I think I big part of reducing this conflict will include livestock farmers deploying livestock guardian dogs & going back to traditional shepherding methods. we also need to make sure there is sufficient habitat for the lynx to live and hunt within. Where we get lynx from to reintroduce will also matter as the Scandinavian lynx have behaviours where they do occasionally hunt sheep, whereas lynx from other areas such as Belarus do not. Another point is that lynx are ambush predators, they sit and wait attacking from trees down onto prey, Norway farms graze within trees, not on open fields like we do, they are not chase predators, the likelihood of them hunting sheep successfully is minimal. to protect the lynx themselves from poisoning, traps etc, there are detection dogs that can help with that as well. we cannot keep ignoring our lack of biodiversity in this country & we should remember our history of how that occurred and a great deal of it occurred to house sheep over people, native cattle, woodlands and small crofts.
Sheep are a nuisance to me on my croft as are deer. I am concentrating on horticulture and have had to erect deer fencing to keep deer out and keep my neighbours' sheep out. Some of my sheep farming neighbours act as if their activity trumps anyone else's. Their heavy tractors used to crop grass for winter feed have compacted the soil and I am having to work hard to improve it in order to grow fruit and vegetables. The artificial fertilisers they apply leach into the river poisoning the fish. There are no hedges here and the river has little shade. The gamekeepers and water bailifs kill otters, heron and badgers. The sheep farmers have been responsible for killing off wildcats. I have witnessed some of these sheep farmers' cruelty to their stock and their dogs. I'd rather no sheep at all were farmed here. It would improve the environment enormously
Interesting debate. Fred seems to be rather receptive to the idea of lynx reintroduction and addressing biodiversity loss whilst Grace on the other hand is clearly anti-lynx. A few points I'd like to raise: I was glad to hear Fred say he was under no illusions when it comes to sheep impact on biodiversity in Scotland. Sheep are not a native species to Scotland, they are effectively an alien species. Grace said they have a positive impact on biodiversity - I completely disagree. If anything they have had the complete opposite effect. Alongside huge levels of deer they continue to prevent natural regeneration of habitats, our landscapes did not evolve alongside sheep. Cattle on the other hand are native and, like Fred says, can have positive impacts on biodiversity as part of agri-environmental schemes. I think we can safely put the myth that 'lynx will negatively impact biodiversity' straight in the bin. It is well documented that the presence of lynx in an ecosystem brings positive benefits for biodiversity. It annoyed me when Grace suggested that we need to know lynx won't negatively impact what we already have when she had already been told earlier in the discussion that this was not a legitimate concern. The question of "where does the money come from' and 'who pays for this' was raised. Sheep farming is a heavily subsidised industry in Scotland and the majority of upland sheep farming wouldn't actually be profitable if it were not for government subsidies. This for me raises the question of why should we as taxpayers be funding what would appear to be a failing industry? Personally I'd much prefer our taxes were spent on making our landscapes richer with wildlife and more resilient to climate change. If this meant giving farmers subsidies to partly rewild their land to create better habitats for waders or planting trees to help reduce the impact of flooding then I'm all for that. It could possibly mean helping those farms - which are able to turn profit without the subsidies - to safeguard themselves against lynx (stock fencing, livestock guardian dogs, etc). I think this would be a better use of public money than funding a failing business that has a negative impact on the landscape. For me, sheep farming subsidies is a bit of an elephant in the room here. White-tailed eagles were mentioned frequently. Whilst I completely accept eagles are taking healthy lambs I find the numbers being quoted by farmers dubious. You would think in a world where everybody has a camera phone that there would be more evidence of eagles attacking lambs but so far I don't recall seeing any actual evidence of this whatsoever. I accept it happens but I also think the numbers suggested are possibly being wildly exaggerated and that many lambs were possibly taken as carrion - already dead due to disease or exposure. Happy to be proved wrong on that front if anyone has any useful sources which suggest otherwise. At the end of the day, the majority of the Scottish public want to see lynx returned to this country and it is being increasingly recognised that bringing them back would be a hugely significant step in addressing the biodiversity / climate crisis. I think if the farming community continues to resist this necessary and crucial ecological change it will only create resentment towards farmers from the public. It doesn't help when farmers demand guarantees that livestock won't be killed - a guarantee for such a thing is impossible and unreasonable. There is definitely room for farming and apex predators to coexist in this country and it is possible to strike some sort of fair balance. As Hugh mentioned, there is great potential for money to be made from lynx though the likes of ecotourism (much like the eagles on Mull). Perhaps there could be a way the Scottish Government could use the money generated by lynx to help protect and support farmers in coexisting alongside these animals.
