I started reloading old cartridges in 1975. I'm posting since there wasn't any good advice then about safely loading smokeless in older cartridges. The current manual at the time was Lymans #45. I almost disassembled an 1873 Winchester using that data. I don't trust the books since then. It has taken a lot of experience to load any cartridge with smokeless and confidence. Well done video. Thanks
5744 has been my go to for 45-90, 45-120 and 50-95 win. The loads have been used in modern production rifles and I do bump those loads up abit more in those rifles but generally not considerably. But in my originals the loads I used with 5744 have been at a safe pressure with zero issues. There are too many purists out there who will only use bp and will try to strike the fear of god into you for using smokeless but at safe pressures smokeless is completely fine and much cleaner to use. DuPont published data back in the day which if you used 40% of the original black powder charge of IMR4198 this would equal close to the same pressure as the bp load produced. I have used this method in 38-55 and it has worked great.
i came across this video and while it's a year old, i hope you're still watching. i'm performing the same iteration using 44 russian data to create data for a 44 henry using a modified 44 special case for winchester 66 rifles i have reconstructed. you are very insightful - i love your channel - and any thoughts you may have are welcome. the bs out there is overwhelming and companies are fearful of lawyers. keep up the good work
@@mikefedorko7387 glad to hear it. Thank you. I’ve heard that you can make 44 Henry center fire out of 41 mag brass trimmed to length and use a heeled based bullet but I don’t have any experience with that.
What's funny is the old printed Trail Boss information package used to tell you that it could be used safely in any firearm, in good condition. It then proceeded to explain how to develop a load for cartridges not listed. TB was my goto for subsonic 7.62x39 with 180-220 grain projectiles. It's a secret, don't tell anyone I used the Hodgdon guidance to develop them. One tip: when using powders other than TB, where you have a small charge in a big case, I usually put 1-2 grains of dacron fluff in the case to hold the powder against the primer. No, it doesnt make a compressed load, just makes the cargridge not position sensitive. Acts a little like a shot wad.
I have had great results using AA 5744, Trailboss , and Unique. Great factual data , additionally have been subscriber of Reloader Mag/Ken Waters pet loads for over 40 yrs, Thanks for sharing this, another great video
Been using Unique for years and it’s does very well in such a variety of cartridges and uses. Many complain that’s it’s dirty but I don’t mind cleaning my guns and when shooting cast anyway you got to expect a bit of residue 🤷🏻♂️
Shooter's World (Lovex) makes a powder they call Buffalo Rifle, which is manufactured in the Czech Republic. In their burn rate chart, it is roughly equivalent to 5744. In their description, they say "It has a burn rate optimized for straight walled cartridges such as 38-55 and 45-70." It is an extruded propellant. I intend to try some as soon as I can, since Trail Boss is no longer available. I have used a couple of other powders from them, and have found them to be very good and clean burning, and MUCH less expensive than the old standards that we have ben using for decades here in the US -- on the order of about $28-30/lb, when bought in one pound containers. All of the major outlets like Midway and Midsouth are starting to carry them.
I LOVE the trap door rifle. I really wish the design was pushed further with modern alloys and engineering. I was considering picking up one but fell in love with an amazing 45-70 browning highwall BPCR.
Great video. Sometimes you have to do some extrapolation to come up with load data. I figure that's part of the process, but I sure catch a bunch of crap from other handloaders about it. I probably have way more fun than they do! Unique is my favorite smokeless powder for cast bullets.
Great video! While it is always good to exercise caution, and do circumspection, it’s my opinion that sometimes people are over cautious. I use IMR 4198 for my 1884 trap door, carbine, cavalry model, and the load I use is somewhere around 16,000 psi, which is well below the safe standard for that cartridge in Rifle. it also gives me really good velocity for the short barrel and a 350 grain cast lead lead bullet. Lee says the bullets are 340 grain but when I William they come out to 351 grains. It’s also a very accurate load. If someone wants to look it up it’s in the Hodgdon reloading manual for 4570 Springfield trap door data. Keep up the great videos.
Great video! I should have said that for the Shooters World Buffalo Rifle powder, I use the 5744 numbers as it has the exact same burn rate and is a “rod type” single base like 5744. Results and velocities are almost the exact same. Feels very safe in my 2nd Allen convo 1866. Great to see the trapdoor love between your channel and 11 bang bang, keep them coming!
I learned everything I need to know about reloading from one eyed Willy and no nose Ned. Four fingers Fred tried to learn me but his dexterity ain’t what it used to be.
Have you tried IMR-4198? I use English Black Powder Express doubles and singles, and it works good in the heavy hitters. The normal ratio is 40% or .40 X the black powder charge = grain weight of IMR-4198. I have used it in the little .45-70 as well, so perhaps the .50-70 would like it.
5744 is fantastic. I go thru about a case or two of black a year, but on the flip side of that coin, I'll eat thru an 8lb jug of 5744 as well. With proper load development, it has never outperformed the accuracy of black on paper and at long range, but that's a different topic for a different day. The average trapdoor owner will never need match grade accuracy anyway.
I stumbled onto your videos last week when I was trying to find some information regarding using FG in a 36 cal 1851 Navy. I have a pound of it and want to put it to good use. THANK YOU! Barnes' Cartridges of the World has smokeless reloading data for the 50-70, including IMR 4198 and 3031. I had a similar situation when I wanted to reload my M71 Mauser, cal 11.15x60, aka .43 Mauser. I initially used black powder, filled the case quite full, and seated the bullet to the crimp groove with finger pressure only (EDIT, not much powder compression) no sizing or crimping as I had no reloading dies. It was quite accurate. There's no published smokeless powder data for the .43 Mauser from the big reloading and powder companies, so I started with some light loads that were recommended for the 45-70... IMR 4227, IMR 4198, 5744, and SR 4759. They all work just fine in my old Mauser. BTW here's the usual disclaimer... Use at your own risk... I have no control over the condition of the firearm, techniques used, components used, or other elements of the reloading and shooting process. As such I will not be held liable for the use of any data found in my comments.
@@Everythingblackpowder I can't claim originality of the phrase, but I first heard it long ago, and I'm at least as old as dirt. LOL! Happy to share a smile!
