@@AlcorSalvador What made it happen or put them in the course of that reality is giving up the timestone at that exact moment with Tony almost getting killed by Thanos. Strange already saw all the possibilities. He could have explained or just gave up the stone immediately, but that wouldn't have put them in the course of the rat rummaging around Antman's van...Like that meme where you go back in time, move a cup, then go back to you time and everything changing.
I like invincible too but what is so philosophical about that show? it felt like the classic zeolous overlord main villain and mostly anti-hero superheros doing morally dubious and unethical things from time to time, don't get me wrong though it is an entertaining show, gore is a little over the top though. I found it similar to one punch man than to justice league even though it borrows stuff from the latter.
@@magnaesca165 well I mean I was thinking like the son defeating his father archetype, how terrifying it would be for there to be someone with God like powers etc, there's a lot of deeper themes if you look closer.
More like The Justice League are all in their Warrior archetype while Stark and Dr. Strange already progresses to their Magician archetype which is the most important.
It's the classic DC and Marvel in movie format: Marvel: People who happen to be superheroes, DC: Superheroes who happen to be people. This is where there focus is overall. Example: Spiderman, so much is about his non-superhero life. batman: bruce waynes life? whose that? xD
DC is about the grandiosity of being a super powered being. Marvel is about humans with power. For me, DC are gods and Marvel are demigods, DC is perfection and Marvel is imperfection. Thats why is harder to do a movie or a comic for DC than to Marvel, the drama in DC must be in a cataclysmic / end of civilization scenario, in Marvel you can do it in a very small scale and would be relatable.
@@andyrebelo yet we don't care about Billy Batson's life outside of Shazam but we rather marvel at Shazam's feats despite being a kid on the inside. It's not terrible by any means but on the other hand, we care about Peter Parker just as much as Spiderman.
Doesn’t it all boil down to the order? MCU started their character journeys individually and then ended them with End Game while JL is essentially the beginning
I'm surprised Warner Brothers didn't take inspiration from DC Animated Universe from 1990-2005 or just adopt the New 52 origin of the Justice League right away then go into Solo movies
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458..... Warner Bros DID adopt the dark, nihilistic, pessimistic themes of the NEW 52. That's why DC failed. Marvel was smart, they adopted for the aesthetics of the "Ultimate Universe" but they kept the core values and themes of the 616 Universe. People wanted the "NEW FRONTIER" and the newest "Superman" and "Justice Society" animated movies as LIVE action. People who are saying "Oh I like the dark edgy Batman killing people" need to realize that they are the "minority', and outliers, meaning it was ruined for the cluster. This isn't some little indie cult classic franchise. These are National Staples that are entertainment Icons on the verge of being deified. If we want this dark edgy bullshit we'll watch IMAGE, DARKHORSE and VERTIGO properties. If I want to see a "what if Superman is evil" I'll watch "BrightBurn" and "Invincible". Follow? What you're proposing is EXACTLY what they did and why it failed. So why are you proposing it?
I think, the Snyderverse was going to reach martyrdom with the Batman storyline. His is meant to give his life so that the world does go Knightmare. Even joker mentioned it in the epilogue when he said that it's Batman's fault that he wasn't willing to sacrifice himself that they are in the situation they are in with superman succumbing to Anti -Life when Batman didn't protect Lois (i.e. becoming martyr). You're right about the symbolism with DC, they are always implied to be these larger than life characters and Marvel ones are down to Earth, which has been part of both brands for a very long time. Great video btw
This creates a nice parallel with the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In the Avengers, Steve Rogers calls out Tony Stark on his inability to put others above himself, to give up his life in the face of a bigger threat. Since in the MCU Cap is Iron Man's antithesis, it neatly lines up with the Knightmare scene, with an antithetical figure (Joker IS the Batman's opposite after all) calling out the protagonist on their personal flaw which they'll have to overcome.
@sunbro of astora True, i forgot to mention that. He doesn't sacrifice himself for Lois, but for the people of earth since it's his world. He did already in MOS.
@B-rad Skull neither would I be. It was just a theory back when EndGame just released, but now that Snyderverse's storyboards have been leaked, it's very well evident that MCU did in fact get it's hand on the JL script and copied Infinity War and Endgame off it.
@B-rad Skull Snyder's work has heavily influenced the CBM genre. From the artistic visuals and shots to God tier fights, everyone has taken something from them, making subtle changes so that the inspiration isn't noticeable. However people might hate him, they know he's one of the the most talented and original directors of this generation. Heck, even James Cameron and Chris Nolan sight him as an inspiration.
So, how come every time Tony's brought up as a martyr, it's traced back to the Avengers? Did everyone just fast forward through the final battle of Iron Man, when he was completely ready to sacrifice himself to bring down Stane?
Or when he was ready to die while blowing up the vibranium spire in Age of Ultron? That could have been lethal had Mark 45 armor been less maneuverable.
I suppose they kind of mean the context around the event. It’s like difference between the Spartans in 300 going to die Battle vs Jesus Christ going to die on the cross One is kind of like how Vikings love themselves stories of Valhalla and dying in battle while the other is like acceptance that you might just have been a cog in a machine orchestrated by a greater power and your death in itself is just as remarkable or even unremarkable as everything else in the machine
Because it was more a selfish sacrifice than one for a greater good. Tony was ready to die in the fight where he might already die as Stane was targeting him and to protect Pepper knowing that as long as he stopped Stane Pepper (and himself) would be safe. In Avengers he was ready to very much die for all of NYC, a whole bunch of people who he did not know, without the knowledge that it would defeat the aliens but simply to save lives. That's heroic martyrdom - it isn't being willing to die in a fight but being willing to die for the sake of people you don't know.
@sunbro of astora I mean yeah. Never said anything about Superman. Honestly, the Synder film's version of him is a mythological version (same with all the other heroes) making their motivations very shallow for the sake of the larger story and meaning they don't need to make a lot of sense either.
@@M567dk before he say you are my world he say This is my world he did that for every one that was the point he didn't know how be with humans how to make them accept him lois is the one that help with that cuz to him she is the best thing about humans
@@CodeAwesome28 before he say this he said "this is my world" and then he said "you're my world" like this is his world and Lois is the best thing about this world
Huh...Superman does sacrifice himself for more than just his girlfriend, after all he says ''This is my world'' after debating with himself if it was worth fighting for humanity during the whole of BvS, so he does move to the Martyr archetype. But yeah, then he goes back to Warrior.
@@petermj1098 after being alienated by the human race and being hunted down by Batman and Lex (who also kidnapped his mom), then not so far fetched. And in the end, he did fight for humanity. Several times.
@@MrAlvareishon Wow too bad the supposed superhero Martian Manhunter - an alien last of his kind who adopted earth just like Clark - allowed Clark to be chastised and lonely in BvS, and who was a no show in Snyders films. And I guess came to Batman after the battle makes it all ok lol And Superman isn't batman. Clark is raised to be optimistic about life and people not the opposite if you actually read comics.
@@petermj1098 same could be said about the Eternals in MCU and no one gives it too much importance. Also, if we can have injustice superman in the comics, sure as hell we can have a Superman that doubts himself a few minutes in the movie. Those complains are as weak as they come.
@@MrAlvareishon Lol Fans actually want to see an real heroic current day movie Superman not an evil or neutral on. And the eternals literally would cause more harm than good if semi immortal people who influenced the world secretly There is literally no harm or surprise for Martian manhunter coming out when humanity already knows Superman as a powerful alien.
What?! Superman didn’t kill Doomsday to save Lois. He went to save her from drowning and accepted the possible one-way ticket of attacking Doomsday with the Kryptonite spear. He sacrificed himself willingly knowing there was no other way. Even Lois begged him not to do it. He fully accepted his death. It’s the others that came after to get him as he was their last hope to make things work. The whole team in JL was willing to die as they went to fight Steppenwolf with the hope Superman would show up but not knowing for sure. Their plan did not involve Superman. So there were chances of them not returning from this mission as they established in the Batcave. And they DID all die, but Barry becoming a warrior decided to try one last thing to see if he could save the day, not knowing if it’ll work as he thinks about his dad.
In a sense Barry transitioned from warrior to magician because he saw his role laid out before him and was like "well, this is something only i can do that i've been avoiding."
Yeah. Wisecrack's analysis seems fundamentally flawed and cherry picked. Having said so, DC in general (the comics) has always had a "Gods among men" philosophy with its characters - heck, look at the typical JL lineup - Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg, Batman, Aquaman, Shazam, Green Lantern - barring Green Lantern, the rest are Gods in their own way with GL filling more of a magician role. So it makes sense if the DCEU pulls from some of DC's core of Gods among men. MCU has always been about "relatable" heroes from the start - their most popular comic book franchises, Spiderman, Fantastic Four and the X Men has always played hard into being relatable. Not so with DC.
I kind of agree and disagree with you at the same time. Your first paragraph completly make sense, but as the second, I felt like it was like a bit “death is a possibility, but we will work it out” like which is definitely a warrior architype thing even if they really died but brought back by Barry. Iron man kind of has to face his mortality in Avengers to become the martyr but he was not yet really a martyr when he nearly sacrificied himself with the bomb, but kind of with the ptsd he got doing it. So as it seems with the members of the JL they mostly still warriors that is even shown by Bruce’s dream about the future where as opposed to understand and accept his place or maybe sacrifice himself or something important he lets Lois die. And as it looks like that Aquaman gets in a fight with Darkside he cannot win and not able to achieve anything leaving Meera alone to figure out what to do. Also Barry just runs back to time trying to fix things which feels very warrior like. Do not really understand Superman’s part tho, he feels pretty emotionless rage which maybe can be martyr but does not really look like it.
For me, DC specifically SnyderVerse is more depicted on a bigger type of character, gods among men. The reality of SnyderVerse is to choose their battles and defend against the threat. Marvel is based more on human character where they discuss it's flaws and their mortality as a hero. Everybody makes mistakes and there are ways to redeem it.
I rolled my eyes when I saw what this video was about. But it was actually right on the money in a lot of ways. And it helps me appreciate the styles and philosophies of both of these cinematic universes.
@@andyrebelo Eh, not really. Snyder himself said he wanted to explore the great mythology of DC Heroes, comparing them to Gods. And he made ample Jesus- superman metaphors.
I remember hearing a saying about Marvel vs DC comics that seems to still hold true today. And I feel like it encompasses a lot of this video. "The Justice League is a bunch of gods trying to be humans. The Avengers are a bunch of humans trying to be gods." It's an oversimplification, sure, but it does sum them up pretty well I think.
@@navonmyhand7999 In MoS, a young Clark was told by his mother to make his world small for it to make sense so even if Superman says "This is my world. You're my world." he's literally going by that mentality.
@@greenside7539 the boy was overwhelmed with powers and the big world what do u want his mother to tell him and if he was really like that she would have told him Imagine urself bigger
You brushing off Supermans self-sacrifice as nothing but "save girlfriend" moment was an odd thing to do. Considering his whole arc in BvS is living with the consequences of being the superman. A choice his father warned him about in MoS. Humanity doubts him as he doubts himself but eventually fully assume his role and proves to the world that he loves humanity.
I really don’t understand how people missed the Batman element in the movie. It starts off showing his parents being killed and then we watch as Superman destroys a city and Bruce finds a little girl who parents were killed by the Superman and zodds fight. Clearly Batman is seeing Superman as a stand in for his parents murderer he is putting himself in that girls position. He trumps Superman up as this evil force that needs to be stopped like he is finally avenging his parents until Superman snaps him out of it with his mother’s name now Batman sees Superman as person and not a figure cause literally if you ever want to get through to Batman mention his parents the guy has built his entire life around one moment where he felt powerless to do anything. The movie is still very rough but I thought that aspect was nice.
