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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- In this video, we take some time to discuss the non-normative set of pronouns it/its. We talk about nonbinary identities, the term genderqueer, and how trans identity intersects with autism. Pronouns are an aesthetic part of gender expression, so we talk about the reasons why this transgender person prefers them.
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The autism thing is SO TRUE, I know so many autistic people whose sense of humor is entirely formed around people not getting their humor.
I have a pretty broad sense of humor, but I have developed a taste for anti-humor and humor that alienates, annoys, or confuses normal people in a particular way.
I'm not autistic, but same^^
My mum playing dumb when people’s jokes are just unfunny so they start explaining and she just smiles.
I love my mom
Sometimes the joke is just for me lol
I'm 50 and only 2 years ago found the words for my gender. I'm a brain in meat suit. I would prefer it. Most refuse to use those. I'm triple A. Autistic, agender and asexual.
I hope that doesn't mean you charge a large up front fee and then sell loot boxes
Well that's not really your gender so much as a scientific fact about what humans are.
Heck all animals 😂
U wonder if I got that humor because I am autistic or because I regularly hate humanity and separate myself from it.
that's so real, i vibe with the idea that my body's being piloted by an electrified wrinkly meatball
Iconic as hell
I finally understand the usage of it/its.
I've always felt weird about it because i felt as though i was dehumanizing the person using it/its... But the way you've explained why some people prefer it, well now it makes sense. Yes, there's a slight adjustment period... But i dont want to disrespect an individual using it/its. If anything, refusing to use their preference is more dehumanzing and disrespectful.
Thanks, Lux!
EDIT: fitting in with the freaks and weirdos, the outcasts... We're the Island of Misfit Toys
@@JebJester you are the one lying to yourself.
If I am in the state of distress that causes me to use, it, its pronouns
Your feelings on wether i should attach human norms when I am distressed because of the evil humans have forced on me, is irrelevant.
And if you are my landlord you won't be receiving notice i left or a check.
Because you chose to treat me like an object you own, and I owe you nothing at that point.
I see it like I see singular you and plural you (y'all in english are weird for getting rid of thou btw): having animate it and inanimate it just makes sense. In french we didn't even have an it/its or a they/them, we use genders for everything from humans to pets to furniture, so animate/inanimate is an implicit part of my brain's language corner. (We have iel/iels now for neutral yay!)
(plus it makes transphobes trying to feel smart going "are you an it?!" trip really hard when they hit an it/its agender person or an any/all apagender person and that always sends me.)
I’ve been explaining things like “I’m not a drag show and painting they, I’m a frog and mushroom they” lmao
ok but this is deeply comprehensible. vibes on point.
I'm a nebulous void and racoon they lol
I have a growing list of all the objects, situations, and vibes that represent my gender, and that has honestly been a great resource so far
@@thelemon5069 As a mushroom - frog void - drag show - raccoon they/she/whatever, I want to be friends with all these lovely types of theys. 🩷
@@milfoilerI have no sense of what my gender is (it's certainly not man or woman), but I love the idea of finding things that vibe with you to describe your gender. That feels very organic. Unlike "check box m/f" so we can immediately ascribe 5.7 million truckloads of stereotypes to you.
Coming from the other "side", former transfem here still occasionally feeling my fem vibes but at the same... as i went forward in my trans journey i started to feel really blase about gender as a whole. somedays i'd go out super fem and i'd get misgendered. somedays i wouldn't try at all and i'd get she/hers. I thought about how we sort of pen each other in neat little categories, about how the binary restricts us and the whole thing just felt so arbitrary and frankly, quite stupid. The concept of any gender seems so frivolous, needless and sometimes damning. I wish to be free of those ideas. As someone with an appreciation for Animism, it/its has a certain appeal to me and maybe I will consider this for myself over my current they/thems. thanks for sharing your story Luxander, i relate.
I kinda envy you. In Brazil we're still fighting as hell just to use an adapted version of "they/them" ("elu/delu") that reactionary politicians keep trying to prohibit in schools. Imagine trying to introduce other neopronouns...
Ai meu deus um br aqui! Concordo com você. O pior é que a gente nem tem um pronome neutro padronizado que nem o they/them que já faz parte do Inglês há séculos. E ainda por cima, adjetivos também flexionam em gênero, coisas como "bonite" "coitade" "fantástique" soam muito estranhas. Eu sou a favor do pronome neutro mas precisa ser introduzido de forma gradual, porque é uma mudança muito grande na dinâmica da nossa língua.
As a trans masculine who isn't comfortable using the term "man" as I don't vibe with american machismo culture, i've experimented with different pronouns. I feel most comfortable with he/it. I adopted 'it' back in 2004 (before singular they/them for a non-hypothetical individual was accepted officially in publication) when I wanted to keep my gender private on the internet. It was largely done as a move of solidarity with how animals are often referred to as it. I felt that if more humans embraced 'it' then it would humanize the pronoun. I also adopted it as a sign of protest... you can't mock me by calling me 'it' if I already use it. That was a fun way to frustrate people who weaponized 'it'.
As a disabled person, i find referring to humans as "it" disturbing and potentially dangerous. Look up "A Child called It".
@kookootrix1978
I am older, disabled and familiar with 'A Child Called It'
I think context is important here, see 07:40.
Also, in my experience, any word can be used to 'other' people and make negative implications about them without directly resorting to overt slurs, if that is what a speaker intends.
These are interesting ideas thank you for sharing
@@kookootrix1978I'm disabled and also have PTSD from past abuse. In addition, I've read the 3 book series of "A Child Called 'It'." I'm agender and I go by it/its pronouns. I think there is more you'll need to understand from this and the context.
