My last church was exclusively female leadership. Pastor Worship leader and every teacher but 1. It was a real stuggle to accept this was wrong because it was such a loving church. My husband moved us to a church that is founded on Male decipleship and leadership development. Its been sobering and peaceful.
As a complementarian, this is a very big and nuanced issue that I don't feel is given justice by 3 older men debating what it looks like. I respect the teaching of these pastors and understand that there is much more to this topic than a 9 minute video can cover. Now something I feel is missing is the fact that by definition comlepentarianism acknowledges that men and women are gifted differently in a way that compliments (fits together) each other. While men are called to lead and to be the head of the home and church, it is not a headship that disregards the gifting and advice of women. There are many ways that my wife is more gifted than I am in the home. I am still the authority, but I make sure to humbly listen to her advice about areas where she is stronger than me. So too it should be in the church. To paraphrase Jen Wilkin, not including women is church leadership at all is like a single father trying to raise children without their mother. There are just some things he isn't equipped to handle All of the passages that talk about male headship and female submission have a context of mutual submission to one another under the ultimate authority of Christ. I don't think there is an easy "one size fits all" answer to how things should play out always. We should always approach these discussions humbly in prayer submitting to the will of the Father as revealed in Scripture.
And what does it matter whether it's 3 older men discussing it? Truth is truth no matter who says it. It's clear which side of the social justice crowd you're on and it's not the biblical one.
Emilio Ares The scripture about mutual submission is very clearly referring only to Christians submitting to other Christians and nothing to do with husband and wife. The wife submits to the husband in the same clear way that the church submits to Jesus as the head and leader.
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 It's important to let the scriptures settle any argument or discussion. Our desires and opinions must be subjected to the authority of the Word of God.
@@vilicus77 Certainly deeper than the very shallow interviews on NPR and PBS with their naively sophomoric, solely friendly questions for left leaning, Democratic guests and simplistically antagonostic questions for conservatives. Also deeper than the barbershoplike discussions on Sunday morning public affairs shows. Wouldn't be surprised if you found debates on late night comedy "in depth."
This is really boring. This is just reiterating what men and women ought to do but doesn't explain why. The most interesting and pertinent question is the why of it. What is essentially different between men and women that they ought or ought not hold these offices?
To those who are not Christians, please don’t take this discussion as the norm, what the Bible and church actually teach or (&esp) representative of our Creator. This entrenched theological position - in my personal opinion - is something we as the church will find incredulous down the line when we get some reality distance on things and we as men don’t have “holy (cow) ground “ to defend in our insecurity. To all women, Gods most exquisite creation, please forgive us men for shutting the doors on you for so long And using you to our benefit - even (&especially) in the church. If what I’m saying bugs you, ask God for wisdom for us both ... & please tread forward cautiously just in case you are indeed Missing it and inflicting Abuse, pain and insult on the women in your care. Peace.
Don't worry, those of us who are not Christians think it is all crazy and were just here to prevent religious thinking from gaining a foothold in the broader culture.
Caliban it’s exactly religious thinking that twists and destroys the good news into something unrecognizable. I think Jesus has as much time for it today as he did 2000 years ago. ✌🏼
@@PRSMtax When I say religious thinking, that means every version of Christianity too. The complementarity people practice today is very different than how marriage existed in the first century. These things are not alike.
When you say “please forgive us for using you for our benefit and shutting doors on you” that’s exactly what they are saying complementarianism is not. If men have been doing this it is not the sacrificial love that we are called to give our wives.
Uuummmmmm skinny guy in the middle with glasses talking about how women shouldn't be able to bring a word or teach a Sunday school. So you'll rob the body of what God has for them through a woman! Being a lead Pastor, no, but not allowing to share a word or a Sunday school class. Might want to dig a little deeper into the Bible.
When Sunday school is spoken of do you mean for children or the whole congregation? Because I've never seen anything in the bible that shows children being separated and taught by age group.
@@adamferguson2599 Exxxxxxactly! If you want to get technical, children's church is not a Biblical thing. But the American church isn't ready for that conversation
Paul does limit authoritative teaching and church discipline to a plurality of qualified men. These limitations are within these perimeters. Paul is specifically talking about how to set up church governance and worship. Women are never forbidden from having authority over men in general. It’s ok for a lady to tell her gardener where to put the shrubs and her Auto mechanic what to work on. It’s ok for a lady to become team lead at Mc Donald’s. Piper and crew get ridiculous about this and says women can’t even give directions to Main Street or be a cross guard or choose where to eat at a restaurant with their husband. It’s silly.
My last church was exclusively female leadership. Pastor Worship leader and every teacher but 1. It was a real stuggle to accept this was wrong because it was such a loving church. My husband moved us to a church that is founded on Male decipleship and leadership development. Its been sobering and peaceful.
As a complementarian, this is a very big and nuanced issue that I don't feel is given justice by 3 older men debating what it looks like. I respect the teaching of these pastors and understand that there is much more to this topic than a 9 minute video can cover.
