It’s A Mistake To Write A Bad First Draft Of A Screenplay - Mark Sanderson
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ส.ค. 2024
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In this Film Courage video interview, Author/Screenwriter Mark Sanderson on It’s A Mistake To Write A Bad First Draft Of A Screenplay.
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#writing #screenwriting #screenplay - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
This is great advice outlines are your friend before the screenplay.
You said it! Thanks for commenting.
I've always had the same thought process, I'll fill a whole notebook with ideas about character, plot, themes, rules of the world, etc before writing a single word, going into it blind, while can be fun and have some great moments, is a huge risk, and it can result in time wasted
Agreed. Thanks for the comments, Christian.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat and thank you for the good advice and insights!
He is 100% right. I had a project with a studio and worked with them on the outline every other day for a month before I even began to right. People have to remember that these studios are taking a gamble every time they put out a film and there is a lot of money on the table.
Working at Studio level but misspelling the word 'write' :/ --- bad juju, Lol!
@@_wtf first draft
@@theblacksmith0880 haha nice save
This is just such a specific scenario that definitely applies to writers hired by a studio to write a first draft in X number of weeks. For everyone else, you do what works for you on your spec writing journey. If you talk to enough writers (any kind, not just screenwriters), or listen to enough interviews with writers, you see that there are an infinite number of ways of approaching a piece of work, from pantsing to plotting, to outline or no outline, and on and on and on. So bizarre that a working writer would have such a cut-and-dry opinion of THE way writing has to happen.
Victor DiGiovanni well you kind of answered your own question. In the professional field time is of the essence. I work in the professional animation field and it’s the same. The window to experiment (bad first drafts) is extremely small.
Now if you are doing something for your self or on spec, than by all means take as much time as you’d like. In that case it’s not about deadlines, but about your art being as good as possible.
I work in a similar style now, but admittedly my project is immensely layered and technical and vomiting a draft is simply out of the question. But what I got from this is that perhaps, there is no vast difference in vomiting a first draft or vomiting an outline. Both writers see the infant state of the film. Nothing is written in stone for either I guess. And for those that it's written in stone, I'm pretty sure the end product will feel stiff, unimaginative and fake.
As a working writer, he's emphasising that an outline is a safety net, to save the writer time, and stress, since they will always have a rough idea what needs to happen in each scene. He doesn't say people can't be discovery writers. He's saying why vomit out a draft when you can vomit an outline out much more efficiently.
All true, but it goes without saying that this is true of every field where you are being paid by people to create something. If I'm a cook at a restaurant, I'm not going to serve something I slapped together or experimented with. But if I'm learning to cook or creating a new dish, I'm going to try all sorts of things that may or may not work. Lots of failed batches will get tossed directly into the bin.
This admonition is only valid if you're under a time crunch in a client situation. Even so, not everyone's creative process is the same. Mark Sanderson clearly uses ONLY the detailed outline process and that's great. I love outlining too, but more than half the time, my detailed outline evolves into a very detailed scriptment by the time I'm done. But sometimes I've just written basically stream of consciousness in full screenplay format and then gone back and carved out those pieces that worked and rewrote everything else. I know some people that just hate outlining as it ruins their creative freedom and flow. For some, having to force themselves to write a detailed outline would be more time consuming and stifling than the vomit draft. There's just not any singular process that works for everyone. That's why some writing books are AMAZING and thousands swear by them, and other thousands think they're garbage.
YOU DO YOU.
@@VictorDiGiovanni 1. He's talking about developing a writing process that's efficient.
Why would anyone want to break into Hollywood with one process and then change that process once they are on tight deadlines? Better to have a productive process, and refine it over the course of a career.
2. No one who advocates outlines ever said the writer *has to* stick to the outline rigidly until the end of the draft. It's there in case it's needed. Like Mark said, it's a safety net.
3. "For some, having to force themselves to write a detailed outline would be more time consuming and stifling than the vomit draft."
Maybe so, but that's an outline for a good first draft. The vomit draft doesn't guarantee anything at the end of it.
"You can't polish a turd."
'Write about what you know.'
lol
👎Not good advice. That's basically telling a writer to limit themself. It should be write from your emotional experience. Besides, whatever you write, your emotional experience finds a way to bleed into it.
@@meg-k-waldren Outlines never limit screenwriters. In fact, they are a safety net that allows you creative room to play but with parameters. I did nine drafts of my last outline to get the story right, imagine if I had not -- how many script drafts I would suffer through. Again, you get none of this luxury when working professionally. Script are all about structure and within that structure you do inject your emotional experiences.
You better be able to polish a turd, if what you know is municipal waste management.
@@comedychrises Ironic that 'writers' think writing is just about creativity not craft.
Even the outline is a working draft. I start with three acts and break it down into every scene becomes a story within the story. If you think you can't write a feature script, write 12 ten minute shorts with cliffhangers or each short is 4 minutes times 3 times 10; either way it comes out 120 minutes of building a story. Going from point A to B is much easier when you have a road map. Writers on a road trip without a roadmap find lots of dead ends and have to turn around, usually ending up lost. Great interview.
You still amazes me with ever guest. I am actually writing my first novel. Not that well at times, lol, but the screenplay knowledge you have been kind enough to share with us, has been invaluable to me. MANY Thanks to you and all your quests.