@@Ytomany I think it is because people are too used to the MCU style where almost everything is spoonfed to the audience. Everything is explained to them. Zack Snyder gives us some clues every here and there like you said above that Batman saw the little girl and hearing his mother's name snapped him back to reality. Snyder didn't feel the need to explain that. The people who understood that love the film, the others are too busy nitpicking his movies to death, with bs like, "Superman shouldn't have killed Zod, hes Superman he always finds an another way" "It is wrong to put Superman into a lose-lose situation" "Batman SHOULDNT KILL I HATE SNYDER" "Lex Luthor sucks" even tho Lex is inspired from Birthright comics, "JIMMY OLSEN shouldn't have died" even tho that was a CIA agent not the real Jimmy. I don't blame the MCU for spoonfeeding things to their audience, I blame the audience who don't even want to understand something else other than their precious MCU.
I think this dismisses the "DC has made fewer movies" hole in the argument. Dr. Strange, sorcerer supreme, is obviously going to become a wizard a lot faster than most heroes. The other examples here are people like Iron Man who changed a great deal over the course of three solo movies, four avengers movies, Civil War, and Spider-Man Homecoming.
Did Strange change so fundamentally? I don’t think so... Strange does change quite a lot from his first movie, but he’s still arrogant, he’s still condescending and still clashes easily. Like Iron Man, they let go of their old ways, but their personality and attitudes change slightly with every movie, it’s almost imperceptible, until we go way back to the beginnings to see the change. The one thing Strange had going for him to push him to mature faster is the types of threats he’s dealing with. Tony went into overdrive after the first Avengers film from what he saw coming, but Strange saw it in his first movie, with Dormamu.
@@alexman378 I think you have to consider the time span of these films in their universes. Doctor Strange, the film, takes place over a year or more in universe, so it makes more sense for him to get there quickly cause the film jumps over a large period of time. With someone like Superman, you have Man of Steel, BvS and Justice League which all seem to happen within a time span of half a year or so (at most a year) in universe. I don't see someone like Clark Kent going from inexperienced warrior to a magician or martyr within that short a time span.
@@marocainforlife my bad, think I was focusing too much on the period of time between the events of Metropolis and Justice league and forgot the self exploration at the start of the film.
Small note: the epic of gilgamesh I would argue is about a transition from the Warrior to the Magician. Gilgamesh wanted to conquer death after his friend dies but even after getting the potion it was eaten by a snake and he ended up empty handed and after coming to terms with this failure and fate and his own mortality that he becomes a wise king.
Strange basically held Dormammu hostage, so it's still an instance of a hero using strength to get what they want. He didn't "talk it out." He forced an ultimatum.
You forgot the elephant in the room: The MCU was created by people who know and respect the genre (Feige, Favreau, etc.) whereas the DCEU was created by suit-wearing bean-counters at WB desperate to generate cash as quickly as possible.
Exactly, they put Snyder in charge when he doesn't even believe in the superhero genre. In the long run, the genre may end but when that time comes people will remember the MCU for ushering in the golden age of superhero movies, while the DCU will be remembered for "save Martha". As a guy who prefers DC over Marvel, it sucks to have to say this
@@Kevin-bj2hb Snyder doesn't believe in the superhero genre? Since when? Yes, his take is darker than the MCU's, mainly because he's a lot more worried by the misuse of power by people who are given special powers (best noticeable with Cyborg), but he clearly *loves* comics and is as much of a comic book nerd as the rest of us, if not more.
@@qwertyCandy Snyder may love comic books but he often takes away the exact opposite of the message the comic is trying to convey. Watchmen is the best example. He made a film that looks exactly like Watchmen the Graphic Novel but completely misunderstands what Watchmen is about and ends up flipping the whole thing on its head.
@@qwertyCandy he's often said that he doesn't think the genre will last long. That's why he wanted to fast track the whole thing because he had no intention of staying after making his 5 movies. This right here should tell you why he wasn't suited for the job because no leader would be looking for a way out just when they're getting started If Kevin Feigi had the same mentality we would have never gotten the Avengers and Endgame would have never happened Furthermore he's always taken shots at Marvel mocking them for making movies on b list characters like Thor and Ant Man His whole approach to the genre is one of the reasons to compromise the quality of his movies, BVS and JL feel like 4 different movies jammed into one just because he didn't have the patience Feigi did. It shows that he didn't think DC was worth his time
@@Kevin-bj2hb Alright, if he did say in some interviews that he wants to wrap everything up in 5 films and has no intention to go beyond that then it's a great argument and I would agree with you. I have to say that I still find it hard to believe though, especially when he recently said that he had plans beyond the other two Justice League films, like the backstory of Batfleck and Joker, Dick Grayson's murder, Wayne Manor burning down etc. It seemed to like it was WB who wanted to rush things to catch up to MCU as quickly as possible, not Snyder himself...
@@ayushmanrajawat2828 That’s the DCAMU. The DCAU is Batman: The Animated Series, Superman: The Animated Series, Static Shock, Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, Batman Beyond, and accompanying movies.
I wonder if there's a link between DC's celebration of the Warrior, one man who can change the world with enough strength (force) and determination, and Snyder's adherence to Objectivist philosophy.
Except Marvel started in 1939, with some down to earth heroes, and some real assholes that are still around. Edit: woops this posted into the wrong comment thread.
Wisecrack: "We're not here to say whether or not the DCEU is better or worse than the MCU" Also Wisecrack: Proceeds to show why the MCU is better than the DCEU
I'm a DC fan, but I feel like you have to be an actual "FANBOY" to say the DCEU is better than what Marvel has done. This says nothing about the characters or comics these films are based on, just which execs planned better.
Agreed. Those involved with the DC movies tried to do in just three movies what Marvel did over the course of 10 years. More so, they tried to rush right to the team up specifically. They didn’t make Iron Man and Hulk knowing they were going to get an Avengers movie. They just focused on making two good movies and threw little Easter eggs to the fans. It panned out DC has such great characters and I hate the fact that it didn’t pan out.
Def agreed, however wisecrack did a horrible job at not explaining that Marvel budgets absolutely dwarf what DCEU and Zach Snyder's was. Look up the difference, I dare you
DC holds a special place in my heart. I grew up with Superman, Batman and other DC characters. I had no idea who Captain America was, who Iron Man was. The only Marvel superhero I knew was Spider-Man. I'm a DC fanboy and i HATE how Snyder ruined the DCEU. The only people who love DCEU are hipsters who want to hate Marvel and be edgy, which is why they're so easily duped by DCEU shallowness.
Snyder’s DCEU is a story that was supposed to contain 5 parts. ZSJL was only half way through that grand storyline, thus it makes sense that the hero’s are only half way through their full transformation as characters.
What you are trying to frame in a more positive rhetoric is the fact that halfway through their journey, Snyder's characters still remain as boring as a world drained of colour.
@@elfsieben1450 nah fam. Snyder’s hero’s are unique, intricate, flawed hero’s, who are set on just trying to do the right thing while the whole world is pressed against them. Most of the character building Snyder’s given these characters is subtle and often looked over.
I feel Batman more of a martyr archetype or at least leaning towards it. He constantly gives things up to try to do more good. From various funds to help the people of Gotham to giving up time defending his city to find other heroes who can do more than he alone can and defend things past his own time as he feels age catching up to him. Viewing his own mortality has led him to become a mentor for new heroes and inspire gods to act.
@Lalo Landa he doesn't give everything up, he still needs money to keep his corporation running. If his company shuts down then millions would lose their jobs
@Lalo Landa he gives his body and blood to save Gotham. He may not sacrifice all of his money but he sacrifices a lot. The man had his back broken, plus multiple near death experiences and still came back. He lost his memories and became happy only to give that up to return being the Batman. Bruce constantly talks about how he's willing to give up his life and everything to save his city.
Wanda Maximoff is also a good example of a fully fleshed out character from innocent to (literal) orphan and then eventually to accepting her role as the Scarlet Witch and then turning into a wondered and warrior by the end of WandaVision.
@@kp1x they're talking about the MCU and the DCEU, otherwise known as the Marvel *Cinematic* Universe and the DC Extended Universe. They include the movies, not the comics.
Clark sacrifices himself in BvS as a means to save Lois and the good the world represents based on what Pa Kent's ghost told him( your mother showed me there was still good in this world, she was my world), the good helped him in accepting the bad. Also his arc isn't over yet, as for Batman he will be sacrificing himself and coming to terms with the role he has to play in saving the world in JL 2 and 3, same with Superman, Wonder Woman and Aquaman for understanding their place who unite the worlds(men, amazonians, themesquira) to fight against apocalypse. Iron man and Captain America have finished their character arcs, Superman and Batman haven't. The comparison will be fair when/if JL 2 and 3 come out.
Iron Man “sacrificing” himself in the first Avengers (and surviving) is enough to make him a martyr, but Superman actually sacrificing himself isn’t? That sounds pretty backwards to me.
Let me read Darkfrost’s mind: He hasn’t read comics and thinks superman is a perfect being with no struggles or problems and is the most powerful. He thinks Batman is just a rich person who beats up the mentally ill. He thinks Green Lantern is only one person and is just a bad character. He thinks Aquaman is a king that talks to fish and that’s it. He thinks Flash (Barry Allen version) is a moronic and stupid person. He thinks Green Arrow is just a billionaire that has OP arrows. And that’s just getting started.
@@shazam2044 while i do kinda agree on your opinion on superman i think maybe you shouldnt straight up assume Darkfrost thinks like that i mean they only mentioned about superman but didnt say anything about other DC heroes
"Marvel heroes are men playing gods and DC heroes are gods playing men". The parts they are playing get overshadowed by who they really are. DC heroes are as overpowered as Captain Marvel. You don't see either of them living a normal life after they answer the call to be a hero
Does guts from berserk fall into the warrior archetype by constantly fighting to escape death or does he fall more into the magician archetype and see his purpose and place in the universe as constant combat? Is he a martyr? Constantly sacrificing in the form of suffering and constant battle to protect others from that same suffering?
He is a struggler who fights against fate! Definitely a warrior although he has slowly been moving to the Martyr by sacrificing his own personal vendetta against Griffith to help out Casca and his crew.
Well, we see in Aquaman, Arthur chugging beers with his dad. Not mention Diana riding cars instead of you know flying. I think its more of DC being Gods being Human, while Marvel is Humans trying to be Gods.
I think the Snyderverse wasn't allowed to properly grow into the other archetypes. Like in the final film Batman was supposed to sacrifice himself to protect Lois from Darkseid.
@@jakubrejak1114 Not sure about the validity of this, at least in the case of the trinity. I would argue RDJs Iron Man was much more developed in his first film than Superman was at the end of Justice League. But that's just me
@@MrGooner9000 Well, unlike Tony, Clark didn't need a moral refinement. In his case, it was the matter of choice. Choice of belonging, of identity. Clark is forced to choose between Krypton and Earth. It's a slightly less serious change, but a development in character nonetheless. If we were to compare Stark's journey in IM 1 to an equally drastic arc, it would have been Wayne in BvS. Bruce's beliefs and perceptions get challenged and attacked throughout the movie, until they're broken with Superman's confession and completely shattered with his sacrifice. Batman is a new, healed, refined person by the ending, and it shows clearly in ZSJL.
@@jakubrejak1114 Totally agree with that comparison to Batman at the end of ZSJL. It was interesting seeing Bruce wake up in BVS with a dark morning tone, then he wakes up from that Knightmare with the sun shining and all that. It was a great transition of his character
@@jakubrejak1114 "Choose between Earth and Krypton" is a good topic to give Superman in his first movie. The problem is that Man of Steel does not handle it well. Clark was never given any reason to choose Krypton. We never see him struggling to make that choice. If the choice isn't hard on some levels the story doesn't resonate
@@al.Farabi one of the reasons which makes it hard to comprehend is the film being rushed. You just imagine how much they showed in 3hrs runtime, which includes Lex's complex master plan.
