Problems with Accurascale locomotives - what problems? 10-05-2023
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 พ.ค. 2023
- Problems with Accurascale locomotives - what problems? I tell you how i solved the issues with my locos.
Susannah's TH-cam channel: / @pixie586
Reference page used for obtains the basic set of back EMF figures:
www.southwestdigital.co.uk/PD... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
THANK YOU!!!
I have fixed my Accurascale Class 37 this way. I have set it to this:
CV 5 to 255
CV 6 to 75
Regulation Parameter K (CV 54) to 55
Regulation Parameter I (CV 55) to 80
Very helpful!! Thank you, Graham, and Thank You, Suzanna.
So glad i found this video. My new Accurascale class 37 is having the exact same problems! As I bought it from a model shop I have to go through them first so they can send on to Accurascale for repair, poor guy seems exacerbated with the amount of customers who are coming back with issues! Would love to sort it out myself but as I don't have a rolling road or a programmer it would be nigh on impossible. Wish Accurascale would acknowledge there is problem with the decoders and issue a help sheet as its obviously not just a few isolated cases
Excellent work Graham they are so much better thankyou to susannha for helping people with the same problems thankyou again for the tips and video
Come on Accurascale, get your act together. It appears that the factory don't have very good technical expertise and poor customer service, You should be able to receive the loco, place it on the tracks and it runs.Well done Graham and thanks to Susannah.
Hi Clive and thanks for the comment. Accurascale have now seen this video and I’m sure that they will take notice and act accordingly. They have been good up till now in listening to their customers so let’s hope that they take note and look at the issues which are now appearing for some (not all) folk. Time will tell I guess. Cheers. ………..Graham
To be fair Graham, your analogy of a car wasn’t quite right.
If anything, it actually proves its exactly what you do (tweak) a car.
For example, you buy a car, but want to use it on a specific circuit (or track) - it will have a default set up, but that may not be right for your track or circuit. To get it to run right, you’d tweak it to your track requirements.
It does make me wonder if in certain scenarios, this stock set up is not suitable for some layouts and a unique set of scenarios - aka the hole in the cheese effect. Glad you have got things sorted.
I beg your pardon? Accurascale lead the way in customer service and quality, you literally don’t know what you are talking about.
@@aureol40012I’m sorry but if your comment was correct regarding this company then such videos like this wouldn’t be posted would they! 🤔 Boomer guys like this with their residual cash for this hobby are the bread & butter of any company and should be treated like kings 👑
@@johneaton25 it’s always the old ones with knackered eyes and sausage fingers who moan about quality!! I saw one guy slagging off bits falling off his deltic and he was picking it up and handling it like it was a hammer, not a finely detailed model.
Lovely layout well done to you thank you
Impressive investigative work which clearly has been of benefit to yout viewers. Brilliant!
Many thanks Daniel, I hope it’s been of use to some of the viewers, it’s certainly helped me out! Cheers. ……….Graham
I never have any models sent through the post. I always visit the shop to see what I'm buying and to see it running on their test track. Glad its all sorted out now. Well done Susannah. Lovely little session at the end. All the best.
Hi Tim and thanks for the comment, I don’t really live near a model shop so I don’t have that luxury is not really on for me, I do occasionally go to my nearest one but most of my stuff is bought on line and in this case, Direct from Accurascale. Anyway, all sorted now mate thank goodness and I won’t have to be sending them back. 👍🏻. Cheers. ……….Graham
Thanks Graham for the video, worked a treat on one of my locos, went through the same feelings about what could be wrong with the loco, but happy that my loco has now regained its speed etc, thanks for taking the time to work out the problem.
Paul
That’s fantastic Paul and I’m so glad that you now have working loco that you are now happy with, that’s really pleased me and has made this video worthwhile just with that alone! Well done mate! 👍🏻👍🏻. Cheers. …………Graham
Graham what a great tutorial I really don't know how you remember it all , but thanks for that I really enjoyed it . I can't say I understood it fully , well done all the same . Plus you saved on the postage, what a player you are .
Thank you so much for those kind words John and as always, they are greatly appreciated. I realise that this video might sound a bit complex but really, it was just a case of reading up on the research and doing what it said. The main thing was really to show that some things could be solved without having to send it back as long as you are willing to give it a go. 👍🏻. Cheers. …………Graham
As a relatively new returning modeller, it is great to see this sharing of problem solving. I have a couple of locos on pre order from Accurascale and I hope they resolve your well made points before they arrive! 🙏
That’s brilliant piece of investigation work Graham, they go like rockets now and very smooth, as you say “why should you have to do that” I do hope that Accurascale get to see your video. As I showed you this morning, Accurascale don’t seem to think there’s a problem but more people are saying they have the same issue. I’m sure that all your hard work sorting this out will help others with the same problem, great video my freind cheers Martin
Many thanks Martin for your comment, unfortunately I think any reply from Accurascale if they see this video would be to send models back to them for them to look at and repair or to give a refund. Mmm. I do realise that Accurascale are very willing to help us out if there are issues with their products, I get that but there seems to be quite a few folk now who are finding issues which shouldn’t be there. But hey Ho, I guess we will just have to wait and see if they have learnt anything from these two locomotives and will improve as time goes on which I guess will be the release of the 37’s and I sincerely hope that once they have been in the field for several weeks then all we will here are good things about them - I’m sure (hope) that will be the case. Cheers. ………..Graham
Wow, Graham, what a 180-degree follow-up to the previous video!!! I am happy for you that this is sorted and they are running like thoroughbreds for you now, because they are so brilliant looking. Still, the hassle of such bizarre faults... whether a bad batch of misprogrammed decoders or whatever, makes it hard to get over, but they look sweet running around the layout without issues now! Best wishes and thanks for a great video to potentially help others!