Thank you , i used to wonder why i cant vomit out a script without eating anything :)
It's great to hear that there can actually be a good first draft. People drag into the ground that the first draft is trash when it doesn't have to be when you do the pre-work.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
What are your thoughts on the first draft of a screenplay? Do you agree with Mark?
I do. Everything he says is spot-on - for a paid project. What is missing is that - in my opinion - when coaches say "Write Badly Boldly" or "Don't Get It Right, Get It WRITTEN" they are creating a space where newer or chilled writers can take a chance and blast through to finish a draft of a spec script, whereon THE WRITER HIMSELF [not working on a specific commission or job] does editing, revising, 2d, 3d, 5th etc. drafts through final, polished professional-level ready-for-submission script. The reasoning MS highlights is essentially to Vomit (Be Explosively Creative) in the Outline process, rather than in writing the First Draft, so that the writer can assess what works and won't work, sparing the writer the pain and silliness of vomiting a 95-pages "First Draft" that is substantially useless crap which cannot be rescued or exhumed except by completely overhauling it (cf. rewriting it out of whole cloth). I see both sides. I think MS has the better view. But if the price of creativity is a Vomit Draft, than absolutely Puke It Out!
I have recently finished the first draft of my feature length screenplay, I have spent a year and a half to proceed onward with pitching it.
I agree. But I would like to see his outlines and how detailed they are.
In my case sometimes, to understand better some characters, I need to go inside some of the scenes, see how they speak, how they feel their surroundings. And I’m not sure if I can find this in the outline process. Does this bring some problems and more rewriting? Yes. Is it a mistake or a waste of time? I hope not, because at the end it gives more solid characters and scenes.
@@joaquinhernandez6940 Congrats, Jaoquin! Best wishes with your pitching.
@@ValdemarDeMatos My outlines are fairly detailed, but I always look forward to writing the actual scenes and putting my characters together for the first time on the page. Screenplays are all about structure, and taking a good amount of time to work on an outline, treatment, or beat sheet, I've reduced the need for massive rewriting. Thanks for commenting!
I totally agree with him! Working on a strong outline has made it less stressful to write a script, in my recent experience!
Thanks for commenting. The screenplay as I say should be a pleasurable experience, not one where you get stuck and can't move forward because you've spent a week trying to figure out ACT TWO. Deadlines are met by a schedule and efficient writing. After finishing a handful of scripts, writers start to evolve into efficient writers working at the top of their game at any given moment. They hopefully can take a concept through the process to a solid draft -- and yes, drafts if necessary - and it's never FINISHED! There are many changes in development until production - - and sometimes even more changes. Yes, it takes time, but my point is why not strive (without pressure) to respect the first draft and do your best not to just get words on paper.
This actually makes a lot of sense to me. I don't work in Hollywood though, and I personally always get to a point where I have to get actual pages done in order to see the entire script. I wrote a first draft that had all the story parts I wanted, but with terrible dialogue and a lot of 'holes' I needed to fill (like missing explanations and action scenes that needed fleshing out etc.), then I went back and revised it to try to get more of that in there. I printed it and now I can see what's wrong with it. I wrote notes, and also had friends write notes on it, and now I know how I can make it to what it was meant to be. It's not only about seeing where it's wrong, but I can't keep the script in my head until I've seen it on paper. I don't really have to go back and read the notes I wrote now, but I needed to write them with a pen in a physical script. But I had still worked with the story and characters enough in the treatment to know them and where everything was going, so there is definitely a point in what he's saying. I wouldn't hand in anything before the next version of this script to a producer. Maybe it can be seen as a waste of time to write two scripts instead of one, but so far I need it to get it done.
Well, I understand where he's coming from, I think though he's wording could be very unhelpful for a good number of people.
1. I agreed with the importance of the need for structure in industry.
2. I don't think a majority of people who work well with vomit drafts believe that's the draft you hand in. The vomit draft is for you.
3. I think for a lot of people the first draft you hand in is usually at least your third draft of actual writing.
Thanks for commenting Words. Yes, you NEVER turn in your draft right after you type FADE IN. But you only have so much time under a deadline. So, I allow time at the end to go over the draft and clean things up a bit, but we are not talking about major story structure - the story and characters are agreed upon in the outline, so it's not sweeping changes due to what I want to see - it's double checking things work, maybe fixing some dialogue, and importantly making sure - NO TYPOS!
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat Thank you for this clarification. I hear you, that definitely makes a lot of sense and I definitely agree.
Gold... This channel is just gold!
So much info/ insights and inspiration I get from this!
Love and respect from the Netherlands 😎 ❤
4:12 Great question. I think the "vomit draft" is a powerful resource, a sort of means for exploration in order to find cournels of interesting beats, character moments, authentic lines of dialogue,. It's a time where your can fully explore possibilities for both the characters and the plot, one that your thinking mind can't do, one that your explorative mind can, there has been proven studies on this (can't recall the source right now....convenient right? lol) but damn that's a great question because almost everyone can relate to it.
