Excellent presentation. We need to develop a more authentic origins account. There is no question that young earth creationism cannot be true. However, we don't necessarily need to adopt Darwinian evolution either, which seems to be fundamentally flawed from a scientific perspective (in my opinion). There may be another explanation.....this is definitely a starting point.
Just bought "The Lost World Of Adam And Eve". The recording of this lecture was a good setup for me to start to better understand the propositions found in the book.
He said forming human spirit is forming identity. Sounds like 21st century thinking, not in the ancient. They spoke about the spirit as an actual thing people have, and that it departs to a different location, not simply a metaphorical identity. I know he's trying to think in the ancient mindset, but this goes to show how easy it is to read modern ideas into it.
I'm open to following the evidence where it leads and i appreciate the years of effort it's taken to uncover a lot of truth, however, i can't help but feel that John is trying to marry evolution and genesis here, i don't understand the need to add more people living at the time of Adam and Eve when it says that Eve was 'the mother of all the living', i would love an answer to that question
First of all, the evidence for a very old earth is overwhelming. Secondly, the evidence for a literal young earth is non-existent, regardless of the attempts by yec advocates to show otherwise. The scenario for a literal flood is not plausible without unbelievable heat (i.e. many H-bomb per square mile equivalency) making another "interpretation" and understanding necessary. That, plus, such things as finely sorted out layers which a world-wide tsunami could never do, helps us to realize that our interpretation of the creation account and early Genesis cannot be correct. Thirdly, the evidence for an extremely old universe, pushes the "beginning" way farther back than a 6000-year proposition put forth be so many. Facing facts and reality requires us to present a more realistic understanding of what God is revealing in His Word. It may not be about the actual creation of matter, but how He brought it into a functioning and livable situation for mankind. It may not be about the creation of the physical earth and universe, as such, but a function world system, something like what Dr. Walton suggests.
There are things God put in the Bible that were not understood by those at the time but were meant for others to understand. And if there is at least one place like this then there can be others. Specifically Daniel was given a long detailed vision. At the end Daniel says, “although I heard I did not understand.” And when he asked for the understanding of the vision he was told that it was not meant for him but for those at a future time, living in the end of days.
But the scripture in that case states that. That doesn't mean that we can assume that there is hidden meaning in any other text we choose. The scripture has to tell us that we can't just impose that on a specific text because we want to see something that isn't there.
@@DeltaDawn77 actually the scripture doesn’t have to specifically tell us. There are examples where the scripture specifically tells us. There are also OT scriptures that doesn’t get revealed as being future till after the resurrection of Jesus. There is hidden meaning all throughout the text of scripture. The scriptures in the NT even tells us that God’s plan was hidden in the scriptures. You are right, some try to see things that aren’t there….but you don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. That is we’re study and discernment comes in.
@onehappydawg the OT truth about Jesus gets confirmation in the NT, which is scripture. My point stands. You and I an no one else out side the biblical writers get to claim new revelation from scripture accept what is clear. Projecting your system or tradition onto the text is not hidden meaning, it is a mishandling of scripture. If everyone can just claim hidden meaning on the scripture without clarity from the biblical writers then what is to stop anyone from making stuff up, which unfortunately happens. So if someone can't leave us a bread trail as to the methodology they used to come to their conclusion and evidence that this is what the NT or OT writer intended then they should not be teaching scripture. This is why I appreciate Scholars who give you the evidence and tell you to research it and see for yourself, rather than preachers who just assert claims without any evidence of effort to show you how they arrived there. This is a problem in a lot of systems and traditions of the church.
@onehappydawg also, the most difficult thing about discernment is being able to consider that just because someone brings a challenge to my view that makes me uncomfortable, does not automatically mean THEY are wrong. Seeing your own blind spots and bias is crucial for discernment.
Paul already said Adam was the first man: 1 Corinthians 15:22 The first man, Adam, become a living soul.. Paul add "first" to Genesis 2 , Paul called Adam the first man. ------------------ If there are populations of people before Genesis 2 then 1 Corinthians 11:8 is wrong [8] For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; [9] for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. (This reference Genesis 2) He says the same thing in 1 Timothy 2:13, which gives clarity as to who these man and women were (same context about authority): 1 Timothy 2:13 NASB1995 [13] For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. (Genesis 2) Then you have Romans 5:14 Death reigned from Adam to Moses, why even mention Adam here? He should have at least addressed these verses to show that his view was correct but the fact that Paul said Adam is the first man, seals it for me.
