employee. The employee who now had to worry about angering not just one, but now two higher ups.
It's a lose - lose situation for everyone, that's why everything should be transparent and discussed before acted upon. This is not the kindergarden but a company where hundreds of thousands, even millions of dollars are at stake.
@@newgroundswasbetter777 Not at all, the chain of command goes two ways. An employee is not responsible for the actions of a superior that twice outranks him/her.
Been watching Tested since before Adam's name was in the title, they've always done solid tech stuff but now that he's taken over it is chock full of great advice and really cool builds.
When your boss gives a direct order to your reports, your boss screwed up, not the report. Otherwise, the report will get fired. At best, the report could have said to the big boss "please run this by Tim" or "I will check in with Tim before doing this." No one likes to get sandbagged. Sorry this happened and that bosses are lame.
Hi Tim, I want to start off by saying I watch your videos every morning (thanks for doing them, btw), so please know I’m not just some random hater. But… I feel if you were going to involve HR, it should have been you going about your boss constantly undermining you, AND telling your subordinates to LIE TO YOU about it. It is unfair of you to expect your subordinates to put their livelihoods at stake out of personal loyalty to you. Doesn’t mean your boss wasn’t shitty, or that your position in the middle wasn’t difficult. But you should have your people’s backs. If you don’t want them to lie to you, stand up to your supervisor yourself, in front of them. Put your own position at risk, because that’s what you’re asking them to do for you. No matter how many times you retell the story, it doesn’t make you look any better.
Tim's advice both in the corporate and game design side is generally fantastic. But I 100% agree with you here. Issues like this should be pushed back up the chain not down. Absolutely discuss expectations with your employee's but the wrong doing here was by Tim's boss. Tim says he can't control what his boss does, he's above him, but the same can be said for the employee and his boss' boss. The boss has a pattern of this behaviour and it should be raised with him, and with HR if necessary.
@@PetrifiedPenguinIt undermines trust at every level in the organization when people work like that. I get why Tim would say he can’t trust his subordinate anymore - he can’t if his own boss is going around him and telling them to lie! But making it an accountability issue for the subordinate is the wrong direction to go.
At this point in my age and experience (mid 50s will NEVER be able to retire, canada here) It's about knowing what to take personally and what not. There's going to be times at work where it's tested and it's fairly easy to sus out if someone is just that way with everyone, or if someone is just that way with you. For work that's usually someone not aware they can't be like that. Show them they can't be like that.
Hard dissagree on taking employees to HR for doing what your boss said, thats putting your employees in a lose lose situation they should never be put in, what you should be doing is going to your boss and telling them to stop bypassing you as a manager
Hello Tim! Long time listener, first-time commenter. I thoroughly enjoy your content, and consider it amazingly useful for those who choose to listen and apply the lessons they find valuable, into their own endeavors. I have not gotten through all of your videos and existing comments yet, and as such I haven't posted any of my eager questions yet (since you have mentioned asking us to look through existing content first). So I do apologize that the very first thing I ever post is a disagreement when I agree with most of your content; however I felt very strongly about it and have personal experience. I do disagree with your conclusions from your lens of the situation, with the employee who disobeyed your orders about a game feature and keeping you informed, based on superior orders from a superior of yours. A number of other commentators also disagree. The story as you have presented in your videos, seems to suggest the following: ->The Game Director (a critical role that is not easily fired for minor conflicts, such as the conflicts you seemed to have at least indirectly with this superior) has their orders disobeyed by a subordinate, and believes they have been lied to (it is arguable if is lying, if you ask to be informed about any changes, and were not informed based on upper management decisions; even if you are responsible for final product as the Game Director, that is a YOU problem that comes with the territory of working for superiors) ->The high-up superior going around you to have their way, who seems to impress the idea upon you that they also have sway in HR ->the subordinate employee being ordered by your superior, to countermand your orders You suggest that you are powerless to inflict change on the superior, you have no say. Yet you seem to state that you had expected the subordinate to inflict change on your superior, to stand up to them in the way that you couldn't. Shouldn't this be an issue that you confront the superior on, to avoid creating a toxic work environment for all your subordinates? Either this behavior is part of this corporation's culture and you are the one who needs to decide if you should work there, or it is not and could have some possible change. This is not a QTIP; a lower-level subordinate does not have the luxury of disobeying a lawful direct order from a superior, and risks being fired for doing do (the threat of poverty is about as personal as it gets). I must ask: if that employee got fired for disobeying that order, would you risk your career or position in that company to save that low-ranker? You talk about perhaps if HR got involved, they may end up disciplining that employee. That is assuming that that employee did something against corporate policy; something "wrong". Is there further details that we are not privy to, that reflect a wrong behavior by that employee? Because the story you described... happens all the time in companies. All the time a level of management is specifically routed by upper-management to 1 level further down, with orders to not mentioned to that routed level (the idea that by the time they do find out, the concrete has dried so to speak, on that change). It is not lying to withhold information, even if a level of management commands to know everything. The business can decide to withhold information and does it all the time, regardless of the opinions of any subordinate in the chain. If the Game Director feels that it is wrong to have game changes without the Game Director knowing, then get that clear with your superiors; otherwise, standing orders say otherwise and the Game Director is presuming a level of control, that they really dont have/can expect. If what you really mean is that you expected the employee to kind of let you know somehow that this change happened even if they were ordered not do, BECAUSE you were gonna find out anyway, then I understand; but to be clear, you are asking/expecting that employee, to counteract that other superior's orders, on the down-low so they dont get in trouble ("just pretend you found out by playing it, you didnt hear it from me"; this is assuming you dont consider that lying to that superior). That is about a level of intimacy and trust that you would have to earn from that employee, which is distinct from that employee doing something wrong in corporate's eyes. I understand that you may not ever read this, and if you do you may not change your mind on your conclusions; just know that every time that story is mentioned, there will be loads of comments saying this response to that story. And part of that is because we experience this all the time (I've had this happen in my work like 4+ times in 12 years, some places may have it a lot more if there is a difficult-to-handle supervisor that people route around all the time). Anyways, I enjoy 99% of what you post, and hope you continue to do so. Your content is surprisingly motivating and out of an act of pure altruism, and we really all do appreciate the advice and perspective you bring. Thank you!
As I’ve said elsewhere, I did talk to my boss, which resulted in no change. He’s done this before, and he did it later, on my project and other ones. So I told the employee to come to me next time...and if he did not, we'd go to HR. I wanted it to be 100% clear what my expectations were if this happened again. My employee was placed in a terrible situation...BY MY BOSS. As I explained in other comments, his co-workers found out about this situation (since the new feature caused a crash and one of them had to fix it), and I wanted this employee to be trusted by them as well as by me. So I made it clear how I wanted this situation to resolved the next time. And there was a next time. If coming to me led to my employee being taken to HR by my boss, I would have intervened. I have screened employees from bad bosses before. See my video on Fallout’s delay by a crash bug. As for my boss, I cannot tell you why he does the things he does. He does it on other projects too, so I don't take it personally. Adam Savage gives good advice.
I have to disagree with your first point about not taking it personally when your boss asks your subordinate to do something against you. This is assuming that neither your boss nor you have your subordinate’s back. I believe that you should have been the one to confront your boss about this. Your subordinate has no power. You do. And you should be there for him. Otherwise he will learn that he cannot ever trust you to have his back in the future. If I were the subordinate in this situation, I would first get some assurance from the boss’ boss that I will be protected in case my boss doesn’t agree. I would get this in written form - IM or email would be enough. Then after the event, if my own boss won’t support me, I would have no choice but to leave. Who knows… maybe that was the plan: the boss and boss’ boss were trying to get me pissed off enough to quit so that they won’t need to give me unemployment.
