The old guy at the end said it: same machines as during the War. No investment, as little training as could be got away with, maximum profit 'take', lowest possible wages. Same melon headed, entitled attitude still at the top of British industry and politics today, from political parties to the Post Office to the NHS to Thames Water.
When I was a young man in Northern Ireland I worked in Belfast in a motorcycle shop called W J Chambers probably the first such shop in the country. Its founder was an MP and he was part and parcel of why there is real closed road racing in Ireland and I.O.M., he was long gone before I worked there but his son W.J. Jnr. was the owner. That company was the country's distributor for BSA & Triumph. .As the end neared for these companies I remember the manager telling us how they had been approached by Honda in the early sixties, he and the owner laughed then off and told them the Japanese might be able to make cheap little cameras and radios but would never be able to build a motorcycle. He did admit too their folly. BSA and triumph had great engineers on staff, people like Doug Hele but the cheap skate management are totally responsible for the downfall. Tried to save themselves with the likes of the Ariel 3 while the CB 750 was selling like hot cakes. I could go on and on but don't want to bore you anymore than I already have.
My father worked for Norton Villiers Triumph then Norton motors in the 1970s and 80s. Doug Hele was there and was an absolute gentlemen. My mom was the cleaner at the factory and he bought her chocolates every Christmas. A really nice guy.
@@hoWa3920 if the masses were better educated it would be white coller not blue........the British mindset now is what's in it for me? Far east mindset what can I do for the company.
Yeah there’s no British motor industry in UK, Jaguar Landrover, owned by Tata (India), Bentley, owned by VW, Rolls Royce,owned by BMW, Aston Martin, owned by Ford, BMW kept the rights to the mini from when they owned British Leyland, the Chinese own the MG brand and any profits made from constructing cars in the UK goes abroad to the foreign owners. We are just a service nation now, working for foreign employers.
I was in the RAF in 1970's I was keen to be patriotic and buy British. I bought a new triumph Bonneville 750 in 1976 for £849. I rode it to my girlfreinds house, near Oxford, when I got there, all the lightbulbs had blown, the exhausts had cracked, and the back wheel was covered in oil
1976 was the hottest, driest summer for more than 350 years. Normally, after an extended trip like that, the chrome would be peeling off the rust (except for the back wheel).
There existed back then an elitist upper echelon in society that still exists today and will always exist. These people play with money just like you would play Monopoly! The only trouble is the average working man is the collateral damage for their games. Our skills base has now gone, we will never compete on the world stage again because there is no one left to train people.
It wasn’t simply a lack of management skills but an accumulation of many factors. The box with a wheel on each corner became the dream and as such investors chose the motorcar industry as the way forward…and they were right. The car dominated, not by British industry but America and the any colour of your choice, so long as it’s black said Ford. Indeed we had Triumph, British Leyland, Hillman all attempting to squeeze Ford off the scene but like the Japanese, they were ahead of the Brits, all of the time. Japan brought an affordable bike on to these shores for what was left of the motorcycle industry but not as a means of transport but for fun, all shapes, colours and sizes, our designers hadn’t thought of something so simple. Japanese bikes were light, performed, braked, steered and exciting. BSA and the like were still investing in scrambling as a sport, whereas the Japanese aimed at the track…..speed…..which aided research and development. The Japanese brought into play production techniques that dramatically reduced manufacturing costs…..The Brits still relied on everything being built by hand……at a huge cost. The car effectively killed the British motorcycle scene, we aided and abetted by not learning resuscitation. Right now the Chinese are creeping into the motorcycling scene using the same technique as the Japanese in the 60’s……copying, improving and giving more to the consumer for less. What are we doing in the UK to combat this invasion, encouraging Triumph to vacate these shores and build overseas. Why has Triumph deserted the UK? Politics at all levels based on costs to produce. We used to produce steam trains….we buy diesels and electric locomotives from overseas…..WHY?
This country is serviced only really, we just repair things, and sell things obtained from somewhere else. Legislation stops most enterprises before they start. It's disgusting.
It wasn’t just incompetent management. The Unions also are to blame along with a self entitled workforce who thought they had jobs for life and all they needed to do was put minimal effort into their jobs . The hard left union leaders were constantly out to cause trouble ,in the guise of ever increasing wage demands . They created unrealistic working practices. The Japanese work force had a completely different mind set . Pride in what they were making . Efficiency. Quality goes in hand with reliability. Any vehicle no matter what the badge is only as good as the sum of its parts and how well they are put together. How many parts went over the fence ? how many bikes for export were sent out poorly built ? Reputation for quality takes years to build and months to destroy.
I’ve worked for companies where the staff are treated like shit and paid buttons, and I’ve worked for companies where the staff are respected and paid fairly. Guess which employees put in minimal effort. Guess which employees went on strike. Guess which companies went under. The Japanese workforce has a different mindset, because Japanese management have a different mindset. Look how successful the British workforce is under Japanese management. The decline of British industry can be summed up in three words: the class system.
BSA opened a state-of-the-art foundry in Darlington around the the late Seventies until the late Eighties/early Nineties - it closed after the MD & Accountant were jailed for fraud and/or financial irregularities. With management like that, the workers didn't stand a chance.
Being patriotic I brought one of the last Triumphs made a 750 TSS it was so badly manufactured and built I had to strip and rebuild the engine at 1500 mls. Thank goodness for Ken Nourish engineering in Heckmondwike who purchased the rights to the Weslake 8 valve cylinder head, he supplied the parts I needed to get it running again. I offered it for display at the National Motorcycle Musium they wanted it but the cheeky bustards expected me to pay them to display it, glad I didn't both as the place later burnt down. I sold it on when I needed the cash.
In the 1970s, I drove a lorry and used to regularly call into the Triumph factory at Meriden to collect new motorbikes, when Triumph was a worker's cooperative. But they couldn't make a repayment on a Govt loan, so Thatcher closed them down. I also used to race a CCM scrambler, that was derived from a BSA B44/B50 engine and gearbox
I went to the sale day when BSA assets were being auctioned off and all the machinery was old and decrepit and the only decent machine was a Lumsden grinder obviously the management had not made any investment ever in the production facilities and it was not surprising that they went to the wall.
