Dear Pastor Keller, As an evolutionary biologist, I really appreciate the humility it takes to “admit” you believe scripture above scientific consensus. It’s also important to note that scientific consensus operates within methodological naturalism (which is tantamount to philosophical naturalism) and so only “natural” and non-agent causes are allowed as inferences to the best explanation for past events like the emergence of humankind. Commitment to naturalism means that if the answer to an origin question is special creation, then the model will never align with historical reality. It is not necessary to do science this way, but unfortunately we are trained to think it is required. I have never accepted that premise and so find no conflict between my Christian worldview and my scientific endeavors.
I heard Ken Miller describing the issues surrounding chromosome 2 once (Miller being Catholic). He said he doesn’t believe in a deceptive God that would make it look to the observer like Chromosome two was the result of fusion pointing directly to a common ancestry with the great apes. I’m an admirer of Tim Keller as well, and I think he’s right here. That if Adam and Eve were not a special creation, (as the ID proponents tried to argue before the mapping of the genome), then it requires a fundamental reexamination of the Bible and the classical doctrine and orthodoxy of original sin and substitutionary atonement.
Tim mentioned God creating human kind with love and joy. Does God experience Love and Joy the way we understand it? I'm a believer but a very very challenged one.
Right on Ligon Duncan "Creation ex nihilo", "science" cannot and will not acknowledge God brought into existence by his word. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1:1-3)
Indeed... either the Text is being interpreted wrongly or... science is being interpreted wrongly... or a division between both, but what the Text is saying is not wrong, and science isn't saying anything... it really is just straight data with multiple interpretations imposed on it, and those interpretations are ever-changing. Spurgeon has a great quote about " the Broken Bottles of Science".... broken bottles indeed!
Thank you Ligon Duncan for caring about the truth of the creation story! God explained our history bu starting in Genesis and so many well-meaning Godly men neglect the very foundation of the creation. I pray that more Godly men will begin to care about the concrete, physical, objective, truth of God's creation as it pertains to our current state of separation from Him.
Four or five “orthodox” views on evolution hardly suggests Christianity, as a revealed religion, has truth to offer. It suggests Christian scholars, like everyone else, simply offers their best thinking, not revealed truth. As a believer in the Lord Jesus, I fail to see how such a framework could really attract thoughtful unbelievers.
What about the fall ? Saying that creation is good, is fine, but it is of no value to us unless we teach the fall. 1 John 2:15 is clear that anybody that loves the world does not have the love of the Father. Jesus said that the world hated him because he testified that the works of the world are evil. Nothing mentioned about the lost and sinful condition of the world. God's creation was good, but it was ruined by the fall of Adam, and that needs to be taught to a world that travails in pain, Romans 8:22 . The teaching that creation is good, the promotion of social justice, and so forth, none of this has any bearing to reality, the world after the fall of Adam is hopeless, fallen, nothing works, there is unending pain, none of this has been taught in this video. Pretty sad, but what can you expect of those that deny a 6 24-hour day creation like the ones on this video, and teach that there is no conflict between christianity and science. God no doubt created the universe in 6 24-hour days, otherwise why would the commandment to obey the Sabbath say that God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th, and therefore man must rest on the 7th day (the sabbath) if the days of creation are not 24-hour days. By denying this and adhering to an old earth and stating the days of creations are millions of years, these men rob God of his glory in creating the world in 6 24-hour days in a supernatural manner. Supernatural events like creation cannot be explained by science , period and we must not rob God of his glory by even suggesting there is a scientific explanation for a super natural act of God, a miracle, because this is what God's creation is.
Bill K The fall is very important, regarding the days in genesis I would recommend the book Genesis unbound, this book will be of benefit to understand the difference between creating and forming.
@@eddiegallegos7672 OK, regardless what anybody says the scripture is clear that Adam and Eve were created around 4000 BC, i.e. a bit over 6000 years ago. Before then there was no death in the earth, because the fall occurred when Adam ate the forbidden fruit, and sin and death entered the world at that time. Any view that states that somehow there was any form of death whatsoever (including animals) prior to 4000 BC is total heresy in my view, and contradicts scripture. These men on the video all are promoting a heretic view, because they are bowing to unproven pseudo-scientific theories that plainly contradict the account in scripture. Unless we say no to pseudo science that undermines the faith, we are denying the super natural act of creation of God, which certainly confounds the scientists and throws the wisdom of man out the window. Trying to reconcile the wisdom of God in his supernatural act of creation, with the wisdom of man (science or better pseudo science) is a deadly compromise that ushers in apostacy.