I hope to encourage your research. After you have been at this for 50 years you will accumulate just about every reloading manual known to man going back to 1900. If you don't already have a copy I strongly recommend finding a copy of Phil Sharpe's complete guide to reloading. 1953 edition. Most of the powders he uses are out of production ,except black powder of course. Most of the book is the history and state of the art of smokeless powder manufacturing. I haven't seen a current book with such in-depth description of powder science. Great source of information for developing your own loads and how to not kill yourself. The current edition of Lymans cast bullet loading guide has several good load suggestions for 500 grain bullets as well as their cast 435 gr bullet. Keep up the good work.
Hogdon does give loading info for this. I should have watched before typing this. That trailboss is some cool stuff. I am very surprised they called it quits on it. There are many handloaders using it for subsonic loads for all kinds of cartridges. A .221 fireball for example can be loaded down to 22 rimfire levels safely which is handy as hell for small game hunters.
Like your critical comparison study. As a newbie to shooting antiques I have read the “authorities “ and the pure black powder to prevent a catastrophe. You have taken a reasonable approach and I like the documented results. I would also like to see some commentary on the levels of residue for cleanup. Great job!
Video didn’t suck so you got a like from me. Good video. My gunsmith recommended IMR 3031. Has a more consistent pressure curve ? Got home and looked through some old manuals I have, and there it was, load data for it.
Man ...9.5 of traiboss in my 1870 50/70 is very accurate, great video and made me re think trailboss, the rounds i made up were so fun im doing it again lol, 50/70, model 1870, 9.5 gr, 450 gr lee .515, with the lead im using closer to 460 gr weight
Shot a lot of Unique loads in 50-70 and 45-70 in trapdoor some 50 years ago. Can't remember the loads. Used a card on top of powder and topped off with oatmeal. No compression.
Excellent and logical content as always, the only thing I do differently is to place sponge or dacron over the small volume of nitro to keep it in place, the nitro looks very lonely down there in the bottom of a large case, all nitro for black cartridges were loaded that way, and it gives better constancy of ignition. Stay safe ! Chris B.
@@Everythingblackpowder I use this mainly in 45 Colt with Bullseye nitro, black powder being frowned upon at the range, but OK to use in the garden range. But I also use it in 577Nitro Express as modern powders in that case do not give much volume even at 120 grns Chris B.
I like 5744 more than unique because the unique is easy to double or triple charge. 5744 is luckily very large. Even if you double charge it is easy to catch. And by the way I get very accurate results in my 45-70 with it. Even medium range at 300 yards
I believe that LRM primers are specified for those large cases. Smokeless has a problem that it doesn't want to burn at really low pressures. Pistol powders like Unique seem to work better. Ball powders are very prone to blowing unfired powder at low pressures. The bad part is what if you did light it all? So look for a fireball or specks of grit down the bore. If so, move on to another powder. It's really old school, but Unique is always my starting choice.
That looks like a lot of fun, may have to get a replica. I burn a fair amount of 5744 but have come to prefer Herco to Unique. I get a lot of my load data from Handloader and find that everything is safe and is as advertised.
Out of curiosity, how often (round count) do you re-anneal (if at all) your black powder cartridge cases (45 Colt, 45/70, 50/70) to prolong case life and delay neck splits. I use IMR 4759 and A 5744 for my smokeless 1873 Trapdoor loads, but BP is certainly a lot more fun. 🙂I've found that if I raise the muzzle to orient the powder onto the primer before leveling and firing my smokeless loads in big volume cases the spread is much smaller. This was a really well done " Presentation" and I loved it ❤DJ
5744 is a very forgiving powder, and most folks that have had issues with it were using a filler, which is completely unnecessary with that powder, as it is largely insensitive to position within the case. And while it is not needed with the load featured in this video, if one is unsure about a handload that is not published, call the powder company and talk to someone there. If I am using a load I've extrapolated from existing data, I call and ask a ballistician about it. Every time, I've come up with a safe load (after taking into account case volume, type of firearm, projectile weight and construction, etc.), and they were able to verify. In a couple cases however, they told me that while the load was safe, they had worked it out in their lab and the reason it hadn't been published was because it was either inaccurate, had wide velocity variations, was extremely sensitive to temperature variations, or left a lot of fouling. Sometimes it's something as simple as the cartridge is moribund...try finding modern load data for the 32 S&W, for example.
Reloader7 is also a good one for oldies. It can go from mild to wild. In .45-70 I load low 30's for antique arms and you can take it up to 40's for modern or even 50's for Ruger #1.
10gn of Unique is an old go to in all 30 cal cartridges for reduced loads with cast bullets. I like it in my 8x56R with 225gn cast bullets. Consistent POI but far from same POA as any of my jacketed loads
Ever video of yours I have seen have been quit good. Thanks for the info. If you don't mind saying what is the longest you have had black powder rounds load up?
I want to see black powder .223/5.56 in a direct impingement AR-15. Will it cycle and how bad will the fouling be? Also any update on the cupio wood test?
I've had to do similar research comparing pressures of different published loads and checking many forums. I'm working up a load for a Webley mk.6 using an original style 265 gr. hb bullet in a 45 auto rim case. Not a lot out there on this.
Be careful with the Webly, the 45 auto rim is just a rimmed 45 ACP but you can't use 45 ACP load data which is around 21,000 psi, its too much for the Webly which operates around 14,000 psi.
@@jb-xc4oh thanks, I do know that. I settled on a 3.6 grains of bullseye. I run 3.5 grains in my blaster .38 special loads. So it should be plenty low.
That sounds like a good load. I have used 45 auto rim cases too but I had to reduce the rim thickness in order for them to headspace properly. @@napluvr4173
I’m getting back into ball and cap revolvers for the first time in 40 years and I could use some advice. Black powder is like rocking horse shit here so I intend to make my own but in the meantime I’m stuck with using a substitute and I would like your advice on how to thoroughly clean my new pistol. Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Tom K
Regarding compressing homemade black powder, and because I don't have a shop press, what is your opinion on spooning the moistened powder down a 1" PVC pipe and hammering it down with a wooden dowel and a rubber mallet? Would the small amount of water make it more stable to sudden shock?
off topic question which burns cleaner unpucked or pucked powder? fine or course? i understand that pucked powder takes a smaller load than unpucked. from the research i have done highly compressed powder was not available until the mid 1800's. it seems like small grain uncompressed powder would be cleaner burning even thou it takes a little more per load.