@@sohanroy7833 exactly. I don't think anybody understood the whole thing on this first watch. But if you watch it a couple of time, maybe there is a chance you can appreciate this movie which could've been understood better if it was made as a short series of about 50 episodes. I'm sure that almost everybody would've loved it.
@@kp1x well, You seem like a better fan because I watched it only once. My fav character has been Soup man throughout the movie but Lex is definitely second and he's 'unlikeably' clever.
Short Answer: MCU makes Objectively good movies with: cohesive vision to the universe, complete comprehension to every characters' core, and took their time building the franchise instead of playing catch up. DCEU have non of that. And this is coming from a fan who love both franchise.
You mean... How Snyder doesn't understand at all the source material he's adapting. Or... How Snyder thinks every superhero needs to be an unpleasant anti-hero. Or... How Snyder thinks that violence and darkness alone makes your movie "adult" and "realistic".
No. Snyders plotline was about how the characters we see don't come from nowhere. Take superman. His entire storyline taking the Snyder cut into account is a man slowly and painfully being forged by hardship and loss to be not just a normal guy with great morals and the powers of a god but to become superman.
Lol he challenges the characters morals like Superman where people did not except him in his world rather than ripping off and copying the same old Superman Superman returns:hated because it's like Matt reevs Man of steel:hated because not Matt reevs Wtf is wrong with you all
As some other critics compared in the past, you could remember as that symbolic difference between DCEU and MCU stems from their very original comics and their place in the evolution of comics literature. Almost all classic DC super-heroes were created still in the "Golden Age" of comics, when heroes were way more idealized and unflawed, while Marvel was already born in the "Silver Age" and several of its heroes were created even later, in the "Bronze Age". Unless a studio wants to do something radically different with a character, the way it was concepted in the comics can be very determinant as how it will be represented in a movie.
Spoilers: video is incorrect about Clark not fulfilling the Martyr archetype. “This is my world. You’re my world.” That line is Clark concluding a two movie arc about his purpose in the world resulting in his willing sacrifice: literal martyrdom emerging from a characters inner journey. EDIT: one could argue that that sacrifice also fulfills the video’s definition of Magician as well as Tony Stark’s sacrifice.
See the problem with that is all movie he has looked really depressed saving people and it seems like this was forced upon him because of his father . If he actually smiled more and was more optimistic I'd be more inclined to believe he realy loves the world and wants to save it and not just his gf who he seems to be the most happy around
@@dhakshkamra1553 you do realise that people could save people because they feel obligated to and not be too happy about it? If a truck is going to hit a child and the only thing i can do is to jump and push it out of the way and die....that doesn’t mean I actually want to die or like it. And secondly....it’s hard to smile and be happy when no matter how much you try people always blame you for something.
@@dhakshkamra1553 yeah. Not to make it a religious thing, but just like the garden of gethsemane story was jesus being depressed about his responsibility, Clark is weighed down by his responsibility until he realizes that choice is much simpler than he and others have made it out to be: once you figure out what ‘your world’ is, you simply do everything, EVERYTHING, you can to save it.... like a gosh darned martyr.
I think those are aspects inherited from the comics, to me DC characters have always felt more akin to a mythology full of godlike beings, while Marvel goes for you neighborhood friendly personas. Personally, I love that distinction, it gives each of them a particular identity. And seriously, they already stole every character from each other, if there wasn't a distinction this deep we would just read the same stories with different logos on their chests.
Do you know the big difference in his analysis between the MCU and DCEU? Marvel had more movies to bring out their characters full arcs. Superman basically only had one.
Exactly i love where the story line is going, slowly developing into the superman we know and love not just starting at this end of character development
@@britipinojeff but he does have an arc in man of steel and the Snider cut. The Same in BvS with his self sacrifice (but they completely cut most of his character arc out in the cinematic cut). WB is it's own worst enemy. In their attempts to be s bad marvel ripoff they loose their chance to be their own enjoyable thing.
More movies doesn't necessarily mean better characters. You could skip the majority of the sequel movies for the individual characters and go straight into the avengers movies and not miss anything.
WB want money frome Marvel fan and make what ever they want, they just dont care to DC fan (and what is DC). money money and money. and joker heath legger burn all. movie become trash and scandal come
Actually, they are both different because of the writers and direction of the original comics. DC has always been out of this world protectors who are extremely powerful, while Marvel has always been a lot more grounded to make stories that can be a lot more relatable. DC has and will always be hell of a lot more fictionalized and outrageous stories that establish great warriors. It’s just a matter of preference. Fans of DC are more likely into the idea of a fantasy world they can escape in while Marvel fans may have a similar feeling to that, but like the fact that they can relate a lot easier to the heroes. There will always be a division between these companies and their story telling techniques. Both have told great stories, but at the end of the day, DC has so many more iconic heroes and definitive stories, but they just don’t properly know how to fully display those amazing stories on the big screen while Marvel has done an amazing job at making lesser known heroes and stories and make them so much bigger and better than they ever were. It just comes down to the writing in the end (in both the comics and film).
Love their work but they're just being lazy if they're doing it for "realism" or bleaker tone. Just tell the set department to make sets with less color, no need to drain the colors out the film.
‘Feel’ real being the key word. A film showing the work of being real would have had to actually acknowledge the many reasons that the Accord has actual justifiable reasons, instead of just framing it as inherently wrong and unjustifiable to restrict the actions of a team of unilateral human WMDs including two literal terrorists they are presumably shielding from prosecution.
It wasn't just the Russos, Gunn and even Sweadon did the same. They believed in too much color being unrealistic and music should just be background noise and not part of the scenes.
Its probably why Marvel is much popular since the characters where human and well developed and it was a culmination of the greatness of their story while DC always felt to me like they where showing off and a big display of symbolism
I agree with the statement was super confused on word appraisal coming from with the Snyder cut I felt it was too long and that's some problems I felt Guardian of the Galaxy 2014 in 2 hours what's your fail to do in 4 hours
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 Same, the amount of people defending not just the Snyder cut, but the DCEU in general, has me concerned. Marvel movies aren’t perfect, but at least they had a plan.
Me watching Josstice League: Wow, this is an underdone, trying but failing, mess Me watching Snyder Cut: That was a fine piece of cinema. More of that please.
I’d say both mediums tackle the idea of a Forever War, but while DC has singular demigods fighting eternally, Marvel ties it to symbolic figures. Batman will always be Bruce Wayne in the DCEU, but Captain America can be Steve Rogers, Sam Wilson, John Walker, etc. Echoing what you said, it turns a mythic battle into a generational conflict.
As usual, a well-crafted, well researched and expertly executed breakdown of Marvel's and DC's respective comic book universes and why Marvel is inarguably better in every conceivable way. Marvel's far from perfect but there's no question of who has a better collection of connected films (and now acclaimed TV shows). While Marvel prepares for their 4th phase of movies that will connect the X-Men and Fantastic Four franchises -- I can't wait to see who they cast as Wolverine!!! -- the film division of DC has been sold off, which would could mean the cancelation/postponement of many projects already on the board. I'd be surprised if the Flash movie -- the movie that was supposed to wipe the slate clean -- will be delayed/canceled...again.
That's always been the point of the DCEU. It's always been about larger than life/unkillable characters and gods among men. The point of the DCEU is that the heroes never really die.
We’re ignoring Ted Kord, Maxwell Lord, Atom, Hawkwoman, Abin Sur, Rorschach (the first one), Dove and lots more? DC isn’t just Cyborg, Batman, Wonder Woman, Superman, Aquaman and Flash.
@@shazam2044 My statement is an over-generalization and certainly false when applied to the DC universe as a whole, but this video is specifically related to the Cinematic Universe (DCEU), where I think my statement is fairly applicable/accurate. I will edit my comment to more clearly represent my opinion.
Nice video. Also worth noting is that the two comic companies set their characters on this path initially too. DC has always been about extensive lineage and timeless god like figures. Marvel wanted to create relatable heroes tied to our world like Spidey and the X-Men. If anything I'm glad that DC may FINALLY be starting to grasp this in their cinemaverse. (Being a DC fan has been -suffering- all around over the last decade). Both companies have great, well rounded characters but they have different beats and arcs that should be developed with a developed awareness of that character's journey and characterization to get the best result.
When Superman died to doomsday wasn’t it for the world? I mean yeah for Lois to because she’s part of that world, but he purposely sacrificed himself for everyone. It wasn’t even an accidental death, he assumed he’d be dying.
But he says to lois “you’re my world.” So since he cares about lois & she lives on the planet...saving the entire world is a byproduct. It goes back to when ghost pa kent tell hims that martha reminds him about the good of humanity. So this gives clarks the idea that humanity itself only matters because the woman he loves shows him how good humanity can be. It goes back to the Ayn Rand idea of self interest or objectivism. One’s own happiness or personal interest.
He didn't know "doomsday" was gonna kill him. Was willing to die to protect lois ( any man would die to protect his family) but he didn't expect to die
@@brumtownmiller6130 watch the movie again. Doomsday stabbed him and what did Superman do, in order to fully stab doomsday with the spear he moved forward even more while Doomsday's bone literally stabbing his chest(that's what killed Superman, the initial stab on Superman is not that severe, the process of Superman moving forward made it go deep and made it fatal). He was fully aware that he is going to die and willingly did that.
@Sethumathavan Mogan I just watched it again! Your wrong, he was gonna die anyway, the whole in his chest was huge, he just died quicker by making the wound worse. The initial would would of killed supes as soon as he pulled doomsday spikes out. He should of through the spear then punched the spear once it hit doomsday!
@@brumtownmiller6130 my point still stands. He was willing to die for the world. He knows that he is going to die and yet he still sacrificed himself to save the Earth.
One can argue that Batman in DCU, that Batman has had his martyr and magician arc in JL. He was willing to die to resurrect Superman and submits to larger scheme of things with the knowledge of Darksied invasion. Essentially undergoing the martyr and magician phase.
If Snyder started the MCU: 1st phase: Iron man - Captain America: Civil war - Gaurdians of the galaxy - Captain America - Avengers. 2nd phase: The incredible Hulk - Thor - Dr Strange - Avengers: Infinity war. 3nd phase: Black Panther - Captain Marvel - Avengers: Endgame.
I WILL NEVER STOP Please analize the Cadmus arc form justice league unlimited. That arc is awesome: it is like civil war, injustice, batman tas, superman tas, the incredibles, watchmen, the government, good/evil, authority. The question steal the hole show. The moment when he confronts superman or when he tried to kill LL is really deep and beautiful written.
I understand the other ones, but civil war? really? That was one of the worst crossover comics in marvel. All the characters were out of character and the conflict ended in a super anticlimactic way.
I believe that the DCEU, given as many films as the MCU, will have some characters eventually make their way through to the wizard phase of character development. They just need to make their films good enough that the fans are willing to hang on that long for it.
DC is about gods protecting and learning to embrace their humanity and Marvel is about humans learning the responsabilities and consequences that come with becoming gods.
Also, Superman definitely intended to sacrifice himself to kill doomsday in BvS. He knew being in close proximity to the kryptonite spear would mean any blow from doomsday would be likely to kill him, and we see his acceptance of this with his heartfelt goodbye to Lois right before plunging the spear. He even says "This is my world" meaning he's accepted that Humanity, despite their cynical nature and unwillingness to accept Superman as just a guy trying to do good, is worth saving even if it means giving his own life.