I've got to disagree on the first one. You're boss didn't put him in an unfair situation, you did by telling them they did something wrong. Your boss has the right to add whatever they want without your permission (although he should respect you enough not to), that's between you guys. You made it the employee's problem when you pursued him for doing exactly what he should and had to do. That's the kind of thing that makes good employees walk away from poorly managed companies. That should have been handled between you and your boss.
I once worked in a mildly toxic workplace. Learned saying "My lord's lord, but not my lord" very quickly. Only deal with my direct superiors since then and this approach haven't failed me so far.
It's been my experience that the hardest thing to do is to not take criticism of your work as a criticism of you as a person. That's probably true for a lot of people. I think that's a skill you have to work on. The sooner we recognize it's a necessary skill, the sooner we can start working on it. I'll admit I'm not the best at it but at least I'm aware, and that's a start.
I watch both your and Adam's video constantly! It's been very nice to hear all the advice. You've changed the way I perceive businesses and how nuanced situations can be. I mainly write narrative scripts so a lot of the programming doesn't really click but I can see the bigger point you mean through your stories. All that just to say thank you and can't wait to see more!
Hey Tim, your channel is amazing. I discovered it over the weekend after finish watching the show and watched a few videos other than the show review. It's insightful and very helpful. Thank you!
I love when my favorite channels talk about how they love some of the same creators! Between your games & adam savage when he was on the Mythbusters you two have really helped me maintain my sense of curiosity well into adulthood, it's very appreciated!
He should have told me about the new feature. I was going to find out anyway. If that caused a problem with my boss, I’d have stepped in and taken the heat. I’ve done that on past projects, even if it cost me. Ultimately, it’s a bad situation caused by my boss.
"I see people making lots of mistakes, like demanding to have a lead role or be a director or whatever and they've been in the industry like two, three, five years" Curious -- other devs in these comments, what would you each say is the "average" number of years being in the industry before it's appropriate to start bringing up the idea of taking on a director role?
Hi Tim, thank you for sharing your game dev life with us. Not many industry leaders share their experiences, but it is very useful for us young developers to be inspired by your life and work.
I've been looking for channels to replace all the drama-stirring chaff with, and I feel foolish for not even considering Adam Savage's channel! Cheers for the recommend, and congrats on 100k!
Thank you for sharing these stories, im fairly early in my career but recently got promoted to a lead and these videos give a lot of good advice and things for me to think about. It has been very helpful for me
Can you make more Outer Worlds videos? Ever since I played the game I haven't been able to get enough of the behind the scenes. And also speaking of Mythbusters it would be amazing if they were still around and had done a Fallout episode testing some of the ideas from Fallout.
I think Tim has said before he can't really cover too much of The Outer Worlds development, mostly because there is still a sequel in development and one of his semi-retirement gigs is consulting for Obsidian on the sequel. Talking about development of the first game my overlap with some the work he's doing for the second, which could risk triggering any NDA clauses he is still under. Plus, there was a fair amount cut from the first game that I'm sure were kept around as ideas for the sequel, so he may also be trying to avoid giving anything away. It's a shame, I too would love to hear more about TOW (I really love the Noclip documentary series on it, I rewatch it regularly!) but I guess we'll get more from Tim about once TOW2 has dropped and been out for a little bit.
Yes, my boss can order me to put things in the game, and he has in the past. And I’ve done it. But telling someone on my team to do it and not tell me, well that puts everyone in a bad situation. I’ve lost trust in both of them, and the employee is caught in the middle. My expectation is that my boss would come to me, and when that doesn’t happen, that my employee would tell me what he’s been asked to do. When those things don’t happen, then I’m caught in the middle.
I think the forgive but never forget is such an important thing to takeaway as a programmer. I'm just a junior programmer near the end of my days in university, but in my early days I was so paranoid of my programs for lower CS classes to be flagged for plagiarism. Since our assignments would be very simple, and the class size was over 30, assuming the code was only compared to within my section and not all sections of that semester, it would not be unlikely for two students who don't know each other to turn in identical programs, so to counter this I developed a really, really bad habit of naming variables things I know other people would not. This started with funny names like "hardlyworkingarray" but when I started using loops I made a habit of not using x,y,z or i,j,k but instead something like a,aa,aaa, or e,ee,eee. By the time I took my second programming course this habit was made pretty much unnecessary, and it's fun to have funny variable names if they still make sense or if its for a one time assignment you won't have to look over again, but I unfortunately had the habit of those horrible increment counter variable names within loops. Well when I started my Data Structures class my sophomore year, I eventually had some assignment where I made the horrible decision of implementing some sort of system I barely understood as a 3D array. I procrastinated really bad that whole semester, so I probably gave myself around 6 hours or less to do the whole thing, and of course I didn't get it done. But the big thing that stopped me from being able to finish or fix my broken code was that for 2 hours I was stuck with some bug I for the life of me could not understand. The due date went by and I couldn't fix the code, but what matters is that my best friend who was also taking the class came to my dorm room and for an hour and a half we debugged my code, and I'll never forget at 1am we saw that I had accidently written a '0' (number zero) instead of an 'o' (letter o) somewhere in the triple nested for loop. I must have used the letter 'o' as an incrementing integer which is just one of the worst decisions I could of made. So now I not only know never to use such a misreadable variable name, but I constantly notice the font of the IDE and the difference between a '0' and an 'o' and an 'O', and also a lowercase 'l' (L) versus an uppercase 'I" (i). This actually helped train me catch type errors like that and is great when I'm in a group project and reviewing a partners code when debugging and I'm able to catch a mistake like that which could possibly save an hour or more. I feel like it's almost good to be embarrassed by mistakes like that and something like a >= instead of > when doing logical comparisons. The fact that I know I've made basic mistakes makes me extra cautious to not do them, or at least be aware that if I have an error or some bug this could be the reason.
For the first example, the issue isn't about taking it personally, it's about management BS putting an employee in a lose-lose situation. If a middle manager doesn't like that an employee obeyed an upper manager against their wishes, they should take it up with the upper manager. Never take it out on the employee who's just trying to do their job.
@@CainOnGames At that point, I'd continue to call him out when he did it or at least ask him to keep you in the loop, but ultimately if he's your boss then his decision is the one that's going to win, so I wouldn't reprimand my employees for obeying him. Doesn't change the fact that he's a terrible boss, but neither does blaming the employee, and if I was the employee I'd be much more willing to go the extra mile for an understanding manager who had my corner.
@@CainOnGames Coming from another angle, as an employee I've been in that situation and I refused to lie to my immediate manager, so I emailed them both together and asked them to decide together what I should do. They hashed it out and I got a clear answer, which to me is the best outcome, so from that perspective I get what you're saying. It's the not telling the manager that's the problem, and I understand why the manager would be professionally annoyed at that.
Exactly. That’s what I wished had happened the first time. That he had just come to me. I did continue to call out my boss. I had told the employee to come to me if it happened again, and he did when it happened the second time, so he didn’t get into any trouble. Meanwhile, I had to handle the problems these new features added. The first one caused a crash to occur.
