It doesn't say anything of value. That's like saying "it welcomes child rapists, but hey, we don't like where they've been!". He's just trying to skate around being anti-gay, and thus his opinions should be tossed into the trash bin of hate.
@@hongotedesco8931 Actually, the whole child rapist thing is EXACTLY his point. Even a child rapist could come into the kingdom of God. But he or she would have to repent, serve time in jail, etc. The gospel certainly doesn't like where child rapists have been. And so, friend...I am not understanding your point?
@@yaminatoday1151 You're right, I was fast and loose with my response. I do understand the concept of "everyone is welcome, as long as they repent, even though they've been bad", but I thought the statement was trivial, it's long been repeated, I've heard it countless times. The bigger issue is that it lumps everybody in to this bucket of "being bad", that may not necessarily be bad, like...................homosexuals. Our morality cannot be informed by books written thousands of years ago, we need to be current, and consider our cultural evolution, and how morality has evolved over time. Consider slavery, at the time the bible was written it was perfectly fine, indeed the bible never says "Slavery is immoral! Free your slaves!", a huge moral fail.
@@hongotedesco8931 Actually, our morality CAN be informed by a book written thousands of years ago. It's simply your own opinion that it can't be. Secondly, the bible was never written to allow evolving cultures to dictate its value. Quite the opposite. The bible is a book that is meant to GIVE evolving cultures a solid moral ground to walk on. Speaking of slavery, the bible actually DOES speak against slavery - the kind that involves kidnapping and slave-trading - you know, American-style slavery. Where it approves slavery is with Jews during wars, and slavery such as indentured servitude. The Bible recognizes that most humans are servants/slaves to a boss or owner (even at our jobs). In this fallen world, and because of sin, God did not eradicate servitude and certain types of slavery. But even THEN, the bible tells masters to not be harsh with their slaves and servants and commands those who follow Christ (for God cannot command the heart unwilling to obey Him) to LOVE even their own workers, servants, and slaves. The bible never took its cues from popular culture. Nor will it. Nor should it.
I'm a conservative christian, and a bible teacher as well. I've been countered with many of the arguments that were brought up in this video. The one that I find the most amusing is when someone points out that the topic of homosexuality is only covered a handful of times in the Bible, like five or six. My rebuttal to this is the same here ... How many times does it NEED to be declared wrong by God before it's wrong? Seven? Is the bible one or two times shy of this being completely and universally wrong? How about 10 times? 20? A hundred? Maybe a thousand? What is the definitive cut off point from it just being situationally/culturally wrong at the time to being universally wrong? The fact that God destroyed a city where this 'lifestyle' was being practiced should speak volumes! The fact that the first commandment where it's specifically addressed refers to homosexuality as an Abomination in the eyes of God should also speak volumes.
Um, you're right, it doesn't matter whether it's one time or more. What's wrong is wrong. Eg, when the bible advocates genocide, it just takes that one instance to declare the bible as being morally corrupt. But we can also cite the fact that the bible doesn't say "Free your slaves! Slavery is bad!" at a time when slavery was rampant. Another moral fail. Let's face it, the bible was written by men of their time....it's not god. We don't even have any evidence that god exists. So until you prove god's existence, and you prove that the words in the bible were *actually* from god, it's unconscionable to make these claims.
Thank you for this compassionate and truth based discussion. This is an issue of our times and as Christians we need to know how to stay grounded in truth and yet communicate that truth in a compassionate and loving way. And also to understand other views and yet think biblically. Thank you gentlemen for not backing off from these challenging subjects.
I agree, we have to be compassionate and respectful as Christians towards others, not judgemental or quick to condemn which only alienates people from the church and is contrary to Jesus teachings. That said, we should not distort the scripture or misrepresent the Gospel and God's law on this issue to accommodate sexual deviancy as accepted and normal, as though the Christian faith has changed its position as some homosexual faith teachers are now beginning to do online. We find truth in the scripture itself and people should refer to it.
I really like and support the fact that the Bible and God also support Slavery, rape, the eating of sushi, wearing mixed fibers (basically all modern clothing), men only being able to wear short hair, and women not being allowed to be in positions of responsibility or power. Fantastic stuff! If the Bible is so true, why did God say this stuff? It's always baffled me how people can support this. God undeniably said this! There is no way around it! He even gave the specifics on the extent to which you could beat your slaves! I find it funny how quick God is to judge others when his own methods are selfish, cruel, imperfect, unjust, immoral, and shockingly wrong. Either the Bible is imperfect, or God is a morally corrupt being not worthy of worship. I don't see any way to justify those things. This is easily extended to the topic of homosexuality as well. Why did God create animals that participate in homosexual acts? Why is it only 'natural' in animals but not in humans? (Look up giraffes! They are literally the most gay thing on this planet) I think it also calls into question why God would create a function in the human brain that even has this ability. Why curse an entire group of people with not being able to be married in his eyes? Why block them from the love of others? If God made the human brain: Why did he create a function so horribly alienating? I also noticed in the video that "ancient civilizations didn't have a form of birth control so homosexuality is the only act that doesn't result in procreation" which is... just so laughable it's actually sad. Ancient Rome made an entire species of plant go extinct because it was such an effective form of birth control. That and the whole idea that "Sex is all about making babies" is just wrong. Gay people aren't the only ones who participate in oral sex. Straight couples have sex for fun all the time. Don't lie. It's true. The Catholics even have a whole schedule they developed so that they could have sex for fun under "God's natural guidance" (Basically they just follow a woman's cycle to avoid having children when they don't want to) It's insulting. That and the whole stereotype of gay people "only doing it for sex" is absurd as well! Did you get married only for sex? Is that really the only thing you value in your wife/husband? Really? I would argue that Gay people even value their relationships more because they get so much hateful crap for simply loving someone. You are probably asking: "So if it's not about sex why are you even gay?" Simple. For the same reason you are straight and love your husband/wife. Looks, personality, goals, mannerisms, the way they think about things etc etc etc. In fact, I would turn the question around: If you think it's so easy to just want to fall in love with someone, why not try being gay for 5 minutes? Come on! If you think we can do it, show us how! Because trust me, I've tried. I hated myself from the age of 12-17. Every day I tried desperately to make myself a straight guy and it hurt more than you can possibly imagine to attempt and fix myself alone. Because I knew that if my parents found out, I would be disowned and cut off from my 6 younger siblings who like their parents are Creationists who think that being gay means being a messed up, morally black, viper who only seeks to corrupt and destroy the stuff that perfectly whole straight people have. I'm 18 right now and my parents still don't know. I love my parents and younger siblings a ton. I think a lot of Christians forget that there are more gay people around them than they expect and that whether you know it or not: There are almost definitely people in your life right now who are just as alone as I am. People who are waiting to be able to support themselves enough so that they can safely distance themselves from the people they love and cherish so that at least their family won't hate them or condemn them to hell. I think the biggest myth of all is that gay people want to indoctrinate kids. As a gay guy, if you take away one thing above all others from reading this, please understand: I would never wish homosexuality on anyone. Ever. I hate it, even now that I have accepted who I am. I would rather die than pass such a self-loathing, lonely, and miserable existence onto anyone. In this day and age, it is a curse. Anyone who says otherwise is in an extraordinarily blessed position or is lying to themselves. Maybe one day I will feel better about it, but it will never be worth the agony and waste of time that it took to get to whatever happiness I may find in the future. The only thing that gay people are looking for as far as kids go is to find the younger people who know they are gay so that they can educate them and show them that they don't have to be bitter, or lonely, or morally corrupt, or that they are not worthy of love. It is a really slippery slope when a person is cut off from family. Gay people know that more than anyone and I think that's why there are a good amount of gay people who struggle with committed relationships. Because those people DO exist, especially in Christian households. And unlike straight people, there are no parents to talk to about this. No straight Creationist couple is going to understand their gay child's struggle. Unless they don't hold to biblical literalism it can be so hurtful to hear family members talk like they do. My own mother has unknowingly hurt me many times when she has talked about how demented gay people are. How sick, unnatural, and cursed I AM and how I am going to hell. She doesn't know that I am gay. Because people don't realize that there isn't a difference. None. I'm a person with feelings, hopes, and dreams too. I know I started this long excapade with sarcasm, but I do hope whoever has taken the time to read this has a good day and that hopefully at least a bit of my long rant has reached you.
@@huskydragon2000 Oh you absolutely can. In particular since god is an invention. Everything "we know" about god was just invented by ancient men. There are tribes in the amazon that live quite comfortably w/o the notion of god, much less this christ fella.....completely unnecessary.
@@hongotedesco8931 One day, you’ll find out how wrong you are about God, my friend. In the meantime, I will grieve for you and for everyone who thinks as you do - it is incredibly tragic.
I was wrestling with this too…. And so far, what’s helped me stand is …”if participating in homosexual acts /marriage is God ordained, then where is that example in the Bible?” There isn’t an example of god ordained, homosexual marriage in the Bible. Every example I’ve seen is between man and woman
@@lyrictroy2466 Not sure if that's the standard you want to use. Lot's daughters got him drunk so they could get impregnated by him, and God said nothing against them. Also King David had 8 wives, and his son Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines, and God said nothing against them for that.
@@evulnater I mean, besides it saying not to engage in homosexual acts /adultery/ fornication /incest etc, that’s all I have to go off of. I can’t preach or agree that homosexual acts aren’t sinful when in each scenario, it is
dont listen to these guys. this old guy doesnt even know that when he has sex with his wife for pleasure and not to make a baby, he's committing sin. all sex is not for making a baby between straight people. but thats not convenient for him, clearly. anyway the term that is translated (newly, since society has stopped its several century long murdering of gay people) as "men in bed with other men", according to linguists may also mean "prostitution". so there is a very good possibility that these types are not only driving people from Christ based on a lie, but theyre also preventing us from the sanctity of marriage, plunging us into premarittal sex which is sin. read your bible, accept christ as your savior, do as Jesus and the 10 commandments tell you, and ull be fine. these verses are anything but clear about homosexuality. on the contrary. and they are translated many times over. God doesnt make mistakes. Some people choose to be gay. they shouldnt. some people are gay b/c that is how God biologically wired them. that is as much of a sin as being autistic or bipolar. pray and ask
@@lyrictroy2466 in which scenario? Fun fact - the Bible doesn't forbid incest between a father and his daughter. Does that mean it's okay? Homosexuality is not in the Bible as the whole concept was completely unfamiliar to people in these times. It's funny when people think that the Bible is "clear on that matter" when it absolutely isn't. Question: do you eat kosher? If not, why not? The apostles clearly decided that gentile Christians should eat kosher.
Truth and love go together. Having only truth makes you a bigot and having only love makes you a progressive. Marrying them together is impossible with our human strength. Only Christ can show us that way.
Christ said go and sin no more. He told her the hard truth because He loved her. He told the Pharisee the hard truth as well. Two different responses to the same living truth
A conversation I think more of us should have is one in which we learn how to engage both those who are connecting with the church without any intention to follow Christ, and those who are within the church and outright working against it. I often think of Jesus with Judas; how He knew when He chose him that he would betray Him. Judas did not only enjoy a close relationship with Jesus, and a large responsibility for daily care (he was in charge of the purse of Jesus’ ministry); Judas was also given the authority to heal the sick, cast out demons, preach the gospel, and baptize. I’ve met some believers who seem very quick to write people off if they feel they are not sincere or only connecting with the church to meet their physical needs (Jesus fed the crowds and even called them on their motivation for following Him; yet He still fed them). Have any of you had experiences with people who “used” the church, but were not truly seeking Christ? I understand that God is the only one who ultimately knows a person’s heart; I’m talking about simply based on the persons words and actions, and our limited perspective of them.
That is interesting, thanks. perhaps it is a case of "giving people enough rope to hang themselves"? after a time period has passed, God gives them over to the true state of their heart
I have a muay thai classmate who's a 16 year old atheist. And his girlfriend used to be catholic. One reason she told me she left the church is that it was "too rigid". When I asked her if by "rigid" she meant the Christian sexual ethics she nodded. She showed she was never a believer, her idol is her own desires deep down. This is not exactly the type of ppl you described but I guess is close enough
How about this: How about forget the church, forget the bible....after all, it's a fact that thousands of religions/gods have been invented by humans over the millennia. Do you believe Muhammad had regular conversations with the archangel Gabriel? Yeah..... How about just being good and kind? Just for its own sake, not to satisfy some imaginary being?
Very thoughtful and thorough. Wow. Truly compassionate and yet standing strong on scripture. Even I could follow these well versed men. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for taking sober and heartfelt and biblically based look at this controversial topic.
I really like and support the fact that the Bible and God also support Slavery, rape, the eating of sushi, wearing mixed fibers (basically all modern clothing), men only being able to wear short hair, and women not being allowed to be in positions of responsibility or power. Fantastic stuff! If the Bible is so true, why did God say this stuff? It's always baffled me how people can support this. God undeniably said this! There is no way around it! He even gave the specifics on the extent to which you could beat your slaves! I find it funny how quick God is to judge others when his own methods are selfish, cruel, imperfect, unjust, immoral, and shockingly wrong. Either the Bible is imperfect, or God is a morally corrupt being not worthy of worship. I don't see any way to justify those things. This is easily extended to the topic of homosexuality as well. Why did God create animals that participate in homosexual acts? Why is it only 'natural' in animals but not in humans? (Look up giraffes! They are literally the most gay thing on this planet) I think it also calls into question why God would create a function in the human brain that even has this ability. Why curse an entire group of people with not being able to be married in his eyes? Why block them from the love of others? If God made the human brain: Why did he create a function so horribly alienating? I also noticed in the video that "ancient civilizations didn't have a form of birth control so homosexuality is the only act that doesn't result in procreation" which is... just so laughable it's actually sad. Ancient Rome made an entire species of plant go extinct because it was such an effective form of birth control. That and the whole idea that "Sex is all about making babies" is just wrong. Gay people aren't the only ones who participate in oral sex. Straight couples have sex for fun all the time. Don't lie. It's true. The Catholics even have a whole schedule they developed so that they could have sex for fun under "God's natural guidance" (Basically they just follow a woman's cycle to avoid having children when they don't want to) It's insulting. That and the whole stereotype of gay people "only doing it for sex" is absurd as well! Did you get married only for sex? Is that really the only thing you value in your wife/husband? Really? I would argue that Gay people even value their relationships more because they get so much hateful crap for simply loving someone. You are probably asking: "So if it's not about sex why are you even gay?" Simple. For the same reason you are straight and love your husband/wife. Looks, personality, goals, mannerisms, the way they think about things etc etc etc. In fact, I would turn the question around: If you think it's so easy to just want to fall in love with someone, why not try being gay for 5 minutes? Come on! If you think we can do it, show us how! Because trust me, I've tried. I hated myself from the age of 12-17. Every day I tried desperately to make myself a straight guy and it hurt more than you can possibly imagine to attempt and fix myself alone. Because I knew that if my parents found out, I would be disowned and cut off from my 6 younger siblings who like their parents are Creationists who think that being gay means being a messed up, morally black, viper who only seeks to corrupt and destroy the stuff that perfectly whole straight people have. I'm 18 right now and my parents still don't know. I love my parents and younger siblings a ton. I think a lot of Christians forget that there are more gay people around them than they expect and that whether you know it or not: There are almost definitely people in your life right now who are just as alone as I am. People who are waiting to be able to support themselves enough so that they can safely distance themselves from the people they love and cherish so that at least their family won't hate them or condemn them to hell. I think the biggest myth of all is that gay people want to indoctrinate kids. As a gay guy, if you take away one thing above all others from reading this, please understand: I would never wish homosexuality on anyone. Ever. I hate it, even now that I have accepted who I am. I would rather die than pass such a self-loathing, lonely, and miserable existence onto anyone. In this day and age, it is a curse. Anyone who says otherwise is in an extraordinarily blessed position or is lying to themselves. Maybe one day I will feel better about it, but it will never be worth the agony and waste of time that it took to get to whatever happiness I may find in the future. The only thing that gay people are looking for as far as kids go is to find the younger people who know they are gay so that they can educate them and show them that they don't have to be bitter, or lonely, or morally corrupt, or that they are not worthy of love. It is a really slippery slope when a person is cut off from family. Gay people know that more than anyone and I think that's why there are a good amount of gay people who struggle with committed relationships. Because those people DO exist, especially in Christian households. And unlike straight people, there are no parents to talk to about this. No straight Creationist couple is going to understand their gay child's struggle. Unless they don't hold to biblical literalism it can be so hurtful to hear family members talk like they do. My own mother has unknowingly hurt me many times when she has talked about how demented gay people are. How sick, unnatural, and cursed I AM and how I am going to hell. She doesn't know that I am gay. Because people don't realize that there isn't a difference. None. I'm a person with feelings, hopes, and dreams too. I know I started this long excapade with sarcasm, but I do hope whoever has taken the time to read this has a good day and that hopefully at least a bit of my long rant has reached you.
I "Thank God" for Christians in the spot light who stand with scripture and speak the word of God in our culture. My current place of employment celebrated "pride month". We frequently have patients that are male and we are expected to call them she. We are all sinners saved by God's grace. I don't celebrate my own sin. I certainly don't want to celebrate others sin either.
Lol God made all men to be gay, it's their anatomy and if look at patterns of male sexual behavior all throughout history, it's certainly their preference.
The one part that people seem to gloss over is that God must be put 1st. If you put anything in front of your love for God that is an idol. Also if the 1st thing you identify as is anything other than Christian you have made that your idol. If you come with a statement "as long as I can do X I'm willing to be a Christian" then you have put something before God.
I agree that people shouldn't identify with one things alone, but that includes a deity whose existence is not self-evident (no matter what Romans 1:20 or any of the surahs says). If you say identify with a supernatural concept alone and don't let anything change you mind, you come of more as a cultist than a free thinker.
@@js1423 My comment on here is not trying to debate with someone whether Christianity is right or wrong. In the Christian faith to be a follower Of Jesus one must put everything else secondary to Jesus. The question being asked is can you put something ahead of your adherence to the Christian faith and still accurately call yourself a Christian. The answer to that is no. The Bible is very clear that there is a price to being a Christian. Now if you're not willing to pay that price, no one is trying to force you to and in no way should a Christian persecute an unbeliever for any reason. 1st Corinthians Paul clearly says that the job of the believer is not to judge the unbeliever that is God's domain. The job of the believer is to discern within the church and help his brothers and sisters stay on the right path.
@@JSRINTX Spencer Klavan, the openly gay and engaged son of the Daily Wire-pundit Andrew Klavan, also states a Christian should built their identity on Jesus in his Babylon Bee-interview. Does him being in a same-sex marriage prevent him from being a genuine Christian?
@@js1423 I don't know much about him but I will say this. If people are only willing to be a Christian as long as they can do x. Then they are in violation Jesus's teaching. Luke 14:26. Religion is not about changing God to fit your wants and desires. I also believe all sexual sin whether it is premarital sex, adultery, homosexuality, and as Jesus said lust of the eyes (1 John 2 15:17) brings you farther away from God. So to do things or promote things that bring you away from God is something I do not find congruent with the Christian faith. I think there is a huge desire to make Christianity pick and choose what you like and throw away what you don't and like I said before that is not religion that is man's self deception.
Is there a conversation as to whether the writings of Paul trump the actions of Christ? I am sure the thought is rather nuanced, and has a name. I just have no idea what it is. So much of what people look to is their perception of living example in Christ, not the words of Paul. I think here in lies a lot of the drift. Is Paul equative to Moses? Is his heart hardened? We know he was flawed, and is his word legalist, or is does his - and the church's history point to the cyclical human experience the Hebrew of old had? I wonder on this a lot. Not namely for the sake of this debate, but just in general.
“Non-procreative sex”? This is what they used in my grandmother’s day to say that sex was only allowed even in marriage in order to have babies. When your family was complete, sex stopped. This teaching was devastating for many marriages.