I would honestly also say I don't think I would consider superman in the Warrior phase even in most of BvS. Throughout MoS he makes the decision to fight for earth, but he's still pretty unsure of himself, and he's definitely unsure of himself in BvS, questioning if he can truly help (Convo with ghost Pa Kent). In that final battle I think we see him go through the rest of the phases. He makes a clear decision to risk his life to doomsday and literally dies for a cause, showing that power can be innocent and that all humans have the potential for good. Contrast that decision to sacrifice himself to doomsday with his uncertainty in MoS on whether or not he should turn himself in to Zod for humanity. He even says he doesn't know if he can trust humanity. Well, in BvS he decides that even if he can't trust them, they are worth saving.
no. attenpting to simplify-the exact same genre with two companies is stupid as fuck. i could just mention thor from marvel and vigilante from DC. one is a god in marvel the other is a dude with guns. Dc/marvel =99.9999% of the same ideas and motivs. Even shonen anime is the same as comics. just small cultural differences.
As a long time marvel fan I come to understand the fundamental differences between DC film universe and the Marvel one, since both of these companies have told nearly a century’s worth of stories of their trade marked heroes, since the late 1930’s to early 1940’s DC comics has established itself as the company that uses the super hero archetype to mostly tell stories of people and groups of individuals trying to change their respective world and it’s symbolic ideals of it. While Marvel on the other hand establishing most of their iconic characters in the early 1960’s to the mid 1970’s tell humanistic stories of everyday people in our own world on using their powers and abilities to confront realistic issues and problems that face us as people today and the unforeseen future. In short DC is more based on hero’ trying to become ideals in a symbolic of a view on their fictional universe, while Marvel focus on realism in both their hero’s and the universe around them.
I don't get why it's necessary for the warrior archetype to become the magician. The theory is solid, but I don't see it as a necessity for all archetypes to end up magician.
@@Javierm0n0 Don't get me wrong, I enjoy his take on Watchmen, but if you compare his movie adaptations to the original comics/movies they're based on, Zack consistently sorta misses the point/philosophical identities of the originals, adding his own objectivist take to each one where that was never the case.
@@youssefabbas5875 When you're adapting someone elses stories and/or characters you should have some idea what they're about. Snyder has zero understanding of the source material..
the guy is obsessed with slo-mo and out of focus shots, while ignoring any kind of compelling story or dialogue when everything is in the service of being epic as possible, nothing feels epic at all in the end it’s like a guitar player going on stage and playing fast as humanly possible for an hour straight, it eventually becomes tedious and exhausting
I think it's kind of fitting that the movies turned out this way. The original DC heroes weren't that well-defined when they first came out. They were basically just all about their powers. Most of the Marvel characters didn't come out until much later, and they were written deliberately to be more human and relatable.
honestly, Snyder is the wrong person for the job of coordinate and control a unified universe, being one of the director? Yes but him having the reign? Terrible mistake
@@freshnoodles2108 Behold, Zack Snyder is coming with the art, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. ❤
something i noticed is how in DC the superheroes are the characters. bruce wayne is not the main character, superman is clark kent is not the main character, superman is. but iron man is not the main character, tony stark is
Speaking of Snyder, are you guys going to look at Army of the Dead? With all the symbolism, religious and mythological allusions, as well as the hints at aliens, cyborgs and alternate realities, I feel like there's something deeper going on.
Wouldn’t Batman in the DCEUs established history be a magician when he realizes he cannot stop doomsday or steppenwolfe or darksied alone and therefore actually accepts the help of others and actually brings them all together as if he was destined to since superman was dead and the whole using your brain over brawn idea is literally Batman’s style he didn’t fight Superman or create the kryptonite spear that kills doomsday out of brawn and punching alone he used strategy with the kryptonite. And unlike doctor strange he doesn’t have the ability to see 14 million potential futures he’s just a man. And while I know the DCEU and the animated universe aren’t the same. In the animated universe when flash causes the flashpoint paradox and comes back most of the league doesn’t believe flash
@sunbro of astora To support your point. Tony Stark supporting and mentoring Peter Parker (going with the accords, etc.) goes into his 'martyr phase' but Bruce creating the JL and working with "kids" in his mind like Cyborg and Flash is never mentioned. Like I saw someone say, a lot of this has to do with the order of the DCEU movies involving teams and then delving into the individuals so they can't do a lot of personal development for everyone, but even then the ones with their own personal movies aren't as dependent on storytelling as the 'warrior' as the video presumes, though it was insightful.
@@navonmyhand7999 what work does Batman do with Cyborg and Flash? I don’t see him doing any mentoring or development with him. Don’t see him helping them overcome their demons, solve their personal issues or become better versions of themselves. I just see him recruiting to build a team of warriors to stop an opponent. Ie armies win fights that individual warriors don’t. Would be great to see him do some of that as he has done in the animated universe.
Wisecrack: Tony Stark mentoring Spiderman = Martyr archetype Tony Stark sacrificing himself to save the world = Magician archetype Me: I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.
Good take. Probably a big reason why I prefer MCU to DC. Marvel's movies take place in the real world where themes and symbolism are not as clearly laid out but families can watch the films and take different things from them based on their age and knowledge. WB's DC movies, so far, have taken place in a highly stylized reality where the themes and symbolism is bold and cleanly laid out and these films work very well for adolescents who are still trying to understand the world and their place in it.
@@lye27 no offense bro but quit lying to yourself aquaman in the dceu had the personality of a drunk biker/rocker boy. Plus Thor’s first two movies were very serious like Shakespeare. Aquamans first movie out the gate was very goofy and colorful. Nothing wrong with that because I liked aquaman
I think I've heard someone mentioned something regarding this that I think best sums it up. "If Marvel is about Humans becoming Gods, then DC is about Gods Becoming Human". In relation to this, Marvel's heroes start out human (fearing death and inevitability) and becoming Gods in some ways (All knowing in the sense that there is no escape and to accept death). Where as DC is Gods (Figures who see themselves as being above others) learning to be more Human (accept that they don't know all the answers nor have the power to stop the inevitable).
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Y'all ever think about how, in the MCU, half of all life in the universe would have ended if Doctor Strange had taken a road safety course?
The universe could have also ended had the rat inside Antman's truck had something to eat before
@@allenqueen This is true, The Rat was literally the one key piece that allowed them to Win out of all the Timelines, Canonically.
All of life on earth would have been wiped out more than a handful of times if the movies went any differently
@@AlcorSalvador What made it happen or put them in the course of that reality is giving up the timestone at that exact moment with Tony almost getting killed by Thanos. Strange already saw all the possibilities. He could have explained or just gave up the stone immediately, but that wouldn't have put them in the course of the rat rummaging around Antman's van...Like that meme where you go back in time, move a cup, then go back to you time and everything changing.
@@arthand7672 well yeah, and also allowing starlord to be a derp is part of the reason they succeeded
Can we get something like a Philosophy of "Invincible"? That'd be amazing.
Considering the show's popularity and concepts, they're probably working on it
@@thenyanrobot4565 I hope so too
Bring Jarrod back out of retirement for it.
I like invincible too but what is so philosophical about that show? it felt like the classic zeolous overlord main villain and mostly anti-hero superheros doing morally dubious and unethical things from time to time, don't get me wrong though it is an entertaining show, gore is a little over the top though. I found it similar to one punch man than to justice league even though it borrows stuff from the latter.
@@magnaesca165 well I mean I was thinking like the son defeating his father archetype, how terrifying it would be for there to be someone with God like powers etc, there's a lot of deeper themes if you look closer.
*What I learned from this video:*
Wonder woman is considered a Warrior.
Dr. Strange is considered a Magician.
More like The Justice League are all in their Warrior archetype while Stark and Dr. Strange already progresses to their Magician archetype which is the most important.
@@geekboylee8727 You missed the joke I was making. Lol
Lmao, nice
both figuratively and literally
@@geekboylee8727 r/woooosh
It's the classic DC and Marvel in movie format: Marvel: People who happen to be superheroes, DC: Superheroes who happen to be people. This is where there focus is overall. Example: Spiderman, so much is about his non-superhero life. batman: bruce waynes life? whose that? xD
That's not exactly right.
DC is about the grandiosity of being a super powered being. Marvel is about humans with power. For me, DC are gods and Marvel are demigods, DC is perfection and Marvel is imperfection. Thats why is harder to do a movie or a comic for DC than to Marvel, the drama in DC must be in a cataclysmic / end of civilization scenario, in Marvel you can do it in a very small scale and would be relatable.
@@hugogodinez2477
Shazam literally exists
@@andyrebelo yet we don't care about Billy Batson's life outside of Shazam but we rather marvel at Shazam's feats despite being a kid on the inside. It's not terrible by any means but on the other hand, we care about Peter Parker just as much as Spiderman.
@@izs6946 except the focus of Shazam was on billy batson and the family.
It's deeper than the movies. DC is a paragon comic style and Marvel is interpersonal comic style.
This is very true.
What is a 'paragon' comic style?
Well put!
@@SML01 same question
@@SML01 DC always has a "gods among men" sense. Marvel has a more of time outside of the mask.
Doesn’t it all boil down to the order? MCU started their character journeys individually and then ended them with End Game while JL is essentially the beginning
I'm surprised Warner Brothers didn't take inspiration from DC Animated Universe from 1990-2005 or just adopt the New 52 origin of the Justice League right away then go into Solo movies
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 i mean they kinda did go with the New 52 origin just with Steppenwolf instead of Darkseid proper.
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 the entire early JL grouping is actually adapting the New 52
Marvel hit homeruns with every movie.
DC is too busy staring at the stands and the audience to notice they struck out.
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458..... Warner Bros DID adopt the dark, nihilistic, pessimistic themes of the NEW 52.
That's why DC failed.
Marvel was smart, they adopted for the aesthetics of the "Ultimate Universe" but they kept the core values and themes of the 616 Universe.
People wanted the "NEW FRONTIER" and the newest "Superman" and "Justice Society" animated movies as LIVE action.
People who are saying "Oh I like the dark edgy Batman killing people" need to realize that they are the "minority', and outliers, meaning it was ruined for the cluster.
This isn't some little indie cult classic franchise. These are National Staples that are entertainment Icons on the verge of being deified.
If we want this dark edgy bullshit we'll watch IMAGE, DARKHORSE and VERTIGO properties.
If I want to see a "what if Superman is evil" I'll watch "BrightBurn" and "Invincible".
Follow?
What you're proposing is EXACTLY what they did and why it failed. So why are you proposing it?
I think, the Snyderverse was going to reach martyrdom with the Batman storyline. His is meant to give his life so that the world does go Knightmare. Even joker mentioned it in the epilogue when he said that it's Batman's fault that he wasn't willing to sacrifice himself that they are in the situation they are in with superman succumbing to Anti -Life when Batman didn't protect Lois (i.e. becoming martyr). You're right about the symbolism with DC, they are always implied to be these larger than life characters and Marvel ones are down to Earth, which has been part of both brands for a very long time. Great video btw
This creates a nice parallel with the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In the Avengers, Steve Rogers calls out Tony Stark on his inability to put others above himself, to give up his life in the face of a bigger threat. Since in the MCU Cap is Iron Man's antithesis, it neatly lines up with the Knightmare scene, with an antithetical figure (Joker IS the Batman's opposite after all) calling out the protagonist on their personal flaw which they'll have to overcome.
@sunbro of astora True, i forgot to mention that. He doesn't sacrifice himself for Lois, but for the people of earth since it's his world. He did already in MOS.
@B-rad Skull Geoff Johns stole the Snyderverse's script, and gave it away to Kevin Feige.
@B-rad Skull neither would I be. It was just a theory back when EndGame just released, but now that Snyderverse's storyboards have been leaked, it's very well evident that MCU did in fact get it's hand on the JL script and copied Infinity War and Endgame off it.
@B-rad Skull Snyder's work has heavily influenced the CBM genre. From the artistic visuals and shots to God tier fights, everyone has taken something from them, making subtle changes so that the inspiration isn't noticeable.
However people might hate him, they know he's one of the the most talented and original directors of this generation. Heck, even James Cameron and Chris Nolan sight him as an inspiration.