absolutely agree, only thing I can add is the history of how our biodiversity got lost in the first place, which was clearance for sheep, that resulted in the biodiversity loses in not just Britain but also in the Americas, NZ & Australia to name a few along with their indigenous peoples. We didn't lose our predators due to predation on farming, the 'vermin' list that we adhere to today was created by henry the 8th, a blood thirsty and beheading people and irrational man who loves a hunt and hated moles for making his horse trip resulting in that colossal ulcer on his leg. we lose our predator to the fur trade and when we had none left we looked elsewhere for them. its a deep intrenched issue & mindset that has been occurring for the past 200-300 hundred years. Any body who studies predators can also tell you that they typically help and increase genetic diversity within their prey species by being selective on the weak and vulnerable members of the prey herds, if we include sheep in that (despite the risk being very low), it would not be the valuable healthy and breeding sheep which are taken, it would be the old and the ill and simple introduction of a livestock guardians or even traditional shepherding tactics deployed would greatly reduce that risk. The land here is barren and broken, we can't keep travelling on this trajectory, its affecting more than just farmers. Something else we should look at is may be food waste because lamb in the supermarket is expensive for very little meat and there is usually lots of it left on the shelves, so if those meat products are being wasted due to higher pricing then it also backs up the unsustainability of sheep and we should maybe be looking to persuade farmers to change their livestock. I do not agree with grace at all that we can prevent all loses, its a total nuance because that is nature, she also ignore that we ourselves are predator and keep sheep purely for our own predational needs, and sheep & game estates are holding the whole country to a monopoly.
Lynx is harmless animal in nordics.🇧🇻🇦🇽🇩🇰🇸🇪🇫🇮🇪🇪 and baltics. No threat to humans nor sheep. Lynx is a forest dweller ambushing roe deer, hares, rabbits, mouse, rats and birds. It is no threat to sheep even. Only predation of sheep happens in Norway🇧🇻 where farmers let sheep graze freely without guard in forests.🌲🌳🌲☘🍀Root cause is forest grazing..
I think I big part of reducing this conflict will include livestock farmers deploying livestock guardian dogs & going back to traditional shepherding methods. we also need to make sure there is sufficient habitat for the lynx to live and hunt within. Where we get lynx from to reintroduce will also matter as the Scandinavian lynx have behaviours where they do occasionally hunt sheep, whereas lynx from other areas such as Belarus do not.
Another point is that lynx are ambush predators, they sit and wait attacking from trees down onto prey, Norway farms graze within trees, not on open fields like we do, they are not chase predators, the likelihood of them hunting sheep successfully is minimal.
to protect the lynx themselves from poisoning, traps etc, there are detection dogs that can help with that as well.
we cannot keep ignoring our lack of biodiversity in this country & we should remember our history of how that occurred and a great deal of it occurred to house sheep over people, native cattle, woodlands and small crofts.
Scotland ranks 212th (28th worst) out of 240 countries and territories in the Biodiversity Intactness Index.
Sheep are a nuisance to me on my croft as are deer. I am concentrating on horticulture and have had to erect deer fencing to keep deer out and keep my neighbours' sheep out. Some of my sheep farming neighbours act as if their activity trumps anyone else's. Their heavy tractors used to crop grass for winter feed have compacted the soil and I am having to work hard to improve it in order to grow fruit and vegetables. The artificial fertilisers they apply leach into the river poisoning the fish. There are no hedges here and the river has little shade.
The gamekeepers and water bailifs kill otters, heron and badgers. The sheep farmers have been responsible for killing off wildcats. I have witnessed some of these sheep farmers' cruelty to their stock and their dogs. I'd rather no sheep at all were farmed here. It would improve the environment enormously
Interesting debate. Fred seems to be rather receptive to the idea of lynx reintroduction and addressing biodiversity loss whilst Grace on the other hand is clearly anti-lynx. A few points I'd like to raise:
I was glad to hear Fred say he was under no illusions when it comes to sheep impact on biodiversity in Scotland. Sheep are not a native species to Scotland, they are effectively an alien species. Grace said they have a positive impact on biodiversity - I completely disagree. If anything they have had the complete opposite effect. Alongside huge levels of deer they continue to prevent natural regeneration of habitats, our landscapes did not evolve alongside sheep. Cattle on the other hand are native and, like Fred says, can have positive impacts on biodiversity as part of agri-environmental schemes.