Had Germany and Japan won WW2 I don't think we'd have seen them investing money in rebuilding our industry the way we did theirs. Also for some inexplicable reason Engineering has never been valued in the same way as it has in the likes of Germany and Japan. Here we want more accountants than engineers and this is why we know the cost of everything and the values of nothing. Worryingly we've failed to learn from any of this and now wholly dependant on China!
In 1972 I bought a second hand B.S.A. 500 single (valve-lift)--it was a pain in the arse to start,-& I'm a big bloke,--I traded it in at "Rochdale-Cycles"-for a Honda 250,-elec start--& my troubles were over,--I worked at the Manor brewery,-& I had to wait till everyone went home,-so I could "bump-start"-the Beesa,-down the frigging hill,--if anyone saw me,they would really "Take-the Piss"!!--also there were endless Union trouble in those days,-& if a "horse Farted"they would go on strike !!
Been the subject of many dissertations - Lack of investment, over reliance on consultancy’s, poor management, over powerful unions, lack of innovation, looking backwards not forwards, lack of government support, outdated manufacturing plants - all these things led to the decline of the British motorcycle industry, it becomes merely a choice to decide how much of each element contributed to it’s collapse.
It was fun while it lasted. You can play the blame game but we simply couldn’t compete with foreign companies for a variety of reasons. Look at all the talking and experts we have today while our friends around the world get on with it and leave us behind.
Strange that the Dockers weren't even mentioned in this video, even though they were definitely a contributing factor in the demise of BSA, although not entirely to blame. There were too many other factors to take into consideration, from top heavy management structures to a work force that was complacent.
The Japanese invasion happened because there was a void, a vacuum for it to fill. Nature abhors a vacuum and that applies in business. There was a public wanting to buy and the Japanese gave them what they wanted. The workers got the blame for going on strike, but workers don't strike for no reason. Well-led and fairly treated workers don't strike. The industry, like so many in the UK, was killed by bad lazy owners who didn't invest themselves and didn't, wouldn't, or couldn't persuade others to invest the way the Japanese did. They were more concerned with taking out than putting in. I started a business from scratch and these days it's doing very well, but only because I've invested and reinvested from the very start, and I continue to reinvest all the time. A business needs to be constantly rebuilt. If anyone thinks they can build it once and then sit on their arse and just take out of it forever, they'll soon find that it runs dry.
It's the same story for all British vehicle manufacture. The management rested on their laurels, still believing Britain was the best, whilst maintaining the two teir system (if you were educated you knew better than the workforce that built and repaired them).Japan listened to all their workforce no matter how small their job was.
Had three bantams a starfire a65 rocket triumph thunderbird, a T120 bonneville mk11 850 commando matchless 500, greaves hawkstone scrambler, loadsa fun on that. And my present 1961 M16 350 AJS. All original.
I started riding in 1978 on Japanese bikes because my brother's had all had BSA's and they were always in bits or not starting. My Japanese bikes were far from perfect but BSA and other manufacturers suffered from lack of investment, Empire mentality at the top ( we're British we know best) and a lack of reliability. It's sad that such names are foreign owned yet flourishing. It was good while it lasted
The major problem as explained by technology lecturer at Nottingham tech was after the war Germany and Japan got the Marshall plan to retool and Ericsson s were still using lots of old machinery obtained from the US during the war. They were a good employer who believed in educating their apprentices but probably got no help from the government.They employed 7000 in Beeston and today there is no trace 🇨🇦
There's so much truth spoken here about lack of investment and consequent failure to improve products. Unfortunately the root of it is a mindset dominated by how risk is viewed and money is loaned or available to companies which makes taking long term approaches to improving or offering new products very challenging. Fast forward to 2024 and we have the added complexities of very high energy costs, lack of skilled labour, and an economy and legislation far more focused on net zero challenges than many of the nations exoprting products to us.
Heartbreaking as is a visit to the National Motorcycle Museum to see what we lost.Witnessed this demise at the time BSA was a giant sadly missed with other industries here in Birmingham. Heard a tale at the time Triumph realised they needed a fourth cylinder. The R/D dept was tasked to produce one they already had without the go ahead albeit with the old fashioned vertical crankcase split it was kept under a sheet.Too late unfortunately to say the least.
things still haven't changed well not for industry as for bikes the Chinese are producing and exporting huge numbers of bikes voge and cfmotos to name 2 these will compete with japenes bikes i have a BSA a10 so i enjoyed seeing the production and a triumph T120 made in Thailand .thames water sums the short term greed of today
Lack of investment, poor management, stuck in their ways. As a 17 year old in the late 60's, I remember when they brought out the Ariel 3. In my mind was the history..., the Square Four, the Arrow..... I anticipated some hot 3-cylinder, and then I saw the pics of this, this 3 wheeled moped. Wtf is that ? Misguided is hardly the word. I don't recall ever seeing a single one on the road. Ironically, in 1971, I bought a 10 year old C15 250. I really liked it, but was under no illusions about how dated it was.
The Ariel 3 was probably ahead of it's time, especially when you look at the popularity & love shown to the Honda Gyro Up in Japan... Just mentioning the Ariel 3 takes me back to my primary school head cook in the kitchens, in the early 70's who rode one to & from school..! 🙏
@@_Ben4810 Imo, it was more like BSA's equivalent of Ford's Edsel. The concept and design may have ultimately found a market in Japan, but really , for the UK and US markets where BSA sold the majority of their bikes, the Ariel 3 was completely misconceived. When I was a teen in the late 60's, Lambrettas, and Vespas, and stylish Honda C50/C70 scooterettes were everywhere in the UK. Why would anyone want an Ariel 3 ?
