I really enjoy sticking a warlock’s hex on a target before an ability score-centric tactic like telekinesis or a grapple goes off. Hex doesn’t have to be useless at high levels! If it makes another character do what they do better, it’s worth more than that extra d6 per hit.
hex doesn't work on saving throws, only ability checks. Telekentic: the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward or away from you. A creature can willingly fail this save. hex: The target has disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability. bestow curse: While Cursed, the target has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Saving Throws made with that ability score. So whilst it doesn't work with telekentic, it does work with a normal grapple as that uses an ability check
Good examples of useful spells to use even with legendary resistance! That said, I find that it does matter a *lot* on the DM/party. Some DMs use legendary resistances very early on, against even small instances (like using it against spirit guardians/cantrips) - where a few spellcasters can spam out the legendary resistances with a few small spells early on. Alternatively, with a bunch of spellcasters in a party (and with decent amounts of rests), it can be comparatively easy! 2-3 spellcasters using Tasha's mind whip can fairly quickly burn through legendary resistances in 1-2 rounds.
It really depends on the game master. In major "boss monster" encounters where there is only one or possibly two targets I"ll tend to apply legendary resistances: This is a big moment, I don't need it to land with a thud because my boss monster failed a con save against quivering palm on their first turn. That being said, I'm very particular about the kinds of effects that I burn legendary resistance on. I'll let spells like Polymorph and Banishment rock: These spells are only moving the fight forward in time (Even if the creature is extraplanar, it'll find it's way back and it'll have a grudge)... but spells like Hold Monster that give the PCs potentially multiple free turns to wail on this thing with free crits can do far more damage. I'm more worried about Stunning Strike than Mind Whip. While personally I would rather have multiple minions in play alongside the boss monster, I also understand the game is Dungeons and Dragons. Not Dungeons, Dragons, and the assorted lackies that the dragon has amassed to make the encounter more interesting. There is a fantasy of the one party of brave adventurers against a singular, powerful monster that is attractive, and that's what legendary resistance is around to preserve. (Also you need a *really* big bad guy to make 1v4 a challenge in D&D 5e)
magic resistance and legendary resistance are the reasons why i don't like relying on save or suck spells on my builds, especially from late tier 2 onwards. i prefer core tactics are either skill check spells (telekinesis/bigby's hand), spell attacks (scorching ray, inflict wounds), no save spells (magic missile, wall of force) or sustainable spells that do something on a successful save (call lightning, spirit guardians). this way i never have to waste my action and resources trying to power through magic resistance and just eventually waste my turn to get hard shutdown by legendary resistance. i'm always do something effective while totally avoiding this mechanic.
Even at low levels, I mostly avoid single target save-or-suck spells. On every caster, I try to have at least one buff spell too, just in case I don't have a visible target.
Legendary resistance is where your battlemaster and Monk shine. Burn legendary resistance vs trip and menacing attacks and stunning strikes. Battle master feels awesome, spellcaster feels awesome. Go team.
The only times I have intentionally burned through a monster's legendary resistance were the times when killing the monster was not an option. For instance, the time an archdevil hijacked my party's teleportation out of hell into the mortal plane. There is no way we would have survived the battle long enough to drop its hit points to zero. So the two spellcasters on our team spammed Banishment against him until it stuck.
I do wonder what the split is on DM's announcing "the enemy rolls a 21 and saves" vs "the enemy passes the saving throw" vs "the enemy fails the save, but uses a Legendary resistance to succeed." If players *are* going the route of using lesser spells to try to burn Legendaries before using their big spells, that little difference in how it is announced has a big influence on player strategies. Of course, non-saving throw based strategies like this video covered are generally a more effective strategy. Doesn't mean I haven't seen plenty of parties go for a "burn the Legendaries" strategy.
I know it effects strategies at our table. I say they use their legendarys others DMs don't. While they don't necessarily go for a burn their legendarys strategy either way they factor it in and are more willing to use spells as at least know they burned the legendary. High damage save for half spells for example being used, if they use it fine they burn a use, if not hey I did high damage. And for a boss losing over 10% of its HP from a spell might be a good reason to, ignore that too many times and you are out of HP.
When I'm DMing, I always make it clear when a creature uses Legendary Resistance. Having your stuff not work feels bad, so it's important to make it clear to my players that their spell or ability did do something - it forced the enemy to spend a resource. It lets them feel like they're making progress against the enemy, even if they didn't do damage. It also helps them figure out which saves to target - a creature that keeps passing Dex saves naturally should probably not be Fireballed again, but a creature with 10 Dex who has to use Legendary Resistance each time is quite a different story.
I only announce if the creature passed the save or not. I find it discourages this whole attitude of trying to whittle down legendary resistances before trying all their save or suck spells and instead focus on other ways to help the party. Instead of trying to cheapen the boss encounter by polymorphing them, they might instead use wall of fire which save or not will still do something, or they might polymorph another player into a giant ape, all a lot more interesting than wasting resources whittling down LR's just to turn it into a newt by the time the battle was pretty much over anyway.
The group I play with doesn't state that. It's just Player A: "Duke NecroPants needs a 37 to save against my Hedge of Hedgehogs!" DM: "Duke NecroPants passes through the Hedge of Hedgehogs, and appears to suffer no damage!" Player B: "Dang, this guy must have some legendary resistances!" It feels more like an epic story that way, to me. There are some hints about things ("Duke NecroPants gasps as the fireball engulfs him, and as the smoke and ash clears, you can see his clothing is clearly scorched, and large areas of skin are flaking off like a phone book in a fireplace."), but we avoid technical talk as much as we can.
My personal issue with this topic is that a single spell that shuts down an encounter is generally unfun for everyone, regardless of how optimal if would be
That's an encounter design issue imo. I'm a Pathfinder GM so the numbers get a bit swingier but the same logic applies - the biggest threat will get shut down the quickest, players aren't idiots, it doesn't matter what you do they're going to go all-in on the most threatening monster and either delete it or nullify it as quickly as possible. My solutions have been: - Divide the power budget of the encounter between 2+ big threats. This is the obvious solution, it's harder to disable 2 weaker creatures in 1 turn than it is to shut down a single stronger one. Works better in Pathfinder where moving cuts into your attacks. - Make sure the minions have scary effects. Will the party nova the Lich when his Wight minions inflict max hp drain and will die a whole lot faster? 5e doesn't have many nasty long-term debuffs like other editions to my knowledge so your mileage may vary here, Wights with level drain tend to attract a lot of fire. - Dedicated bodyguard minions. Shield Guardian is the obvious one here but a cleric/paladin healbot/buffbot can work too, I'm sure you can work out other options. These creatures can be fairy individually weak so as not to take up too much of the encounter's power budget. - Compound encounters. This is my personal favourite. Have an encounter that's secretly 2 or more encounters. You start with 1 encounter worth of enemies then as soon as that one stops being a threat the second one busts down the door and joins in, or you put it on a timer so the party knows they need to burn resources to end the first fight quickly or things will escalate to unmanageable levels when the 2nd group joins. This is the best way I've found to get more encounters in per long rest.
I think it sort of depends on the odds. In say highish level 2e where a boss might have magic resistance of 50% and make their saves on a 5, it never came across as boring in my experience. It was rare enough that everyone had a blast due to the how unlikely it was. It was the type of thing people would mention years later rare. Now in 5e where something like bigbys or telekinesis is a auto win against say something like a demi-lich its not that fun. Having bigbys prepared isn't some weird i can't believe that spell worked eureka moment or a particularly clever tactic, its a great spell on its own and its obvious a tiny skull would be weak vs it. That kind of ends up boring. Though the demi-lich is pretty poorly designed for a supposedly CR 18 creature imo.
@@aurtosebaelheim5942 There is this fantasy of the party working together to fell a single massive monster that I think D&D/Pathfinder just really don't do very well... which is a problem: People want to fight the dragon, Not the dragon, six kobolds and a human cultist wizard. I completely agree that smart encounter design makes legendary resistance less necessary, but sometimes we just want the dramatic boss fight. Dragons, Beholders, The Tarrasque... I mean if the cult leader throws himself into the sacrifical pit to summon a demon prince I think it'd be pretty anticlimactic for the wizard to just cast Banishment. These are the times where I think Legendary Resistance is appropriate.
Burning through Legendary Resistances is why people think Monks are OP. Flurry/Stun/Stun/Stun, a lucky monk could burn off all those LRs in one turn. Statistically unlikely, sure, but the monk can force so many saves per turn (if they’re willing to burn their ki… A proviso/drawback that’s been repeatedly addressed on this channel) that the balance of probabilities start to kick in. And if there’s one condition that the BBEG Dragon doesn’t want, it’s Stunned, so you bet they’re burning LRs to stave that off.
Great video. Based upon my experiences, this one is widely needed. It seems obvious, but we've all seen (and probably been) that guy who tries to "burn through" Legendary Resistances.
These are the same steps I use to get around legendary resistance, but I feel thats the problem. The game is more playing me than Im playing the game. Its like going to an ice cream shop with 31 flavors but a kid with you is lactos intolerant so you have to get sherbert, and even though I love sherbert it just makes one wonder what is even the point of these other flavors.
But that's how the game has variety, because so many save-or-suck spells are so much more powerful than anything else. I mean at least a third of them can just end the encounter then and there if you're fighting a single enemy. At which point what was the point of going to the ice cream shop? IMO the issue is much more how DMs design and run combat. I've been DMing for 1.5 years now continuously on a West Marches server, and I've finally figured out how to design a good combat encounter that is satisfying and enjoyable to both casters and martials. A single BBEG is not a good combat encounter, nor is a single BBEG with a bunch of minions, but this is counter intuitive because all the TV shows and books and legends and stories we so often draw inspiration from all come down to the mano-e-mano heros vs the BBEG - so IME most DMs design combat encounters with one BBEG, or maybe one BBEG and a bunch of minions it's best to just ignore. Good satisfying combat encounters for Tier 2 and higher of 5e NEED to contain at least 3 different types of enemies: 1) Grunts with teeth - these guys should be CR 1-3 (or higher for Tier 3+), they should be simple for the DM to run (1 type of attack and 1 special ability) and have low saving throws BUT deal enough damage that the party can't just ignore them. 2) 1-3 Simple Casters - these should be about the same level as the party, have 2-3 go-to spells, some utility spells to rescue allies hit by control effects, and one "spell like special ability", bonus points if you give each of them a theme. The casters should be of CR equal to party level or 1-2 points below. 3) BBEG - they should "feel" like a Gish with some kind of special movement, melee, and ranged options. Depending on their identity they should lean into a different flavour / style - e.g. a more caster-y gish, a more melee gish, or an archer-y gish. The BBEG should be CR 2-3 points above the party level. Finally include interesting terrain for the encounter. This terrain should offer a way for both villains and heroes to get full cover from some of their enemies but not all of them.
@@agilemind6241 Don't forget to mention there should be less casters than grunts, unless the casters are the grunts, at which point you have far, far less grunts than casters. And while you can add more and more grunts, casters you gotta be careful with since enough casters and you shut down the party.
Great video, but you forgot my favorite category- spell attack debuffs with saving throw riders. There aren't a lot of them, but they're great vs legendary resistance and f you can get advantage somehow (familiar help action etc) or inspiration/bless/etc then they will reliably land. Ray of Enfeeblement is only a 2nd level spell. For most big monsters it cuts their attack damage in HALF (str based attacks). At the end of their turn, they get a CON save to end the effect... perfect. That means you can bypass legendary resistance while ALSO potentially burning their LR. Vs a BBEG i'd be fine burning through 2nd level spells round after round to hit them with this until they use all their LR. Contagion is another spell to look at. If the target can be poisoned, contagion is a pretty devastating debuff that bypasses legendary resistance and lasts for a minimum of 3 rounds with the potential to burn LR. 3 con save fails is a literal death sentence, so while they might not use LR for the first fail, they probably will if they fail again before getting 3 passes.