@Austin Slayton Evidence for what ? I do not have to provide you with any evidence, by faith we know God created the heavens and the earth. Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
What I heard is that Adam and Eve were real people that God created specially, because salvation according to Paul doesn’t make sense otherwise…but that there are a number of interpretations around the length of “days”, evolution’s role, etc. So, partially literal and (perhaps) partially not.
8:20 I wonder if any of that consensus is different now. I think I've read newer studies that it's possible the mt-MRCA and Y-MRCA lived at the same time.
Thank you for this presentation, it was very good. We need to believe that God is, before we can allow Him to intersect in our lives. Our culture has a void in this area. It was Lyell and Darwin who, via biological uniformitarianism, moved science away from an objective field into one where faith and God are dropped from all equations. Today, unless you hold to the "correct view" you will be ostracized in the scientific community. Science is not "settled" it is observation & theory, but has been turned into its own religion of absolutes. Many would prefer to believe they are cosmic accidents, rather than being created in the image of a Creator God.
8:45 I wonder whether when the Bible says God created Adam out of the "dust of the ground" might it still not be a metaphorical expression meaning that Adam was the final being in an evolutionary chain which began out of the ground and ended with Adam ?
Don't say that you'll anger Ken Ham 😂😂😂 nah bruh I have considered it. I reject it, but with WAY less disgust. It's an acceptable view in my point, it's just not right in my eyes!
If believers are really honest the truth is no one really knows but God. My mother and father were both good Christians but they were knowledgable about the World. One has to ALWAYS keep in mind to follow the $$$. People like Ken Ham are making large amounts of money off their interpretations of the Bible. The thing that bothers me is alot of Christian believers like to immediately make a fight about almost everything and they instantly have to PROVE THEY ARE RIGHT AND EVERY ONE ELSE IS WRONG! Sadly this is driving away young people and it divides the Body of Christ. Blessed are the Peace Makers...
If you accept the Bible and Jesus for what and who they claim to be then this is flatly wrong. Jesus quotes Adam and Eve being made “in the beginning of creation”.
***you can say that: "a square is a circle", it is OK, it is your believe, you can believe in what ever you wish, but mind you it will never change that a square is a square and a circle is a circle; live with your "truth" but leave alone other "truths" as it can be that some crazy one who believes that a square is a "pentagon" .***
cat to the max # reaction cat No death before the fall. That’s is why it’s so important to understand Adams Free will, and our Sinful will. Adam could choose God. We can’t. Our sinful nature won’t will it. Solution = Regeneration Bible dictionaries are very helpful.
Before "the fall" there was no human death, because humans were created perfect and in Gods image. The animals were not created in Gods image nor perfect. They died. God created a wonderful eco system where animals fed on other animals. Death for humans entered the world when Adam sinned. The animals did not sin.
A conservative version of theistic, creationistic evolution would say Adam came from a group of hominids living at the time but was changed and entered into a special covenant at that time.
Know them all: gullibility, self deception, biased thinking, wishfulness, make-believe, obfuscating of reality, servility masked complacency, the active denial of and unwillingness to face reality on reality's terms.
Monica Dcunha It sounds like you were inferring that Bible believers believe in a flat earth. The answer is no, the Bible doesn’t teach that the earth is flat.
@@keithwilson6060 ok, cause now lot of bible believing Christians believe in flat earth. So I wanted to know and have right knowledge about this. Ok how can we tell them that its wrong ? And that earth is globa and not flat ?
The firmament mentioned in the Bible is a solid dome structure. It was part of the ancient Hebrew cosmology(view on structure of heavens and earth )that was very similar to other cosmological views at their time. That’s ok though, the Bible was never intended to be a science book.
Theistic evolution holds no water, and Old earth creation is based on wrong presuppositions. It's one thing to "believe IN God" but it's another to "Believe God". To believe what he says. The statements, the promises, the truth. So if God says Jesus is the only way, its not enough to believe God exists or that he said that... one must believe the statement as truth. Also if God said in six days he created all things, if God says he created the earth first and then the sun later. If plants were before the sun, we have to take that as fact, instead of trying to put our presuppositions onto the text.