@@grainiac7824 I believe it was a Victorian Era teaching. Part of the idea came from the Scripture “in sin did my mother conceive me”. Also there was a body=bad/spirit=good idea. The term “non-procreative sex” was made, I think, to include various sex acts that don’t produce children and legislate what married people do in their private lives.
@@gareth2736 it's basically what the catholic church teaches to this day. Sexual activity only for procreation. Nothing else. Not even in marriage. All contraception is forbidden. But at this point the protestant churches in the US have become almost indistinguishable from the catholic church anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if that became "official doctrine" of evangelicals very soon.
The gospel was never meant to be “inclusive.” Sin is sin. It’s separates the saved and unsaved. Everyone would end up in Heaven if the modern idea of what it means to be inclusive were true.
God made us all. All of us sin. You can't criticize one sin over another. A sin is a sin; no sin is worse/better than another except maybe blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Jesus said others will know us, Christians, by our love. God is love.
@@terrilynch7845 when did I criticize one sin over another? Sin blocks us from salvation. If ANYONE confesses their sin and accepts Jesus as their Lord and savior, then they’re saved. Unfortunately a lot of people in the gay community don’t look at that particular sin as a sin. The Bible is very clear that it is.
@@terrilynch7845 Ok, good, if they don’t think their homosexuality is a sin and act on it then they’re not Christian. It would be like me committing adultery on my wife for the last 15 years and all the while claiming it’s not a sin. I wouldn’t be a Christian then, no matter what I claimed to be.
i come from a church family, no emotional or sexual trauma, no absent father or over-protective mother, 2 brothers who are both straight and i'm gay but because of criticism from the church and society i started praying for God to help me with heterosexuality ever since i reached puberty. i'm now 67 - still waiting.
I pray everyday that God takes my lust away... but it's still here. Some of these sins are just in our nature and inescapable in this fallen world and this short life. We look to the cross with Joy (not happiness) that we will be redeemed. I'm sorry that you've struggled so long with that, brother. You are not alone. God loves you and always draws you to Himself. It's up to us to open the door and embrace him in our lives
Exactly. My uncle is a Church of England Reverend and whenever I have questions he says we should always rely on the scripture ourselves to find answers and truth.
I really like and support the fact that the Bible and God also support Slavery, rape, the eating of sushi, wearing mixed fibers (basically all modern clothing), men only being able to wear short hair, and women not being allowed to be in positions of responsibility or power. Fantastic stuff! If the Bible is so true, why did God say this stuff? It's always baffled me how people can support this. God undeniably said this! There is no way around it! He even gave the specifics on the extent to which you could beat your slaves! I find it funny how quick God is to judge others when his own methods are selfish, cruel, imperfect, unjust, immoral, and shockingly wrong. Either the Bible is imperfect, or God is a morally corrupt being not worthy of worship. I don't see any way to justify those things. This is easily extended to the topic of homosexuality as well. Why did God create animals that participate in homosexual acts? Why is it only 'natural' in animals but not in humans? (Look up giraffes! They are literally the most gay thing on this planet) I think it also calls into question why God would create a function in the human brain that even has this ability. Why curse an entire group of people with not being able to be married in his eyes? Why block them from the love of others? If God made the human brain: Why did he create a function so horribly alienating? I also noticed in the video that "ancient civilizations didn't have a form of birth control so homosexuality is the only act that doesn't result in procreation" which is... just so laughable it's actually sad. Ancient Rome made an entire species of plant go extinct because it was such an effective form of birth control. That and the whole idea that "Sex is all about making babies" is just wrong. Gay people aren't the only ones who participate in oral sex. Straight couples have sex for fun all the time. Don't lie. It's true. The Catholics even have a whole schedule they developed so that they could have sex for fun under "God's natural guidance" (Basically they just follow a woman's cycle to avoid having children when they don't want to) It's insulting. That and the whole stereotype of gay people "only doing it for sex" is absurd as well! Did you get married only for sex? Is that really the only thing you value in your wife/husband? Really? I would argue that Gay people even value their relationships more because they get so much hateful crap for simply loving someone. You are probably asking: "So if it's not about sex why are you even gay?" Simple. For the same reason you are straight and love your husband/wife. Looks, personality, goals, mannerisms, the way they think about things etc etc etc. In fact, I would turn the question around: If you think it's so easy to just want to fall in love with someone, why not try being gay for 5 minutes? Come on! If you think we can do it, show us how! Because trust me, I've tried. I hated myself from the age of 12-17. Every day I tried desperately to make myself a straight guy and it hurt more than you can possibly imagine to attempt and fix myself alone. Because I knew that if my parents found out, I would be disowned and cut off from my 6 younger siblings who like their parents are Creationists who think that being gay means being a messed up, morally black, viper who only seeks to corrupt and destroy the stuff that perfectly whole straight people have. I'm 18 right now and my parents still don't know. I love my parents and younger siblings a ton. I think a lot of Christians forget that there are more gay people around them than they expect and that whether you know it or not: There are almost definitely people in your life right now who are just as alone as I am. People who are waiting to be able to support themselves enough so that they can safely distance themselves from the people they love and cherish so that at least their family won't hate them or condemn them to hell. I think the biggest myth of all is that gay people want to indoctrinate kids. As a gay guy, if you take away one thing above all others from reading this, please understand: I would never wish homosexuality on anyone. Ever. I hate it, even now that I have accepted who I am. I would rather die than pass such a self-loathing, lonely, and miserable existence onto anyone. In this day and age, it is a curse. Anyone who says otherwise is in an extraordinarily blessed position or is lying to themselves. Maybe one day I will feel better about it, but it will never be worth the agony and waste of time that it took to get to whatever happiness I may find in the future. The only thing that gay people are looking for as far as kids go is to find the younger people who know they are gay so that they can educate them and show them that they don't have to be bitter, or lonely, or morally corrupt, or that they are not worthy of love. It is a really slippery slope when a person is cut off from family. Gay people know that more than anyone and I think that's why there are a good amount of gay people who struggle with committed relationships. Because those people DO exist, especially in Christian households. And unlike straight people, there are no parents to talk to about this. No straight Creationist couple is going to understand their gay child's struggle. Unless they don't hold to biblical literalism it can be so hurtful to hear family members talk like they do. My own mother has unknowingly hurt me many times when she has talked about how demented gay people are. How sick, unnatural, and cursed I AM and how I am going to hell. She doesn't know that I am gay. Because people don't realize that there isn't a difference. None. I'm a person with feelings, hopes, and dreams too. I know I started this long excapade with sarcasm, but I do hope whoever has taken the time to read this has a good day and that hopefully at least a bit of my long rant has reached you.
Something mentioned in the beginning of this video but was quickly glossed over was the issue of divorce. There’s a ton of divorce and remarriage within the church, and not always because cheating. Are Christians as concerned about the adultery committed daily by these 2nd marriages? It seems like the Catholic Church is the only one that has any consistency on this.
This issue is one of the greatest challenges to the Church ever. I do believe God is displeased with how Christians are responding. We are still commanded to Love LGBTQ people. Too many Christians respond to LGBTQ people with what I call non-love. This non-love includes enacting legislation to essentially take away LGBTQ people's humanity. Therefore, how do we respond to them with Love? How does that look?
Said as a true victim. Love is warning. Stern warnings. Not hate. But if you are told that is hate and you are a victim over and over- you believe it. Salvation is inclusive BUT Repentance is required for salvation. Practicing and celebrating lawlessness (sin) means you didn’t seek Jesus, didn’t repentant- and not even in the process of it. THEN gays claim victim of hate and unless the church AFFIRMS continuing in sin/lawlessness/abomination (against Gods design)- or WE are the ones who are sinning. We know our sins, we know not to celebrate and affirm them. If we don’t- we expect those in the church to warn us out of love. Not affirm or celebrate our abominations.
The Gospel is inclusive to all who accept Christ and make a concerted effort to turn from their sin! It's not enough for someone to day that they've accepted Christ, yet continue living a life of sin with no effort to truly repent!
I believe the gospel is to be shared with every person; no matter what their sins have, and how much they have sinned. I believe the gospel also draws a line in the sand, between Jesus and all other hopes of attaining to the presence of almighty God, the Father, forgiveness of sins, perfect holiness, and eternal life. So, I believe the gospel is inclusive in a way, and exclusive in another.
@Schooey in a way, yes. The Old Testament foretold the covenant God would make with humanity through His Son. The New Testament is the testimony of that prophecy being fulfilled. The covenants we read about in the Old Testament were steps of preparation for the covenant with Christ. To be sure, the Old covenants removed no one’s sin. The covenant with Christ cleanses us from all sin. At the same time, Jesus and the apostles honored the faith of the old covenant saints; and recognized the New covenant was the fulfillment of the requirements of the old.
Only the person who hates Jesus is excluded by the Bible. Jesus doesn't care what sin you're involved in because sin is human nature - He bids you to come to him, no restrictions. If you ask how inclusive LGBTIQ lobbyists are - perhaps they exclude Jesus rather than Jesus excluding them. Perhaps its the LGBTIQ lobbyists who think theres something wrong with the church rather than the church thinking they want to exclude gay or trans people. I think the real issue is that LGBTIQ activists want leadership and teaching roles - and because those activists are not permitted that role they want to call the church exclusionary or not-inclusive - but really that's just evidence of their intent to usurp authority rather than be actual Christians. When you remove Christ from the center of Biblical theology and replace him with an identity group (like say Disabled people) and interpret through that lens - your misreading the Bible, you cutting people off from understanding it if youre the one teaching them. Unless you truly love Christ as evidenced by handling the Bible correctly in speech and deed - then you have no business leading or teaching anyone regardless of your political or intersectional identity.
With regards to the primary issues of the faith, I agree wholeheartedly with the discussion @ 40:00. However, I think it's important to always keep in mind what what John says in Revelation, specifically Revelation 13. When discussing the mark of the beast, instead of saying "this will require endurance" like he does many times throughout the book, he says "This will require wisdom." A careful reading of chapter 13 shows many intentional call backs to Genesis. What I think this means is that the end times deception will be intense. Imagine a Church that is church in every possible conceivable way, except to those who have the "wisdom" John talks about. TL;DR : Theology matters more than personal experience. Know it, or be deceived in the last days
I think "You shall not lie with a male" would be understood as any type of sexual relations. If "to lie" is a euphemism for sexual relations, then there would really be no need to specify "as with a woman". When Leviticus 18:22 adds "as with a woman", it implies that it is speaking of a specific kind of sexual relation. How does a male lie with a woman specifically? Penetration. So I think the verse can be interpreted to say that "You shall not penetrate another male". I think this compliments the context of cleanliness codes, as anal sexual relations would be seen as unclean.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Sexual activities with same sex makes a homosexual. God created sexual act for reproduction- that tells us all homosexuality activity is an abomination- not His design.
I was thinking of 2 things while this was going: the Bible describes homosexual sin as a greater and a more ingrained sin: being given over more to a reprobate mind, than other sins. The Bible does describe greater and lesser sins, though all sins need Christ's forgiveness. Also I was thinking about the allowance of concubines and multiple wives for Abraham, David, Solomon etc. going against the genesis design position. Yes this was cultural but why wasn't this, especially w the notion of concubines, specifically changed according to the design of God? In other words, if design of marriage was so important, 1 woman and 1 man why didn't God specifically give commands to the Israelites to change the cultural flow in this area when they had to in others?
I also think God allowed these stories to show that he doesn't approve of it. Every home that was apart from God's design of one man and one woman in the Bible seemed to be ladden with great problems because of it. God will work through it regardless. The Bible (or gospel specifically) was written so that we may not sin, but if we do sin.... God will still work out His purpose through it
Yet God also destroyed cities and executed people for ignoring the poor and needy. Furthermore the Bible lists pride, arrogance, lying, etc. also as great and abominable sins.
I had the same thought, we don't use kid gloves for other si s identified in the Bible. Saying 'clobber passages' implies the words themselves are meant to harm people. It seems to be a judgement on God's word.
I'd be enabling Sean if I didn't tell him that he doesn't have to give in to pressure from society, to do his hair like that. Sean i hope you get a bit of a laugh out of this'n. Thank you for your work. All the best to you and your immediate flock.
Lol lol that's so funny to me, bc my Dad.. who is 63.. and just left his wife of 20 years for one of their much younger friends.. has been wearing his hair (same color now) just like that lately lol maybe with a bit more Mohawk in the middle lol
At minute 9:15 the topic of marriage comes up- I’d like to recommend the excellent in-depth and thorough study of Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage by Mike Winger.
If God makes no mistake, how do you explain intersex humans? There is a variety of chromosomes that are different than the usual XX - XY. I was raised Catholic, yet my grand-mother was reprimanded by her parish priest for not being pregnant after her 13th child. This has led my family to walk away from Church. We have faith, but don't rely on other humans to manage our lives, with all the division and interpretation within Christianity, excluding *the others*. I live by the Golden Rule, that is common to most religions. I chose to respect people and do good. I'm divorced and I was told if I gave money to the Church, then I could remarry, oh well. This is the kind of thing that drove so many away from practicing within organized religions.
I'm not sure that in the ancient world, there were no preventative measures for pregnancy. The biblical Onan is at least one example. I can well imagine that other methods were in use, even though not as effective as modern methods.
Yes there was, abstinence. Sometimes, a person just says no. Also, when working hard everyday (food, water, shelter, protection, etc.), sex takes a far lower priority.
Great point in regards to Onan. I’m not sure that it would be proper to call Onan’s action a preventative measure, in the sense we understand preventative measures today, because it was a sin. Closer examination of Genesis 38 reveals that Onan was to fulfill the Mosaic requirement (Deut. 38:1-10) of impregnating his deceased brothers wife (since she had no children by her husband, Onan’s brother). During intercourse, Onan pulled out and wasted the semen on the ground and verse 10 shows that what he did was wicked in God’s sight and he died as a result. So I’m not sure if I’d call that preventative since the Bible classified it as wicked and thus put reproduction in such a high regard.
@@dhodge0127 As a preventative measure, it was certainly effective. Even if the motive was sinful. Only wanted to point out that the ancient world *did* have ways to prevent pregnancy without regarding their moral nature. In other words, sin does not make some measure ineffective. Compare it to abortion: certainly effective for ending pregnancy, wherever you stand on the moral issue.
@@bogusphone8000 excellent point. Just saying "no" is certainly effective. And good point about hard work affecting sex drive. Today we work far less than the ancient world and often with much less physical labor.
I was formally a practicing homosexual but God convicted me and I repented and was baptized and surrendered my life to being a practicing disciple of Christ Jesus... Now, my same sex attraction didn't just go away with a wave of a divine wand... I learned that I still need to renew my mind and walk in total surrender and carry my own cross on a daily bases... However, if someone were to convince me and offer me the liberty that I could still go to heaven and have all the rewards as any other heterosexual person but I could remain a homosexual and even to have a boyfriend or a "life long mate of the same sex" then I'd prefer to do that instead, since it would be much more easy for me in this life... So, I said all that the point out this statement which I think it is an extremely unbiblical and absolutely dangerous statement... @42:50 Gay & celibate, or side A and side B - .."I don't think that necessarily being, ah, being gay and sexually involved necessarily disqualify you from membership in the Kingdom. I think gay & celibate is the preferred position biblically and theologically.." Nope, this is what the scriptures ACTUALLY say about this.... "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will NEVER ENTER the kingdom of heaven." {Matthew 5:20 ESV} Just before this passage, Jesus also says this, ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." {Matthew 5:17-19 ESV} And in Revelation a voice from The Throne (which would be either God the Father or Son) says, "The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the SEXUALLY immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their PORTION WILL BE IN the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."" {Revelation 21:7-8 ESV} The scripture, and Jesus, NEVER AFFIRM any same sex romantic relationships, let alone unions. EVER. But, in fact condemn those in the strongest of terms. (Lev. 20:13; 18:22; Deut. 23:17; Rom. 1:26-27)
Being offended (i.e. "harmed") is a result of one's own refusal to acknowledge who retains the position of Lordship and Godhead over one's own life... If I am so proud and arrogant to refuse to consider lordship and ultimate authority to the Almighty Creator of the whole cosmos, then yes, I'm going to "feel" harm and hurt when my own self perception of my own authority to dictate my terms of morality are challenged.
They keep using the idea of being “loving” to get into the Christian Church. But make them speak to Absolute Truth, and then see how they run. The enemy is doing this to keep us AWAY from the Truth. Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Without Truth, we have no Gospel or even Bible. You can have Life without being “loved”, but you cannot live without the Truth. Love rejoices in the Truth.
These interesting games we play with words are awesome. This is also why I feel that the men in the bible are often the most exclusivist. God, especially in Jesus, remains very inclusivist. Drawing the lines between man and God, and who did what, and for why, is really intriguing. I feel as though Jesus used pointed words, and his actions and reasons are observed and just as, if not more important. This seems to reflect the way he sees us, our hearts, as well. Words are clumsy. Limiting. HE is not.
@@michaeljmeyer3 I mean what is tolerant and inclusive varies much from time to time. Before the Middle Ages and Early Modern period the Ottoman Empire was quite tolerant towards Christian and Jewish minorities (didn't actively persecute them) but with the arrival of the enlightenment in Europe during the 18th and 19th century, they quickly were seen as backwards and theocratic.
As a heads up to whoever that guy is (can't remember his name) at 21:30 he said that in the ancient world there were no birth control methods which is false. For example, even before Jesus's time condoms had already been around for hundreds of years.
How can marriage, adultery, divorce and remarriage not be a salvation issue when Jesus clearly said those who commit adultery will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Because salvation is based on one's faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-10). Good works and a changed life don't merit salvation; only belief in Christ does. Once saved you are a new creation in Christ. You are no longer defined by your sin- you are a Child of God. But Christians still have to grow and abide in Christ, something we often fail to do. He is the True Vine. We can do nothing apart from Him except wither.
@@rmatthi6722 Beautifully said!. Also once you are a new creation in Christ, a changed life and some type of good works follow as an outpouring, if the faith in Christ and repentance of sin is genuine.
@@matildafaltyn6253 Glad you mentioned repentance as that's what I was going to say lol. If someone has done any in the list and is wilfully unrepentant the verse gives you the conclusion as to what will happen to them.
612 commandments from Mosaic law and most Christians say they don’t oppose same sex relationships out of hate for the people only hate for sin. Yet shaving your beard breaks a law, cutting your hair at the temple, eating shellfish. Where is the hate for breaking these commandments and others? We should be protesting barber shops and Red lobster
Overall I feel like this issue is progressing to a hermeneutics disagreement more than a moral disagreement. More conversations between affirming and non affirming talking about how they view scripture would be sick! Maybe it already exists on the channel idk.
Hermeneutics: understanding the cultural and historical context of language while also taking into account the definition/meaning if the language being used. Hermeneutics is ti develope an understanding the language being used.
I am a reborn Christian if you do not believe that God hates that sexual sin then you call Him a liar. I fell for the lie and now set free. Believe me it eventually will destroy you and your relationship with God. Don’t do it! God loves you so much. He sent Jesus to set you free. Blessings…
Calling the treatment of women and slaves in the old testament "Radical coequal inclusion," is frankly delusional. Although I noticed he always slips on "In the kingdom of God," to make it clear he's not defending the current-life treatment of women and slaves in the old testament.
Without picking the fly poop from the pepper on the definition of inclusive, conversations like this are very necessary as the Bible is inclusive of all people but not all actions. Its through these discussions believers learn how to engage the culture to edify fellow sinners, because saved or unsaved you are a sinner, bringing those sincerely repentant people struggling with same sex attraction or gender dysmorphia (tempted but not transgressing) into a right and truthful understanding of their true identity in Christ and what that entails. The church should have conviction over the difference between its position on a matter and it's treatment of God's people and seek ways to love the individual whilst vehemently not tolerating the sin
My perception of what Sean said is that the list of unrighteousness in 1Cor 6 is speaking of believers. If one is to believe that 1Cor 6, list of unrighteous acts disqualifies one from inheriting the kingdom of God them why don’t we vehemently point out ALL acts of unrighteousness. Is not divorce (adultery) rampant within the body of Christ? How about covetousness? How about the context that this scripture is talking about taking ‘disputes’ outside to unbelievers and how they will not enter the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:11 and such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. But God… We are cleansed of ALL sin by the blood of Jesus. We are justified by the blood of Jesus.