The very first campaign I played this happened. We were a party of 4 at level 8 I want to say and I was playing a magic-user. Bossfight was on an elevated platform with a flying spellcaster and would take lethal fall damage if it lost the ability to fly, so I start casting Hold Person and it works, so the DM seeing I am about to destroy the boss gives it Legendary Resistance mid-combat. First time I ever heard of LR and was so disappointed. The DM was fine with other comedic failures but had a weird investment in this one guy we are trying to defeat so it felt like I was being singled out and have hated LR ever since.
Legendary Resistance is something that I feel needs to be redesigned. I understand its importance, but unless you're in a caster-heavy group burning through resistances is not a good strat (and even if you're in that situation you could probably be doing something more effective). As a result casters get pigeon-holed into these kinds of strats (which there's nothing wrong with) instead of just casting the spells they want to. I feel like if I were to homebrew a solution off the top of my head, a legendary creature gets 1 legendary resistance against each player. If you as the DM don't want your extraplanar BBEG to get cheesed by Banishment, give them a narrative ability or magical object that anchors them to the current plane and makes those kinds of spells ineffective. For example, the entire demiplane of Barovia in Curse of Strahd prevents spells like Banishment or Planeshift from working because no one is allowed to leave as long as Strahd is alive.
I mean that's kinda A point of it no ? It's pretty anticlimatic if you turn Lich into sheep due to game mechanics allowing some spellcasters to break the game with immposible saving throws. If your dm is good, he will allow spells like bane or whatever not gamebreaking to hit despite legendary resistence. Rule was made to create saveproof in rulebooks instead of dm needing to make excuses. It's perfectly fine as it is right now due to written rule - creature can choose, and 3 chances are ok number if players rly want to role Play that way.
Rune knight's storm rune appears to give you advantage on Intelligence (Arcana) checks, and the telekinesis spell allows you to make a contested Spellcasting ability (int for wizards) check against the target's strength check. I think the strategy you discussed using your Rune Knight friend for advantage, while very cool and reasonable in the course of battle at a table, may not be strictly RAW. Still a worthwhile contribution to a video about dodging saving throws, though, not to mention that one could still achieve this outcome if a friendly caster is willing to use Enhance Ability - Fox's Cunning for the strategy. Enjoying the content as always!
Read the second paragraph of Storm Rune. When you invoke the Rune you can give any Attack, Save, or Check in 60ft Advantage or Disadvantage as a reaction for 1 minute. It's super powerful.
I also wonder why Rak just sat there and took it. Why not ready an action to dispel on the mage when he peeks around the corner? Or use his shapechange ability to turn into a humanoid with a teleport spell, or a Globe of Invulnerability (arguably, RAW, Rak would gain the spellcasting ability of Halaster, if he chose to change shape into Halaster).
I guess one kind of noteworthy spell that wasn't mentioned is Contagion, which is one of the few spells that has saving throws, but you need to succeed 3 of them to actually get rid of the effect.
I literally never use save or suck spells against any creature that might even have a hint of a legendary resistance. Maybe other people have combats where they can afford a couple dead turns in a combat, I do not. So from a player perspective, I see legendary resistances as nothing but a bad thing in 5E in their current form, because It artificially forces players to play their characters in a way they don't want to, pick only specific spells that aren't effected by legendary resistances. In equivalent, you are basically telling fighters that they can't use the good weapons they found or you gave them as a DM in all/every one of their big combats. Or clerics that they can't heal or cure afflictions. And that is just plain un-fun.
Great timing on this video! This past weekend my group played a game where my level 6 sorcerer tried to catch a big boss with legendary resistance in a hypnotic pattern. After we found out it had legendary resistance, I twinned Haste on the other party members and we eventually defeated the beast. I can rest easy knowing Treantmonk would have approved. I learned, after the end of the session, the monster was homebrewed to have only 1 legendary resistance per day. Feels bad, man. I bet Removed 2 doesn't have to deal with stuff like this...
And this is why I love heat metal. Damage dealing and debuffing, no save, turn after turn, my forge cleric loves it, doesn't work on big creatures but still a firm favorite.
Legendary Resistances exist to be milked. It's just a boss tax. IMHO mini boss resistances and attacks should be more common. If toned down from the major ones, perhaps call them epic reactions and resistances.
This is why you need a monk to demand Con save vs. stun every round. When your opponent gets tired of the monk's constant stun attempts, then your mage can blow him up.
Every round? Heck, use it on every attack. At 5th level, is a monk is willing to spend the 5 Ki necessary, it can force 4 Con saves on one target (assuming all 4 attacks hit) in the same round. And if the opponent chooses to let any of those stuns through it is as good as dead. I mean sure, most BBEGs have good Con saves, so it probably isn't going to fail all 4 saves, but even getting rid of 1 or 2 of its LRs is a huge boon to the Spellcasters.
Question that came to mind: is it metagaming to playing around Legendary Resistance like this? The characters in-universe don't know what this TTRPG mechanic is, and they don't know what are saving throws or AC. Is this just something the DM should account for and include in his worldbuilding?
@@Sulicius You can justify it in character. I imagine in every wizard's academy and abbey they tell young potential spellcasters of creatures that are beyond mortal magic, that magic simply does not harm them. (And I mean, how many mages have tried enough to break through all three legendary resistances and lived?) While the people in the universe can't explain it, they are playing by D&D rules, so the implications of these rules are known to them. Changing your behavior to adapt to the rules of the game is not metagaming.
@@kevingriffith6011 sure, and your DM will be very happy you chose to bullshit your way out of it. You are not looking for a way to roleplay your character, you are looking for a way to use out of game knowledge to optimize your character's choices. Wouldn't that just make a wizard quit that school and pick up a sword if magic is useless against such monsters? Legendary Resistance are not a perfect solution, I agree, but if you ruin your DM's fun on purpose, you're forgetting they are a player too. If you want a "justification war", the DM wins, because that's what the rulebooks told them is their right. Just have fun with the game. Play dynamic, focus on the feeling and the social part, experiment with tactics.
@@Sulicius "Wouldn't that make a wizard quit that school and pick up a sword" Has the practice of wrestling died out because we don't stand a chance in a wrestling match with a gorilla? The definition of what is and isn't metagaming is going to change from table to table. I get that. As a GM I tend to subscribe to the same way of thinking about it as Matt Colville (he did a good video on it)... I'm not going to penalize my players for not wanting to waste turns doing things they already know aren't going to work. "Figure out legendary resistance" isn't the test, "Defeat the dragon" is. I'll absolutely call out "your character doesn't know that" if... say... a PC attacks someone out of nowhere because another PC in a different room learned that random someone was actually a doppelganger. That being said, I get where you're coming from. It can be frustrating when you want an RP focused game and your players came looking for Warhammer Quest. In the rare times I get to play (life of a forever DM and all that) I tend to mess around more than I should because I actually *do* have metagame knowledge that I don't want to leverage. It really depends on your table. Some tables you can get away with doing that, where others wasting even a single action could mean the death of one or more PCs.
@@kevingriffith6011 I literally tell my Chronurgy Wizard when a monster has legendary resistance so I don’t break his heart every boss fight. I want there to be a better way, I don’t want to watch my players roll dice and don’t allow my dragon to roll dice. Don’t wr all want drama? Don’t we all want edge-of-your-seat excitement? Optimizers are not looking for that. They want to, as Matt described it: solve D&D. They don’t want to defeat the dragon, they don’t care about it being a dragon. They just want themselves to be effective with every turn and make THE difference in every fight. As a DM I waste my monster’s turns ALL THE TIME. Because that is what makes it fun to the players. Last Wednesday a monster tried to fear the 19th level Conquest Paladin who has been immune to fear for over 10 levels. That is how the game is supposed to work. Your PC learns from experience, sure. They might learn that dragons are resilient to magic. They pc’s never learn how magic resistance works, because they never learn the word “hit points”. A group of PC’s is incredibly tough, and a tactical party can survive far more than any WotC combat building rules advise. Players want to win a combat in 1 turn, a DM should never.
I love when you talk about your own experiences and what worked like that story about the Rak Tulkesh. I love it when you talk about tactics like that in general. Although a strategy like that would probably be hard to pull off at my table because i'd have a hard time convincing my "frontline" rune knight fighter to stay in the back and buff me and let the range characters do all the damage. Also Why didn't the Rak Tulkesh hold his action or something for when you're characters came around to take pop shots at him. He would have still been rolled but it would have helped him.
i kind of think of legendary resistances as a second health bar against instant kill or disabling effects more than anything- i feel that more creatures should have them (not 3 but like, just 1 or so on smaller things). but that also means having a slightly more balanced creature design which honestly... is a lot to ask from wotc
I'd like to see legendary resistance in a more gradient form. Failed rolls can be turned into successes by the boss, but instead of expending 1 resistance, they whittle away at a secondary HP-like pool by an amount equal to the difference between the roll and the DC. The bigger the bad, the larger the pool. It's one more thing for the DM to keep track of, but that's not a huge obstacle.
Sounds like Pathfinder 2e with Incapacitate and it also removed save or die spells too by having 4 stages of success with Critical Success and Critical Fail on saves.
Thats why I like legendary resistance. I HATE magic resistance being on top of that though, just increase their save DC by 3 and remove magic resistance.
Nowadays I reduce the number of Legendary resistences of monsters down to 1. That's one oppertunity it has to prevent something that would otherwise take it out in an anticlimactic way. Afterwards everything is fair game. Most of my players do not play optimised characters, or do not play their characters in an optimised way.
Rak Tulkhesh should be able to target itself with Dispel Magic to dispel the effect of Telekinesis. Rak Tulkhesh is the target of the Telekinesis spell (it has a 60ft range, not a range of self). Sorry if someone already brought this up. I didn't see it in any of the first 50 or so comments. Overall though, I absolutely agree with the point of this video. I've been telling people this for ages.
We discussed whether dispel on himself would end the effect. The DM decided that the telekinesis comes from the caster...but could have ruled the other way just as easily.
@@TreantmonksTemple I was wondering the same thing. I could go either way on that, myself. On the one hand, the spell reads like it gives the caster telekinetic powers (and the caster is the target). On the other, those powers are "magic affecting a target". Also, on the one hand, it says you have to see the target to affect it, but it's not clear if you have to keep it in view at all. It's possible you might not have to even pop out every round to maintain the contest. (I could go either way on that point too). Although if you _do_ need to pop into view on your turn to renew the spell, Rak would have been better off readying Dispel Magic to cast at you, since he could do little else. Alternatively, he could have Shape-Changed into a Spirit Troll (a giant), which is immune to Restrained. That would have helped forestall the inevitable a little. Maybe make the fight slightly more interesting. Alternatives include a Cloud Giant or Githyanki Gish (misty step 3/day from innate spells). Githyanki Enlightened (teleport and plane shift 1/day innate). etc
How to beat legendary resistance: 1. Cast conjure animals [bonus points if Shepard] 2. Wall of force [if it doesn't teleport] 3. Bless 4. Pass without trace 5. Basically any good ally buff class/sub-class feature [Aura of protection, Emboldening Bond, Bardic Inpsiraiton] 6. Spike Growth [if it doesn't fly or teleport]
@@Lycaon1765 Pass without Trace basically gives everyone in your party the ability to almost always surprise an enemy as long as there are places to hide (so like a dungeon or forest or smth). No save or anything cause its vs passive perception, so everyone gets a free turn!
There is one problem. Intelligent enemies will not use LR when targeted with low-level spells BTW No Sickening Radiance? One of the most powerful spells if you can consistently keep a creature in AoE
I hate legendary resistance so much. It basically negates an entire play style from the game and every way to get around it also reduces your effectiveness. And most ways to get around it are situational or only available to one class. I understand the need for it, and any replacement would add a lot of complication, but still, it’s stupid.
It seems like most of the more powerful options to overcome legendary resistances come at spell levels 4 and up (with some exceptions). As a DM if you wanted to reduce the dominance of control based casters, would you introduce some enemies with a single legendary resistance between party levels 3 and 6?