I'm NB myself and also on the 'I don't care what pronouns you use for me as long as you aren't being rude about it' wagon. If asked I say my pronouns are 'any' and my preference is to just never be asked and to never have a 'thing' made of it, I just want to 'be', but usually I just let people default to whatever they want to use for me. I use whatever pronouns someone tells me they prefer, obviously including it/its. That being said, I think the trauma reason for why it triggers some people is valid, and I don't think it is entirely equivalent to someone having a problem with she/her or he/him.
With it/it's pronouns there can be an inherent depersonalization to it that is not inherently present with the usual pronoun suspects. Someone calling you she when you are a he is horrible, rude, and they should not do it, but someone who was called "it", being told that they were undeserving of even being seen as human is another level, at least in my eyes and my experience. They are being told they are not only a different gender, they are not a person. Stripped of both their gender identity and their humanity. It is like a microcosm of how in war 'the enemy' is painted to be less than human through propaganda so that people feel more comfortable committing violence on those 'non-people'. It usually comes with an extra layer of malice, abuse, harassment and pain and I can understand how for someone who had that as their lived experience it can be triggering to be put into the position where they need to use that language towards someone else, particularly if they feel kinship and are in community with that person. For many it is like looking into a mirror and then needing to say words that caused them permanent harm and to feel like they are their own abuser.
The deciding factor here though is, of course, choice. Someone choosing it/its for themselves is valid and not them doing harm to anyone it is just choosing its preferred way of being seen and addressed in the world, and it is entirely entitled to that. Sadly the entire thing is a deeply complicated issue that I feel it is important to have understanding and genuine empathy for. Our community has a lot of tangled trauma and pain, and navigating it is often not crisp, clean, and without unintentional collateral damage to the most hurt and vulnerable among us. Just to be clear though, I don't believe that is a reason to limit your own personal expression and identity. Everyone is entitled to finding and using whatever pronouns bring them comfort and ease.
The belief that "it" is dehumanising is predicted on the belief that to be human is to have gender, because "it" is used to refer to anything without a gender. The existence of agender people prove that that belief is false and people need to adjust to that.
Yes, some people will use it as a slur because they believe it is negative but we don't stop homosexual people calling themselves "gay" even though bigots use it as a slur because they believe it is a negative!
thank you for this, as an autistic person i need to learn to not be apologetic when folks assume i am being rude when in reality i'm just trying my best to talk with them at their level
You don’t have to justify your pronouns and/or gender expression. Tbh in my upbringing, calling a person “it” was viewed as dehumanizing. There was an infamous memoir, A Child Called It (about abuse).
As a fellow autist, though, I relate to the otherness. Half the time, I feel like I accidentally dropped to earth from an alien planet. That feeling of alienation is something I never want to cause in others, which is one of many reasons I call people whatever they like to be called.
I Have DID because I was FORCED from a young Child to be boy, so YES I have a trauma response to being called he/him
The thing about nonbinary ppl w they/them pronouns getting stereotyped is so true...
I have no pronoun preferences at all. If gender is an internal experience, then internally, I'm a shapeless, formless blob of consciousness piloting a biomechanical flesh suit to interact with reality. My suit happens to be afab, but I don't particularly feel any attachment to using the pronouns ascribed to it, but I don't care if people do. I only care that I know people are talking about me or that if I'm being talked about that people understand that I'm the one being referenced. As long as that's clear, literally use whatever, I don't care.
Also, I feel you on embracing being the weirdo freakazoid. I did that a LONG time ago, like when I was still in I think like elementary school? Maybe like 6th grade or middle school, idk, but a LONG time ago, and it was so freeing, like... not giving a shit that you're weird is really nice. I just started focusing on being the best kind of weird that people actually would WANT to hang out with.
Omg the "shapless, formless blob of consciousness" thing is soo relatable
Relatable
I've heard the trauma argument made about the word 'queer' too.
The idea of reclaiming one's otherness makes a lot of sense. Like I revel in being called weird or I'll even call myself a freak. It's fine. I'd hate to be normal.
Thank you so much. I’ve been struggling to find community in my university’s queer circle because so much of queer advocacy is about affirming people’s gender, but, for me as an agender person, I feel that there is no gender to affirm. I’m really happy that that exists and that people find it helpful, but it makes me feel even more like an oddity in my university’s queer circles than in spaces that aren’t explicitly queer because I feel so different from the other trans and non-binary people there. There’s nothing to affirm because I don’t have a gender.
7:40 i agree with your point completely. im a trans man who goes by he/it pronouns, i really hate the idea that alot of binary trans people hold that its “dehumanising” to use… i can agree that its used to insult others by conservatives, i can see how it had affected you, but how would it affect you or anotther person if i’m using the pronoun? it pronouns make me feel secure with myself and is rather integral to my identity, if people cant accept that transness isnt binary and that it has many nuances than no trans person will ever be accepted.
ps, love from a trans banning country
Genuinely not trying to throw shade, but how are it/its pronouns not dehumanizing?
@@johnlarken4744 long story short, it depends first on the context of how the word is used, and second on the person the pronoun is being used on.
for an expanded answer,
people feel insulted when it is used on them because its *meant* to when thrown at them. it IS dehumanising when a person who doesn’t use “it” is called an it as a means to make a distinction between them and “normal people”, ie trans people and transphobes. nobody likes being called an “it” if thats something that doesn’t work for them, and can be degrading. that is something i completely understand and do feel bothered about on behalf of those who get insulted in this way.
now i cant speak for other people that use it pronouns, but personally “it” pronouns fit very well with my identity as an “other” in the eyes of the norm in my place, and somewhat empowering given it being used as an insult to people like me. thus, i like when the pronoun is used on me because its on my terms, and doesnt make me feel any less human, just different in my own right and comfortable with myself!
@@rixmagi 2 things. First, that basically sounds like passing. The un-affirming person tries to be rude but accidentally affirms you anyway. Second, that still sounds like being dehumanized is the point.