Two thoughts: bible says that to God a day is a thousand years, and a thousand years a day our ‘day’ is based on the revolution of the earth relative to the sun, yes? so, how can you say the first day of the creation story was a 24hr day, when the sun hadn’t been created yet?
@@bretttheroux8040 the typical response to that would be that the Sun and planets and such are the *placeholders* to determine time, but not what *defines* time. God has ordained a day to be as long as it is, and marks it with the the Sun. Time, as we understand it, is man-made. And we always refer to something in our measurements (which are part of creation). God, being God, doesn’t need creation to tell him what a day is if He is the one creating it. It’s a good question, though. And I think bringing up the 1000:1 day ratio mentioned in scripture is interesting. The biggest issue I have with 6-day creation is that the argument “we must take every statement as literal absolute truth from God” is never held up by anyone. If so, you must admit that the stars are “placed” and fixed, that the heavenly bodies orbit the Earth, and more. Where do we draw the line? Food for thought
@@lukemyers4797 they’re not placeholders, though. Our entire conception/understanding of time is borne out of them. Mars has shorter days, Saturn has longer days. by that explanation, people arbitrarily decided that 24hrs was one day, and 365 days was one year, and COINCIDENTALLY those aligned perfectly with a full revolution of the earth and a full rotation around the sun?
@@bretttheroux8040 just because our entire human conception of time is borne out of it does not mean it’s what defines time. if you really want to get into it... our units of time are defined by the speed of light - which is also defined by man-made units :). And yes, we decided that “24 hours” in our created units is a day, a cycle, a pattern. This was based off how we saw the sun move and planets, etc. But if the sun moon and stars disappear, 24 hours is 24 hours. God didn’t “ordain” 24 hours so to speak, but he *did* ordain the entire universe in its being, which includes the rotation of the earth. For us to claim God did not intentionally set this rotation cycle is an insane thought. All this to say, that time is time, and time passes whether there are markers for it. So 6-day creation does not fall apart just because there was nothing to visibly mark the first day. Which still begs the question: why must we assume these “days” of creation are what we have defined as 24 hours?
10:00 the science has further contributions in the form of Joshua Swamidas work/book the genealogical adam.and eve. That all humanity can be traced genealogically to an original couple aka adam and Eve
Really???, how do humans actually presume to know the mind of God? My concept of God is so HUGE and so full of wonder and respect that I would never have the audacity to judge and decide what beliefs are or are not non-negotiable. I have more awe of God than to presume I , a human, have the wisdom or understanding to decide what ideas are in or out of faith and what people are in or out of God's world. Arrogance of the Pharisee in the temple but now on youtube. Bunch of men puffed up with their own self importance and sense of wisdom talking in circles.
There is no guessing about it, read God's word and believe it or don't. But don't ask science if what the bible says is true. God created science. If there is any question about which is right and which is wrong, God and His word is ALWAYS right, science is very flawed.
they’re referring to augustine’s arguments in defense of Christianity. If you’re trying to witness to an atheist that rejects the Bible as authoritative, you need to be equipped with arguments and rationality that comes from outside the Bible.
Tim Keller - "how do you build a society of justice and peace when you say "well nature is really all about power"? Tim Keller thinks that justice and peace have no practical power to shape and influence a society in terms of its ability to thrive, compete and survive? I think his idea of the tooth and claw "power" of nature might be too narrow. That's not to say that might doesn't have a place in society. Justice often needs to be enforced for example. But show me a relatively peaceful, cooperative society with rules and a sense of justice pitted against a comparable one that lacks those qualities and I'd not bet so quickly on the long term chances of the lawless one!
Societies demonstrate a few qualities in these areas. 1) There is a given order that those with resources or power find a way to give themselves special treatment. They appear to be just, as that is desirable, but are playing the system for the goods. 2) People who are naturally a bit crooked & self controlled, will rise to the top & command positions of power. 3) You will also find people of skill subjugated by those in power to further wealth accumulation & power. The point being, even given there is an ethos that espouses equality, odds are it is a sham. It is rules for people under a certain level of affluence. Those above it can bend those rules or even out & out break them. The question is only how transparent is the double standard. Not that those within such rules don't do that, because they do. They just fail to get away with it for long. That is human history. A velvet glove on an iron fist. The gloves existance, does not deny the fist beneath it. If you doubt it point out to someone of authority over you what they are doing wrong, to their face & repeatedly. Even if what you say to them is true, you will find yourself bearing the marks of claws. Not because they are doing the right thing, but because you attempted to break the pecking order. Iron fist, velvet glove.