I've actually been on a somewhat similar situation to your story and in mine, I was the employee in question and I handled it differently. As soon as I realized that I was asked to do something behind the back of one of my bosses, I stood up mid conversation and basically dragged boss A to boss's B office, told them what was going on and that I am not doing anything until they figure it out. And I left. I don't know what they talked about in there but I was never bothered about it again from either boss nor did I feel affected by it in any way for the two years I stayed with that company.
One thing about bugs is you should always be aware of changes you make and also test important parts that can cause a serious crash carefully. I can't think of a big bug I made where I was totally mystified except where I had some debug stuff enabled accidentally that caused a slowdown. Like with the memory manager library you used, it is hard to believe they had a bug in such a critical area that was obviously simply never tested. That's pretty neglicgent in such critical code, That is what I would be most disturbed by if someone made a lock bug like that which took so long to figure out. And while sourcesafe is garbage I am pretty sure it is easy to check on what was checked in and when and go through versions to find where someone introduced a bug they can't find. I have done that many times.
Tim, do you have any thoughts or stories behind Fallout Tactics? I know you've been long gone from Interplay by this point, however F:T does things that you mentioned marketing wanted you to put into Fallout 1 - multiplayer, realtime combat. It would be interesting to hear your take on F:T, cheers!
Implementing unique AI systems for individual characters would take the concept of replayability to entirely new heights. Here's how: Infinitely Unfolding Journeys: No Two Playthroughs the Same: Every encounter with a character would be different, based not only on your choices but on how that specific character's AI evolves over time. Emergent Narratives: Relationships, rivalries, or even betrayals could organically develop within the game world based on choices you made early on having ripple effects later.
Qtip is SO important in so many jobs. I don't know how many coworkers I've seen over the years lose their jobs willingly or otherwise because they couldn't separate personal feelings from the stresses of the job. I think it also goes hand in hand with the last point as well, that you should prioritize dealing with the immediate problem in the moment, and everything else later. I have to do it almost every day at my current job. Between asshole customers, an overly aggressive manager, and general problems. My direct manager is absolutely miserable because she's really bad at it. She yells at people, harasses us about what we're doing, and even came in while on medical leave for a broken leg to walk the back room. She's fought me many times over things her own bosses told us both to do. Honestly, I don't know how long she can keep going like that, it will cost her her job and her health.
My buddy Pearry Teo gave some less than great advice as I was getting into my first role as a vfx producer, "it's not about whether you're willing to get fucked or not. It's how hard and how long." Which is a variation on, "don't take it personally," going into it with the full knowledge you're jumping into a shark tank with the sharks, who are going to run your body and mind for all it is worth and put it away wet & dirty, then try to under pay you on the contract you both agreed to, signed by all the lawyers. They WILL try to underpay you, or if they can get away with it, not pay you at all. You have fight for yourself, and your crew, tooth and nail, getting up in the business of an executive whose desk costs more than your annual income. You can do as good of a job as humanly possible, get lucky and pull off a win that borders on miraculous under extreme pressure... and they still try to fuck you. I don't know how you don't take *that* personally. I don't know if I ever will.
Hey Tim!! I don't know if you'll read my comment nor respond to it but I wonder if you'll ever consider working on a Fallout project again? Like maybe one day Todd will hire you as an adviser or some sort for the Fallout franchise, something like that.
Im passing though something like that. im 25, game programmer. I am the only programmer in the project and it pays soo bad but im more interested in failing and leaning from it but sometimes is hard, mainly cause i got bills to pay xd
Tim, hi. Tell me, are you still involved in game development, or are you just consulting developers? I just have a great idea for the game universe. It is a kind of combination of elements of TES and Fallout. If you are interested in this, or you think that the original game universe might be of interest to Obsidian, I can describe my idea to you.
Huh? Is Tim supposed to read the mind of a boss that doesn't communicate with him? Tim even said the boss was known for going around his under-bosses. Was Tim just supposed to guess when he would do this to him?
Exactly. Seems a lack of rapport/trust if an employee doesn't even inform you. Sounds like the employee is at a lose-lose if Tim takes them to HR or if Tim's boss blacklists/disciplines them for not listening. Everyone purpetuates the system because of their own stake.
You got fired because you boss's boss had you do something? If so that sucks, but please understand Tim was wrong on this. He acted poorly. Don't apply anything he said here to yourself or your future.
Stuff like the first situation is why antiwork is so huge. People just arent willing now to spend 30+ years of abuse to finally be able to walk away. Can you blame them?
If your boss wants something done and you don't, I think the problem is you, not the boss, not the employee that did the thing. Now, if the thing is good, bad or anything in between, is another matter of discussion, but given you're taking so long with the issue, seems like you actually did take it personally.
I think you need to take your own advice. YOUR boss put your employee in a bad position with a directive you disagree with and rather than addressing the concern with the individual in question, you instead have put the onus for resolution of an issue onto your subordinate. You seem to have unrealistic expectations in this particular instance. How could they not take it personally when you seemingly take out your boss's decisions on them? You've been a part of some great games, but this is some of the worst management advice I've ever heard. You're the manager. You should be the one to resolve this conflict rather than allow the burden of it be handled by someone under you. And then you have the nerve to say something like "don't take it personally. It's just business." Dude, part of your job is resolving these sorts of issues. What an obscenely terrible take.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I did talk to my boss, which resulted in no change. He’s done this before, and he did it later. So I told the employee to come to me next time...and if he did not, we'd go to HR. I wanted it to be 100% clear what my expectations were if this happened again. My employee was placed in a terrible situation...BY MY BOSS. As I explained in other comments, his co-workers found out about this situation (since the new feature caused a crash and one of them had to fix it), and I wanted this employee to be trusted by them as well as by me. So I made it clear how I wanted this situation to resolved the next time. And there was a next time. As for my boss, I cannot tell you why he does the things he does. He does it on other projects too, so I don't take it personally. Adam Savage gives good advice.
The first situation about conflict with hierarchy was not explained very well by you. If that situation is not well explain in same work regulations, you basically behave as bad as your boss. This is telling me that you are very bad with management of your subordinate. It IS not an employ job to decide who he has to listen to. The solution is to go to HR with your boss and an employee and decide what to do. You exhibited unprofessional and cowardly conduct due to your apprehension that the superior may disregard your decisions or utilize them against you.The only mistake an employee did was that he didn't inform you, but if that was giving as an order from the boss (to not tell you) is still not his fault. So you can't blame him...but you kind of did. I don't see anything professional about it, it was exclusively personal (power play).
I am sorry. But in my eyes, the story about your higher up telling something to do to your subordinate programmer. Is a huge failure on your part. You should clerify this with your superior it’s either: a) you bend to his idea b) he is to not interfere and you told officially that nobody is to take any requests from you You basically dodged your responsibility as a director and outsourced it to a staff member who should finish tasks and not take your burden. I am sorry but this is kinda pathetic
Damn Tim. I've been around the block many times and managed people. I didn't take you as a shitty boss, but seems I was wrong. Hearing this I would never work for you. If you can't control your boss your employee certainly can't. Your boss is going to have more power over your direct than you. They can't say no to him. They can inform you. They should have come to you immediately. THAT is what you should have told your employee, if this happens again come tell me immediately. You should not have threatened them with HR. Had I been that person I would have immediately gone to HR to report you then your boss to inform him and request a transfer. You threatened them for doing their job. That is ultra shitty.