I started off on BSA 175 bantam's on private land when I was 12 years old then went to a 250 Starfire, went to a Norton 250 Jubilee twin when 16 on the road passed, test then to Commando 750 then went over to cars when I got married and had kids
The BSA bantam was the biggest seller but I recently found out that BSA didn’t design it. It was a German bike that BSA got to make after the war as part of some war reparations deal. But also they didn’t develop it any further they just churned out the same thing year after year and eventually it became uncompetitive compared with Japanese bikes. What a disappointment.
We lost the Gallon in the mid 70s , then we lost our British values, eventually our country... One gallon = 1 and a quarter pounds in weight...or 1 lb 4 ounces .one gallon , or eight pints = 10lbs in weight
I had one of those mopeds the yellow one except it was Green.. I remember taking a AM radio out of a car.. putting it on the back carrier with a speaker on top.. looking back boy was it hokie....
I was given an identical yellow one with 24 km on the clock. It fitted a carton of beer in the front basket & I would drink a beer or two on my on my way home on Friday afternoons. Cop car chased me a few times and I fitted moped through doorways & lots of narrow places & I escaped each time. - Three times actually.
Innovation to improve and re imagine what was previously thought impossible was only on the minds of one bike company....Royal Enfield . They saw fit to develop the 5 speed continental with a 4 valve head planned and multi cylinder small bikes able to do 100 mph , also the offshoot site in India where now has become the 4th biggest manufacturer of Motorcycles in the world . Not laughed at any more and more than a match for any competition . BSA , AJS , Matchless , Triumph , Rudge , Norton and all the rest should have gone to Royal Enfield to watch and learn . Perhaps if that had happened , we would still have a thriving motorcycle industry rather than a few old guys remembering the dismal past .
This is correct a bout better products coming from all over world, this is not full story, british manufacturing was under investing, poor education system , asset stripping was short term profits, and bad management not looking at whats overseas company's doinging . The end of british manufacturing, But funny how financial services in London were all rigth jack
Interesting to see the clip of Neale (Sid) Shilton riding one of the pre-production T21's. I think his passenger is Sabrina Shaft who features in some of the original publicity shots from February 1957.
I bought a new BSA in 1970. Quite happy with it. But if I had been better informed, I'd probably bought a Japanese bike. In those days, getting information was harder. A sad story, especially for those who went jobless.
I am no longer riding but had my time on a vast array of two wheels. Began riding assorted Japanese bikes and switched over to British and American. Fantastic times, wouldn’t change a thing. Keeping my ride up and running was part of the deal. Be good with your spanners and stay safe. 🔧🔧
Yes... I watched it happen with great sadness... all that expertise and skill thrown away by tight fisted money counters, while Japan turned out very superior products, regardless of price. One glaring example was Japanese electrical systems....waterproof, reliable and up to the task. What a revelation. It took them a while to work out what makes a bike handle well, but not that long a while either. The people I felt sorry for were the workers who, no matter what they did, suffered for the errors of the office wallahs. The union movement is the enemy of productivity, and that was a factor too, both in the collapse and the lack of any sort of attempt at a recovery. Workers and management are two wings of the same bird, not opponents in a battle.
Only ever went to one bike show, me and m'pal overnighter at an Aunts flat agin Ealing Studios and visited Earls Court, 76. Same weekend Queen were doing their stuff for free not far from Buck Palace. Remember the first weekend Friday where petrol for my TS 250 was a note a gallon. 79, you say....
Thanks to the uk gov for your support and long-term strategic thinking in the 70s: "let the market decide". Unlike Germany who values engineering (i.e. making things.)
I blame the “then” management and board of directors from that time. There were some excellent engineers with brilliant ideas but those in charge just didn’t want to listen. I still have my 1972 650 Lightning which I bought in 76, an excellent engine that’s reliable with a lot of potential. Just look at how the new Commando engine has evolved.
My old man worked at British steel in shotton back in the early 60s, he said there were massive bike sheds for the staff and lines of British bikes leaking oil , he said this bloke turned up on a little Honda, and people laughed at it, he said within 18 months it was full of Japanese bikes, no oil and reliable, as we sat there and let it happen
As a lad went to the 1972 Show. BSA only had one 650 Lightning and a Victor 500 on show. Tacked onto the side of the Triumph stand. A sad small display for a once great marque.
dead right mate. it stems from the pre war years where we as a country probally did lead the way with our products and manufactoring power, and the bosses sat on it with the attitude ... why should WE change. it brought down virtually every factory in the country inc austen/morris to BL to Leyland to imperial typewriters to all our elecrical manufactors and all household goods... all the time bosses and polititians blaming workers for bad working practices
British industry was killed by both the unprofessional management and the politicised and militant unions. With regard to the former, the theme of under-investment always reoccurs. If you are not investing in your future then you are betting against yourself and unable to move up the value chain.
i live in Manchester and about 10 years ago somebody in the city owned a 1960 bsa 600 single side valve engine bike , now these things were late 1930,s design 20 years out of date no wonder BSA went out of business
The Japanese invested and came out with things like the CB750/4 & the CDI unit used on the 1978 CB400T where as the British stuck with points and old designs, what with that and other factors like the unions, the 250 L plate ban and the old British thinking of "we have done it this way for years why should we change" the British motorcycle industry didn't stand a chance.
Yet today in 2024 UNCTAD ranks British manufacturing 4th in the world, that's bigger than Japan, France, the Netherlands and only behind the USA China and Germany which it is predicted to overtake by 2040.
MZ bought the name and tried a reboot of the Bantam in the late 90s. All captured on a brilliant documentary Equinox- Designing Dream Machines on Channel 4. Wont give away the ending.
A lot of these machines had serious design faults - small bearings small oil pumps etc etc. Along comes Honda and makes a machine ( 750 ) that is just about unbreakable.