You are describing today's Social Justice society of chaos. Only a Marxist anti-god person would make such a remark without any specifics or facts. You demonstrate you are nothing but a fool. Be gone.
@@section508smefeedback6 What alternative are you comparing it to in order to judge the relative chaos? An actual example of a society without any system of justice or peaceful cooperation that is less chaotic?
@@mackdmara You speak clearly of Marxist consequences. Nothing is based on justice, only on what they deem to be deserving or just which is totally arbitrary. Its a system based on lies & deception and starts with class warfare to take power and never relent it. Its is pure evil.
@@wishlist011 Merely, we had law & order in place before the chaos, and now the governors & mayors of the Progressive Dems who embrace Social Justice refuse to confront its chaos for political reasons. It is nothing but a power grab. No one is going to be better off. Ask if the 200 people killed in the last 90 days thinks so. Ask the 500 shop owners with burned down shops think so. Where is the Social Justice for them? Its all a sham. And for anyone to believe otherwise is truly very naive or very deceived.
You know, that scientific idea that it was a small group, I find that goes hand in hand with Noah's family.. Sure they all still had a common ancestor, but the way I understand it, the curse of Cain that was on Ham's wife, Egyptus, and from which the Egyptians sprang, could very easily have modified her DNA enough away from the rest of the Adam and Eve's descendents and provided enough genetic diversity to give the impression of more than a single couple. Also how can you say Creation Ex Nihilo is central to Christianity when the original Hebrew wording means created/organised as in out of pre-existing particles...?
I think you can get Ex Nihilo from many, many places in the scriptures. Two very good examples are John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16. These verses tell us that God is separate from creation. Matter did not coexist eternally with God, but that whatever is seen or unseen was brought into existence by God. So I think Ex Nihilo is correct.
06:50 IF Christianity is true, then we have God creating all but playing favorites with his chosen people. How is it better than what the science offers? And, IF Christianity is true, then the majority of the world's population ends up in an eternal hell. How is this better than science? There is nothing attractive about that. I guess, one could think it's an attractive idea IF one considers himself to be part of the chosen group.
Read some of his stuff. I'd say he's eager to really believe the Bible, as truth, as authoritative, as perfect. He's ALSO willing to question it and nut it out. Which I'd say christians should do :) He's written some articles on his thoughts on creation/evolution and Genesis. Before we make judgements we should be very careful to understand what the other person is really proposing.
Gandalf The Grey he's eager to really believe...I know those are your words, but they reveal that you sense his unbelief of the Genesis account too. Keep looking up, Jesus is coming soon!
Using intellect to do a damage limitation job on their embarrassment of a simple Biblical Creation. How many times Tim Keller talks about Justice and Peace in society, to try and intellectually redeem the situation.
Tim Keller preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There’s nothing wrong with using our intellect to content for the truth of Christianity. This is called apologetics.
Dear Pastor Keller, As an evolutionary biologist, I really appreciate the humility it takes to “admit” you believe scripture above scientific consensus. It’s also important to note that scientific consensus operates within methodological naturalism (which is tantamount to philosophical naturalism) and so only “natural” and non-agent causes are allowed as inferences to the best explanation for past events like the emergence of humankind. Commitment to naturalism means that if the answer to an origin question is special creation, then the model will never align with historical reality. It is not necessary to do science this way, but unfortunately we are trained to think it is required. I have never accepted that premise and so find no conflict between my Christian worldview and my scientific endeavors.
I heard Ken Miller describing the issues surrounding chromosome 2 once (Miller being Catholic).
He said he doesn’t believe in a deceptive God that would make it look to the observer like Chromosome two was the result of fusion pointing directly to a common ancestry with the great apes.
I’m an admirer of Tim Keller as well, and I think he’s right here.
That if Adam and Eve were not a special creation, (as the ID proponents tried to argue before the mapping of the genome), then it requires a fundamental reexamination of the Bible and the classical doctrine and orthodoxy of original sin and substitutionary atonement.
How would you prove a non natural agent though?