Many thanks Anthony for your comment, I’m just very pleased that I’ve been able to sort the issue out - it was certainly worth having a go myself rather than having to send them back and I’m glad I persevered because they now run great! Cheers. ………..Graham
Hi Graham. First off I am very pleased that you got to the bottom of the problem and well done for researching and then trying out your findings based off the suggestion from Susannah's friend. And well done on Sussannah for going and asking her friend about it. I did think of you today as I was watching a couple of You Tube Channels on the new Class 37 from Accurascale and they were having trouble with power and it starting up with sound switch on. They had to lower a CV. When they did that the loco ran fine. I was going to message you about it but now I've seen this video there is no need to bother. I have a Class 92 which I've mentioned before and whilst I am not experiencing your problems I am certainly going to add this to my 'Graham's answers' pile. One thing I would mention re the Class 92 and not sure if you're having this trouble. Is to do with the NEM pockets. If you have a rake of wagons/coaches above about 3 you'll find the pocket comes out. The loco carries on it's merry way leaving the rake behind. I like the idea of what they are trying but it's not a very good design or implementation. So you may find you have to glue the pocket to the underneath of the loco like I have done. I have spoken to a few people about it and it seems to be a common problem. I mentioned this to Accurascale support and I didn't get the best response. I was disappointed with that. Anyway, I am going on now. Very pleased you've got to the bottom of it and very pleased you get to enjoy the locos. Looking forward to the next video. Tim
Hi Tim and yes, I too have had the same problem with the NEM socket coming out with a rake behind so I just superglued it in place and that works fine now and I don’t see the 92 running off leaving a rake of wagons or coaches left behind! So I don’t understand why the response wasn’t as you wished for from Accurascale. I have also seen that video where the 37 was having problems with the sound on - not good is it and I’m just wondering if it was that one particular model or again, a common occurrence. As I’ve not heard of anyone else having that issue then I can only assume that it’s peculiar to that one model but I may be wrong on that. Cheers. …………Graham
Hello Graham. Thanks for all the time and trouble you spent getting this sorted as well as sharing your experience with us. I’m feeling quite a bit happier and less nervous about my Deltic preorder.
Take care, David
Hi David and I’m glad about that because I feel exactly the same way too. I won’t be quite so fearful on opening the next Accurascale locomotive box now! 👍🏻. Cheers. ………Graham
So pleased you have it all sorted, Graham, I do so hate it when you are grumpy lol, but not without cause. It's a wonderful hobby to be in and I would not change the 66 years I have now been in it. Cheers, Bob.
Blimey Bob - 66 years, that’s amazing! Only 10 years for me so I’m really still just a newbie!! 😂😂. Cheers. ……….Graham
This is fantastic. My first sight of your channel and having seen several other people referencing problems with Accurascale models this is really interesting. Great to see. There are definitely some problems which Accurascale need to address.
Also, you have a great layout. I have subscribed and am now off to check out susannahs channel. Cheers.
Thanks for all your investigations into this problem. It has certainly educated me in this aspect of Dcc. I was going to purchase one of the new C37’s from Accurascale, but in the end opted for the Bachmann equivalent, mainly because of their more stable reputation, and which I am very happy with. As you say a new model should perform perfectly out of the box, especially given rising costs asked for by manufacturers of these models.
Thanks Graham for a valuable service to the model rail community. My Accurascale locos seem OK for now but I haven't run them enough yet to see. The back emf paper you found will be a helpful tool in case something goes awry. Thanks again. As you say we shouldn't be doing this!
Many thanks for the kind comment Peter, it’s greatly appreciated and I hope that this video is of help to some. Cheers. ……..Graham
Well done Graham for sorting these loco's, this is the beauty of DCC when you can adjust the BEMF. I have a dear friend who explained this to me some years ago, having a two tire layout on DC, locos (under load) going down on my helix `hunt` and slow down going up. He said that if I could adjust the BEMF this would not happen. Good to see the two loco's in question are running like a dream, thanks for sharing take care regards Barry..
Many thanks Barry and now I understand BEMF a little then I’m sure it will help me out in the future should I have these issues again but hopefully not! Cheers. ………..Graham
Really lovely layout, and some great tips re BEMF.
ESU chips are often set to "learn" so running in is important... you can get some real issues if your chip learns bad settings.. as you have seen.. so the reset using CV54 is VERY important for ESU Chips..
I had a friend who consisted two brand new loco's... one of them "learnt" that it was moving without trying.. so it decided it did not need to power the motor and so would not run at all..
A reset by CV54 fixed all the problems..
Hi mate and I would normally agree with you about the CV 54 trick but not in this case. When I did this to the class 92 and went to check the settings afterwards then they were all set to zero which is obviously wrong. After I put in my own settings and adjusting them accordingly then I got the results you could see today in the video. I agree though that setting the CV54is the very first port of call, just a shame it didn’t work on this one particular occasion. Cheers. ………..Graham
Graham thanks for the video update , i did have the same with my deltic and got a full refund in the end but im am very happy you got yours solved and like you i didnt know much how to solve it as it did my patience in after 2 weeks very frustrating to say the least .I stripped it down looking for some sort of wireing fault then the decoder then came across your video and now im satisfied i had the exact same problem and it has put me off buying accurascale for now . Great videos you put up graham iv learnt quite a bit from you many thanks kev
I think that DCC is a complex system of controlling a model locomotive and I hope that Acurascale can get their heads around the settings required for the smooth operation of their locomotives that are fitted with DCC. An update to the instructions is required when DCC is fitted to their locomotives. Well done. Now is the time for the staff to get some training on the complexity of DCC.
Thanks Graham, very informative, and well explained.👍
Thank you very much Dennis and I’m so pleased that you found it of interest. Cheers. ………..Graham
Brilliant video
Just telling you I'm Typing halfway through the video in the name of fairness.
Very fascinating video Graham and yes you're right most of the time it is actually the DCC chip. I had this issue with a hornby TTS tornado and it was all to do with the back EMF.
This has sparked my interest as i have a bachmann pannier which slows down after a certain amount of time running. Also got a bachmann 37 which has 'the pull' you know when you see it so I've got to get rid of back EMF from those 2. And to add some icing on top the 37 has a limited top speed. I'm not planning to run it at full whack as my baseboard track joins aren't that great but it's nice to have the option.
Another one i had issue with was a bachmann G2A with a bachmann 21 pin, turns out the EMFs on bachmann chips tend to be higher as they are set up for heavy american locos, not really light british steamers so i had to program it all out back EMF, start voltage etc. There's a lot to learn here! Thank you Graham!