This story he's trying to use as an example of "don't take it personally" is, transparently, an example of when he took something extremely personally. And, honestly, I don't exactly blame him for it. I think in his shoes I would struggle a great deal not to take that situation personally. I also think that the take-away of "don't take it personally" is a good thing to strive for in that situation (edit: however difficult that might be). It's just, the actions he's describing are absolutely not him succeeding to not take it personally. His actions against his subordinate are petty and ugly. It comes across as extremely delusional.
@@AlligatorTower Agreed. Shit rolls down hill. A good manager tries to shield those under them from above. This issue really was with his boss. But his employee got caught up in it (do to no fault of theirs) and since Tim felt helpless to handle his boss he instead punched down. Ugly story. Sadly I didn't get the impression Tim learned not to punch down from the story, had that been his take away....
@@Me__Myself__and__I Truly. What's the subordinate supposed to do if Tim's boss asks him to add something else next week? "No Tim asked me not to do that" "Sure but I'm Tim's boss so it doesn't matter" "Oh ok cool guess I'll just quit then". As you say, it doesn't seem like he learned the right lesson. And the side eyes I've given to some of the other stories he's told (I've only watched a few videos) make me want to steer clear of this guy.
It is really difficult for the lower ranking employee when they are in a situation like this, because they technically have to listen to both of you and the only way I could have done it was tell you "well, our boss told me I had to do this, could you take it up with him how we do it going forward?" and I've had to do that multiple times in my career as a tester. I just established that I need a clear signal on who I follow the word on and usually it is actually the lower ranking boss, because they work more in the field whole the higher rank boss only has an overview and lacks the understanding on what goes on in the trenches. After a meeting where we explain what things do, we often decided on some sort of compromise and went on to implement things down the line. But this could also cause massive delays because one boss couldn't see eye to eye with the other.
Agreed. It’s always tough on the lower ranking employee. It was a bad situation.
@@CainOnGames Evidently your office didn't read the Chain That Binds. ;) High ranking should never be skipping ranks and giving orders to the grunts.
@@cycleboy8028 k
@@CainOnGames Definitely tough on the lower ranked employee. I've been in your situation before and what helped me was in setting expectations, also explicitly set my own responsibilities. That is, tell my team that when it happens instead of implementing my boss' request, at minimum come and raise the situation with me so I can then discuss it with my boss and resolve it and give them further direction, being clear the issue should be between me and my boss and if they don't bring me in they'll be leaving themselves in the middle of it.
Only other thing I'd add on the video is that while "don't take it personally" can be good advice, it is often over used and can minimise situations where something has become less professional and it is hard to consider it as anything other than personal.
I love Adam Savage's defcon talk on failure. I watch it every time I feel like I ruined my life, which is about annually.
Will check it out, thanks.
What matters is what you feel is meaningful work. Define what your success is, instead of what you think others consider or expect.
Congrats on 100K, Tim!
If my bosses boss made me do something and my boss got mad at me about it (or took me to HR or whatever) I would absolutely take that personally. It's my bosses job to deal with his boss not my job to mediate between the two of them. In a conflict between the two I have to follow my bosses boss overall. Trying to overrule your boss by taking it out on your employee is just bad management.
I like Adam's advice for always punching up not down when he's in a supervisor role. I think the first example of punching up should have been used in the first example.
I think your stories are a good example for why emotional detachment is so important in the workplace.
It's hard to take things personally if you're just there to get the job done.
You're not gonna work on something just as hard as if you were emotionally attached to it.
Which is hard to do when your job is based on creativity.
This too can have problems. Abuse in workplaces can often be perpetrated by just a handful of individuals, but it's the apathy of the majority that tends to allow it to take root. A more emotionally invested, open company is more likely to nip it in the bud. And that's critical because once something becomes the norm of the "workplace culture" it can take years or decades to make change. Especially now that HR departments exist far more to protect the company than the employees (at least in countries like America where regulations on companies and how HR operates are quite minimal).
That said the openness tends to be a luxury of much smaller companies and co-ops.
I think it's fair to both acknowledge that it's not a personal attack but it does effect you personally. You're responsible for helping to manage the workload and processes of the people that work for you. It reduces how effective you can be and it's okay say that.
It’s as personal as it gets whenever someone shield it by saying it’s not personal. If you scared to do the same to your boss it’s already personal.
Yep, I like Tim, but this method is a horrible method that is passing off the middle bosses' responsibility to the lower employee. That lower employee is stuck between his highest rank boss telling him to do one thing, then being punished by a lower ranked boss for doing what the higher boss said. Literally the movie Office Space. Instead Tim should have gone up the chain of command, or HR if needed. His issue is that as game director, he is the one responsible, and thats why he is counteracting his boss. There is truth in that, however Tim should have renogotiated his responbilities and authority so they align properly, not just pass the turd down hill. I understand that may not feasibile, and in that case, you need to just suck it up. Let the boss make the decisions, and take responsibility if you have to. Do the right thing, its the cost of leadership.
Exactly. The best managers are those who are willing to protect their subordinates. Tim mentioned in the week-long bug story where he refused to name the person responsible for the bug. That showed amazing leadership. It’s a shame that he doesn’t see the irony when he is deciding to punish his subordinate in a separate but similar situation.
maybe your situation is different, but at my job if the higher up boss tells my direct reports to do something then it outranks my opinion.
It definitely sucks when this happens but "qtip" works both ways...
I think the solution is having a conversation with your boss about transparency and explain that you cant properly do your own job if they are going around you. I wouldnt hold it against the employee for doing what the higher boss told him to do as it seems like a chain of command issue.
Conflicts within the management is not the employees concern. Thats some bullshit here. Making it the weakest links responsibility is pretty bad.
It's a simple problem: "I am told that this is supposed to be done this way, and I know you say it's bad, but we have to do it this way even if it's worse." I had this situation, and I did it. It took me 1 month of code rework to create a solution to easily change the behavior of the library between "bad", "good" and "best." I told the boss that his idea was "bad" of all options, and he insisted I do it. He was angry even, showing my e-mail to others in his meeting. My e-mail was very objective and diplomatic, so he really took issue with the fact that I knew better than him (I was paid be btw). 2 weeks later he changed his mind to do the "good" option. When I was done, they could switch it freely to whatever they wanted, and eventually decide to switch to the "best" option.
The project got abandoned when we went apart over some bureaucratic nonsense. Unsurprisingly it was some stupid nonsense they insisted I do, which even cost them +15% of my wage which was burnt in taxes and some LA company, and was needlessly painful to work with, and I finally told them no - give me a contract again and let's do it normally as before. The project was done btw.
Ironically, I took your story personally *on first blush.* I’ve been the employee in the bad situation, and it kinda came down to “well I either do this thing I feel bad about or I get disappeared from this job.”
But I’ve also been that middle manager, and the difference in my situation was that my direct reports always came to me anytime they got some conflicting direction (and rarely were ordered NOT to tell me, woof) - which meant I had the information I needed to manage their efforts as well as manage upward to *try* and prevent that kind of thing from happening again.
Thinking on how different the situation would be if my people DIDN’T come to me while implementing all these tasks secretly, yeah, I’d need to take agency wherever I can actually affect change. I’d frame my interaction with the employee as “I need you to communicate with me so I can weigh the facts and advocate for you/your labor, otherwise this will only be a you problem.”
That kind of directness is something I should definitely get more comfortable with.