Tim mentioned God creating human kind with love and joy. Does God experience Love and Joy the way we understand it? I'm a believer but a very very challenged one.
Yes friend, I believe He does! Our experiences of love and joy are reflections of the love and joy of God!
Right on Ligon Duncan "Creation ex nihilo", "science" cannot and will not acknowledge God brought into existence by his word.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1:1-3)
Indeed... either the Text is being interpreted wrongly or... science is being interpreted wrongly... or a division between both, but what the Text is saying is not wrong, and science isn't saying anything... it really is just straight data with multiple interpretations imposed on it, and those interpretations are ever-changing. Spurgeon has a great quote about " the Broken Bottles of Science".... broken bottles indeed!
Thank you Ligon Duncan for caring about the truth of the creation story! God explained our history bu starting in Genesis and so many well-meaning Godly men neglect the very foundation of the creation.
I pray that more Godly men will begin to care about the concrete, physical, objective, truth of God's creation as it pertains to our current state of separation from Him.
Four or five “orthodox” views on evolution hardly suggests Christianity, as a revealed religion, has truth to offer. It suggests Christian scholars, like everyone else, simply offers their best thinking, not revealed truth. As a believer in the Lord Jesus, I fail to see how such a framework could really attract thoughtful unbelievers.
What about the fall ? Saying that creation is good, is fine, but it is of no value to us unless we teach the fall. 1 John 2:15 is clear that anybody that loves the world does not have the love of the Father. Jesus said that the world hated him because he testified that the works of the world are evil. Nothing mentioned about the lost and sinful condition of the world. God's creation was good, but it was ruined by the fall of Adam, and that needs to be taught to a world that travails in pain, Romans 8:22 . The teaching that creation is good, the promotion of social justice, and so forth, none of this has any bearing to reality, the world after the fall of Adam is hopeless, fallen, nothing works, there is unending pain, none of this has been taught in this video. Pretty sad, but what can you expect of those that deny a 6 24-hour day creation like the ones on this video, and teach that there is no conflict between christianity and science. God no doubt created the universe in 6 24-hour days, otherwise why would the commandment to obey the Sabbath say that God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th, and therefore man must rest on the 7th day (the sabbath) if the days of creation are not 24-hour days. By denying this and adhering to an old earth and stating the days of creations are millions of years, these men rob God of his glory in creating the world in 6 24-hour days in a supernatural manner. Supernatural events like creation cannot be explained by science , period and we must not rob God of his glory by even suggesting there is a scientific explanation for a super natural act of God, a miracle, because this is what God's creation is.
Amen!
Bill K
The fall is very important, regarding the days in genesis I would recommend the book
Genesis unbound, this book will be of benefit to understand the difference between creating and forming.
@@eddiegallegos7672 OK, regardless what anybody says the scripture is clear that Adam and Eve were created around 4000 BC, i.e. a bit over 6000 years ago. Before then there was no death in the earth, because the fall occurred when Adam ate the forbidden fruit, and sin and death entered the world at that time. Any view that states that somehow there was any form of death whatsoever (including animals) prior to 4000 BC is total heresy in my view, and contradicts scripture. These men on the video all are promoting a heretic view, because they are bowing to unproven pseudo-scientific theories that plainly contradict the account in scripture. Unless we say no to pseudo science that undermines the faith, we are denying the super natural act of creation of God, which certainly confounds the scientists and throws the wisdom of man out the window. Trying to reconcile the wisdom of God in his supernatural act of creation, with the wisdom of man (science or better pseudo science) is a deadly compromise that ushers in apostacy.
@Austin Slayton Evidence for what ? I do not have to provide you with any evidence, by faith we know God created the heavens and the earth. Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
@Austin Slayton manuscript evidence, fulfilled prophecy, the complexity of creation, there are many things. You can choose to ignore them if you wish.
Is Tim Keller really still saying that he’s reading Genesis literally?
Sadly yes that’s his claim
What I heard is that Adam and Eve were real people that God created specially, because salvation according to Paul doesn’t make sense otherwise…but that there are a number of interpretations around the length of “days”, evolution’s role, etc. So, partially literal and (perhaps) partially not.
8:20 I wonder if any of that consensus is different now. I think I've read newer studies that it's possible the mt-MRCA and Y-MRCA lived at the same time.
That is fascinating. I suppose it is possible that the consensus will change yet again, whilst man continues to research this question.