One other consideration for using safe pressure smokeless loads in original Trapdoors. In all likelihood, all of the early Trapdoors with 'bad' steel were destroyed during their long and storied service life. This leaves those remaining as exceptional examples of the steel in use at that time.
it is nice to see a manufacturer that is paying attention to what is being reported on their products. Even by relatively small channels. Keep up the good work. Your videos don't suck. Since I have not made any mine may.
Interesting video. I understand your thinking, but isn't confident enough to do it myself. According to SAAMI, the Psi, and C.U.P. is equal at the 45/70. Is it the same with the 50/70?
Shooter's World Buffalo Rifle is supposed to be equivalent to 5744 (many comparisons on the interwebs) and was cheaper and more available prior to coof.
This is one of the guns I always regret not buying theirs been a few for sale up here in Canada over the years. most of them “sporterized” I say it like that because at that time it would have been more then acceptable to make a sporting gun out of a inexpensive military rifle(my snider has the forend cut down). Another common one is the 1871 Mauser single shots again fairly common to see them sporterized both commercially and kitchen table type jobs. Brass for the .50-70 and .43 Mauser is much easier to get then ready made brass for the snider and martini Henry. Theirs still a good supply of dominion .43 Mauser ammo and brass available up here and the various new stuff.
Another Canadian here with similar tastes, I just love the old guns too. I've never come across a good original trapdoor and of course a modern replica would not be considered an antique firearm under Canadian law.
@@jb-xc4oh I have come across plenty not so many in the last few years but used to see lots of original .50-70 and .45-70 examples both full wood and cut down
I read information from a reliable ballistic source years ago it is not the pressure it is the pressure curve. Black powder has a slowly rising pressure while smokeless is very sharp. The difference between a shove and a hit. I do use trail Boss and 5744 in my Mirrpku/Winchester '86 but that gun is a brick.
You’re the only one who has balls enough to talk about smokeless in blackpowder guns, I bought the CVA paramount 40 caliber rifle and was tired of blackpowder costing two to three time smokeless powder. So I bought a pound of accurate 5744 for $29.00 versus black-horn 209 $54.00 for eight ounces. I didn’t know anything about it so I started with 10 grains 5744, and worked up in 5 grain increments on the chronograph until I hit the advertised fps of the black-horn of 2740 fps, for me 45 grains of 5744 brought the 225 grain 40 caliber to 2777 fps. (Gun on top of bench, me under bench) Free at last, free at last, goodby 2 hr cleaning routine, goodby triple cost of black-horn 209 @ 60 shots of 98 grains vs 5744 @ 170 shots at 45 grains. Then I began working on my Pedersoli 10 gauge waterfowl side by side, starting at 10 grains and chronograph up to 40 grains which clocked at 1150 fps with 1 1/2 oz of shot. Further by taking this approach I discovered that keeping the fps at 700-800 fps the shot kept a six inch pattern out to 50-60 yards discovering the best turkey load I’ve ever seen in my life! Now that you’ve shown me how smokeless works with caps it’s time to start working on my pistols @ 5 grains of 5744 in 2 grain intervals until I reach the velocities of the black powder. I haven’t tried any other powders but accurate 5744 is a wonderful blackpowder substitute with no temperature deviation or hydroscopic problems…great video!
would this also be applicable to a original Springfield navy rolling block ? I got this as a wall hanger with broken main spring and missing ejector I have repaired it and am looking for a light load to test integrity of firearm ,want to start light but don't want to stick a bullet in barrel ,
The rolling block has a very strong action, so I wouldn't be too worried to try it. A lot of rolling blocks were made chambered in modern smokeless cartridges in the late 1800s.
As someone who just got a 1884 Springfield whats the safe operating pressure/velocity(?) and any reloading books like the one in the video would you suggest?
Loving your channel. You say it as it is. There are lots of fudd purists out there. How dare you deviate from the cake recipe! I have used smokeless in my Dutch Beaumont, it uses the same bullet as a 45-70 and read to treat it like a trapdoor. I have used it in my Swiss Vetterli as well, it's a glorified 44 magnum. I still have to make some loads for my 45-110 and well if you wander the BPCR forums, they will crucify you for even thinking about not using BP.
Question, do you anneal your brass after you've shot it a few times to extend it's life? I've been annealing every 3rd or 4th use. I was told brass gets more and more brittle as it gets shot and annealing would help keep it from failing for longer. Do you know if it's true? I know you anneal when you resize, so I was curious.
@@Everythingblackpowder Thanks, it's such a habit now that I'll probably continue, I do get quite a bit of life out of the casings, so I doubt it's going to hurt anything.
@@donakahorsewhat are you shooting? For straight walled, lower pressure cartridges it’s probably more trouble than it’s worth. I’ve read accounts of people getting like 40 reloads from a piece of 357 or 38 brass. For bottle neck rifle you might get case head separation quicker than split necks if it’s for a semi auto like m14
1:58 If it does come from a book, what makes it "right"? Just never ever cross check between revisions in THE reloading manual, or even worse other reloading manuals ... Excellent video!
tjanks for sharing good info every reloading manual has a disclaimer and I have see n some questionable data you do have to use your best judgement and proceed with caution
i have been handloading since 1967, not that old i just started when i was 10 years old. i shoot 10gr. of unique in my 1901 made marlin 1893 in 38-55 with a 255gr. cast boolit of my design. never tried trail boss. i also use black powder some time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Like I say Jake, The Lord hates a coward .I do the same and cross reference loads and volumes and never had any, Issues and I have many many old Trap doors and Rolling Blocks .I will say use good modern Brass though . I even shoot the 43 Spanish and make my brass out of 375 H&H Cut form cut the Belt off and use a snap ring for extracting . Fun and Interesting to make an Old rifle talk again . I have a couple of R/B Remingtons in 12.7 X 44 R that is close to the 50/70 I use 50 Alaskan brass with no issues.
It's hilarious how people think a sample of smokeless powder that would barely be enough to light a candle somehow becomes an atom bomb when put into a black powder cartridge. Yes, it behaves differently and burns far more rapidly causing a pressure spike that must be accounted for when confined but there is a cap to the pressure based upon the amount of fuel or propellant material available. Whether that powder burns gradually or all at once, there is a cap on its power.