Love the castle, does that make you the earl of lakeside? 😊
Hi Graham so glad that you've got it sorted and well done Susannah for the suggestion. Thanks for sharing. I'll have a look at the back EMFs on my juddering new bachmann 47 to see if it works. Like you I'd pulled away from getting anymore new 47s as I was disappointed. Anyway I'll give it a go and hopefully get a similar result thanks again atb Andy
Very happy to see you have managed to fix the problems with these locos👍👍👍 I don’t have a 92 but after seeing your stobart rail I am seriously tempted. I think that I have been extremely lucky so far as none of my Deltics has had a problem (yet) I even have 6 Hattons class 66’s that don’t wobble and I’ve only lost 1 axle box so far 😃 I really hope that Accurascale gets these annoying little problems sorted out as I have several Deltics, class 37’s and class 66’s on order and don’t have anywhere near your level of patience to be able to sort their problems. 🤔🤨🤯🤬😭. 🤣🤣🤣
Hi Graham thank for your very informative video. I’ve looked on the south west digital site and found the article on back emf adjusted one of my Deltics now running a lot better. Thanks for that information. Regards Brian.
That’s brilliant Brian and really pleased for you, glad it all worked out for you mate. Cheers. …………Graham
Graham, I have been following you since early 2013 when I returned to the hobby and have been so impressed with your contribution to our hobby. This latest video is so informative and helpful, not just for the OO guys but even for us in N who are experiencing issues in the collaboration between Revolution and Accurascale. These models cost a small fortune, £175 + £120 for a sound decoder (for N gauge) fitted the sound decoder and established that the actual PCB hadn't been fitted correctly at the factory, it's just not good enough. We're, somewhat begrudgingly, prepared to pay a sum that once upon a time was my mortgage, and have to 'hope' that the product arrives in a fit and proper state... The decoder should be programmed at the factory where final assembly takes place, but the quality check is evidently not up to snuff; I'll forgo some of the detail for the assurance of getting the basics right, but it shouldn't come to that.
Hi mate and thanks for the comment. All what you say is true, I think the annoying thing about all this (not just Accurascale but all manufacturers) is the inconsistency that some models work just fine and others don’t and have the exact same issues. I honestly don’t know what the answer is apart from manufacturers doing spot checks on their stock to see if they can see any issues before despatching to their customers. Cheers. ……….Graham
@@GrahamFoulston Indeed. Having spent more time than I care to remember standing at production lines throughout China and SE Asia, I can understand how these things come about - I think that the loss of staff in China through the pandemic, compounded by China being closed to visitors from overseas until recently (preventing on-site visits from the UK based businesses), may have had an impact which we're experiencing, but it doesn't stop the businesses that we buy the models from taking additional measures such as increased sampling. It will be interesting to follow.
Great video her graham, nice or hear that you have sorted the issues out with your accurascale locomotives, I myself have had issues with their locomotives but not the ones you are explaining in this video most likely because I run a dc layout and not a dcc layout, the main issue I had with the 55 was parts falling off due to not being glued in place and the common bogie chain issue, for my class 92 I had a serious problem with this because due to my excessive handling of the model due to taking it off and putting it on the track and fitting the detail the Railfreight lettering had started to rub off so I had to buy a set of transfers to replace them, the6 are jus5 mine at the moment and hopefully I won’t have anymore, hope you can start enjoying your accurascale locomotives now.
It seems that your main problem has been with bits falling off David, I have to admit that the only issue I have had as regards that are the chains on the Deltic coming off and trailing along with the bogie, so in the end I just took them all off, they were more trouble than they were worth - great for a static model but not for a working model. I would be a little concerned that the livery is coming off already - not good. Cheers. ……….Graham
That’s useful information Graham as I have a Class 37 on order . So far my Class 92 runs ok. I’ve heard of Back EMF but never really understood it 😀
Glad now you have 2 great locos.
Cheers Kev
Hi Kev and thanks for the comment mate, pleased that your 92 is running ok. Like you, up until yesterday I had heard of BEMF but never really delved into it, I never really had the need to do so to be honest. But the great thing is I now have two locos that I can proudly run on the layout without any issues. Cheers. …………Graham
Well done.... its great that you got help from other modellers and the Model Shop. As for the response you got from Accurascale it does sound like there was a communication problem and the models had unusual issues. Having said that some modellers are proud of the fact that they adjust ALL the settings on their models. In fact some TH-camrs spend 30mins doing this and that to a model before they "Rate it". Model Trains have come such a long way since I was a kid. I fondly remember running my trains around at 'light speed" disappointed that they couldn't make the radius 1 Hornby curve of my train set oval track. I had no idea how to clean them and sold them back to the Model Shop as non runners when a good clean might of done the trick.
Nowadays you need Big Money, 6ft+ curves and a degree in technical engineering to set up an engine and your layout. Well done for having the courage to sort it out yourself. I do not see this as a 'problem" for Accurascale or "the Factory". I praise them for making the effort to offer a fine scale, detailed products at a competitive price. This issue is an oddity and should not detract from these fine features. Basically you fixed it and you should let them know how it was fixed. Next model you get. Check it over for faults, run it 30mins in each direction and check ALL the settings. I hope you can enjoy your new models and now have a greater appreciation for the complexities of modern model trains.
Hi George and thank you for the comment. No matter what loco from any manufacturer I buy, I always, without fail, run it in for half an hour in both directions at half speed and run it a further 10 minutes at 3/4 speed in both directions. I am also mindful that these days, the models are far more intricate than locos of years gone by and have to be treated with the respect they deserve. All my locos are cared for and looked after and regularly serviced when appropriate. But in this instance these were two brand new locos which had issues when delivered so I had no control over that so do I try and fix them or send them back, in the case of the Deltic it was sent back to Accurascale to be repaired, but when it came back it was still not running correctly - hence this procedure as a last resort which thankfully worked - on both locos. Cheers. ………..Graham
@@GrahamFoulston My mistake.... It did sound like you had done everything you could. I am glad that it got sorted out eventually.
Hi Graham, very helpful video, I have used EMF in the past which helped me. My Deltic seems ok, but have not tried it for a while. I did have an issue with my Accurascale Class 92, one of the pantographs was not working, which they resolved immediately. I do have an issue with the lighting on my Transpennine since I installed a sound decoder nobody seems to have an answer for.
Graham, Good on you! Back to a source of pleasure!!😊😊. Cheers! Stephen.