Thank you for this presentation, it was very good. We need to believe that God is, before we can allow Him to intersect in our lives. Our culture has a void in this area. It was Lyell and Darwin who, via biological uniformitarianism, moved science away from an objective field into one where faith and God are dropped from all equations. Today, unless you hold to the "correct view" you will be ostracized in the scientific community. Science is not "settled" it is observation & theory, but has been turned into its own religion of absolutes. Many would prefer to believe they are cosmic accidents, rather than being created in the image of a Creator God.
8:45 I wonder whether when the Bible says God created Adam out of the "dust of the ground" might it still not be a metaphorical expression meaning that Adam was the final being in an evolutionary chain which began out of the ground and ended with Adam ?
Don't say that you'll anger Ken Ham 😂😂😂 nah bruh I have considered it. I reject it, but with WAY less disgust. It's an acceptable view in my point, it's just not right in my eyes!
If believers are really honest the truth is no one really knows but God.
My mother and father were both good Christians but they were knowledgable about the World. One has to ALWAYS keep in mind to follow the $$$. People like Ken Ham are making large amounts of money off their interpretations of the Bible.
The thing that bothers me is alot of Christian believers like to immediately make a fight about almost everything and they instantly have to PROVE THEY ARE RIGHT AND EVERY ONE ELSE IS WRONG!
Sadly this is driving away young people and it divides the Body of Christ. Blessed are the Peace Makers...
If you accept the Bible and Jesus for what and who they claim to be then this is flatly wrong. Jesus quotes Adam and Eve being made “in the beginning of creation”.
***you can say that: "a square is a circle", it is OK, it is your believe, you can believe in what ever you wish, but mind you it will never change that a square is a square and a circle is a circle; live with your "truth" but leave alone other "truths" as it can be that some crazy one who believes that a square is a "pentagon" .***
Was there death before Adam fell?
Exactly. I wish you could make them answer that question.
cat to the max # reaction cat
No death before the fall.
That’s is why it’s so important to understand Adams Free will, and our Sinful will.
Adam could choose God. We can’t.
Our sinful nature won’t will it.
Solution = Regeneration
Bible dictionaries are very helpful.
No, sin caused the concept of decay and death to be a thing,m. It was not even a concept until sin
Before "the fall" there was no human death, because humans were created perfect and in Gods image. The animals were not created in Gods image nor perfect. They died. God created a wonderful eco system where animals fed on other animals.
Death for humans entered the world when Adam sinned. The animals did not sin.
@@watchtowerdefence571 Wrong. ALL death entered at the point of Adam's sin.
Thank you !
A conservative version of theistic, creationistic evolution would say Adam came from a group of hominids living at the time but was changed and entered into a special covenant at that time.
Why not a special creation in the midst of a creationistic evolution. Solves both problems.
@@scotthinzman7698 boom!
Except for the fact the Bible specifically says that is false.
Know them all: gullibility, self deception, biased thinking, wishfulness, make-believe, obfuscating of reality, servility masked complacency, the active denial of and unwillingness to face reality on reality's terms.
What would you say a about flat earth ?
Does the Bible teach a flat earth?
@@keithwilson6060 that's what I'm asking and want to know.
Monica Dcunha
It sounds like you were inferring that Bible believers believe in a flat earth. The answer is no, the Bible doesn’t teach that the earth is flat.
@@keithwilson6060 ok, cause now lot of bible believing Christians believe in flat earth. So I wanted to know and have right knowledge about this. Ok how can we tell them that its wrong ? And that earth is globa and not flat ?
The firmament mentioned in the Bible is a solid dome structure. It was part of the ancient Hebrew cosmology(view on structure of heavens and earth )that was very similar to other cosmological views at their time. That’s ok though, the Bible was never intended to be a science book.
Theistic evolution holds no water, and Old earth creation is based on wrong presuppositions. It's one thing to "believe IN God" but it's another to "Believe God". To believe what he says. The statements, the promises, the truth. So if God says Jesus is the only way, its not enough to believe God exists or that he said that... one must believe the statement as truth. Also if God said in six days he created all things, if God says he created the earth first and then the sun later. If plants were before the sun, we have to take that as fact, instead of trying to put our presuppositions onto the text.