Now something I feel is missing is the fact that by definition comlepentarianism acknowledges that men and women are gifted differently in a way that compliments (fits together) each other. While men are called to lead and to be the head of the home and church, it is not a headship that disregards the gifting and advice of women. There are many ways that my wife is more gifted than I am in the home. I am still the authority, but I make sure to humbly listen to her advice about areas where she is stronger than me. So too it should be in the church. To paraphrase Jen Wilkin, not including women is church leadership at all is like a single father trying to raise children without their mother. There are just some things he isn't equipped to handle
All of the passages that talk about male headship and female submission have a context of mutual submission to one another under the ultimate authority of Christ. I don't think there is an easy "one size fits all" answer to how things should play out always. We should always approach these discussions humbly in prayer submitting to the will of the Father as revealed in Scripture.
Women can lead children and other women in the church. It is a black and white issue when it comes to church leadership.
And what does it matter whether it's 3 older men discussing it? Truth is truth no matter who says it. It's clear which side of the social justice crowd you're on and it's not the biblical one.
Emilio Ares
The scripture about mutual submission is very clearly referring only to Christians submitting to other Christians and nothing to do with husband and wife. The wife submits to the husband in the same clear way that the church submits to Jesus as the head and leader.
Aren’t husband and wife both Christians and wouldn’t that be “Christians submitting to other Christians”?
Nothing to do?? They come right after each other!
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15
It's important to let the scriptures settle any argument or discussion.
Our desires and opinions must be subjected to the authority of the Word of God.
Love these in depth discussions! Praise God for you brothers! Sup pastor D
In depth? I don't hear on a dissenting opinion. And where are the women. This is not "in depth."
@@vilicus77 Certainly deeper than the very shallow interviews on NPR and PBS with their naively sophomoric, solely friendly questions for left leaning, Democratic guests and simplistically antagonostic questions for conservatives. Also deeper than the barbershoplike discussions on Sunday morning public affairs shows. Wouldn't be surprised if you found debates on late night comedy "in depth."
This is really boring. This is just reiterating what men and women ought to do but doesn't explain why. The most interesting and pertinent question is the why of it. What is essentially different between men and women that they ought or ought not hold these offices?
What about women with the title Apostle...or functioning as Missionaries and planting churches?
Can be a tough subject, well handled
To those who are not Christians, please don’t take this discussion as the norm, what the Bible and church actually teach or (&esp) representative of our Creator.
This entrenched theological position - in my personal opinion - is something we as the church will find incredulous down the line when we get some reality distance on things and we as men don’t have “holy (cow) ground “ to defend in our insecurity.
To all women, Gods most exquisite creation, please forgive us men for shutting the doors on you for so long And using you to our benefit - even (&especially) in the church.
If what I’m saying bugs you, ask God for wisdom for us both ... & please tread forward cautiously just in case you are indeed Missing it and inflicting Abuse, pain and insult on the women in your care.
Peace.
Don't worry, those of us who are not Christians think it is all crazy and were just here to prevent religious thinking from gaining a foothold in the broader culture.
Caliban it’s exactly religious thinking that twists and destroys the good news into something unrecognizable. I think Jesus has as much time for it today as he did 2000 years ago. ✌🏼
@@PRSMtax When I say religious thinking, that means every version of Christianity too. The complementarity people practice today is very different than how marriage existed in the first century. These things are not alike.
When you say “please forgive us for using you for our benefit and shutting doors on you” that’s exactly what they are saying complementarianism is not. If men have been doing this it is not the sacrificial love that we are called to give our wives.
I want to see them have this discussion again in a year and see what they believe then.
They would still believe the same I bet
When you settle the discussion by the Word of God, time does not change the decisions.
They’ve been saying the same thing for decades
Uuummmmmm skinny guy in the middle with glasses talking about how women shouldn't be able to bring a word or teach a Sunday school. So you'll rob the body of what God has for them through a woman! Being a lead Pastor, no, but not allowing to share a word or a Sunday school class. Might want to dig a little deeper into the Bible.
When Sunday school is spoken of do you mean for children or the whole congregation? Because I've never seen anything in the bible that shows children being separated and taught by age group.
Agreed with you Lydia
@@adamferguson2599 Exxxxxxactly! If you want to get technical, children's church is not a Biblical thing. But the American church isn't ready for that conversation
1 Timothy 2 is clear about women not to teach men, or exercise authority over men. This follows God's creation order.
Paul does limit authoritative teaching and church discipline to a plurality of qualified men.
These limitations are within these perimeters. Paul is specifically talking about how to set up church governance and worship.
Women are never forbidden from having authority over men in general. It’s ok for a lady to tell her gardener where to put the shrubs and her
Auto mechanic what to work on. It’s ok for a lady to become team lead at Mc Donald’s.
Piper and crew get ridiculous about this and says women can’t even give directions to Main Street or be a cross guard or choose where to eat at a restaurant with their husband. It’s silly.