I disagree with mark, you can do an explorative "vomit draft" in a few days (like a pure full on unthinking, explorative, dream like expression)and pick out the elements of what I said above. I've heard writers in the industry do what I've explained and they've intuitively found REALLY interesting things their thinking mind would never of, it's a powerful resource...if used the right way. Having said all that I do love Mark's attitude and mindset:)
Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment, Richard.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat Absolutely Mark, you've such a healthy attitude and positive direction to yourself. You're a cool dude Mark! Hey look, what do I know really though, I'm not "on the clock" and being paid in the industry like you. It's very easy for me to sit on the sidelines and spout all this, you're actually doing it, pressure and all that, tough as hell I'm sure.
It's funny how many commenters are looking for reasons to object to a professional screenwriter's advice, like they don't want to do the work to get the level of quality Sanderson is talking about.
this, this, THIS!!!!
I never understand why people say that the first draft must be bad. Always try to do your best, no matter which draft is it...
Why not, right? Thanks for commenting and watching.
Well that's great but if you preceded with this chances are that you will probably hit a writer's block and that is by having many ideas at the same time of having no specific idea for an act or stopping by to correct every single mistake you make and these things might case to just brake away from the writing process. This is why you just let the horse go wherever it wants to go in your first draft...
@@andymason2457 Hit writer's block? A solid outline would never allow you to hit writer's block because the story and movie is already worked out before you ever start script pages. I would think a writer would hit a block with no roadmap and when things get difficult, the writer sits for days trying to figure out parts of ACT TWO deep in and instead of writing pages, the writer sits and tries to figure you a script WHILE writing pages. It's a process that respects outlines and how much they help a writer to create a better first draft - not something that has to be mostly rewritten and the second draft becomes almost a page one rewrite. Again, my point is you won't get this luxury when you start working professionally.
This is fact, even for books. Your first draft can be flawed, but it still needs to have a solid structure. Then in revisions some things can be added or cut.
This is one of the best screenplay advice I've ever got, I really admire Mark Sanderson, thanks Film Courage
Ah, thanks so much, Krishn! Thank you for watching and commenting. Hope your projects are going well.
Very encouraging interview here. I love what he said about living with the characters while outlining. I used to be averse to doing an outline because I thought of it as clinical or detached instead of playing with the "world" of the story WHILE outlining and making discoveries.
Again, I must state - if you WANT to work professionally, you will not be able to write the script on assignment (most script jobs in Hollywood) you will be required to work from a solid outline. A friend of mine just directed a huge budgeted film for a studio and his outline for his screenplay was 60 pages. Yes, the studio required it.
I've always felt this deep in my gut. Time to start writing!
I've definitely learned a lot from this channel, and I have my own process of writing, but I'm always looking to learn more. Just one video down in my feed, there is another video on this channel from someone who says ''The first draft doesn't matter ". 😂
Just like anything on the internet, you take it in, try it out and see what works for you.
I fall somewhere in between both ideas. I don't always have the ending mapped out but I also don't just spew out a stream of consciousness because I wanna get it done.
Rearranging is the worst in my opinion! I try to have most of the structure correct and most of the plot points.
I can't say this would work all the time. Some stories just come in drips and drabs and others come in full form. When you've got the solid outline already, I say he is correct but when the outline isn't quite there and time is passing... I can't say either is better or worse but I also can't imagine any writer telling you to just sit around and wait for inspiration to strike. If you need to find the connective tissue, sometimes writing free-form is the best way. I suppose you could argue that it isn't necessarily the first draft but when you have ten random scenes without fully understanding how they connect, writing is often a better solution than waiting for inspiration to strike. Writing and going for walks or long drives are what work for me anyway.
Yes, long walks or drives are so good for working on those ideas to connect those scenes. I've done some of my best "thinking" when I'm out for a run and suddenly I'm watching scenes play in my head and I have to get home fast to write them down. I'm coming at it from working in the film industry where a solid outline is required before you will ever be allowed to start pages. In addition, a first draft of an assignment has to be pretty damn good because that is what they are paying you to do. Everyone has their own working methods as I mention in the interview, but when starting to work professionally, outlines are the key to ongoing success. Thanks for watching and commenting. I hope your writing is going well.
Excellent advice, I can't imagine writing a draft without an outline, maybe a single scene? But definitely a time saver to work from an outline.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Greg!
This is very true. Trying to completely break from what you created in your first draft is so difficult. So better to make sure you have a decent outline and idea of who the characters are, theme etc etc. So the first draft should be reasonable in my view and from there you turn it into something great.
Agreed, Formulaic 78. Why not try the first time to make it best you can under the circumstance. And as I mention, when working professionally, your first draft that your turn into your producer will have to be pretty damn good. Thanks for watching and joining the conversation.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat Thanks Mark. Loved your interview. I'm working on my seventh script now after lazily pursuing this dream for 20 years on and off. The first thing I did differently this time was write a three page outline, basically like a novel outline with all the key plot points covered off. Then when I was "finished" a month later (and where I've stopped with my six previous scripts and sent them off to competitions and not gotten very far) I started watching these interviews on these channels and thought, right, how about I rewrite this with all the things Hollywood want, like Michael Hague's structure, and constant conflict, and a midpoint, and a clear protagonist, and three dimensional characters with moral and physical flaws, and personal arcs and on and on. And what I've now pretty much completed a further three months later is easily my best script by far containing everything professionals like yourself have evangelised. I never would have said this twenty years ago, or even ten, but following these "formulaic" rules has made my script so much better, and yet I have still managed to keep the themes I wanted and a fair amount of cultural commentary too. In other words I haven't sold out, I've just gotten better. Cheers.
