In this episode, we discuss: 00:00:00 - intro 00:00:10 - Bob’s unlikely path to medicine and his disappointment with his medical school experience 00:12:30 - Rethinking the approach to cancer: using first principles and applying mathematical models 00:29:27 - Relating predator prey-models to cancer 00:37:50 - Insights into cancer gathered from ecological models of pests and pesticides 00:47:27 - Bob’s pilot clinical trial: the advantages of adaptive therapy compared to standard prostate cancer treatment 00:55:25 - New avenues of cancer therapy: utilizing drug-sensitive cancer cells to control drug-resistant cancer cells 01:03:29 - The vulnerability of small populations of cancer cells and the problem with a “single strike” treatment approach 01:14:30 - Using a sequence of therapies to make cancer cells more susceptible to targeted treatment 01:25:56 - How immunotherapy fits into the cancer treatment toolkit 01:31:25 - Insights into why cancer spreads, where it metastasizes, and the source-sync trade off of cancer 01:42:45 - Defining Eco- and Evo-indices and how they can be used to make better clinical decisions 01:55:24 - Advantages of early screening for cancer 01:58:36 - Bob’s goals for follow-ups after the success of his prostate cancer trial 02:09:22 - Treatment options for cancer patients who have been told they have “failed therapy”
My father survuved glioblastoma for 34.5 months from diagnosis. We buried him today. The silver lining is that he lived for so long. We used multiple adjunct therapies and implemented some of Thomas Seyfried's metobolic therapy ideas and some Ayurvedic spices including curcumin and bacoba minori, and also Avastin. We did not do chemo and radiation, but we did do proton therapy on month 25. The current medical/ cancer establishment is moving slower than a snail when it comes to progress, while people are suffering. Something has to be done.
I'm Sorry for your loss, of course. I'll follow up on those tips, thanks. My wife's has solid tumor breast cancer. Her medical oncologist and radiation oncologist deny the Warburg effect, have brochures for Enfamil or dishes of chocolate candies everywhere. They have no idea what certain supplements are, sulforaphane from broccoli sprouts, berberine, DIM, NAC ... yet they insisted she stop them. This despite the tumor shrinking 9.2% in 2 weeks instead of growing. It grew after stopping all protocols. Now the medical oncologist cites the WHI study as nutritionally valid even though it free-living & self-reporting association. She thought 32% fat was ketogenic. Either she was BS'ing or doesn't understand that correlation is not causation and that the WHI nutritional data is little more than noise. It was like a gut punch and I just shut up...
This brainstorming about cancer and its possible treatments is awesome. Listening to Dr. Peter Attia's views on health concerns over the past seven years has been key to my health even today. His ability to make me think through health and treatment concerns as he has done in this video is just one example. We need more thinkers like these two doctors vs med school trained human robots and medicine is thankfully is moving in that direction. At the age of 70 I am hopeful of the future. Changes since earning my OD degree in 1986 are huge. The four year old asking why, why and way needs to never be lost in life because we NEVER know everything.
Agree totally Gale. Earning your OD midway through life tells me you're a lifelong learner too. People like Dr Attia are my refuge from a medical industrial complex that jerks me out of a life of gratitude and off the serotonin wave I like to ride. My wife has cancer and it's shocking how little the experts know, that or they're BS'ing us. In the case of cancer, orthodoxy and group-think can kill IMHO.
Isn't the therapeutic ketogenic press/pulse cancer treatment strategy a variant of the evolutionary strategy? Hopefully, those few who have dedicated their careers to this area will live to see the wider appreciation of their efforts.
Very interesting podcast, covered a lot of ground. I was sorry that you did not touch on any possible benefit (or not) of restricting high glucose levels during treatment, since most cancers thrive on glucose for energy production. I believe that a keto diet is being used by several oncologists as an adjuvant to reduce the severity of side effects of chemotherapy.
I am a patient using low carb nutrition, exercise and infrared sauna as adjuncts to my standard of care treatments for metastatic breast cancer. I am working on the theory that the more metabolic pathways I can return to a more normal state will increase my longevity and quality of life. I can report that I do not have the common side effects from the treatments that most women have and the disease burden in my body has reduced such that there is current no evidence of active disease.
Thank you for another thought provoking conversation. What I appreciated about this dialogue was the more general view of cancer. I think we often get too close to the trees to see the forest. I also wanted to bring up formation of Biofilm as an example of a "group network effect". The critical mass of bacteria formed within the structure of the Biofilm need to be fragmented for the treatment to be effective.