I think many new designers completely miss fallbacks and feel like they failed instead, and I think instead learning to have fallbacks is a phenomenally useful lesson. Also if you invest a ton of ego in any design decision you probably don't actually wanna be a designer, I think taking joy in seriously approaching the different perspectives of how your work is received is a central part of design work.
These are also called Contingency Plans.
While I agree that the boss in the first story was putting you in a bad position by going around you, the employee was in a rough spot too. Did the boss in question have the power to fire, punish or otherwise make that employee's life hell for disobeying him? Or could you have protected him from that boss for not doing what he told him to do? If you didn't have the power to shield him, he was basically in a lose lose situation, where anything he did would screw him. At the most, you should have simply told him that you understood the position he was in, and next time at least come to you and give you a heads up.
This. I very much agree with Tim on everything, but not this. The employee very much could not "do what he wanted", he was implicitly being coerced into it by a superior (who did it precisely because he knew he could use Tim's subordinate as a wavebreaker). What he should have done is confronted his own boss -- professionally.
@@newgroundswasbetter777 I would disagree. The employee was working under Tim, and a higher up was coming in and disrupting his work. That makes it a problem between Tim and the boss. As to telling Tim about it, the employee was ordered not to tell Tim. Ordered by someone not only with more power than him, but with more power than his direct boss, Tim. Through no fault of his own, the employee was put between a rock and hard place. This falls squarely on the boss. And I understand that Tim was probably powerless to stop the boss from behaving like this, but so was the employee. The employee who now had to worry about angering not just one, but now two higher ups.
It's a lose - lose situation for everyone, that's why everything should be transparent and discussed before acted upon. This is not the kindergarden but a company where hundreds of thousands, even millions of dollars are at stake.
@@newgroundswasbetter777 Not at all, the chain of command goes two ways. An employee is not responsible for the actions of a superior that twice outranks him/her.
@@MrGatonegroish Maybe, but there's no military tribunal to protect them.
We're getting closer and closer to a reaction video, fellas.
Great talk, as always, Tim!
Been watching Tested since before Adam's name was in the title, they've always done solid tech stuff but now that he's taken over it is chock full of great advice and really cool builds.
ah yea will Smith I believe?
also I'm so old I was a active member in anime vice 😂😂😂
@@ianmoone1412 Yeah I remember Will mostly from their podcasts. It's a very different channel now but still good.
When your boss gives a direct order to your reports, your boss screwed up, not the report. Otherwise, the report will get fired. At best, the report could have said to the big boss "please run this by Tim" or "I will check in with Tim before doing this." No one likes to get sandbagged. Sorry this happened and that bosses are lame.
Hi Tim, I want to start off by saying I watch your videos every morning (thanks for doing them, btw), so please know I’m not just some random hater. But…
I feel if you were going to involve HR, it should have been you going about your boss constantly undermining you, AND telling your subordinates to LIE TO YOU about it. It is unfair of you to expect your subordinates to put their livelihoods at stake out of personal loyalty to you. Doesn’t mean your boss wasn’t shitty, or that your position in the middle wasn’t difficult. But you should have your people’s backs. If you don’t want them to lie to you, stand up to your supervisor yourself, in front of them. Put your own position at risk, because that’s what you’re asking them to do for you.
No matter how many times you retell the story, it doesn’t make you look any better.
Tim's advice both in the corporate and game design side is generally fantastic. But I 100% agree with you here. Issues like this should be pushed back up the chain not down. Absolutely discuss expectations with your employee's but the wrong doing here was by Tim's boss. Tim says he can't control what his boss does, he's above him, but the same can be said for the employee and his boss' boss. The boss has a pattern of this behaviour and it should be raised with him, and with HR if necessary.
@@PetrifiedPenguinIt undermines trust at every level in the organization when people work like that. I get why Tim would say he can’t trust his subordinate anymore - he can’t if his own boss is going around him and telling them to lie! But making it an accountability issue for the subordinate is the wrong direction to go.
At this point in my age and experience (mid 50s will NEVER be able to retire, canada here) It's about knowing what to take personally and what not. There's going to be times at work where it's tested and it's fairly easy to sus out if someone is just that way with everyone, or if someone is just that way with you. For work that's usually someone not aware they can't be like that. Show them they can't be like that.
Hard dissagree on taking employees to HR for doing what your boss said, thats putting your employees in a lose lose situation they should never be put in, what you should be doing is going to your boss and telling them to stop bypassing you as a manager
100%
shit rolls downhill
@@f.b.l.9813 It does. Good managers try to shield their employees. Bad managers throw them under the bus.
It rolls uphill. @@f.b.l.9813
Hello Tim! Long time listener, first-time commenter. I thoroughly enjoy your content, and consider it amazingly useful for those who choose to listen and apply the lessons they find valuable, into their own endeavors. I have not gotten through all of your videos and existing comments yet, and as such I haven't posted any of my eager questions yet (since you have mentioned asking us to look through existing content first). So I do apologize that the very first thing I ever post is a disagreement when I agree with most of your content; however I felt very strongly about it and have personal experience.
I do disagree with your conclusions from your lens of the situation, with the employee who disobeyed your orders about a game feature and keeping you informed, based on superior orders from a superior of yours. A number of other commentators also disagree. The story as you have presented in your videos, seems to suggest the following:
->The Game Director (a critical role that is not easily fired for minor conflicts, such as the conflicts you seemed to have at least indirectly with this superior) has their orders disobeyed by a subordinate, and believes they have been lied to (it is arguable if is lying, if you ask to be informed about any changes, and were not informed based on upper management decisions; even if you are responsible for final product as the Game Director, that is a YOU problem that comes with the territory of working for superiors)
->The high-up superior going around you to have their way, who seems to impress the idea upon you that they also have sway in HR
->the subordinate employee being ordered by your superior, to countermand your orders
You suggest that you are powerless to inflict change on the superior, you have no say. Yet you seem to state that you had expected the subordinate to inflict change on your superior, to stand up to them in the way that you couldn't. Shouldn't this be an issue that you confront the superior on, to avoid creating a toxic work environment for all your subordinates? Either this behavior is part of this corporation's culture and you are the one who needs to decide if you should work there, or it is not and could have some possible change. This is not a QTIP; a lower-level subordinate does not have the luxury of disobeying a lawful direct order from a superior, and risks being fired for doing do (the threat of poverty is about as personal as it gets).
I must ask: if that employee got fired for disobeying that order, would you risk your career or position in that company to save that low-ranker? You talk about perhaps if HR got involved, they may end up disciplining that employee. That is assuming that that employee did something against corporate policy; something "wrong". Is there further details that we are not privy to, that reflect a wrong behavior by that employee? Because the story you described... happens all the time in companies. All the time a level of management is specifically routed by upper-management to 1 level further down, with orders to not mentioned to that routed level (the idea that by the time they do find out, the concrete has dried so to speak, on that change). It is not lying to withhold information, even if a level of management commands to know everything. The business can decide to withhold information and does it all the time, regardless of the opinions of any subordinate in the chain. If the Game Director feels that it is wrong to have game changes without the Game Director knowing, then get that clear with your superiors; otherwise, standing orders say otherwise and the Game Director is presuming a level of control, that they really dont have/can expect.