The real problem with smokeless is that once you exceed maximum design pressure the burn rate becomes unpredictable and pressures soar to dangerous levels. This is why in high intensity cartridges a few tens of a grain more powder can cause a huge pressure rise. What many people fail to understand is the importance of the expansion ratio between the chamber volume and the barrel volume and how it influences the pressure curve of the propellant. This is why you cannot deep seat bullets on high intensity pistol cartridges, for a given powder charge it can raise pressure to unnacceptable levels. On large caliber straight walled rifle cases the moment the bullet moves the volume available to accomodate the gas increases and thus keeps the pressure from reaching high levels. Of course this is all related to bore diameter, bullet weight, charge weight and burn rate of the powder. The Speer loading manual #14 has a good section on reloading smokeless for 45-70 trapdoor rifles, Remington rolling blocks, 1886 winchester lever actions and high strength modern bolt action rifles. They list the maximum pressures and its very informative, however a good chronograph is essential to make sure load velocities do not exceed those listed in the manual for obvious reasons. I've used this data to develop smokeless loads for my particular rifles and have had no problems after extensive testing.
"Does some government pamphlet say that it's safe to go out onto the grasslands, capture horses, and 'break' them for riding?" "Who said it's safe to explode refined petroleum in a cylinder with a movable piston inside of it to generate movement for propelling a vehicle?" Thank God that our ancestors weren't so cowardly that they were afraid to try new things.
I'm just going to say it. Why would anyone that won't use anything if it isn't documented in a book, go against the documented recommendation to not use it in a black powder firearm. I think people just like to bitch and find fault in other people's hard work. Thanks for your content.
People were wearing cloth masks to stop aerosol viruses and shutting down entire industries for months at a time. We live in an age where people are terrified of everything and even the most moderate risk is unacceptable. Everything we do has to come from an “expert.” We can’t think on our own.
Whilst these loads work, being in a country where litigation is very common now, I have seen ranges stating that you can only use propellants your firearm has been proofed for, and using anything else, will see you removed from the range and reported for shooting without insurance. Now whilst you dont have the issues we have with licensing of firearms, you do have insurance companies that will happily leave you high and dry if you give them a loophole. Just food for thought...
Some of them cross over, like Lil gun in ruger only 45 colt. Its close to 5744 burn rate. I wouldn't dare in a large case because I don't use fillers in fear of ringing the chamber. H4895, 5744 trail boss and a few others are reduced load position insensitive safe down to 50 or 60 percent case fill, and all the literature I come across says not to use fillers. Shotgun powders are always held to the primer so that's an overpressure no for me. Pro tip: unique has been a substitute shot shell powder for a while.
O MY! the time warp and Earths Gravity will KILL us ALL! RUN! Hmmm? What if this works in Others' just like this condition? Now I that have plenty of DIY or off the shelf BP? GOOD TO NO! Just P/U an old Filipino double action 45 LC and will need to work out a load? just have off the shelf ammo that came with her.
I was told over 40 years ago by friends that Accurate 5744 was a useful powder to have, and I do for that very reason. Good stuff Jake!
Thanks Mike
I started reloading old cartridges in 1975. I'm posting since there wasn't any good advice then about safely loading smokeless in older cartridges. The current manual at the time was Lymans #45. I almost disassembled an 1873 Winchester using that data. I don't trust the books since then. It has taken a lot of experience to load any cartridge with smokeless and confidence. Well done video. Thanks
5744 has been my go to for 45-90, 45-120 and 50-95 win. The loads have been used in modern production rifles and I do bump those loads up abit more in those rifles but generally not considerably. But in my originals the loads I used with 5744 have been at a safe pressure with zero issues. There are too many purists out there who will only use bp and will try to strike the fear of god into you for using smokeless but at safe pressures smokeless is completely fine and much cleaner to use. DuPont published data back in the day which if you used 40% of the original black powder charge of IMR4198 this would equal close to the same pressure as the bp load produced. I have used this method in 38-55 and it has worked great.
doing justice by doing videos like these keep them coming
Thank you
i came across this video and while it's a year old, i hope you're still watching. i'm performing the same iteration using 44 russian data to create data for a 44 henry using a modified 44 special case for winchester 66 rifles i have reconstructed. you are very insightful - i love your channel - and any thoughts you may have are welcome. the bs out there is overwhelming and companies are fearful of lawyers. keep up the good work
@@mikefedorko7387 glad to hear it. Thank you. I’ve heard that you can make 44 Henry center fire out of 41 mag brass trimmed to length and use a heeled based bullet but I don’t have any experience with that.
What's funny is the old printed Trail Boss information package used to tell you that it could be used safely in any firearm, in good condition. It then proceeded to explain how to develop a load for cartridges not listed. TB was my goto for subsonic 7.62x39 with 180-220 grain projectiles. It's a secret, don't tell anyone I used the Hodgdon guidance to develop them. One tip: when using powders other than TB, where you have a small charge in a big case, I usually put 1-2 grains of dacron fluff in the case to hold the powder against the primer. No, it doesnt make a compressed load, just makes the cargridge not position sensitive. Acts a little like a shot wad.
Yeah, the old Lyman 46th edition reloading manual shows loads like that for both 45-70 and 50-70.
I have had great results using AA 5744, Trailboss , and Unique. Great factual data , additionally have been subscriber of Reloader Mag/Ken Waters pet loads for over 40 yrs, Thanks for sharing this, another great video
Thank you
Been using Unique for years and it’s does very well in such a variety of cartridges and uses. Many complain that’s it’s dirty but I don’t mind cleaning my guns and when shooting cast anyway you got to expect a bit of residue 🤷🏻♂️
Shooter's World (Lovex) makes a powder they call Buffalo Rifle, which is manufactured in the Czech Republic. In their burn rate chart, it is roughly equivalent to 5744. In their description, they say "It has a burn rate optimized for straight walled cartridges such as 38-55 and 45-70." It is an extruded propellant. I intend to try some as soon as I can, since Trail Boss is no longer available. I have used a couple of other powders from them, and have found them to be very good and clean burning, and MUCH less expensive than the old standards that we have ben using for decades here in the US -- on the order of about $28-30/lb, when bought in one pound containers. All of the major outlets like Midway and Midsouth are starting to carry them.