Dr John Walton The reason why we could not live forever because god said you must not reach out from the tree of LIFE and live forever NOT Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge good and evil. 🙏 Amen The Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he placed the man he had formed. ' The Lord God caused to grow out of the ground every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the tree of life in the middle of the garden, as well as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Lord God made clothing from skins for the man and his wife, and he clothed them. 2 The Lord God said, "Since the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever. 23 So the Lord God sent him away from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove the man out and stationed the cherubim and the flaming, whirling sword east of the garden of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life. Amen 🙏
Adam was certainty not 1st man. Scripture means what it says & says what it means. So when Jesus said from the beginning of the creation God made them male & female’ also.. ‘he which made them at the beginning made them male & female’.. Gen1:1 Mk10:6 Matt19:4 Mk13:19 Heb1:10 This act which Jesus referred was: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male & female created he them & God blessed them’, & God said to them, “Be fruitful, & multiply, & Replenish the EARTH, & subdue it: & have dominion over the fish of the sea, & over the fowl of the air, & over every living thing that moves upon the EARTH & God said, Behold, I have given you EVERY. ( Yes here it says every read all inclusive ) herb yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, & EVERY tree, ( Yes here it says every read all inclusive) In the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food.” Gen1:27-29 But when God made Adam & placed him in GARDEN God was very specific ; And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. & the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. & out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, & every fowl of the air; & brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: & whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. Gen2:16-19 Adam was specifically told v2:17 not eat of Tree knowledge of good & evil. Gen1 & Gen2 are separate accounts. Time betwixt these 2events remains unspecified.. A GREAT error comes when one equates Gen1&Gen2 for they are very different events Jesus was clear, For He did not say from time of Garden He made Adam & Eve. But rather Jesus said: from the beginning of the creation God made them male & female’ also.. ‘he which made them at the "beginning" made them male & female Not Adam & Eve, not from dust, not from the time of garden. Jesus meant what was said & said what he meant, Adam, Eve,& garden were not in the creation... scripture means what is said and says what it means Man in Gen1 was made From nothing Ex-Nehlio... Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Yet Adam in Gen2 was formed from dust of ground & Eve was formed from Adam's rib... thus Adam & Eve of Gen2 are not made Ex-nehlio, from nothing, as were the man & woman in the beginning. Man & Woman of Gen1 were given dominion over all earth that was watered by a mist neither did Gen1 have dietary restriction as given Adam & Eve in a garden watered by 4 rivers. Gen1 & Gen2 are completely different events, scripture does not err. Jesus drew a line into the sands of time at Luke 16:16 The law & the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, & every man presseth into it. There were 4kYrs of sin prior to John. "Behold the Lamb slain from foundation of this world." When was this present sinful world founded? but in the day of ADAM'S sin. For then Adam&Eve were clothed in skin of slain lamb & a redeemer promised. there remain 3k years from Jesus death.. John 2:19 Jesus answered & said unto them, Destroy this temple, & in three days I will raise it up. The final event is specified. Rev21:22-23 & I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty & the Lamb are the temple of it. & the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, & the Lamb is the light thereof. Time between Gen1&Gen2 is Unspecified but finite. To equate Gen1&Gen2 as same events leads to great confusion There are many many facts to prove earth age is in excess of 6000Y BP, wiki article earth age completly refutes young earth psudoscience... and wiki cites just the most blatant proofs, there are others
1 Corinthians 1:21 KJVS For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Authorized King James Bible 1611. God’s final authority for the English speaking people.
