Just found you through World of Antiquity’s channel, subscribed and looking forward to going through your content. Your live vid with World of Antiquity was fascinating 👍
Ditto, I'm interested in this area too, but know little about it. I'm an archaeologist also, in Ireland. Well, technically I didn't get to graduate yet as during the pandemic I was diagnosed with tongue cancer so had to leave my 4th year degree in Sligo. However I did pass 3rd year and might just see if I can leave it at that. I couldn't face 4th year again lol! Not the sort of pressure I can deal with anytime soon.
Were they using coins at that time? Or barter for goods? Just asking because gold is a pretty shiny thing, but it would be useless beyond decorative purposes. Rare so not everyone would have it. Valuable to us obviously, but would it have been to them? And where would it be mined? Or would it have been like panning out of the river in nuggets? The seal thing’s of gold makes sense because it’s so soft it’s easy to work. So I guess what I wonder is if the value of it is practical more than monetary. If so it could explains the density of finds in the pit graves.
A few quick responses: coinage isn't invented for several hundred more years. There is no source of gold in the region nor in adjacent regions. Gold as symbolic of wealth is clear both from its trade and its use in making precious, decorative elements like jewelry or for adorning more functional items. It's value is also inferred from its choice of deposition. Precious metals were definitely rare and considered valuable based on the evidence we have.
@@FlintDibble thanks. It was a thing that nagged me. The gold. Just that we today hold such high value to it, could we be mistaken about it in the earlier societies. Guess bling out weighed need even then lol
Great discussion. Very illuminating. Do you think the excavated palace of Pylos is the actual main palace of Mycenaean Pylos? In other words "Nestor's palace."?
The Pylos Combat Agate show a minoan warrior killing a mycenaean warrior and one more dead mycenaean warrior laying at the ground. Could the way we think we "know" the history be wrong ? What if it was not til myceneans whom took over the minoan Crete but the other way around? Or some myceneans came to Crete to get a king?
The warriors on the Pylos Combat Agate are not identified as Minoans or Mycenaeans. We do not know exactly who they were, their ethnic identity, or whether they could relate to the oral epic tradition or not. While it would be nice to be able to answer such questions, scholars really aren't sure.
"They could have been Minoans themselves" Yes, pretty much. Lazaridis 2017 (The Genetic Origins of the Minoans and Myceaneans) as well as The Genomic History of the Aegean Palatial civilizations in 2021 found that Mycenaeans mainly descend from the Minoans.
These articles suggest both the Minoans and Mycenaeans both descended from Neolithic peoples who entered the region thousands of years earlier While that's true in broad brush strokes, a lot more work needs to be done to add detail to the genetic makeup and diversity of people living in the Minoan, Mycenaean, and adjacent regions
@@FlintDibble Yes, they are primarily Neolithic Anatolian from the initial migration into Europe from Anatolia, which spread farming. Minoans have an additional contribution from Iranian Neolithic farmers, it is believed that this entered the Mediterranean around 3000BCE, not as 100% Iran Neolithic but as a balanced mixture of Anatolia Neolithic and Iran Neolithic. Kura-Araxes is a candidate. Mycenaeans also have another component, Steppe or "Yamnaya-like" admixture, about 15%, and the rest is Anatolia Neolithic and some Iran Neolithic. Possible candidates for this is Armenia Bronze Age (could explain why Greek is more related to Armenian than other European languages) and another small contribution from the Balkans. So far this is still studied, but what's conclusive is Mycenaeans being at least 2/3 Minoan. My point is, we know the genetics of these populations. Cycladics too. I found your vid after Lazaridis posted it on his tw, maybe you can ask him a few things regarding Minoan and Mycenaean genetics for clarification.
Sorry, one other thought on the isotope analysis. I'm not suggesting the individual was necessarily Minoan, only that Pylos may have given the Minoan refugees a place to live after the eruption. Remember, Pylos is (I believe) the only Mycenean citadel without the cyclopean walls surrounding it, and had many buildings built in the Minoan style.
@@SummerSun-sg3wf No argument that the Griffin Warrior was Greek (Pylosian), but that Pylos was home to a large percentage of Minoans after the Thera eruption. Which would figure, given the large amount of Minoan goods at Pylos, and the architectural similarities.
Maybe, just maybe, they were a portion of the survivors of the Theran eruption. To date, there is no evidence that anyone died at Thera, and given the devastation on Crete caused but the mega-tsunami, the survivors had to go somewhere safe. Pylos comes to mind... given it was nowhere near the destruction caused by the eruption. Equally important is the distribution of the "rings and things" in the grave. It looks like they may have been thrown in individually, like flowers at a grave in modern burials.