If what you really mean is that you expected the employee to kind of let you know somehow that this change happened even if they were ordered not do, BECAUSE you were gonna find out anyway, then I understand; but to be clear, you are asking/expecting that employee, to counteract that other superior's orders, on the down-low so they dont get in trouble ("just pretend you found out by playing it, you didnt hear it from me"; this is assuming you dont consider that lying to that superior). That is about a level of intimacy and trust that you would have to earn from that employee, which is distinct from that employee doing something wrong in corporate's eyes.
I understand that you may not ever read this, and if you do you may not change your mind on your conclusions; just know that every time that story is mentioned, there will be loads of comments saying this response to that story. And part of that is because we experience this all the time (I've had this happen in my work like 4+ times in 12 years, some places may have it a lot more if there is a difficult-to-handle supervisor that people route around all the time).
Anyways, I enjoy 99% of what you post, and hope you continue to do so. Your content is surprisingly motivating and out of an act of pure altruism, and we really all do appreciate the advice and perspective you bring. Thank you!
As I’ve said elsewhere, I did talk to my boss, which resulted in no change. He’s done this before, and he did it later, on my project and other ones. So I told the employee to come to me next time...and if he did not, we'd go to HR. I wanted it to be 100% clear what my expectations were if this happened again. My employee was placed in a terrible situation...BY MY BOSS. As I explained in other comments, his co-workers found out about this situation (since the new feature caused a crash and one of them had to fix it), and I wanted this employee to be trusted by them as well as by me. So I made it clear how I wanted this situation to resolved the next time. And there was a next time.
If coming to me led to my employee being taken to HR by my boss, I would have intervened. I have screened employees from bad bosses before. See my video on Fallout’s delay by a crash bug.
As for my boss, I cannot tell you why he does the things he does. He does it on other projects too, so I don't take it personally. Adam Savage gives good advice.
I've been binge watching your videos these past days and really appreciate all the tips and tricks you've shared. Thank you for sharing!
I have to disagree with your first point about not taking it personally when your boss asks your subordinate to do something against you. This is assuming that neither your boss nor you have your subordinate’s back.
I believe that you should have been the one to confront your boss about this. Your subordinate has no power. You do. And you should be there for him. Otherwise he will learn that he cannot ever trust you to have his back in the future.
If I were the subordinate in this situation, I would first get some assurance from the boss’ boss that I will be protected in case my boss doesn’t agree. I would get this in written form - IM or email would be enough. Then after the event, if my own boss won’t support me, I would have no choice but to leave.
Who knows… maybe that was the plan: the boss and boss’ boss were trying to get me pissed off enough to quit so that they won’t need to give me unemployment.
I've got to disagree on the first one. You're boss didn't put him in an unfair situation, you did by telling them they did something wrong. Your boss has the right to add whatever they want without your permission (although he should respect you enough not to), that's between you guys. You made it the employee's problem when you pursued him for doing exactly what he should and had to do. That's the kind of thing that makes good employees walk away from poorly managed companies. That should have been handled between you and your boss.
Tim Cain watches Tested?! Hell yeah! Two of my favorite creators!
I once worked in a mildly toxic workplace. Learned saying "My lord's lord, but not my lord" very quickly. Only deal with my direct superiors since then and this approach haven't failed me so far.
It's been my experience that the hardest thing to do is to not take criticism of your work as a criticism of you as a person. That's probably true for a lot of people. I think that's a skill you have to work on. The sooner we recognize it's a necessary skill, the sooner we can start working on it. I'll admit I'm not the best at it but at least I'm aware, and that's a start.
Dont expect other adults to act like adults...
I watch both your and Adam's video constantly! It's been very nice to hear all the advice. You've changed the way I perceive businesses and how nuanced situations can be. I mainly write narrative scripts so a lot of the programming doesn't really click but I can see the bigger point you mean through your stories. All that just to say thank you and can't wait to see more!
I have his book- Every Tool is a Hammer.
It’s got good gems such as this in it plus a great history of his life.
One of my favorite creators recomending and cometing a video from another of my favorite creators. This is awesome
Hey Tim, your channel is amazing. I discovered it over the weekend after finish watching the show and watched a few videos other than the show review. It's insightful and very helpful. Thank you!
I love when my favorite channels talk about how they love some of the same creators! Between your games & adam savage when he was on the Mythbusters you two have really helped me maintain my sense of curiosity well into adulthood, it's very appreciated!
What would have been the correct action by your employee?
He should have told me about the new feature. I was going to find out anyway. If that caused a problem with my boss, I’d have stepped in and taken the heat. I’ve done that on past projects, even if it cost me. Ultimately, it’s a bad situation caused by my boss.
@@CainOnGamesThis is what you should have told him to do in the future instead of threatening him.
@@Me__Myself__and__II did tell him to do that. And I told him what would happen if he didn’t.
"I see people making lots of mistakes, like demanding to have a lead role or be a director or whatever and they've been in the industry like two, three, five years"
Curious -- other devs in these comments, what would you each say is the "average" number of years being in the industry before it's appropriate to start bringing up the idea of taking on a director role?
I’m not sure what the average is. For me, I worked for 13 years before getting to be a director
Hi Tim, thank you for sharing your game dev life with us. Not many industry leaders share their experiences, but it is very useful for us young developers to be inspired by your life and work.
I've been looking for channels to replace all the drama-stirring chaff with, and I feel foolish for not even considering Adam Savage's channel! Cheers for the recommend, and congrats on 100k!
Thank you for sharing these stories, im fairly early in my career but recently got promoted to a lead and these videos give a lot of good advice and things for me to think about. It has been very helpful for me
Don't take it personally and let your boss control HIS employees, it's not your company, it's not your game, if he wants to ruin it then let him.
Can you make more Outer Worlds videos? Ever since I played the game I haven't been able to get enough of the behind the scenes.
And also speaking of Mythbusters it would be amazing if they were still around and had done a Fallout episode testing some of the ideas from Fallout.
I think Tim has said before he can't really cover too much of The Outer Worlds development, mostly because there is still a sequel in development and one of his semi-retirement gigs is consulting for Obsidian on the sequel. Talking about development of the first game my overlap with some the work he's doing for the second, which could risk triggering any NDA clauses he is still under. Plus, there was a fair amount cut from the first game that I'm sure were kept around as ideas for the sequel, so he may also be trying to avoid giving anything away.
It's a shame, I too would love to hear more about TOW (I really love the Noclip documentary series on it, I rewatch it regularly!) but I guess we'll get more from Tim about once TOW2 has dropped and been out for a little bit.
I love how you wholeheartedly reccomend people you've learned from, eg. Adam Savage in this case, or Like Stories of Old in I think two other cases.
I literally watched that video the other week and thought: “This sounds strangely like Tim”
Congrats on the 100k!
I am confused. Won't your boss direction overwrite yours in the case of first example?
Yes, my boss can order me to put things in the game, and he has in the past. And I’ve done it.
But telling someone on my team to do it and not tell me, well that puts everyone in a bad situation. I’ve lost trust in both of them, and the employee is caught in the middle.
My expectation is that my boss would come to me, and when that doesn’t happen, that my employee would tell me what he’s been asked to do. When those things don’t happen, then I’m caught in the middle.
@@CainOnGames Ok it makes much more sense now.
Great points. These issues often arise in a highly technical driven product or service.
This seems like good advice for outside of work too. If you don't take personal things personally, they're a lot easier to deal with.
A crossover episode i didn't know i need to watch
I think the forgive but never forget is such an important thing to takeaway as a programmer.