I love stories of great minds bumping into an elegant solution to a long-standing problem. A legendary math problem's solution occurring to a mathematician as he crossed the street in New York. It seems so simple until I think about all the hours of hard work compounding in their minds over time. Bob Gatenby reading an internet article on the Diamondback Moth seems like serendipity. Anyway, I figure Peter should be gifted with one of these breakthroughs given his brain type.
Listening to this made me think about the Jane McClelland "How to Starve Cancer" approach. This is an approach that recognizes that cancer spread is fundamentally a metabolic disease, and that there is no one silver bullet. Her approach relies on identifying a set of substances that target multiple weakenesses of the cancer cell -- the same kind of multi-pronged approach that Gatenby is talking about. The Starve Cancer protocols are customized to the type of cancer. Would love to see Peter Attia interview Jane McClelland.
Funny how when speaking to Tom Seyfried Peter was (and I was as well) worried he was scaremongering with regards to cancer biopsies, yet now we're entertaining the notion that maybe Tom was right all along
Yes, and sadly... Atkins never got to see keto becoming mainstream (except for in the medical community). Peter disagrees with Seyfried which is why I'm hesitant. I like him to lay out the problems he sees.
Dr Fong explained that cancer cells spread before establishing tumors and their source is the most amenable environment and they mutate there. So now when they go out again they defeat minimum firewalls. I would theorize that prostate ca- cells defeat bone tissue firewalls and invade
I'm listening to Dr Fung's book and love it. I think he said that they mutate, then try to metastasize but almost all fail to survive and grow. That makes me think that chemo might always be required to eliminate the one that does start and has already defeated the immune system in its mutagenesis stage. ?
I love Dr Colin Campbells book "whole" and understanding how nutrition can prevent cancer despite the reductionist approach to looking at carcinogenic effects of just about everything that we are surrounded by. It's an incredibly good read.
I think it's a mistake to assume that everyone approaches questions/equations in a linear fashion. I have always been criticized for speaking in non sequiturs, even as a child. I didn't realize that the connections I made with ideas, objects, etc were not readily apparent. I am quite sure others function in this way. Btw, mutations are never random, we simply cannot identify causation.
"mutations are never random, we simply cannot identify causation". Interesting. Is there evidence of that? It seems kind of absolute. For example, viruses are not considered 'alive' because they need a living host, yet they mutate and there's competitive selection.
Malcolm Gladwell has stated that early prostate cancer diagnosis is not in fact helpful. I am not implying he is right, but perhaps needs to be reached out to to correct the record?
I didn't catch for the thing that went extinct on Martha's Island. I believe he said Heath Hen. I thought he said Ethan. Didn't make sense. The Heath Hen went extinct on Martha's Island in 1932. Am I right? Thanks for the discussion. Fascinating. Will help with my understanding on my cancer treatment.
Hey Peter! Love the podcasts! Not sure how to suggest a guest but this may be the best medium to do so. Have you been able to link up with the one and only Jordan Peterson! Yes....he is technically a doctor.
Almost all the lowering of Cancers is has been driven by lowering tobacco use the data looking at tobacco taxes etc etc... Show almost all the cancer reductions has been lower smoking easy to look at Geo US + Intel. Europe data just double taxes on Tobacoo and bring health benefits look at Data from NY, Ca, Missispia etc Ps tax the Fu out of junk food as well... Lot of the math he discusses apply to D1 and D2 T1 etc. There are Docs now who have degrees in Math and Stats
@@doctork1708 yes he is not a physican plus he takes great pride in his new born Christnity over Science plus Jordan should post how he makes his money and how much! peter should do the same it's more than subscrpation
Maybe that's the prime reason for the backlash. I'm shocked that oncologists I've spoke with deny the Warburg Effect and that insulin is also a powerful growth hormone for my wife's solid breast tumor. They have bowls of chocolate candy on their check-in counter, patient counter, and at the MRI injection chair.
![[ TEASER ] เงาะป่า - วงL.กฮ. | TMG RECORD](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/M4ObdFfcPww/mqdefault.jpg)
In this episode, we discuss:
00:00:00 - intro
00:00:10 - Bob’s unlikely path to medicine and his disappointment with his medical school experience
00:12:30 - Rethinking the approach to cancer: using first principles and applying mathematical models
00:29:27 - Relating predator prey-models to cancer
00:37:50 - Insights into cancer gathered from ecological models of pests and pesticides
00:47:27 - Bob’s pilot clinical trial: the advantages of adaptive therapy compared to standard prostate cancer treatment
00:55:25 - New avenues of cancer therapy: utilizing drug-sensitive cancer cells to control drug-resistant cancer cells
01:03:29 - The vulnerability of small populations of cancer cells and the problem with a “single strike” treatment approach
01:14:30 - Using a sequence of therapies to make cancer cells more susceptible to targeted treatment
01:25:56 - How immunotherapy fits into the cancer treatment toolkit
01:31:25 - Insights into why cancer spreads, where it metastasizes, and the source-sync trade off of cancer
01:42:45 - Defining Eco- and Evo-indices and how they can be used to make better clinical decisions
01:55:24 - Advantages of early screening for cancer
01:58:36 - Bob’s goals for follow-ups after the success of his prostate cancer trial
02:09:22 - Treatment options for cancer patients who have been told they have “failed therapy”
This is the same argument of the Covid vaccine, that is, selective pressure. Time will be our answer.