@@FlintDibble I believe they dated the Griffin Warrior bones to circa 1450 bce. And despite what the olive branch dating says, the Theran eruption probably happened closer to 1500 (or even 1470) bce than 1620 bce. This is based on a whole host of factors, the most important of which is the seeming total lack of archeological evidence of an impact on the Minoan culture circa the 1600 time frame. I know this is still widely debated, but new evidence coming in from around the eastern Med seems to be supporting the 1500 date.
Θαυμάσια αντικείμενα - τεχνουργήματα ενός προοδευμένου πολιτισμού , του πρώτου επί ευρωπα'ι'κού εδάφους . Έπειτα μάλιστα και από την αποκρυπτογράφηση της μυκηνα'ι'κής γραφής είναι βέβαιον ότι οι Μυκηναίοι μιλούσαν ελληνικά και ήσαν Ινδοευρωπαίοι/Καυκάσιοι .
a great story, and an incredible event. lots of young people or old would love to have a chance to dig up anything close to this. I suppose "excavate" would be more appropriate. thanks for sharing. those greek shamans are so powerful they can transform you into something more beautiful and elevated. you probably didn't need a flight home.
Just found you through World of Antiquity’s channel, subscribed and looking forward to going through your content. Your live vid with World of Antiquity was fascinating 👍
Ditto, I'm interested in this area too, but know little about it. I'm an archaeologist also, in Ireland. Well, technically I didn't get to graduate yet as during the pandemic I was diagnosed with tongue cancer so had to leave my 4th year degree in Sligo. However I did pass 3rd year and might just see if I can leave it at that. I couldn't face 4th year again lol! Not the sort of pressure I can deal with anytime soon.
I've waited so long to have this opportunity; a dedicated presentation of my heroes' legacies. Thanks, doc
Heard of flint due to upcoming debate with graham. Can't wait to learn!
Subbed!
Thanks!
Wow!
great video!
Do you know what that black stuff is, on the stones, inside the Tomb of Agamemnon? Thanks.
Were they using coins at that time? Or barter for goods? Just asking because gold is a pretty shiny thing, but it would be useless beyond decorative purposes. Rare so not everyone would have it. Valuable to us obviously, but would it have been to them? And where would it be mined? Or would it have been like panning out of the river in nuggets? The seal thing’s of gold makes sense because it’s so soft it’s easy to work. So I guess what I wonder is if the value of it is practical more than monetary. If so it could explains the density of finds in the pit graves.
A few quick responses: coinage isn't invented for several hundred more years. There is no source of gold in the region nor in adjacent regions. Gold as symbolic of wealth is clear both from its trade and its use in making precious, decorative elements like jewelry or for adorning more functional items. It's value is also inferred from its choice of deposition.
Precious metals were definitely rare and considered valuable based on the evidence we have.
@@FlintDibble thanks. It was a thing that nagged me. The gold. Just that we today hold such high value to it, could we be mistaken about it in the earlier societies. Guess bling out weighed need even then lol
Great discussion. Very illuminating. Do you think the excavated palace of Pylos is the actual main palace of Mycenaean Pylos? In other words "Nestor's palace."?
Those dogs were there when I visited in 2020. Sweethearts
The Pylos Combat Agate show a minoan warrior killing a mycenaean warrior and one more dead mycenaean warrior laying at the ground.
Could the way we think we "know" the history be wrong ? What if it was not til myceneans whom took over the minoan Crete but the other way around? Or some myceneans came to Crete to get a king?
The warriors on the Pylos Combat Agate are not identified as Minoans or Mycenaeans. We do not know exactly who they were, their ethnic identity, or whether they could relate to the oral epic tradition or not.
While it would be nice to be able to answer such questions, scholars really aren't sure.
Thanks Flint!👍So amazing.
It would be interesting to see the DNA results from the tomb you found.
Were there any inscriptions in the tomb?
nope, no inscriptions. not sure if the team is analyzing aDNA (I'd imagine so, but don't know)
Greek.
@FlintDibble supposedly I have ancestry with the Griffin Warrior. If so that's cool 👍
Is the gold thin enough it would be an actual death mask or is it an artistic representation?
No, no death mask. It's gold jewelry like the 4 gold seal rings
Great video! Thanks
Nice video !
burying gold maintains its rarity and therefore its value. market influenced burial practises.
Excellent
It reminds me of Crates and Hipparchia giving up all their wealth to live as cynics in the model of Diogenes.