@@formulaic78 Ah, so great to hear the good news! Congrats. Thank you for watching and commenting too.
I think I need to stop now and better outline because I'm now 49 pages in and trying to come up with stuff on the fly, and it is becoming more challenging. I know where the story ends up but the in between I definitely didn't spend enough time on.
Love this advice.
From my experience it depends what the focus of the individual (writer) is. Is it to invent & craft a well constructed and engaging story for someone to read that feels like a movie (or TV show etc), or is it to simply generate pages of typed words to say “hey look at me, I wrote a script” regardless of whether the words make any sense to whoever reads them. There is a craft to constructing a story which lands with the reader & creates an emotional experience, which then creates a desire to turn that script into a movie (or TV show etc). It’s not the physical pages, it’s the experience of the story within them - which feels like a movie (or TV show etc) - when you read. I’ve been sent many scripts over the years that didn’t contain a well constructed story, and in fact a lot I didn’t even get past the first few pages. Yes the physical entity of typed pages existed - the script - but the experience was negative because the story wasn’t constructed to make sense. Don’t ‘write a script’, tell an engaging story that feels like a movie - presented in the correct format designed to make sense to the reader. Stay safe everyone.
I totally agree, Martin. Thanks for the comments and insight.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat Thanks for messaging Mark. Much appreciated. I really understood what you were saying in your interview and wanted to be supportive. I've spent a long time to learn & understand the truth of what story construction & screen writing etc is, and completely understand the hostility. Screenwriting is a craft you have to learn, and there is a hell of a lot to learn. I'm amazed at how much I've learned so far, and I'm still learning. Screen stories are insanely complex, and creating one that works & satisfies against expectation isn't something you can do by accident. I know that isn't what anyone wants to hear when they just want to write a script, but it's the truth.
Fyi the amateurs who disagree, the guy's talking about assignment gigs. You don't get to waste precious time to find out what your story is. Actors usually have availability issues so, you have a very limited window to finish the script, or else you may end up losing your lead actor(s). This is why it's important to choose a writer who can deliver on time.
Thanks for watching and joining the conversation. Hope your writing is going well.
Add in treatments/scriptments, and I am good with what he says. Well done, @Mark Sanderson!
Yes, treatments/scriptments are good! Agreed. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Thank you- Film Courage---Go Mark-- Your great. I love your analogy about the walls.. Amen..
Thank you Daniel! Great to see that you continue to find value here.
"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe"
- Abraham Lincoln
Love this quote! Thanks for watching and commenting!
Mark Sanderson thank you so much for sitting down for the interview for providing so much value❤️
Apparently Hitchcock had every shot of every scene worked out before the cameras started rolling on the first day of principal shooting.
Good quote! Never heard that before. The more time I spend on my outlines/synopses/treatments, the stronger my drafts have gotten.
I wrote a ninety-page screenplay in three days, and I was only able to do that because I had such a good outline. It baffles me that some people don't outline anything at all.
Wow! Congrats. Bravo! Thanks for commenting, Caleb. Keep up the good work and best wishes with your project.
I've written them fast too, but there's no way it was perfect and didn't have re-writes. Also They love to tout about how Sylvester Stallone wrote Rocky in like 2 days, but never tell you how many drafts he wrote after that.
Mark is so right on the money 👌 I don't do scripts for a living (I'm simply an admire of screenwriters and their craft) but I do as a Composer. For instance I've been professionally hired to score 2 long features here in Portugal and know exactly what he's talking about. Producers wave your payments like carrots 🥕 in one hand but 1st they slide under your pen a contract full of tight deadlines, standard quality agreements, money penalties when one's failin short production terms or requests and so on... meaning there's no 'vomiting' process whatsoever in professional production. Great interview! Keep it up 👍
Thank you, Joao! Stay safe in Portugal! Keep creating the music!
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat Thank you, Mark, and, please, stay safe too! All the best!
Needed to hear this today after trying to write today
Ah, thanks for watching. Best wishes on your writing journey.
👏🏽👏🏼👏🏻👏🏽👏🏿👏🏼👏🏽👏🏿👏🏼👏🏻👏🏼👏🏽👏🏿👏🏼👏🏻👏🏼👏🏽👏🏿👏🏼👏🏻👏🏼👏🏽👏🏿👏🏻👏🏼👏🏽PREACH BROTHA!!! First drafts at very f*****’ important!!! Thank you for saying it!
El Gonzo! Thanks for watching and commenting! Hope your writing is going well.
I agree with Mark that the first draft of a screenplay can't afford to be bad, by that meaning making the silly mistakes that we as writers sometimes make. However, the first draft can be worse than the second and eventual final draft because it's where you make the most errors as a writer, whether experienced or amateur.