Oh, this nonsense again about "loving the sinner and hating the sin". It's a lie. And you all know that. Look at reality, at people throwing out their LGBTQ children because "the Bible tells them so". I hope you guys all eat kosher, because the Bible tells you to. Old testament and new.
One very difficult aspect of scripture is the seeming dichotomy between love and rebuke. Scripture calls on us to act in both ways. Listening to your discussion it portrayed to me that love is the only answer. Where does rebuke fit in? The new wave churches are practicing this love only aspect of scripture. To the point that diversity in the church is being described by social construct. Not spiritual gifts. How can church leaders rebuke in love? Without rebuke, the word “no” gets placed on a spectrum, specifically where scripture is concerned.
You actually make a very good point. Our existence is suffused with "love and rebuke", it's our nature. Even found in primitive tribes in the amazon. So no, love isn't the only answer, it's always a mix. The trick is, what is that mix? It changes over time, and I will say it gets *better* over time. We are by no means done, by no means perfect, but we are getting better...
@@hongotedesco8931 so how does that fit with the fact that the 20th century was the most bloody and horrific of all centuries? And even worse more people died from decrees of their own leaders.
Sorry Sir, with all due respect,, if the word of God has primary and secondary issues where the secondary issues can or can't be believed then you are putting the entire Word of God in question. We as Christian's do not need consern us with the world view of us, but rather how God views us.
So for example, one's view of head coverings is enough no make them a false teacher? Is every denomination other than yours wrong? Are they destined to hell for their confused interpretation? Or is there a chance we aren't able to get everything 💯 and God has some grace for us?
Romans 1 talks about those who wanted nothing to do with God. How in the world do you explain the vast numbers of devout Christians raised in godly homes who never turned their backs on God and still have homosexual or non heterosexual orientations? How can they turn their backs on what was never natural to them to begin with? This never should have happened according to the cause and effect of these verses. This is why Exodus closed: it simply did not help and in many cases greatly harmed.
@amalek. Very interesting. Just starting to learn about Exodus. Reading the book STILL TIME TO CARE. I have a son struggling with gender dysphoria. Thx for sharing
When it comes right down to the nitty gritty…it doesn’t really matter what my human fallen mind conjures up when it comes to sexuality, it matters what God says!…cause He made the model and wrote the handbook. Parts is parts and they only work one way! 😉
Well, you'd be surprised at the imagination of humans when it comes to "parts"...not to mention that homosexual behavior has been observed in over 500 different species....why would god want that?
We have to empathize with the "harm" people feel from difficult teachings. A child may feel very hurt if you don't give him candy before dinner, and he may cry because he didn't get what he wanted. And you can support him through being upset, but giving him candy before dinner is actually what would cause harm.
This isn't really the issue, the issue is this idea that LGBT values are somehow wrong. They're not. It's just this blind adherence to what's written in the bible is the problem. The bible is just a set of books written by ancient men, not the word of god. We don't have any evidence for god, much less evidence that what's in the bible is actually the word of god. We should move on from these anachronistic ideas.
@@hongotedesco8931 Something religion has really messed up over history is why sin is wrong. Street preachers like to tell people to repent to avoid being rejected and sent to hell by God. Repentance then becomes about being accepted by God. But this is wrong. God wants us to avoid sin because sin results in isolation from love. It's like heroine, the pleasure lures people in, but the cost is huge and often results in people overdosing or ending up alone on the streets. For a parent to see their child go down this path is probably the hardest thing in the world. But what i've learned is that each person has to learn this for themselves, and God is teaching everyone. He allows suffering because sometimes it's necessary to let your child go down the path they choose and learn the truth for themselves, even if you tell them where it will end up. I believe LGBT values are harmful to the individual, but I think it's more wrong when religious people pressure people to change.
@@patricksqt9535 Well, there's a fundamental issue: "God wants us to avoid sin because sin results in isolation from love". There is zero evidence of any god, so what does that mean? Who decided what god wants? What is sin? Too many unanswered questions. And no, god, an imaginary being, does not allow suffering. If he actually did exist, it would mean he's one awful being. "Allowing suffering" is not just about individual choice. Yeah, Hitler had a choice, but did 6 million jews have a choice? Please...
@@hongotedesco8931 Even though there's no evidence for God, the principles of love remain the same. The principles of objectifying a human vs seeing their inherent value. What defines sin are actions that devalue people. If you consider the richest man in the world and all his wealth and compare him to a starving child in India, whose family is poor because the rich exploit their people and resources. This is a physical representation of the devaluation of people. Have you heard the song Numb by Link in Park? My whole life I have tried to become what others wanted me to be and I completed lost my sense of self, and I couldn't feel love AT ALL for from about 9 years old to 27. I've learned how sin has shoved me underwater and made me invisible. Anyway I know I can't prove God's existence, all I wanted to say is that the message churches have preached has missed the meaning of God's grace. I wish I could help people understand it because it's given me so much freedom.
@@patricksqt9535 I couldn't agree more with "the principles of love remain the same". And most of everything you last wrote. And yes, life is complicated, people need to find "their way", some people have a harder time than others. And it's a complex jumble of genes, family, culture, society, etc, etc. And I completely understand the concept of "God's grace" helping at least some people. But for somebody like me (gods/religions are just inventions), it just falls flat. It's meaningless to me. But that's not why I'm on these forums. I'm on these forums because I don't want to see LGBTQ people stigmatized, vilified, etc, because of these inventions. That's just awful, and downright evil. And the other aspect is the anti-Science position that a lot of religionists take. It's awful/evil to tell a kid that is just starting to study evolution, and is also religious, to be told "oh, you need to read about both sides" (implying evolution isn't true). McDowell did that. But there aren't "both sides", there is only one side, the side of science, that is the only thing that belongs in a science classroom.
The mental gymnastics these two have to go through are amazing. Im shocked how many people seem to buy this. Lets focus on their man and women is "natural" argument. If God is all good and made people in his image and people who are ssa dont have a choice, then did god make them unnatural? How does that make any sense. Is god all good but enjoys temping people with love that they can't have?? Doesn't seem all good and all loving to me.
@@SeanMcDowell repent or die Delete the messages sent from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 and you reject Jesus Christ herself and will automatically be thrown into the lake of fire. Make your decision now, God is watching you. Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing is now in THE GREAT TRIBULATION. Malachi 3:8 is talking to the thieving church leaders!!! It is prophetic instruction for them to repent and God will end Covid. Fake ministers know every time they collect money for ministering they kill more people with Covid and they do it anyhow! Luke 10:7 says the only wages for ministering are eating and drinking whatever you are given. Do you understand the fake ministers KNOW they lie and they do it on purpose to steal your money? That's also fraud. When the fake church leaders are arrested for fraud, they chose it. Transgender is when a person is born with a gender opposite the sex characteristics normally associated with that gender. 🏳️🌈 Mathew 19:12 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender. 🏳️🌈 Eunuchs made that way by others were abused in some way and something inside of them blocks off a certain type of body but it doesn't happen to everyone that is abused. 🏳️🌈 Those that choose to live like Eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex-characteristics but opposite in regards to gender. Notice, it states God PREFERS for people to be in LGBT relationships. God created them male and female, determined by gender, located in the brain. I am Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6. In Deuteronomy, it states nobody was castrated back then. But, that is what God wanted people to think so they wouldnt take it out of the Bible. As Elijah, any discrepancies in the Bible are ultimately decided by me. I can't prove I am Elijah, but people keep telling me I'm about to be announced to the world. My destiny is to usher in the Messiah! Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing, selling anything at all using the gospel, or teaching same-sex marriage is a sin CHOOSES to die with the wicked. Lev, Corinth, and Timothy were translated wrong on purpose by Billy Graham. The real translation is "men shall not lie with young boys" and the German version of the Bible actually says "men who molest boys." Romans is not referring to Eunuchs where on partner is transgender. In fact, God is the one that did it on purpose because they were trying to procreate during orgies. Sodom and gem. was about rape and had nothing to do with marriage of any kind. Anyone that rejects the comments from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 rejects Jesus Christ Herself and that means they CHOOSE to die with the wicked. This is not a threat. Ezekiel 33 says if you don't warn people of their wicked ways and they die in their sins then God will hold you accountable for their deaths. But once you warn them, if they don't repent and die in their sins, their deaths are now on them. Anyone that teaches anything other than this chooses to die w the wicked. That means all people that choose to continue to teach same-sex marriage is a sin when it is NOT (God PREFERS it) will die with the wicked by their own choice and not be here to walk the planet with Jesus. Anyone that denies this message is now in the GREAT TRIBULATION and they will begin to suffer tremendously until they either repent or it's too late and they die. It's their choice . . . Love, 🏳️🌈 ELIJAH THE LESBIAN 🏳️🌈 Remember, Malachi 2 proves Malachi 3:8-12 is prophetic instruction for the thieving church leaders to repent....
Yes please learn and help your friends. Gay people feel utterly rejected and not good enough to be loved by God. Not because of what the Bible says. But by the way Christians reject them.
Gosh, this is a good discussion. I've been thinking about Jude v3&4. When I became a believer, God delivered to me the gospel and its the responsibility of each individual Christian to take on the responsibility to maintain and content for The Faith. The organizations that challenge the church seek to change the institution and the teaching/preaching and leadership structure of the institution (like the SBC or Presbyterians or Roman Catholic church) but we can let those institutions fall (regrettably) but it doesnt change that the responsibility for orthodoxy is laid on the individual Christian to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, seeking to serve and please God regardless of the social context. The institution of the Church has less Authority than the apostolic witness found in the New Testament. All institutions can fall and yet the power of salvation is not lost as long as one believing Christian, who has fully submitted to Christ remains on this Earth. Here is where I would quote Romans 12:1-2 along with Jude v3&4, Philippians 2:3-13, Colossians 2:6-7, Romans 14:22 and Revelation 14:12
The problem is that for the most part, christians have it all wrong. Most christians I've met are so unchristian. Feed the poor? They rail against immigrants. "If you want to be complete, sell all your possessions and give to the poor", how many christians do that? None that I know of.
@@hongotedesco8931 Whatever your definition of Christian is - is filtered through 'DOism". Why did Jesus say sell everything and give it to the poor? It wasnt a statement about the poor, it was a statement about the individual's heart. Jesus said it in a context, which you have removed it from to make a point that actually ignores what that scripture passage means. If the Christians you know (or not) are merely just doing what you think are 'christian' things - that doesnt mean anything. A Christian is first a person who has believed and is loyal to Jesus Christ. Its not if you sell everything and give it to the poor.
@@TheLookingGlassAU Ok, sure, my pulling out the "give to the poor quote" was probably not the best thing to do. I understand there's quite a debate as to what this means (your interpretation is just one). But in general, my experience, is that evangelical christians are unkind and unloving. I've seen families break up because a child doesn't want to adopt the zealotry of the parents. Or forget it when a child is gay (they try this "conversion therapy" nonsense, eeewww). And they treat women unkindly when protesting at abortion clinics. Just not nice people.
@@hongotedesco8931 just because their are dirty, torn, crumpled and counterfeit banknotes out there it doesn't mean you refuse to use them. Obsession over some Christian's behavior and making that a claim on all works both ways. You're just picking the negative side of that coin. If you meet one genuine kind Christian, you are logic bound to change your mind.
@@TheLookingGlassAU Well sure, the whole "painting EVERYBODY with the same brush" is of course flawed. Of course there are kind and loving christians. But what's the whole point of this video? It's essentially trying to say "how do we tell people that they're bad in a nice way?". That to me is awful, gays are not bad at all, it's just this religious inertia that's deciding they're bad....and that is unkind/unloving.
i don't agree with Dr. Sean McDowell on the abortion thing but thats something i can understand as a difference of opinion from a different moral standpoint. like i can understand antiabortion reasoning. what i guess i don't really understand is the anti-gay thing from a moral stand point. like i get that the elitist liberal lgpqbslmnop crap is stupid and am right there with you all on that but where i disagree is when you all just start saying that "normal gays or normal trans people who were naturally born that way are wrong", then i disagree cause that just feels wrong. like if they're just naturally born that way how do you know what gods point is besides from the bible? like if you don't believe the bible is reliable? or at least not reliable enough to condemn your fellow brothers for?
Thank you for your candor here. I often feel the same. The people hear, "Deal with your vice" so often from a church that has an incredible spectrum built around tolerance. Evangelicals can look incredibly liberal compared to Amish, and others - and then criticize other, more tolerant types. It does seem odd, to me. Personally, I think there is grace, understanding, etc for every color on that flag. I do not feel so for abortion, as a matter of consistency. Either every life is weighted equally, or none truly matter. I do understand that this allows for some quandary in certain situations - but not a vast majority.
Scientists and doctors have not discovered a gay gene...meaning that there's no body born gay. There's no body born transgender either. People usually confuse transgender with intersex. Intersex are those who were born either with both genitals or none. So nothing for you to disagree with I suppose? :)
@@michaeljmeyer3 yeah 100% dude! like i don't personally agree with anti-abortion laws but i totally understand the moral argument around that. but like the gay thing? like maybe i would understand it better if i was gay but i'm not gay i'm straight af so like it just doesn't seem right to judge gay people. like i've just came back around to being christian and have decided instead of tryna believe the entire bible all at once i'm just going to take it one verse at a time. and its weird cause i read the bible and very little of it has anything do with the gays but when i listen to christians preach about christianity it gives the impression that like the entire bible was based around whether or not its wrong to be gay. the real issue seems to be if the entire bible is true or not and i don't think it is. doesn't seem to be 100% true otherwise we would know i think. just the fact that we don't 100% know for sure its true is reason to doubt i think. but like that doesn't mean we should throw out the whole bible either imo. anyway thanks for leaving an interesting comment! not a lotta those around here lol. peace dude!
Some ppl are natural liars. Some are naturally prone to porn. Some are naturally skeptic. Natural tendencies are not necessarily a sign of goodness. I have sexual sin in my past and had to repent and actively fight it.
This whole thing is so stupid. God designed the male body to experience greater pleasure through gay relations. Marriage isn't eternal anyway, it gets dissolved in the age to come so God obviously doesn't care too much about who bangs who.
None of the normal arguments could convince me that God's grace would not cover homosexuality that was loving and monogamous. Now, I could go through some of the many arguments about this, ranging from how the first and most important commandment is not broken, how a homosexual person living in a heterosexual relationship often does more damage to self and persons surrounding this relationship (and not in the obvious ways of direct emotional and abuse damage, but indirectly through self hatred and subliminal attraction and betrayal, etc.), and even that God did actually create man to be able experience pleasure with man in a way that one cannot in heterosexual sex, among many others, but these are all moot. I had resolved all the inner conflict on the matter and felt no guilt about same sex attraction or involvement. What eventually changed this for me was when I discovered that the Hebrew word for "he" - הוא and "she" - היא contain the letter associated with God - aleph. Should you remove this letter and combine the two, you have the most holy name of God! This means that a godly man and woman together can manifest godliness, but a man and a man cannot. Also, the term used by Paul, which is not a word in general use to denote same sex relations, but literally means "man bedder" is the best possible translation of the Hebrew term used in the old Testament prohibition of this. In other words, he, being highly educated in these matters and language, did not just create a new word to confuse the matter, he was directly referencing the old Testament prohibition. I'm now at the point that, should God himself appear to me and tell me that it is OK, I would not return to this practice, just in case I was delusional and might offend God by this. It is not an easy matter, and I think churches have the obligation to have better answers for people struggling with same sex attraction. Particularly because there are as many pitfalls in abstaining and/or living a heterosexual life while having such attraction that can lead to "missing the mark" (sin). Perhaps we do not talk about the reality of sin and temptation enough...
How honest and thoughtful this comment is. I have had my own struggles with wanting to follow temptation into sin, and there was a point when I justified my behavior on the grounds that no one was getting hurt. There does need to be more discussion and support for those who have created a life of habitual sin and want freedom from that. I am astounded by God’s Grace concerning my own life. I’m glad His mercies are new every morning.
@@angelvirgilio7489 The first mistake we make is "owning" our sin, and that with pride... Does a cleptomaniac say, "I'm a thief and proud of it. Tomorrow we're having thief pride day and expect everyone to join in and celebrate our right to be ourselves"? Of course not! I no longer identify as homosexual. I'm tempted in same sex attraction at times, but temptation is to be resisted and overcome. How long until LGBTQIA2+ adds a P for paedophilia? Is their temptation legitimate and OK too? Of course not. Let every man deal with their sin and work out their salvation with fear and trembling before God.
I just want to put this out there as a Christian with mostly conservative views. I am so disappointed by so many of these comments. People are judgmental and to be honest flat out cringe. It's totally fair if you do not take an affirming view, but the way you act and speak about it is so repulsive to gay people that they would never feel comfortable talking to you. If you don't see a problem with that and I would suggest remembering Colossians four verse five through six. If what you say instantly make somebody feel shame and unsafe your approach is flawed. When Jesus encountered people he disagreed with, even when he corrected their behavior they were not repulsed by the way he treated them but drawn to him. You don't need to compromise your beliefs but you do need to represent the character of Jesus no matter what that belief is.
Thanks for sharing. Do you have an issue with the way we tried to make our case in the discussion itself? I’m always open for feedback because I am to be biblical and respectful.
@@SeanMcDowell I appreciate your critique Jeremiah, and I can accept that you personally might not be affirming. As far as your content and delivery Sean, I think you do as well as possible to be kind, measured, and open. It’s the constant return to the topic that has become the problem, and while it may bring you viewers and likes, it also brings a spirit of rebuke, anger, online bickering, and partisan fighting (as reflected in many of the comments that Jeremiah Leggett finds disappointing, maybe mine included). I don't want Biola to be known as the Corinthian ‘ringing gong or clanging cymbal’ on this topic. Even if you have love, you can still bang that loud thing over and over and over. It can produce hurtfulness, shame, condemnation... and ringing ears. Can Biola be a safe space for someone struggling to figure things out if this constant drumbeat comes from one of its most vocal professors? Or are you actively trying your best to steer anyone with ANY personal sexual conflict or confusion so far from the University that they don’t dare apply? If that is your goal, I can actually respect that, as long as you are honest about it. But think of the people of the past, whose faith was shaped at Biola, even in the midst of personal sexual struggle, because no one was so loud and firm and unrelenting about homosexuality. So if you want to be biblical and respectful, in my opinion, just please stop already on the LGBTQ+ issue. The Bible mentions it a few times, Jesus none, and if you get canonized you will have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Sean devoted to one issue: homosexuality. You have a huge backlog on the subject, let that speak and please let it go. -Gregory Michael Hernandez, Biola Class of 1999.
Hmmm... Jesus called the religious leaders vipers, corpses, tombs, other not so nice things. He constantly directly called out sin and immediately called them to repentance. He flogged those in the temple. Please don't have the view of Jesus as a teddy bear. Loving? yes. Also just, righteous, and holy. If, like Christ, our goal in engaging others is a focus on truth and repentance, then we follow well. Paul gave us a great template - "I am the chief of sinners.", now let me tell you about who rescued me.