My God promised He would preserve His pure words forever, ie not one of them would be lost but be kept by His own power throughout every generation that followed king David. “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.” Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” Ps. 12:6,7 If that were not enough to convince you simply lay all of the new bibles beside the King James Bible 1611 and compare verse by verse salient passages on the deity of Jesus Christ, His sin atoning blood, and His ability to keep His people saved by His grace without any good works on the believer’s part. Compare 1Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh” vs “he” “who” was made known Colossians 1:14 the blood is omitted in many new versions 1Corinthians 1:18 “are saved” vs “being saved” I could go on with this all day with over 5,000 changes in the Bible’s since the RV 1881. Since God promised that He would keep His pure words throughout every generation, one word change destroys what He said, and the preservation of the text. Ever since Genesis 3:1 when satan started his attack on God’s words with the first question in the Bible, “Yea, hath God said,” he has relentlessly put doubt in the mind of unsuspecting people like Eve. If I couldn’t trust the LORD that is powerful enough to create all things, and even make a new creature out of me to do what He said He would do in Psalm 12:6,7, I would be trusting in men’s scholarship instead of His ability to perform what He said. Numbers 23:19 So, compare God’s words with all of the perversions and see if you can come back and say you cannot see the serpent’s hands on God’s Word. Remember, “Yea, hath God said.”
Kings James was a great translation for the time! But still, God's word is preserved in Hebrew and Greek. It's a good thing to continue to translate God's perfect word into English.
Text Text Text The bottom line is which text. There are two main lines of Biblical text that have produced all bibles: the Roman Sinaiaticus Vaticanus which all catholic bibles from the Revised Version 1881 all the way through 200+ catholic bibles, and the Byzantine type Received Textus Receptus from Antioch Syria whereby the Bible of the Protestant Reformation was produced, the Authorized King James Bible 1611. All one has to do is examine the fruit of the two lines, compare the “Christians” they produce and if you so desire the truth with a teachable spirit you will come to the logical conclusion that God wrote only one book that was preserved perfectly for the English speaking people. Ps 12:6,7
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Thank you for sharing this recording.
Great presentation!
Excellent presentation. We need to develop a more authentic origins account. There is no question that young earth creationism cannot be true. However, we don't necessarily need to adopt Darwinian evolution either, which seems to be fundamentally flawed from a scientific perspective (in my opinion). There may be another explanation.....this is definitely a starting point.
Well done!
Just bought "The Lost World Of Adam And Eve". The recording of this lecture was a good setup for me to start to better understand the propositions found in the book.
He said forming human spirit is forming identity. Sounds like 21st century thinking, not in the ancient. They spoke about the spirit as an actual thing people have, and that it departs to a different location, not simply a metaphorical identity. I know he's trying to think in the ancient mindset, but this goes to show how easy it is to read modern ideas into it.
No he’s right, God giving breath wasn’t just so man could breath, but to give him purpose identity. Very good Walton
I'm open to following the evidence where it leads and i appreciate the years of effort it's taken to uncover a lot of truth, however, i can't help but feel that John is trying to marry evolution and genesis here, i don't understand the need to add more people living at the time of Adam and Eve when it says that Eve was 'the mother of all the living', i would love an answer to that question
First of all, the evidence for a very old earth is overwhelming. Secondly, the evidence for a literal young earth is non-existent, regardless of the attempts by yec advocates to show otherwise. The scenario for a literal flood is not plausible without unbelievable heat (i.e. many H-bomb per square mile equivalency) making another "interpretation" and understanding necessary. That, plus, such things as finely sorted out layers which a world-wide tsunami could never do, helps us to realize that our interpretation of the creation account and early Genesis cannot be correct. Thirdly, the evidence for an extremely old universe, pushes the "beginning" way farther back than a 6000-year proposition put forth be so many. Facing facts and reality requires us to present a more realistic understanding of what God is revealing in His Word. It may not be about the actual creation of matter, but how He brought it into a functioning and livable situation for mankind. It may not be about the creation of the physical earth and universe, as such, but a function world system, something like what Dr. Walton suggests.
Careful not to conflate material life and spiritual life.
There are things God put in the Bible that were not understood by those at the time but were meant for others to understand.
And if there is at least one place like this then there can be others.
Specifically Daniel was given a long detailed vision. At the end Daniel says, “although I heard I did not understand.”
And when he asked for the understanding of the vision he was told that it was not meant for him but for those at a future time, living in the end of days.
But the scripture in that case states that. That doesn't mean that we can assume that there is hidden meaning in any other text we choose. The scripture has to tell us that we can't just impose that on a specific text because we want to see something that isn't there.