Gratitude is a way of life for me and I want to give up some to Dr Attia for his healing ways. What a gift.
My father survuved glioblastoma for 34.5 months from diagnosis. We buried him today. The silver lining is that he lived for so long. We used multiple adjunct therapies and implemented some of Thomas Seyfried's metobolic therapy ideas and some Ayurvedic spices including curcumin and bacoba minori, and also Avastin. We did not do chemo and radiation, but we did do proton therapy on month 25. The current medical/ cancer establishment is moving slower than a snail when it comes to progress, while people are suffering. Something has to be done.
I'm Sorry for your loss, of course. I'll follow up on those tips, thanks. My wife's has solid tumor breast cancer. Her medical oncologist and radiation oncologist deny the Warburg effect, have brochures for Enfamil or dishes of chocolate candies everywhere.
They have no idea what certain supplements are, sulforaphane from broccoli sprouts, berberine, DIM, NAC ... yet they insisted she stop them. This despite the tumor shrinking 9.2% in 2 weeks instead of growing. It grew after stopping all protocols.
Now the medical oncologist cites the WHI study as nutritionally valid even though it free-living & self-reporting association. She thought 32% fat was ketogenic. Either she was BS'ing or doesn't understand that correlation is not causation and that the WHI nutritional data is little more than noise. It was like a gut punch and I just shut up...
This brainstorming about cancer and its possible treatments is awesome. Listening to Dr. Peter Attia's views on health concerns over the past seven years has been key to my health even today. His ability to make me think through health and treatment concerns as he has done in this video is just one example. We need more thinkers like these two doctors vs med school trained human robots and medicine is thankfully is moving in that direction. At the age of 70 I am hopeful of the future. Changes since earning my OD degree in 1986 are huge. The four year old asking why, why and way needs to never be lost in life because we NEVER know everything.
Agree totally Gale. Earning your OD midway through life tells me you're a lifelong learner too. People like Dr Attia are my refuge from a medical industrial complex that jerks me out of a life of gratitude and off the serotonin wave I like to ride. My wife has cancer and it's shocking how little the experts know, that or they're BS'ing us. In the case of cancer, orthodoxy and group-think can kill IMHO.
Isn't the therapeutic ketogenic press/pulse cancer treatment strategy a variant of the evolutionary strategy? Hopefully, those few who have dedicated their careers to this area will live to see the wider appreciation of their efforts.
Very interesting podcast, covered a lot of ground. I was sorry that you did not touch on any possible benefit (or not) of restricting high glucose levels during treatment, since most cancers thrive on glucose for energy production. I believe that a keto diet is being used by several oncologists as an adjuvant to reduce the severity of side effects of chemotherapy.
I am a patient using low carb nutrition, exercise and infrared sauna as adjuncts to my standard of care treatments for metastatic breast cancer. I am working on the theory that the more metabolic pathways I can return to a more normal state will increase my longevity and quality of life. I can report that I do not have the common side effects from the treatments that most women have and the disease burden in my body has reduced such that there is current no evidence of active disease.
@@debwellmes551 Thanks for the info. Glad to hear that.
@@debwellmes551 wish you excellent wellness
@@debwellmes551 Good to hear. Wish you well.
@@debwellmes551 consider adding curcumin supplement to your regiment, we used curcumin elite by life extension for my father.
Thank you for another thought provoking conversation. What I appreciated about this dialogue was the more general view of cancer. I think we often get too close to the trees to see the forest. I also wanted to bring up formation of Biofilm as an example of a "group network effect". The critical mass of bacteria formed within the structure of the Biofilm need to be fragmented for the treatment to be effective.
I love stories of great minds bumping into an elegant solution to a long-standing problem. A legendary math problem's solution occurring to a mathematician as he crossed the street in New York. It seems so simple until I think about all the hours of hard work compounding in their minds over time. Bob Gatenby reading an internet article on the Diamondback Moth seems like serendipity. Anyway, I figure Peter should be gifted with one of these breakthroughs given his brain type.