Own an 1868 and an 1866 Allin conversion-both fireable. But as for using smokeless, I’ll be content to live vicariously through your videos.
Fair enough
@@Everythingblackpowder But I do love your channel. Do have a takedown 1892 in .357 so now considering all sorts of possibilities with BP.
As always. a great presentation, and Great well thought out information.
Thank you
You're doing the Lord's work. Please keep it up.
Will do. Thank you
I LOVE the trap door rifle. I really wish the design was pushed further with modern alloys and engineering. I was considering picking up one but fell in love with an amazing 45-70 browning highwall BPCR.
I know it is a Pita, but I get the most consistent results with Unique by using the Cream of wheat over the powder in my 1873, thank you!
Interesting
Great video. Sometimes you have to do some extrapolation to come up with load data. I figure that's part of the process, but I sure catch a bunch of crap from other handloaders about it. I probably have way more fun than they do!
Unique is my favorite smokeless powder for cast bullets.
"Flammable Dirt" hahaha, I really like that one.
Great video! While it is always good to exercise caution, and do circumspection, it’s my opinion that sometimes people are over cautious. I use IMR 4198 for my 1884 trap door, carbine, cavalry model, and the load I use is somewhere around 16,000 psi, which is well below the safe standard for that cartridge in Rifle. it also gives me really good velocity for the short barrel and a 350 grain cast lead lead bullet. Lee says the bullets are 340 grain but when I William they come out to 351 grains. It’s also a very accurate load. If someone wants to look it up it’s in the Hodgdon reloading manual for 4570 Springfield trap door data. Keep up the great videos.
Thank you
The dreaded "camera malfunction" strikes again! Thanks for the video. Applying sound logic is a lost art!
Great video! I should have said that for the Shooters World Buffalo Rifle powder, I use the 5744 numbers as it has the exact same burn rate and is a “rod type” single base like 5744. Results and velocities are almost the exact same. Feels very safe in my 2nd Allen convo 1866. Great to see the trapdoor love between your channel and 11 bang bang, keep them coming!
Thank you
I learned everything I need to know about reloading from one eyed Willy and no nose Ned. Four fingers Fred tried to learn me but his dexterity ain’t what it used to be.
Great job. I really enjoy this kind of comparison.
Thank you!
Thanks for the great content. It would be nice to know how chamber pressures are calculated. Thanks again.
Have you tried IMR-4198? I use English Black Powder Express doubles and singles, and it works good in the heavy hitters. The normal ratio is 40% or .40 X the black powder charge = grain weight of IMR-4198. I have used it in the little .45-70 as well, so perhaps the .50-70 would like it.
Interesting
5744 is fantastic. I go thru about a case or two of black a year, but on the flip side of that coin, I'll eat thru an 8lb jug of 5744 as well. With proper load development, it has never outperformed the accuracy of black on paper and at long range, but that's a different topic for a different day. The average trapdoor owner will never need match grade accuracy anyway.
Agreed
I stumbled onto your videos last week when I was trying to find some information regarding using FG in a 36 cal 1851 Navy. I have a pound of it and want to put it to good use. THANK YOU!
Barnes' Cartridges of the World has smokeless reloading data for the 50-70, including IMR 4198 and 3031.
I had a similar situation when I wanted to reload my M71 Mauser, cal 11.15x60, aka .43 Mauser. I initially used black powder, filled the case quite full, and seated the bullet to the crimp groove with finger pressure only (EDIT, not much powder compression) no sizing or crimping as I had no reloading dies. It was quite accurate. There's no published smokeless powder data for the .43 Mauser from the big reloading and powder companies, so I started with some light loads that were recommended for the 45-70... IMR 4227, IMR 4198, 5744, and SR 4759. They all work just fine in my old Mauser.
BTW here's the usual disclaimer... Use at your own risk... I have no control over the condition of the firearm, techniques used, components used, or other elements of the reloading and shooting process. As such I will not be held liable for the use of any data found in my comments.
Unique is a great powder that works for many odd things for people like us. Never used 5744 but will need to check it out.
Good stuff, Jake! I do find Unique a bit dirty (I was that guy - LOL) but I do like it a lot! It's been really consistent for me.
Thank you! We’ve been using that phrase ever since.
@@Everythingblackpowder I can't claim originality of the phrase, but I first heard it long ago, and I'm at least as old as dirt. LOL! Happy to share a smile!
I hope to encourage your research. After you have been at this for 50 years you will accumulate just about every reloading manual known to man going back to 1900. If you don't already have a copy I strongly recommend finding a copy of Phil Sharpe's complete guide to reloading. 1953 edition. Most of the powders he uses are out of production ,except black powder of course. Most of the book is the history and state of the art of smokeless powder manufacturing. I haven't seen a current book with such in-depth description of powder science. Great source of information for developing your own loads and how to not kill yourself.
The current edition of Lymans cast bullet loading guide has several good load suggestions for 500 grain bullets as well as their cast 435 gr bullet.
Keep up the good work.
Thank you
I meant to say those bullets I listed were for my 50-70, but that was probably obvious. Old age takes it's toll.
I knew what you meant
Hogdon does give loading info for this. I should have watched before typing this. That trailboss is some cool stuff. I am very surprised they called it quits on it. There are many handloaders using it for subsonic loads for all kinds of cartridges. A .221 fireball for example can be loaded down to 22 rimfire levels safely which is handy as hell for small game hunters.
I got an email from Hodgdon the other day. It’s not discontinued and they hope to have it back on shelves by October of this year.
Like your critical comparison study. As a newbie to shooting antiques I have read the “authorities “ and the pure black powder to prevent a catastrophe. You have taken a reasonable approach and I like the documented results. I would also like to see some commentary on the levels of residue for cleanup. Great job!
Thank you
I so old I'm still running 4759. Never had problems running smokeless in trapdoor or rolling blocks. Just be conservative.
Video didn’t suck so you got a like from me. Good video. My gunsmith recommended IMR 3031. Has a more consistent pressure curve ? Got home and looked through some old manuals I have, and there it was, load data for it.
Man ...9.5 of traiboss in my 1870 50/70 is very accurate, great video and made me re think trailboss, the rounds i made up were so fun im doing it again lol, 50/70, model 1870, 9.5 gr, 450 gr lee .515, with the lead im using closer to 460 gr weight
Excellent! I’m glad to hear it.