So, how come every time Tony's brought up as a martyr, it's traced back to the Avengers? Did everyone just fast forward through the final battle of Iron Man, when he was completely ready to sacrifice himself to bring down Stane?
Or when he was ready to die while blowing up the vibranium spire in Age of Ultron? That could have been lethal had Mark 45 armor been less maneuverable.
I suppose they kind of mean the context around the event. It’s like difference between the Spartans in 300 going to die Battle vs Jesus Christ going to die on the cross
One is kind of like how Vikings love themselves stories of Valhalla and dying in battle while the other is like acceptance that you might just have been a cog in a machine orchestrated by a greater power and your death in itself is just as remarkable or even unremarkable as everything else in the machine
I'm sure it's because no one remembers that.
Because it was more a selfish sacrifice than one for a greater good. Tony was ready to die in the fight where he might already die as Stane was targeting him and to protect Pepper knowing that as long as he stopped Stane Pepper (and himself) would be safe. In Avengers he was ready to very much die for all of NYC, a whole bunch of people who he did not know, without the knowledge that it would defeat the aliens but simply to save lives. That's heroic martyrdom - it isn't being willing to die in a fight but being willing to die for the sake of people you don't know.
@sunbro of astora I mean yeah. Never said anything about Superman. Honestly, the Synder film's version of him is a mythological version (same with all the other heroes) making their motivations very shallow for the sake of the larger story and meaning they don't need to make a lot of sense either.
8:58 would’ve been a great time to include the Ancient One literally telling Stephen “It’s not about you.”
Sylvie to Loki: "This isn't about you."
6:28 one actually superman chose to sacrifice him self not just for lois but for every one
YEAH....I'm going with NO on that one as he cared more for Lois and his mom, than the entire world that shun him away.
@@M567dk but ultimately saved the world because if doomsday still alive..... you know
@@M567dk before he say you are my world he say This is my world he did that for every one that was the point he didn't know how be with humans how to make them accept him lois is the one that help with that cuz to him she is the best thing about humans
@@deadman-zc5ro - “…She is his world”
@@CodeAwesome28 before he say this he said "this is my world" and then he said "you're my world"
like this is his world and Lois is the best thing about this world
I believe the preferred term is "Master of the Mystic Arts"
Huh...Superman does sacrifice himself for more than just his girlfriend, after all he says ''This is my world'' after debating with himself if it was worth fighting for humanity during the whole of BvS, so he does move to the Martyr archetype. But yeah, then he goes back to Warrior.
Yeah nothing screwed up about someone who supposed to be the greatest superhero questioning if he should fight for humanity lol
@@petermj1098 after being alienated by the human race and being hunted down by Batman and Lex (who also kidnapped his mom), then not so far fetched. And in the end, he did fight for humanity. Several times.
@@MrAlvareishon Wow too bad the supposed superhero Martian Manhunter - an alien last of his kind who adopted earth just like Clark - allowed Clark to be chastised and lonely in BvS, and who was a no show in Snyders films. And I guess came to Batman after the battle makes it all ok lol
And Superman isn't batman. Clark is raised to be optimistic about life and people not the opposite if you actually read comics.
@@petermj1098 same could be said about the Eternals in MCU and no one gives it too much importance. Also, if we can have injustice superman in the comics, sure as hell we can have a Superman that doubts himself a few minutes in the movie. Those complains are as weak as they come.
@@MrAlvareishon Lol Fans actually want to see an real heroic current day movie Superman not an evil or neutral on. And the eternals literally would cause more harm than good if semi immortal people who influenced the world secretly
There is literally no harm or surprise for Martian manhunter coming out when humanity already knows Superman as a powerful alien.
What?! Superman didn’t kill Doomsday to save Lois. He went to save her from drowning and accepted the possible one-way ticket of attacking Doomsday with the Kryptonite spear. He sacrificed himself willingly knowing there was no other way. Even Lois begged him not to do it. He fully accepted his death. It’s the others that came after to get him as he was their last hope to make things work.
The whole team in JL was willing to die as they went to fight Steppenwolf with the hope Superman would show up but not knowing for sure. Their plan did not involve Superman. So there were chances of them not returning from this mission as they established in the Batcave. And they DID all die, but Barry becoming a warrior decided to try one last thing to see if he could save the day, not knowing if it’ll work as he thinks about his dad.
In a sense Barry transitioned from warrior to magician because he saw his role laid out before him and was like "well, this is something only i can do that i've been avoiding."
Yeah. Wisecrack's analysis seems fundamentally flawed and cherry picked.
Having said so, DC in general (the comics) has always had a "Gods among men" philosophy with its characters - heck, look at the typical JL lineup - Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg, Batman, Aquaman, Shazam, Green Lantern - barring Green Lantern, the rest are Gods in their own way with GL filling more of a magician role.
So it makes sense if the DCEU pulls from some of DC's core of Gods among men.
MCU has always been about "relatable" heroes from the start - their most popular comic book franchises, Spiderman, Fantastic Four and the X Men has always played hard into being relatable. Not so with DC.
Yes yes a thousend times yes, i was thinking the same thing
I kind of agree and disagree with you at the same time. Your first paragraph completly make sense, but as the second, I felt like it was like a bit “death is a possibility, but we will work it out” like which is definitely a warrior architype thing even if they really died but brought back by Barry. Iron man kind of has to face his mortality in Avengers to become the martyr but he was not yet really a martyr when he nearly sacrificied himself with the bomb, but kind of with the ptsd he got doing it. So as it seems with the members of the JL they mostly still warriors that is even shown by Bruce’s dream about the future where as opposed to understand and accept his place or maybe sacrifice himself or something important he lets Lois die. And as it looks like that Aquaman gets in a fight with Darkside he cannot win and not able to achieve anything leaving Meera alone to figure out what to do. Also Barry just runs back to time trying to fix things which feels very warrior like. Do not really understand Superman’s part tho, he feels pretty emotionless rage which maybe can be martyr but does not really look like it.
This comment analyzed DCEU better than the whole video
For me, DC specifically SnyderVerse is more depicted on a bigger type of character, gods among men. The reality of SnyderVerse is to choose their battles and defend against the threat.
Marvel is based more on human character where they discuss it's flaws and their mortality as a hero. Everybody makes mistakes and there are ways to redeem it.
I rolled my eyes when I saw what this video was about. But it was actually right on the money in a lot of ways. And it helps me appreciate the styles and philosophies of both of these cinematic universes.
Same I was expecting "snide hate boner" but got an actual look at the differences.
@@Javierm0n0 it is a snide hate boner tho
@@andyrebelo Eh, not really. Snyder himself said he wanted to explore the great mythology of DC Heroes, comparing them to Gods. And he made ample Jesus- superman metaphors.
Remember kids, if you get in a car accident while taking on your phone... you get to be a wizard!
Didn’t work out for Sivannah though.. wait, his was in the wrong order
Just like shitty kid like Shazam? Or I'll say sha-gay-flop
That's why I ride the bus, so Flash can wreck it and turn me into Elongated Man, that's gonna be rad dude
@@morbiuscrystal4875 what are you 12?
@@CastleBlackWatches older than you
WB will keep creating new timelines, because they don't have the cojones to finish one
Think Nolan think, Superman continues to stomps Omni-Man
i love how your profile pic and name just MATCH 😋😂
Look at how they have to mimic a friction of our power
Naah because if he continued then the whole DC universe would go a la mierda.
@@johnmacloyd5800 wa
I remember hearing a saying about Marvel vs DC comics that seems to still hold true today. And I feel like it encompasses a lot of this video.
"The Justice League is a bunch of gods trying to be humans. The Avengers are a bunch of humans trying to be gods."
It's an oversimplification, sure, but it does sum them up pretty well I think.
Did I just hear him say.. that Superman took a stand against Zod.. for Lois ?
I'll show myself out. Thanks.
He said against Doomsday, which is just as bad, but assumedly fueled by Superman saying "You are my world" before charging with the Kryptonite spear.
@@navonmyhand7999 6:14 no he didn't. They literally showed Man of Steel.
@@navonmyhand7999 In MoS, a young Clark was told by his mother to make his world small for it to make sense so even if Superman says "This is my world. You're my world." he's literally going by that mentality.
@@greenside7539 the boy was overwhelmed with powers and the big world what do u want his mother to tell him and if he was really like that she would have told him Imagine urself bigger
You brushing off Supermans self-sacrifice as nothing but "save girlfriend" moment was an odd thing to do. Considering his whole arc in BvS is living with the consequences of being the superman. A choice his father warned him about in MoS. Humanity doubts him as he doubts himself but eventually fully assume his role and proves to the world that he loves humanity.
Doesn't help that the execution fell flat
Thank you.
@@davidornelas3326
In your opinion maybe... I get the same feeling that Damien talks about... Different points of view i guess.
I really don’t understand how people missed the Batman element in the movie. It starts off showing his parents being killed and then we watch as Superman destroys a city and Bruce finds a little girl who parents were killed by the Superman and zodds fight. Clearly Batman is seeing Superman as a stand in for his parents murderer he is putting himself in that girls position. He trumps Superman up as this evil force that needs to be stopped like he is finally avenging his parents until Superman snaps him out of it with his mother’s name now Batman sees Superman as person and not a figure cause literally if you ever want to get through to Batman mention his parents the guy has built his entire life around one moment where he felt powerless to do anything. The movie is still very rough but I thought that aspect was nice.
@@Ytomany I think it is because people are too used to the MCU style where almost everything is spoonfed to the audience. Everything is explained to them. Zack Snyder gives us some clues every here and there like you said above that Batman saw the little girl and hearing his mother's name snapped him back to reality. Snyder didn't feel the need to explain that. The people who understood that love the film, the others are too busy nitpicking his movies to death, with bs like, "Superman shouldn't have killed Zod, hes Superman he always finds an another way" "It is wrong to put Superman into a lose-lose situation" "Batman SHOULDNT KILL I HATE SNYDER" "Lex Luthor sucks" even tho Lex is inspired from Birthright comics, "JIMMY OLSEN shouldn't have died" even tho that was a CIA agent not the real Jimmy. I don't blame the MCU for spoonfeeding things to their audience, I blame the audience who don't even want to understand something else other than their precious MCU.
Do a Berserk Wisecrack video in honor of Kentaro Miura! Like the video so this gets attention!! RIP Legend
Yes!!!!
Yes yes yes
They have a Berserk video
Yes, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@antoniomitreski9937 another one!!!!!!! Especially looking at the later half of berserk
I think this dismisses the "DC has made fewer movies" hole in the argument. Dr. Strange, sorcerer supreme, is obviously going to become a wizard a lot faster than most heroes. The other examples here are people like Iron Man who changed a great deal over the course of three solo movies, four avengers movies, Civil War, and Spider-Man Homecoming.
Did Strange change so fundamentally? I don’t think so... Strange does change quite a lot from his first movie, but he’s still arrogant, he’s still condescending and still clashes easily. Like Iron Man, they let go of their old ways, but their personality and attitudes change slightly with every movie, it’s almost imperceptible, until we go way back to the beginnings to see the change. The one thing Strange had going for him to push him to mature faster is the types of threats he’s dealing with. Tony went into overdrive after the first Avengers film from what he saw coming, but Strange saw it in his first movie, with Dormamu.
@@alexman378 I think you have to consider the time span of these films in their universes. Doctor Strange, the film, takes place over a year or more in universe, so it makes more sense for him to get there quickly cause the film jumps over a large period of time.
With someone like Superman, you have Man of Steel, BvS and Justice League which all seem to happen within a time span of half a year or so (at most a year) in universe. I don't see someone like Clark Kent going from inexperienced warrior to a magician or martyr within that short a time span.
@@Susanoo7108 Man of Steel is several years of wandering though.
@@Susanoo7108 it's 18 months between MoS and BvS tho
@@marocainforlife my bad, think I was focusing too much on the period of time between the events of Metropolis and Justice league and forgot the self exploration at the start of the film.