@@johnlarken4744 agree with the part about it affirming cause to me its like “haha u try insult me with it, but i AM it!”… so not dehumanising to me no. though im a little confused, what makes u meantion passing?
@@rixmagi Passing may have been the wrong word. The example you used simply sounded like that scenario.
autistic AND agender with it/its pronouns? omg! 100% relate!!!
Same!
This is something I've talked about with my therapist a few times. I'm autistic and part of how that manifests for me is that I am much more in-my-head and don't really feel any kind of personal connection to my body, so while I am AMAB I don't think I would feel any more dysphoric if I were AFAB. The way I describe it to others is that I feel like my body is more like my concept of "I" is my conscious mind, and my body is basically just a flesh Gundam that I am piloting. Because of this I don't really understand gender as a concept or what it's supposed to feel like. And not in the sense that gender is a language I don't speak which I could learn; I think for me gender is more like the concept of color to someone born blind. I can form an intellectual understanding of how other people feel about it, but I'll never be able to understand what identifying with a gender feels like. I use he/him out of convenience and to not have to explain myself, since I'm not adversely affected by it, but I would really be most comfortable with it/its. But I know upfront that nobody will respect it. The bigots will do what they always do and people who are ostensibly more progressive will refuse to use those pronouns because "they're dehumanizing," disrespecting the identity of people who affirmatively want to use those pronouns out of a performative white-knighting for a theoretical third party that wouldn't like to be called those pronouns. So if I could just zap it into everyone's brains to always call me it/its without having to ask, explain or fight about it I would, but that is way too much of a mental burden so I stick to he/him.
I entertained using "it" as a pronoun but came at it from a slightly different place. In English, pronouns are strange. We always capitalize i no matter it's place in a sentence. he, she, they, them, are often associated with humans or human adjacent animals "It" represents the rest of creation.
It was more a statement on the linguistic ways we separate ourselves from the world.
Oof. On the whole dead name thing... I flinch every time I see or hear it. There are certain movies I can't watch because a character has that name. I'm TERRIFIED that someone with that name will become a coworker on my shift, and I'll hear that name over the radio. I absolutely COULDN'T be friends with someone who has that name. I need therapy... I don't know how to overcome this trauma and my instinctive responses.
I'm glad you're here with us. That sounds really difficult. Like you said, therapy or other professional help is an excellent idea so over time you can live a little easier. If you are able, give it a try. You can also look for support groups and meet ups, as being around people similar to yourself can also help work through things and find some relief. ♥️
@@tinabeanajustabean I don't know if I even CAN access regular therapy. My job has some kind of stupid app for that sort of stuff. It hates my phone and my therapist seemed dismissive. I want an in person one, but I don't know if my insurance will help. Therapy is expensive. Thankfully, getting high helps. I wish I could have a job that DOESN'T make me wish for death. I have a few friends that understand.
Omg, the bit about infodumping is so real! I've gotten called a know-it-all for so much of my life, I now specify when I'm talking to friends when I'm infodumping, and to people who don't know me, I just...try not to?
i still haven't been diagnosed but the autism experience you're talking about resonates so well with me. sick of people assuming all kinds of random shit about me just out of nowhere. inference overreliance is one of the main symptoms of the neurotypical spectrum disorder.
I used your it/its pronouns last night casually when talking to my girlfriend. I don't like them myself but I absolutely respect people who use it.
This is one of the few times I've heard anyone talk about gender in a specific way I find familiar. I tried it/its and they/them during the late-1980s, but shrug and wander around with whatever's going on these days.
I am not autistic, but really like the sorts of questions autistic people tend to ask, and the way they ask them.
I use They for almost anyone because I sometimes forget and I'm bad at People.
Rn I (nonbinary gendervague autistic) use she/her pronouns for the same reason, not because they're feminine but cause they just fit the vibe of my gender better than they/them. It's interesting how often people assume I use they/them as soon as they learn I'm nonbinary. I've been considering trying out it/its for awhile now too. It's kind of awesome, I associate it with how Pokémon are often referred to as it/its regardless of gender. Super agree with the whole purposeful divergence from society, my gender is definitely influenced by autistic ostracization. Most of society fundamentally does not understand what I am, and recontextualizing myself as a creature feels freeing and euphoric. My gender goes by its own rules just as I do
You're very relatable, lol
I also use it/its alongside she/her, however I identify as being cis.
Keep being cool
Yussssss, was waiting for this so I could share it. I Been using she/they/it and you explained it all, oh so well.
It is the earth and love and compassion and the dharma, the sunset and the feeling of contact between my hands and my lovers or with my plants and the soil as I tend them and am tended in return. It is the noun form of To Be. It is everything.
When people have referred to some of y'all as It to demean you, I know it can feel bad, but those people are very narrow and restricted. They walk with their faces in their own shadows trying to carve their shadows onto the earth, and do not see the sun.
I'm diagnosed autistic and have referred to myself as it/its for a while. I'm generally okay with using he/him, but mostly because I separate my outward presentation of myself from my inner identity(like I have most of my life for social reasons). I used to feel like it was more of a mental health issue for me as I usually feel more comfortable referring to myself as an it or in the third person, but meeting other it/its people has opened my eyes a bit and helped me be more comfortable with who I am. Thanks for explaining your perspective. It's both interesting and validating to me seeing how others arrive at identifying as it/its and knowing I'm not alone.
I am also agender but use they/them pronouns, so this video was fascinating. Mainly I just don't feel like I have seen the same amount of codification around they/them aesthetics as is described in the video, and my experience is that all of the they/them folks I know are very different from each other and myself in their gender expression. I have noticed that there seem to be a few broad "types" of they/them aesthetic that tend to get more visibility in online spaces, but if anything that experience drove me away from those spaces and back out to my irl friends who show more presentation diversity.