Was it?
"They could have been Minoans themselves"
Yes, pretty much. Lazaridis 2017 (The Genetic Origins of the Minoans and Myceaneans) as well as The Genomic History of the Aegean Palatial civilizations in 2021 found that Mycenaeans mainly descend from the Minoans.
These articles suggest both the Minoans and Mycenaeans both descended from Neolithic peoples who entered the region thousands of years earlier
While that's true in broad brush strokes, a lot more work needs to be done to add detail to the genetic makeup and diversity of people living in the Minoan, Mycenaean, and adjacent regions
@@FlintDibble Yes, they are primarily Neolithic Anatolian from the initial migration into Europe from Anatolia, which spread farming.
Minoans have an additional contribution from Iranian Neolithic farmers, it is believed that this entered the Mediterranean around 3000BCE, not as 100% Iran Neolithic but as a balanced mixture of Anatolia Neolithic and Iran Neolithic. Kura-Araxes is a candidate.
Mycenaeans also have another component, Steppe or "Yamnaya-like" admixture, about 15%, and the rest is Anatolia Neolithic and some Iran Neolithic. Possible candidates for this is Armenia Bronze Age (could explain why Greek is more related to Armenian than other European languages) and another small contribution from the Balkans. So far this is still studied, but what's conclusive is Mycenaeans being at least 2/3 Minoan.
My point is, we know the genetics of these populations. Cycladics too.
I found your vid after Lazaridis posted it on his tw, maybe you can ask him a few things regarding Minoan and Mycenaean genetics for clarification.
DNA proved him to be Greek
Really Cool Flint! How amazing.
Thank you! Cheers!
And who's to say if it all actually made it into the tomb, 😉😉
If flint had mr beast numbers we would finally find all the worlds secrets lol
Sorry, one other thought on the isotope analysis. I'm not suggesting the individual was necessarily Minoan, only that Pylos may have given the Minoan refugees a place to live after the eruption. Remember, Pylos is (I believe) the only Mycenean citadel without the cyclopean walls surrounding it, and had many buildings built in the Minoan style.
DNA said he was Greek
@@SummerSun-sg3wf No argument that the Griffin Warrior was Greek (Pylosian), but that Pylos was home to a large percentage of Minoans after the Thera eruption. Which would figure, given the large amount of Minoan goods at Pylos, and the architectural similarities.
Maybe, just maybe, they were a portion of the survivors of the Theran eruption. To date, there is no evidence that anyone died at Thera, and given the devastation on Crete caused but the mega-tsunami, the survivors had to go somewhere safe. Pylos comes to mind... given it was nowhere near the destruction caused by the eruption. Equally important is the distribution of the "rings and things" in the grave. It looks like they may have been thrown in individually, like flowers at a grave in modern burials.
unlikely given the timing of everything. But if they did isotope analysis on the individual they could determine that question perhaps
@@FlintDibble I believe they dated the Griffin Warrior bones to circa 1450 bce. And despite what the olive branch dating says, the Theran eruption probably happened closer to 1500 (or even 1470) bce than 1620 bce. This is based on a whole host of factors, the most important of which is the seeming total lack of archeological evidence of an impact on the Minoan culture circa the 1600 time frame. I know this is still widely debated, but new evidence coming in from around the eastern Med seems to be supporting the 1500 date.
Θαυμάσια αντικείμενα - τεχνουργήματα ενός προοδευμένου πολιτισμού , του πρώτου επί ευρωπα'ι'κού εδάφους . Έπειτα μάλιστα και από την αποκρυπτογράφηση της μυκηνα'ι'κής γραφής είναι βέβαιον ότι οι Μυκηναίοι μιλούσαν ελληνικά και ήσαν Ινδοευρωπαίοι/Καυκάσιοι .
oh my gods, being a huge nerd about this stuff i cant believe ive never heard of this dig! amazing! found you through the bridge podcast with milo!
a great story, and an incredible event. lots of young people or old would love to have a chance to dig up anything close to this. I suppose "excavate" would be more appropriate. thanks for sharing. those greek shamans are so powerful they can transform you into something more beautiful and elevated. you probably didn't need a flight home.
What was it like? Absolutely amazing and mind-blowing discovery.
Hah it was strange. I think in an interview on the find, I mentioned that it felt like doing archaeology in the 19th century
You've done things people dream about. Congratulations on your accomplishments
"Mycenae rich in gold" - just as Homer wrote.
“Mycenae the one, Mycenae em all”- unknown
Damn such an interesting video u made there!
Awesome
You are the pseudo scientist