Introducing legendary resistance before the level 9 mark is not good in my opinion. There are plenty of ways to get around early control spells. Hold person? Add more people. Slow? Have them surrounded so it can’t target but a few. If you’re really having trouble include spellcasters with counterspell or dispel magic (not too many, enough that the party can play around, but is forced to think a lot more). Countering in other ways will always be more enjoyable that your first spell just not working.
also due to lower proficiency and unmaxed stats, DC's are pretty low and slots are limited at that level, so it kinda sucks when one of your few successes get bypassed.
A single party member should not try to solo burn through legendary resistances--that's 3 turns doing nothing. But as a group effort, especially if the group has a member with low value resources that are still threatening enough to spend legendary resistances on, it can be reasonable. If you happen to face an enemy with a low enough CON saving throw, a monk can reasonably burn through legendary resistances with stunning strike. That's not going to be every enemy--a lot of top end enemies have astronomical CON saves. Don't try this against an ancient red dragon, they'll just make all their CON saves anyway. But against an enemy with low enough CON saves (usually any enemy that is medium or smaller won't be above +10) expending typically low-value monk resources to enable the wizard/bard/sorcerer in the party is an ok plan. I mean, you could ask why you had a monk in the party in the first place, but if you do, and you face the right kind of enemy with a low enough CON save, using the monk to enable the spellcasters is not a bad way to make that party work together.
This was my first thought, but it requires a caster-heavy party working together. The question is whether you can burn through legendary resistances faster than you can burn through its HP. But most parties can't compel all the legendary resistances faster than they can burn through its HP. (And don't even bring up con saves.)
Hmm. So you're saying that instead of focusing on a single aspect of combat, we should make well-rounded casters, who can buff allies, debuff enemies, shape the battlefield, and maybe do some damage? Where have I heard this before? Kind of reminds me of a God Wizard build I read about this one time.
Great vid! I was just thinking about this since our party fought Strahd in CoS a few weeks ago. Also, didnt know you were Canadian!! Huzzah to fellow Canadians 🙌
As a yes-ander I hate legendary resistance. I hate what it does to my roleplay. I do something, and the creature just says "Yes, but actually no" as opposed to responding. I have a bad experience with a Lich in my first campaign as a bard. I didn't know what legendary resistance was, and my bard was focused on debuffs. It just felt like everytime i did something, the DM just said "no". Not to mention it had counterspelll. All of the problem solving of Debuff builds goes out the window, I just sat there spaming Vicious Mockery and that's it. I would have preferred a stronger version that reflected it back and then I could roleplay getting hit. I feel like monsters need something more elegant than legendary resistance to make things feel interactive.
While I don't like 4e, I like how they made their Legendary Resistance equivalent cost a percent of the monster's max HP to use instead of being a "X per Day" thing since it solved the problem Legendary Resistance was trying to solve (save-or-suck ending fights too fast) without making save reliant casters useless. I especially like this solution because my group likes Bards a lot and they have VERY limited options against LR
Na. Legendary resistance is a necessity for game balance. The monster isn't saying no the monster is resisting the effect by sheer power of their will and each time exhausts then basically. You should have a backup plan that doesn't involve cheesing the enemy with debuffs. as a bard you can easily audible over to buffing your party who won't resist your spells. Stay at least 60ft away from caster enemies to avoid counterspell or jump behind a rock so they can't see you when you cast your buff spell.
@@justinstreet1254 I understand there is counterplay now, but as a new player, it felt bad. It seemed like the enemy could just walk by, and I could be yelling, casting spells, or doing whatever, and it's like I'm not even there. If it reflected it back at me, or caused it to summon a skeleton (which would be a buff), at least it did something. If I cast Hideous Laughter, now I get to roleplay laughing my butt off at the monster, as opposed to just being ignored. That's my big gripe with it. It's not that I'm not doing anything, it's that I feel like the monster just sort of ignores me. and with a spellcaster that only changes their spellls on level up, it's not like I could go back and prepare different spells. And trust me, I've learned my lesson. I now prepare buff spells more over debuff spells and have researched how counterspell works, but for somebody who was new to the game, it didn't feel interactive or fun at all. I would have preferred something stronger if it was more interactive.
@@TheKilogram1000 that’s just part of the any game. If you are a melee character flying characters nerf you. If you a rangers chatater then characters getting in your face nerf you. If you are caster then caster enemies nerf you. It’s just part of the game. A good gm should have a session after where the player feels useful
If I'm playing with a party that relies on saving throws for their effects I sometimes drop a contagion on the boss on an early turn. It's threatening enough to use LR on and it requires multiple saving throws to actually shake, all the while it is suffering from poisoned which helps my allies survive.
I'm surprised neither you nor anyone in the comments mentioned Maze (or maybe you did, but I honest to god did not hear it). A high intelligence check that requires an action, or the boss has to use a spell that shifts them out of the plane, but doesn't even guarantee they'll return to the same place probably. Meanwhile you dispatch of the minions and then gang up on the bbeg. Maze is awesome.
@@TreantmonksTemple okay, thank you! Well, I'll just leave the comment up, in case anyone hasn't stumbled upon Maze yet. Thanks again, and keep up the amazing work!
The party movement that you mentioned previously is incredibly helpful. In my limited experience playing an abjuration wizard from 1-20 (only 17th-20 was 5th edition). Scatter along with Crown of Stars and others you mentioned helped allow me to aid allies and still help bring the BBEG's hit points to zero.
I think there may be an effective way to burn through legendary resistances quickly, but it's not a spell caster option: battlemaster. If they unload all of their battlemaster dice on a single round (multiple attacks, action surge) they can force a creature to make a save several times in a single turn. Menacing attack is a pretty debilitating option for a lot of creatures if a they aren't immune to fear, and trip attack is great for flying enemies. It might not be the most optimal approach out there, but I think if you want to burn them all on a single turn/round of combat this is the way to do it. There's also a possible monk/battlemaster multiclass which stacks stunning strike with this approach to overwhelm the monster with saving throws. Again, maybe not optimal, but a better approach than using spell casting.
The Monk doesn't even need to multi-class. Starting at 5th level a Monk can force 4 Con saves against a single target in 1 round, assuming all 4 of their attacks hit. (Does burn 5 of their Ki points though.)
@@johncox7169 a multiclass works better. For 3 fighter levels you get 2 additional attacks from action surge and 4 superiority die which can target better saving throws (strength or wisdom) which can complement the monks con saving throws. 4 battlemaster die for three levels is arguably better than gaining 3 ki for three monk levels besides the other benefits. Could even be 5 if you use superior technique. However I think going Open Hand Monk would be a solid option as flurry of blows can add another two saving throws to the mix.
@@agilemind6241 yep! I made this point on an earlier reply. I think a way to push it further is with three levels of dread ambusher for the initiative bonus (hit the enemy before your allies) and get the extra two attacks with action surge. Now it's starting to look like a full build!
Melf’s Minute Meteor is another great choice. You force two saves per turn as a bonus action and still can cast normally with an action! Also glad to see Rune Knight get love! I’ve always seen it’s potential but it’s often overlooked. I actually gave my DM a rune knight character to use as a villain because I didn’t end up playing my Viking Goliath
My sorlock recently got Agonizing Blast, so for the cost of 2 sorcery points i can hit it twice. Thanks to Charisma of 22, plus an item that increases damage rolls by +1, my bolts deal 1d10+7 per bolt. I could be dealing 70 damage in a turn from it since I'm level 11. I also have Greater Invisibility and Storm Sphere to either have advantage on those eldritch blasts rolls or repeated lightning strikes with my bonus action each turn.
Legendary resistance - the DM revenge for the shield spell. The problem is many spells are an "I win" button, so if there wasn't legendary resistance by boss fights would be over in an anti-climatic instant. I like giving mid-range bosses a single use of legendary resistance.
Do you think you could make a build for each and every class that can reliably get it's best features back on a short rest, and/or is able to survive without long resting (but not sleeping) for a long time? A simplified example for a wizard would be an abjurerur and their ability to rebuild their ward with ritual casting alarm. Bonus points for not multiclassing
Artificer - Battlesmith Barbarian - you're stuck, everything is tied to rage and rage is LR Bard - Swords Bard or Valor Bard, throw up single concentration spell then go for weapon attacks - preferably bows Cleric - Arcana get some decent cantrips to spam plus a long-lasting CD, or Nature for Thorn Whip + Spirit Guardians, or Twilight b/c CD is all you ever need to be as powerful as most other characters. Druid - Moon and go Wildshape-martial or Shepherd and max your concentration to keep summons around as long as possible. Fighter - Battlemaster - everything comes back on a SR Monk - any everything comes back on a SR Paladin - Conquest use that fear aura CD then pick them off one by one with standard melee attacks Ranger - Hunter - most of your features are unlimited Rogue - any except Phantom/Tickster all of their features are always on. (Swashbuckler is the best) Sorcerer - Wild Magic - get can get a lot of stuff back from Wild Magic Surges from Tides of Chaos to sorcery points Warlock - any focus on EB and concentration spells Wizard - Enchantment - they get good non-spell abilities that don't run out.
@@TreantmonksTemple I think it would probably come down to Feats like Healer, Inspiring leader, and may even require some feats like the Abberant Dragonmark feat. That way you at least feel like you're actively contributing every time you short rest. The other half of it would probably be using races that have abilities that recharge on a short rest, like the pre Monsters of the Multiverse version of the Firbolg
Even if someone wants to do the whittling away at LRs tactic that's something you can't just do by yourself, strategize with your party so you don't burn your big spell slots just to break through an enemy's resistance.
Storm Rune: Using this rune, you can glimpse the future like a storm giant seer. While wearing or carrying an object inscribed with this rune, you have advantage on Intelligence (Arcana) checks, and you can't be surprised as long as you aren't incapacitated. Telekinesis: ... Make an ability check with your spellcasting ability contested by the creature's Strength check. ... I don't think these should combo. right?
Oh, and for Legendary Resistances: instead of the usual 3 resistances, I prefer just giving the monster a Reaction to use a legendary resistance for free, as long as it is not "bloodied". After they are down to 1/2 HP, they are fair game for a save or suck.
You mentioned there's a lot of spells that can get round legendary resistance, more than you could mention in one video. Any chance you'd be up for publishing a list of these per class?
The example of Rak Tulkesh doesn't seem to make any sense. If it can cast dispel magic - why wouldn't it simply cast dispel magic on itself to remove the effect of telekinesis? Dispel magic isn't used against the caster of the spell, it's used against the creature affected by the spell. It didn't need to peak around the corner to dispel it on you, it would have just dispelled it on itself. The combo with a bard or rune knight in the party, while handy, does not let you walk over enemies like you've described, unless you're ignoring RAW as you seem to suggest happened in that example.
My group was fighting a dragon in our last session. After watching this session, I decided that buffing my ally with Haste and using every spell slot I had to ping the dragon with 3rd and 2nd level Magic Missiles was best, since by the time I would have burned through its legendary resistances, the fight would have been over. We barely scraped by! But the extra guaranteed damage I could throw in definitely helped our party win.
Its true I think legendary resistance just requires chip damage to overcome. It is less fun when you cant used your cool ultra mega omega laser beam attack... but it is also less cool when the miniboss just gets one shot on turn one with nobody else getting a chance to do anything. As a side note, couldnt the Rak Tulekhesh still dispel magic your telekinesis from around the corner? You dont need sight on the target creature to dispel and telekinesis is a 60ft range compared to 120ft dispel. Something to remember.