Two thoughts:
bible says that to God a day is a thousand years, and a thousand years a day
our ‘day’ is based on the revolution of the earth relative to the sun, yes? so, how can you say the first day of the creation story was a 24hr day, when the sun hadn’t been created yet?
@@bretttheroux8040 the typical response to that would be that the Sun and planets and such are the *placeholders* to determine time, but not what *defines* time. God has ordained a day to be as long as it is, and marks it with the the Sun. Time, as we understand it, is man-made. And we always refer to something in our measurements (which are part of creation). God, being God, doesn’t need creation to tell him what a day is if He is the one creating it.
It’s a good question, though. And I think bringing up the 1000:1 day ratio mentioned in scripture is interesting. The biggest issue I have with 6-day creation is that the argument “we must take every statement as literal absolute truth from God” is never held up by anyone. If so, you must admit that the stars are “placed” and fixed, that the heavenly bodies orbit the Earth, and more. Where do we draw the line?
Food for thought
@@lukemyers4797 they’re not placeholders, though. Our entire conception/understanding of time is borne out of them. Mars has shorter days, Saturn has longer days. by that explanation, people arbitrarily decided that 24hrs was one day, and 365 days was one year, and COINCIDENTALLY those aligned perfectly with a full revolution of the earth and a full rotation around the sun?
God did not ordain the 24hr period, that’s not anywhere in the Word.
@@bretttheroux8040 just because our entire human conception of time is borne out of it does not mean it’s what defines time. if you really want to get into it... our units of time are defined by the speed of light - which is also defined by man-made units :). And yes, we decided that “24 hours” in our created units is a day, a cycle, a pattern. This was based off how we saw the sun move and planets, etc. But if the sun moon and stars disappear, 24 hours is 24 hours.
God didn’t “ordain” 24 hours so to speak, but he *did* ordain the entire universe in its being, which includes the rotation of the earth. For us to claim God did not intentionally set this rotation cycle is an insane thought.
All this to say, that time is time, and time passes whether there are markers for it. So 6-day creation does not fall apart just because there was nothing to visibly mark the first day. Which still begs the question: why must we assume these “days” of creation are what we have defined as 24 hours?
And where are Keller, Moore and Duncan today (July 2022)? Woke? Still trying to please the world?
I'm watching this is in April 2023, and you're still dead wrong.
10:00 the science has further contributions in the form of Joshua Swamidas work/book the genealogical adam.and eve. That all humanity can be traced genealogically to an original couple aka adam and Eve
Robert Downey Jr.’s little brother?
Really???, how do humans actually presume to know the mind of God? My concept of God is so HUGE and so full of wonder and respect that I would never have the audacity to judge and decide what beliefs are or are not non-negotiable. I have more awe of God than to presume I , a human, have the wisdom or understanding to decide what ideas are in or out of faith and what people are in or out of God's world. Arrogance of the Pharisee in the temple but now on youtube. Bunch of men puffed up with their own self importance and sense of wisdom talking in circles.
There is no guessing about it, read God's word and believe it or don't. But don't ask science if what the bible says is true. God created science. If there is any question about which is right and which is wrong, God and His word is ALWAYS right, science is very flawed.
huh. so much for the authority of Scripture... several references to *_Augustine's arguments_* and ZERO to Jesus...
they’re referring to augustine’s arguments in defense of Christianity. If you’re trying to witness to an atheist that rejects the Bible as authoritative, you need to be equipped with arguments and rationality that comes from outside the Bible.
Wow. Mr. Duncan knows exactly how the church fathers read and interpreted Genesis 1:1 ? Fascinating.
Tim Keller - "how do you build a society of justice and peace when you say "well nature is really all about power"?
Tim Keller thinks that justice and peace have no practical power to shape and influence a society in terms of its ability to thrive, compete and survive? I think his idea of the tooth and claw "power" of nature might be too narrow. That's not to say that might doesn't have a place in society. Justice often needs to be enforced for example. But show me a relatively peaceful, cooperative society with rules and a sense of justice pitted against a comparable one that lacks those qualities and I'd not bet so quickly on the long term chances of the lawless one!
Societies demonstrate a few qualities in these areas.
1) There is a given order that those with resources or power find a way to give themselves special treatment. They appear to be just, as that is desirable, but are playing the system for the goods.
2) People who are naturally a bit crooked & self controlled, will rise to the top & command positions of power.