I had the same experience with my 45-70 with my 1873. I mostly shoot BP but I load smokeless for hunting incase it is raining.
Shot a lot of Unique loads in 50-70 and 45-70 in trapdoor some 50 years ago. Can't remember the loads. Used a card on top of powder and topped off with oatmeal. No compression.
Interesting. I’ve never tried using filler with Smokeless powder.
Excellent and logical content as always, the only thing I do differently is to place sponge or dacron over the small volume of nitro to keep it in place, the nitro looks very lonely down there in the bottom of a large case, all nitro for black cartridges were loaded that way, and it gives better constancy of ignition. Stay safe ! Chris B.
I have never tried using filler with Smokeless powder. Do you mind telling me what load you use that in?
@@Everythingblackpowder I use this mainly in 45 Colt with Bullseye nitro, black powder being frowned upon at the range, but OK to use in the garden range. But I also use it in 577Nitro Express as modern powders in that case do not give much volume even at 120 grns Chris B.
Interesting. Thank you
I like 5744 more than unique because the unique is easy to double or triple charge.
5744 is luckily very large. Even if you double charge it is easy to catch.
And by the way I get very accurate results in my 45-70 with it. Even medium range at 300 yards
Fair enough
I believe that LRM primers are specified for those large cases. Smokeless has a problem that it doesn't want to burn at really low pressures. Pistol powders like Unique seem to work better. Ball powders are very prone to blowing unfired powder at low pressures. The bad part is what if you did light it all? So look for a fireball or specks of grit down the bore. If so, move on to another powder. It's really old school, but Unique is always my starting choice.
That looks like a lot of fun, may have to get a replica. I burn a fair amount of 5744 but have come to prefer Herco to Unique.
I get a lot of my load data from Handloader and find that everything is safe and is as advertised.
Out of curiosity, how often (round count) do you re-anneal (if at all) your black powder cartridge cases (45 Colt, 45/70, 50/70) to prolong case life and delay neck splits. I use IMR 4759 and A 5744 for my smokeless 1873 Trapdoor loads, but BP is certainly a lot more fun. 🙂I've found that if I raise the muzzle to orient the powder onto the primer before leveling and firing my smokeless loads in big volume cases the spread is much smaller. This was a really well done " Presentation" and I loved it ❤DJ
5744 is a very forgiving powder, and most folks that have had issues with it were using a filler, which is completely unnecessary with that powder, as it is largely insensitive to position within the case. And while it is not needed with the load featured in this video, if one is unsure about a handload that is not published, call the powder company and talk to someone there. If I am using a load I've extrapolated from existing data, I call and ask a ballistician about it. Every time, I've come up with a safe load (after taking into account case volume, type of firearm, projectile weight and construction, etc.), and they were able to verify. In a couple cases however, they told me that while the load was safe, they had worked it out in their lab and the reason it hadn't been published was because it was either inaccurate, had wide velocity variations, was extremely sensitive to temperature variations, or left a lot of fouling. Sometimes it's something as simple as the cartridge is moribund...try finding modern load data for the 32 S&W, for example.
Love these videos, could u try a black powder 8mm Mauser? I've also been curious how It would preform
I'm huge fan of both powders. And extrapolating data lol
Reloader7 is also a good one for oldies. It can go from mild to wild. In .45-70 I load low 30's for antique arms and you can take it up to 40's for modern or even 50's for Ruger #1.
I’ve used it in 30-30 loads and it works swell.
I agree, some of my best jacketed bullet loads for my 45-70's were with Reloader7, great powder and very consistent even with heavy cast bullets.
10gn of Unique is an old go to in all 30 cal cartridges for reduced loads with cast bullets. I like it in my 8x56R with 225gn cast bullets. Consistent POI but far from same POA as any of my jacketed loads
Ever video of yours I have seen have been quit good. Thanks for the info. If you don't mind saying what is the longest you have had black powder rounds load up?
Great video. I'm curious: What lead mix do you use for casting your bullets for these rounds?
These are made from wheel weights.
Hey, Jake: are you saying Accurate isn't?😂
Those rounds are hammerin’ the target.
"Flammable Dirt" lol, one of the old regulars at our gun club told me that.
I want to see black powder .223/5.56 in a direct impingement AR-15.
Will it cycle and how bad will the fouling be?
Also any update on the cupio wood test?
I've had to do similar research comparing pressures of different published loads and checking many forums. I'm working up a load for a Webley mk.6 using an original style 265 gr. hb bullet in a 45 auto rim case. Not a lot out there on this.
Excellent. I wish I owned a Webley MK6
Be careful with the Webly, the 45 auto rim is just a rimmed 45 ACP but you can't use 45 ACP load data which is around 21,000 psi, its too much for the Webly which operates around 14,000 psi.
@@jb-xc4oh thanks, I do know that. I settled on a 3.6 grains of bullseye. I run 3.5 grains in my blaster .38 special loads. So it should be plenty low.
That sounds like a good load. I have used 45 auto rim cases too but I had to reduce the rim thickness in order for them to headspace properly. @@napluvr4173
I’m getting back into ball and cap revolvers for the first time in 40 years and I could use some advice. Black powder is like rocking horse shit here so I intend to make my own but in the meantime I’m stuck with using a substitute and I would like your advice on how to thoroughly clean my new pistol. Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Tom K
I e been wondering if I could run one of my .450 bush master shells taken apart in my knight bighorn .50 magnum rated bp.
Regarding compressing homemade black powder, and because I don't have a shop press, what is your opinion on spooning the moistened powder down a 1" PVC pipe and hammering it down with a wooden dowel and a rubber mallet? Would the small amount of water make it more stable to sudden shock?
I would think so but if you have a bench vice I would recommend using that instead
off topic question which burns cleaner unpucked or pucked powder? fine or course? i understand that pucked powder takes a smaller load than unpucked. from the research i have done highly compressed powder was not available until the mid 1800's. it seems like small grain uncompressed powder would be cleaner burning even thou it takes a little more per load.
One other consideration for using safe pressure smokeless loads in original Trapdoors. In all likelihood, all of the early Trapdoors with 'bad' steel were destroyed during their long and storied service life. This leaves those remaining as exceptional examples of the steel in use at that time.