To be clear, I'm not saying that they/them is better or anything, I'm just sharing how my experience with non-binary pronouns has differed. Overall I think it's interesting that where I said "screw you, social media, you can't tell me how to they/them, I present how I want," so many other people chose to try different pronouns entirely. Both are perfectly valid responses to the internet culture around they/them pronouns, as far as I'm concerned.
7:45 This part felt like it missed a core issue with it/it's being used (current day by bigots) as a slur, in society, rather than an individual's unique aversion.
Especially since the term already existed and thus have plenty of existing associations/baggage that comes with it
You absolutely hit the nail on the head with the autistic thing. Pretty much our whole friend group is autistic and like half of them go by it/its. (Though therianthropy may also have something to do with it since most of our friends are also therians)
Thanks for explaining this! I was actually thinking about the word “it” the other day, in terms of comparing English to other languages. And I think it’s kind of weird we mostly use it for inanimate objects. But other languages it’s just neutral, and I love the idea of it being pronouns. Perfectly neutral.
Thank you for sharing this experience you have of embracing othering. I never refuse to use the pronouns of somebody who uses it/its pronouns but definitely it has felt in the past like I’m doing something disrespectful because for many people they would interpret it that way if I addressed them as such.
I noticed I’m happier when I stick with my circle of neural divergents but I haven’t yet to fully embrace being othered. It still bothers me on some level. I kinda realize those I’ll just never share the same connections with neurotypical that I do with neurodivergent people. So maybe I should embrace it more? Maybe I just kinda feel this exhausting feeling of swimming against the current being exhausting which I imagine might be part of your using they/they pronouns at work or in certain places.
I use they/them pronouns in some spaces and she/her pronouns in others. I think on the practical side for me it’s really that, when some other people don’t have a reference point of a set of default assumptions that a gender identity provides, people act really awkwardly and I don’t like it. I don’t want my gender identity or lack there of to impede my social interactions that are hard enough already. I am close enough to what many people think a woman is this society that is how I present myself outside of queer spaces and sometimes in them depending on the vibes. There’s probably some level of fear involved in this but I’m an anxious person and that’s not easily overcome for me.
Anyways time to end my stream of thought. Fin.
"Last month was pride, now it's time for WRATH" - love that
7:40 I recently made a comment on one of your videos and I felt uncomfortable with using it pronouns but did it anyway for this exact reason. I don't have to use them for myself, it's YOUR pronouns and I shouldn't deny you your linguistic expression.
Thanks for sharing! I saw it/its pronouns for the first time today in an autistic adults therapy group. I immediately thought, “huh, never heard of that, but that makes sense for autistic people.” Glad to know more.
I'm she/it but people rarely refer to me :(
I consider myself gender apathetic, to me gender is like an outfit , i could walk around naked but everyone is more comfortable when I wear an outfit, so I sniff the pits for something clean and go with that.In my "real life" I use She/Her because its what comes most naturally for other people , In cosplay I wear a They/Them pin,Cosplayers tend to be very LGBT or at the very least are allies,pronoun pins are commonplace, or a lot of people use the pronouns of their character,regardless of their own identity. Online I go by anything , I have a friend who uses almost exclusively Cog/Cogs with me because they think neos are cool and cogs fit my steampunk aesthetic.
I think my gender identity is inseperable from my lived experience as a chronically ill person in Northern Ireland with Autism& ADHD, nobody else will ever experience gender the way I do, because nobody will ever experience life as I have . Maybe if I didnt meet my best friend in high school(who introduced me to the concept of identities beyond just LGBT) i would still consider myself a cis straight woman, or maybe id still be the 4th state of gender
I find "it" dehumanizes, since it refers to objects without consciousness. I consider it a red flag when people refer to pets as "it", if someone uses it for another human, that's an even bigger red flag. " They" is a neuter pronoun that has a long history of being used as both singular and plural.
Feel free to use it in your personal life, but I hope it never catches on. As a disabled person, i find it disturbing. Check out documentaries about "The child called it".
I've had a lot of trauma with being dehumanized with being called it.
My cousin's roommate uses it/its pronouns and my partner observed that when I talk about it I obviously tense up.
I was wondering if any of the it enjoyers in the comments would feel any kinda way about that. I only see my cousin and their roommate around the rest of my family on holidays so I'm not comfortable talking to it about gender related stuff then.
As someone that uses it/he pronouns consistently (though there is difficult times getting people to actually use “it” for me), when someone is using the pronoun “it” in a derogatory way against me, the fact that it IS derogatory is lessened since I like that pronoun! It would be MUCH much worse if they called me something that I did not want to be called, such as “she” or “they”, those pronouns are dehumanizing to me when I ask to not be called them, and are my “it” as it is for you.
If you meant something else please elaborate for me! I am open to any discussion!
That was an interesting connection you brought up between the alienation and alien/inanimate grammatic aspect of it vs they. The embracing of being called "other".
yay anti-humanism
Omg yes! I remember that! I remember nonbinary wasn't around yet, and it was genderqueer first. And I remember when nonbinary was this NEW thing.
The situation you describe around 10:25 gets me punching a pillow and doing pushups and squats. I fucking hate that double standard bullshit and I like looking fucking scary when people gimme that shit.
I'm 40, and I've spent my whole life in a place that's about ten to fifteen years behind, culturally speaking. It took me into my twenties to really understand that being non-binary didn't make me a 'fake trans autogynephile.'
You do you. The one thing that I think is significant politically, is that this type of step/identification puts you very deep in a niche group that an overwhelming majority of the population finds completely unrelatable. It comes across as pretentious, entitled, and frankly dehumanized and probably a psychological pathology. Is there a tiny percentage of the population that speaks this language and finds it legitimate and reasonable? Sure. To everyone else it is basically unintentional self parody.