I think we can safely put the myth that 'lynx will negatively impact biodiversity' straight in the bin. It is well documented that the presence of lynx in an ecosystem brings positive benefits for biodiversity. It annoyed me when Grace suggested that we need to know lynx won't negatively impact what we already have when she had already been told earlier in the discussion that this was not a legitimate concern.
The question of "where does the money come from' and 'who pays for this' was raised. Sheep farming is a heavily subsidised industry in Scotland and the majority of upland sheep farming wouldn't actually be profitable if it were not for government subsidies. This for me raises the question of why should we as taxpayers be funding what would appear to be a failing industry? Personally I'd much prefer our taxes were spent on making our landscapes richer with wildlife and more resilient to climate change. If this meant giving farmers subsidies to partly rewild their land to create better habitats for waders or planting trees to help reduce the impact of flooding then I'm all for that. It could possibly mean helping those farms - which are able to turn profit without the subsidies - to safeguard themselves against lynx (stock fencing, livestock guardian dogs, etc). I think this would be a better use of public money than funding a failing business that has a negative impact on the landscape. For me, sheep farming subsidies is a bit of an elephant in the room here.
White-tailed eagles were mentioned frequently. Whilst I completely accept eagles are taking healthy lambs I find the numbers being quoted by farmers dubious. You would think in a world where everybody has a camera phone that there would be more evidence of eagles attacking lambs but so far I don't recall seeing any actual evidence of this whatsoever. I accept it happens but I also think the numbers suggested are possibly being wildly exaggerated and that many lambs were possibly taken as carrion - already dead due to disease or exposure. Happy to be proved wrong on that front if anyone has any useful sources which suggest otherwise.
At the end of the day, the majority of the Scottish public want to see lynx returned to this country and it is being increasingly recognised that bringing them back would be a hugely significant step in addressing the biodiversity / climate crisis. I think if the farming community continues to resist this necessary and crucial ecological change it will only create resentment towards farmers from the public. It doesn't help when farmers demand guarantees that livestock won't be killed - a guarantee for such a thing is impossible and unreasonable. There is definitely room for farming and apex predators to coexist in this country and it is possible to strike some sort of fair balance. As Hugh mentioned, there is great potential for money to be made from lynx though the likes of ecotourism (much like the eagles on Mull). Perhaps there could be a way the Scottish Government could use the money generated by lynx to help protect and support farmers in coexisting alongside these animals.
absolutely agree, only thing I can add is the history of how our biodiversity got lost in the first place, which was clearance for sheep, that resulted in the biodiversity loses in not just Britain but also in the Americas, NZ & Australia to name a few along with their indigenous peoples.
We didn't lose our predators due to predation on farming, the 'vermin' list that we adhere to today was created by henry the 8th, a blood thirsty and beheading people and irrational man who loves a hunt and hated moles for making his horse trip resulting in that colossal ulcer on his leg. we lose our predator to the fur trade and when we had none left we looked elsewhere for them.
its a deep intrenched issue & mindset that has been occurring for the past 200-300 hundred years. Any body who studies predators can also tell you that they typically help and increase genetic diversity within their prey species by being selective on the weak and vulnerable members of the prey herds, if we include sheep in that (despite the risk being very low), it would not be the valuable healthy and breeding sheep which are taken, it would be the old and the ill and simple introduction of a livestock guardians or even traditional shepherding tactics deployed would greatly reduce that risk. The land here is barren and broken, we can't keep travelling on this trajectory, its affecting more than just farmers.
Something else we should look at is may be food waste because lamb in the supermarket is expensive for very little meat and there is usually lots of it left on the shelves, so if those meat products are being wasted due to higher pricing then it also backs up the unsustainability of sheep and we should maybe be looking to persuade farmers to change their livestock.
I do not agree with grace at all that we can prevent all loses, its a total nuance because that is nature, she also ignore that we ourselves are predator and keep sheep purely for our own predational needs, and sheep & game estates are holding the whole country to a monopoly.
Lynx is harmless animal in nordics.🇧🇻🇦🇽🇩🇰🇸🇪🇫🇮🇪🇪 and baltics. No threat to humans nor sheep. Lynx is a forest dweller ambushing roe deer, hares, rabbits, mouse, rats and birds. It is no threat to sheep even. Only predation of sheep happens in Norway🇧🇻 where farmers let sheep graze freely without guard in forests.🌲🌳🌲☘🍀Root cause is forest grazing..