Spot on! Just got to think of LR as something to burn first. A lot of spells have repeated saving throws and unless your DM really hates you they will always use them on fails, so you can burn them with things like Web
Legendary resistances essentially just shutting down a large swath of spells has always bothered me, but I also understand that the big boss monster just getting hard CC'd turn 1 and then beat to death is also deeply unsatisfying. A pie in the sky solution to me is for legendary resistance not to negate the spell, but downgrade it to a lesser effect. Hold Monster, if subject to legendary resistance, would restrain instead of paralyze. But there are so many spells (and non spell effects that cause saves) that having a way for all of them to downgrade when subject to legendary resistance would be a lot of extra work and balancing. Another idea is that legendary resistance, when used on a spell with a duration instead of an instantaneous effect, is to reduce the duration of the spell's duration to 1 round no matter what. Potentially, this version wouldn't even have limited uses per day. You can hold monster, but it will never last more than one round. Of course, most boss monster encounters still often only last a few rounds, so this version may be in effect not all that different than not having legendary resistance at all, if by the time the boss has recovered from your automatically successful hold monster's through portent they are at 20% hp or dead. Another possibility is some kind of consolation prize that is gained when legendary resistance is used, regardless of what it was used on. For example, maybe using a legendary resistance would prevent a monster from regaining legendary actions on the next turn. It would have to be determined on a per monster basis though, since some monsters may have legendary resistance without legendary actions.
have you ever played or heard about the video game divinity original sin ? It's a video game, a crpg. But it had an interesting system. On top of the normal hit points creatures have something called physical armor and magical armor. They act as secountary hp pools to be depleted by actual hp. Physical damage like being hit by a sword deplete physical armor while spells like lighting bolt deplete magical armor. And the main and est part is, all the very nasty spells, the CC, have no effect unless they it ann enemy with it's physical/magical armor stripped (depends on the effect in general physical effect like being trapped in a web demands physical armor stripped, while magical effects like being frozen or paralysed demands magical armor stripped). I'm sure it is possible to make a system like that. Like all legendary monsters have a secondary pool of magic resistance points and all spells deals a certain amount of damage to this magic resistance. And saving against the spell halves the effect. the creature can choose to et a spell pass hoping he will save . In fact some monsters may have weaknesses to this resistance, spell that can go through or do extra damage to it, like a vampire being weak against light based spells
While I agree with this video, I think as a sorc quickening tashas hideous laughter and then throwing out a damage cantrip is just as effective, it is only a level one slot and leaves the DM in a bad place, does he use his LR or get knocked prone and incapacitated, and I still do damage if that is the thing I want to do, then when I fell it is safe and want to use the big spell combos I can feel safe doing so. Yes there are spells that avoid that resistance, but not playing with some of the best spells because LR exists seems like playing with one hand behind your back. Still great ways to do damage and utility without those spells, but when the fight really matters you want to have your big hitters.
Telekinesis and Bigby's hand might be the best spells in the game for fighting huge or smaller creatures with legendary actions. There is a surprising number of creatures who aren't immune to restrained condition.
I think the narration of this resistance is what’s lacking. To give it more kick just make a resistance permanent vs the magic it repels. Now you gotta have four different aces to overcome three resistances. Casting the same spell over and over won’t work.
At 13:00 you speak about using Telekinesis to wreck an enemy whilst not allowing to use legendary resistances. The Warlock's Hex spell allows you to give them disadvantage on ability checks. So if you have a Warlock in the party and this might come up as a tactic, let them know so you can make this work.
As a side note, I happen to like playing monks and often they can really help by spamming stuns which force the enemy to expend legendary saves. I know this isn't the point of the video but it also bears mention that the first tactic you mentioned although suboptimal becomes better when non-spellcasters get in on the action to assist in clearing the way for the full spellcasters. It's not a great tactic but as a team game too often the party doesn't work as a team and this is the real cause of issues.
Don't expect Treantmonk to understand that multiple characters can force a monster into saving throws or that monks have something strong about them. It's all about the one wizard.
@@Sulicius To the contrary he understands fully but the video can't make all the assumptions that your group will be built in this way. He is putting out information based on the things he can account for and control. Party makeup is rarely in the control of a single player. Still it's a useful thought to put out there if one digs deeper than the video and starts reading the comments.
One teleport that works for wall of ice or wall of stone is teleport to a space *above* the other side of the wall. Sure you'll take some paltry fall damage, but meh
You assume the caster is at full by the time they get to this foe. Its usually late in the adventuring day and casters have held there big hitters for the foe. The best option is to use the heavy hitters early and use these type of spells for the BBEG.
Thinking about that Telekinesis/Spike Growth combo. If a party member has Hex, that could be devastating. Target Strength and now the enemy has disadvantage on the checks. And if they burn a Legendary Resistance it's not the end of the world, and potentially not very expensive if it was a 1-2 level Warlock dip. Congratulations, you've used a LR on a 1st level spell. :D
I think this points to an underlying issue with 5e encounter design. The fights don't go long enough for burning through 3 Legendary Resistances to be a viable tactic.
@@travisdunlap4526 I protest from my experience as a full caster, I find the cat and mouse game fun. Use spells powerful enough to trigger the resistance but not too powerful. All three down? Blast the stroggest spell!
@@CharalamposKoundourakis My last campaign had a notable caster, and I could definately see the deflation on their face whenever their big spells were taken out by legendary resistance. I think the other issue is it depends on party composition. In a caster heavy party, you could have 3 casters all throw down one spell, each player loses 1 round and 1 spell...not too bad. Conversely a party with a single caster who has to spend 3 rounds and 3 spells....feels a lot more of the burden.
As an experienced DM: bosses cannot concentrate on spells. They take so much damage in so many instances that they lose concentration on a spell usually before their next turn (unless it's using Greater Invisibility and has Legendary Resistance). A monster would have to use its action, concentration AND its reaction to do this, which means it does nothing else of note. There's 3 other party members, they will be ignored and beat the snot out of the monster.
More importantly, since Telekenisis targets the creature, and not "Self", the creature could have just used Dispel Magic on itself to get rid of the effect.
I have a great sword that petrifiesp things if they fail a save but with legendary resistance it won't work. So it does a good amount of damage on its own
In some ways 5.0 feels like a big 'fxk off' to the player. Legendary resistance, no magic item economy, attunement, the nerf to buffs...oh and concentration
blanket magic saving throw advantage for some creature types, tons of resistance/immunities but little vulnerability. and ya, concentration, so easy to drop and such a limiting factor.
Hey, hey! Spirit Guardians! The spell I actually stopped using because it felt like I was cheating every time I used it. Except in that bar, against those thugs. I'm glad my phantom dead, intangible skeletons dangling rotten death shrouds, wailing the symphony written by the sins of those they faced, killed all of them.
Also the examples are all concentration spells, so baddie with legendary resistances and Bob, the guy who's pretty ok at his bow, can still wreck these plans.
IMO it’s just a game balance issue. CC was made too powerful and therefore needed to be nerfed at higher levels when you have access to so many spells. Wotc didn’t have to add autocrits on paralysis or make slow as busted as it is. But they did and so it had to be stopped. It’s in a similar vein to a big problem in the video game Divinity 2 original sin. Basically, the best strategy was to get the enemies armor down and stun lock them until you win. It made the game unfun for some people, and so many mods changed it by simply making those stunning status effects simply have bad debuffs instead of an actual full stun.
Yep, crowd control was a problem in that they made it overpowered, and while Slow is already a problem spell, it at least could be healthy if it was nerfed, whereas control spells like Hypnotic Pattern or Banishment are basically able to take away entire actions, which is not fun for the DM.
misty step/far step have a range of self with a sight requisite and Wall of Force is invisible, so no line of effect issues. Dimension door reads like it ignores cover and only requires you visualize the coordinates you want. A spell like blink or etherealness would be blocked due to blocking ethereal travel.
Legendary resistance, but ESPECAILLY magic resistance, is why I make all my bards Eliquence now. A sometimes +12 to your save DC means even on a nat 20 boss monsters sometimes can't make that save with their magic resistance and are forced to use their legendary resistance. I burn through all 3 of those, combat over. I like legendary resistance since its a secondary resource to burn through to get a win vs a boss, I HATE magic resistance because it just feels like BS when its on top of legendary resistance if you don't have something to make it a non issue. But you have the issue of there only being 3-4 rounds in a combat sometimes.
There's almost a change in philosophy that spellcasters might want to consider as they gain levels. Better to use your slots on spells that end up doing nothing - or - ones you know will. Spend your slots disabling your foes or boosting yourself and your allies?
Good tactical vid. Thanks for the info. 👍 As an aside Chris, I noticed that you have a Battle Smith guide (for the Artificer), but I didnt see one for the Armorer. I also vaguely remember you mentioning its relatively low power level compared to the Battle Smith. I wonder: Provided that there's a way to build an Armorer Artificer optimally over 20 levels, have you considered doing a vid on that? Personally I'm thinking either a dip into Rogue for Arcane Trickster, or into Fighter for Eldritch Knight for this one; the Wizard (either War Magic, Chronoturgy, or Divination) seem like an obvious go-to, but such a dip wouldn't be for more than 2 levels in those cases, and I'm thinking there may be a better way to pull it off, both in terms of damage output, and in terms of combat effectiveness. Thanks again.
Great video, as always. Ever since 5e came out, I have ruled that monsters use LR to burn their first three failures, regardless of the spell level. Yes, this does mean I’ve have dragons burn a LR to succeed against Sacred Flame. The way I see it, a monster isn’t consciously aware of LR in the same way PCs are consciously aware of hit points, feats, and class features. So they can’t “choose” when to succeed and when to fail.
I really enjoy sticking a warlock’s hex on a target before an ability score-centric tactic like telekinesis or a grapple goes off. Hex doesn’t have to be useless at high levels! If it makes another character do what they do better, it’s worth more than that extra d6 per hit.
People don't understand just how valuable that disadvantage is.
hex doesn't work on saving throws, only ability checks.
Telekentic: the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward or away from you. A creature can willingly fail this save.
hex: The target has disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
bestow curse: While Cursed, the target has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Saving Throws made with that ability score.
So whilst it doesn't work with telekentic, it does work with a normal grapple as that uses an ability check
@@asdfniofanuiafabuiohui3977 this does work with the telekinesis spell, as described in the video, but you’re right that the feat would not benefit
Why in the shit does it say your comment is from 3 weeks ago
@@ominous5409 patreon early release
Good examples of useful spells to use even with legendary resistance!
That said, I find that it does matter a *lot* on the DM/party. Some DMs use legendary resistances very early on, against even small instances (like using it against spirit guardians/cantrips) - where a few spellcasters can spam out the legendary resistances with a few small spells early on. Alternatively, with a bunch of spellcasters in a party (and with decent amounts of rests), it can be comparatively easy! 2-3 spellcasters using Tasha's mind whip can fairly quickly burn through legendary resistances in 1-2 rounds.
It really depends on the game master. In major "boss monster" encounters where there is only one or possibly two targets I"ll tend to apply legendary resistances: This is a big moment, I don't need it to land with a thud because my boss monster failed a con save against quivering palm on their first turn. That being said, I'm very particular about the kinds of effects that I burn legendary resistance on. I'll let spells like Polymorph and Banishment rock: These spells are only moving the fight forward in time (Even if the creature is extraplanar, it'll find it's way back and it'll have a grudge)... but spells like Hold Monster that give the PCs potentially multiple free turns to wail on this thing with free crits can do far more damage. I'm more worried about Stunning Strike than Mind Whip.
While personally I would rather have multiple minions in play alongside the boss monster, I also understand the game is Dungeons and Dragons. Not Dungeons, Dragons, and the assorted lackies that the dragon has amassed to make the encounter more interesting. There is a fantasy of the one party of brave adventurers against a singular, powerful monster that is attractive, and that's what legendary resistance is around to preserve. (Also you need a *really* big bad guy to make 1v4 a challenge in D&D 5e)
about the ice "I'm from Canada, don't @ me!"
My first mention in a Treantmonk video. Thank you, sir, for this video.
You're welcome. I hope it met your request.