Indeed Stephen, it’s really nice to have these two locos running as they should. 👍🏻. Cheers. ………..Graham
Fantastic work Graham, really brilliant news for all the problem locos out there...of which there are many! The question is, why the hell haven't Accurascale discovered this and briefed out the relevant info to all their customers in a clear and concise manner? They are ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL!
Hi mate and thanks for the comment, I think the problem here is that generally then most folk are happy and there aren’t that many people with this that I had, sure there are some but in the big scheme of things and the numbers they must have sold then mine (and a few others) are in a small minority. I have to admit that because I’ve only bought two locos from Accurascale and both have been faulty then I had lost confidence in them. I just hope that they are learning from these faults for further improvements on their next models. Cheers. ……….Graham
@@GrahamFoulstonAccurascale models are known to me for shedding their parts and seemingly disassembling themselves as they circuit the layout, as well as having performance/motor issues too, as you've experienced Graham. I sent my three 92s back to the retailer for a refund (all had the motor running issues). I did stick with the two secondhand Deltics which are a bit twitchy at times so I may try the CV54 reset trick! My 37 seems ok at the moment, although it does have the documented sound cutting out on start up issue. I have heard of many many people having issues with various Accurascale items so they do need to up their game somewhat. Their details are superb but they need to be more robust and fully reliable.
As for the newly tooled Bachmann 47s and 37s, like you I am smitten! They are really brilliant in most respects straight out of the box. Just a tad better bass on the sound (bigger speaker needed) would be good, a built in stay-alive and a driver; these are my only criticisms really. I always wait until someone is offering a 30% discount though before buying as the RRPs are so ridiculously high, obscenely high!
You may like some of the footage on my YT channel, if you haven't already looked.
Thank you again for discovering a fix for the Accurascale locos Graham.
Regards Julian
Thank you so much for this! I had the same Deltic issues and returned it back in the day. Fortunately, I tried KOYLI afterwards which runs with no issues apart from the vibrating speaker (so reduced the volume for now). Again, thank you for sharing, every day is a school day...
Indeed mate, I think I learn something everyday in this hobby which to be honest, is a good thing. 👍🏻. Cheers. …………Graham
Put a bit of hotmelt at the joint of the speaker and the speaker hole or a bit of masking tape oin the joint of the housing.
Brilliant well done mate
Ha ha! You lost me at EMF, then I was back with you when you started to explain it, then I was lost again when you showed the graphic! I think I'm out of my depth with clockwork!!! Glad you got it sorted as they are lovely locos. I particularly like the Deltic, but as I have three (very much) older versions, they'd just look crap next to it! Cheers
I'm so glad you've sorted these problems out Graham! We shouldn't have to do this! As you say locos should work first time out of the box, full stop! Otherwise they are not fit for purpose!
Yep, couldn’t agree more with you but it does seem that the more complicated or highly complex these models get then more issues arise, but having said that, these two models are no more complex than the Bachmann 47bi bought. I don’t know what’s going on, I really don’t. Cheers. ……….Graham
Experts are hard to find....... Very glad I found you Graham....
My class 92 went back so many times it was repaired, exchanged and then finally after I burnt my fingers on the body picking it up after a running session I cancelled the whole lot. When I posted on a model railway forum the trouble I was having I was bullied in public and especially in the DMs. I have since cancelled all my pre orders quit the forums and deleted my accounts. I haven’t been in my railway shed for over a month. The whole thing has left such a sour taste I was so stressed over it all.
I've had a similar experience both with my 92 and MK5s - both the products and issues on a forum with posts being removed - was it RMweb for you? Don't let them get you down - the number of people who have approached me saying they've had the same issues reassures me I'm not just "unlucky" and their techniques are doing nothing to convince people!
Thanks Graham and Susannah.
Many thanks Nick and much appreciated sir. Cheers. ……….Graham
Methinks you undersell yourself. Once given a clue as to what might be a solution you have researched and experimented to find the right result. All power to you and a big kudos to Susannah for pointing you in the right direction
Thank you so much very much for this video and the information in it hopefully my 2 class 92s will be running better after I try it it’s just a shame Accurascale seems to have the wrong attitude to there customer service and there customers have had to sort this for them thank you again neale
Hi Neale and thanks for the comment and glad you found it of use to you and hopefully your two class 92’s will run a little better once you’ve tweaked them a little. Cheers. ………..Graham
I am convinced that the guy doing the repairs is not up to thejob
I've ordered a Deltic from Accurascale in the next batch. I'll be saving this video just in case. Cheers Graham.
Glad you got your locomotives running properly
My Deltic was returned to Accurascale along with my TPE coaches. After I finally got them back I decided to take a look, the Deltic could not complete a full circuit of my layout without falling over, it’s the only loco that does! While falling the chains fell off once again so they were ripped off and threw across the room, the bogies were catching on pipe work and while flexing the paint came off, further parts were catching so they ended up being ripped off as I was in no mood. For the part it ran would only get up to what I would say was half speed so it looks like adjustments are needed. Unfortunately it ended up back in the box and in the nearest bin bag ready to be chucked! Have not yet opened the TPE coach pack
Oh dear Geoff, that sounds a total disaster story and would definitely get in touch with Accurascale and ask for a complete refund which I’m sure (hope) they would give you. Better that than leaving it the bin to be chucked. I do understand how you feel though, that great feeling when it’s finally delivered, the unboxing and excitement as you place it on the track, only to be let down with a bang when it behave like yours did - not good. Hope you get it sorted out with Accurascale mate. Cheers. …………Graham
Hi Graham, I have a 55 Deltic and it has a faulty motor that runs at 0.895 micro amps on no load and a burnt out decoder, yes the speaker in mine required two screw that were missing. Accurascale are sending me a new decoder and motor which I will be fitting as I am in Australia. With Accurascale help I was able to fault find the loco in a morning, and thanks to you I will be checking the CV settings when I get the parts.
Great news that you have got them stored 👍
Well done Graham, old school, never give up. I would myself have thought that they would have made sure that all was correct before sending them back to yourself. The quality of Accurascale needs to be sorted and quickly.