Yes, agreed. Like I said, it's never going to be perfect, but we hope the second draft isn't a page one rewrite. Yes, each successive draft hopefully moves the project closer to the full realization of the concept. It's all about execution. Thanks for watching and commenting.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat Thank you for being a great influence on screenwriters who tune in to Film Courage. You're the best of them all in my opinion.
@@ajtaylor8750 Thank you so much, AJ! That makes my day. I wish you the best on your filmmaking as well.
"You can't turn in a crappy first draft, you'll be fired."
I always thought I was doing it the wrong way, being the one black sheep that'd rather outline harder and give everything I had on the first draft while everyone else was vomit-drafting 5k words a day...
This video was very reassuring
Thanks, Bruna for watching and commenting. Keep up the good work!
My takeaway is that one should write an outline, but write it in pencil. Which is a perspective I hadn't thought of.
Outlines are rewritten all the time and so are screenplays. But we all have to get that first draft completed and hopefully much of it will be kept. Thanks for watching and joining the conversation.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat Thanks!
Get this guy in for more stuff.
Thank you for watching! We agree. Mark is excellent. Here are many other interviews and a class with Mark. Here is more info: filmcourage.com/?s=mark+sanderson
I think when you're starting out, it's good to have the vomit draft mentality, as it takes the pressure off. As you grow so too should your ability to do higher quality first drafts. It's not automatic that, that happens though... so the need to strive for the day your 1st draft is your last draft, is a goal to keep in mind, unattainable as it is.
EDIT: oh and to ans. the question, YES and NO. Imo, I respectfully think - have an outline but limit it to 4 to 5 most important beats e.g. BMOC + inciting incident and low point. The more of a deadline you're up against the more beats I'd add. But you gotta leave room for the creative. The magic. I find there to be more magic in indie movies than big studio movies anymore, for that reason.
Agreed, the early times with those first few screenplay is the time to learn and get to know yourself as a writer... find and develop your strengths and weaknesses. I'm still not sold on the fact that a vomit draft is a good thing ever just to get in on paper. Once the mold is set of that movie (draft) you've just written, many first time writers don't yet have the ability to make the drastic changes necessary to totally change a draft from page one. It's much harder to throw most of what was written and start again. As another viewer mentioned, he is rewriting while writing and has gone over the first scene more times than he can count. That isn't good either for actually getting a project done. We all know it's never perfect and even changes up and during production. I know that all too well. Thanks for commenting and watching.
There have been times where I wrote out an entire outline only to finish the story and realize it doesn't work. I wouldn't call it a waste of time though. That's how you learn.
Sure. It's how you learn, but think what would have happened if you went on to write that script and then you read it and find out the SCRIPT doesn't work. It's all about the outline. Period.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat I've done that too. It's not a waste of time if you learn from it.
@@MonicaBryant Okay, whatever works for you is best. Thanks for commenting.
Can't agree more!
Excellent a words. He's a worker
Thanks for watching and commenting. Yup, once you start working, you like to keep it going and work. Best wishes for your journey.
In the Master Class series, Neil Gaiman said, “it’s better to finish something that is bad than spend ages on something brilliant that you’ll never finish”.
What the misunderstanding here is finishing a 1st draft and turning in a 1st draft (especially if you’re on assignment). You never want to turn in a 1st draft but you should always finish it. Just get to the end.
If you know what you’re doing and do you due diligence in the pre-writing stages, your pages will come out fine. If you’re writing your 1st screenplay, just get to the end. That’s the most important part.
Writing is re-writing.
Thanks, Andrew for commenting and watching. Indeed - writing is re-writing and it's never done even when it starts production. Yes, it's vital to finish that draft. You are correct, due diligence is the key and you never turn in your first draft right after you type THE END. I leave myself ample time when I finish before my deadlines to go over the screenplay to check and recheck, making tiny changes like dialogue or small edits, but there is no time for major rewrites at that point. It's about 98% there, meaning what I have accomplished from the outline, and must be. I agree that you shouldn't spend ages to finish something and writers during their first scripts should learn how to become more efficient writers under a deadline and schedule. It won't be such of a shock when they start working professionally and it might even harm them if they don't have the ability to work at the creative top of their game under a deadline.
We've enjoyed Neil's 'Masterclass' as well. Thank you for watching.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat I agree with you 100%. Everyone is at a different level in their writing journey. For those, like yourself, there is a tremendous amount of pressure to turn in work in a timely manner. But the reason why you're in the position is because you have put your time in, you've made major break throughs in your writing and you've succeeded at it.
You have developed that keen eye to know when your first draft is "crap" or not. But you can also clearly identify it in the pre-writing process as well. But to give word of encouragement to the new writers, like myself, I do think it's important to get to the finish line rather than identifying the validity of the work and making changes or discarding what was created. Otherwise, too much time is spent on "wordsmithing". That is one of the main reasons why new writers can't break through the 2nd act. That was my HUGE mistake on my first script. It took me forever to finish and I nearly gave up a couple of times because I thought I was never going to get through nor did I think it was ever going to be good enough. But I finished it anyway. I put it aside for now to work on other material and plan to go back to it.
The only slightly confusing statement for me in this interview was the difference in finishing a 1st draft and turning in one. That's why I commented.
Other than that, great interview.
Thank you for your sound wisdom. I look forward to seeing more of your work on screen.