Delete the messages sent from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 and you reject Jesus Christ herself and will automatically be thrown into the lake of fire. Make your decision now, God is watching you. Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing is now in THE GREAT TRIBULATION. Malachi 3:8 is talking to the thieving church leaders!!! It is prophetic instruction for them to repent and God will end Covid. Fake ministers know every time they collect money for ministering they kill more people with Covid and they do it anyhow! Luke 10:7 says the only wages for ministering are eating and drinking whatever you are given. Do you understand the fake ministers KNOW they lie and they do it on purpose to steal your money? That's also fraud. When the fake church leaders are arrested for fraud, they chose it. Transgender is when a person is born with a gender opposite the sex characteristics normally associated with that gender. 🏳️🌈 Mathew 19:12 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender. 🏳️🌈 Eunuchs made that way by others were abused in some way and something inside of them blocks off a certain type of body but it doesn't happen to everyone that is abused. 🏳️🌈 Those that choose to live like Eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex-characteristics but opposite in regards to gender. Notice, it states God PREFERS for people to be in LGBT relationships. God created them male and female, determined by gender, located in the brain. I am Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6. In Deuteronomy, it states nobody was castrated back then. But, that is what God wanted people to think so they wouldnt take it out of the Bible. As Elijah, any discrepancies in the Bible are ultimately decided by me. I can't prove I am Elijah, but people keep telling me I'm about to be announced to the world. My destiny is to usher in the Messiah! Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing, selling anything at all using the gospel, or teaching same-sex marriage is a sin CHOOSES to die with the wicked. Lev, Corinth, and Timothy were translated wrong on purpose by Billy Graham. The real translation is "men shall not lie with young boys" and the German version of the Bible actually says "men who molest boys." Romans is not referring to Eunuchs where on partner is transgender. In fact, God is the one that did it on purpose because they were trying to procreate during orgies. Sodom and gem. was about rape and had nothing to do with marriage of any kind. Anyone that rejects the comments from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 rejects Jesus Christ Herself and that means they CHOOSE to die with the wicked. This is not a threat. Ezekiel 33 says if you don't warn people of their wicked ways and they die in their sins then God will hold you accountable for their deaths. But once you warn them, if they don't repent and die in their sins, their deaths are now on them. Anyone that teaches anything other than this chooses to die w the wicked. That means all people that choose to continue to teach same-sex marriage is a sin when it is NOT (God PREFERS it) will die with the wicked by their own choice and not be here to walk the planet with Jesus. Anyone that denies this message is now in the GREAT TRIBULATION and they will begin to suffer tremendously until they either repent or it's too late and they die. It's their choice . . . Love, 🏳️🌈 ELIJAH THE LESBIAN 🏳️🌈 Remember, Malachi 2 proves Malachi 3:8-12 is prophetic instruction for the thieving church leaders to repent....
In Romans one its quite clear that God has designed and given 'man' to woman, and also designed and given 'woman' to man for the purpose of the two becoming one flesh, two different unifying into one same - like the trinity although there its 3 different persons but one God. Desires or preferences or even beliefs that go against that do not render that basic truth as untrue. Marriage in the bible is a social union forming the foundation of community through having children, but modern marriage is redefined as merely a sexual union which doesnt necessarily include children. In the Bible marriages were a contract that was arranged, desire/love was not the primary factor. But i find in modern western culture personal desire and personal feelings of love guide pretty much all decisions, whereas the Bible teaches when all your decisions are guided by your own feelings - you are going to betray Christ because He is seeking your obedience, not your agreement on what is good. Part of faith in Christ is to submit as give Him the authority to correct you on what you think is good and evil.
Dude, don't pay so much attention to what a bunch of iron age men wrote 2k years ago. Is Christ really seeking my obedience? No, christ is just an invention. Get over that nonsense for the love of god.
I don't believe a prophet would be at all as careful as you both have been. If something is a sin then renounce it. If something is biblically vile then declare it. It is written in Psalm 12, "the wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored amount men"....You almost sound like God owes Sodom and Gemorha an apology.
Also, is the sin in question, clearly stated in the Bible? If it is, there is no grounds to ignore it. We make changes for God and not the other way around.
Dear Sean McDowell, We were classmates one year apart: I attended Biola University starting in 1995 and graduated in 1999. I think you were in Emerson Hall when I was across the way in Horton Hall. I see that you have delayed this talk with Scott Rae until next week, but I ask that you cancel it completely. According to my count on your TH-cam channel, you have already made your views known about this subject 14 times since January 2020. You do not need to drill it home for a 15th time. Here are some common topics you have visited since January 2020: Homosexuality (14 times) Critical Race Theory (6 times) Cancel Culture (5 times) Masturbation and Sexual Purity (4 times) Porn (6 times) Abortion (5 times) For someone who claims to be defending “historical, Biblical Christianity”, your favorite political topics are more inline with our 45th President and American Evangelicalism. Your constant drumbeat against homosexuality sounds like 21st century witch trials. You could try some new material that focuses on defending the faith from challenges WITHIN your own American Evangelical tradition, such as “Trump and Evangelicals: an Unholy Alliance?” or “Q’Anon: Friend or Foe for the Christian?” or “Would Jesus Get the Vaccine?” or “Was the Insurrection divinely inspired?” or just discuss the recent L.A. Times article titled, “CRT, Trumpism and doubt roil Biola University. Is this the future of evangelical Christianity?”. But I suspect there is a reason you haven’t devoted one single episode to any of those topics. I'm sure there is money to be made by consistently promoting a Gospel that firmly cements American Evangelicalism and right wing politics, and constantly attacks left wing / progressive versions of Christianity. Is this the reason your TH-cam channel ramped up content in early 2020? Recently, Christian Preacher Dillon Awes made news for preaching from the pulpit that gays “Should be lined up against the wall and shot in the back of the head. That’s what God teaches. That’s what the Bible says.” I assume that you would condemn going that far, but your preoccupation and obsessive criticism of an issue that never crossed the lips of Jesus comes across as more than unChristlike: it comes across as a personal vendetta. You come across as particularly disgusted by homosexuality, and you’ve devoted twice as much time to the issue than any other hot cultural topic. Please cancel this talk. There are many students at Biola for whom sexuality is a deeply sensitive, personal, traumatic, or conflicted issue. Your obsession with the topic comes across as theological bullying, in my opinion. Sincerely, Gregory Michael Hernandez
First thing: You've made many accusations on Sean's character with no evidence except a number "14 times". You've accused him of (1) doing this for money (2) being "right wing" (which has become a slur to conveniently broad brush the messenger in listeners' minds so they dont listen to what is being said) (3) being "preoccupied" and "obsessed" (4) having a "personal vendetta" (5) as being "particularly disgusted by homosexuality" and (6) of "bullying". And your reasoning for this... is because "you've devoted twice as much time to this issue than any other hot cultural topic". Maybe that's evidence for #3 "Preoccupied" and "obsessed", but that's no evidence at all for the others...the others are dependent on the content of what he said and HOW he said it. I've been watching Sean for a while, and he's more gracious than even some of his own viewers are and wish him to be. There are so many of his "conversation for clarity...this is not a debate" style interviews a lot of his viewers felt he couldve pushed back more instead of just allowing his guests to speak. Second thing: I actually am interested in hearing Sean's take on your suggested topics for discussion, but it's possible to state a desire for other topics without reading into someone's character your assumption of why they've talked about "x" and not about "y".
@@machellovelivelife658 Hi Machel, I can appreciate your concern with my comments. To be clear, I did not accuse him of doing this for the money, nor did I accuse him of being right wing. I said I'm sure there is money to be made in that realm, and then I asked an open ended question: "Is this the reason your TH-cam channel ramped up content in early 2020?". I think it's a fair question: he has 109k subscribers and he seems to be really ramping up content that coincides with the right wing political agenda. I did however suggest that he is preoccupied and obsessed with the topic of homosexuality. That's my opinion, and it's also just my opinion that (from an outside perspective) his channel comes across as theological bullying, and therefore he comes across as particularly disgusted by homosexuality. Maybe that's not fair, and I can concede that Sean tries hard to be kind and caring and fair. You know, as an artist, I've only been censored once, and that was on the campus of Biola University a few years back. You could say I got "cancelled". I displayed an artwork at the center of campus that featured the ten commandments rewritten for a contemporary context. The President and Provost's office got inundated by phone calls, complaints from students and faculty. After a nice conversation with the President and Provost, I agreed to physically erase all the commandments off my artwork. It was either that, or remove the art completely. For reasons I won't explain here, Biola was not able to host an alternative theological viewpoint on campus. In the same vein, I am glad you can appreciate my suggestions for future topics by Sean McDowell. I think it would be difficult for him to pull off.
@@exilechildren Appreciate your clarification and tone. You've piqued my interest in your "rewritten for a contemporary context", not so much Biola's reasons but what the rewritten version actually said. Do you have that posted somewhere on social, how those commandments would read or want to share here? Have a Good Day
@@machellovelivelife658 Thanks Machel. As I explained to Biola's President and the Provost, my rewritten commandments aren't trying to put words in God's mouth, nor change the Word of God: they merely follow in the Jewish tradition of provocation, fresh vision. This is what Jesus did when he said 'You've heard it said do not murder, but I say when you hate...that is murder..." (If people really took Jesus seriously and literally, Sean wouldn't have to put out so much content about porn and masturbation, because all his male followers would be walking around missing two hands!) Like Walter Brueggemann says, "Biblical authority" is not pointing and saying there it is, do that. The Bible authorizes new communities. It authorizes resistance to empire and it authorizes expanding the walls of division that keep certain people outside of the social order of acceptability. So I got censored/cancelled because I mention abortion and homosexuality. Biola couldn't even let my temporary artwork stay on campus with one of those "This does not express the views of the University..." They are here if you would like to see them: gmhstudio.com/section/502239-Ten-Commandments-2017.html You have a good day too Machel.
The patriarch is intended to be head of the house, God will have a speaking relationship with one member who will instruct the others. However, we see Mary of Bethany who will receive the good part. And we see women who teach. Grace is dispensed in portions. The more enlightened teach the less enlightened. Salvation comes first. Righteousness can come after. In receiving this grace, the will of God supercedes inappropriate desires. Righteousness is required to participate in church ministries. (Easily said, but if we were to require righteousness, half or more of the church is eliminated.)
I am gay and I have been married to my husband for almost 10 years. None of us have the right to judge who we can marry. Everyone will be welcomed around the table.
Your claim that no one has the right to judge whom one marries rests on the premises that no one has the right to define marriage and no one has the right to think for themselves. It you are consistent, you must be accepting of bestiality, pedophilic marriage, and incestuous marriage. It’s really a totalitarian claim. Do you really mean it the way it comes across?
32:50 the better question would be "why isn't it viewed the same as pedophilia or beastiality?". Since those two are about who/what you are allowed to love.
Can someone help me understand why these gentleman keep using the exact same deceptive language that the secular, Christ-rejecting world uses in defining certain issues? For example, there is the reference to "transgender affirming", "patriarchy", "same-sex attraction" etc... they are watering down what are clearly-defined boundaries according to Scripture. Believers who is watching this, I ask you to be very careful in what you are watching and whether this aligns with the tone of Scripture. There is a lack in confidence (maybe due to fear) in Scripture in this video.
Is this question about “inclusiveness” in regards to the government under the Constitution as it is right now? Or is about the Christian Protestant Church? All too often we don’t understand or are ignorant of the difference. Under the Law in the USA, I must often tolerate something that I would not or will not within my faith or my personal membership in the church.
I really like and support the fact that the Bible and God also support Slavery, rape, the eating of sushi, wearing mixed fibers (basically all modern clothing), men only being able to wear short hair, and women not being allowed to be in positions of responsibility or power. Fantastic stuff! If the Bible is so true, why did God say this stuff? It's always baffled me how people can support this. God undeniably said this! There is no way around it! He even gave the specifics on the extent to which you could beat your slaves! I find it funny how quick God is to judge others when his own methods are selfish, cruel, imperfect, unjust, immoral, and shockingly wrong. Either the Bible is imperfect, or God is a morally corrupt being not worthy of worship. I don't see any way to justify those things. This is easily extended to the topic of homosexuality as well. Why did God create animals that participate in homosexual acts? Why is it only 'natural' in animals but not in humans? (Look up giraffes! They are literally the most gay thing on this planet) I think it also calls into question why God would create a function in the human brain that even has this ability. Why curse an entire group of people with not being able to be married in his eyes? Why block them from the love of others? If God made the human brain: Why did he create a function so horribly alienating? I also noticed in the video that "ancient civilizations didn't have a form of birth control so homosexuality is the only act that doesn't result in procreation" which is... just so laughable it's actually sad. Ancient Rome made an entire species of plant go extinct because it was such an effective form of birth control. That and the whole idea that "Sex is all about making babies" is just wrong. Gay people aren't the only ones who participate in oral sex. Straight couples have sex for fun all the time. Don't lie. It's true. The Catholics even have a whole schedule they developed so that they could have sex for fun under "God's natural guidance" (Basically they just follow a woman's cycle to avoid having children when they don't want to) It's insulting. That and the whole stereotype of gay people "only doing it for sex" is absurd as well! Did you get married only for sex? Is that really the only thing you value in your wife/husband? Really? I would argue that Gay people even value their relationships more because they get so much hateful crap for simply loving someone. You are probably asking: "So if it's not about sex why are you even gay?" Simple. For the same reason you are straight and love your husband/wife. Looks, personality, goals, mannerisms, the way they think about things etc etc etc. In fact, I would turn the question around: If you think it's so easy to just want to fall in love with someone, why not try being gay for 5 minutes? Come on! If you think we can do it, show us how! Because trust me, I've tried. I hated myself from the age of 12-17. Every day I tried desperately to make myself a straight guy and it hurt more than you can possibly imagine to attempt and fix myself alone. Because I knew that if my parents found out, I would be disowned and cut off from my 6 younger siblings who like their parents are Creationists who think that being gay means being a messed up, morally black, viper who only seeks to corrupt and destroy the stuff that perfectly whole straight people have. I'm 18 right now and my parents still don't know. I love my parents and younger siblings a ton. I think a lot of Christians forget that there are more gay people around them than they expect and that whether you know it or not: There are almost definitely people in your life right now who are just as alone as I am. People who are waiting to be able to support themselves enough so that they can safely distance themselves from the people they love and cherish so that at least their family won't hate them or condemn them to hell. I think the biggest myth of all is that gay people want to indoctrinate kids. As a gay guy, if you take away one thing above all others from reading this, please understand: I would never wish homosexuality on anyone. Ever. I hate it, even now that I have accepted who I am. I would rather die than pass such a self-loathing, lonely, and miserable existence onto anyone. In this day and age, it is a curse. Anyone who says otherwise is in an extraordinarily blessed position or is lying to themselves. Maybe one day I will feel better about it, but it will never be worth the agony and waste of time that it took to get to whatever happiness I may find in the future. The only thing that gay people are looking for as far as kids go is to find the younger people who know they are gay so that they can educate them and show them that they don't have to be bitter, or lonely, or morally corrupt, or that they are not worthy of love. It is a really slippery slope when a person is cut off from family. Gay people know that more than anyone and I think that's why there are a good amount of gay people who struggle with committed relationships. Because those people DO exist, especially in Christian households. And unlike straight people, there are no parents to talk to about this. No straight Creationist couple is going to understand their gay child's struggle. Unless they don't hold to biblical literalism it can be so hurtful to hear family members talk like they do. My own mother has unknowingly hurt me many times when she has talked about how demented gay people are. How sick, unnatural, and cursed I AM and how I am going to hell. She doesn't know that I am gay. Because people don't realize that there isn't a difference. None. I'm a person with feelings, hopes, and dreams too. I know I started this long excapade with sarcasm, but I do hope whoever has taken the time to read this has a good day and that hopefully at least a bit of my long rant has reached you.
Yes, "the Gospel welcomes everyone regardless of where they've been"...but it also assumes that you won't keep going down that road of sin, which I think is where the affirming side of the house gets it wrong. We are called to repent (turn away) from our sin. I think those that affirm would agree with that statement, but the problem then comes in when you are forced to deal with the reality that certain lifestyles are sinful. They wouldn't see the lifestyle as sinful, thus no need for repentance, thus they believe in a God that condones unrepentant sin.
27:06 this is a particularly bad argument from the pro-LGTV crowd. There's exactly *one* verse in the Bible that stops me from doing what I wanna do (Matt. 5:28). But am I gonna go and ignore the words of Jesus just because there are 22999 other verses that don't say this?
Right or wrong why so much energy, i mean tons of energy spent on this subject? There are so many issues hirer on the priority list. Possession of wealth as stated.....and other issues that affect everyones lives on a daily basis.
You're right .There's another homophobic right-wing reformed lesbian , Rosaria Butterfield , who garners vast support through her addresses and interviews on youtube . She is an academic , a professor of 19th century English Literature , and a self proclaimed " born again Chrtistian " . All she ever rants about on these public addresses and interviews is the severe moral depravity of the entire LBGTQ community and how they should , like her , renounce that culture or otherwise burn in hell interminably . She invariably repeats the same ridiculously alarmist mantra of " The LBGTQ ethos is the reigning idol of today " As a Christian , my response to her would be , " You're delusional , the reigning idol of today is the same as it always has been since the fall ( however one might want to interpret that ) , and that is self-centredness and egoism which are the root cause of nearly all of humanities travails . We seek power , prestige and prosperity in our insatiable quest for self aggrandizement , and this usually involves victimizing our fellow beings . Endemic poverty , internecine warfare , tyranny ,etc , usually ensue from these selfish drives , and none of those resultant social scourges have anything to do with the LBGTQ culture " I just don't get it how some of these evangelicals are obbsessed with a misconceived exaggeration of the moral impropriety and social detriment of unconventional sexuality , and virtually ignore the real sinful cause of most of humankind's adversity and suffering ---self- centredness , whether personal , tribal , ethnic , or nationalistic , etc.
Yesterday I wrote a moderately expansive reply to your comment which in essence was supportive of your opinion above , but critical of some evangelists who crusade against the LGBTQ culture. Just now I discovered that it had been erased . My deleted comment was expressed respectfully without any vulgarity or slander . What a cowardly and censorious act ! I'm presuming that those responsible for this deletion are the party that established and now maintain this particular youtube channel , Sean McDowell . If though , I'm wrong about this presumption , I apologize .
Watched until 28 minutes, so sorry if I missed anything. As a gay atheist, I love Sean's way of approaching the topic. Trying to see pro-LGBT arguments in their best light, but also showing that pro-LGBT arguments just don't really allign with the Bible. I love christianity, I love studying it. But it's really simple. Christianity is homophobic, simple is that. You can't be a good christian and be gay. You have to choose. Either sacrifise that "thing that makes us human" "that little thing called love" or sacrifise christianity. But you can't do both. And I feel very sorry for the gay christians who are trying to do all kinds of mental theological gymnastics to talk themselves out of this. Don't bother converting me. I DO NOT need to know why you are deserving of human love and why the love that I recieve from another human being is a sin in the eyes of the Lord. I DO NOT need to know why God is angry at someone with gender dysphoria (or how some people here put it "why I have to call a man a she". Because she has gender dysphoria, look it up! It's not just her having a desire to sin. It's your God making a mistake in creating her and now she's trying to correct it.) Sorry for getting a bit passionate there. But you do not know what it's like to be LGBTQ, you just don't. Just like I do not know what it's like to be black or be a woman. So please, don't tell me how I can and can't love. That's just denying me my humanity. Imagine if I said you weren't allowed to love the other sex. Imagine if you heterosexuals were treated by both Scripture and humans like how christians treat gay people, how would that make you feel? Like you were denied a part of what makes you human. Tha'ts how it would make you feel. Anyway, Sean, keep up the good work. As long as there will be christians, I hope they'll listen to you. You're a good honest, but also loving, christian willing to have conversation with anyone in good fatih.
I am so sorry you have been made to feel less of a person. It can be characteristic of some of our churches - not God's way. You are a valuable human being 🙂
@@margaretgrosskreuz8687 God Himself says that being gay is an abomination. God Himself calls me an abomination. In the eyes of the LORD, I guess I'm a valuable human being, but I'm also an abomination. Just for sleeping with men instead of sleeping with women. Just for that simple thing.
Intellectualism whether applied to Bible, Constitution or any moral/social construct leads to the exclusion of the word “rebuke”. We can parse scripture along many lines in an effort to soften its convictions, but in the end John 3:1-21 is the main goal of all scripture. I can not justify anyone, yet scripture points to the fact that Justification is the act of being born again and God does it. The idea of intellectualizing the road to justification is a slippery slope created by relativism. God is not relative. He is the Alpha and Omega. We may not rebuke modern ideas, but what is clear through Scripture, God will. My question is always, are we softening the lines of scripture so much that we are leading folks astray?