Hi Paul and thanks for the comment. I think these issues need to be put into perspective as I’m sure (hope) that the majority of the locos out there are running as they should - but that is an assumption rather than a fact - I honestly don’t know. I have been very unfortunate in that both my locos were showing the same symptoms but I do know that many out there have put there locos on the track and found no issues. It’s a difficult one but at least I have now sorted mine out without it being returned to Accurascale which is fine by me although I admit that I shouldn’t had to have done this. I’m sure Accurascale are now aware of these issues and are looking into it. Cheers. …………Graham
Hi Graham, I am so pleased my friend, that you have managed to sort out these two locos by making adjustments to the motor back EMF.
I would have thought that when a company developed a new loco and fitted it with a particular brand of decoder, that they would, as part of that development, determine the ‘nominal’ settings for that decoder and ensured that all locos manufactured had these settings applied, prior to boxing up for despatch, to ensure that the user can operate the loco, straight out of the box, without issue. The user may then choose to ‘optimise’ the configuration variable (CV) values to meet their particular requirements, but should not need to do so, in order to enable the loco to work satisfactory.
I trust your video will be of immense value to others with your issues. Thumbs up to Susannah Joaquim too, for obtaining the solution. Best, Jason.
Hi Jason, I think I have just been unfortunate with these two locos, as I said in the video, there must be hundreds of satisfied customers out there who bought a Deltic and/or a 92 and are completely happy with it. This obviously didn’t happen in my case for whatever reason but the crux is that it’s now sorted and I can now run these on the layout without any issues. I’m just glad that I now know that it’s nothing to do with my layout or controller! 👍🏻. Cheers. …………Graham
I'm so glad you've sorted it, there's nothing more frustrating than these sort of problems. I think I'll stick to my analogue system. I take my hat off to you for getting your head around this. As far as I'm concerned for the last half hour you may have been talking in jappenese or chinese. Well done mate, I'm really pleased for you. Eddy xx
Many thanks Eddy for your kind comment mate, it’s greatly appreciated. I have to admit that after reading that page then I had to take a big sigh and start again because I too felt that I was trying to read a book in a foreign language but it eventually all sunk in and I was able to fix the issue - albeit after almost a days work! Cheers. ………..Graham
good for you eddy- stick to good,sensible . simple old fashioned uncomplicated DC analog !! you know it makes sense as its stood the test of time !
Excellent sequence. Which CV settings did you change and to which values to bring about such a remarkable transformation? Thanks.
Hi Graham, good job again I have learned something new! Dare I ask which Deltic have you pre-ordered?
Steve
Great Stuff Graham , Accurascale really are top quality locomotives at a GREAT price point mate
Hi David and I totally agree, even though I have had issues with these two locos, I still rate Accurascale as No 1 overall, both in price and quality. As long as they can button down on some of the issues then there won’t be anyone to touch them in my opinion. Cheers. ……….Graham
So so glad you got them sorted Graham, really thought we were going to lose you through being dismayed by the two locomotives, but just like a true engineer you persevered and found the solution! Bet it kept you awake pondering on not being beaten by them, my 92 arrived with issues like a burnt out sound decoder then a 6 function decoder, finally sent it back and to Accurascales credit they sent a brand new one and runs faultlessly, I’m wondering now if the settings on the decoder may have been the issue rather than a dodgy motor? I must admit I mess around with the cv’s to suit my layout but that’s a choice not a necessity to ensure smooth running, great to see them stretching their legs finally 😊 cheers Darrell
Hi Darrell and thanks for the comment mate, a burnt out decoder? Blimey, not heard of that one before! I do delve into some CV’s but I’ve never gone into the back EMF CV’s before, so this was a first for me. That was good that Accurascale eventually sent you a brand new replacement and pleased that it runs faultlessly. 👍🏻👍🏻. Cheers. ……….Graham
Glad you got it sorted out, DCC sure comes with its complications. A lot of people are quick to jump on Accurascale for this, give them a chance to learn from what has been their first 2 locomotives (although interesting to know if their Irish locos have had similar issues). If they don't learn from their mistakes then by all means, they deserve flak and just because they're everyone's favourite manufacturer right now does not mean they should be exempt from criticism.
Hopefully they sort this out and figure out exactly how this is happening. At least you have 2 might fine locos working well now!
Hi Simon and thanks for the comment. I think after doing this then it’s obvious that this is an issue with the ESU V5 decoder rather than an inherent fault with the loco itself. It appears (although I can’t confirm) that the main culprit is that V5 decoders no longer support the CV54 trick and that it instead ‘learns’ automatically the characteristics as the loco is driven. How true that is I don’t know but this is what I have read elsewhere. Whatever it was or is then my two decoders certainly were not learning as the loco was being driven hence why I had to go in and manually set it to the best of my ability. Cheers. ………..Graham
Well done! Congratulations for getting to grips with the problem. But! you shouldn't have had to do all of this!
Hi Graham, just love your site and to see what you are doing with the layout. But yesterday when you ran loco's around the track you could see the castle all lit up with coloured spot lights, we have seached the net for some and cannot find any can you please tell us to where these are available.
Hi Graham , this is good news . I have a Hornby class 67 with Legmanbiffo V5 sound decoder that runs a bit erratic at mid speed , no adjustment on CV 6 . I have looked up about BEMF so I am going to do the CV54 reset and see how it goes .........Cheers. Peter
Hi Graham, What a struggle to get those running properly.
I much prefer ESU decoders and haven’t had those issues. Normally CVs 54, 29, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 sort it out. However, the may I ask where the table you showed came from?
Hopefully we can have a chat at GETS, we missed each other last year.
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie and thank you for your comment. The page I used was from South West Digital which has a wealth of information but this is the particular page I used:
www.southwestdigital.co.uk/PDF/SWD%20LSV4%20Motor%20back%20EMF%20Setup.pdf
Scroll down the PDF page and you will see a table which shows a basic set of numbers to start from - a datum if you like.
But read all the pages first because it does explain it all very well.
Yes, it would be good to catch up again and we can do this when I go to GETS in October, I shall look forward to that! 👍🏻👍🏻. Cheers. ………….Graham
Thanks Graham, very much appreciated. I shall print it off and pop it into my ESU file.