@@TreantmonksTemple exactly what I was looking for.
magic resistance and legendary resistance are the reasons why i don't like relying on save or suck spells on my builds, especially from late tier 2 onwards. i prefer core tactics are either skill check spells (telekinesis/bigby's hand), spell attacks (scorching ray, inflict wounds), no save spells (magic missile, wall of force) or sustainable spells that do something on a successful save (call lightning, spirit guardians). this way i never have to waste my action and resources trying to power through magic resistance and just eventually waste my turn to get hard shutdown by legendary resistance. i'm always do something effective while totally avoiding this mechanic.
Even at low levels, I mostly avoid single target save-or-suck spells. On every caster, I try to have at least one buff spell too, just in case I don't have a visible target.
Legendary resistance is where your battlemaster and Monk shine. Burn legendary resistance vs trip and menacing attacks and stunning strikes. Battle master feels awesome, spellcaster feels awesome. Go team.
The only times I have intentionally burned through a monster's legendary resistance were the times when killing the monster was not an option. For instance, the time an archdevil hijacked my party's teleportation out of hell into the mortal plane. There is no way we would have survived the battle long enough to drop its hit points to zero. So the two spellcasters on our team spammed Banishment against him until it stuck.
I do wonder what the split is on DM's announcing "the enemy rolls a 21 and saves" vs "the enemy passes the saving throw" vs "the enemy fails the save, but uses a Legendary resistance to succeed." If players *are* going the route of using lesser spells to try to burn Legendaries before using their big spells, that little difference in how it is announced has a big influence on player strategies.
Of course, non-saving throw based strategies like this video covered are generally a more effective strategy. Doesn't mean I haven't seen plenty of parties go for a "burn the Legendaries" strategy.
I play mostly on VTT's now, and I don't hide my dice rolls, so they know right away if a creature I'm running uses LR.
I know it effects strategies at our table. I say they use their legendarys others DMs don't. While they don't necessarily go for a burn their legendarys strategy either way they factor it in and are more willing to use spells as at least know they burned the legendary. High damage save for half spells for example being used, if they use it fine they burn a use, if not hey I did high damage. And for a boss losing over 10% of its HP from a spell might be a good reason to, ignore that too many times and you are out of HP.
When I'm DMing, I always make it clear when a creature uses Legendary Resistance. Having your stuff not work feels bad, so it's important to make it clear to my players that their spell or ability did do something - it forced the enemy to spend a resource. It lets them feel like they're making progress against the enemy, even if they didn't do damage. It also helps them figure out which saves to target - a creature that keeps passing Dex saves naturally should probably not be Fireballed again, but a creature with 10 Dex who has to use Legendary Resistance each time is quite a different story.
I only announce if the creature passed the save or not. I find it discourages this whole attitude of trying to whittle down legendary resistances before trying all their save or suck spells and instead focus on other ways to help the party. Instead of trying to cheapen the boss encounter by polymorphing them, they might instead use wall of fire which save or not will still do something, or they might polymorph another player into a giant ape, all a lot more interesting than wasting resources whittling down LR's just to turn it into a newt by the time the battle was pretty much over anyway.
The group I play with doesn't state that. It's just
Player A: "Duke NecroPants needs a 37 to save against my Hedge of Hedgehogs!"
DM: "Duke NecroPants passes through the Hedge of Hedgehogs, and appears to suffer no damage!"
Player B: "Dang, this guy must have some legendary resistances!"
It feels more like an epic story that way, to me. There are some hints about things ("Duke NecroPants gasps as the fireball engulfs him, and as the smoke and ash clears, you can see his clothing is clearly scorched, and large areas of skin are flaking off like a phone book in a fireplace."), but we avoid technical talk as much as we can.
"Otto irresistible dance", said my bard.
"Ok, what's the save" said the DM.
"No save" I said, "It's not called IRRESISTIBLE because you can resist it"
You can't stop the beat.
@@TreantmonksTemple In party with a fighter, a paladin and a rogue.
That adult red dragon lasted a whole turn.
My personal issue with this topic is that a single spell that shuts down an encounter is generally unfun for everyone, regardless of how optimal if would be
I agree
That's an encounter design issue imo. I'm a Pathfinder GM so the numbers get a bit swingier but the same logic applies - the biggest threat will get shut down the quickest, players aren't idiots, it doesn't matter what you do they're going to go all-in on the most threatening monster and either delete it or nullify it as quickly as possible.
My solutions have been:
- Divide the power budget of the encounter between 2+ big threats. This is the obvious solution, it's harder to disable 2 weaker creatures in 1 turn than it is to shut down a single stronger one. Works better in Pathfinder where moving cuts into your attacks.
- Make sure the minions have scary effects. Will the party nova the Lich when his Wight minions inflict max hp drain and will die a whole lot faster? 5e doesn't have many nasty long-term debuffs like other editions to my knowledge so your mileage may vary here, Wights with level drain tend to attract a lot of fire.
- Dedicated bodyguard minions. Shield Guardian is the obvious one here but a cleric/paladin healbot/buffbot can work too, I'm sure you can work out other options. These creatures can be fairy individually weak so as not to take up too much of the encounter's power budget.
- Compound encounters. This is my personal favourite. Have an encounter that's secretly 2 or more encounters. You start with 1 encounter worth of enemies then as soon as that one stops being a threat the second one busts down the door and joins in, or you put it on a timer so the party knows they need to burn resources to end the first fight quickly or things will escalate to unmanageable levels when the 2nd group joins. This is the best way I've found to get more encounters in per long rest.
I think it sort of depends on the odds. In say highish level 2e where a boss might have magic resistance of 50% and make their saves on a 5, it never came across as boring in my experience. It was rare enough that everyone had a blast due to the how unlikely it was. It was the type of thing people would mention years later rare. Now in 5e where something like bigbys or telekinesis is a auto win against say something like a demi-lich its not that fun. Having bigbys prepared isn't some weird i can't believe that spell worked eureka moment or a particularly clever tactic, its a great spell on its own and its obvious a tiny skull would be weak vs it. That kind of ends up boring. Though the demi-lich is pretty poorly designed for a supposedly CR 18 creature imo.
@@aurtosebaelheim5942 There is this fantasy of the party working together to fell a single massive monster that I think D&D/Pathfinder just really don't do very well... which is a problem: People want to fight the dragon, Not the dragon, six kobolds and a human cultist wizard. I completely agree that smart encounter design makes legendary resistance less necessary, but sometimes we just want the dramatic boss fight. Dragons, Beholders, The Tarrasque... I mean if the cult leader throws himself into the sacrifical pit to summon a demon prince I think it'd be pretty anticlimactic for the wizard to just cast Banishment. These are the times where I think Legendary Resistance is appropriate.
@@TreantmonksTemple I wish more high level spells did something on a save, like Feeblemind. No matter how little it is, it should do something!
Burning through Legendary Resistances is why people think Monks are OP.
Flurry/Stun/Stun/Stun, a lucky monk could burn off all those LRs in one turn. Statistically unlikely, sure, but the monk can force so many saves per turn (if they’re willing to burn their ki… A proviso/drawback that’s been repeatedly addressed on this channel) that the balance of probabilities start to kick in. And if there’s one condition that the BBEG Dragon doesn’t want, it’s Stunned, so you bet they’re burning LRs to stave that off.
Great video. Based upon my experiences, this one is widely needed.
It seems obvious, but we've all seen (and probably been) that guy who tries to "burn through" Legendary Resistances.
These are the same steps I use to get around legendary resistance, but I feel thats the problem. The game is more playing me than Im playing the game. Its like going to an ice cream shop with 31 flavors but a kid with you is lactos intolerant so you have to get sherbert, and even though I love sherbert it just makes one wonder what is even the point of these other flavors.
But that's how the game has variety, because so many save-or-suck spells are so much more powerful than anything else. I mean at least a third of them can just end the encounter then and there if you're fighting a single enemy. At which point what was the point of going to the ice cream shop?
IMO the issue is much more how DMs design and run combat. I've been DMing for 1.5 years now continuously on a West Marches server, and I've finally figured out how to design a good combat encounter that is satisfying and enjoyable to both casters and martials. A single BBEG is not a good combat encounter, nor is a single BBEG with a bunch of minions, but this is counter intuitive because all the TV shows and books and legends and stories we so often draw inspiration from all come down to the mano-e-mano heros vs the BBEG - so IME most DMs design combat encounters with one BBEG, or maybe one BBEG and a bunch of minions it's best to just ignore.
Good satisfying combat encounters for Tier 2 and higher of 5e NEED to contain at least 3 different types of enemies:
1) Grunts with teeth - these guys should be CR 1-3 (or higher for Tier 3+), they should be simple for the DM to run (1 type of attack and 1 special ability) and have low saving throws BUT deal enough damage that the party can't just ignore them.
2) 1-3 Simple Casters - these should be about the same level as the party, have 2-3 go-to spells, some utility spells to rescue allies hit by control effects, and one "spell like special ability", bonus points if you give each of them a theme. The casters should be of CR equal to party level or 1-2 points below.
3) BBEG - they should "feel" like a Gish with some kind of special movement, melee, and ranged options. Depending on their identity they should lean into a different flavour / style - e.g. a more caster-y gish, a more melee gish, or an archer-y gish. The BBEG should be CR 2-3 points above the party level.
Finally include interesting terrain for the encounter. This terrain should offer a way for both villains and heroes to get full cover from some of their enemies but not all of them.
@@agilemind6241 Don't forget to mention there should be less casters than grunts, unless the casters are the grunts, at which point you have far, far less grunts than casters. And while you can add more and more grunts, casters you gotta be careful with since enough casters and you shut down the party.
Great video, but you forgot my favorite category- spell attack debuffs with saving throw riders. There aren't a lot of them, but they're great vs legendary resistance and f you can get advantage somehow (familiar help action etc) or inspiration/bless/etc then they will reliably land.
Ray of Enfeeblement is only a 2nd level spell. For most big monsters it cuts their attack damage in HALF (str based attacks). At the end of their turn, they get a CON save to end the effect... perfect. That means you can bypass legendary resistance while ALSO potentially burning their LR. Vs a BBEG i'd be fine burning through 2nd level spells round after round to hit them with this until they use all their LR.
Contagion is another spell to look at. If the target can be poisoned, contagion is a pretty devastating debuff that bypasses legendary resistance and lasts for a minimum of 3 rounds with the potential to burn LR. 3 con save fails is a literal death sentence, so while they might not use LR for the first fail, they probably will if they fail again before getting 3 passes.
The very first campaign I played this happened. We were a party of 4 at level 8 I want to say and I was playing a magic-user. Bossfight was on an elevated platform with a flying spellcaster and would take lethal fall damage if it lost the ability to fly, so I start casting Hold Person and it works, so the DM seeing I am about to destroy the boss gives it Legendary Resistance mid-combat. First time I ever heard of LR and was so disappointed. The DM was fine with other comedic failures but had a weird investment in this one guy we are trying to defeat so it felt like I was being singled out and have hated LR ever since.
Legendary Resistance is something that I feel needs to be redesigned. I understand its importance, but unless you're in a caster-heavy group burning through resistances is not a good strat (and even if you're in that situation you could probably be doing something more effective). As a result casters get pigeon-holed into these kinds of strats (which there's nothing wrong with) instead of just casting the spells they want to.
I feel like if I were to homebrew a solution off the top of my head, a legendary creature gets 1 legendary resistance against each player.
If you as the DM don't want your extraplanar BBEG to get cheesed by Banishment, give them a narrative ability or magical object that anchors them to the current plane and makes those kinds of spells ineffective. For example, the entire demiplane of Barovia in Curse of Strahd prevents spells like Banishment or Planeshift from working because no one is allowed to leave as long as Strahd is alive.
I mean that's kinda A point of it no ? It's pretty anticlimatic if you turn Lich into sheep due to game mechanics allowing some spellcasters to break the game with immposible saving throws. If your dm is good, he will allow spells like bane or whatever not gamebreaking to hit despite legendary resistence. Rule was made to create saveproof in rulebooks instead of dm needing to make excuses. It's perfectly fine as it is right now due to written rule - creature can choose, and 3 chances are ok number if players rly want to role Play that way.