3) You will also find people of skill subjugated by those in power to further wealth accumulation & power.
The point being, even given there is an ethos that espouses equality, odds are it is a sham. It is rules for people under a certain level of affluence. Those above it can bend those rules or even out & out break them. The question is only how transparent is the double standard. Not that those within such rules don't do that, because they do. They just fail to get away with it for long.
That is human history. A velvet glove on an iron fist. The gloves existance, does not deny the fist beneath it. If you doubt it point out to someone of authority over you what they are doing wrong, to their face & repeatedly. Even if what you say to them is true, you will find yourself bearing the marks of claws. Not because they are doing the right thing, but because you attempted to break the pecking order.
Iron fist, velvet glove.
You are describing today's Social Justice society of chaos. Only a Marxist anti-god person would make such a remark without any specifics or facts. You demonstrate you are nothing but a fool. Be gone.
@@section508smefeedback6 What alternative are you comparing it to in order to judge the relative chaos? An actual example of a society without any system of justice or peaceful cooperation that is less chaotic?
@@mackdmara You speak clearly of Marxist consequences. Nothing is based on justice, only on what they deem to be deserving or just which is totally arbitrary. Its a system based on lies & deception and starts with class warfare to take power and never relent it. Its is pure evil.
@@wishlist011 Merely, we had law & order in place before the chaos, and now the governors & mayors of the Progressive Dems who embrace Social Justice refuse to confront its chaos for political reasons. It is nothing but a power grab. No one is going to be better off. Ask if the 200 people killed in the last 90 days thinks so. Ask the 500 shop owners with burned down shops think so. Where is the Social Justice for them? Its all a sham. And for anyone to believe otherwise is truly very naive or very deceived.
Jesus said that Man and Woman were created at the beginning. That's good enough for me.
Sorry Tim that is not the scietific consenous about Adam and Eve
You know, that scientific idea that it was a small group, I find that goes hand in hand with Noah's family.. Sure they all still had a common ancestor, but the way I understand it, the curse of Cain that was on Ham's wife, Egyptus, and from which the Egyptians sprang, could very easily have modified her DNA enough away from the rest of the Adam and Eve's descendents and provided enough genetic diversity to give the impression of more than a single couple.
Also how can you say Creation Ex Nihilo is central to Christianity when the original Hebrew wording means created/organised as in out of pre-existing particles...?
I think you can get Ex Nihilo from many, many places in the scriptures. Two very good examples are John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16. These verses tell us that God is separate from creation. Matter did not coexist eternally with God, but that whatever is seen or unseen was brought into existence by God. So I think Ex Nihilo is correct.
You can “find” that but it directly contradicts what the Bible says.
LOL. These men try to sound so erudite and then they assert "Adam and Eve" as being a factual pair of humans. LOL
06:50 IF Christianity is true, then we have God creating all but playing favorites with his chosen people. How is it better than what the science offers? And, IF Christianity is true, then the majority of the world's population ends up in an eternal hell. How is this better than science? There is nothing attractive about that. I guess, one could think it's an attractive idea IF one considers himself to be part of the chosen group.
This is why people are dumb.
You would have a much stronger argument if you could steel man, not straw man your adversaries. Straw manning is the weak apologetic device.
Educated beyond their own intelligence, sad.
Huh?
Sounds like Tim K agrees with genesis as a Christian, but doesn't really believe it. Poor chap.
Read some of his stuff. I'd say he's eager to really believe the Bible, as truth, as authoritative, as perfect. He's ALSO willing to question it and nut it out. Which I'd say christians should do :) He's written some articles on his thoughts on creation/evolution and Genesis. Before we make judgements we should be very careful to understand what the other person is really proposing.
Gandalf The Grey he's eager to really believe...I know those are your words, but they reveal that you sense his unbelief of the Genesis account too. Keep looking up, Jesus is coming soon!
He was 2000 years ago
That couldn't be less true
Gandalf The Grey very thoughtful response to that comment.
Using intellect to do a damage limitation job on their embarrassment of a simple Biblical Creation. How many times Tim Keller talks about Justice and Peace in society, to try and intellectually redeem the situation.
He forever speaks of his only gospel: The Social Justice gospel which competes with the true biblical gospel.
Tim Keller preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There’s nothing wrong with using our intellect to content for the truth of Christianity. This is called apologetics.