Stay safe mate, regards, Charlie
Hello Graham, thanks for sharing this. I have both models also, and whilst no issues (yet) with the Deltic, my sound fitted 92 has been a problem. Being in the US, rather than returning the model, Accurascale sent me a replacement motor which I have installed and performed the self calibration. The new motor restored the operation above 66% and now varies speed all the way to 100% - which I could not achieve by varying the CVs, so that is an improvement. I am though curious what your final values ended up at for CV 51-56 as I'd like to compare with the auto calibration values. If they are close I might leave alone, but if not perhaps there is some room for improvement. Thanks.
Hello Graham so glad you got your locos sorted I’m having similar issues with my class 92 just wondering if you could post the cv settings for cv 52 to 55 ,I’ve written down my cv values,reset the decoder tried cv 54 and nothing happened at times it runs fine other times it slows to a crawl and my Dcc concepts meter normally sits at around 0.43 amps but went up to 1.22 amps with the 92 being the only loco running today.Thanks
Graham ******Important Update ****Perspective***** My latest Accurascale class 37, Shapfell, has now also gone faulty and had to be sent back. That's 7 faulty out of 9 locos bought so far! (of various classes).
After exhaustive testing it was found to be the MOTOR, yet again! The ESU decoder was checked, the CVs double checked and it was also swapped out in to my other Accurascale class 37 to confirm that it was good. It definitely was operating correctly.
There is an ongoing problem with the motors failing, usually after about 2 or 3 hours of use. I had the same problem in their 92s and 55s. I presume it's the same motor/manufacturer for all classes. Hatton's 66s also suffered this motor failure too and some Bachmann 37s from previous toolings (See Peter Dixon's channel, Torridon Road. He swapped out 5 faulty class 37 motors on one of his episodes a year or two ago. Even the new replacements he bought direct from the Bachmann Spares website were faulty!) Remember, you even said that Accurascale changed out your class 55's motor because it was faulty!
This is not to over criticise Accurascale for the sake of it, as some people seem to jump down my throat for mentioning any negative experiences here on YT. It is only to help and assist others who may be scratching their heads or in the same place that you were a few weeks ago, wondering what the problems were caused by with your locos and driving yourself crazy, doubting your layout and your controllers.
I appreciate that your BEMF CVs were wrong and that fixed those particular poor performance issues. This is something else to bare in mind too, but the motors do fail, so it's more than one issue here.
For me this usually manifests as erratic running initially, and then slow running. The Alpha meter reading also jumps around all over the place, drawing excessive current and draining down the voltage in a constantly changing chaotic manner.
To be clear, Accurascale's service and after sales customer service has been excellent (so far) which is why I have continued to purchase from them. However, my patience wearing a little thin now with their unacceptable loco reliability/failure rate. I do hope Accurascale properly address this critical problem before it becomes their Achilles' heal. They have brought hope to the market place with their innovations and wonderfully detailed models at sensible prices, so, for the sake of the hobby, I really want them to succeed.
Hi Graham. I am an electrician and I have installed inverter drives for ac motors for many years. In my experience all of these drives have to be tuned to the motors which they are controlling. In more recent years these drives have an auto tune function which relieves you of all the faff and greatly speeds up installation. It seems it’s time for a function of this kind for decoders. This would then take care of any problems caused by varying degrees of anomalies between various motors which I think is the route problem. Regards.
Well done Graham we have 2 class 55 at our club that has the same problem that you descrived and our problem is that we are in Wesern Australia so sending them back is a really big pain in the backside best regards Bill from WA
Hi Bill and thanks for the comment. Hopefully rather than sending the locos back then tweaking these settings may solve the problems for you. Hope it all works out for you. Cheers. …………Graham
Graham, do you check the back emf on all your locos [ to see if alterations make any improvements to their running ] or are you quite happy to leave it as is and just run them straight out of the box?.
Well done Graham. I personally would send the info to Accurascale. I'm not a modeller but I watch yours and many other videos on their models. I must say, from what I've seen, like you say, their models look fantastic. I know your a bit narked with them but I think.they could benefit from your video. So when their models go out to their customers, they do work straight out the box. I think they'd be daft not to take your findings on board.
Well done to Susanna and by the way, what product knowledge that guy in the model shop has too.
Glad you've got em going though Graham. You've turned the Deltic into Concorde.😂
Hi Mickey and thanks for the comment, Accurascale are now fully away of these and a few other problems and I have no doubt that they are working hard behind the scenes to rectify these issues - time will tell I guess with future releases. Cheers. ………..Graham
@@GrahamFoulston Your welcome young sir.
Hi Graham, i had a motor issue with a Dapol Hymek, tried everything with Dapol's advice but never explored back EMF. I wonder if that was the issue? All the best
Hello Graham, excellent video and it's nice to get things sorted. On your previous videos you showed the Deltic had current draw problems with high amp readings showing on your meter. I've missed whether this was sorted by Accurascale as you talk about decoder back EMF problems here. Has the high current draw been sorted? I have a Deltic in for repair at Accurascale at present due to high current draw (similar amps to yours) but it is only a DC model and hence no decoder. Therefore I'm wondering if the current draw problem you had was fixed. Thanks.
Hi mate and yes that was sorted, Accurascale replaced the motor on the Deltic so all good as regards current draw. Cheers. ………..Graham
Back EMF. What larks! Well done for having the patience to get to the bottom of this. I think the green Deltic is (possibly) my favourite loco ever.
Would back EMF take away the pain I've had since that loft-ladder fall in 2014?
Hi mate and thanks for the comment, unfortunately I don’t think my solution would help your back pain, if I could help you out I would! 😂😂. Cheers. ………..Graham
@@GrahamFoulston Cheers Graham!
Hello Graham, thought I would add my twopeneth. I had two class 92 BOTH had same problem as you speeding up and slowing down, both returned for refund.
I do hope altering the BEMF is a long term solution for you, however as I only have DC analogue and therefore I cannot alter CVs, I am really wondering if the BEMF is actually the problem? Both loco ran fine for a few days then problem started, I have had this problem previously with other manufacturer (Bachmann) and at the moment I have a new retooled Heljan class 86, only 6 month old which was fine but now speeding up/slowing down. I have taken it to my local repair shop who have advised me it is probably the chip and not the motor. I had the same thoughts as you is it my layout power supply? but as all my other 70 locos run fine, it cannot be that, Bill.
That has given me a bit of hope, I’ve had repeated issues of loco randomly accelerating and decelerating (even after the motor was replaced) on certain parts of my layout. Is this similar to what you had with the class 92?