I told myself I got it . I can , I really can . Focus 💭✏
You got this! Just do it! Wishing you the best on your writing journey.
How much time (outline included) on average do you get for writing a first draft on a feature?
How much time on average do you get, after you receive producers notes, do you get to write the second draft?
BTW, Mark is awesome and a pro at TV movie thrillers.
Thanks, Brade! The time varies per project. I've had two weeks to a month to work on an outline. Plenty of time if that's all you do. And the outline even goes through rewrites until everyone agrees on it and you are given the green light to "go to pages." The second draft time varies, but it's usually half the amount of time as given on the first draft - and it should be ,as the work on each successive draft should be less and less - not more and more. If it's more due to the writer's issues, you get stuck in development hell and have the potential of being fired and they bring in another writer because you are not executing the notes properly and messing up the development. Also there are times when the producers want sweeping changes as they have changed their minds about the story, and this causes more rewrites. You have to be on your toes and ready for anything once you turn in that solid first draft. Anything less will diminish their view of your ability and confidence you were the right writer for the job.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat Wow. Great info there. Just to clarify. You said 2 weeks to a month for the outlines. So you've pitched an idea and they like it. Then they give you 2 weeks to a month to outline and first draft?
@@bradebronson8835 No, that's just the time to work on the outline by itself for its first draft. The outline can and does go through revisions and edits/rewrites before it's signed off on and I'm able then to get the green light to go to script pages. First drafts in the business can range from four weeks to ten weeks depending on your particular deal with a producer. That's in addition to the weeks or month for outline. So overall, from idea, one sheet, outline, to final script, including all the reading times from producers and their notes delivered -- could take six months or longer depending. It's not a quick process by any means. The second draft and others you are given less time as the script should be in better shape with each successive draft. One hopes! I've come in on projects that were many drafts in (one was 8) and they had to let the writer go because the notes were not being executed properly.
The reason you you write the first draft knowing its bad is because mostly everything is a gamble at that stage. An idea might be viable later on and it might not work, but why throw it away? And it's not a waste of time to write a bad first draft because you have to start somewhere. It doesn't need to be good until it's done.
He clearly explains why your way of thinking doesn't work for professional screenwriters. Did you watch the video before commenting?
If you need to write a first 'shitty' draft for yourself, then by all means knock yourself out! But don't EVER hand that in to a Producer who is paying you mucho dinero!!
@@_wtf Preach, Christian! Thanks for commenting and watching.
It doesn't have to be crap. It just has to be done.
Indeed! We need to get it done, Scott. Thanks for commenting and watching.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat Your interview was much better than my comment. I was coming from non-professional laboring on his/her first few screenplays. You were talking about a working pro.
But...you're right; don't turn in garbage. (But for me, I just need to get a first draft done, because I'm still learning my best way.)
People don't fully imagine their story and then wonder why their first draft is bad.
If I've got a great story then that first draft is going to be awesome; then what happens is people want to add ideas because they're inspired by the story, or maybe a scene or plot point needs to be moved, but it should be done with excitement that the film is going to be bolstered by the changes, not hurt by them.
Very very helpful.....awesome one...
I agree with Mark
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Yes the first draft must be solid, as detailed as possible.
Indeed! Thanks for commenting!
What if one goes back and forth a number of times before one gets to the end. I am working on my first Screenplay and I have already revised the first scene more times than I can count before I have made it to the end. I don't write anything straight through. Each day before I start my labor, I go back several pages. And, once in a while, I go all the way back to the beginning and spend my whole day revising what I have already done.
My friend is using your method and he's been on page 60 for the past four months. My first question is if you spent enough time on an outline/treatment/beat sheet before you started writing your script? What you're doing is the reason for a SECOND DRAFT or THIRD, etc. Many writers use this method of rewriting and going back when writing, and you will get stuck and the script will take so much longer to ever finish. I don't have that luxury when working. When you start working professionally, it's all about deadlines. You will never go without a deadline your entire working career. The idea is to train yourself now to write a first draft STRAIGHT THROUGH with a solid writing schedule. If you allow a missed day, it leads to two, and more interruptions, and you lose your writing momentum and living in that world. The idea of a first draft is to complete it, and let it settle, read it yourself first before you give it to anyone, and then let your trusted circle read it for notes. THEN come back at it with fresh eyes. Everyone has their own methods, but you will certainly find it hard to meet your daily page count when rewriting while writing. Thanks for commenting!
Well it's not like I'm writing bad on PURPOSE.
Interesting stuff!
PREACH! #TeamSolidOUTLINE
The worst...is leaving a page blank...
Yes, a page of something might be better than a page of nothing. But that something may have to be rewritten or thrown out completely.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat no worries...the pages are blank again...
A bad first draft is better than no draft at all. At least you then have something concrete to work with.
Yes, but if you have to totally rewrite it -- you have wasted time. In addition, as I mention in the interview, you will not be able to start a script without an outline when you start working professionally.
How can you know your first draft is going to be bad until you write it? And if you start with an outline, how do you know your outline is crap unless you write from it?