Looking at the Hodgdon website I only see that Trail Boss is out of stock. Not out of production.
I have used 9.5g of Bullseye in 45-70 for Trapdoor
I actually got an email from Hodgdon saying that trail boss is NOT discontinued and should be back in stock in late October.
it is nice to see a manufacturer that is paying attention to what is being reported on their products. Even by relatively small channels.
Keep up the good work. Your videos don't suck. Since I have not made any mine may.
@@gotsloco1810 thank you
Interesting video. I understand your thinking, but isn't confident enough to do it myself. According to SAAMI, the Psi, and C.U.P. is equal at the 45/70. Is it the same with the 50/70?
Shooter's World Buffalo Rifle is supposed to be equivalent to 5744 (many comparisons on the interwebs) and was cheaper and more available prior to coof.
They don't seem to be importing it anymore. I've seen 5744 recently though.
This is one of the guns I always regret not buying theirs been a few for sale up here in Canada over the years. most of them “sporterized” I say it like that because at that time it would have been more then acceptable to make a sporting gun out of a inexpensive military rifle(my snider has the forend cut down). Another common one is the 1871 Mauser single shots again fairly common to see them sporterized both commercially and kitchen table type jobs. Brass for the .50-70 and .43 Mauser is much easier to get then ready made brass for the snider and martini Henry. Theirs still a good supply of dominion .43 Mauser ammo and brass available up here and the various new stuff.
Another Canadian here with similar tastes, I just love the old guns too. I've never come across a good original trapdoor and of course a modern replica would not be considered an antique firearm under Canadian law.
@@jb-xc4oh I have come across plenty not so many in the last few years but used to see lots of original .50-70 and .45-70 examples both full wood and cut down
Cut down ones used to go for about $450-$600 depending on condition. If I had one it would be black powder only and cast lead .
In my area lots of Martini Henrys, Vetterlis, Snider Enfields and 71 Mausers. @@cameronlamb7274
Flammable dirt😂😂😂 that’s good shit 🤣🤣🤣
I read information from a reliable ballistic source years ago it is not the pressure it is the pressure curve. Black powder has a slowly rising pressure while smokeless is very sharp.
The difference between a shove and a hit. I do use trail Boss and 5744 in my Mirrpku/Winchester '86 but that gun is a brick.
Yep
You’re the only one who has balls enough to talk about smokeless in blackpowder guns, I bought the CVA paramount 40 caliber rifle and was tired of blackpowder costing two to three time smokeless powder. So I bought a pound of accurate 5744 for $29.00 versus black-horn 209 $54.00 for eight ounces. I didn’t know anything about it so I started with 10 grains 5744, and worked up in 5 grain increments on the chronograph until I hit the advertised fps of the black-horn of 2740 fps, for me 45 grains of 5744 brought the 225 grain 40 caliber to 2777 fps. (Gun on top of bench, me under bench) Free at last, free at last, goodby 2 hr cleaning routine, goodby triple cost of black-horn 209 @ 60 shots of 98 grains vs 5744 @ 170 shots at 45 grains. Then I began working on my Pedersoli 10 gauge waterfowl side by side, starting at 10 grains and chronograph up to 40 grains which clocked at 1150 fps with 1 1/2 oz of shot. Further by taking this approach I discovered that keeping the fps at 700-800 fps the shot kept a six inch pattern out to 50-60 yards discovering the best turkey load I’ve ever seen in my life! Now that you’ve shown me how smokeless works with caps it’s time to start working on my pistols @ 5 grains of 5744 in 2 grain intervals until I reach the velocities of the black powder. I haven’t tried any other powders but accurate 5744 is a wonderful blackpowder substitute with no temperature deviation or hydroscopic problems…great video!
would this also be applicable to a original Springfield navy rolling block ? I got this as a wall hanger with broken main spring and missing ejector I have repaired it and am looking for a light load to test integrity of firearm ,want to start light but don't want to stick a bullet in barrel ,
I wouldn’t be afraid to try it.
The rolling block has a very strong action, so I wouldn't be too worried to try it. A lot of rolling blocks were made chambered in modern smokeless cartridges in the late 1800s.
The head area of the 50-70 is about 20% greater than the 45-70, so the bolt thrust will be that much higher for a given chamber pressure.
As someone who just got a 1884 Springfield whats the safe operating pressure/velocity(?) and any reloading books like the one in the video would you suggest?
Get yourself the Lyman cast bullet handbook, 4th edition.
Loving your channel. You say it as it is. There are lots of fudd purists out there. How dare you deviate from the cake recipe! I have used smokeless in my Dutch Beaumont, it uses the same bullet as a 45-70 and read to treat it like a trapdoor. I have used it in my Swiss Vetterli as well, it's a glorified 44 magnum. I still have to make some loads for my 45-110 and well if you wander the BPCR forums, they will crucify you for even thinking about not using BP.
Thank you. I’ve been scolded off of a lot of forums.
Do you have any data for a 50-70 for Sharps Rifle? I found some 50-100 brass for 4.00 a piece that I am going to trim down
I do not, but I could see the Sharps action being just a strong as the trapdoors. But that’s purely speculation on my part
Thanks!@@Everythingblackpowder
Question, do you anneal your brass after you've shot it a few times to extend it's life? I've been annealing every 3rd or 4th use. I was told brass gets more and more brittle as it gets shot and annealing would help keep it from failing for longer. Do you know if it's true? I know you anneal when you resize, so I was curious.
I have with brass shot shells and 577 snider brass but that’s all.
@@Everythingblackpowder Thanks, it's such a habit now that I'll probably continue, I do get quite a bit of life out of the casings, so I doubt it's going to hurt anything.
@@donakahorsewhat are you shooting? For straight walled, lower pressure cartridges it’s probably more trouble than it’s worth. I’ve read accounts of people getting like 40 reloads from a piece of 357 or 38 brass. For bottle neck rifle you might get case head separation quicker than split necks if it’s for a semi auto like m14
@@Almost_Made_It 50/90 sharps, the roll crimp ends up in the last groove. I'm sure it's necessary to anneal them occasionally.
@@Almost_Made_It I rarely reload smokeless, usually just the black powder cartriges, 45 colt and the sharps
1:58 If it does come from a book, what makes it "right"? Just never ever cross check between revisions in THE reloading manual, or even worse other reloading manuals ...