@@DeltaDawn77 actually the scripture doesn’t have to specifically tell us.
There are examples where the scripture specifically tells us.
There are also OT scriptures that doesn’t get revealed as being future till after the resurrection of Jesus.
There is hidden meaning all throughout the text of scripture. The scriptures in the NT even tells us that God’s plan was hidden in the scriptures.
You are right, some try to see things that aren’t there….but you don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.
That is we’re study and discernment comes in.
@onehappydawg the OT truth about Jesus gets confirmation in the NT, which is scripture. My point stands. You and I an no one else out side the biblical writers get to claim new revelation from scripture accept what is clear. Projecting your system or tradition onto the text is not hidden meaning, it is a mishandling of scripture. If everyone can just claim hidden meaning on the scripture without clarity from the biblical writers then what is to stop anyone from making stuff up, which unfortunately happens. So if someone can't leave us a bread trail as to the methodology they used to come to their conclusion and evidence that this is what the NT or OT writer intended then they should not be teaching scripture. This is why I appreciate Scholars who give you the evidence and tell you to research it and see for yourself, rather than preachers who just assert claims without any evidence of effort to show you how they arrived there. This is a problem in a lot of systems and traditions of the church.
@onehappydawg also, the most difficult thing about discernment is being able to consider that just because someone brings a challenge to my view that makes me uncomfortable, does not automatically mean THEY are wrong. Seeing your own blind spots and bias is crucial for discernment.
37 minutes in and he's still saying "Cultural river, cultural river",. Foes he ever get to his subject?
Paul already said Adam was the first man:
1 Corinthians 15:22
The first man, Adam, become a living soul..
Paul add "first" to Genesis 2 , Paul called Adam the first man.
------------------
If there are populations of people before Genesis 2 then 1 Corinthians 11:8 is wrong
[8] For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; [9] for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. (This reference Genesis 2)
He says the same thing in 1 Timothy 2:13, which gives clarity as to who these man and women were (same context about authority):
1 Timothy 2:13 NASB1995
[13] For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. (Genesis 2)
Then you have
Romans 5:14 Death reigned from Adam to Moses, why even mention Adam here?
He should have at least addressed these verses to show that his view was correct but the fact that Paul said Adam is the first man, seals it for me.
Or perhaps Adam was the first imager of God
@Lenin95 where do you get that? please quote the verse.
Dr John Walton
The reason why we could not live forever because god said you must not reach out from the tree of LIFE and live forever NOT Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge good and evil.
🙏 Amen
The Lord God planted a garden in
Eden, in the east, and there he
placed the man he had formed. ' The Lord God caused to grow out of the ground every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the tree of life in the middle of the garden,
as well as the tree of
the knowledge of good and evil.
The Lord God made clothing from skins for the man and his wife, and he clothed them.
2 The Lord God said, "Since the man has become like one of us, knowing
good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever.
23 So the Lord God sent him
away from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.
24 He drove the man out and stationed
the cherubim and the flaming, whirling sword east of the garden of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life.
Amen 🙏
Adam was certainty not 1st man. Scripture means what it says & says what it means. So when Jesus said from the beginning of the creation God made them male & female’ also.. ‘he which made them at the beginning made them male & female’.. Gen1:1 Mk10:6 Matt19:4 Mk13:19 Heb1:10
This act which Jesus referred was:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male & female created he them & God blessed them’, & God said to them, “Be fruitful, & multiply, & Replenish the EARTH, & subdue it: & have dominion over the fish of the sea, & over the fowl of the air, & over every living thing that moves upon the EARTH & God said, Behold, I have given you
EVERY. ( Yes here it says every read all inclusive )
herb yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, &
EVERY tree, ( Yes here it says every read all inclusive)
In the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food.” Gen1:27-29
But when God made Adam & placed him in GARDEN God was very specific ;
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. & the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. & out of the ground
the Lord God formed every beast of the field, & every fowl of the air; & brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: & whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. Gen2:16-19
Adam was specifically told v2:17 not eat of Tree knowledge of good & evil.