There are no guarantees a first draft is going to be excellent -- but can raise your chances that it will be good by working on an outline/treatment before. The fist draft certainly doesn't have to be perfect, but why try and work out the issues in the script pages, when you could do that in the outline and save all the rewriting time. You hope the project is to be great because of your fantastic concept. Now you have to execute a draft that matches that fantastic concept. The DNA of your story and characters lives in that precious first draft. The outline/treatment is your first chance to work out many of the issues so you don't have to face them doing multiple rewrites and trying to find your story while writing the pages of the script.
It can be crap "if you're good!"
Ok now where is a guide to doing outlines?
My first pancake is always good.
LOL! Thanks for watching and commenting!
Didn't ernest hemingway say "the first draft of anything is shit"
He did, but it doesn't have to be!
These Rock!
A screenplay wants to write itself, just hang your finger over some letters and sit back, enjoy the ride.
Right? I think some writers learn toward this thinking. Why study the craft or care about format? Or even an outline? Some of the greatest painters did outlines before they painted the picture. And especially when you start working as a professional writer in Hollywood you will need to know how to do proper outlines. Thanks for watching and commenting.
I write for the pleasure, but in terms of outlines, because i'm not writing professionally i create a mental outline in my head over months ( also a lot of scatter-red notes) i always know when it's time to start the ride and sit down at the laptop, often i begin writing the script in a notepad to see if it's even anything worth typing and after a week or two of that it gets good and i begin again but in the laptop and that's kind of the rewrite of the penned stuff and the launching pad for the actual real script. i love it, i don't do it for any dreams or fantasy career ( I'm 50 ) i just really enjoy seeing where it takes me, it's purely a pleasure thing for me. only my closet sees the finished screenplays. (;
@@RawHeadRay Writing for the pleasure is terrific and takes the pressure off having to sell something. And who knows, someday you may want to throw your script into the ring and see what happens. Thanks for commenting and best wishes with your writing journey.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat Thank you, i may just do that but only if i get goosebumps, so far just pure pleasure haha
I think the term vomit script should be replaced with vibe script sure maybe the plot points are wonky but if the writer knows that the tone is there it may be easier to do a cool rewrite including the plot fixes …but don’t show it to anyone by god!
Your first draft is the foundation of your story.
That's the outline...
ok
He's more accomplished than me ( at the moment ).
But Everyone has their own process. There are writers who had 17 drafts before reaching a final draft.
Do what works for you.
You are accomplished because you are writing! Doing 17 drafts works just fine when doing your specs in a protected bubble. You never tell anyone how many drafts it took to get the script to where it is when they read it. It's nobody's business. Let them think you can craft a genius first draft (when it's really #17). Writers who may have written a few scripts will certainly need the time to find their methods and voice, style, learning the craft, etc. -- BUT - let's say after four or five specs, if you rely upon taking 17 drafts with every project you write, this is not going to serve you well if you want to work professionally. An agent or manger will not be happy if you take six months to finish a screenplay to get it into shape to be read. They want to find you work, and that work comes with deadlines your entire career. It's a good idea for those early specs to get the bad ones out of the way, learn, and move toward becoming an efficient writer - meaning having the ability to take a concept (yours or a producer's) and create a superb version of the concept's potential. It's all about execution in a reasonable amount of time. At some point you have to get your material out there after you are "written out" meaning you are happy with your work feel it can stand on its own. Thanks for commenting!
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat Understood
👍 👍
So my first draft has to be perfect?
No. Nothing is PERFECT. But you strive to make a first draft solid. You won't get a chance to turn in a crappy first draft when and if you start working professionally. That is the key. We are training when we write our specs. They rarely sell, so they are calling cards.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat I see. Thank you
@@quixoticalmotionpictures Thanks again for watching and joining the conversation!
Very misleading title.... Your VERY first draft is going to be garbage no matter how well your outline or plan.
The draft you submit for consideration may be "final" in your mind but will always come back with edits and changes.
Wait. You hand in your first draft???
You do when you work professionally. It isn't right after you type THE END, but you obviously go over it with the time you have left, but it generally follows an accepted outline the producers, executives, network, and/or investors have agreed upon.
There is still something called a REWRITE.
So, your first draft needs to be perfect? ;/
It's never perfect. Even after it goes before the cameras. But we try!
This is so narrow minded. It's like telling an artist to sketch in permanent pen rather than pencil.
Mr. FireRotor That analogy makes no sense.
I guess you would have to approach this advice with an open mind, try it, then weigh up the pros and cons of outlining clearly before writing. As Mark says, having an idea where the story is going, and what's supposed to be happening in the scene takes a lot of pressure off of the writer in the first draft process.
No, the sketch is the outline, the first draft is the permanent pen. Spend PLENTY of time on the outline. Get scene cards. It works.
@@saiashwin26 It limits the creative process. I don't have the time or the crayons to explain this to you.
@@Ruylopez778 Thanks for commenting!
Can't help a theory in the back of my head, that the main reason Sanderson hasn't seen a "vomit draft" in the business is that most of the time, those are pounded out "quick and dirty" and then torn apart for those kernels of goodness amid a trough of horsesh*t at the writers' homes... They never see the light of day... and a second, more careful thing is constructed more according to plans and with the dutifully collected kernels of goodness to keep a trail of prizes to follow along...