Listening to this made me think about the Jane McClelland "How to Starve Cancer" approach. This is an approach that recognizes that cancer spread is fundamentally a metabolic disease, and that there is no one silver bullet. Her approach relies on identifying a set of substances that target multiple weakenesses of the cancer cell -- the same kind of multi-pronged approach that Gatenby is talking about. The Starve Cancer protocols are customized to the type of cancer. Would love to see Peter Attia interview Jane McClelland.
I found this to be a little bit discouraging. I also wish Peter would have brought up Dr. Seyfried's hypothesis as well for Bob's viewpoint.
Funny how when speaking to Tom Seyfried Peter was (and I was as well) worried he was scaremongering with regards to cancer biopsies, yet now we're entertaining the notion that maybe Tom was right all along
Yes, and sadly... Atkins never got to see keto becoming mainstream (except for in the medical community).
Peter disagrees with Seyfried which is why I'm hesitant. I like him to lay out the problems he sees.
Insightful. Thank you.
Dr Fong explained that cancer cells spread before establishing tumors and their source is the most amenable environment and they mutate there. So now when they go out again they defeat minimum firewalls. I would theorize that prostate ca- cells defeat bone tissue firewalls and invade
I'm listening to Dr Fung's book and love it. I think he said that they mutate, then try to metastasize but almost all fail to survive and grow. That makes me think that chemo might always be required to eliminate the one that does start and has already defeated the immune system in its mutagenesis stage. ?
Amazing interview.. Million thanks Peter..
I love Dr Colin Campbells book "whole" and understanding how nutrition can prevent cancer despite the reductionist approach to looking at carcinogenic effects of just about everything that we are surrounded by. It's an incredibly good read.
Outstanding as always!
Great podcast. Super interesting episode.
Cytotoxic chemotherapy this adaptive strategy makes sense..but how about immunotherapies like CART therapy....?
I think it's a mistake to assume that everyone approaches questions/equations in a linear fashion.
I have always been criticized for speaking in non sequiturs, even as a child. I didn't realize that the connections I made with ideas, objects, etc were not readily apparent.
I am quite sure others function in this way.
Btw, mutations are never random, we simply cannot identify causation.
"mutations are never random, we simply cannot identify causation". Interesting. Is there evidence of that? It seems kind of absolute. For example, viruses are not considered 'alive' because they need a living host, yet they mutate and there's competitive selection.
Malcolm Gladwell has stated that early prostate cancer diagnosis is not in fact helpful. I am not implying he is right, but perhaps needs to be reached out to to correct the record?
Wow. Great podcast.
Super cool and super fascinating
I think the answer to what's linear in the world and is so important in our evolution is fear.
Really a good podcast 👍
I didn't catch for the thing that went extinct on Martha's Island. I believe he said Heath Hen.
I thought he said Ethan. Didn't make sense. The Heath Hen went extinct on Martha's Island in 1932. Am I right? Thanks for the discussion. Fascinating. Will help with my understanding on my cancer treatment.
Thanks for the info. I played it back a few times and couldn't pick up the name.
This one is really good!
The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins is an excellent book for understanding "evolutionary logic".
So interesting, thank you
My direct question would be ,Do mammograms cause cancer ?
Hey Peter! Love the podcasts! Not sure how to suggest a guest but this may be the best medium to do so. Have you been able to link up with the one and only Jordan Peterson! Yes....he is technically a doctor.
Almost all the lowering of Cancers is has been driven by lowering tobacco use the data looking at tobacco taxes etc etc... Show almost all the cancer reductions has been lower smoking easy to look at Geo US + Intel. Europe data just double taxes on Tobacoo and bring health benefits look at Data from NY, Ca, Missispia etc
Ps tax the Fu out of junk food as well...
Lot of the math he discusses apply to D1 and D2 T1 etc. There are Docs now who have degrees in Math and Stats
He IS a doctor, but not a physician. He IS also a misogynistic jerk.
@@doctork1708 yes he is not a physican plus he takes great pride in his new born Christnity over Science plus Jordan should post how he makes his money and how much! peter should do the same it's more than subscrpation
great podcast.
Nothing made stuff and that stuff made life. That's evo
Please interview EOWilson
Gotta love the notion that med school is the easier way out ... ;-)
If Professor Thomas Seyfried is right, will that make a lot of people look awful stupid.
Maybe that's the prime reason for the backlash. I'm shocked that oncologists I've spoke with deny the Warburg Effect and that insulin is also a powerful growth hormone for my wife's solid breast tumor. They have bowls of chocolate candy on their check-in counter, patient counter, and at the MRI injection chair.