I'm just a junior programmer near the end of my days in university, but in my early days I was so paranoid of my programs for lower CS classes to be flagged for plagiarism. Since our assignments would be very simple, and the class size was over 30, assuming the code was only compared to within my section and not all sections of that semester, it would not be unlikely for two students who don't know each other to turn in identical programs, so to counter this I developed a really, really bad habit of naming variables things I know other people would not. This started with funny names like "hardlyworkingarray" but when I started using loops I made a habit of not using x,y,z or i,j,k but instead something like a,aa,aaa, or e,ee,eee.
By the time I took my second programming course this habit was made pretty much unnecessary, and it's fun to have funny variable names if they still make sense or if its for a one time assignment you won't have to look over again, but I unfortunately had the habit of those horrible increment counter variable names within loops. Well when I started my Data Structures class my sophomore year, I eventually had some assignment where I made the horrible decision of implementing some sort of system I barely understood as a 3D array. I procrastinated really bad that whole semester, so I probably gave myself around 6 hours or less to do the whole thing, and of course I didn't get it done.
But the big thing that stopped me from being able to finish or fix my broken code was that for 2 hours I was stuck with some bug I for the life of me could not understand. The due date went by and I couldn't fix the code, but what matters is that my best friend who was also taking the class came to my dorm room and for an hour and a half we debugged my code, and I'll never forget at 1am we saw that I had accidently written a '0' (number zero) instead of an 'o' (letter o) somewhere in the triple nested for loop. I must have used the letter 'o' as an incrementing integer which is just one of the worst decisions I could of made. So now I not only know never to use such a misreadable variable name, but I constantly notice the font of the IDE and the difference between a '0' and an 'o' and an 'O', and also a lowercase 'l' (L) versus an uppercase 'I" (i). This actually helped train me catch type errors like that and is great when I'm in a group project and reviewing a partners code when debugging and I'm able to catch a mistake like that which could possibly save an hour or more.
I feel like it's almost good to be embarrassed by mistakes like that and something like a >= instead of > when doing logical comparisons. The fact that I know I've made basic mistakes makes me extra cautious to not do them, or at least be aware that if I have an error or some bug this could be the reason.
For the first example, the issue isn't about taking it personally, it's about management BS putting an employee in a lose-lose situation. If a middle manager doesn't like that an employee obeyed an upper manager against their wishes, they should take it up with the upper manager. Never take it out on the employee who's just trying to do their job.
I did talk to the upper manager. He did it again later, on my project and other projects. What do you think should be the next step?
@@CainOnGames At that point, I'd continue to call him out when he did it or at least ask him to keep you in the loop, but ultimately if he's your boss then his decision is the one that's going to win, so I wouldn't reprimand my employees for obeying him. Doesn't change the fact that he's a terrible boss, but neither does blaming the employee, and if I was the employee I'd be much more willing to go the extra mile for an understanding manager who had my corner.
@@CainOnGames Coming from another angle, as an employee I've been in that situation and I refused to lie to my immediate manager, so I emailed them both together and asked them to decide together what I should do. They hashed it out and I got a clear answer, which to me is the best outcome, so from that perspective I get what you're saying. It's the not telling the manager that's the problem, and I understand why the manager would be professionally annoyed at that.
Exactly. That’s what I wished had happened the first time. That he had just come to me.
I did continue to call out my boss. I had told the employee to come to me if it happened again, and he did when it happened the second time, so he didn’t get into any trouble.
Meanwhile, I had to handle the problems these new features added. The first one caused a crash to occur.
@@CainOnGames Fair enough! Just want to clarify that based on all your videos I'm absolutely sure that you'd be a great boss to work for.
congrats to 100k from me too! that was quite a quick jump from 60ish to 100k
Tim Cain / Adam Savage crossover video when?
I've actually been on a somewhat similar situation to your story and in mine, I was the employee in question and I handled it differently. As soon as I realized that I was asked to do something behind the back of one of my bosses, I stood up mid conversation and basically dragged boss A to boss's B office, told them what was going on and that I am not doing anything until they figure it out. And I left.
I don't know what they talked about in there but I was never bothered about it again from either boss nor did I feel affected by it in any way for the two years I stayed with that company.
I salute you!
Excellent video as always!
One thing about bugs is you should always be aware of changes you make and also test important parts that can cause a serious crash carefully. I can't think of a big bug I made where I was totally mystified except where I had some debug stuff enabled accidentally that caused a slowdown. Like with the memory manager library you used, it is hard to believe they had a bug in such a critical area that was obviously simply never tested. That's pretty neglicgent in such critical code, That is what I would be most disturbed by if someone made a lock bug like that which took so long to figure out. And while sourcesafe is garbage I am pretty sure it is easy to check on what was checked in and when and go through versions to find where someone introduced a bug they can't find. I have done that many times.
Chains that bind violation, you should Hardin that Elder.
Tim, do you have any thoughts or stories behind Fallout Tactics? I know you've been long gone from Interplay by this point, however F:T does things that you mentioned marketing wanted you to put into Fallout 1 - multiplayer, realtime combat. It would be interesting to hear your take on F:T, cheers!
Implementing unique AI systems for individual characters would take the concept of replayability to entirely new heights. Here's how:
Infinitely Unfolding Journeys:
No Two Playthroughs the Same: Every encounter with a character would be different, based not only on your choices but on how that specific character's AI evolves over time.
Emergent Narratives: Relationships, rivalries, or even betrayals could organically develop within the game world based on choices you made early on having ripple effects later.
Thanks, Tim. I needed that.
What a ccol guy to get advice from. He was great starring in Wonder Years.
(Yes, I'm aware)
Hey Tim; wanted to ask if you were consulted at all on the production of Fallout Tactics, it was helped made by micro forte here in australia. 😉 🇦🇺
Qtip is SO important in so many jobs. I don't know how many coworkers I've seen over the years lose their jobs willingly or otherwise because they couldn't separate personal feelings from the stresses of the job. I think it also goes hand in hand with the last point as well, that you should prioritize dealing with the immediate problem in the moment, and everything else later.
I have to do it almost every day at my current job. Between asshole customers, an overly aggressive manager, and general problems. My direct manager is absolutely miserable because she's really bad at it. She yells at people, harasses us about what we're doing, and even came in while on medical leave for a broken leg to walk the back room. She's fought me many times over things her own bosses told us both to do.
Honestly, I don't know how long she can keep going like that, it will cost her her job and her health.
I really like that you give credit to Adam Savage but also build off his ideas
Not the crossover I expected 😂 spend all day listening to tested
"It's not personal, it's just business." -Some Cliche Mob Boss
have you talked at about how you feel about corporate structure as a general concept?
Tested is a great channel!
that's great advice to keep with me, thank you
Who doesn't love mythbusters 🎉
Myths, evidently.
That's very stoic!
My buddy Pearry Teo gave some less than great advice as I was getting into my first role as a vfx producer, "it's not about whether you're willing to get fucked or not. It's how hard and how long."
Which is a variation on, "don't take it personally," going into it with the full knowledge you're jumping into a shark tank with the sharks, who are going to run your body and mind for all it is worth and put it away wet & dirty, then try to under pay you on the contract you both agreed to, signed by all the lawyers. They WILL try to underpay you, or if they can get away with it, not pay you at all. You have fight for yourself, and your crew, tooth and nail, getting up in the business of an executive whose desk costs more than your annual income.
You can do as good of a job as humanly possible, get lucky and pull off a win that borders on miraculous under extreme pressure... and they still try to fuck you.