My identity isn't predicated on mainstream acceptance
As a Genderfluid neurodivergent person, I understand the intersectionality of feeling othered and using neopronouns. I've always been a misfit, and my gender journey added to that.
I feel very dysphoric of she/her pronouns, but enjoy they/them or fae/fem/faer as my neutral and feminine pronouns. He/him is generally my regular basis pronoun because I more often feel like a bi twink.
However, there's this more grunge "hellhound" version of my identity that does identity with it/its. Its colors are red, silver, and black with a protective hellhound aura. I often experience changes by seasons but also at random times.
I still struggle with my neopronous outside of the trans neurodivergent community, hence why He/they are my main pronouns. Sometimes, being a he/they femboy isn't enough, but fae/fem has been rejected by my peers. I've never ventured to talk about my it/its identity outside of my current romantic relationship (who's a neurodivergent two spirit Mohawk person who goes by they/them).
I appreciate Luxander talking about this, providing a space to talk about both neurodivergence and neopronous.
I tried to go by it/it’s but no one would agree to it so I just kinda settled on they/them but like I don’t really even care anymore.
Same here. It's a shame because it's my second favorite set of pronouns so I just settle for "they/them" at the very least IRL because I know that no one is going use them.
I feel a really similar way although coming from a transfem perspective, i used to use she/they for a while after coming out but people similarly assumed me to be the stereotype associated with she/theys but I've also never really felt comfortable with just she/her cuz it's just one part of my gender like there's so much more than just 'woman'. All this has led me to using primarily xe/hir (neopronouns from sci-fi works are just so peak) and she/her
somebody would have to tell me to use it/its. i just don't feel comfortable possibly disrespecting a person's humanity. i got into a heated argument with a pastor over those pronouns.
your pronouns are cute/cool
I’ve been exploring my gender identity for 4 years. I have never resonate more with a video. The feeling of being othered and therefore fine I’ll be other. In addition, how you’ve explained how agender feels for you, I had to rewatch that part because I’ve often experienced my gender as a void. It just feels like, nothing. I’ve identified as nonbinary because that feels free and can let me explore any gender and didn’t want to “lock” myself into a gender which is hilarious to type out loud because what does that even mean. Anyway, thank you for this video. And rock the it/its pronouns. Those are one of mine too but I often feel ashamed to share that with people in my life. So much easier online.
Thank you for being public about this because I still get push back from people because of my pronouns (also it/it/its)
this really resonated with me, and helped me think about/understand my own feelings too
They/them has already become a stereotypical concept so it uses it/its.. For me it honestly feels wrong to even refer to animals as "it".
I have pretty similar feeling to what you described with gender apathy and autistic separation from others. Because of my gender apathy I tend to be perceived as conforming a lot of time, so when I do something non-conforming it can catch people off guard. Trying to date straight women often made me feel grossed out by gendered expectations, and I’ve found a lot more community and comfortability dating queer women and gender non-conforming people! Honestly gender is just annoying
Why is Luxander so awesome? The voice? Or is it connected to the High Quality Gender Fluid Pipeline? This one shall keep clicking until the mystery is solved.
Im non-binary trans masc (he/they) with autism, ADHD, anxiety, depression, and extreme chest dysphoria.
Thanks for sharing your perspectives! :)
I feel like there's slightly more to the trauma thing than 'it' being used to misgender a person. You ordinarily wouldn't call someone it unless you were directly trying to be hostile and dehumanise them, a concept with a ton of baggage. Not that I would use that as an excuse or anything
I think it definitely requires the average person to recalibrate their schemas and assumptions! Hell, I notice I'll refer to myself using it/its when joking about other people viewing me as alien and lesser-than!
There is a big difference when the person wants to be called "it" though. Like, the reason "it" is offensive is because it's a way to deny the person's identity. But refusing to call someone it when it wants you to is essentially the same thing.
Nah, hard disagree. People openly requesting to go by "it" pronouns are being immensely selfish and exceedingly naive socially. "It" is one of the deepest, most offensive, insults someone can direct towards one of us. I, and all the alternative people I know, would absolutely risk a new felony if we heard someone call one of us "it". That is so not okay, and ANYONE openly asking to go by such would be making it harder and harder for the rest of us to successfully stop the rest of the world from ever using " it" offensively. If people are identifying as this, they discredit the entire argument that saying "it" is so offensive, it's not okay to ever say in any context. This is the equivillent if someone tried to request to be referred to as the "f word", and multiple people started requesting society to address them as that word.
Nope, sorry, that's going too far. There a countless options for pronouns and names. This feels like people want to be contrarian SO bad, and want to be seen as different from everything, and thus take things to a new level each time we make progress on acceptance in any area. We, as a community, are taking affirmation too far if we're accepting " it" pronouns. And I never thought that would be a possible problem to have (taking affirmation too far).
I've been abused since birth for being Intersex and extremely androgynous. By my parents, other family, kids at school, church, etc. I wound up sending my father to his grave via a baseball bat because of how severe his abuse of me was. I served 10 years for that, and came home recently. And I can firmly say, that "it" was THE worst insult anyone could direct at me or my fellow lgbt family. To the point I would take extreme offense to someone asking to be called that. I'm high functioning on the spectrum, so don't say this is a spectrum thing. This is wrong. Hard stop.
wdym abt painting ur nails black around someone who gets migraines?
My partner has smell-triggered migraines, so the strong chemical smell of nail polish isn't great for him
Smells can set off migraines, I personally can handle nail polish for a while before it gets me but the stink of a small electrical fire I was around last year had me in a gnarly migraine in less than 30 seconda
I don't think you info dump, but I know people think that about myself and other autistics. I relate to so much of what you share, gender identity and expression, navigating the world from an autistic perspective, passion for nature, music, archery, et cetera. There are no aspects of life that are not socially viewed and acted upon through the filter of racialized class status, however, the abolition of whiteness, the dismantling of the hierarchy supporting and defending it, is rarely to never discussed except as a side issue by LGBTQ+ people of European descent and aspirationally white PoC. The LGBTQ+ is a community just as socio-politically divided by race, color, gender, and age as straight society is, only we are more invested in projecting the appearance of being one big happy rainbow family.💙
It/it is still a pronoun in use for objects, so i dont think i would call it s neo-pronoun.