Excellent video!
I have seen Handloader Magazine loads more or less over the years. Often they are a bit heavier in the recommended by a tenth of a grain.
What powder is as Trail Boss powder. I know cant get any Trail Boss anymore. So what powder is the same as it???
None at the present time. Vihtavuori used to make an equivalent called Tin Star, but it was discontinued several years ago.
I got an email from Hodgdon saying that Trail Boss is NOT discontinued and they hope to have it on shelves as soon as October of this year.
tjanks for sharing good info every reloading manual has a disclaimer and I have see n some questionable data you do have to use your best judgement and proceed with caution
Thank you
i have been handloading since 1967, not that old i just started when i was 10 years old. i shoot 10gr. of unique in my 1901 made marlin 1893 in 38-55 with a 255gr. cast boolit of my design. never tried trail boss. i also use black powder some time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Nobody likes critical thinking these days.
Apparently
Common sense isn’t very common anymore.
Like I say Jake, The Lord hates a coward .I do the same and cross reference loads and volumes and never
had any, Issues and I have many many old Trap doors and Rolling Blocks .I will say use good modern Brass though .
I even shoot the 43 Spanish and make my brass out of 375 H&H Cut form cut the Belt off and use a snap ring for extracting .
Fun and Interesting to make an Old rifle talk again . I have a couple of R/B Remingtons in 12.7 X 44 R that is close to the 50/70
I use 50 Alaskan brass with no issues.
Excellent
Lol what do you know black powder out preformed
Sure enough
It's hilarious how people think a sample of smokeless powder that would barely be enough to light a candle somehow becomes an atom bomb when put into a black powder cartridge.
Yes, it behaves differently and burns far more rapidly causing a pressure spike that must be accounted for when confined but there is a cap to the pressure based upon the amount of fuel or propellant material available. Whether that powder burns gradually or all at once, there is a cap on its power.
The real problem with smokeless is that once you exceed maximum design pressure the burn rate becomes unpredictable and pressures soar to dangerous levels. This is why in high intensity cartridges a few tens of a grain more powder can cause a huge pressure rise. What many people fail to understand is the importance of the expansion ratio between the chamber volume and the barrel volume and how it influences the pressure curve of the propellant. This is why you cannot deep seat bullets on high intensity pistol cartridges, for a given powder charge it can raise pressure to unnacceptable levels. On large caliber straight walled rifle cases the moment the bullet moves the volume available to accomodate the gas increases and thus keeps the pressure from reaching high levels. Of course this is all related to bore diameter, bullet weight, charge weight and burn rate of the powder. The Speer loading manual #14 has a good section on reloading smokeless for 45-70 trapdoor rifles, Remington rolling blocks, 1886 winchester lever actions and high strength modern bolt action rifles. They list the maximum pressures and its very informative, however a good chronograph is essential to make sure load velocities do not exceed those listed in the manual for obvious reasons. I've used this data to develop smokeless loads for my particular rifles and have had no problems after extensive testing.
Flammable dirt. That’s funny. Internet
Ah yes TH-cam unsubscribed me again. This has been fixed
Ethan
I get that a lot
It's almost like it's ok to use facts and logic when coming to a conclusion
You are more than welcome to do it however you like
Does no one use QuickLoad? Perfect German Engineering for calculating any load
Good Video
Thank you
vihtavuori makes tin star. it is more or less the same type of powder as trail boss
I heard it’s discontinued
Love it when you troll the safety Nazis. Unique is my favorite powder.
It definitely works well
"Does some government pamphlet say that it's safe to go out onto the grasslands, capture horses, and 'break' them for riding?"
"Who said it's safe to explode refined petroleum in a cylinder with a movable piston inside of it to generate movement for propelling a vehicle?"
Thank God that our ancestors weren't so cowardly that they were afraid to try new things.
I'm just going to say it. Why would anyone that won't use anything if it isn't documented in a book, go against the documented recommendation to not use it in a black powder firearm. I think people just like to bitch and find fault in other people's hard work. Thanks for your content.
People were wearing cloth masks to stop aerosol viruses and shutting down entire industries for months at a time. We live in an age where people are terrified of everything and even the most moderate risk is unacceptable. Everything we do has to come from an “expert.” We can’t think on our own.
Thumbs up if you would like to see Jake take Ron Swanson out shooting.
😂
Whilst these loads work, being in a country where litigation is very common now, I have seen ranges stating that you can only use propellants your firearm has been proofed for, and using anything else, will see you removed from the range and reported for shooting without insurance.
Now whilst you dont have the issues we have with licensing of firearms, you do have insurance companies that will happily leave you high and dry if you give them a loophole.
Just food for thought...
Sorry to hear that.
I apologize for the wrong words in my comment below. I was using voice to text because I’m lazy, and I failed to proofread it before I hit comment.
But the book says i have to use crisco 🤣
Hahaha
😂
Easy solution write your own book
No angry comments from me
Other than you make me want to spend money on a trap door
Buy one before they get more expensive
5744 is NOT readily available. If you can find it, its over $70/lb.
This video is nine months old. As granddad would say.
“You’re a day late and a dollar short”
look at your shot gun powders,,,,,,been using them for years
Some of them cross over, like Lil gun in ruger only 45 colt. Its close to 5744 burn rate. I wouldn't dare in a large case because I don't use fillers in fear of ringing the chamber. H4895, 5744 trail boss and a few others are reduced load position insensitive safe down to 50 or 60 percent case fill, and all the literature I come across says not to use fillers. Shotgun powders are always held to the primer so that's an overpressure no for me. Pro tip: unique has been a substitute shot shell powder for a while.
@@PBVader buffalo brand is also a great alt
800x is one i have used for years no fillers but i use a wad sometimes...started with .577 snider....pretty big case@@PBVader
What, you used the wrong batteries in the camera and blew it up !! lol
FYI Unique is very dirty burning.
It’s flammable dirt
Gerrrrr,hahaha
O MY! the time warp and Earths Gravity will KILL us ALL! RUN!
Hmmm? What if this works in Others' just like this condition?
Now I that have plenty of DIY or off the shelf BP?
GOOD TO NO!
Just P/U an old Filipino double action 45 LC and will need to work out a load? just have off the shelf ammo that came with her.