Small note: the epic of gilgamesh I would argue is about a transition from the Warrior to the Magician. Gilgamesh wanted to conquer death after his friend dies but even after getting the potion it was eaten by a snake and he ended up empty handed and after coming to terms with this failure and fate and his own mortality that he becomes a wise king.
Exactly, thank you!
So you're saying that MCU believes in truth, but DCEU is a big fan of justice
Pathetic
Eww. No just no. Do not remind me of whedon
Bruh
I will burn this planet down
I can't believe what I'm saying but apparently, the only DC show where the hero outgrows the warrior archetype is Harley Quin animated show.
There’s a few good ones in the animated film lines even if you don’t count straight adaptations of comics.
That's not a movie. And I wouldn't discount Batman: TAS and Superman: TAS.
What about the Timmverse?
Yeah but shows have more time and opportunities to change characters, so staying in the warrior arc for too long might bland the show.
like mcu has any good shows like DC
Strange basically held Dormammu hostage, so it's still an instance of a hero using strength to get what they want. He didn't "talk it out." He forced an ultimatum.
He literally bullied Dormammu by letting Dormammu bully him
You forgot the elephant in the room: The MCU was created by people who know and respect the genre (Feige, Favreau, etc.) whereas the DCEU was created by suit-wearing bean-counters at WB desperate to generate cash as quickly as possible.
Exactly, they put Snyder in charge when he doesn't even believe in the superhero genre. In the long run, the genre may end but when that time comes people will remember the MCU for ushering in the golden age of superhero movies, while the DCU will be remembered for "save Martha". As a guy who prefers DC over Marvel, it sucks to have to say this
@@Kevin-bj2hb Snyder doesn't believe in the superhero genre? Since when? Yes, his take is darker than the MCU's, mainly because he's a lot more worried by the misuse of power by people who are given special powers (best noticeable with Cyborg), but he clearly *loves* comics and is as much of a comic book nerd as the rest of us, if not more.
@@qwertyCandy Snyder may love comic books but he often takes away the exact opposite of the message the comic is trying to convey.
Watchmen is the best example. He made a film that looks exactly like Watchmen the Graphic Novel but completely misunderstands what Watchmen is about and ends up flipping the whole thing on its head.
@@qwertyCandy he's often said that he doesn't think the genre will last long. That's why he wanted to fast track the whole thing because he had no intention of staying after making his 5 movies. This right here should tell you why he wasn't suited for the job because no leader would be looking for a way out just when they're getting started
If Kevin Feigi had the same mentality we would have never gotten the Avengers and Endgame would have never happened
Furthermore he's always taken shots at Marvel mocking them for making movies on b list characters like Thor and Ant Man
His whole approach to the genre is one of the reasons to compromise the quality of his movies, BVS and JL feel like 4 different movies jammed into one just because he didn't have the patience Feigi did. It shows that he didn't think DC was worth his time
@@Kevin-bj2hb Alright, if he did say in some interviews that he wants to wrap everything up in 5 films and has no intention to go beyond that then it's a great argument and I would agree with you. I have to say that I still find it hard to believe though, especially when he recently said that he had plans beyond the other two Justice League films, like the backstory of Batfleck and Joker, Dick Grayson's murder, Wayne Manor burning down etc. It seemed to like it was WB who wanted to rush things to catch up to MCU as quickly as possible, not Snyder himself...
You should compare the DCEU with the DCAU. There were some great stories done in the animated universe.
DCAU is literal trash apart from the flashpoint and batman movies.
@@ayushmanrajawat2828 That’s the DCAMU. The DCAU is Batman: The Animated Series, Superman: The Animated Series, Static Shock, Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, Batman Beyond, and accompanying movies.
I wonder if there's a link between DC's celebration of the Warrior, one man who can change the world with enough strength (force) and determination, and Snyder's adherence to Objectivist philosophy.
might be. but superman as a character concept just oozes objectivism either way.
Read DC comics...
@@balacleaver583 Superman is almost the opposite of an objectivist - he cares about the collective above all, even himself.
@@balacleaver583 that is so incorrect
Except Marvel started in 1939, with some down to earth heroes, and some real assholes that are still around.
Edit: woops this posted into the wrong comment thread.
Wisecrack: "We're not here to say whether or not the DCEU is better or worse than the MCU"
Also Wisecrack: Proceeds to show why the MCU is better than the DCEU
Nahh, I think this was pretty neutral. Though the tone and designated portions of time might make people think that Wisecrack is favoring the MCU
Watch it again, that's just your own preference talking. Wisecrack was neutral.
One is not necessarily better than the other, its different ideals.
I’m wondering why they made a comparison to infinity war or endgame at the beginning. Shouldn’t it be compared to the first avengers film.
LOL TRU
0:08 In case you're wondering the full quotes is:
the quieter you become, the more you hear.
I'm a DC fan, but I feel like you have to be an actual "FANBOY" to say the DCEU is better than what Marvel has done.
This says nothing about the characters or comics these films are based on, just which execs planned better.
Agreed. Those involved with the DC movies tried to do in just three movies what Marvel did over the course of 10 years. More so, they tried to rush right to the team up specifically. They didn’t make Iron Man and Hulk knowing they were going to get an Avengers movie. They just focused on making two good movies and threw little Easter eggs to the fans. It panned out
DC has such great characters and I hate the fact that it didn’t pan out.
Yeah, DCEU fans are probably more fans of DC characters/properties as a whole.
@@invertedname3099 👏👏👏
Def agreed, however wisecrack did a horrible job at not explaining that Marvel budgets absolutely dwarf what DCEU and Zach Snyder's was. Look up the difference, I dare you
DC holds a special place in my heart. I grew up with Superman, Batman and other DC characters. I had no idea who Captain America was, who Iron Man was. The only Marvel superhero I knew was Spider-Man. I'm a DC fanboy and i HATE how Snyder ruined the DCEU. The only people who love DCEU are hipsters who want to hate Marvel and be edgy, which is why they're so easily duped by DCEU shallowness.
6:32 Excuse me what!? His literal last words were "This is my World"
Snyder’s DCEU is a story that was supposed to contain 5 parts. ZSJL was only half way through that grand storyline, thus it makes sense that the hero’s are only half way through their full transformation as characters.
What you are trying to frame in a more positive rhetoric is the fact that halfway through their journey, Snyder's characters still remain as boring as a world drained of colour.
@@elfsieben1450 nah fam. Snyder’s hero’s are unique, intricate, flawed hero’s, who are set on just trying to do the right thing while the whole world is pressed against them. Most of the character building Snyder’s given these characters is subtle and often looked over.
@@jacobkirk1846 So, where in Justice League is that subtle uniqueness in each character to be found? Please enlighten us.
@@elfsieben1450 you say “us” like your comment has any likes...
I feel Batman more of a martyr archetype or at least leaning towards it. He constantly gives things up to try to do more good. From various funds to help the people of Gotham to giving up time defending his city to find other heroes who can do more than he alone can and defend things past his own time as he feels age catching up to him. Viewing his own mortality has led him to become a mentor for new heroes and inspire gods to act.
@Lalo Landa he doesn't give everything up, he still needs money to keep his corporation running. If his company shuts down then millions would lose their jobs
@Lalo Landa he gives his body and blood to save Gotham. He may not sacrifice all of his money but he sacrifices a lot. The man had his back broken, plus multiple near death experiences and still came back. He lost his memories and became happy only to give that up to return being the Batman. Bruce constantly talks about how he's willing to give up his life and everything to save his city.
Wanda Maximoff is also a good example of a fully fleshed out character from innocent to (literal) orphan and then eventually to accepting her role as the Scarlet Witch and then turning into a wondered and warrior by the end of WandaVision.
12:54 Wait isn't the Batman from the DCEU basically at Martyr stage when we meet him, then becomes the Magician when Superman dies?
Exactly this video is some bullshiy
@@kp1x they're talking about the MCU and the DCEU, otherwise known as the Marvel *Cinematic* Universe and the DC Extended Universe. They include the movies, not the comics.
Clark sacrifices himself in BvS as a means to save Lois and the good the world represents based on what Pa Kent's ghost told him( your mother showed me there was still good in this world, she was my world), the good helped him in accepting the bad. Also his arc isn't over yet, as for Batman he will be sacrificing himself and coming to terms with the role he has to play in saving the world in JL 2 and 3, same with Superman, Wonder Woman and Aquaman for understanding their place who unite the worlds(men, amazonians, themesquira) to fight against apocalypse. Iron man and Captain America have finished their character arcs, Superman and Batman haven't. The comparison will be fair when/if JL 2 and 3 come out.
Iron Man “sacrificing” himself in the first Avengers (and surviving) is enough to make him a martyr, but Superman actually sacrificing himself isn’t? That sounds pretty backwards to me.
Superman sucks iron man doesn’t
@@thedarkfrost2351 thts what marvel kids says these days
@@h.t.creatction5321 true
Let me read Darkfrost’s mind:
He hasn’t read comics and thinks superman is a perfect being with no struggles or problems and is the most powerful.
He thinks Batman is just a rich person who beats up the mentally ill.
He thinks Green Lantern is only one person and is just a bad character.
He thinks Aquaman is a king that talks to fish and that’s it.
He thinks Flash (Barry Allen version) is a moronic and stupid person.
He thinks Green Arrow is just a billionaire that has OP arrows.
And that’s just getting started.
@@shazam2044 while i do kinda agree on your opinion on superman i think maybe you shouldnt straight up assume Darkfrost thinks like that i mean they only mentioned about superman but didnt say anything about other DC heroes
DC: but what is warrior, if not innocent persevering
"Marvel heroes are men playing gods and DC heroes are gods playing men". The parts they are playing get overshadowed by who they really are.
DC heroes are as overpowered as Captain Marvel. You don't see either of them living a normal life after they answer the call to be a hero
@@kp1x Overused or not, it seems pretty accurate
Superman & Lois CW show most of the times are centered about raising their sons lmao that doesn't count as living a normal life to you?
th-cam.com/video/FPLOXhBuDIg/w-d-xo.html
The Difference Between them is:
Marvel are Humans trying to become warriors.
DC are Gods trying to live like men.
Does guts from berserk fall into the warrior archetype by constantly fighting to escape death or does he fall more into the magician archetype and see his purpose and place in the universe as constant combat?
Is he a martyr? Constantly sacrificing in the form of suffering and constant battle to protect others from that same suffering?
It’s possible that he’s supposed to fit all three of those archetypes
He is a struggler who fights against fate! Definitely a warrior although he has slowly been moving to the Martyr by sacrificing his own personal vendetta against Griffith to help out Casca and his crew.
As far as i know Guts is trying to survive and has trouble ignoring injustice as he sees it. Definite warrior but i think he makes it to Magician?
He's a struggler
Guts is a prime example of an anti-hero struggling against Fate and Destiny.
Well, we see in Aquaman, Arthur chugging beers with his dad. Not mention Diana riding cars instead of you know flying. I think its more of DC being Gods being Human, while Marvel is Humans trying to be Gods.
I love both Marvel and DC’s approach to storytelling. I personally prefer DC because I find it more fascinating.
I think the Snyderverse wasn't allowed to properly grow into the other archetypes. Like in the final film Batman was supposed to sacrifice himself to protect Lois from Darkseid.
So basically Snyder's characters are underdeveloped in comparison to the MCUs? Absolutely tracks.
They are developed, but not as much as MCU's, due to lack of screentime.