Appreciate this video, but I do still feel like I don’t understand how it’s not dehumanizing to use it/its pronouns for people. Like, I get that having trauma with the pronouns isn’t a reason to disrespect other people, and the whole conversation about autistic engagement with otherness makes sense, but from my perspective, me using it/its for someone else is an act of me using language that makes them less of a human to myself and others around me? Idk if that makes sense, but the dehumanization factor still feels huge to me as a reason to avoid the pronouns.
And I mean all this as someone who resonates strongly with most of what was said here, I’m agender and autistic too, I don’t care about what pronouns people use for me, i could see myself being fine with others using it/its for me. But the social aspect of using pronouns feels unaddressed, and that’s where I feel that the problems with it/its arise. Cause with a trans woman, using she/her both validates her identity and also reinforces the truth of it to the people you’re interacting with. Both of those hold true for someone using it/its too, except that the second part is reinforcing a lack of humanity in the person, because there isn’t an existing gendered understanding to the pronouns. Maybe that’s just not enough of an issue to justify using it/its for agender people who feel alienated by the gendering of they/them? Idk, I do get that argument and resonate with it too, but it/its really doesn’t feel like the solution pronouns to me at all
TLDR: nuance and consent matter.
The topic was presented well. I would like to offer a little nuance.
For framing, I'm a 50-year-old binary trans woman who transitioned 30 years ago. I'm neuro-spicy but not autistic. For most of my life, "it and it's" have been used to dehumanize gender non-conforming people. I approve of reclaiming words previously used as slurs and recognize that language evolves faster than people. I also am the advisor to two LGBTQ+ college student organizations, one of which is trans-specific and has quite a few folks on the spectrum, some of whom use it/its. (anecdotally, I find folks on the spectrum seem more likely to use it/its.)
The point I will push back on is trauma. Yes, your trauma is yours, and mine is mine. We all need to work on our trauma and should never use it as an excuse to avoid things we simply find uncomfortable. But putting trauma responses in the same context as transphobia is problematic.
The video's example of allistic people perceiving an autistic person's affect or words as rude was an excellent comparison; let's expand on it. Allistic people need to recognize that autistic people miss many social cues and work to think about interactions in that light.
The valid complaint in the video is that allistic people don't meet autistic people halfway regarding communication and that intent should be taken into account. Assuming that is a fair expectation (which it is), how is it fair to ignore the intent of a person with a traumatic response to "it/its" as personal pronouns? How is it fair to compare a trans person with this specific trauma to transphobes? Intent and effect are different things.
A better way to handle this situation is for both people to see each other as whole people and have a conversation about it. Someone with this kind of trauma should be able to say, "It's important to me that we can be friends/coworkers/whatever, and you should know I have this trauma. Is there another way I can refer to you?" Then, have the dialog in much the same way someone should be able to have the conversation: "It's important to me that we can be friends/coworkers/whatever, and you should know I have autism and am likely to miss social cues, info dump, penguin pebble, etc. If I say something that comes across as rude or weird, please ask me about its intent rather than making assumptions." Keep in mind that you may not find a compromise everyone is comfortable with, and that may mean you avoid interacting with each other.
For many folks, this could be SA trauma, and the pronouns are the trigger word. No one's trauma should be disregarded, just as no one should use their trauma as an excuse for poor behavior.
Refusing to use it/its without having a conversation is rude and unacceptable. Consent matters!
We all screw up, and we all need to be open to giving and receiving a little grace when we do and as we negotiate complex situations.
Great video always nice to hear other talk about experiences with gender, pronouns and the overlap with being autistic/neurodivergent.
I can relate to a lot in this video, as another agender person. I don't feel like any pronouns, including neopronouns, really fit me.
My pronouns are whatever I have learned people to like to call me and expect me to answer to. I respond to them because I know if I dont bad things will happen.
Well it is what it is.
I appreciate the conversation here. There is an important linguistic aspect of this, though. Semantically "it" is the specific pronoun designated to refer to something non-human. At some point we are just limited by what our language can do.
i use it/its too, but for me part of it is because i'm bilingual. in my first language you don't really use pronouns when talking about someone because the grammar makes it so you can tell you're referring to someone in third person without the use of a pronoun. Also the language doesn't have neutral third person pronouns like they and it. We refer to animals and objects by she or he. So in english for me i don't really feel a connection to gendered pronouns, and i just prefer it over they
im a binary guy and I use it/its, I just think they're neat.
I understand most people aren't gonna use them and will just refer to me as he/him, thats ok I guess, im not gonna get in an argument over my pronouns but id still appreciate it if people would use them
You earned my subscription today, hats off
Some neuroqueer people use it pronouns. I accept it pronouns as well as others. It's fine. Whatever works.
This is so relatable. I'm agender too.
I think the thing with not liking the dehumanizing thing has to do with the social context of the word very similar to 'queer'. Back in the 80s 'queer' almost always was a slur. Nowadays you can't even use it as a slur bc it's not one. During that transition from slur to reclaimed, it landed in different ways... older generations of folks might have been uncomfortable while younger ones loved how 'queer' fit them.
'It/it's' is still in social transition, and the vast majority of ppl outside of trans online spaces use it as a slur (ie look at anti-trans posts).
I don't think it's a big deal for me personally, but it's not the same as a trans masc not using she/her for a trans femme.... "she/her" has a lot of positive social context when used correctly of cis and trans femme ppl.