I have no idea what you're talking about. "Intellectualism...leads to the exclusion of the word 'rebuke'". Everybody "rebukes" all the time, in all manner of philosophies and political systems and religions.
@@hongotedesco8931 To some degree you make my point. We do rebuke all the time but not from a scriptural basis. We rebuke/argue based on intellectual concepts that lead to no real rebuke, or understanding. First principals are not included in intellectualism. The way you are using the word is more 20th century arguing and not rebuking from the church/kingdom such as was considered in the first century. Thanks for the feedback.
@@harveylloyd7486 But see, I don't care if it's from a "scriptural basis", that means nothing to me as an atheist. And of course we do it based on "intellectual concepts" as that is what makes sense. And it does give us *better* understanding, way better than being shackled to nonsense written 2k years ago by unevolved people.
The underlying issue here is how to interpret the Scriptures in the light of modern science. The modern sciences of cosmology and biology have caused reinterpretation of biblical creation. The same, one may argue, is true with regard to the science of psychology and our reinterpretation of biblical sexuality.
Hey Sean, how would you respond to the fact that Paul argues from ‘nature’ in both Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Corinthians 11:14-15. But making Romans 1 a universal moral argument still applied today, whereas 1 Corinthians 11 is about men having long hair, which is more, I guess, a cultural aspect, not universally applied.
@32:00 - be considerate to explain the differences between historical "slavery" and what here in America and other more recent atrocities recognize as 'slavery'. Slavery historically and Biblically was not what we consider slavery. In fact, America practiced a form of Biblical "slavery" (actually, indentured servitude) for nearly two hundred years. What atrocities were committed was stealing people from one place and selling them to other people as laborers/possessions. Stealing people and selling people is slavery. Joseph was sold off into slavery. Not being able to pay one's debt or taxes lent to others who could pay it and the person unable was then offered a chance to work off the debt instead of having to be put in jail. Indentured servitude was encouraged and considered ethical. Today, in America, the welfare system is not ethical nor helpful to individuals, for the most part it is taken advantage of by lazy people. Lazy people don't deserve assistance - THAT'S Biblical! The world IS BETTER OFF without slavery, but the world is worse off without indentured servitude.
While I don't agree with the historic interpretations of Onan in Rabbinic literature or the writings of Augustine -- I think that it'd be worth pointing out around the 22 minute mark that the interpretation that the Bible *is* concerned with primarily procreative sex (as opposed to Onanism) when thinking about that "natural" order of things goes back almost 2000 years. That said, I think Romans is still addressing homosexual intercourse, but the notion, mentioned by Scott here, that the ancient view of "natural" sexuality has no concept of procreative intent (because there was no "contraception" at the time) associated with it is overly simplistic and is pretty easily countered by pointing back to a couple millennia of Old Testament interpretation. So would love to have heard a bit more of nuance here.
Patriarchal culture is biblical and doesn't mean that women are demeaned or mistreated within one. Sean's conversation partner here is wrong on this point.
Necessarily not necessarily the teaching that’s harmful if it’s done with love and grace and truth and dealt on the relationship and then a call to repentance. In my opinion, what is harmful is if they are deceived according to Romans one, and they’re caught up in their sin, and so they’re going to use whatever reason they can to justify their sin.
"The gospel welcomes everyone, regardless of where they have been. But the gospel doesn't AFFIRM every place they have been."@ 6:20 Well said!
It doesn't say anything of value. That's like saying "it welcomes child rapists, but hey, we don't like where they've been!". He's just trying to skate around being anti-gay, and thus his opinions should be tossed into the trash bin of hate.
@@hongotedesco8931 Actually, the whole child rapist thing is EXACTLY his point. Even a child rapist could come into the kingdom of God. But he or she would have to repent, serve time in jail, etc. The gospel certainly doesn't like where child rapists have been. And so, friend...I am not understanding your point?
I was about to make this exact same comment 😁
@@yaminatoday1151 You're right, I was fast and loose with my response. I do understand the concept of "everyone is welcome, as long as they repent, even though they've been bad", but I thought the statement was trivial, it's long been repeated, I've heard it countless times.
The bigger issue is that it lumps everybody in to this bucket of "being bad", that may not necessarily be bad, like...................homosexuals. Our morality cannot be informed by books written thousands of years ago, we need to be current, and consider our cultural evolution, and how morality has evolved over time. Consider slavery, at the time the bible was written it was perfectly fine, indeed the bible never says "Slavery is immoral! Free your slaves!", a huge moral fail.
@@hongotedesco8931 Actually, our morality CAN be informed by a book written thousands of years ago. It's simply your own opinion that it can't be.
Secondly, the bible was never written to allow evolving cultures to dictate its value. Quite the opposite. The bible is a book that is meant to GIVE evolving cultures a solid moral ground to walk on.
Speaking of slavery, the bible actually DOES speak against slavery - the kind that involves kidnapping and slave-trading - you know, American-style slavery.
Where it approves slavery is with Jews during wars, and slavery such as indentured servitude. The Bible recognizes that most humans are servants/slaves to a boss or owner (even at our jobs). In this fallen world, and because of sin, God did not eradicate servitude and certain types of slavery. But even THEN, the bible tells masters to not be harsh with their slaves and servants and commands those who follow Christ (for God cannot command the heart unwilling to obey Him) to LOVE even their own workers, servants, and slaves.
The bible never took its cues from popular culture. Nor will it. Nor should it.
I'm a conservative christian, and a bible teacher as well. I've been countered with many of the arguments that were brought up in this video. The one that I find the most amusing is when someone points out that the topic of homosexuality is only covered a handful of times in the Bible, like five or six. My rebuttal to this is the same here ... How many times does it NEED to be declared wrong by God before it's wrong? Seven? Is the bible one or two times shy of this being completely and universally wrong? How about 10 times? 20? A hundred? Maybe a thousand? What is the definitive cut off point from it just being situationally/culturally wrong at the time to being universally wrong? The fact that God destroyed a city where this 'lifestyle' was being practiced should speak volumes! The fact that the first commandment where it's specifically addressed refers to homosexuality as an Abomination in the eyes of God should also speak volumes.
Thank you for your faithful stand and defending that stance from the Word of God which is active & alive Heb.4
Yeah, that Sodom and Gomorrah story is fiction.
Um, you're right, it doesn't matter whether it's one time or more. What's wrong is wrong. Eg, when the bible advocates genocide, it just takes that one instance to declare the bible as being morally corrupt. But we can also cite the fact that the bible doesn't say "Free your slaves! Slavery is bad!" at a time when slavery was rampant. Another moral fail. Let's face it, the bible was written by men of their time....it's not god. We don't even have any evidence that god exists. So until you prove god's existence, and you prove that the words in the bible were *actually* from god, it's unconscionable to make these claims.
Amen
God destroyed a city where gang rape was being practiced.
As someone who prefers to view podcasts, I’m grateful that you posted this to TH-cam! Maybe we need a Think Biblically YT channel 🤔
Thanks for the suggestion. We’re trying to do more with both audio and video!
@mikewinger
@@SeanMcDowell would you consider yourself carnally minded because you would marry for the flesh instead of love?
@@corinamariatodea3536 Bible Thinking podcast, not Think biblically. It's another podcast, another author. 🙂
@@rocio8851 @corinamaria todea right I know about Mike’s Bible Thinker, this was from Think Biblically
We know what the Word of God says about the subject. Guiding those who want to change through deliverance & counsel is what is direly needed.
Thank you for this compassionate and truth based discussion. This is an issue of our times and as Christians we need to know how to stay grounded in truth and yet communicate that truth in a compassionate and loving way. And also to understand other views and yet think biblically. Thank you gentlemen for not backing off from these challenging subjects.
I agree, we have to be compassionate and respectful as Christians towards others, not judgemental or quick to condemn which only alienates people from the church and is contrary to Jesus teachings. That said, we should not distort the scripture or misrepresent the Gospel and God's law on this issue to accommodate sexual deviancy as accepted and normal, as though the Christian faith has changed its position as some homosexual faith teachers are now beginning to do online. We find truth in the scripture itself and people should refer to it.
I really like and support the fact that the Bible and God also support Slavery, rape, the eating of sushi, wearing mixed fibers (basically all modern clothing), men only being able to wear short hair, and women not being allowed to be in positions of responsibility or power. Fantastic stuff! If the Bible is so true, why did God say this stuff? It's always baffled me how people can support this. God undeniably said this! There is no way around it! He even gave the specifics on the extent to which you could beat your slaves! I find it funny how quick God is to judge others when his own methods are selfish, cruel, imperfect, unjust, immoral, and shockingly wrong.
Either the Bible is imperfect, or God is a morally corrupt being not worthy of worship.
I don't see any way to justify those things.
This is easily extended to the topic of homosexuality as well. Why did God create animals that participate in homosexual acts? Why is it only 'natural' in animals but not in humans? (Look up giraffes! They are literally the most gay thing on this planet)
I think it also calls into question why God would create a function in the human brain that even has this ability. Why curse an entire group of people with not being able to be married in his eyes? Why block them from the love of others? If God made the human brain: Why did he create a function so horribly alienating?
I also noticed in the video that "ancient civilizations didn't have a form of birth control so homosexuality is the only act that doesn't result in procreation" which is... just so laughable it's actually sad. Ancient Rome made an entire species of plant go extinct because it was such an effective form of birth control.
That and the whole idea that "Sex is all about making babies" is just wrong. Gay people aren't the only ones who participate in oral sex. Straight couples have sex for fun all the time. Don't lie. It's true. The Catholics even have a whole schedule they developed so that they could have sex for fun under "God's natural guidance" (Basically they just follow a woman's cycle to avoid having children when they don't want to)
It's insulting.
That and the whole stereotype of gay people "only doing it for sex" is absurd as well!
Did you get married only for sex? Is that really the only thing you value in your wife/husband? Really?
I would argue that Gay people even value their relationships more because they get so much hateful crap for simply loving someone.
You are probably asking:
"So if it's not about sex why are you even gay?"
Simple. For the same reason you are straight and love your husband/wife. Looks, personality, goals, mannerisms, the way they think about things etc etc etc.
In fact, I would turn the question around: If you think it's so easy to just want to fall in love with someone, why not try being gay for 5 minutes? Come on! If you think we can do it, show us how! Because trust me, I've tried.
I hated myself from the age of 12-17. Every day I tried desperately to make myself a straight guy and it hurt more than you can possibly imagine to attempt and fix myself alone. Because I knew that if my parents found out, I would be disowned and cut off from my 6 younger siblings who like their parents are Creationists who think that being gay means being a messed up, morally black, viper who only seeks to corrupt and destroy the stuff that perfectly whole straight people have.
I'm 18 right now and my parents still don't know. I love my parents and younger siblings a ton.
I think a lot of Christians forget that there are more gay people around them than they expect and that whether you know it or not: There are almost definitely people in your life right now who are just as alone as I am. People who are waiting to be able to support themselves enough so that they can safely distance themselves from the people they love and cherish so that at least their family won't hate them or condemn them to hell.
I think the biggest myth of all is that gay people want to indoctrinate kids.
As a gay guy, if you take away one thing above all others from reading this, please understand: I would never wish homosexuality on anyone. Ever. I hate it, even now that I have accepted who I am. I would rather die than pass such a self-loathing, lonely, and miserable existence onto anyone.
In this day and age, it is a curse. Anyone who says otherwise is in an extraordinarily blessed position or is lying to themselves. Maybe one day I will feel better about it, but it will never be worth the agony and waste of time that it took to get to whatever happiness I may find in the future.
The only thing that gay people are looking for as far as kids go is to find the younger people who know they are gay so that they can educate them and show them that they don't have to be bitter, or lonely, or morally corrupt, or that they are not worthy of love. It is a really slippery slope when a person is cut off from family. Gay people know that more than anyone and I think that's why there are a good amount of gay people who struggle with committed relationships.
Because those people DO exist, especially in Christian households. And unlike straight people, there are no parents to talk to about this. No straight Creationist couple is going to understand their gay child's struggle. Unless they don't hold to biblical literalism it can be so hurtful to hear family members talk like they do.
My own mother has unknowingly hurt me many times when she has talked about how demented gay people are. How sick, unnatural, and cursed I AM and how I am going to hell.
She doesn't know that I am gay. Because people don't realize that there isn't a difference. None. I'm a person with feelings, hopes, and dreams too.
I know I started this long excapade with sarcasm, but I do hope whoever has taken the time to read this has a good day and that hopefully at least a bit of my long rant has reached you.
Sean makes an important point 'Not being loving is not sharing the biblical truth'
You can be quite loving, w/o needing any kind of bible to back it up. Just do it.
@@hongotedesco8931 You can't love with out God. Our virtue and love grow as we strive towards Christ
@@huskydragon2000 Oh you absolutely can. In particular since god is an invention. Everything "we know" about god was just invented by ancient men. There are tribes in the amazon that live quite comfortably w/o the notion of god, much less this christ fella.....completely unnecessary.
@@hongotedesco8931 what's your definition of love?
@@hongotedesco8931 One day, you’ll find out how wrong you are about God, my friend. In the meantime, I will grieve for you and for everyone who thinks as you do - it is incredibly tragic.
Currently wrestling with my view on this if I’m going to be honest. This is a very important conversation. Thanks for having it.
I was wrestling with this too….
And so far, what’s helped me stand is …”if participating in homosexual acts /marriage is God ordained, then where is that example in the Bible?”
There isn’t an example of god ordained, homosexual marriage in the Bible. Every example I’ve seen is between man and woman
@@lyrictroy2466 Not sure if that's the standard you want to use. Lot's daughters got him drunk so they could get impregnated by him, and God said nothing against them. Also King David had 8 wives, and his son Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines, and God said nothing against them for that.
@@evulnater I mean, besides it saying not to engage in homosexual acts /adultery/ fornication /incest etc, that’s all I have to go off of. I can’t preach or agree that homosexual acts aren’t sinful when in each scenario, it is
dont listen to these guys. this old guy doesnt even know that when he has sex with his wife for pleasure and not to make a baby, he's committing sin. all sex is not for making a baby between straight people. but thats not convenient for him, clearly. anyway the term that is translated (newly, since society has stopped its several century long murdering of gay people) as "men in bed with other men", according to linguists may also mean "prostitution". so there is a very good possibility that these types are not only driving people from Christ based on a lie, but theyre also preventing us from the sanctity of marriage, plunging us into premarittal sex which is sin. read your bible, accept christ as your savior, do as Jesus and the 10 commandments tell you, and ull be fine. these verses are anything but clear about homosexuality. on the contrary. and they are translated many times over. God doesnt make mistakes. Some people choose to be gay. they shouldnt. some people are gay b/c that is how God biologically wired them. that is as much of a sin as being autistic or bipolar. pray and ask
@@lyrictroy2466 in which scenario? Fun fact - the Bible doesn't forbid incest between a father and his daughter. Does that mean it's okay?
Homosexuality is not in the Bible as the whole concept was completely unfamiliar to people in these times.
It's funny when people think that the Bible is "clear on that matter" when it absolutely isn't.
Question: do you eat kosher? If not, why not? The apostles clearly decided that gentile Christians should eat kosher.
Truth and love go together. Having only truth makes you a bigot and having only love makes you a progressive. Marrying them together is impossible with our human strength. Only Christ can show us that way.
Christ said go and sin no more. He told her the hard truth because He loved her. He told the Pharisee the hard truth as well. Two different responses to the same living truth
This is such a good conversation between two believers. I pray many listeners will get enlightened.
A conversation I think more of us should have is one in which we learn how to engage both those who are connecting with the church without any intention to follow Christ, and those who are within the church and outright working against it.
I often think of Jesus with Judas; how He knew when He chose him that he would betray Him. Judas did not only enjoy a close relationship with Jesus, and a large responsibility for daily care (he was in charge of the purse of Jesus’ ministry); Judas was also given the authority to heal the sick, cast out demons, preach the gospel, and baptize.
I’ve met some believers who seem very quick to write people off if they feel they are not sincere or only connecting with the church to meet their physical needs (Jesus fed the crowds and even called them on their motivation for following Him; yet He still fed them).
Have any of you had experiences with people who “used” the church, but were not truly seeking Christ? I understand that God is the only one who ultimately knows a person’s heart; I’m talking about simply based on the persons words and actions, and our limited perspective of them.
That is interesting, thanks. perhaps it is a case of "giving people enough rope to hang themselves"? after a time period has passed, God gives them over to the true state of their heart
I have a muay thai classmate who's a 16 year old atheist. And his girlfriend used to be catholic. One reason she told me she left the church is that it was "too rigid". When I asked her if by "rigid" she meant the Christian sexual ethics she nodded.
She showed she was never a believer, her idol is her own desires deep down.
This is not exactly the type of ppl you described but I guess is close enough
How about this: How about forget the church, forget the bible....after all, it's a fact that thousands of religions/gods have been invented by humans over the millennia. Do you believe Muhammad had regular conversations with the archangel Gabriel? Yeah..... How about just being good and kind? Just for its own sake, not to satisfy some imaginary being?
@@hongotedesco8931 Tell me everything you believe to be “good”. Tell me why what you think is “good” is good?
Absolutely! It seems people come to church for every reason but to know and live close to Christ. He is our prize !
Very thoughtful and thorough. Wow. Truly compassionate and yet standing strong on scripture. Even I could follow these well versed men. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for taking sober and heartfelt and biblically based look at this controversial topic.
I really like and support the fact that the Bible and God also support Slavery, rape, the eating of sushi, wearing mixed fibers (basically all modern clothing), men only being able to wear short hair, and women not being allowed to be in positions of responsibility or power. Fantastic stuff! If the Bible is so true, why did God say this stuff? It's always baffled me how people can support this. God undeniably said this! There is no way around it! He even gave the specifics on the extent to which you could beat your slaves! I find it funny how quick God is to judge others when his own methods are selfish, cruel, imperfect, unjust, immoral, and shockingly wrong.
Either the Bible is imperfect, or God is a morally corrupt being not worthy of worship.
I don't see any way to justify those things.
This is easily extended to the topic of homosexuality as well. Why did God create animals that participate in homosexual acts? Why is it only 'natural' in animals but not in humans? (Look up giraffes! They are literally the most gay thing on this planet)
I think it also calls into question why God would create a function in the human brain that even has this ability. Why curse an entire group of people with not being able to be married in his eyes? Why block them from the love of others? If God made the human brain: Why did he create a function so horribly alienating?
I also noticed in the video that "ancient civilizations didn't have a form of birth control so homosexuality is the only act that doesn't result in procreation" which is... just so laughable it's actually sad. Ancient Rome made an entire species of plant go extinct because it was such an effective form of birth control.
That and the whole idea that "Sex is all about making babies" is just wrong. Gay people aren't the only ones who participate in oral sex. Straight couples have sex for fun all the time. Don't lie. It's true. The Catholics even have a whole schedule they developed so that they could have sex for fun under "God's natural guidance" (Basically they just follow a woman's cycle to avoid having children when they don't want to)
It's insulting.
That and the whole stereotype of gay people "only doing it for sex" is absurd as well!
Did you get married only for sex? Is that really the only thing you value in your wife/husband? Really?
I would argue that Gay people even value their relationships more because they get so much hateful crap for simply loving someone.
You are probably asking:
"So if it's not about sex why are you even gay?"
Simple. For the same reason you are straight and love your husband/wife. Looks, personality, goals, mannerisms, the way they think about things etc etc etc.
In fact, I would turn the question around: If you think it's so easy to just want to fall in love with someone, why not try being gay for 5 minutes? Come on! If you think we can do it, show us how! Because trust me, I've tried.