@@jakubrejak1114 Not sure about the validity of this, at least in the case of the trinity. I would argue RDJs Iron Man was much more developed in his first film than Superman was at the end of Justice League. But that's just me
@@MrGooner9000 Well, unlike Tony, Clark didn't need a moral refinement. In his case, it was the matter of choice. Choice of belonging, of identity. Clark is forced to choose between Krypton and Earth. It's a slightly less serious change, but a development in character nonetheless. If we were to compare Stark's journey in IM 1 to an equally drastic arc, it would have been Wayne in BvS. Bruce's beliefs and perceptions get challenged and attacked throughout the movie, until they're broken with Superman's confession and completely shattered with his sacrifice. Batman is a new, healed, refined person by the ending, and it shows clearly in ZSJL.
@@jakubrejak1114 Totally agree with that comparison to Batman at the end of ZSJL. It was interesting seeing Bruce wake up in BVS with a dark morning tone, then he wakes up from that Knightmare with the sun shining and all that. It was a great transition of his character
@@jakubrejak1114 "Choose between Earth and Krypton" is a good topic to give Superman in his first movie. The problem is that Man of Steel does not handle it well. Clark was never given any reason to choose Krypton. We never see him struggling to make that choice. If the choice isn't hard on some levels the story doesn't resonate
But Superman says, "This is my world", right? Before sacrificing himself?. :\
The thing is that BvS is a bit rushed. So a lot of the viewers didn't develop the sense of emotion. But technically he did sacrifice himself.
@@sohanroy7833 Idk about rushed. But BvS got kinda complicated. Difficult to comprehend. On the other hand JLSC is a total opposite.
@@al.Farabi one of the reasons which makes it hard to comprehend is the film being rushed. You just imagine how much they showed in 3hrs runtime, which includes Lex's complex master plan.
@@sohanroy7833 exactly. I don't think anybody understood the whole thing on this first watch. But if you watch it a couple of time, maybe there is a chance you can appreciate this movie which could've been understood better if it was made as a short series of about 50 episodes. I'm sure that almost everybody would've loved it.
@@kp1x well, You seem like a better fan because I watched it only once. My fav character has been Soup man throughout the movie but Lex is definitely second and he's 'unlikeably' clever.
Short Answer: MCU makes Objectively good movies with: cohesive vision to the universe, complete comprehension to every characters' core, and took their time building the franchise instead of playing catch up. DCEU have non of that. And this is coming from a fan who love both franchise.
I appreciate you keeping your bias out of this is very important when you're being very critical of these movies
Mcu movies are on the level of the fast and furious movies
@@Yono_A1533 r/wooosh
@@jakubrejak1114 why?
@@Yono_A1533 Because it's bullshit. MCU is WAAAAAY better than F&F.
You mean... How Snyder doesn't understand at all the source material he's adapting. Or... How Snyder thinks every superhero needs to be an unpleasant anti-hero. Or... How Snyder thinks that violence and darkness alone makes your movie "adult" and "realistic".
No. Snyders plotline was about how the characters we see don't come from nowhere. Take superman. His entire storyline taking the Snyder cut into account is a man slowly and painfully being forged by hardship and loss to be not just a normal guy with great morals and the powers of a god but to become superman.
Lol he challenges the characters morals like Superman where people did not except him in his world rather than ripping off and copying the same old Superman
Superman returns:hated because it's like Matt reevs
Man of steel:hated because not Matt reevs
Wtf is wrong with you all
Wow this comment is just...Wow!
As some other critics compared in the past, you could remember as that symbolic difference between DCEU and MCU stems from their very original comics and their place in the evolution of comics literature. Almost all classic DC super-heroes were created still in the "Golden Age" of comics, when heroes were way more idealized and unflawed, while Marvel was already born in the "Silver Age" and several of its heroes were created even later, in the "Bronze Age". Unless a studio wants to do something radically different with a character, the way it was concepted in the comics can be very determinant as how it will be represented in a movie.
Spoilers: video is incorrect about Clark not fulfilling the Martyr archetype. “This is my world. You’re my world.” That line is Clark concluding a two movie arc about his purpose in the world resulting in his willing sacrifice: literal martyrdom emerging from a characters inner journey. EDIT: one could argue that that sacrifice also fulfills the video’s definition of Magician as well as Tony Stark’s sacrifice.
Exactly my thoughts, Superman's death in BvS is textbook example of martyrdom.
"He just happened to die protecting his girlfriend." - Yikes
In MoS he gave himself to Zod for mankind.
See the problem with that is all movie he has looked really depressed saving people and it seems like this was forced upon him because of his father . If he actually smiled more and was more optimistic I'd be more inclined to believe he realy loves the world and wants to save it and not just his gf who he seems to be the most happy around
@@dhakshkamra1553 you do realise that people could save people because they feel obligated to and not be too happy about it?
If a truck is going to hit a child and the only thing i can do is to jump and push it out of the way and die....that doesn’t mean I actually want to die or like it.
And secondly....it’s hard to smile and be happy when no matter how much you try people always blame you for something.
@@dhakshkamra1553 yeah. Not to make it a religious thing, but just like the garden of gethsemane story was jesus being depressed about his responsibility, Clark is weighed down by his responsibility until he realizes that choice is much simpler than he and others have made it out to be: once you figure out what ‘your world’ is, you simply do everything, EVERYTHING, you can to save it.... like a gosh darned martyr.
Doctor Strange isn't a magician.
He's a wizard.
He is not just a wizard, he is a sorcerer.
@@JARZR not just a sorcerer but a supreme one
I believe I preferred the term Master of the Mystic Arts
I think those are aspects inherited from the comics, to me DC characters have always felt more akin to a mythology full of godlike beings, while Marvel goes for you neighborhood friendly personas.
Personally, I love that distinction, it gives each of them a particular identity. And seriously, they already stole every character from each other, if there wasn't a distinction this deep we would just read the same stories with different logos on their chests.
Do you know the big difference in his analysis between the MCU and DCEU? Marvel had more movies to bring out their characters full arcs. Superman basically only had one.
Exactly i love where the story line is going, slowly developing into the superman we know and love not just starting at this end of character development
He mentioned that MCU had more movies, and also said that Superman has been in 3 movies and hasn't had much of an arc.
@@britipinojeff but he does have an arc in man of steel and the Snider cut. The Same in BvS with his self sacrifice (but they completely cut most of his character arc out in the cinematic cut). WB is it's own worst enemy. In their attempts to be s bad marvel ripoff they loose their chance to be their own enjoyable thing.
More movies doesn't necessarily mean better characters. You could skip the majority of the sequel movies for the individual characters and go straight into the avengers movies and not miss anything.
Snyder proved that individual movies are not necessary if done right. Look at Watchmen. Look at Snydercut.
MCU gives fans what the fans want. DCEU does what ever they want at the moment. Kinda feel bad for DC fans.
WB want money frome Marvel fan and make what ever they want, they just dont care to DC fan (and what is DC). money money and money. and joker heath legger burn all. movie become trash and scandal come
Actually, they are both different because of the writers and direction of the original comics. DC has always been out of this world protectors who are extremely powerful, while Marvel has always been a lot more grounded to make stories that can be a lot more relatable. DC has and will always be hell of a lot more fictionalized and outrageous stories that establish great warriors. It’s just a matter of preference. Fans of DC are more likely into the idea of a fantasy world they can escape in while Marvel fans may have a similar feeling to that, but like the fact that they can relate a lot easier to the heroes. There will always be a division between these companies and their story telling techniques. Both have told great stories, but at the end of the day, DC has so many more iconic heroes and definitive stories, but they just don’t properly know how to fully display those amazing stories on the big screen while Marvel has done an amazing job at making lesser known heroes and stories and make them so much bigger and better than they ever were. It just comes down to the writing in the end (in both the comics and film).
13:40 The Russos even said that they desaturated the colours in Civil War to make it feel more real
You call THAT desaturated??? Okay sure
If by "real" they mean depressingly awful, they succeed.
Airports. Awful places.
Love their work but they're just being lazy if they're doing it for "realism" or bleaker tone. Just tell the set department to make sets with less color, no need to drain the colors out the film.
‘Feel’ real being the key word. A film showing the work of being real would have had to actually acknowledge the many reasons that the Accord has actual justifiable reasons, instead of just framing it as inherently wrong and unjustifiable to restrict the actions of a team of unilateral human WMDs including two literal terrorists they are presumably shielding from prosecution.
It wasn't just the Russos, Gunn and even Sweadon did the same. They believed in too much color being unrealistic and music should just be background noise and not part of the scenes.
Its probably why Marvel is much popular since the characters where human and well developed and it was a culmination of the greatness of their story while DC always felt to me like they where showing off and a big display of symbolism
Me watching Jostice League "Wow this is a mess"
Me watching the Snyder Cut "Wow, this is an artistic mess"
I agree with the statement was super confused on word appraisal coming from with the Snyder cut I felt it was too long and that's some problems I felt Guardian of the Galaxy 2014 in 2 hours what's your fail to do in 4 hours
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 Same, the amount of people defending not just the Snyder cut, but the DCEU in general, has me concerned. Marvel movies aren’t perfect, but at least they had a plan.
@Henry Williams Ayyye. Lol
Me watching Josstice League: Wow, this is an underdone, trying but failing, mess
Me watching Snyder Cut: That was a fine piece of cinema. More of that please.
More like “this is a longer mess”
I’d say both mediums tackle the idea of a Forever War, but while DC has singular demigods fighting eternally, Marvel ties it to symbolic figures. Batman will always be Bruce Wayne in the DCEU, but Captain America can be Steve Rogers, Sam Wilson, John Walker, etc. Echoing what you said, it turns a mythic battle into a generational conflict.
Makes Sense
As usual, a well-crafted, well researched and expertly executed breakdown of Marvel's and DC's respective comic book universes and why Marvel is inarguably better in every conceivable way. Marvel's far from perfect but there's no question of who has a better collection of connected films (and now acclaimed TV shows).
While Marvel prepares for their 4th phase of movies that will connect the X-Men and Fantastic Four franchises -- I can't wait to see who they cast as Wolverine!!! -- the film division of DC has been sold off, which would could mean the cancelation/postponement of many projects already on the board. I'd be surprised if the Flash movie -- the movie that was supposed to wipe the slate clean -- will be delayed/canceled...again.
Your guys video essays has made me to talk in essay format when having mundane conversations with friends.
That's always been the point of the DCEU. It's always been about larger than life/unkillable characters and gods among men. The point of the DCEU is that the heroes never really die.
We’re ignoring Ted Kord, Maxwell Lord, Atom, Hawkwoman, Abin Sur, Rorschach (the first one), Dove and lots more? DC isn’t just Cyborg, Batman, Wonder Woman, Superman, Aquaman and Flash.
@@shazam2044 My statement is an over-generalization and certainly false when applied to the DC universe as a whole, but this video is specifically related to the Cinematic Universe (DCEU), where I think my statement is fairly applicable/accurate. I will edit my comment to more clearly represent my opinion.
@@joejaboy Ah, okay. In that case, I agree.
Nice video. Also worth noting is that the two comic companies set their characters on this path initially too. DC has always been about extensive lineage and timeless god like figures. Marvel wanted to create relatable heroes tied to our world like Spidey and the X-Men. If anything I'm glad that DC may FINALLY be starting to grasp this in their cinemaverse. (Being a DC fan has been -suffering- all around over the last decade). Both companies have great, well rounded characters but they have different beats and arcs that should be developed with a developed awareness of that character's journey and characterization to get the best result.
When Superman died to doomsday wasn’t it for the world? I mean yeah for Lois to because she’s part of that world, but he purposely sacrificed himself for everyone. It wasn’t even an accidental death, he assumed he’d be dying.
But he says to lois “you’re my world.” So since he cares about lois & she lives on the planet...saving the entire world is a byproduct. It goes back to when ghost pa kent tell hims that martha reminds him about the good of humanity. So this gives clarks the idea that humanity itself only matters because the woman he loves shows him how good humanity can be. It goes back to the Ayn Rand idea of self interest or objectivism. One’s own happiness or personal interest.