People think I make fun when I say It/That
Read the title-SAME!!
Thank you for talking about autistic trans people 🎉
The analyses you're providing speaks to my IT self ....
5:50 - 6:10 and 15:23 -15:30 These statements resonate with me so much! Even though I leaning towards some preferences for pronouns, Any pronoun works for me. And for a while, I've been coming to terms with me relating and feeling at home with the niche groups/subcultures, and 'freaks n geeks' lol
Jotting down some personal self reflection in a sea of differing experiences in case it helps someone I guess.
I've identified as agender for a while, but they/them never appealed to me. It feels highly gendered to me, granted strictly in a non-binary way.
And I guess it's a little difficult to explain in my case since I'm comfortable with she/her, which are very gendered in a binary way which on a technicality is even further from my identity.
I think it's because as someone who presents in a way that most will perceive a woman, she/her is what everyone in my life assumes without thinking, and I like that they don't think. I like that it doesn't draw attention to my gender whereas they/them probably would.
For a long time, I've considered she/xir (xe, xir, xirs) but I've only brought this up in an online context where people don't have my face to go off of so it isn't as much of an adjustment.
I have found most recently however that in my personal writing (poetry, music, etc) I've taken to referring to myself with it/it's. There wasn't any thought behind it-- it just felt right. It felt authentic in a way that she/her wouldn't, which is particularly rare for me. So I've been imagining trying it/it's in a social context, but I can't tell if hearing someone else using it for me would feel as right as it does for me to use it for myself. Particular preferences come to mind, like "use she/her in casual mentions, but it/it's when referring to me in a broader, fuller sense" But what does that even mean? I can't ask people to do that, so I think I'm just going to keep it/it's as personal pronouns I use for myself, and let others continue to call me she/her in person (and occasionally she/xir online.)
I am so happy that I'm not alone in my experience of "they/them" becoming gendered.
I would love to go by it/its but... People have problems with it and I can choose to argue with them or just baffle them with refusing to fit the mould they've decided I have to fit
How is "they/them" becoming gendered?
@@svgaming263 When I came out to my sis, the first thing she insisted was that I get "the haircut" and then she got confused and insistant when I said no. She also got upset bc I wanted things that "didn't fit", like how I hope to start microdosing on T bc there are physical changes I want. There's preconceived notions around how a person going by they/them "is supposed to present" and as we know, presentation in the cis mind equals identity.
@@jentzi23 damn. I was just trying to be like "Erm that isn't actually happening" but I guess your sis is the exception. Although I'm curious as to if the stereotypes for people who use they/them are the same as stereotypes for people who go by neopronouns. It feels to me like these are nonbinary stereotypes, not specifically they/them stereotypes.
@@svgaming263 People are as confused by neopronouns as they are when they go by it/its (for mostly the same reason) so it's definitely not tied to nonbinary identities as such.
It's honestly depressing bc when people who don't "fit" into the stereotype of "they/them" say they are nonbinary, cis people will mostly ignore it. It reinforces the stereotype and people (both in the community and outside it) start policing expression instead of learning that "they/them" can be anyone and look like anything.
Sis wasn't the exception. She was echoing what she'd picked up.
@@jentzi23 your sis is probably an exception. I simply find it hard to believe that most people who know of nonbinary people care for these stereotypes.
I'm confused as to what you are trying to say with the rest of your message. It doesn't seem very relevent to mine.
Also to be clear "it/its" ARE neopronouns.
My only issue with It/Its is that the word refers to an object... and I don't see anyone as an object. I'll still respect your choice but it sure doesn't make me feel good calling someone an "it".
"It" can also refer to a force of nature, or to a feeling, like love. A sunset. An experience. Those are all "it's" and beautiful things.
I think that's a matter of perspective and how you conceptualise what an "object" is and on the other hand it's just a different use-case. words refer to what we use them for and while there are more conventional and more abstract uses, that's just language and language is flexible. that's HOW we have poetry. on the other hand, a baby bird will have it's cute little beak, but it's still a living and feeling entity, worthy of at least some respect. so, by just broadening that respect, even if you don't recouple the idea of an object, the respect for it/its pronouns can still be on the same level as any other human.
I'm in a similar boat even though I'm open to using them. I've had an experience with people calling me, an it and in my personal experience, it makes me feel like I'm not seen as human.
We use "she" for boats but we still use it for women.
And I am a human that exists so, yes, I am an object, too.
Using it/its pronouns makes me feel like I'm attacking someone. I don't want to do that. If you ask me to use those pronouns for you, it feels like you are asking me to hit you with a shovel.
I'm over 30 as well. Cool to know that you're from my generation 😁
I'm an allistic binary trans woman and my pronouns are She/It ☺️
I just want to say thank you for this video. I use they/it and a lot of what you said in this video is similar to how I feel. I don't have autism though so I don't relate to that part, but I am also agender and also use they/them in public because people just got all weirded out when I said I liked being called it. I think the main thing I like about it/its pronouns is the nonhuman aspect of it- it's just something I resonate with.
I just think of it/its and immediately got like objects like what a table would go by when it comes to pronouns and gender but I guess neo pronouns are way different from what I thought thx for clarifying!!
My biggest issue with referring to someone as "it/its" is it feels like i'm dehumanizing the individual.. and while i understand the "otherized" feelings (im also a trans individual on the spectrum), i don't know how to justify referring to a person in the same way that i refer to an object. I don't even call animals or extra terrestrials "it"... 🤔
If the justifications are "because thats what said individual wants then it overcomplicates a subject that doesn't need to be. The entire point of pronouns is to simplify speach and neopronouns are essentially nicknames with how messy they can be... i don't mind nicknames but they don't replace pronouns.
The way you described "they"'s normalization is a bit concerning. Does this mean that if "it" were normalized, you would reject it as well? If so then this would be an issue noone but you can solve.