£1.00 per gallon, wow, now more than 6 times that!!! The British bike industry was doomed well before this program was made. I remember when I bought my first bike in the seventies, a Yamaha DT125, thinking that Brit bikes looked so dated, were crudely made and expensive. The big brit brands just completely failed to see what was right before their eyes, the Japanese makers, and the existential threat they posed to them. Thankfully Triumph was saved by a visionary with some real money and business expertise, but that's really all that is left of what was a globally dominant industry. I don't count Norton, as that is foreign owned and their bikes are even now outdated and overpriced. Take their 961, it only produces 70ish bhp, for what, over £10k!!! A humble Suzuki SV650 produces more power and is only £7k!!! As for all the boutique brands, like CCM and that 2 stroke thing, I don't recall the name, just outrageously overpriced trinkets!!! Yup, the British bike industry that was is a tragic tail.
When I used my Suzy TS 250 road/trails bike to get to work from the village of Ashover to get to Chesterfield where I worked as a welder at JJ Blows I recall clearly my once a week petrol fill up at Walton Motors the Friday where, for the first time ever my fuel had risen to £1.00 per gallon. Now, as you say nearly double that for one third of the litre fill. What a rob!!
@@suzyqualcast6269 Thing is though, petrol has always been expensive relative to average income. I recall my dad always griping about the price of petrol, and I adopted that complaint when I started paying for my own petrol for that DT125 and started work. It has ramped up steeply though, in recent years. It's something I really dislike about modern bikes, their fuel economy is really poor, often worse than a car! Unless it's a painfully slow commuter machine. My 1967 Velocette will easily do 60-70 mpg at motorway speeds, over 80 mpg if pottering around on b roads, and it will easily keep up with modern traffic. Progress, what progress!!
@@aswclassicsiow8588 Yeah, that was due to the oil crisis in the early 70s. There were queues at the pumps and petrol rationing was about to be introduced just as the crisis ended.
@@turboslag That's correct I remember the ration coupons that were issued but never had to be used, I was on my apprenticeship on £6.00p a week and the rise in petrol prices hit me hard at the time
In 1970 the Honda 750-4 was £695 brand new. I remember drooling over one in Bob Joyners on the Birmingham New Road in Oldbury before tottering home on my Bantam D3.
Classic British story of lack of investment...short term thinking and bleeding companies dry to boost the offshore accounts of the investors....It is much the same today.
The other problem as well is we helped rebuild Japan after WW2 & their factories were all new, we had to carry on with what we had & still had to pay back our loans after the war, the motorcycle industry declined first followed by the car industry, sadly we have nothing left we can proudly say is 100% British, even the car factories we do still have are not British owned excluding the likes of Morgan etc
Every British company wat built motorbikes and cars was just managed was all just wrong the Chinese are still building better cheap er so nothing has changed after all these years if anything Britain was alot worse in general
more like £5 per gallon now🤬🤬🤬 My late father had several BSA's his last was a Gold Star which i got to ride when old enough. SUPERB apart from kicking it over when cold lots of bruised calves!
![ขายสมบัติ Ferrari 488 ลูกรักก!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pwF1Il1Uevw/mqdefault.jpg)
The old guy at the end said it: same machines as during the War. No investment, as little training as could be got away with, maximum profit 'take', lowest possible wages. Same melon headed, entitled attitude still at the top of British industry and politics today, from political parties to the Post Office to the NHS to Thames Water.
I totally agree.
Well said.
Yeh well said,,,England is nothing,,
@@andywilliams8636 Please give it a rest
Socialism destroys, and we've just had 34 years of it, and to be continued
When I was a young man in Northern Ireland I worked in Belfast in a motorcycle shop called W J Chambers probably the first such shop in the country. Its founder was an MP and he was part and parcel of why there is real closed road racing in Ireland and I.O.M., he was long gone before I worked there but his son W.J. Jnr. was the owner. That company was the country's distributor for BSA & Triumph. .As the end neared for these companies I remember the manager telling us how they had been approached by Honda in the early sixties, he and the owner laughed then off and told them the Japanese might be able to make cheap little cameras and radios but would never be able to build a motorcycle. He did admit too their folly. BSA and triumph had great engineers on staff,
people like Doug Hele but the cheap skate management are totally responsible for the downfall. Tried to save themselves with the likes of the Ariel 3 while the CB 750 was selling like hot cakes.
I could go on and on but don't want to bore you anymore than I already have.
My father worked for Norton Villiers Triumph then Norton motors in the 1970s and 80s. Doug Hele was there and was an absolute gentlemen. My mom was the cleaner at the factory and he bought her chocolates every Christmas. A really nice guy.
Even now British industry think cheap labour is the solution - some things don't change!
Sad but true .
If cheap labour isn't the answer, why do big corporations manufacturer everything in the far east where labour is cheap?
@ducati916sps. All to maximise profits and keep their greedy shareholders happy - it doesn’t have to be that way.
@@ducati916SPS Because British labour is not better educated, why pay more when foreign labour is cheaper and better.
@@hoWa3920 if the masses were better educated it would be white coller not blue........the British mindset now is what's in it for me? Far east mindset what can I do for the company.
You could basically apply this video and its contents to describe the UK itself.
Yes, and then Brexit, the Great Leap Backwards.
Yeah there’s no British motor industry in UK, Jaguar Landrover, owned by Tata (India), Bentley, owned by VW, Rolls Royce,owned by BMW, Aston Martin, owned by Ford, BMW kept the rights to the mini from when they owned British Leyland, the Chinese own the MG brand and any profits made from constructing cars in the UK goes abroad to the foreign owners. We are just a service nation now, working for foreign employers.
@@andywilliams8636 Yawn
I was in the RAF in 1970's I was keen to be patriotic and buy British. I bought a new triumph Bonneville 750 in 1976 for £849. I rode it to my girlfreinds house, near Oxford, when I got there, all the lightbulbs had blown, the exhausts had cracked, and the back wheel was covered in oil
British engineering at it's finest !
1976 was the hottest, driest summer for more than 350 years. Normally, after an extended trip like that, the chrome would be peeling off the rust (except for the back wheel).