He didn't know "doomsday" was gonna kill him. Was willing to die to protect lois ( any man would die to protect his family) but he didn't expect to die
@@brumtownmiller6130 watch the movie again. Doomsday stabbed him and what did Superman do, in order to fully stab doomsday with the spear he moved forward even more while Doomsday's bone literally stabbing his chest(that's what killed Superman, the initial stab on Superman is not that severe, the process of Superman moving forward made it go deep and made it fatal). He was fully aware that he is going to die and willingly did that.
@Sethumathavan Mogan I just watched it again! Your wrong, he was gonna die anyway, the whole in his chest was huge, he just died quicker by making the wound worse. The initial would would of killed supes as soon as he pulled doomsday spikes out. He should of through the spear then punched the spear once it hit doomsday!
@@brumtownmiller6130 my point still stands. He was willing to die for the world. He knows that he is going to die and yet he still sacrificed himself to save the Earth.
Man this channel was soo good, what happened.
Wdym, its still good
One can argue that Batman in DCU, that Batman has had his martyr and magician arc in JL. He was willing to die to resurrect Superman and submits to larger scheme of things with the knowledge of Darksied invasion. Essentially undergoing the martyr and magician phase.
yep
If Snyder started the MCU:
1st phase: Iron man - Captain America: Civil war - Gaurdians of the galaxy - Captain America - Avengers.
2nd phase: The incredible Hulk - Thor - Dr Strange - Avengers: Infinity war.
3nd phase: Black Panther - Captain Marvel - Avengers: Endgame.
I get those references
I WILL NEVER STOP
Please analize the Cadmus arc form justice league unlimited.
That arc is awesome: it is like civil war, injustice, batman tas, superman tas, the incredibles, watchmen, the government, good/evil, authority.
The question steal the hole show. The moment when he confronts superman or when he tried to kill LL is really deep and beautiful written.
I understand the other ones, but civil war? really? That was one of the worst crossover comics in marvel. All the characters were out of character and the conflict ended in a super anticlimactic way.
Or that scene were Batman help that girl in the swing to cope with the fact that she was dying. Top 10 most sad scenes on cartoons.
@@movieblocks9164 yeah the comic is terrible good the movie version is better however Nando v movies rewrite perfected it.
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 I don't even think the movie was that well done. It just ends up sidelining the entire conflict of the movie at the end.
sure, it was a fantastic arc and character analysis...but unlike the DCEU there were people that understood the original material there
"Different here having the meaning of Broken"-James Norington, Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest
That's how they've always been in the comics.
DC: Gods playing mortals.
Marvel: Mortals playing gods.
no.
@@teamhammerbros8466 Yes
I believe that the DCEU, given as many films as the MCU, will have some characters eventually make their way through to the wizard phase of character development. They just need to make their films good enough that the fans are willing to hang on that long for it.
DC is about gods protecting and learning to embrace their humanity and Marvel is about humans learning the responsabilities and consequences that come with becoming gods.
I don't think Marvel shows consequences of being a God.
Not in movies.
@@shubhamjoshi3861 Same here. For me, it's more of a being idolized as heroes and inspiration, but without really any consequences on that part.
@@woottipat06 one movie Captain America Civil war is all about every consequence of playing god before hand
@@goldenharp5415 Which is why I love the movie.
Also, Superman definitely intended to sacrifice himself to kill doomsday in BvS. He knew being in close proximity to the kryptonite spear would mean any blow from doomsday would be likely to kill him, and we see his acceptance of this with his heartfelt goodbye to Lois right before plunging the spear. He even says "This is my world" meaning he's accepted that Humanity, despite their cynical nature and unwillingness to accept Superman as just a guy trying to do good, is worth saving even if it means giving his own life.
I would honestly also say I don't think I would consider superman in the Warrior phase even in most of BvS. Throughout MoS he makes the decision to fight for earth, but he's still pretty unsure of himself, and he's definitely unsure of himself in BvS, questioning if he can truly help (Convo with ghost Pa Kent). In that final battle I think we see him go through the rest of the phases. He makes a clear decision to risk his life to doomsday and literally dies for a cause, showing that power can be innocent and that all humans have the potential for good. Contrast that decision to sacrifice himself to doomsday with his uncertainty in MoS on whether or not he should turn himself in to Zod for humanity. He even says he doesn't know if he can trust humanity. Well, in BvS he decides that even if he can't trust them, they are worth saving.
Clark sitting on the Naruto swing always kills me lol
The Epic of Gilgamesh absolutely DOES NOT end with the warrior defeating death. Great video, but I had to swoop in to rant about that
It ends with him accepting his mortality. Which is kind of but not literally a way of defeating death.
@@Jose.AFT.Saddul Less accepting, more having a serpent steal away his hope and dreams lol
Marvel is about humans with the power of a god, and DC is about gods trying to be human.
no.
attenpting to simplify-the exact same genre with two companies is stupid as fuck.
i could just mention thor from marvel and vigilante from DC. one is a god in marvel the other is a dude with guns.
Dc/marvel =99.9999% of the same ideas and motivs. Even shonen anime is the same as comics. just small cultural differences.
this is probably why Marvel characters seem more self centred and egotistical whereas DC characters seem more humble and self sacrificing
@@AeneasGemini Yes Spiderman and Captain America are self centered and egoistical lol
As a long time marvel fan I come to understand the fundamental differences between DC film universe and the Marvel one, since both of these companies have told nearly a century’s worth of stories of their trade marked heroes, since the late 1930’s to early 1940’s DC comics has established itself as the company that uses the super hero archetype to mostly tell stories of people and groups of individuals trying to change their respective world and it’s symbolic ideals of it. While Marvel on the other hand establishing most of their iconic characters in the early 1960’s to the mid 1970’s tell humanistic stories of everyday people in our own world on using their powers and abilities to confront realistic issues and problems that face us as people today and the unforeseen future. In short DC is more based on hero’ trying to become ideals in a symbolic of a view on their fictional universe, while Marvel focus on realism in both their hero’s and the universe around them.
I don't get why it's necessary for the warrior archetype to become the magician. The theory is solid, but I don't see it as a necessity for all archetypes to end up magician.
I agree.
As a fellow DC fan I think that all of us DC fans can agree that the MCU is just better than the very crappy DCEU
After watching Army of the Dead, I think I've lost all faith in Snyder's ability to tell a cohesive story. So the DCEU now kinda makes sense to me
lol maybe you should stop trying to be a film snob. You'll realize there's a lot to enjoy.
@@Javierm0n0 Don't get me wrong, I enjoy his take on Watchmen, but if you compare his movie adaptations to the original comics/movies they're based on, Zack consistently sorta misses the point/philosophical identities of the originals, adding his own objectivist take to each one where that was never the case.
@@GreekDudeYiannis OMG how dare he puts his own take on a movie he's directing what an unprofessional!!!!
@@youssefabbas5875 When you're adapting someone elses stories and/or characters you should have some idea what they're about. Snyder has zero understanding of the source material..
the guy is obsessed with slo-mo and out of focus shots, while ignoring any kind of compelling story or dialogue
when everything is in the service of being epic as possible, nothing feels epic at all in the end
it’s like a guitar player going on stage and playing fast as humanly possible for an hour straight, it eventually becomes tedious and exhausting
I think it's kind of fitting that the movies turned out this way. The original DC heroes weren't that well-defined when they first came out. They were basically just all about their powers. Most of the Marvel characters didn't come out until much later, and they were written deliberately to be more human and relatable.
If Snyder had more control and dc was given to someone better than WB
honestly, Snyder is the wrong person for the job of coordinate and control a unified universe, being one of the director? Yes but him having the reign? Terrible mistake
Snyder is a hack at everything other than cinematography, anything else he does has the depth of a 13 year old writing fan fiction
"ZACK SNYDER shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead; and His kingdom shall have no end." ❤🙏
Jesus this reply section is wrong.
@@freshnoodles2108 Behold, Zack Snyder is coming with the art, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. ❤
something i noticed is how in DC the superheroes are the characters. bruce wayne is not the main character, superman is
clark kent is not the main character, superman is.
but iron man is not the main character, tony stark is
Speaking of Snyder, are you guys going to look at Army of the Dead? With all the symbolism, religious and mythological allusions, as well as the hints at aliens, cyborgs and alternate realities, I feel like there's something deeper going on.
Batman was meant to sacrifice himself to save Lois in future sequels
Hence eventual magician
Exactly
Do the Philosophy of Jack Kirby
tbh that has been dc and marvel's respective philosophy. its been like this in the comics since ever
Wouldn’t Batman in the DCEUs established history be a magician when he realizes he cannot stop doomsday or steppenwolfe or darksied alone and therefore actually accepts the help of others and actually brings them all together as if he was destined to since superman was dead and the whole using your brain over brawn idea is literally Batman’s style he didn’t fight Superman or create the kryptonite spear that kills doomsday out of brawn and punching alone he used strategy with the kryptonite. And unlike doctor strange he doesn’t have the ability to see 14 million potential futures he’s just a man. And while I know the DCEU and the animated universe aren’t the same. In the animated universe when flash causes the flashpoint paradox and comes back most of the league doesn’t believe flash
@sunbro of astora To support your point. Tony Stark supporting and mentoring Peter Parker (going with the accords, etc.) goes into his 'martyr phase' but Bruce creating the JL and working with "kids" in his mind like Cyborg and Flash is never mentioned. Like I saw someone say, a lot of this has to do with the order of the DCEU movies involving teams and then delving into the individuals so they can't do a lot of personal development for everyone, but even then the ones with their own personal movies aren't as dependent on storytelling as the 'warrior' as the video presumes, though it was insightful.
@@navonmyhand7999 what work does Batman do with Cyborg and Flash? I don’t see him doing any mentoring or development with him. Don’t see him helping them overcome their demons, solve their personal issues or become better versions of themselves. I just see him recruiting to build a team of warriors to stop an opponent. Ie armies win fights that individual warriors don’t. Would be great to see him do some of that as he has done in the animated universe.
What a good writing class, thank you, Michael!!
Wisecrack:
Tony Stark mentoring Spiderman = Martyr archetype
Tony Stark sacrificing himself to save the world = Magician archetype
Me: I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.
Good take. Probably a big reason why I prefer MCU to DC. Marvel's movies take place in the real world where themes and symbolism are not as clearly laid out but families can watch the films and take different things from them based on their age and knowledge. WB's DC movies, so far, have taken place in a highly stylized reality where the themes and symbolism is bold and cleanly laid out and these films work very well for adolescents who are still trying to understand the world and their place in it.
I think Aquaman would kick back a few beers with Thor from time to time
And maybe play some fortnite with him
@@kylemccabe1863 uhh no Aquaman isnt some clown like that mcu washed fornite god
@@lye27 no offense bro but quit lying to yourself aquaman in the dceu had the personality of a drunk biker/rocker boy. Plus Thor’s first two movies were very serious like Shakespeare. Aquamans first movie out the gate was very goofy and colorful. Nothing wrong with that because I liked aquaman
As I've said before
Marvel is people being superheroes while DC is superheroes being people
Seriously... superman dying at the end of BvS ISN’T martyr behaviour... okay, dude. Okay.
I think what hurts it from being the Martyr would be the fact that he comes back in the very next film
The Martyr isn't only about dying. He explained that in the video.
I think I've heard someone mentioned something regarding this that I think best sums it up. "If Marvel is about Humans becoming Gods, then DC is about Gods Becoming Human". In relation to this, Marvel's heroes start out human (fearing death and inevitability) and becoming Gods in some ways (All knowing in the sense that there is no escape and to accept death). Where as DC is Gods (Figures who see themselves as being above others) learning to be more Human (accept that they don't know all the answers nor have the power to stop the inevitable).
The Avengers assemble to beat one villain.
The Legion of Doom assembles to beat one hero.
Not even close.
Marvel: people trying to be gods
DC: gods trying to be people