Rune knight's storm rune appears to give you advantage on Intelligence (Arcana) checks, and the telekinesis spell allows you to make a contested Spellcasting ability (int for wizards) check against the target's strength check. I think the strategy you discussed using your Rune Knight friend for advantage, while very cool and reasonable in the course of battle at a table, may not be strictly RAW. Still a worthwhile contribution to a video about dodging saving throws, though, not to mention that one could still achieve this outcome if a friendly caster is willing to use Enhance Ability - Fox's Cunning for the strategy.
Enjoying the content as always!
And he was quite lucky somewhat in that encounter. Monster has +9 Str, so even with advantage it could get out from Telekinesis
Read the second paragraph of Storm Rune. When you invoke the Rune you can give any Attack, Save, or Check in 60ft Advantage or Disadvantage as a reaction for 1 minute. It's super powerful.
@@blalockj7788 Damn Storm Rune's good. Yup I hadn't considered that far, thank you!
I also wonder why Rak just sat there and took it. Why not ready an action to dispel on the mage when he peeks around the corner? Or use his shapechange ability to turn into a humanoid with a teleport spell, or a Globe of Invulnerability (arguably, RAW, Rak would gain the spellcasting ability of Halaster, if he chose to change shape into Halaster).
I guess one kind of noteworthy spell that wasn't mentioned is Contagion, which is one of the few spells that has saving throws, but you need to succeed 3 of them to actually get rid of the effect.
I literally never use save or suck spells against any creature that might even have a hint of a legendary resistance. Maybe other people have combats where they can afford a couple dead turns in a combat, I do not. So from a player perspective, I see legendary resistances as nothing but a bad thing in 5E in their current form, because It artificially forces players to play their characters in a way they don't want to, pick only specific spells that aren't effected by legendary resistances.
In equivalent, you are basically telling fighters that they can't use the good weapons they found or you gave them as a DM in all/every one of their big combats. Or clerics that they can't heal or cure afflictions. And that is just plain un-fun.
Great timing on this video! This past weekend my group played a game where my level 6 sorcerer tried to catch a big boss with legendary resistance in a hypnotic pattern. After we found out it had legendary resistance, I twinned Haste on the other party members and we eventually defeated the beast. I can rest easy knowing Treantmonk would have approved.
I learned, after the end of the session, the monster was homebrewed to have only 1 legendary resistance per day. Feels bad, man. I bet Removed 2 doesn't have to deal with stuff like this...
I would have!
And this is why I love heat metal. Damage dealing and debuffing, no save, turn after turn, my forge cleric loves it, doesn't work on big creatures but still a firm favorite.
Legendary Resistances exist to be milked. It's just a boss tax.
IMHO mini boss resistances and attacks should be more common. If toned down from the major ones, perhaps call them epic reactions and resistances.
This is why you need a monk to demand Con save vs. stun every round. When your opponent gets tired of the monk's constant stun attempts, then your mage can blow him up.
Every round? Heck, use it on every attack. At 5th level, is a monk is willing to spend the 5 Ki necessary, it can force 4 Con saves on one target (assuming all 4 attacks hit) in the same round. And if the opponent chooses to let any of those stuns through it is as good as dead. I mean sure, most BBEGs have good Con saves, so it probably isn't going to fail all 4 saves, but even getting rid of 1 or 2 of its LRs is a huge boon to the Spellcasters.
Question that came to mind: is it metagaming to playing around Legendary Resistance like this? The characters in-universe don't know what this TTRPG mechanic is, and they don't know what are saving throws or AC. Is this just something the DM should account for and include in his worldbuilding?
It is 100% metagaming. Using out of game knowledge to change the way your character acts.
@@Sulicius You can justify it in character. I imagine in every wizard's academy and abbey they tell young potential spellcasters of creatures that are beyond mortal magic, that magic simply does not harm them. (And I mean, how many mages have tried enough to break through all three legendary resistances and lived?)
While the people in the universe can't explain it, they are playing by D&D rules, so the implications of these rules are known to them. Changing your behavior to adapt to the rules of the game is not metagaming.
@@kevingriffith6011 sure, and your DM will be very happy you chose to bullshit your way out of it. You are not looking for a way to roleplay your character, you are looking for a way to use out of game knowledge to optimize your character's choices.
Wouldn't that just make a wizard quit that school and pick up a sword if magic is useless against such monsters?
Legendary Resistance are not a perfect solution, I agree, but if you ruin your DM's fun on purpose, you're forgetting they are a player too.
If you want a "justification war", the DM wins, because that's what the rulebooks told them is their right. Just have fun with the game. Play dynamic, focus on the feeling and the social part, experiment with tactics.
@@Sulicius "Wouldn't that make a wizard quit that school and pick up a sword" Has the practice of wrestling died out because we don't stand a chance in a wrestling match with a gorilla?
The definition of what is and isn't metagaming is going to change from table to table. I get that. As a GM I tend to subscribe to the same way of thinking about it as Matt Colville (he did a good video on it)... I'm not going to penalize my players for not wanting to waste turns doing things they already know aren't going to work. "Figure out legendary resistance" isn't the test, "Defeat the dragon" is. I'll absolutely call out "your character doesn't know that" if... say... a PC attacks someone out of nowhere because another PC in a different room learned that random someone was actually a doppelganger.
That being said, I get where you're coming from. It can be frustrating when you want an RP focused game and your players came looking for Warhammer Quest. In the rare times I get to play (life of a forever DM and all that) I tend to mess around more than I should because I actually *do* have metagame knowledge that I don't want to leverage. It really depends on your table. Some tables you can get away with doing that, where others wasting even a single action could mean the death of one or more PCs.
@@kevingriffith6011 I literally tell my Chronurgy Wizard when a monster has legendary resistance so I don’t break his heart every boss fight. I want there to be a better way, I don’t want to watch my players roll dice and don’t allow my dragon to roll dice. Don’t wr all want drama? Don’t we all want edge-of-your-seat excitement? Optimizers are not looking for that. They want to, as Matt described it: solve D&D. They don’t want to defeat the dragon, they don’t care about it being a dragon. They just want themselves to be effective with every turn and make THE difference in every fight.
As a DM I waste my monster’s turns ALL THE TIME. Because that is what makes it fun to the players. Last Wednesday a monster tried to fear the 19th level Conquest Paladin who has been immune to fear for over 10 levels. That is how the game is supposed to work. Your PC learns from experience, sure. They might learn that dragons are resilient to magic. They pc’s never learn how magic resistance works, because they never learn the word “hit points”.
A group of PC’s is incredibly tough, and a tactical party can survive far more than any WotC combat building rules advise. Players want to win a combat in 1 turn, a DM should never.
I love when you talk about your own experiences and what worked like that story about the Rak Tulkesh. I love it when you talk about tactics like that in general. Although a strategy like that would probably be hard to pull off at my table because i'd have a hard time convincing my "frontline" rune knight fighter to stay in the back and buff me and let the range characters do all the damage. Also Why didn't the Rak Tulkesh hold his action or something for when you're characters came around to take pop shots at him. He would have still been rolled but it would have helped him.
That would have been a good strategy. I guess the DM didn't think about it at the time (neither did I)
i kind of think of legendary resistances as a second health bar against instant kill or disabling effects more than anything- i feel that more creatures should have them (not 3 but like, just 1 or so on smaller things). but that also means having a slightly more balanced creature design which honestly... is a lot to ask from wotc
I'd like to see legendary resistance in a more gradient form. Failed rolls can be turned into successes by the boss, but instead of expending 1 resistance, they whittle away at a secondary HP-like pool by an amount equal to the difference between the roll and the DC. The bigger the bad, the larger the pool. It's one more thing for the DM to keep track of, but that's not a huge obstacle.
A more direct option would be to have Legendary Resistance cost HP instead of being "x/day", that way everyone is whittling away at the same pool
@@HouseLyrander For sure. It is already very close to this in reality, as LR has an HP tax of 10/20/30 hp as per the DMG's chapter on making monsters.
Sounds like Pathfinder 2e with Incapacitate and it also removed save or die spells too by having 4 stages of success with Critical Success and Critical Fail on saves.
Thats why I like legendary resistance. I HATE magic resistance being on top of that though, just increase their save DC by 3 and remove magic resistance.
@@archmagemc3561 you sound like you HATE enemies succeeding on saving throws. Also wouldn’t that DEcrease a DC?
Nowadays I reduce the number of Legendary resistences of monsters down to 1. That's one oppertunity it has to prevent something that would otherwise take it out in an anticlimactic way. Afterwards everything is fair game.
Most of my players do not play optimised characters, or do not play their characters in an optimised way.
Rak Tulkhesh should be able to target itself with Dispel Magic to dispel the effect of Telekinesis. Rak Tulkhesh is the target of the Telekinesis spell (it has a 60ft range, not a range of self).
Sorry if someone already brought this up. I didn't see it in any of the first 50 or so comments.
Overall though, I absolutely agree with the point of this video. I've been telling people this for ages.
We discussed whether dispel on himself would end the effect. The DM decided that the telekinesis comes from the caster...but could have ruled the other way just as easily.
@@TreantmonksTemple I was wondering the same thing. I could go either way on that, myself. On the one hand, the spell reads like it gives the caster telekinetic powers (and the caster is the target). On the other, those powers are "magic affecting a target".
Also, on the one hand, it says you have to see the target to affect it, but it's not clear if you have to keep it in view at all. It's possible you might not have to even pop out every round to maintain the contest. (I could go either way on that point too).
Although if you _do_ need to pop into view on your turn to renew the spell, Rak would have been better off readying Dispel Magic to cast at you, since he could do little else.
Alternatively, he could have Shape-Changed into a Spirit Troll (a giant), which is immune to Restrained. That would have helped forestall the inevitable a little. Maybe make the fight slightly more interesting. Alternatives include a Cloud Giant or Githyanki Gish (misty step 3/day from innate spells). Githyanki Enlightened (teleport and plane shift 1/day innate). etc
How to beat legendary resistance:
1. Cast conjure animals [bonus points if Shepard]
2. Wall of force [if it doesn't teleport]
3. Bless
4. Pass without trace
5. Basically any good ally buff class/sub-class feature [Aura of protection, Emboldening Bond, Bardic Inpsiraiton]
6. Spike Growth [if it doesn't fly or teleport]
Why pass without trace?
@@Lycaon1765 Pass without Trace basically gives everyone in your party the ability to almost always surprise an enemy as long as there are places to hide (so like a dungeon or forest or smth). No save or anything cause its vs passive perception, so everyone gets a free turn!
There is one problem. Intelligent enemies will not use LR when targeted with low-level spells
BTW No Sickening Radiance? One of the most powerful spells if you can consistently keep a creature in AoE
I hate legendary resistance so much. It basically negates an entire play style from the game and every way to get around it also reduces your effectiveness. And most ways to get around it are situational or only available to one class.
I understand the need for it, and any replacement would add a lot of complication, but still, it’s stupid.
Maybe legendary resistance shouldn't work on spells from 6th to 9th spell level?
It seems like most of the more powerful options to overcome legendary resistances come at spell levels 4 and up (with some exceptions). As a DM if you wanted to reduce the dominance of control based casters, would you introduce some enemies with a single legendary resistance between party levels 3 and 6?
Introducing legendary resistance before the level 9 mark is not good in my opinion. There are plenty of ways to get around early control spells. Hold person? Add more people. Slow? Have them surrounded so it can’t target but a few. If you’re really having trouble include spellcasters with counterspell or dispel magic (not too many, enough that the party can play around, but is forced to think a lot more).
Countering in other ways will always be more enjoyable that your first spell just not working.
also due to lower proficiency and unmaxed stats, DC's are pretty low and slots are limited at that level, so it kinda sucks when one of your few successes get bypassed.