Gen1 & Gen2 are separate accounts. Time betwixt these 2events remains unspecified.. A GREAT error comes when one equates Gen1&Gen2 for they are very different events
Jesus was clear, For He did not say from time of Garden He made Adam & Eve. But rather Jesus said:
from the beginning of the creation God made them male & female’ also.. ‘he which made them at the "beginning" made them male & female
Not Adam & Eve, not from dust, not from the time of garden. Jesus meant what was said & said what he meant, Adam, Eve,& garden were not in the creation... scripture means what is said and says what it means
Man in Gen1 was made From nothing Ex-Nehlio... Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Yet Adam in Gen2 was formed from dust of ground & Eve was formed from Adam's rib... thus Adam & Eve of Gen2 are not made Ex-nehlio, from nothing, as were the man & woman in the beginning. Man & Woman of Gen1 were given dominion over all earth that was watered by a mist neither did Gen1 have dietary restriction as given Adam & Eve in a garden watered by 4 rivers. Gen1 & Gen2 are completely different events, scripture does not err.
Jesus drew a line into the sands of time at Luke 16:16 The law & the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, & every man presseth into it.
There were 4kYrs of sin prior to John. "Behold the Lamb slain from foundation of this world." When was this present sinful world founded? but in the day of ADAM'S sin. For then Adam&Eve were clothed in skin of slain lamb & a redeemer promised. there remain 3k years from Jesus death.. John 2:19 Jesus answered & said unto them, Destroy this temple, & in three days I will raise it up. The final event is specified. Rev21:22-23 & I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty & the Lamb are the temple of it. & the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, & the Lamb is the light thereof.
Time between Gen1&Gen2 is Unspecified but finite. To equate Gen1&Gen2 as same events leads to great confusion There are many many facts to prove earth age is in excess of 6000Y BP, wiki article earth age completly refutes young earth psudoscience... and wiki cites just the most blatant proofs, there are others
So, do you think Dr. Walton is giving us a postmodernist reading of scripture?
1 Corinthians 1:21 KJVS
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Authorized King James Bible 1611. God’s final authority for the English speaking people.
How could you possibly know that the King James translation is Gods final authority for English speaking people.
My God promised He would preserve His pure words forever, ie not one of them would be lost but be kept by His own power throughout every generation that followed king David.
“The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.”
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” Ps. 12:6,7
If that were not enough to convince you simply lay all of the new bibles beside the King James Bible 1611 and compare verse by verse salient passages on the deity of Jesus Christ, His sin atoning blood, and His ability to keep His people saved by His grace without any good works on the believer’s part. Compare 1Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh” vs “he” “who” was made known
Colossians 1:14 the blood is omitted in many new versions
1Corinthians 1:18 “are saved” vs “being saved”
I could go on with this all day with over 5,000 changes in the Bible’s since the RV 1881. Since God promised that He would keep His pure words throughout every generation, one word change destroys what He said, and the preservation of the text.
Ever since Genesis 3:1 when satan started his attack on God’s words with the first question in the Bible, “Yea, hath God said,” he has relentlessly put doubt in the mind of unsuspecting people like Eve.
If I couldn’t trust the LORD that is powerful enough to create all things, and even make a new creature out of me to do what He said He would do in Psalm 12:6,7, I would be trusting in men’s scholarship instead of His ability to perform what He said.
Numbers 23:19
So, compare God’s words with all of the perversions and see if you can come back and say you cannot see the serpent’s hands on God’s Word. Remember, “Yea, hath God said.”
Kings James was a great translation for the time!
But still, God's word is preserved in Hebrew and Greek. It's a good thing to continue to translate God's perfect word into English.
Text Text Text
The bottom line is which text. There are two main lines of Biblical text that have produced all bibles: the Roman Sinaiaticus Vaticanus which all catholic bibles from the Revised Version 1881 all the way through 200+ catholic bibles, and the Byzantine type Received Textus Receptus from Antioch Syria whereby the Bible of the Protestant Reformation was produced, the Authorized King James Bible 1611.
All one has to do is examine the fruit of the two lines, compare the “Christians” they produce and if you so desire the truth with a teachable spirit you will come to the logical conclusion that God wrote only one book that was preserved perfectly for the English speaking people.
Ps 12:6,7
Were does the Hebrew Bible and the Septuagint come into play?
@@YHWHkingdomwisdomyou can’t argue with KJV only people. They don’t understand how the Bible was actually produced.