It’s identical eMate, that’s exactly what was happening to the 92 and also to the Deltic initially. Hope that helps. Cheers. ………..Graham
Pleased that you sorted the running problem. I have had a similar problem with a Bachmann Precendent loco fitted with a non-sound Bachmann decoder. The problem revolved around it having a coreless motor. I eventually found by experiment that it performed best by not turning off back emf and adjusting the related BEMF Cv's. There was no mention that adjustments may be required in the loco instructions even when using the Bachmann recommended decoder to account for the coreless motor fitted. It seems that you are on your own when it comes to recognising running problems that may be linked to BEMF
Hi Graham, an interesting video there. I only have the one Accurascale loco, a Deltic, which I haven't had any decoder issues with, except having to turn down the sound levels about 60% it was crazy loud when it arrived. Something I wondered listening to your video, is it a possibility that the running issues are something to do with the loco and the brand or type of DCC system your using. Maybe different systems require the loco chips to be just every so slightly set up differently. I use a NCE Powercab, it's 1.5A output I think, but if I run too many sound locos at once I do start to see irratic running as I get near that 1.5A output. One other thing I thought might help and you might already use this, I always use JMRI Decoder pro to set any CV's as its run on a laptop and you can see easily what your changing as everything is in tab format. I remember reading on the Soundtraxx Tsunami instructions that their chip is set to start the engine sound when track power is applied, and if you change that to start the engine sound by pressing a function, you only needed to change a cv. Simple, but as your basically using a binary system if you get the CV value wrong you can unwitingly change other settings without realising it. I think that's why I use Decoder pro to remove that possibility. Sorry for the long winded reply Graham, I just wanted to share that with you and say well done on sorting out your two locomotives, good work.................Hope your well, all the best Dave.
Hi Dave, that all makes very interesting reading but why is it that if my controller is at fault then why do you think that my brand new Bachmann class47 ran perfectly straight out the box. If I had problems with the controller then surely it would affect that plus all my other locos? Cheers. ………….Graham
@@GrahamFoulston I'm not suggesting your controller is at fault................I was just thinking out loud, wondering if different controllers NCE, Gaugemaster, ESU, etc etc may work very slightly differently ie the settings you mentioned, with different chips, ESU, Zimo, etc. So your hard work resulted in getting the very best settings of the loco to work with your controller set up.............As you said, it's like fine tuning everything to work as one whole.................Your Bachmann loco might have already been set at the optimum best already...............I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas out there.
Hello Graham well done young man. I am so happy you sorted your locos out. You need to send a email to the company where you got locos and explain what you had to do to fix your locos and say they need to sort out there quality control. We'll done mate. I have not got a train set but play tsw3. But I love your streams and no faff just get on with it. How is your wife and dog. How is your motor car doing. Well done mate. 👏
Fascinating and excellant atuff Graham!!! Ive been in the hobby over 40 years and Ive learnt something today, thank you. Good stuff mate!! Ive heard of back EMF many times and never knew it could have such an impact.
Hi mate and I too never realised that the back EMF would have such an effect that it does but this proves it does. Like you, I had heard of it but had never really gone into it that much because to be honest, I never really had too - until now of course! Cheers. ……….Graham
@@GrahamFoulston So glad you got it sorted and its something Ill be keeping an eye on in the future with my own models. I guess the one takeaway from this could be that with every 100 models that run fine with default settings straight from the box, there maybe one or two that need a tweak to get the best from them. Whether its slight differences in the components on the main boards or the motors, who knows but its certainly food for thought. Well done again!
Hi, sorry you've been suffering this so long. They must be using a different motor from others then. Back emf is used for feedback control. Motors are dynamos when they spin the make power, this power can oppose the incoming control voltage or when the controller is set up correctly it can be measured to see if the motor needs more or less power from controller. Sounds like the motors in these are very efficient dynamos, are they coreless?
Hi Graham, have you given any feedback to Accurascale? If not I strongly suggest doing so, so that they can make sure the back EMFs are properly set up before sending models out in the future.
Based on the way they changed the chains on the second run of Deltics they do seem to be a company that listens to customers.
Hi mate and thanks for the comment. Yes I have given Accurascale feed back on these issues and I know that they are now working hard in the background to try and solve any future issues. Hopefully these will all be resolved in the future because as you say, they do at least listen to their customers feedback. Cheers. …………Graham
Thank you. A lot of unnecessary bother for something that should just run well straight out of the box. Running quality is IMHO as important as visuals and scale detail. No use if these are the best looking models in the industry if they run poorly
Well done Graham. Another excellent informative video. Could I ask what you use for programming your CVs?
Hi mate and thanks for the comment, I use my Z21 for all controls on the layout plus programming and it seems to work perfectly for my needs. Hope that helps. Cheers. …………Graham
Thanks Graham. Andrew
Hi Graham, I have been looking for those platform lights you have that were common in the 60s and 70s. Could you tell me where you got them?
Good stuff Graham, so how many beautiful Accurascale Class 37's will grace your wonderful layout???
Hi mate, to be honest, I have enough 37’s and I don’t really need anymore to be honest no matter how lovely they are! 👍🏻😉. Cheers. ………..Graham
Purchased a 92 Caledonian sleeper last year that constantly tripped out and then restart within a minute, eventually stopped altogether. excellent support from customer support. Sent it back and worked perfectly with a new motor and decoder software update.
Just received a 92 DB Schenker today, one pantograph was fitted UPSIDE DOWN, how does a manufacturer allow this to happen. They tend to fall off any way so refitted and glued on, engine run's great on it's own and with a couple of container wagon's but put 3 on and it trip's out. will try the CV 54 trick again
Hi Graham,
Good video that your locos are working well, I would like to point out a few things with supplied wound goods i.e. motors from Asia and why there may be some discrepancy in performance observed for the same type model number motor. Most companies use a variety of suppliers i.e. for motors and though they may look the same can offer different performance than specified and here are some but not all, copper used in the motor windings
may not be as specified as regard of the purity or the gauge of wire also the motor pickup for the rotor also the motor bearing the magnets used etc.
Tolerance will normally be to the lower end of the motor specification if you can save a few mm of wire over thousands of motors there is a cost benefits to the manufacture.