For your enchantment wizard build, what would be a good option for circumventing legendary resistance? Sleet storm? Maybe taking tasha's mind whip?
A single party member should not try to solo burn through legendary resistances--that's 3 turns doing nothing. But as a group effort, especially if the group has a member with low value resources that are still threatening enough to spend legendary resistances on, it can be reasonable.
If you happen to face an enemy with a low enough CON saving throw, a monk can reasonably burn through legendary resistances with stunning strike. That's not going to be every enemy--a lot of top end enemies have astronomical CON saves. Don't try this against an ancient red dragon, they'll just make all their CON saves anyway. But against an enemy with low enough CON saves (usually any enemy that is medium or smaller won't be above +10) expending typically low-value monk resources to enable the wizard/bard/sorcerer in the party is an ok plan.
I mean, you could ask why you had a monk in the party in the first place, but if you do, and you face the right kind of enemy with a low enough CON save, using the monk to enable the spellcasters is not a bad way to make that party work together.
This was my first thought, but it requires a caster-heavy party working together. The question is whether you can burn through legendary resistances faster than you can burn through its HP. But most parties can't compel all the legendary resistances faster than they can burn through its HP. (And don't even bring up con saves.)
Hmm. So you're saying that instead of focusing on a single aspect of combat, we should make well-rounded casters, who can buff allies, debuff enemies, shape the battlefield, and maybe do some damage? Where have I heard this before? Kind of reminds me of a God Wizard build I read about this one time.
Broken record.
our cleric insisted on “burning” our enemy’s legendary resistances. combat lasted 4 turns and he got off one bane spell.
Great vid! I was just thinking about this since our party fought Strahd in CoS a few weeks ago. Also, didnt know you were Canadian!! Huzzah to fellow Canadians 🙌
As a yes-ander I hate legendary resistance. I hate what it does to my roleplay. I do something, and the creature just says "Yes, but actually no" as opposed to responding.
I have a bad experience with a Lich in my first campaign as a bard. I didn't know what legendary resistance was, and my bard was focused on debuffs. It just felt like everytime i did something, the DM just said "no". Not to mention it had counterspelll. All of the problem solving of Debuff builds goes out the window, I just sat there spaming Vicious Mockery and that's it. I would have preferred a stronger version that reflected it back and then I could roleplay getting hit.
I feel like monsters need something more elegant than legendary resistance to make things feel interactive.
While I don't like 4e, I like how they made their Legendary Resistance equivalent cost a percent of the monster's max HP to use instead of being a "X per Day" thing since it solved the problem Legendary Resistance was trying to solve (save-or-suck ending fights too fast) without making save reliant casters useless. I especially like this solution because my group likes Bards a lot and they have VERY limited options against LR
Na. Legendary resistance is a necessity for game balance. The monster isn't saying no the monster is resisting the effect by sheer power of their will and each time exhausts then basically. You should have a backup plan that doesn't involve cheesing the enemy with debuffs. as a bard you can easily audible over to buffing your party who won't resist your spells. Stay at least 60ft away from caster enemies to avoid counterspell or jump behind a rock so they can't see you when you cast your buff spell.
@@justinstreet1254 I understand there is counterplay now, but as a new player, it felt bad. It seemed like the enemy could just walk by, and I could be yelling, casting spells, or doing whatever, and it's like I'm not even there. If it reflected it back at me, or caused it to summon a skeleton (which would be a buff), at least it did something. If I cast Hideous Laughter, now I get to roleplay laughing my butt off at the monster, as opposed to just being ignored. That's my big gripe with it. It's not that I'm not doing anything, it's that I feel like the monster just sort of ignores me. and with a spellcaster that only changes their spellls on level up, it's not like I could go back and prepare different spells.
And trust me, I've learned my lesson. I now prepare buff spells more over debuff spells and have researched how counterspell works, but for somebody who was new to the game, it didn't feel interactive or fun at all. I would have preferred something stronger if it was more interactive.
@@TheKilogram1000 that’s just part of the any game. If you are a melee character flying characters nerf you. If you a rangers chatater then characters getting in your face nerf you. If you are caster then caster enemies nerf you. It’s just part of the game. A good gm should have a session after where the player feels useful
@@TheKilogram1000 The DM should still RP the monster resisting or counterspelling, rather than just saying 'nope'.
If I'm playing with a party that relies on saving throws for their effects I sometimes drop a contagion on the boss on an early turn. It's threatening enough to use LR on and it requires multiple saving throws to actually shake, all the while it is suffering from poisoned which helps my allies survive.
I'm surprised neither you nor anyone in the comments mentioned Maze (or maybe you did, but I honest to god did not hear it). A high intelligence check that requires an action, or the boss has to use a spell that shifts them out of the plane, but doesn't even guarantee they'll return to the same place probably. Meanwhile you dispatch of the minions and then gang up on the bbeg. Maze is awesome.
Yep, I answered your question as to why Maze wasn't featured at 7:00
@@TreantmonksTemple okay, thank you! Well, I'll just leave the comment up, in case anyone hasn't stumbled upon Maze yet. Thanks again, and keep up the amazing work!
The party movement that you mentioned previously is incredibly helpful. In my limited experience playing an abjuration wizard from 1-20 (only 17th-20 was 5th edition). Scatter along with Crown of Stars and others you mentioned helped allow me to aid allies and still help bring the BBEG's hit points to zero.
I think there may be an effective way to burn through legendary resistances quickly, but it's not a spell caster option: battlemaster. If they unload all of their battlemaster dice on a single round (multiple attacks, action surge) they can force a creature to make a save several times in a single turn. Menacing attack is a pretty debilitating option for a lot of creatures if a they aren't immune to fear, and trip attack is great for flying enemies. It might not be the most optimal approach out there, but I think if you want to burn them all on a single turn/round of combat this is the way to do it. There's also a possible monk/battlemaster multiclass which stacks stunning strike with this approach to overwhelm the monster with saving throws. Again, maybe not optimal, but a better approach than using spell casting.
The Monk doesn't even need to multi-class. Starting at 5th level a Monk can force 4 Con saves against a single target in 1 round, assuming all 4 of their attacks hit. (Does burn 5 of their Ki points though.)
@@johncox7169 a multiclass works better. For 3 fighter levels you get 2 additional attacks from action surge and 4 superiority die which can target better saving throws (strength or wisdom) which can complement the monks con saving throws. 4 battlemaster die for three levels is arguably better than gaining 3 ki for three monk levels besides the other benefits. Could even be 5 if you use superior technique. However I think going Open Hand Monk would be a solid option as flurry of blows can add another two saving throws to the mix.
@@reespewa Open Hand Monk + 3-Battlemaster can dish out an ungodly number of saving throws in one round if they want to.
@@agilemind6241 yep! I made this point on an earlier reply. I think a way to push it further is with three levels of dread ambusher for the initiative bonus (hit the enemy before your allies) and get the extra two attacks with action surge. Now it's starting to look like a full build!
Melf’s Minute Meteor is another great choice. You force two saves per turn as a bonus action and still can cast normally with an action!
Also glad to see Rune Knight get love! I’ve always seen it’s potential but it’s often overlooked. I actually gave my DM a rune knight character to use as a villain because I didn’t end up playing my Viking Goliath
My sorlock recently got Agonizing Blast, so for the cost of 2 sorcery points i can hit it twice. Thanks to Charisma of 22, plus an item that increases damage rolls by +1, my bolts deal 1d10+7 per bolt. I could be dealing 70 damage in a turn from it since I'm level 11.
I also have Greater Invisibility and Storm Sphere to either have advantage on those eldritch blasts rolls or repeated lightning strikes with my bonus action each turn.
Legendary resistance - the DM revenge for the shield spell.
The problem is many spells are an "I win" button, so if there wasn't legendary resistance by boss fights would be over in an anti-climatic instant. I like giving mid-range bosses a single use of legendary resistance.
how did he avoid dispel magic from Rak Tulkesh? Doesn't dispel magic target any effect within 120 feet, no line of sight required?
Do you think you could make a build for each and every class that can reliably get it's best features back on a short rest, and/or is able to survive without long resting (but not sleeping) for a long time?
A simplified example for a wizard would be an abjurerur and their ability to rebuild their ward with ritual casting alarm.
Bonus points for not multiclassing
That would be pretty tough for some classes. Sorcerers are the first class to come to mind.
Artificer - Battlesmith
Barbarian - you're stuck, everything is tied to rage and rage is LR
Bard - Swords Bard or Valor Bard, throw up single concentration spell then go for weapon attacks - preferably bows
Cleric - Arcana get some decent cantrips to spam plus a long-lasting CD, or Nature for Thorn Whip + Spirit Guardians, or Twilight b/c CD is all you ever need to be as powerful as most other characters.
Druid - Moon and go Wildshape-martial or Shepherd and max your concentration to keep summons around as long as possible.
Fighter - Battlemaster - everything comes back on a SR
Monk - any everything comes back on a SR
Paladin - Conquest use that fear aura CD then pick them off one by one with standard melee attacks
Ranger - Hunter - most of your features are unlimited
Rogue - any except Phantom/Tickster all of their features are always on. (Swashbuckler is the best)
Sorcerer - Wild Magic - get can get a lot of stuff back from Wild Magic Surges from Tides of Chaos to sorcery points
Warlock - any focus on EB and concentration spells
Wizard - Enchantment - they get good non-spell abilities that don't run out.
@@TreantmonksTemple I think it would probably come down to Feats like Healer, Inspiring leader, and may even require some feats like the Abberant Dragonmark feat.
That way you at least feel like you're actively contributing every time you short rest.
The other half of it would probably be using races that have abilities that recharge on a short rest, like the pre Monsters of the Multiverse version of the Firbolg
Even if someone wants to do the whittling away at LRs tactic that's something you can't just do by yourself, strategize with your party so you don't burn your big spell slots just to break through an enemy's resistance.
i like the example(s) from your own game. they make the theory feel more concrete and actionable, and also bring your own experience to life
Storm Rune: Using this rune, you can glimpse the future like a storm giant seer. While wearing or carrying an object inscribed with this rune, you have advantage on Intelligence (Arcana) checks, and you can't be surprised as long as you aren't incapacitated.
Telekinesis: ... Make an ability check with your spellcasting ability contested by the creature's Strength check. ...
I don't think these should combo. right?
Oh, and for Legendary Resistances: instead of the usual 3 resistances, I prefer just giving the monster a Reaction to use a legendary resistance for free, as long as it is not "bloodied". After they are down to 1/2 HP, they are fair game for a save or suck.
You mentioned there's a lot of spells that can get round legendary resistance, more than you could mention in one video. Any chance you'd be up for publishing a list of these per class?
Always wondered why folks didn't utilize non save spells more... Hell magic missile is insanely good...
The example of Rak Tulkesh doesn't seem to make any sense. If it can cast dispel magic - why wouldn't it simply cast dispel magic on itself to remove the effect of telekinesis? Dispel magic isn't used against the caster of the spell, it's used against the creature affected by the spell. It didn't need to peak around the corner to dispel it on you, it would have just dispelled it on itself.
The combo with a bard or rune knight in the party, while handy, does not let you walk over enemies like you've described, unless you're ignoring RAW as you seem to suggest happened in that example.
My group was fighting a dragon in our last session. After watching this session, I decided that buffing my ally with Haste and using every spell slot I had to ping the dragon with 3rd and 2nd level Magic Missiles was best, since by the time I would have burned through its legendary resistances, the fight would have been over.
We barely scraped by! But the extra guaranteed damage I could throw in definitely helped our party win.
That's why I take spells like dissonant whispers, blow that resistance on a 1st lvl spell or eat a booming stack, and 2 AoOs from the paladin and EK.
Its true I think legendary resistance just requires chip damage to overcome. It is less fun when you cant used your cool ultra mega omega laser beam attack... but it is also less cool when the miniboss just gets one shot on turn one with nobody else getting a chance to do anything.