I hated myself from the age of 12-17. Every day I tried desperately to make myself a straight guy and it hurt more than you can possibly imagine to attempt and fix myself alone. Because I knew that if my parents found out, I would be disowned and cut off from my 6 younger siblings who like their parents are Creationists who think that being gay means being a messed up, morally black, viper who only seeks to corrupt and destroy the stuff that perfectly whole straight people have.
I'm 18 right now and my parents still don't know. I love my parents and younger siblings a ton.
I think a lot of Christians forget that there are more gay people around them than they expect and that whether you know it or not: There are almost definitely people in your life right now who are just as alone as I am. People who are waiting to be able to support themselves enough so that they can safely distance themselves from the people they love and cherish so that at least their family won't hate them or condemn them to hell.
I think the biggest myth of all is that gay people want to indoctrinate kids.
As a gay guy, if you take away one thing above all others from reading this, please understand: I would never wish homosexuality on anyone. Ever. I hate it, even now that I have accepted who I am. I would rather die than pass such a self-loathing, lonely, and miserable existence onto anyone.
In this day and age, it is a curse. Anyone who says otherwise is in an extraordinarily blessed position or is lying to themselves. Maybe one day I will feel better about it, but it will never be worth the agony and waste of time that it took to get to whatever happiness I may find in the future.
The only thing that gay people are looking for as far as kids go is to find the younger people who know they are gay so that they can educate them and show them that they don't have to be bitter, or lonely, or morally corrupt, or that they are not worthy of love. It is a really slippery slope when a person is cut off from family. Gay people know that more than anyone and I think that's why there are a good amount of gay people who struggle with committed relationships.
Because those people DO exist, especially in Christian households. And unlike straight people, there are no parents to talk to about this. No straight Creationist couple is going to understand their gay child's struggle. Unless they don't hold to biblical literalism it can be so hurtful to hear family members talk like they do.
My own mother has unknowingly hurt me many times when she has talked about how demented gay people are. How sick, unnatural, and cursed I AM and how I am going to hell.
She doesn't know that I am gay. Because people don't realize that there isn't a difference. None. I'm a person with feelings, hopes, and dreams too.
I know I started this long excapade with sarcasm, but I do hope whoever has taken the time to read this has a good day and that hopefully at least a bit of my long rant has reached you.
I "Thank God" for Christians in the spot light who stand with scripture and speak the word of God in our culture. My current place of employment celebrated "pride month". We frequently have patients that are male and we are expected to call them she.
We are all sinners saved by God's grace. I don't celebrate my own sin. I certainly don't want to celebrate others sin either.
Lol God made all men to be gay, it's their anatomy and if look at patterns of male sexual behavior all throughout history, it's certainly their preference.
You should not be forced to address others in a way that compromises your beliefs. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this. God bless
Why don't they force kids to wear "I did my homework " for a month!!!!
@brotherbarton1148 Sure. If you want to. You’ll end up in jail, though.
The one part that people seem to gloss over is that God must be put 1st. If you put anything in front of your love for God that is an idol.
Also if the 1st thing you identify as is anything other than Christian you have made that your idol.
If you come with a statement "as long as I can do X I'm willing to be a Christian" then you have put something before God.
I agree that people shouldn't identify with one things alone, but that includes a deity whose existence is not self-evident (no matter what Romans 1:20 or any of the surahs says). If you say identify with a supernatural concept alone and don't let anything change you mind, you come of more as a cultist than a free thinker.
@@js1423 My comment on here is not trying to debate with someone whether Christianity is right or wrong.
In the Christian faith to be a follower Of Jesus one must put everything else secondary to Jesus. The question being asked is can you put something ahead of your adherence to the Christian faith and still accurately call yourself a Christian. The answer to that is no. The Bible is very clear that there is a price to being a Christian. Now if you're not willing to pay that price, no one is trying to force you to and in no way should a Christian persecute an unbeliever for any reason.
1st Corinthians Paul clearly says that the job of the believer is not to judge the unbeliever that is God's domain. The job of the believer is to discern within the church and help his brothers and sisters stay on the right path.
@@JSRINTX Spencer Klavan, the openly gay and engaged son of the Daily Wire-pundit Andrew Klavan, also states a Christian should built their identity on Jesus in his Babylon Bee-interview. Does him being in a same-sex marriage prevent him from being a genuine Christian?
@@js1423 I don't know much about him but I will say this. If people are only willing to be a Christian as long as they can do x. Then they are in violation Jesus's teaching. Luke 14:26.
Religion is not about changing God to fit your wants and desires. I also believe all sexual sin whether it is premarital sex, adultery, homosexuality, and as Jesus said lust of the eyes (1 John 2 15:17) brings you farther away from God. So to do things or promote things that bring you away from God is something I do not find congruent with the Christian faith.
I think there is a huge desire to make Christianity pick and choose what you like and throw away what you don't and like I said before that is not religion that is man's self deception.
Is there a conversation as to whether the writings of Paul trump the actions of Christ? I am sure the thought is rather nuanced, and has a name. I just have no idea what it is.
So much of what people look to is their perception of living example in Christ, not the words of Paul. I think here in lies a lot of the drift. Is Paul equative to Moses? Is his heart hardened? We know he was flawed, and is his word legalist, or is does his - and the church's history point to the cyclical human experience the Hebrew of old had?
I wonder on this a lot. Not namely for the sake of this debate, but just in general.
“Non-procreative sex”? This is what they used in my grandmother’s day to say that sex was only allowed even in marriage in order to have babies. When your family was complete, sex stopped. This teaching was devastating for many marriages.
I was raised in the Church and never heard that and the Bible says don't deny each other except to fast and pray.
@@grainiac7824 I believe it was a Victorian Era teaching. Part of the idea came from the Scripture “in sin did my mother conceive me”. Also there was a body=bad/spirit=good idea. The term “non-procreative sex” was made, I think, to include various sex acts that don’t produce children and legislate what married people do in their private lives.
@@rebeccaarcher5139 sounds very gnostic
@@gareth2736 it's basically what the catholic church teaches to this day. Sexual activity only for procreation. Nothing else. Not even in marriage. All contraception is forbidden.
But at this point the protestant churches in the US have become almost indistinguishable from the catholic church anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if that became "official doctrine" of evangelicals very soon.
What’s your grandmothers day? I’ve never heard this and my grandmother was born 1 year after slavery ended (in the Deep South of Carolina)
The gospel was never meant to be “inclusive.” Sin is sin. It’s separates the saved and unsaved. Everyone would end up in Heaven if the modern idea of what it means to be inclusive were true.
God made us all. All of us sin. You can't criticize one sin over another. A sin is a sin; no sin is worse/better than another except maybe blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Jesus said others will know us, Christians, by our love. God is love.
@@terrilynch7845 when did I criticize one sin over another? Sin blocks us from salvation. If ANYONE confesses their sin and accepts Jesus as their Lord and savior, then they’re saved. Unfortunately a lot of people in the gay community don’t look at that particular sin as a sin. The Bible is very clear that it is.
@@terrilynch7845 The gospel isn’t inclusive. If it was, ALL would enter the kingdom of Heaven.
@@jollygreen9377 I have many gay Christian friends.
@@terrilynch7845 Ok, good, if they don’t think their homosexuality is a sin and act on it then they’re not Christian. It would be like me committing adultery on my wife for the last 15 years and all the while claiming it’s not a sin. I wouldn’t be a Christian then, no matter what I claimed to be.
i come from a church family, no emotional or sexual trauma, no absent father or over-protective mother, 2 brothers who are both straight and i'm gay but because of criticism from the church and society i started praying for God to help me with heterosexuality ever since i reached puberty. i'm now 67 - still waiting.
I pray everyday that God takes my lust away... but it's still here. Some of these sins are just in our nature and inescapable in this fallen world and this short life. We look to the cross with Joy (not happiness) that we will be redeemed.
I'm sorry that you've struggled so long with that, brother. You are not alone. God loves you and always draws you to Himself. It's up to us to open the door and embrace him in our lives
Did you or do you repent FIRST?
@@KD_ANKH_ATUM too many times to count. any other tips?
@@haintedhouse2990 Yes. Pray and fast.
@@haintedhouse2990 can't imagine the internal struggle it must be. Sorry friend.. I wish you many blessings.
I’m glad you are doing this bc just listening to the opposite it’s not enough .. we need to cover how the Bible shows truth
Exactly. My uncle is a Church of England Reverend and whenever I have questions he says we should always rely on the scripture ourselves to find answers and truth.
I really like and support the fact that the Bible and God also support Slavery, rape, the eating of sushi, wearing mixed fibers (basically all modern clothing), men only being able to wear short hair, and women not being allowed to be in positions of responsibility or power. Fantastic stuff! If the Bible is so true, why did God say this stuff? It's always baffled me how people can support this. God undeniably said this! There is no way around it! He even gave the specifics on the extent to which you could beat your slaves! I find it funny how quick God is to judge others when his own methods are selfish, cruel, imperfect, unjust, immoral, and shockingly wrong.
Either the Bible is imperfect, or God is a morally corrupt being not worthy of worship.
I don't see any way to justify those things.
This is easily extended to the topic of homosexuality as well. Why did God create animals that participate in homosexual acts? Why is it only 'natural' in animals but not in humans? (Look up giraffes! They are literally the most gay thing on this planet)
I think it also calls into question why God would create a function in the human brain that even has this ability. Why curse an entire group of people with not being able to be married in his eyes? Why block them from the love of others? If God made the human brain: Why did he create a function so horribly alienating?
I also noticed in the video that "ancient civilizations didn't have a form of birth control so homosexuality is the only act that doesn't result in procreation" which is... just so laughable it's actually sad. Ancient Rome made an entire species of plant go extinct because it was such an effective form of birth control.
That and the whole idea that "Sex is all about making babies" is just wrong. Gay people aren't the only ones who participate in oral sex. Straight couples have sex for fun all the time. Don't lie. It's true. The Catholics even have a whole schedule they developed so that they could have sex for fun under "God's natural guidance" (Basically they just follow a woman's cycle to avoid having children when they don't want to)
It's insulting.
That and the whole stereotype of gay people "only doing it for sex" is absurd as well!
Did you get married only for sex? Is that really the only thing you value in your wife/husband? Really?
I would argue that Gay people even value their relationships more because they get so much hateful crap for simply loving someone.
You are probably asking:
"So if it's not about sex why are you even gay?"
Simple. For the same reason you are straight and love your husband/wife. Looks, personality, goals, mannerisms, the way they think about things etc etc etc.
In fact, I would turn the question around: If you think it's so easy to just want to fall in love with someone, why not try being gay for 5 minutes? Come on! If you think we can do it, show us how! Because trust me, I've tried.
I hated myself from the age of 12-17. Every day I tried desperately to make myself a straight guy and it hurt more than you can possibly imagine to attempt and fix myself alone. Because I knew that if my parents found out, I would be disowned and cut off from my 6 younger siblings who like their parents are Creationists who think that being gay means being a messed up, morally black, viper who only seeks to corrupt and destroy the stuff that perfectly whole straight people have.
I'm 18 right now and my parents still don't know. I love my parents and younger siblings a ton.
I think a lot of Christians forget that there are more gay people around them than they expect and that whether you know it or not: There are almost definitely people in your life right now who are just as alone as I am. People who are waiting to be able to support themselves enough so that they can safely distance themselves from the people they love and cherish so that at least their family won't hate them or condemn them to hell.
I think the biggest myth of all is that gay people want to indoctrinate kids.
As a gay guy, if you take away one thing above all others from reading this, please understand: I would never wish homosexuality on anyone. Ever. I hate it, even now that I have accepted who I am. I would rather die than pass such a self-loathing, lonely, and miserable existence onto anyone.
In this day and age, it is a curse. Anyone who says otherwise is in an extraordinarily blessed position or is lying to themselves. Maybe one day I will feel better about it, but it will never be worth the agony and waste of time that it took to get to whatever happiness I may find in the future.
The only thing that gay people are looking for as far as kids go is to find the younger people who know they are gay so that they can educate them and show them that they don't have to be bitter, or lonely, or morally corrupt, or that they are not worthy of love. It is a really slippery slope when a person is cut off from family. Gay people know that more than anyone and I think that's why there are a good amount of gay people who struggle with committed relationships.
Because those people DO exist, especially in Christian households. And unlike straight people, there are no parents to talk to about this. No straight Creationist couple is going to understand their gay child's struggle. Unless they don't hold to biblical literalism it can be so hurtful to hear family members talk like they do.
My own mother has unknowingly hurt me many times when she has talked about how demented gay people are. How sick, unnatural, and cursed I AM and how I am going to hell.
She doesn't know that I am gay. Because people don't realize that there isn't a difference. None. I'm a person with feelings, hopes, and dreams too.
I know I started this long excapade with sarcasm, but I do hope whoever has taken the time to read this has a good day and that hopefully at least a bit of my long rant has reached you.
Something mentioned in the beginning of this video but was quickly glossed over was the issue of divorce. There’s a ton of divorce and remarriage within the church, and not always because cheating. Are Christians as concerned about the adultery committed daily by these 2nd marriages? It seems like the Catholic Church is the only one that has any consistency on this.
The church we attend has gone 180 in the last 10 years.
"You didn't pay taxes to help the poor. You paid taxes to help the rich stay rich."
So...pretty much exactly the same as today lol
Exactly what I was thinking 😂
This issue is one of the greatest challenges to the Church ever. I do believe God is displeased with how Christians are responding. We are still commanded to Love LGBTQ people. Too many Christians respond to LGBTQ people with what I call non-love. This non-love includes enacting legislation to essentially take away LGBTQ people's humanity. Therefore, how do we respond to them with Love? How does that look?
Said as a true victim.
Love is warning.
Stern warnings.
Not hate.
But if you are told that is hate and you are a victim over and over- you believe it.
Salvation is inclusive
BUT
Repentance is required for salvation.
Practicing and celebrating lawlessness (sin) means you didn’t seek Jesus, didn’t repentant- and not even in the process of it.
THEN gays claim victim of hate and unless the church AFFIRMS continuing in sin/lawlessness/abomination (against Gods design)- or WE are the ones who are sinning.
We know our sins, we know not to celebrate and affirm them. If we don’t- we expect those in the church to warn us out of love.
Not affirm or celebrate our abominations.
The Gospel is inclusive to all who accept Christ and make a concerted effort to turn from their sin! It's not enough for someone to day that they've accepted Christ, yet continue living a life of sin with no effort to truly repent!
I believe the gospel is to be shared with every person; no matter what their sins have, and how much they have sinned.
I believe the gospel also draws a line in the sand, between Jesus and all other hopes of attaining to the presence of almighty God, the Father, forgiveness of sins, perfect holiness, and eternal life.
So, I believe the gospel is inclusive in a way, and exclusive in another.
INCLUDES all humans humanity EXCLUDES certain behavior or beliefs.
@@suzannehartmann946 this is a great explanation!! 🤍
@Schooey in a way, yes. The Old Testament foretold the covenant God would make with humanity through His Son. The New Testament is the testimony of that prophecy being fulfilled.
The covenants we read about in the Old Testament were steps of preparation for the covenant with Christ.
To be sure, the Old covenants removed no one’s sin. The covenant with Christ cleanses us from all sin.
At the same time, Jesus and the apostles honored the faith of the old covenant saints; and recognized the New covenant was the fulfillment of the requirements of the old.
I’m I’m
The gospel doesn’t need to be inclusive. The church doesn’t bend to mans ideas, men bend to the church or bible.
Inclusion and affirmation are two different topics that ‘Pastor’ Brandon may want to consider familiarizing himself with.
Look at his toktoks.. he speaks nothing but false.. he loves his lifestyle too much.. maybe he will see truth eventually
Amen Sean!
Only the person who hates Jesus is excluded by the Bible. Jesus doesn't care what sin you're involved in because sin is human nature - He bids you to come to him, no restrictions. If you ask how inclusive LGBTIQ lobbyists are - perhaps they exclude Jesus rather than Jesus excluding them. Perhaps its the LGBTIQ lobbyists who think theres something wrong with the church rather than the church thinking they want to exclude gay or trans people.
I think the real issue is that LGBTIQ activists want leadership and teaching roles - and because those activists are not permitted that role they want to call the church exclusionary or not-inclusive - but really that's just evidence of their intent to usurp authority rather than be actual Christians. When you remove Christ from the center of Biblical theology and replace him with an identity group (like say Disabled people) and interpret through that lens - your misreading the Bible, you cutting people off from understanding it if youre the one teaching them. Unless you truly love Christ as evidenced by handling the Bible correctly in speech and deed - then you have no business leading or teaching anyone regardless of your political or intersectional identity.
27:23 "We're not playing a numbers game" of how many lives we destroy with this shameful rhetoric.
Two people cannot actively sin and be in the church community. The male & female relationship maps the imagine of God -
So why did god make people this way?
Lol. And yet gay sex for men is more pleasurable than with a woman because God decided to put the male g spot up the rectum. Pretty smart Eh?
Uhhh, everyone actively sins. Literally everyone.
@@courgette3401 this life seems to be a test. Search out Gods conversation with Cain
@@joebriggs5781 it’s not that we all sin, but what is happening in our heart about it. Sin is bad and defined outside of us - by our creator
With regards to the primary issues of the faith, I agree wholeheartedly with the discussion @ 40:00.
However, I think it's important to always keep in mind what what John says in Revelation, specifically Revelation 13. When discussing the mark of the beast, instead of saying "this will require endurance" like he does many times throughout the book, he says "This will require wisdom." A careful reading of chapter 13 shows many intentional call backs to Genesis. What I think this means is that the end times deception will be intense. Imagine a Church that is church in every possible conceivable way, except to those who have the "wisdom" John talks about.
TL;DR : Theology matters more than personal experience. Know it, or be deceived in the last days
I think "You shall not lie with a male" would be understood as any type of sexual relations. If "to lie" is a euphemism for sexual relations, then there would really be no need to specify "as with a woman". When Leviticus 18:22 adds "as with a woman", it implies that it is speaking of a specific kind of sexual relation. How does a male lie with a woman specifically? Penetration. So I think the verse can be interpreted to say that "You shall not penetrate another male". I think this compliments the context of cleanliness codes, as anal sexual relations would be seen as unclean.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11,
Sexual activities with same sex makes a homosexual.
God created sexual act for reproduction- that tells us all homosexuality activity is an abomination- not His design.
Thanks!
I was thinking of 2 things while this was going: the Bible describes homosexual sin as a greater and a more ingrained sin: being given over more to a reprobate mind, than other sins. The Bible does describe greater and lesser sins, though all sins need Christ's forgiveness. Also I was thinking about the allowance of concubines and multiple wives for Abraham, David, Solomon etc. going against the genesis design position. Yes this was cultural but why wasn't this, especially w the notion of concubines, specifically changed according to the design of God? In other words, if design of marriage was so important, 1 woman and 1 man why didn't God specifically give commands to the Israelites to change the cultural flow in this area when they had to in others?
Great question. I think he did. Check out SLAVES, WOMEN, AND HOMOSEXUALS by W Webb.
I also think God allowed these stories to show that he doesn't approve of it. Every home that was apart from God's design of one man and one woman in the Bible seemed to be ladden with great problems because of it.
God will work through it regardless. The Bible (or gospel specifically) was written so that we may not sin, but if we do sin.... God will still work out His purpose through it
Yet God also destroyed cities and executed people for ignoring the poor and needy. Furthermore the Bible lists pride, arrogance, lying, etc. also as great and abominable sins.
But God made the human body built for gay sex? And male sexuality is evidently extremely fluid?
@@actingapostlesage LOL Christians are funny.
I would be careful about using the term "clobber passages" if not swearing off using that term altogether.
I had the same thought, we don't use kid gloves for other si s identified in the Bible. Saying 'clobber passages' implies the words themselves are meant to harm people. It seems to be a judgement on God's word.
I'd be enabling Sean if I didn't tell him that he doesn't have to give in to pressure from society, to do his hair like that. Sean i hope you get a bit of a laugh out of this'n. Thank you for your work. All the best to you and your immediate flock.