At ~1:10 a Cagiva SST125,a good friend and owner of this bike ,told me that selling it was the second biggest mistake in his life.
Hey , you got off pretty lightly !😁
If there’s no oil underneath it there’s no oil in it…this bollox is how the Japanese put the British bike industry down😢
Those "period" videos are a great pleasure to watch, please find others.
I just loved the making of the tank, welding, painting.
There existed back then an elitist upper echelon in society that still exists today and will always exist. These people play with money just like you would play Monopoly! The only trouble is the average working man is the collateral damage for their games. Our skills base has now gone, we will never compete on the world stage again because there is no one left to train people.
It wasn’t simply a lack of management skills but an accumulation of many factors. The box with a wheel on each corner became the dream and as such investors chose the motorcar industry as the way forward…and they were right. The car dominated, not by British industry but America and the any colour of your choice, so long as it’s black said Ford. Indeed we had Triumph, British Leyland, Hillman all attempting to squeeze Ford off the scene but like the Japanese, they were ahead of the Brits, all of the time.
Japan brought an affordable bike on to these shores for what was left of the motorcycle industry but not as a means of transport but for fun, all shapes, colours and sizes, our designers hadn’t thought of something so simple. Japanese bikes were light, performed, braked, steered and exciting. BSA and the like were still investing in scrambling as a sport, whereas the Japanese aimed at the track…..speed…..which aided research and development.
The Japanese brought into play production techniques that dramatically reduced manufacturing costs…..The Brits still relied on everything being built by hand……at a huge cost.
The car effectively killed the British motorcycle scene, we aided and abetted by not learning resuscitation.
Right now the Chinese are creeping into the motorcycling scene using the same technique as the Japanese in the 60’s……copying, improving and giving more to the consumer for less.
What are we doing in the UK to combat this invasion, encouraging Triumph to vacate these shores and build overseas.
Why has Triumph deserted the UK? Politics at all levels based on costs to produce.
We used to produce steam trains….we buy diesels and electric locomotives from overseas…..WHY?
This country is serviced only really, we just repair things, and sell things obtained from somewhere else. Legislation stops most enterprises before they start. It's disgusting.
It wasn’t just incompetent management. The Unions also are to blame along with a self entitled workforce who thought they had jobs for life and all they needed to do was put minimal effort into their jobs . The hard left union leaders were constantly out to cause trouble ,in the guise of ever increasing wage demands . They created unrealistic working practices. The Japanese work force had a completely different mind set . Pride in what they were making . Efficiency. Quality goes in hand with reliability. Any vehicle no matter what the badge is only as good as the sum of its parts and how well they are put together.
How many parts went over the fence ? how many bikes for export were sent out poorly built ? Reputation for quality takes years to build and months to destroy.
Spot on!
I’ve worked for companies where the staff are treated like shit and paid buttons, and I’ve worked for companies where the staff are respected and paid fairly. Guess which employees put in minimal effort. Guess which employees went on strike. Guess which companies went under. The Japanese workforce has a different mindset, because Japanese management have a different mindset. Look how successful the British workforce is under Japanese management. The decline of British industry can be summed up in three words: the class system.
And, but, now new Triumphs source from India, or somewhere like, so much for the revival of the make in 🇬🇧.
And here we are returning to that with yet another hapless Labour 'government'.
@@thurstonhowell3569.........Cretin
My Grandad and Dad did their time at the Small Heath plant, I learnt so much from them. They could work out and fix anything.
BSA opened a state-of-the-art foundry in Darlington around the the late Seventies until the late Eighties/early Nineties - it closed after the MD & Accountant were jailed for fraud and/or financial irregularities. With management like that, the workers didn't stand a chance.
Doesn't give you much trust in them does it.
Not much different now . Just look at the Norton fiasco in recent times....
Bsa went bust in 1973?
Being patriotic I brought one of the last Triumphs made a 750 TSS it was so badly manufactured and built I had to strip and rebuild the engine at 1500 mls.
Thank goodness for Ken Nourish engineering in Heckmondwike who purchased the rights to the Weslake 8 valve cylinder head, he supplied the parts I needed to get it running again.
I offered it for display at the National Motorcycle Musium they wanted it but the cheeky bustards expected me to pay them to display it, glad I didn't both as the place later burnt down. I sold it on when I needed the cash.
In the 1970s, I drove a lorry and used to regularly call into the Triumph factory at Meriden to collect new motorbikes, when Triumph was a worker's cooperative.
But they couldn't make a repayment on a Govt loan, so Thatcher closed them down.
I also used to race a CCM scrambler, that was derived from a BSA B44/B50 engine and gearbox
I went to the sale day when BSA assets were being auctioned off and all the machinery was old and decrepit and the only decent machine was a Lumsden grinder obviously the management had not made any investment ever in the production facilities and it was not surprising that they went to the wall.
Had Germany and Japan won WW2 I don't think we'd have seen them investing money in rebuilding our industry the way we did theirs. Also for some inexplicable reason Engineering has never been valued in the same way as it has in the likes of Germany and Japan. Here we want more accountants than engineers and this is why we know the cost of everything and the values of nothing. Worryingly we've failed to learn from any of this and now wholly dependant on China!
My dad had a BSA and other British bikes including a triumph, back in the day.
I ride a triumph now. Great bike.
In 1972 I bought a second hand B.S.A. 500 single (valve-lift)--it was a pain in the arse to start,-& I'm a big bloke,--I traded it in at "Rochdale-Cycles"-for a Honda 250,-elec start--& my troubles were over,--I worked at the Manor brewery,-& I had to wait till everyone went home,-so I could "bump-start"-the Beesa,-down the frigging hill,--if anyone saw me,they would really "Take-the Piss"!!--also there were endless Union trouble in those days,-& if a "horse Farted"they would go on strike !!