As a side note, couldnt the Rak Tulekhesh still dispel magic your telekinesis from around the corner? You dont need sight on the target creature to dispel and telekinesis is a 60ft range compared to 120ft dispel. Something to remember.
Interesting. Also yay, Chris addresses a question I asked on the discord that he didn't answer.
Deserved a full video!
@@Adurnis my question was about Crusader's Mantle on Conjure Animals or other summons
Spot on! Just got to think of LR as something to burn first. A lot of spells have repeated saving throws and unless your DM really hates you they will always use them on fails, so you can burn them with things like Web
Legendary resistances essentially just shutting down a large swath of spells has always bothered me, but I also understand that the big boss monster just getting hard CC'd turn 1 and then beat to death is also deeply unsatisfying.
A pie in the sky solution to me is for legendary resistance not to negate the spell, but downgrade it to a lesser effect. Hold Monster, if subject to legendary resistance, would restrain instead of paralyze. But there are so many spells (and non spell effects that cause saves) that having a way for all of them to downgrade when subject to legendary resistance would be a lot of extra work and balancing.
Another idea is that legendary resistance, when used on a spell with a duration instead of an instantaneous effect, is to reduce the duration of the spell's duration to 1 round no matter what. Potentially, this version wouldn't even have limited uses per day. You can hold monster, but it will never last more than one round. Of course, most boss monster encounters still often only last a few rounds, so this version may be in effect not all that different than not having legendary resistance at all, if by the time the boss has recovered from your automatically successful hold monster's through portent they are at 20% hp or dead.
Another possibility is some kind of consolation prize that is gained when legendary resistance is used, regardless of what it was used on. For example, maybe using a legendary resistance would prevent a monster from regaining legendary actions on the next turn. It would have to be determined on a per monster basis though, since some monsters may have legendary resistance without legendary actions.
have you ever played or heard about the video game divinity original sin ? It's a video game, a crpg. But it had an interesting system. On top of the normal hit points creatures have something called physical armor and magical armor. They act as secountary hp pools to be depleted by actual hp. Physical damage like being hit by a sword deplete physical armor while spells like lighting bolt deplete magical armor. And the main and est part is, all the very nasty spells, the CC, have no effect unless they it ann enemy with it's physical/magical armor stripped (depends on the effect in general physical effect like being trapped in a web demands physical armor stripped, while magical effects like being frozen or paralysed demands magical armor stripped). I'm sure it is possible to make a system like that. Like all legendary monsters have a secondary pool of magic resistance points and all spells deals a certain amount of damage to this magic resistance. And saving against the spell halves the effect. the creature can choose to et a spell pass hoping he will save . In fact some monsters may have weaknesses to this resistance, spell that can go through or do extra damage to it, like a vampire being weak against light based spells
As DM, I just have a homebrew replacement to legendary resistance.
While I agree with this video, I think as a sorc quickening tashas hideous laughter and then throwing out a damage cantrip is just as effective, it is only a level one slot and leaves the DM in a bad place, does he use his LR or get knocked prone and incapacitated, and I still do damage if that is the thing I want to do, then when I fell it is safe and want to use the big spell combos I can feel safe doing so. Yes there are spells that avoid that resistance, but not playing with some of the best spells because LR exists seems like playing with one hand behind your back. Still great ways to do damage and utility without those spells, but when the fight really matters you want to have your big hitters.
Telekinesis and Bigby's hand might be the best spells in the game for fighting huge or smaller creatures with legendary actions. There is a surprising number of creatures who aren't immune to restrained condition.
Honestly you can't call yourself a good full caster if God can survive a combat encounter with your party
When ur warlock tries to help against a giant who straight up ignores all spells below 6 levels... And has multiple reactions per round.
I think the narration of this resistance is what’s lacking. To give it more kick just make a resistance permanent vs the magic it repels.
Now you gotta have four different aces to overcome three resistances. Casting the same spell over and over won’t work.
At 13:00 you speak about using Telekinesis to wreck an enemy whilst not allowing to use legendary resistances. The Warlock's Hex spell allows you to give them disadvantage on ability checks. So if you have a Warlock in the party and this might come up as a tactic, let them know so you can make this work.
As a side note, I happen to like playing monks and often they can really help by spamming stuns which force the enemy to expend legendary saves. I know this isn't the point of the video but it also bears mention that the first tactic you mentioned although suboptimal becomes better when non-spellcasters get in on the action to assist in clearing the way for the full spellcasters. It's not a great tactic but as a team game too often the party doesn't work as a team and this is the real cause of issues.
Don't expect Treantmonk to understand that multiple characters can force a monster into saving throws or that monks have something strong about them. It's all about the one wizard.
@@Sulicius To the contrary he understands fully but the video can't make all the assumptions that your group will be built in this way. He is putting out information based on the things he can account for and control. Party makeup is rarely in the control of a single player. Still it's a useful thought to put out there if one digs deeper than the video and starts reading the comments.
This seems so obvious, but these are all things I hadn’t previously considered
This set of tactics is amazing. I honestly never thought about it this way. very interesting.
One teleport that works for wall of ice or wall of stone is teleport to a space *above* the other side of the wall. Sure you'll take some paltry fall damage, but meh
Can you true polymorph your familiar into a mind devourer? If so you could 0 int many monsters to stunned non sentience really fast.
You assume the caster is at full by the time they get to this foe. Its usually late in the adventuring day and casters have held there big hitters for the foe.
The best option is to use the heavy hitters early and use these type of spells for the BBEG.
Thinking about that Telekinesis/Spike Growth combo. If a party member has Hex, that could be devastating. Target Strength and now the enemy has disadvantage on the checks. And if they burn a Legendary Resistance it's not the end of the world, and potentially not very expensive if it was a 1-2 level Warlock dip. Congratulations, you've used a LR on a 1st level spell. :D
Spike growth isn't strength saves?
@@CharalamposKoundourakis but telekinesis spell is a str check.
@@cham888 Aha! To break free!
I think this points to an underlying issue with 5e encounter design. The fights don't go long enough for burning through 3 Legendary Resistances to be a viable tactic.
Don't think I've had a single monster with legendary resistances that hasn't used them all. Shows you how table to table differs.
Even if it did, burning 3 spells knowing they will do absolutely nothing is simply not fun, even if eventually you hit something that does.
With a party of 6, my monsters almost always burn through all their legendary resistances before the end of combat.
@@travisdunlap4526 I protest from my experience as a full caster, I find the cat and mouse game fun. Use spells powerful enough to trigger the resistance but not too powerful. All three down? Blast the stroggest spell!
@@CharalamposKoundourakis My last campaign had a notable caster, and I could definately see the deflation on their face whenever their big spells were taken out by legendary resistance.
I think the other issue is it depends on party composition. In a caster heavy party, you could have 3 casters all throw down one spell, each player loses 1 round and 1 spell...not too bad. Conversely a party with a single caster who has to spend 3 rounds and 3 spells....feels a lot more of the burden.
wall of ice can be pretty easily broken though, no?
there's only 1 spell it's called SMITE 😏
15:00 - Why didn't the creature hold it's action and dispel you when you peaked around the corner?
As an experienced DM: bosses cannot concentrate on spells. They take so much damage in so many instances that they lose concentration on a spell usually before their next turn (unless it's using Greater Invisibility and has Legendary Resistance). A monster would have to use its action, concentration AND its reaction to do this, which means it does nothing else of note. There's 3 other party members, they will be ignored and beat the snot out of the monster.
More importantly, since Telekenisis targets the creature, and not "Self", the creature could have just used Dispel Magic on itself to get rid of the effect.
That is why my battle smith artificer war magic wizard has a sword so that I can beat the crap out of it
I have a great sword that petrifiesp things if they fail a save but with legendary resistance it won't work. So it does a good amount of damage on its own
Cast smarter, not harder! Know your enemies, target their weaknesses.
In some ways 5.0 feels like a big 'fxk off' to the player. Legendary resistance, no magic item economy, attunement, the nerf to buffs...oh and concentration
blanket magic saving throw advantage for some creature types, tons of resistance/immunities but little vulnerability. and ya, concentration, so easy to drop and such a limiting factor.
Hey, hey! Spirit Guardians! The spell I actually stopped using because it felt like I was cheating every time I used it.
Except in that bar, against those thugs. I'm glad my phantom dead, intangible skeletons dangling rotten death shrouds, wailing the symphony written by the sins of those they faced, killed all of them.
Also the examples are all concentration spells, so baddie with legendary resistances and Bob, the guy who's pretty ok at his bow, can still wreck these plans.
After seeing the whole video...nice. All I got
Dispel magic doesn’t require sight actually. A corner would not stop them, they simply need to know the magical effect exists within the range.
Full cover stops all spells as per the spellcasting rules.
Anyone list all the monsters images on the video
in Solasta Crown of the Magister there are monsters with unlimited legendary resistance
IMO it’s just a game balance issue. CC was made too powerful and therefore needed to be nerfed at higher levels when you have access to so many spells. Wotc didn’t have to add autocrits on paralysis or make slow as busted as it is. But they did and so it had to be stopped.
It’s in a similar vein to a big problem in the video game Divinity 2 original sin. Basically, the best strategy was to get the enemies armor down and stun lock them until you win. It made the game unfun for some people, and so many mods changed it by simply making those stunning status effects simply have bad debuffs instead of an actual full stun.
Yep, crowd control was a problem in that they made it overpowered, and while Slow is already a problem spell, it at least could be healthy if it was nerfed, whereas control spells like Hypnotic Pattern or Banishment are basically able to take away entire actions, which is not fun for the DM.
Wouldn't wall of force block sight in the same way as wall of ice? It's a see-through wall, but doesn't it give total cover to the other side, still?
misty step/far step have a range of self with a sight requisite and Wall of Force is invisible, so no line of effect issues. Dimension door reads like it ignores cover and only requires you visualize the coordinates you want. A spell like blink or etherealness would be blocked due to blocking ethereal travel.
Legendary Resistance is a bad mechanic.
Anyone got ideas on a sorcerer ranger build?
please do the magic missile video :)
I likely will in not too long.
They are called save or suck for a reason
Legendary resistance, but ESPECAILLY magic resistance, is why I make all my bards Eliquence now. A sometimes +12 to your save DC means even on a nat 20 boss monsters sometimes can't make that save with their magic resistance and are forced to use their legendary resistance. I burn through all 3 of those, combat over. I like legendary resistance since its a secondary resource to burn through to get a win vs a boss, I HATE magic resistance because it just feels like BS when its on top of legendary resistance if you don't have something to make it a non issue.
But you have the issue of there only being 3-4 rounds in a combat sometimes.
There's almost a change in philosophy that spellcasters might want to consider as they gain levels.
Better to use your slots on spells that end up doing nothing - or - ones you know will.
Spend your slots disabling your foes or boosting yourself and your allies?
Good tactical vid. Thanks for the info. 👍
As an aside Chris, I noticed that you have a Battle Smith guide (for the Artificer), but I didnt see one for the Armorer. I also vaguely remember you mentioning its relatively low power level compared to the Battle Smith.
I wonder: Provided that there's a way to build an Armorer Artificer optimally over 20 levels, have you considered doing a vid on that? Personally I'm thinking either a dip into Rogue for Arcane Trickster, or into Fighter for Eldritch Knight for this one; the Wizard (either War Magic, Chronoturgy, or Divination) seem like an obvious go-to, but such a dip wouldn't be for more than 2 levels in those cases, and I'm thinking there may be a better way to pull it off, both in terms of damage output, and in terms of combat effectiveness.
Thanks again.
Great video, as always.
Ever since 5e came out, I have ruled that monsters use LR to burn their first three failures, regardless of the spell level. Yes, this does mean I’ve have dragons burn a LR to succeed against Sacred Flame. The way I see it, a monster isn’t consciously aware of LR in the same way PCs are consciously aware of hit points, feats, and class features. So they can’t “choose” when to succeed and when to fail.