I don't know how you don't take *that* personally. I don't know if I ever will.
Hey Tim!! I don't know if you'll read my comment nor respond to it but I wonder if you'll ever consider working on a Fallout project again? Like maybe one day Todd will hire you as an adviser or some sort for the Fallout franchise, something like that.
The saga of the turbo plasma rifle
Im passing though something like that. im 25, game programmer. I am the only programmer in the project and it pays soo bad but im more interested in failing and leaning from it but sometimes is hard, mainly cause i got bills to pay xd
Tim, hi. Tell me, are you still involved in game development, or are you just consulting developers? I just have a great idea for the game universe. It is a kind of combination of elements of TES and Fallout. If you are interested in this, or you think that the original game universe might be of interest to Obsidian, I can describe my idea to you.
Mistakes aren't a bad thing unless the person who makes it learns nothing from it. Mistakes can help you improve.
Any advice for running a GURPS Fallout tabletop rpg??!
I love gurps! My advice is to bring a calculator 😂
It’s a miscommunication between you and the boss, so you are part the problem not the employee.
And what about the other 'part' of the problem? Nice logic skill 1000 user-yk1cw lol 🗑️
@@stevejobs3816 the boss? Did you forget you have a brain?
Huh? Is Tim supposed to read the mind of a boss that doesn't communicate with him?
Tim even said the boss was known for going around his under-bosses. Was Tim just supposed to guess when he would do this to him?
I do wonder what Tim expected the dude under him to do tell Tim's BOSS no and risk his career 🤷♂️
Exactly. Seems a lack of rapport/trust if an employee doesn't even inform you. Sounds like the employee is at a lose-lose if Tim takes them to HR or if Tim's boss blacklists/disciplines them for not listening. Everyone purpetuates the system because of their own stake.
Hi Tim - do you plan on attending any game conventions or conferences in the near future?
I just got fired last week for the same reason, thank you for this Video
You got fired because you boss's boss had you do something? If so that sucks, but please understand Tim was wrong on this. He acted poorly. Don't apply anything he said here to yourself or your future.
Is this boss someone that rhymes with Ryan Largo?
Stuff like the first situation is why antiwork is so huge. People just arent willing now to spend 30+ years of abuse to finally be able to walk away. Can you blame them?
If your boss wants something done and you don't, I think the problem is you, not the boss, not the employee that did the thing.
Now, if the thing is good, bad or anything in between, is another matter of discussion, but given you're taking so long with the issue, seems like you actually did take it personally.
I think you need to take your own advice. YOUR boss put your employee in a bad position with a directive you disagree with and rather than addressing the concern with the individual in question, you instead have put the onus for resolution of an issue onto your subordinate. You seem to have unrealistic expectations in this particular instance. How could they not take it personally when you seemingly take out your boss's decisions on them? You've been a part of some great games, but this is some of the worst management advice I've ever heard. You're the manager. You should be the one to resolve this conflict rather than allow the burden of it be handled by someone under you. And then you have the nerve to say something like "don't take it personally. It's just business." Dude, part of your job is resolving these sorts of issues.
What an obscenely terrible take.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I did talk to my boss, which resulted in no change. He’s done this before, and he did it later. So I told the employee to come to me next time...and if he did not, we'd go to HR. I wanted it to be 100% clear what my expectations were if this happened again. My employee was placed in a terrible situation...BY MY BOSS. As I explained in other comments, his co-workers found out about this situation (since the new feature caused a crash and one of them had to fix it), and I wanted this employee to be trusted by them as well as by me. So I made it clear how I wanted this situation to resolved the next time. And there was a next time.
As for my boss, I cannot tell you why he does the things he does. He does it on other projects too, so I don't take it personally. Adam Savage gives good advice.
❤
are u allowed 2 talk about the outer worlds backup designs?
The worldbuilding of Fallout holds up so well, even a TV show is made. Was that luck or skill ?
The first situation about conflict with hierarchy was not explained very well by you. If that situation is not well explain in same work regulations, you basically behave as bad as your boss. This is telling me that you are very bad with management of your subordinate. It IS not an employ job to decide who he has to listen to. The solution is to go to HR with your boss and an employee and decide what to do. You exhibited unprofessional and cowardly conduct due to your apprehension that the superior may disregard your decisions or utilize them against you.The only mistake an employee did was that he didn't inform you, but if that was giving as an order from the boss (to not tell you) is still not his fault. So you can't blame him...but you kind of did. I don't see anything professional about it, it was exclusively personal (power play).
Just some professional bullying, nothing personal. Great work Tim.
I am sorry. But in my eyes, the story about your higher up telling something to do to your subordinate programmer.
Is a huge failure on your part.
You should clerify this with your superior it’s either:
a) you bend to his idea
b) he is to not interfere and you told officially that nobody is to take any requests from you
You basically dodged your responsibility as a director and outsourced it to a staff member who should finish tasks and not take your burden.
I am sorry but this is kinda pathetic
Mr. Timmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah I took things personal, but people gotta not act like an ahole with quippy remarks putting people down in my position. That triggered me.
I’ve very curious to know what your boss wanted added that you didn’t that he went around you for. Also.
Who is John galt?
Hi Tim!!!
Damn Tim. I've been around the block many times and managed people. I didn't take you as a shitty boss, but seems I was wrong. Hearing this I would never work for you. If you can't control your boss your employee certainly can't. Your boss is going to have more power over your direct than you. They can't say no to him. They can inform you. They should have come to you immediately. THAT is what you should have told your employee, if this happens again come tell me immediately. You should not have threatened them with HR. Had I been that person I would have immediately gone to HR to report you then your boss to inform him and request a transfer. You threatened them for doing their job. That is ultra shitty.
This story he's trying to use as an example of "don't take it personally" is, transparently, an example of when he took something extremely personally. And, honestly, I don't exactly blame him for it. I think in his shoes I would struggle a great deal not to take that situation personally. I also think that the take-away of "don't take it personally" is a good thing to strive for in that situation (edit: however difficult that might be). It's just, the actions he's describing are absolutely not him succeeding to not take it personally. His actions against his subordinate are petty and ugly. It comes across as extremely delusional.
You clearly taking it personally.
Yeh, this guy tick me off since the first video, he seems deceptive af
@@AlligatorTower Agreed. Shit rolls down hill. A good manager tries to shield those under them from above. This issue really was with his boss. But his employee got caught up in it (do to no fault of theirs) and since Tim felt helpless to handle his boss he instead punched down. Ugly story. Sadly I didn't get the impression Tim learned not to punch down from the story, had that been his take away....
@@Me__Myself__and__I Truly. What's the subordinate supposed to do if Tim's boss asks him to add something else next week? "No Tim asked me not to do that" "Sure but I'm Tim's boss so it doesn't matter" "Oh ok cool guess I'll just quit then".
As you say, it doesn't seem like he learned the right lesson. And the side eyes I've given to some of the other stories he's told (I've only watched a few videos) make me want to steer clear of this guy.
Don't abuse your sister?
Years later, you will still be THE Tim Cain, while what-his-name fades into obscurity
3:00
You basically could start a channel called "Brian Fargo is an asshole" and it would have the exact same videos.
sucks to suck
What, like, dont put a cannon ball through a house and end your show?
Could devs being softer today than they were previously, or appearing so, be explained by they have spent more time at school and less time at work?
Are they softer or are they standing up for themselves more?
What a terrible take lol😂