I’ve had em all…..Utter scrap & oil leaks on rusted wheels, in a word RUBBISH !!🤮
Been the subject of many dissertations - Lack of investment, over reliance on consultancy’s, poor management, over powerful unions, lack of innovation, looking backwards not forwards, lack of government support, outdated manufacturing plants - all these things led to the decline of the British motorcycle industry, it becomes merely a choice to decide how much of each element contributed to it’s collapse.
It was fun while it lasted. You can play the blame game but we simply couldn’t compete with foreign companies for a variety of reasons. Look at all the talking and experts we have today while our friends around the world get on with it and leave us behind.
The Docker's drained the company too especially Nora
Strange that the Dockers weren't even mentioned in this video, even though they were definitely a contributing factor in the demise of BSA, although not entirely to blame. There were too many other factors to take into consideration, from top heavy management structures to a work force that was complacent.
Glad I've still got a Beeza.😊
The Japanese invasion happened because there was a void, a vacuum for it to fill. Nature abhors a vacuum and that applies in business. There was a public wanting to buy and the Japanese gave them what they wanted. The workers got the blame for going on strike, but workers don't strike for no reason. Well-led and fairly treated workers don't strike. The industry, like so many in the UK, was killed by bad lazy owners who didn't invest themselves and didn't, wouldn't, or couldn't persuade others to invest the way the Japanese did. They were more concerned with taking out than putting in. I started a business from scratch and these days it's doing very well, but only because I've invested and reinvested from the very start, and I continue to reinvest all the time. A business needs to be constantly rebuilt. If anyone thinks they can build it once and then sit on their arse and just take out of it forever, they'll soon find that it runs dry.
A good realistic comment. Same today, too many taking out leaving a few to do the graft, present company excepted.
It's the same story for all British vehicle manufacture.
The management rested on their laurels, still believing Britain was the best, whilst maintaining the two teir system (if you were educated you knew better than the workforce that built and repaired them).Japan listened to all their workforce no matter how small their job was.
True.
As are the Germans now .,.be careful Germany
Had three bantams a starfire a65 rocket triumph thunderbird, a T120 bonneville mk11 850 commando matchless 500, greaves hawkstone scrambler, loadsa fun on that. And my present 1961 M16 350 AJS. All original.
I started riding in 1978 on Japanese bikes because my brother's had all had BSA's and they were always in bits or not starting. My Japanese bikes were far from perfect but BSA and other manufacturers suffered from lack of investment, Empire mentality at the top ( we're British we know best) and a lack of reliability. It's sad that such names are foreign owned yet flourishing. It was good while it lasted
The major problem as explained by technology lecturer at Nottingham tech was after the war Germany and Japan got the Marshall plan to retool and Ericsson s were still using lots of old machinery obtained from the US during the war. They were a good employer who believed in educating their apprentices but probably got no help from the government.They employed 7000 in Beeston and today there is no trace 🇨🇦
Britain got more Marshall aid than any other country, but we used it for other purposes. They invested in industry, we didn't.
There's so much truth spoken here about lack of investment and consequent failure to improve products. Unfortunately the root of it is a mindset dominated by how risk is viewed and money is loaned or available to companies which makes taking long term approaches to improving or offering new products very challenging. Fast forward to 2024 and we have the added complexities of very high energy costs, lack of skilled labour, and an economy and legislation far more focused on net zero challenges than many of the nations exoprting products to us.
It was the peaky blinders nicking everything that wasn't bolted down, Arthur pass me the spanners
BSA gold star was a brilliant bike but sadly as with triumph that just couldn’t compete with the quality of the likes of Honda
One of the best bikes ever was the DBD32 350cc Gold Star a well ridden one could give many a 7R or 350 Manx a headache.
Heartbreaking as is a visit to the National Motorcycle Museum to see what we lost.Witnessed this demise at the time BSA was a giant sadly missed with other industries here in Birmingham. Heard a tale at the time Triumph realised they needed a fourth cylinder. The R/D dept was tasked to produce one they already had without the go ahead albeit with the old fashioned vertical crankcase split it was kept under a sheet.Too late unfortunately to say the least.
In the end it is a sad video 😢
Great video, thanks.
We had the technology but not the management - look at the Merlin Engine and then at the over bored pushrod clunkers we were putting in our bikes !!
things still haven't changed well not for industry as for bikes the Chinese are producing and exporting huge numbers of bikes voge and cfmotos to name 2 these will compete with japenes bikes i have a BSA a10 so i enjoyed seeing the production and a triumph T120 made in Thailand .thames water sums the short term greed of today
The Chinese are not as innovative as the Japanese cheap and cheerful is the best they have to offer.
I was born down the road from the BSA factory & when I was young in the 60's I used to go over road & watch them riding around the test track
Lack of investment, poor management, stuck in their ways. As a 17 year old in the late 60's, I remember when they brought out the Ariel 3. In my mind was the history..., the Square Four, the Arrow..... I anticipated some hot 3-cylinder, and then I saw the pics of this, this 3 wheeled moped. Wtf is that ? Misguided is hardly the word. I don't recall ever seeing a single one on the road. Ironically, in 1971, I bought a 10 year old C15 250. I really liked it, but was under no illusions about how dated it was.
The Ariel 3 was probably ahead of it's time, especially when you look at the popularity & love shown to the Honda Gyro Up in Japan...
Just mentioning the Ariel 3 takes me back to my primary school head cook in the kitchens, in the early 70's who rode one to & from school..! 🙏
@@_Ben4810 Imo, it was more like BSA's equivalent of Ford's Edsel. The concept and design may have ultimately found a market in Japan, but really , for the UK and US markets where BSA sold the majority of their bikes, the Ariel 3 was completely misconceived. When I was a teen in the late 60's, Lambrettas, and Vespas, and stylish Honda C50/C70 scooterettes were everywhere in the UK. Why would anyone want an Ariel 3 ?
The Triumph trident and the BSA Rocket should have done the trick for you-they were 3 cylinders😀.