🤣🤣🤣
I've gone out in public a few times without checking how my hair looks, so I won't cast any stones. 😉
Lol lol that's so funny to me, bc my Dad.. who is 63.. and just left his wife of 20 years for one of their much younger friends.. has been wearing his hair (same color now) just like that lately lol maybe with a bit more Mohawk in the middle lol
Thank you guys🙏🏼❤️
At minute 9:15 the topic of marriage comes up- I’d like to recommend the excellent in-depth and thorough study of Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage by Mike Winger.
Awesome suggestion
If God makes no mistake, how do you explain intersex humans? There is a variety of chromosomes that are different than the usual XX - XY. I was raised Catholic, yet my grand-mother was reprimanded by her parish priest for not being pregnant after her 13th child. This has led my family to walk away from Church. We have faith, but don't rely on other humans to manage our lives, with all the division and interpretation within Christianity, excluding *the others*. I live by the Golden Rule, that is common to most religions. I chose to respect people and do good. I'm divorced and I was told if I gave money to the Church, then I could remarry, oh well. This is the kind of thing that drove so many away from practicing within organized religions.
I'm not sure that in the ancient world, there were no preventative measures for pregnancy. The biblical Onan is at least one example. I can well imagine that other methods were in use, even though not as effective as modern methods.
I agree. "What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun." -Eccl. 1:9
Yes there was, abstinence. Sometimes, a person just says no. Also, when working hard everyday (food, water, shelter, protection, etc.), sex takes a far lower priority.
Great point in regards to Onan. I’m not sure that it would be proper to call Onan’s action a preventative measure, in the sense we understand preventative measures today, because it was a sin. Closer examination of Genesis 38 reveals that Onan was to fulfill the Mosaic requirement (Deut. 38:1-10) of impregnating his deceased brothers wife (since she had no children by her husband, Onan’s brother). During intercourse, Onan pulled out and wasted the semen on the ground and verse 10 shows that what he did was wicked in God’s sight and he died as a result. So I’m not sure if I’d call that preventative since the Bible classified it as wicked and thus put reproduction in such a high regard.
@@dhodge0127 As a preventative measure, it was certainly effective. Even if the motive was sinful. Only wanted to point out that the ancient world *did* have ways to prevent pregnancy without regarding their moral nature. In other words, sin does not make some measure ineffective. Compare it to abortion: certainly effective for ending pregnancy, wherever you stand on the moral issue.
@@bogusphone8000 excellent point. Just saying "no" is certainly effective. And good point about hard work affecting sex drive. Today we work far less than the ancient world and often with much less physical labor.
What about Solomon's harem
I was formally a practicing homosexual but God convicted me and I repented and was baptized and surrendered my life to being a practicing disciple of Christ Jesus... Now, my same sex attraction didn't just go away with a wave of a divine wand... I learned that I still need to renew my mind and walk in total surrender and carry my own cross on a daily bases...
However, if someone were to convince me and offer me the liberty that I could still go to heaven and have all the rewards as any other heterosexual person but I could remain a homosexual and even to have a boyfriend or a "life long mate of the same sex" then I'd prefer to do that instead, since it would be much more easy for me in this life...
So, I said all that the point out this statement which I think it is an extremely unbiblical and absolutely dangerous statement...
@42:50 Gay & celibate, or side A and side B - .."I don't think that necessarily being, ah, being gay and sexually involved necessarily disqualify you from membership in the Kingdom. I think gay & celibate is the preferred position biblically and theologically.."
Nope, this is what the scriptures ACTUALLY say about this....
"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will NEVER ENTER the kingdom of heaven." {Matthew 5:20 ESV}
Just before this passage, Jesus also says this, ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." {Matthew 5:17-19 ESV}
And in Revelation a voice from The Throne (which would be either God the Father or Son) says, "The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the SEXUALLY immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their PORTION WILL BE IN the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."" {Revelation 21:7-8 ESV}
The scripture, and Jesus, NEVER AFFIRM any same sex romantic relationships, let alone unions. EVER. But, in fact condemn those in the strongest of terms. (Lev. 20:13; 18:22; Deut. 23:17; Rom. 1:26-27)
Being offended (i.e. "harmed") is a result of one's own refusal to acknowledge who retains the position of Lordship and Godhead over one's own life...
If I am so proud and arrogant to refuse to consider lordship and ultimate authority to the Almighty Creator of the whole cosmos, then yes, I'm going to "feel" harm and hurt when my own self perception of my own authority to dictate my terms of morality are challenged.
God bless you for your obedience! You shine bright!
They keep using the idea of being “loving” to get into the Christian Church. But make them speak to Absolute Truth, and then see how they run. The enemy is doing this to keep us AWAY from the Truth. Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Without Truth, we have no Gospel or even Bible. You can have Life without being “loved”, but you cannot live without the Truth. Love rejoices in the Truth.
Every ideology is exclusive. Inclusivity excludes the exclusivist.
Well, usually the exclusivist wants to be exclusive, no one forces them to be that.
@@js1423 as mentioned, every ideology is exclusive, it’s a point most people take a while to grasp.
These interesting games we play with words are awesome. This is also why I feel that the men in the bible are often the most exclusivist. God, especially in Jesus, remains very inclusivist. Drawing the lines between man and God, and who did what, and for why, is really intriguing.
I feel as though Jesus used pointed words, and his actions and reasons are observed and just as, if not more important. This seems to reflect the way he sees us, our hearts, as well. Words are clumsy. Limiting. HE is not.
@@michaeljmeyer3 I mean what is tolerant and inclusive varies much from time to time. Before the Middle Ages and Early Modern period the Ottoman Empire was quite tolerant towards Christian and Jewish minorities (didn't actively persecute them) but with the arrival of the enlightenment in Europe during the 18th and 19th century, they quickly were seen as backwards and theocratic.
@@js1423 Try again. The so called inclusive lgalphabet gang EXCLUDES anything remotely Christian.
As a heads up to whoever that guy is (can't remember his name) at 21:30 he said that in the ancient world there were no birth control methods which is false. For example, even before Jesus's time condoms had already been around for hundreds of years.
Well presented!
We will accept the money of ALL people willing to part with it.
Did anyone force those people to come and put money in an offering to a faith in which they don’t believe in?!
How can marriage, adultery, divorce and remarriage not be a salvation issue when Jesus clearly said those who commit adultery will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Then no one enters the kingdom of heaven as all have committed adultery in their heart.
No he said the very rich will not inherit the kingdom
Because salvation is based on one's faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-10). Good works and a changed life don't merit salvation; only belief in Christ does. Once saved you are a new creation in Christ. You are no longer defined by your sin- you are a Child of God. But Christians still have to grow and abide in Christ, something we often fail to do. He is the True Vine. We can do nothing apart from Him except wither.
@@rmatthi6722 Beautifully said!. Also once you are a new creation in Christ, a changed life and some type of good works follow as an outpouring, if the faith in Christ and repentance of sin is genuine.
@@matildafaltyn6253 Glad you mentioned repentance as that's what I was going to say lol. If someone has done any in the list and is wilfully unrepentant the verse gives you the conclusion as to what will happen to them.
612 commandments from Mosaic law and most Christians say they don’t oppose same sex relationships out of hate for the people only hate for sin. Yet shaving your beard breaks a law, cutting your hair at the temple, eating shellfish. Where is the hate for breaking these commandments and others? We should be protesting barber shops and Red lobster
Christians spend too much time placating the emotional sensitivity of those who are offended by the gospel ...
They do because most serve money.
21:35 they didn't have any birth control methods? That is not true. I don't know if he's lying or just ignorant on the subject
Overall I feel like this issue is progressing to a hermeneutics disagreement more than a moral disagreement. More conversations between affirming and non affirming talking about how they view scripture would be sick! Maybe it already exists on the channel idk.
Did you see my convo with Colby? I think it does come largely down to hermeneutics and a different weighing of ethical principles…
Hermeneutics: understanding the cultural and historical context of language while also taking into account the definition/meaning if the language being used.
Hermeneutics is ti develope an understanding the language being used.
Thanks for this! Super helpful!
I am a reborn Christian if you do not believe that God hates that sexual sin then you call Him a liar. I fell for the lie and now set free. Believe me it eventually will destroy you and your relationship with God. Don’t do it! God loves you so much. He sent Jesus to set you free. Blessings…
But God designed men to be gay. It's better.
Calling the treatment of women and slaves in the old testament "Radical coequal inclusion," is frankly delusional. Although I noticed he always slips on "In the kingdom of God," to make it clear he's not defending the current-life treatment of women and slaves in the old testament.
Without picking the fly poop from the pepper on the definition of inclusive, conversations like this are very necessary as the Bible is inclusive of all people but not all actions. Its through these discussions believers learn how to engage the culture to edify fellow sinners, because saved or unsaved you are a sinner, bringing those sincerely repentant people struggling with same sex attraction or gender dysmorphia (tempted but not transgressing) into a right and truthful understanding of their true identity in Christ and what that entails. The church should have conviction over the difference between its position on a matter and it's treatment of God's people and seek ways to love the individual whilst vehemently not tolerating the sin
Amen! Best comment yet. Thank you brother!
My perception of what Sean said is that the list of unrighteousness in 1Cor 6 is speaking of believers.
If one is to believe that 1Cor 6, list of unrighteous acts disqualifies one from inheriting the kingdom of God them why don’t we vehemently point out ALL acts of unrighteousness. Is not divorce (adultery) rampant within the body of Christ? How about covetousness?
How about the context that this scripture is talking about taking ‘disputes’ outside to unbelievers and how they will not enter the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 6:11 and such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
But God…
We are cleansed of ALL sin by the blood of Jesus.
We are justified by the blood of Jesus.
Perfectly said!
Oh, this nonsense again about "loving the sinner and hating the sin". It's a lie. And you all know that. Look at reality, at people throwing out their LGBTQ children because "the Bible tells them so".
I hope you guys all eat kosher, because the Bible tells you to. Old testament and new.
One very difficult aspect of scripture is the seeming dichotomy between love and rebuke. Scripture calls on us to act in both ways. Listening to your discussion it portrayed to me that love is the only answer. Where does rebuke fit in? The new wave churches are practicing this love only aspect of scripture. To the point that diversity in the church is being described by social construct. Not spiritual gifts. How can church leaders rebuke in love? Without rebuke, the word “no” gets placed on a spectrum, specifically where scripture is concerned.
You actually make a very good point. Our existence is suffused with "love and rebuke", it's our nature. Even found in primitive tribes in the amazon. So no, love isn't the only answer, it's always a mix. The trick is, what is that mix? It changes over time, and I will say it gets *better* over time. We are by no means done, by no means perfect, but we are getting better...
@@hongotedesco8931 so how does that fit with the fact that the 20th century was the most bloody and horrific of all centuries? And even worse more people died from decrees of their own leaders.
Sorry Sir, with all due respect,, if the word of God has primary and secondary issues where the secondary issues can or can't be believed then you are putting the entire Word of God in question. We as Christian's do not need consern us with the world view of us, but rather how God views us.
Amen brother!
So for example, one's view of head coverings is enough no make them a false teacher? Is every denomination other than yours wrong? Are they destined to hell for their confused interpretation? Or is there a chance we aren't able to get everything 💯 and God has some grace for us?
So a church that goes against the bible by being cessationist is as much in error as a church that denies the deity or humanity of Christ?
Romans 1 talks about those who wanted nothing to do with God. How in the world do you explain the vast numbers of devout Christians raised in godly homes who never turned their backs on God and still have homosexual or non heterosexual orientations? How can they turn their backs on what was never natural to them to begin with? This never should have happened according to the cause and effect of these verses.
This is why Exodus closed: it simply did not help and in many cases greatly harmed.
@amalek. Very interesting. Just starting to learn about Exodus.
Reading the book STILL TIME TO CARE.
I have a son struggling with gender dysphoria.
Thx for sharing
When it comes right down to the nitty gritty…it doesn’t really matter what my human fallen mind conjures up when it comes to sexuality, it matters what God says!…cause He made the model and wrote the handbook. Parts is parts and they only work one way! 😉
Well, you'd be surprised at the imagination of humans when it comes to "parts"...not to mention that homosexual behavior has been observed in over 500 different species....why would god want that?
@@hongotedesco8931 God made all men to be gay.
@@Contrarian-v7p Well.........not all, omg, absolutely not.
@@hongotedesco8931 Yes all. All men have a prostate so yes all.
It matters what God says truly, therefor we shouldn´t look at the 6 passages in the bible and assume they are adressing sexual orientation!
God hates sin. The burnt ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah are a testimony to that fact.
That is fiction.
@Schooey
HOLY BIBLE
READ THE BOOK OF ROMANS
We have to empathize with the "harm" people feel from difficult teachings. A child may feel very hurt if you don't give him candy before dinner, and he may cry because he didn't get what he wanted. And you can support him through being upset, but giving him candy before dinner is actually what would cause harm.
This isn't really the issue, the issue is this idea that LGBT values are somehow wrong. They're not. It's just this blind adherence to what's written in the bible is the problem. The bible is just a set of books written by ancient men, not the word of god. We don't have any evidence for god, much less evidence that what's in the bible is actually the word of god. We should move on from these anachronistic ideas.
@@hongotedesco8931 Something religion has really messed up over history is why sin is wrong. Street preachers like to tell people to repent to avoid being rejected and sent to hell by God. Repentance then becomes about being accepted by God. But this is wrong. God wants us to avoid sin because sin results in isolation from love. It's like heroine, the pleasure lures people in, but the cost is huge and often results in people overdosing or ending up alone on the streets. For a parent to see their child go down this path is probably the hardest thing in the world. But what i've learned is that each person has to learn this for themselves, and God is teaching everyone. He allows suffering because sometimes it's necessary to let your child go down the path they choose and learn the truth for themselves, even if you tell them where it will end up. I believe LGBT values are harmful to the individual, but I think it's more wrong when religious people pressure people to change.
@@patricksqt9535 Well, there's a fundamental issue: "God wants us to avoid sin because sin results in isolation from love". There is zero evidence of any god, so what does that mean? Who decided what god wants? What is sin? Too many unanswered questions.
And no, god, an imaginary being, does not allow suffering. If he actually did exist, it would mean he's one awful being. "Allowing suffering" is not just about individual choice. Yeah, Hitler had a choice, but did 6 million jews have a choice? Please...
@@hongotedesco8931 Even though there's no evidence for God, the principles of love remain the same. The principles of objectifying a human vs seeing their inherent value. What defines sin are actions that devalue people. If you consider the richest man in the world and all his wealth and compare him to a starving child in India, whose family is poor because the rich exploit their people and resources. This is a physical representation of the devaluation of people.
Have you heard the song Numb by Link in Park? My whole life I have tried to become what others wanted me to be and I completed lost my sense of self, and I couldn't feel love AT ALL for from about 9 years old to 27. I've learned how sin has shoved me underwater and made me invisible. Anyway I know I can't prove God's existence, all I wanted to say is that the message churches have preached has missed the meaning of God's grace. I wish I could help people understand it because it's given me so much freedom.
@@patricksqt9535 I couldn't agree more with "the principles of love remain the same". And most of everything you last wrote. And yes, life is complicated, people need to find "their way", some people have a harder time than others. And it's a complex jumble of genes, family, culture, society, etc, etc.
And I completely understand the concept of "God's grace" helping at least some people. But for somebody like me (gods/religions are just inventions), it just falls flat. It's meaningless to me.
But that's not why I'm on these forums. I'm on these forums because I don't want to see LGBTQ people stigmatized, vilified, etc, because of these inventions. That's just awful, and downright evil. And the other aspect is the anti-Science position that a lot of religionists take. It's awful/evil to tell a kid that is just starting to study evolution, and is also religious, to be told "oh, you need to read about both sides" (implying evolution isn't true). McDowell did that. But there aren't "both sides", there is only one side, the side of science, that is the only thing that belongs in a science classroom.
The mental gymnastics these two have to go through are amazing. Im shocked how many people seem to buy this. Lets focus on their man and women is "natural" argument. If God is all good and made people in his image and people who are ssa dont have a choice, then did god make them unnatural? How does that make any sense. Is god all good but enjoys temping people with love that they can't have?? Doesn't seem all good and all loving to me.
I'm learning more about how to effectively and graciously have dialogue with LGBTQ. I'm reading Ethix by Sean McDowell.
Awesome. BTW, that book was from 2006. I just updated it and it releases in two weeks. It’s called A REBELS MANIFESTO
@@SeanMcDowell repent or die
Delete the messages sent from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 and you reject Jesus Christ herself and will automatically be thrown into the lake of fire. Make your decision now, God is watching you.
Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing is now in THE GREAT TRIBULATION. Malachi 3:8 is talking to the thieving church leaders!!! It is prophetic instruction for them to repent and God will end Covid. Fake ministers know every time they collect money for ministering they kill more people with Covid and they do it anyhow! Luke 10:7 says the only wages for ministering are eating and drinking whatever you are given. Do you understand the fake ministers KNOW they lie and they do it on purpose to steal your money? That's also fraud. When the fake church leaders are arrested for fraud, they chose it.
Transgender is when a person is born with a gender opposite the sex characteristics normally associated with that gender.
🏳️🌈 Mathew 19:12 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender.
🏳️🌈 Eunuchs made that way by others were abused in some way and something inside of them blocks off a certain type of body but it doesn't happen to everyone that is abused.
🏳️🌈 Those that choose to live like Eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex-characteristics but opposite in regards to gender.
Notice, it states God PREFERS for people to be in LGBT relationships.
God created them male and female, determined by gender, located in the brain.
I am Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6. In Deuteronomy, it states nobody was castrated back then. But, that is what God wanted people to think so they wouldnt take it out of the Bible. As Elijah, any discrepancies in the Bible are ultimately decided by me. I can't prove I am Elijah, but people keep telling me I'm about to be announced to the world. My destiny is to usher in the Messiah!
Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing, selling anything at all using the gospel, or teaching same-sex marriage is a sin CHOOSES to die with the wicked.
Lev, Corinth, and Timothy were translated wrong on purpose by Billy Graham. The real translation is "men shall not lie with young boys" and the German version of the Bible actually says "men who molest boys."
Romans is not referring to Eunuchs where on partner is transgender. In fact, God is the one that did it on purpose because they were trying to procreate during orgies.
Sodom and gem. was about rape and had nothing to do with marriage of any kind.
Anyone that rejects the comments from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 rejects Jesus Christ Herself and that means they CHOOSE to die with the wicked. This is not a threat. Ezekiel 33 says if you don't warn people of their wicked ways and they die in their sins then God will hold you accountable for their deaths. But once you warn them, if they don't repent and die in their sins, their deaths are now on them.
Anyone that teaches anything other than this chooses to die w the wicked. That means all people that choose to continue to teach same-sex marriage is a sin when it is NOT (God PREFERS it) will die with the wicked by their own choice and not be here to walk the planet with Jesus.
Anyone that denies this message is now in the GREAT TRIBULATION and they will begin to suffer tremendously until they either repent or it's too late and they die. It's their choice . . .
Love,
🏳️🌈 ELIJAH THE LESBIAN 🏳️🌈
Remember, Malachi 2 proves Malachi 3:8-12 is prophetic instruction for the thieving church leaders to repent....
Yes please learn and help your friends. Gay people feel utterly rejected and not good enough to be loved by God. Not because of what the Bible says. But by the way Christians reject them.
You can be LGBT and Christian 👬
@Hector Rodriguez I'm supposed to be in a relationship with Jesus that looks like a marriage. It would be hypocritical to be against LGBT
Gosh, this is a good discussion. I've been thinking about Jude v3&4. When I became a believer, God delivered to me the gospel and its the responsibility of each individual Christian to take on the responsibility to maintain and content for The Faith. The organizations that challenge the church seek to change the institution and the teaching/preaching and leadership structure of the institution (like the SBC or Presbyterians or Roman Catholic church) but we can let those institutions fall (regrettably) but it doesnt change that the responsibility for orthodoxy is laid on the individual Christian to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, seeking to serve and please God regardless of the social context. The institution of the Church has less Authority than the apostolic witness found in the New Testament. All institutions can fall and yet the power of salvation is not lost as long as one believing Christian, who has fully submitted to Christ remains on this Earth.