I hope you don't take offense to my statements. They are intended to be explanitory and inquisitive.
I'm gonna be honest, I don't think "they/them" has been normalized in the mainstream or just every day life where people aren't as educated on certain queer issues and topics as others are online and "they/them" is only stereotyped in the mainstream because it isn't taken as seriously as "she/her" or "he/him" because everything is still so intensely and unnecessarily gendered. Like, if people see an androgynous person who's AFAB, they're gonna use "she/her" despite being a bit confused and it's a headache to correct these people because you aren't taken as seriously since you're associated with this weird stereotype thing. If that makes sense.
"It/Its" doesn't have the same treatment as "they/them", which might make people more comfortable to use it due to it because there isn't a heavy stereotype attached to it... yet. But I feel like once "they/them" pronouns get taken seriously more, I feel like more people will feel comfortable using it again. Even if you look at certain nonbinary celebrities like Demi Lovato, you can see how they backtracked and started using "she/her" pronouns again due to the backlash and people just refusing to use their preferred pronouns, so we still have a ways to go to get "Normies" on our side.
@@PGOuma I was using the verbatem they utilized but thank you for clarifying.
if you feel uncomfortable using it/its for someone who prefers those pronouns because you feel like you're dehumanizing the person, that is a discomfort coming from within yourself that you need to work on. i understand why you feel that way, and it's not wrong for you to feel like that, but it is never anyone else's responsibility to cater their identity to your comfortability. if you truly will not use it/its for someone because it makes _you_ uncomfortable, then that's a feeling you need to work on. sit with that discomfort, and eventually learn to be comfortable in those situations. because respecting someone else's identity is never about doing what's easy for you. it's about showing the other person that you care about them enough to make these small changes.
@kayden8093 that's unfortunately not a sufficient reasoning for referring to a person in the same way that I refer to an object. It's like if someone wanted to change their legal name to "shit under a toiletseat," are you sure it's me who is the one struggling with something? Yes, I'm aware that that's an extreme example, but there is a line somewhere in there. A point where we question if the individual is asking to be treated like less than human? Less than living? I get wanting to empathize with someone but there is a point where the empathy turns to concern like I know what it feels like to be on the brink of bringing an end to my life but I'm not going to just say "have a nice fall" to a person looking over the side of a bridge... (Yes, yet another extreme example...)
To sum it up, where do we draw the line of self depreciation?.. and why is it not referring to yourself as nonliving object?.. are the questions I'd need answers to to be capable of changing my thought pattern.
@Lux - ok so I am 3 minutes in here and I want to make sure I understand: it/its because you feel that emphasizes your lack of a gender, rather than your lack of adherence to the major gender categories. Would that be about right?
It's a thought-provoking idea; Otherkin come to mind, for example. Hmmmm is that why all the draconic imagery???
Yeah I think that would be a fair understanding, that they/them refers to nonbinary genders while it/its fits agender better
also yeah kind of, I do say "I am the dragon" and when people ask if the dragon has a name I say not really because he's just me (interestingly I always feel like referring to the dragon as "he" but I also do that for when I'm putting my own face in thumbnails)
I don't know what Otherkin are, but I'm definitely here for this deep dive gender discussion. I love hearing about other people's experiences of gender (or not).
This was interesting, it helped me understand using it/its a bit better. I will still use those pronouns if someone goes by them, but unfortunately it is viscerally uncomfortable because in the 90s/00s I only heard people around me call a person “it” when they were being viciously homophobic/transphobic/racist. I imagine it will eventually lose some of the taboo just like other reclaimed terms though the more people use them.
I probably couldnt use "it/its" for myself, partly because thats for objects, mostly because I guess I feel the need to lean towards one binary gender to make it clear enough that I'm rejecting the other one.
That being said I remember it somehow "feeling right" when for in game reasons irrelevant to the story one player keot referring to my character by their title rather than use their name. I still remember that more than ten years later so it probably scratched some kind of itch
I'm not gonna pretend using it/its pronouns aren't still really awkward for me to use. Not that right-wingers continuing to use it/its to dehumanise us definitely doesn't help. But I do want to work at whittling away at that particular repulsion reflex for the sake of my fellow trans people.
I’m just a trans woman trying to navigate in a deep red state of WV
8:55 Oooo I've been waiting for this :D I'm nonbinary alterhuman ^ ^
I've also been associated with girls even though I'm a guy. And I don't mind that. Been a part of girl talks often when the girls forgot I was a guy. So I don't care what I am called as well. It she him shim I don't care.
Your thoughts on gender are extremely relatable. I... Well, I decided to avoid using pronouns altogether.
I'm name/nickname only.
And I want to be seen just as Raptie, agender disaster lesbian.
I love experimenting with different outfits, but I want to be seen as physically _female_ no matter what I wear. That's the body I'm most comfortable with.
Touching back on the pronoun thing, people have trouble constructing sentences without using third-person pronouns, so I've learned to just go with she/her as a backup. :O
(I'd like to note that I also avoid using pronouns with referring to other individuals-it makes me uncomfortable, and I'm good enough now at doing it that no one ever notices it.)
Also! I wouldn't have ever guessed you were transmac! Your voice and appearance is so completely without any gender that it's impressive!
Final note: Not to get too personal, but there are now bottom surgery procedures that are specialized to give people working sets of both genitals, if you or anyone you know has been looking for something like that.
Based!
15:05 - semi related, I never have communication issues when I talk to other people with ADHD. My neurotypical friends will be like wait, what? How the fuck did you get there??? We were talking about [completely unrelated thing] and even when I explain each individual leap they just don't get it. My ADHD best friend never has that problem, they just follow right on along. It's so much easier.
I'm like "I'd love to use neopronouns but none of them feel right for myself so I just go with they/them" lol