I started off on BSA 175 bantam's on private land when I was 12 years old then went to a 250 Starfire, went to a Norton 250 Jubilee twin when 16 on the road passed, test then to Commando 750 then went over to cars when I got married and had kids
Good old D14 , my mates had a few of those, one changed the casings to read D1, pretending it's a 125 for learners. 🤓👌
The BSA bantam was the biggest seller but I recently found out that BSA didn’t design it. It was a German bike that BSA got to make after the war as part of some war reparations deal. But also they didn’t develop it any further they just churned out the same thing year after year and eventually it became uncompetitive compared with Japanese bikes. What a disappointment.
We lost the Gallon in the mid 70s , then we lost our British values, eventually our country...
One gallon = 1 and a quarter pounds in weight...or 1 lb 4 ounces
.one gallon , or eight pints = 10lbs in weight
Correction...0ne pint = 1 lb 4 ounces in weight
I had one of those mopeds the yellow one except it was Green.. I remember taking a AM radio out of a car.. putting it on the back carrier with a speaker on top.. looking back boy was it hokie....
Sure it was a good idea at the time though.
@@MidlandBulletRiders well it was all I could think of..
I was given an identical yellow one with 24 km on the clock. It fitted a carton of beer in the front basket & I would drink a beer or two on my on my way home on Friday afternoons. Cop car chased me a few times and I fitted moped through doorways & lots of narrow places & I escaped each time. - Three times actually.
Honda express?
@@MHLivestreams yes
Innovation to improve and re imagine what was previously thought impossible was only on the minds of one bike company....Royal Enfield . They saw fit to develop the 5 speed continental with a 4 valve head planned and multi cylinder small bikes able to do 100 mph , also the offshoot site in India where now has become the 4th biggest manufacturer of Motorcycles in the world . Not laughed at any more and more than a match for any competition . BSA , AJS , Matchless , Triumph , Rudge , Norton and all the rest should have gone to Royal Enfield to watch and learn . Perhaps if that had happened , we would still have a thriving motorcycle industry rather than a few old guys remembering the dismal past .
Oh my gosh 1 gallon approaches.. price how to get those prices back
This is correct a bout better products coming from all over world, this is not full story, british manufacturing was under investing, poor education system , asset stripping was short term profits, and bad management not looking at whats overseas company's doinging . The end of british manufacturing, But funny how financial services in London were all rigth jack
Interesting to see the clip of Neale (Sid) Shilton riding one of the pre-production T21's. I think his passenger is Sabrina Shaft who features in some of the original publicity shots from February 1957.
I bought a new BSA in 1970. Quite happy with it. But if I had been better informed, I'd probably bought a Japanese bike. In those days, getting information was harder.
A sad story, especially for those who went jobless.
Like spare parts, now just a click away !
I am no longer riding but had my time on a vast array of two wheels. Began riding assorted Japanese bikes and switched over to British and American. Fantastic times, wouldn’t change a thing. Keeping my ride up and running was part of the deal. Be good with your spanners and stay safe. 🔧🔧
Yes... I watched it happen with great sadness... all that expertise and skill thrown away by tight fisted money counters, while Japan turned out very superior products, regardless of price. One glaring example was Japanese electrical systems....waterproof, reliable and up to the task. What a revelation. It took them a while to work out what makes a bike handle well, but not that long a while either.
The people I felt sorry for were the workers who, no matter what they did, suffered for the errors of the office wallahs.
The union movement is the enemy of productivity, and that was a factor too, both in the collapse and the lack of any sort of attempt at a recovery. Workers and management are two wings of the same bird, not opponents in a battle.
6:14 That was Bob Currie - Midland editor of the Motorcycle. I knew him from my motorcycle club.
Only ever went to one bike show, me and m'pal overnighter at an Aunts flat agin Ealing Studios and visited Earls Court, 76. Same weekend Queen were doing their stuff for free not far from Buck Palace.
Remember the first weekend Friday where petrol for my TS 250 was a note a gallon. 79, you say....
The fact that even now the British bike’s from yesteryear are highly collectible ,it proves that they were and now we’ll received .
Thanks to the uk gov for your support and long-term strategic thinking in the 70s: "let the market decide". Unlike Germany who values engineering (i.e. making things.)
I blame the “then” management and board of directors from that time.
There were some excellent engineers with brilliant ideas but those in charge just didn’t want to listen.
I still have my 1972 650 Lightning which I bought in 76, an excellent engine that’s reliable with a lot of potential.
Just look at how the new Commando engine has evolved.
My old man worked at British steel in shotton back in the early 60s, he said there were massive bike sheds for the staff and lines of British bikes leaking oil , he said this bloke turned up on a little Honda, and people laughed at it, he said within 18 months it was full of Japanese bikes, no oil and reliable, as we sat there and let it happen
As a lad went to the 1972 Show. BSA only had one 650 Lightning and a Victor 500 on show. Tacked onto the side of the Triumph stand. A sad small display for a once great marque.
The writing was on the wall.
My first motorcycle was a BSA Bantam 175....it seized up solid before I got it home...crankshaft was a mile out of true
dead right mate. it stems from the pre war years where we as a country probally did lead the way with our products and manufactoring power, and the bosses sat on it with the attitude ... why should WE change. it brought down virtually every factory in the country inc austen/morris to BL to Leyland to imperial typewriters to all our elecrical manufactors and all household goods... all the time bosses and polititians blaming workers for bad working practices
At least the Triumph badge made a great belt buckle ….
44 years in British industry, my conclusion, investment..... LACK OF!
British industry was killed by both the unprofessional management and the politicised and militant unions.
With regard to the former, the theme of under-investment always reoccurs.
If you are not investing in your future then you are betting against yourself and unable to move up the value chain.
i live in Manchester and about 10 years ago somebody in the city owned a 1960 bsa 600 single side valve engine bike , now these things were late 1930,s design 20 years out of date no wonder BSA went out of business
The Japanese invested and came out with things like the CB750/4 & the CDI unit used on the 1978 CB400T where as the British stuck with points and old designs, what with that and other factors like the unions, the 250 L plate ban and the old British thinking of "we have done it this way for years why should we change" the British motorcycle industry didn't stand a chance.