The back-EMF settings can be different if the copper is not as conductive for example,
Some copper suppliers from India China load the copper with zinc in the melt to bulk out the raw material it goes on and on.
So, most suppliers Hornby etc. are chasing on component price to keep margins as most industries these days.
Hi Ken and thank you for the comment and all what you say is true which is why I said in the video that if you had for example 6 locomotives from the same class and manufacturer then each one would have different settings because of the different tolerances within the motor. It’s not straightforward as you obviously know. Anyway, with me tweaking these settings then I have now got two locomotives which run perfectly especially when I compare them to what they used to run like. Cheers. …………Graham
Good to see you sorted your problems, but with the cost of locos nowadays, you would expect them to work out of the box. Sounds like quality control isnt doing the job!
Absolutely Mark which is pretty much what I said in the video, whether it’s QC or something else I don’t know, I’m not privy to anything Accurascale so I don’t know what goes on behind the scenes, all I know is what I see when I open the box, and on these two occasions that hasn’t been a pleasant experience. Cheers. …………Graham
Graham,I found cv54 worked okay on the V4 decoders, but on the V5's it was no good. I found the easiest way to make the settings ,is to select default settings on the Lokprogrammer,I have never had to make any other adjustments after that. Cheers
Hi John and thanks for the comment and that’s a very good point you made about CV 54 not working with V5 Loksound decoder, I had heard that too when researching. As I haven’t got Lokprogrammer then I had to do it the hard way as I described. Cheers. …………Graham
I had the same speaker issue on the class 55, I sorted it by adjusting a CV to lower the volume. I agree that Accurascale need to tighten up on Quality as regards CV settings etc.
Hi Andrew, lowering the sound is one solution but that to me was not really solving the issue, if the speaker was firmly fitted down to the PCB like it should be then that cures the issue properly. But if you are happy with your solution then that’s fine. Cheers. ………..Graham
Hi Graham. Do you have the webpage link that you used please? Id like to read a bit more around this topic, and the few sites I’ve been on and have left me somewhat baffled 👍🏻
Hi Brian, yes, the web address is: www.southwestdigital.co.uk/PDF/SWD%20LSV4%20Motor%20back%20EMF%20Setup.pdf Hope that helps and good reading. Cheers …………Graham
@@GrahamFoulston many thanks 🚂
You’ve got me worried Graham … I’ve got an A’scale Deltic and 37 on order … I’m really glad I don’t do DCC … hope you’re both well … (I didn’t know you spoke Greek !!!) 🙏
Hi Nigel and thanks for the comment. I wouldn’t be worried mate, I’m sure your two locos will be fine, you have to remember that Accurascale have sold hundreds of these and only a very small proportion are showing signs of issues which hopefully they are rectifying by either replacements, repairs or refunds. So rest easy my friend, I’m sure yours will be fine. 👍🏻. Cheers. ………..Graham
Congrats on resolving your issues, and yes I did have an issue with my new Accurascale Class 37 in Inter-City Swallow livery 37419 straight out of the box. When the sound was enabled after 2 seconds the sound would cut out although the loco would still move backwards and forwards. The solution was to reduce the overall volume setting, CV63 by >10%, I reduced the value of CV63 from 192 down to 150 and it now works fine, I know others set it to 160 or 170, but at 150 it is still loud enough for me.
Hi Dave and thanks for the comment and I have heard about this sound problem with the class 37 from other folk. This just seems to confirm to me that all these issues which seem to be taking place are primarily due to the ESU v5 decoder rather than the Accurascale loco itself. But I’m pleased that you have managed to solve this particular issue by just lowering the volume a little. Cheers. ………..Graham
Begs the question how this wasn't picked up in testing!
Graham my Deltic is not the best runner in the world, when I get my new layout finished I will follow your advice i just hope I have the same amount of patience that you have. Keep up the greta work. BTW how is the car build going.
So would it running fast then slow (inconsistent speed) be solved by this approach? Or is that a different problem?
It should fix it, yes.
Glad you got it sorted mate 🙂 I don't own any model railway but have an interest in it, but in my opinion, you are correct, it should be working properly on delivery and shouldn't require any user configuration and messing around. Another thought I had was that surely Accurascale technical support should have known about this potential fix for you and told you about it - again they failed you by just telling you to send it back.
Hi mate and thanks for the comment. I honestly don’t think that Accurascale were aware of any issues with some of these locos, not enough for them to think that there was a major problem with the decoder. I think it’s only recently that they have started to become aware that it’s not just one or two and I know for a fact that they are now looking into this and to try and fix this issue. Time will tell I guess but at least they are now aware and doing something about it. Cheers. ………..Graham
@@GrahamFoulston That’s excellent news. Hopefully something good might come out of all this for everyone 😊
Wow Graham, that is so impresssive! I love how you didn't throw the towel in but persevered and were rewarded for your efforts. There is a big lesson there for all of us especially in this disposable world that we live in these day. Most people wouldn't know the pleasure that can be gained from what some may call the old fashioned method of fixing things yourself. High five to Susannah as well for taking the time to look into this for a friend. :)
Thank you my friend for that very kind comment and I have to admit that I did get a strange sense of satisfaction seeing these two locos starting to behave like they should. It also meant that the issues were solvable too and that I didn’t need to send them back. Ok, it took a full day to do but to get the results I did then in my opinion, it was well worth it. If someone who knew what they were doing from the get go then I’m sure it could have been done in a much shorter time. Cheers. ………..Graham
Hello. Can I help you? EMF is electro motive force. An electric motor is also a generator, no. difference. So when the motor armature spins in a magnetic field it begins to generate. This generated voltage is the emf. At a certain speed the generated voltage will equal the voltage going in and the motor will stop acceleration. On the BR class 25 locomotive this happens at 18 mph. To accelerate you have to cut the emf which is done by cutting the magnetic field, known as weak fielding. I hope this makes sense. Regards Mark
Hi Graham hope your well I got the accurascale class 92 in the Caledonian sleeper livery before Christmas and I've had not had one bit of a bother with sorry to hear you've had problems with your locos plus the deltic it could be a bad batch who knows take care all the best.
I’ve used dc for years and switched feedback controllers from KPC,never had a problem with running,ie speeding up slowing down,all run smoothly and slowly,life’s to short for buggering about like this!