It might still sound like a waste of time, BUT for some folks, it can be a struggle to strike the first key of the keyboard. That moment when they have the courage to do it at all, might best be taken advantage of before it passes... or the draft may never get done at all... a psychological break to get on pace and start doing rather than dreading.
I'm coming from a TTRPG background... and I like this place to think about how I can refine those points that make the stories from D&D and the like stand out for my Players (other than including their backstories in the Campaign)... BUT I can promise you, the truest "explorative pantser" type writers actually already have a fair idea of where they're going most of the time. Otherwise their story arcs would very much resemble those in my games... AND if you've never played D&D (or an RPG) the story arc consistently looks more like someone's thrown multicolored pasta at the wall, than it could possibly resemble a "conventional story arc" as described in any technical context of "writing" (screenplay or otherwise)...
Oddly, I don't get "lost somewhere in the waste of Act 2"... BUT we tend to slip way the hell "off book" and I end up making everything up as we go until the "climactic end" of a Campaign Module has absolutely NO resemblance to whatever was in the book or box I bought...
I like building my own adventures for exactly that reason. Players are unpredictable and chaotic creatures by nature... SO embrace the chaos!
...BUT I gather this won't likely float in the "professional screenplay" world. ;o)
The vomit draft and the outline serves the exact same purpose, but for different types of writers. It's not so much a "bad first draft", I think that's a misleading way of putting it. Just like nobody sees the outline, nobody sees the vomit draft. You write it because you need to establish the grounds of your story. I guess it comes down to right/left-brain thinkers not being able to get each other. If you're inclined to write a vomit draft, it will not fail you the way Sanderson suggests (with the house metaphor). It's just another kind of outline. And really the outline is just another kind of vomit draft.
Thanks for the comments. As I said, a first draft will not -- and is not perfect. But it doesn't have to be a disaster either. The way to elevate the quality of a first draft, rather than having the second draft a page one rewrite, is to spend the time with the story in an outline/treatment. An outline is not just another vomit draft. You establish the grounds for your story in the outline -- not when you're trying to figure out story while writing the screenplay pages. Screenplays are all about structure. When someone writes a script off the top of their head and "goes with the flow," unless they have tremendous experience, the changes of it traveling off course are great. Sure, you might write an interesting scene, but you can't layer in the important complex storylines that can come from sitting down and working on the story separately from script pages. And as I point out in the interview, you won't have time to vomit out a draft when working professionally, and the outline/treatment is always required before you ever go to script pages. I have a friend trying to "wing it" with his first draft and he is re-writing as he is writing, and he can't get past page sixty in the past four months.
@@MarkSandersonakaScriptcat I do not disagree. I wouldn't write a vomit draft myself. But I'm sure there are great vomit drafters who write mad vomit drafts that do not steer off course in their own minds. If a person really can't stop themselves from writing a vomit draft, they're probably doing it for a good reason. So my point was that a person *inclined* to write a vomit draft would actually get some ground structure done in the process, and for that kind of person it would serve the same purpose as the pre-script outline. Or perhaps you could call it a pre-outline script, something closer to what Al Watts does in the first month of his 90 Day Novel. Just a starting off point. Also: Where a juicy 3 page outline ends and a messy first draft begins, or where a messy first draft ends and a vomit draft begins... I mean, in reality these processes can sometimes blend into each other anyway.
I also think it stands within reason to say that a vomit draft is written by whoever has the *time* to, for whatever reason. They will have to make some sort of an outline anyway so they have to take the long way there. And sure, if you're in Hollywood I'm sure it's totally undoable, but I'm coming at this from a perspective of writing in general. Let's say my aunt wants to write a memoir: I'm not going to complain to her that her pitch can't be sold. Let's say she wants to write her story, or the most important parts of it, as fast as she can. I could say "go for it" and then we can see what we got. It's a start.
Thank you for your reply.
If your story is muddled at the logline stage it's not going to get any clearer by the time you're writing the third act.
Preach! Yes, indeed. Setting off on the journey with no road map might sound exiting to "find your way" -- but there are pitfalls and monsters lurking around various corners and under bridges.
I love hearing about writer's thought process, coming from a traditional painting POV. The way paintings and stories are built is actually very, very similar.
He talks about a great screenwriter who does a lot of the work up front, rather than many people who want to do a "vomit draft." This is similar to two schools of thought in traditional painting: Alla prima/direct ("all at once") vs indirect painting (planning and executing in stages). Alla prima is very popular today, but very very very few artists are good enough to really nail a painting in one shot. On top of this, they tend to do simpler compositions. They don't really do large complex scenes, more like beautiful landscapes or single figures.
But the great artists of history almost ALL did extensive planning. Traditional artists from Da Vinci to Norman Rockwell weren't just doing a "vomit painting" and hoping to pull it together later. Yes, some did, but most didn't.
I'd be interested to hear about research methods of writers, and how much and what kind of research they do before writing.
Thank you, Keith for your insights. I was aware of Michelangelo and Da Vinci being painters who did extensive planning. The Sistine Chapel ceiling wasn't on a whim and going with the flow. Thank you for your comments.
He is 100% right. I had a project with a studio and worked with them on the outline every other day for a month before I even began to right. People have to remember that these studios are taking a gamble every time they put out a film and there is a lot of money on the table.