Yet today in 2024 UNCTAD ranks British manufacturing 4th in the world, that's bigger than Japan, France, the Netherlands and only behind the USA China and Germany which it is predicted to overtake by 2040.
Was the pillion rider on the 21 Shirly Ann Field?
Similar if not.
MZ bought the name and tried a reboot of the Bantam in the late 90s. All captured on a brilliant documentary Equinox- Designing Dream Machines on Channel 4. Wont give away the ending.
A lot of these machines had serious design faults - small bearings small oil pumps etc etc. Along comes Honda and makes a machine ( 750 ) that is just about unbreakable.
£1.00 per gallon, wow, now more than 6 times that!!! The British bike industry was doomed well before this program was made. I remember when I bought my first bike in the seventies, a Yamaha DT125, thinking that Brit bikes looked so dated, were crudely made and expensive. The big brit brands just completely failed to see what was right before their eyes, the Japanese makers, and the existential threat they posed to them. Thankfully Triumph was saved by a visionary with some real money and business expertise, but that's really all that is left of what was a globally dominant industry. I don't count Norton, as that is foreign owned and their bikes are even now outdated and overpriced. Take their 961, it only produces 70ish bhp, for what, over £10k!!! A humble Suzuki SV650 produces more power and is only £7k!!! As for all the boutique brands, like CCM and that 2 stroke thing, I don't recall the name, just outrageously overpriced trinkets!!! Yup, the British bike industry that was is a tragic tail.
When I used my Suzy TS 250 road/trails bike to get to work from the village of Ashover to get to Chesterfield where I worked as a welder at JJ Blows I recall clearly my once a week petrol fill up at Walton Motors the Friday where, for the first time ever my fuel had risen to £1.00 per gallon.
Now, as you say nearly double that for one third of the litre fill. What a rob!!
@@suzyqualcast6269
Thing is though, petrol has always been expensive relative to average income. I recall my dad always griping about the price of petrol, and I adopted that complaint when I started paying for my own petrol for that DT125 and started work. It has ramped up steeply though, in recent years. It's something I really dislike about modern bikes, their fuel economy is really poor, often worse than a car! Unless it's a painfully slow commuter machine. My 1967 Velocette will easily do 60-70 mpg at motorway speeds, over 80 mpg if pottering around on b roads, and it will easily keep up with modern traffic. Progress, what progress!!
I remember in 1972 when petrol was 34p a gallon in (i think) 74 it went up to 50p a gallon
@@aswclassicsiow8588
Yeah, that was due to the oil crisis in the early 70s. There were queues at the pumps and petrol rationing was about to be introduced just as the crisis ended.
@@turboslag That's correct I remember the ration coupons that were issued but never had to be used, I was on my apprenticeship on £6.00p a week and the rise in petrol prices hit me hard at the time
They make great air rifles, I've got 3.
No money no honey!
The rich and famous. The Dockers ran it into the ground!!! Richard Burton purchased the Motor Yacht!!!
How do you think the Dockers had a gold plated Rolls Royce ?
British Bikes were about £2500 Japanese Bikes Equivalent was £1300 in my memory
In 1970 the Honda 750-4 was £695 brand new. I remember drooling over one in Bob Joyners on the Birmingham New Road in Oldbury before tottering home on my Bantam D3.
Neetoo ... Vid history..
Pity they can't start making them again😅
slap heads at the top skimming as always... british industry and investors all over
If we're not at the forefront of an industry we're just not interested. Why play second fiddle to the Japanese when we could be making jungle records?
Also why do we tend to the ever so slightly cheaper option?
I've owned British and Italian cars in the past. Now I only buy Japanese products. I'm getting too old for crawling around under a jacked up car
🌴🌴🌴🌴
The little bit of jazz mmuss is neet whats it called, anyone.
Overpriced tat! What could ever go wrong?
Same story at BMC sadly.
Ahhhhrrr the 60s when you could drive a moped on the road without being killed by a migrant....
Thats very True lol, Bring back the 60s.
Classic British story of lack of investment...short term thinking and bleeding companies dry to boost the offshore accounts of the investors....It is much the same today.
And so the story goes on. Brexit, and Honda car factory shuts down 5000 jobs, and what comes along with other jobs in the local area.
Well, you know what BSA stands for? Best Scrap Available. Ha!!!
Bloody Sore A**e
They copied and they improved on the product. How true was that?
The other problem as well is we helped rebuild Japan after WW2 & their factories were all new, we had to carry on with what we had & still had to pay back our loans after the war, the motorcycle industry declined first followed by the car industry, sadly we have nothing left we can proudly say is 100% British, even the car factories we do still have are not British owned excluding the likes of Morgan etc
You can blame the unions for a lot of this. No one was perfect, but the unions stuff the business in the end.
Those bathtub 'frames' are just crap, so ugly. Looks like a chopper donor only. Even a mint one would be embarrassing to ride it looks so bad.
I believe it was called British disease.
Yep, too many cups of tea and too
much union interference.
The normal British way !!
£1 a gallon terrible 😂😂
Every British company wat built motorbikes and cars was just managed was all just wrong the Chinese are still building better cheap er so nothing has changed after all these years if anything Britain was alot worse in general
"No good deed goes unpunished." Should not have won WW2. Better to be defeated and be given support to re-start.
I had Japanese bikes, I wouldn't anymore. Now I have two British bikes BSA 650 RGS and Triumph t120
This what happens when you make rubbish
more like £5 per gallon now🤬🤬🤬 My late father had several BSA's his last was a Gold Star which i got to ride when old enough. SUPERB apart from kicking it over when cold lots of bruised calves!
It's over £7 a gallon now.
When did it become mandatory to put air in mopeds tyres during training ?😅