Here is where I would quote Romans 12:1-2 along with Jude v3&4, Philippians 2:3-13, Colossians 2:6-7, Romans 14:22 and Revelation 14:12
The problem is that for the most part, christians have it all wrong. Most christians I've met are so unchristian. Feed the poor? They rail against immigrants. "If you want to be complete, sell all your possessions and give to the poor", how many christians do that? None that I know of.
@@hongotedesco8931 Whatever your definition of Christian is - is filtered through 'DOism".
Why did Jesus say sell everything and give it to the poor? It wasnt a statement about the poor, it was a statement about the individual's heart. Jesus said it in a context, which you have removed it from to make a point that actually ignores what that scripture passage means.
If the Christians you know (or not) are merely just doing what you think are 'christian' things - that doesnt mean anything. A Christian is first a person who has believed and is loyal to Jesus Christ.
Its not if you sell everything and give it to the poor.
@@TheLookingGlassAU Ok, sure, my pulling out the "give to the poor quote" was probably not the best thing to do. I understand there's quite a debate as to what this means (your interpretation is just one).
But in general, my experience, is that evangelical christians are unkind and unloving. I've seen families break up because a child doesn't want to adopt the zealotry of the parents. Or forget it when a child is gay (they try this "conversion therapy" nonsense, eeewww). And they treat women unkindly when protesting at abortion clinics. Just not nice people.
@@hongotedesco8931 just because their are dirty, torn, crumpled and counterfeit banknotes out there it doesn't mean you refuse to use them. Obsession over some Christian's behavior and making that a claim on all works both ways. You're just picking the negative side of that coin. If you meet one genuine kind Christian, you are logic bound to change your mind.
@@TheLookingGlassAU Well sure, the whole "painting EVERYBODY with the same brush" is of course flawed. Of course there are kind and loving christians. But what's the whole point of this video? It's essentially trying to say "how do we tell people that they're bad in a nice way?". That to me is awful, gays are not bad at all, it's just this religious inertia that's deciding they're bad....and that is unkind/unloving.
i don't agree with Dr. Sean McDowell on the abortion thing but thats something i can understand as a difference of opinion from a different moral standpoint. like i can understand antiabortion reasoning. what i guess i don't really understand is the anti-gay thing from a moral stand point. like i get that the elitist liberal lgpqbslmnop crap is stupid and am right there with you all on that but where i disagree is when you all just start saying that "normal gays or normal trans people who were naturally born that way are wrong", then i disagree cause that just feels wrong. like if they're just naturally born that way how do you know what gods point is besides from the bible? like if you don't believe the bible is reliable? or at least not reliable enough to condemn your fellow brothers for?
Thank you for your candor here. I often feel the same. The people hear, "Deal with your vice" so often from a church that has an incredible spectrum built around tolerance. Evangelicals can look incredibly liberal compared to Amish, and others - and then criticize other, more tolerant types. It does seem odd, to me.
Personally, I think there is grace, understanding, etc for every color on that flag. I do not feel so for abortion, as a matter of consistency. Either every life is weighted equally, or none truly matter. I do understand that this allows for some quandary in certain situations - but not a vast majority.
Scientists and doctors have not discovered a gay gene...meaning that there's no body born gay. There's no body born transgender either. People usually confuse transgender with intersex.
Intersex are those who were born either with both genitals or none.
So nothing for you to disagree with I suppose? :)
@@michaeljmeyer3 yeah 100% dude! like i don't personally agree with anti-abortion laws but i totally understand the moral argument around that. but like the gay thing? like maybe i would understand it better if i was gay but i'm not gay i'm straight af so like it just doesn't seem right to judge gay people. like i've just came back around to being christian and have decided instead of tryna believe the entire bible all at once i'm just going to take it one verse at a time. and its weird cause i read the bible and very little of it has anything do with the gays but when i listen to christians preach about christianity it gives the impression that like the entire bible was based around whether or not its wrong to be gay. the real issue seems to be if the entire bible is true or not and i don't think it is. doesn't seem to be 100% true otherwise we would know i think. just the fact that we don't 100% know for sure its true is reason to doubt i think. but like that doesn't mean we should throw out the whole bible either imo. anyway thanks for leaving an interesting comment! not a lotta those around here lol. peace dude!
Some ppl are natural liars. Some are naturally prone to porn. Some are naturally skeptic. Natural tendencies are not necessarily a sign of goodness. I have sexual sin in my past and had to repent and actively fight it.
This whole thing is so stupid. God designed the male body to experience greater pleasure through gay relations. Marriage isn't eternal anyway, it gets dissolved in the age to come so God obviously doesn't care too much about who bangs who.
None of the normal arguments could convince me that God's grace would not cover homosexuality that was loving and monogamous. Now, I could go through some of the many arguments about this, ranging from how the first and most important commandment is not broken, how a homosexual person living in a heterosexual relationship often does more damage to self and persons surrounding this relationship (and not in the obvious ways of direct emotional and abuse damage, but indirectly through self hatred and subliminal attraction and betrayal, etc.), and even that God did actually create man to be able experience pleasure with man in a way that one cannot in heterosexual sex, among many others, but these are all moot. I had resolved all the inner conflict on the matter and felt no guilt about same sex attraction or involvement.
What eventually changed this for me was when I discovered that the Hebrew word for "he" - הוא and "she" - היא contain the letter associated with God - aleph. Should you remove this letter and combine the two, you have the most holy name of God! This means that a godly man and woman together can manifest godliness, but a man and a man cannot. Also, the term used by Paul, which is not a word in general use to denote same sex relations, but literally means "man bedder" is the best possible translation of the Hebrew term used in the old Testament prohibition of this. In other words, he, being highly educated in these matters and language, did not just create a new word to confuse the matter, he was directly referencing the old Testament prohibition.
I'm now at the point that, should God himself appear to me and tell me that it is OK, I would not return to this practice, just in case I was delusional and might offend God by this. It is not an easy matter, and I think churches have the obligation to have better answers for people struggling with same sex attraction. Particularly because there are as many pitfalls in abstaining and/or living a heterosexual life while having such attraction that can lead to "missing the mark" (sin). Perhaps we do not talk about the reality of sin and temptation enough...
How honest and thoughtful this comment is. I have had my own struggles with wanting to follow temptation into sin, and there was a point when I justified my behavior on the grounds that no one was getting hurt. There does need to be more discussion and support for those who have created a life of habitual sin and want freedom from that. I am astounded by God’s Grace concerning my own life. I’m glad His mercies are new every morning.
@@angelvirgilio7489 The first mistake we make is "owning" our sin, and that with pride... Does a cleptomaniac say, "I'm a thief and proud of it. Tomorrow we're having thief pride day and expect everyone to join in and celebrate our right to be ourselves"? Of course not! I no longer identify as homosexual. I'm tempted in same sex attraction at times, but temptation is to be resisted and overcome. How long until LGBTQIA2+ adds a P for paedophilia? Is their temptation legitimate and OK too? Of course not. Let every man deal with their sin and work out their salvation with fear and trembling before God.
I just want to put this out there as a Christian with mostly conservative views. I am so disappointed by so many of these comments. People are judgmental and to be honest flat out cringe. It's totally fair if you do not take an affirming view, but the way you act and speak about it is so repulsive to gay people that they would never feel comfortable talking to you. If you don't see a problem with that and I would suggest remembering Colossians four verse five through six. If what you say instantly make somebody feel shame and unsafe your approach is flawed. When Jesus encountered people he disagreed with, even when he corrected their behavior they were not repulsed by the way he treated them but drawn to him. You don't need to compromise your beliefs but you do need to represent the character of Jesus no matter what that belief is.
Thanks for sharing. Do you have an issue with the way we tried to make our case in the discussion itself? I’m always open for feedback because I am to be biblical and respectful.
“aim”
@@SeanMcDowell I appreciate your critique Jeremiah, and I can accept that you personally might not be affirming. As far as your content and delivery Sean, I think you do as well as possible to be kind, measured, and open. It’s the constant return to the topic that has become the problem, and while it may bring you viewers and likes, it also brings a spirit of rebuke, anger, online bickering, and partisan fighting (as reflected in many of the comments that Jeremiah Leggett finds disappointing, maybe mine included).
I don't want Biola to be known as the Corinthian ‘ringing gong or clanging cymbal’ on this topic. Even if you have love, you can still bang that loud thing over and over and over. It can produce hurtfulness, shame, condemnation... and ringing ears. Can Biola be a safe space for someone struggling to figure things out if this constant drumbeat comes from one of its most vocal professors? Or are you actively trying your best to steer anyone with ANY personal sexual conflict or confusion so far from the University that they don’t dare apply? If that is your goal, I can actually respect that, as long as you are honest about it. But think of the people of the past, whose faith was shaped at Biola, even in the midst of personal sexual struggle, because no one was so loud and firm and unrelenting about homosexuality. So if you want to be biblical and respectful, in my opinion, just please stop already on the LGBTQ+ issue. The Bible mentions it a few times, Jesus none, and if you get canonized you will have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Sean devoted to one issue: homosexuality. You have a huge backlog on the subject, let that speak and please let it go. -Gregory Michael Hernandez, Biola Class of 1999.
@@SeanMcDowell Sorry! I meant the comments not your video! I think you are always really kind Sean :)
Hmmm... Jesus called the religious leaders vipers, corpses, tombs, other not so nice things. He constantly directly called out sin and immediately called them to repentance. He flogged those in the temple. Please don't have the view of Jesus as a teddy bear. Loving? yes. Also just, righteous, and holy.
If, like Christ, our goal in engaging others is a focus on truth and repentance, then we follow well. Paul gave us a great template - "I am the chief of sinners.", now let me tell you about who rescued me.
Don't you think if primary issues are in its right place, secondary issues automatically become primary issues? Then all become hills to die on.
Por favor sería de mucha ayuda para todos los Latinoamericanos si le pone subtítulos en español a sus videos, muchas gracias!!!
Delete the messages sent from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 and you reject Jesus Christ herself and will automatically be thrown into the lake of fire. Make your decision now, God is watching you.
Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing is now in THE GREAT TRIBULATION. Malachi 3:8 is talking to the thieving church leaders!!! It is prophetic instruction for them to repent and God will end Covid. Fake ministers know every time they collect money for ministering they kill more people with Covid and they do it anyhow! Luke 10:7 says the only wages for ministering are eating and drinking whatever you are given. Do you understand the fake ministers KNOW they lie and they do it on purpose to steal your money? That's also fraud. When the fake church leaders are arrested for fraud, they chose it.
Transgender is when a person is born with a gender opposite the sex characteristics normally associated with that gender.
🏳️🌈 Mathew 19:12 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender.
🏳️🌈 Eunuchs made that way by others were abused in some way and something inside of them blocks off a certain type of body but it doesn't happen to everyone that is abused.
🏳️🌈 Those that choose to live like Eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex-characteristics but opposite in regards to gender.
Notice, it states God PREFERS for people to be in LGBT relationships.
God created them male and female, determined by gender, located in the brain.
I am Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6. In Deuteronomy, it states nobody was castrated back then. But, that is what God wanted people to think so they wouldnt take it out of the Bible. As Elijah, any discrepancies in the Bible are ultimately decided by me. I can't prove I am Elijah, but people keep telling me I'm about to be announced to the world. My destiny is to usher in the Messiah!
Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing, selling anything at all using the gospel, or teaching same-sex marriage is a sin CHOOSES to die with the wicked.
Lev, Corinth, and Timothy were translated wrong on purpose by Billy Graham. The real translation is "men shall not lie with young boys" and the German version of the Bible actually says "men who molest boys."
Romans is not referring to Eunuchs where on partner is transgender. In fact, God is the one that did it on purpose because they were trying to procreate during orgies.
Sodom and gem. was about rape and had nothing to do with marriage of any kind.
Anyone that rejects the comments from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 rejects Jesus Christ Herself and that means they CHOOSE to die with the wicked. This is not a threat. Ezekiel 33 says if you don't warn people of their wicked ways and they die in their sins then God will hold you accountable for their deaths. But once you warn them, if they don't repent and die in their sins, their deaths are now on them.
Anyone that teaches anything other than this chooses to die w the wicked. That means all people that choose to continue to teach same-sex marriage is a sin when it is NOT (God PREFERS it) will die with the wicked by their own choice and not be here to walk the planet with Jesus.
Anyone that denies this message is now in the GREAT TRIBULATION and they will begin to suffer tremendously until they either repent or it's too late and they die. It's their choice . . .
Love,
🏳️🌈 ELIJAH THE LESBIAN 🏳️🌈
Remember, Malachi 2 proves Malachi 3:8-12 is prophetic instruction for the thieving church leaders to repent....
No one can call evil to good if you are born again.
The message of the gospel is “Everyone is invited…to repent”.
💥💥💯
💯
This is a hot topic for sure. And what a hornet’s nest it’s stirred up within the church. The UMC is a prime example.
Very true. Christians must weigh in with grace and truth.
@Justin Gary God created Evolution when he evolved dirt into a man.
@@SeanMcDowell what happened there. You can be lgbtq and Christian.
@@SeanMcDowell I really find your teaching on this subject to be of great help to myself, while I engage in reaching todays culture for Christ!
@@SeanMcDowell how many more tomes will you deny Jesus?
In Romans one its quite clear that God has designed and given 'man' to woman, and also designed and given 'woman' to man for the purpose of the two becoming one flesh, two different unifying into one same - like the trinity although there its 3 different persons but one God. Desires or preferences or even beliefs that go against that do not render that basic truth as untrue.
Marriage in the bible is a social union forming the foundation of community through having children, but modern marriage is redefined as merely a sexual union which doesnt necessarily include children. In the Bible marriages were a contract that was arranged, desire/love was not the primary factor. But i find in modern western culture personal desire and personal feelings of love guide pretty much all decisions, whereas the Bible teaches when all your decisions are guided by your own feelings - you are going to betray Christ because He is seeking your obedience, not your agreement on what is good. Part of faith in Christ is to submit as give Him the authority to correct you on what you think is good and evil.
Dude, don't pay so much attention to what a bunch of iron age men wrote 2k years ago. Is Christ really seeking my obedience? No, christ is just an invention. Get over that nonsense for the love of god.
Men are designed for men. Not for women. God clearly can't design bodies properly if hetero intercourse is the way to go. 😂
I don't believe a prophet would be at all as careful as you both have been. If something is a sin then renounce it. If something is biblically vile then declare it. It is written in Psalm 12, "the wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored amount men"....You almost sound like God owes Sodom and Gemorha an apology.
Amen!
Also, is the sin in question, clearly stated in the Bible? If it is, there is no grounds to ignore it. We make changes for God and not the other way around.
Dear Sean McDowell,
We were classmates one year apart: I attended Biola University starting in 1995 and graduated in 1999. I think you were in Emerson Hall when I was across the way in Horton Hall. I see that you have delayed this talk with Scott Rae until next week, but I ask that you cancel it completely. According to my count on your TH-cam channel, you have already made your views known about this subject 14 times since January 2020. You do not need to drill it home for a 15th time. Here are some common topics you have visited since January 2020:
Homosexuality (14 times)
Critical Race Theory (6 times)
Cancel Culture (5 times)
Masturbation and Sexual Purity (4 times)
Porn (6 times)
Abortion (5 times)
For someone who claims to be defending “historical, Biblical Christianity”, your favorite political topics are more inline with our 45th President and American Evangelicalism. Your constant drumbeat against homosexuality sounds like 21st century witch trials.
You could try some new material that focuses on defending the faith from challenges WITHIN your own American Evangelical tradition, such as “Trump and Evangelicals: an Unholy Alliance?” or “Q’Anon: Friend or Foe for the Christian?” or “Would Jesus Get the Vaccine?” or “Was the Insurrection divinely inspired?” or just discuss the recent L.A. Times article titled, “CRT, Trumpism and doubt roil Biola University. Is this the future of evangelical Christianity?”. But I suspect there is a reason you haven’t devoted one single episode to any of those topics. I'm sure there is money to be made by consistently promoting a Gospel that firmly cements American Evangelicalism and right wing politics, and constantly attacks left wing / progressive versions of Christianity. Is this the reason your TH-cam channel ramped up content in early 2020?
Recently, Christian Preacher Dillon Awes made news for preaching from the pulpit that gays “Should be lined up against the wall and shot in the back of the head. That’s what God teaches. That’s what the Bible says.” I assume that you would condemn going that far, but your preoccupation and obsessive criticism of an issue that never crossed the lips of Jesus comes across as more than unChristlike: it comes across as a personal vendetta. You come across as particularly disgusted by homosexuality, and you’ve devoted twice as much time to the issue than any other hot cultural topic. Please cancel this talk. There are many students at Biola for whom sexuality is a deeply sensitive, personal, traumatic, or conflicted issue. Your obsession with the topic comes across as theological bullying, in my opinion.
Sincerely,
Gregory Michael Hernandez
Are you gay?
First thing:
You've made many accusations on Sean's character with no evidence except a number "14 times". You've accused him of (1) doing this for money (2) being "right wing" (which has become a slur to conveniently broad brush the messenger in listeners' minds so they dont listen to what is being said) (3) being "preoccupied" and "obsessed" (4) having a "personal vendetta" (5) as being "particularly disgusted by homosexuality" and (6) of "bullying". And your reasoning for this... is because "you've devoted twice as much time to this issue than any other hot cultural topic". Maybe that's evidence for #3 "Preoccupied" and "obsessed", but that's no evidence at all for the others...the others are dependent on the content of what he said and HOW he said it. I've been watching Sean for a while, and he's more gracious than even some of his own viewers are and wish him to be. There are so many of his "conversation for clarity...this is not a debate" style interviews a lot of his viewers felt he couldve pushed back more instead of just allowing his guests to speak.
Second thing:
I actually am interested in hearing Sean's take on your suggested topics for discussion, but it's possible to state a desire for other topics without reading into someone's character your assumption of why they've talked about "x" and not about "y".
@@machellovelivelife658 Hi Machel, I can appreciate your concern with my comments. To be clear, I did not accuse him of doing this for the money, nor did I accuse him of being right wing. I said I'm sure there is money to be made in that realm, and then I asked an open ended question: "Is this the reason your TH-cam channel ramped up content in early 2020?". I think it's a fair question: he has 109k subscribers and he seems to be really ramping up content that coincides with the right wing political agenda. I did however suggest that he is preoccupied and obsessed with the topic of homosexuality. That's my opinion, and it's also just my opinion that (from an outside perspective) his channel comes across as theological bullying, and therefore he comes across as particularly disgusted by homosexuality. Maybe that's not fair, and I can concede that Sean tries hard to be kind and caring and fair.
You know, as an artist, I've only been censored once, and that was on the campus of Biola University a few years back. You could say I got "cancelled". I displayed an artwork at the center of campus that featured the ten commandments rewritten for a contemporary context. The President and Provost's office got inundated by phone calls, complaints from students and faculty. After a nice conversation with the President and Provost, I agreed to physically erase all the commandments off my artwork. It was either that, or remove the art completely. For reasons I won't explain here, Biola was not able to host an alternative theological viewpoint on campus. In the same vein, I am glad you can appreciate my suggestions for future topics by Sean McDowell. I think it would be difficult for him to pull off.
@@exilechildren Appreciate your clarification and tone. You've piqued my interest in your "rewritten for a contemporary context", not so much Biola's reasons but what the rewritten version actually said. Do you have that posted somewhere on social, how those commandments would read or want to share here?
Have a Good Day
@@machellovelivelife658 Thanks Machel. As I explained to Biola's President and the Provost, my rewritten commandments aren't trying to put words in God's mouth, nor change the Word of God: they merely follow in the Jewish tradition of provocation, fresh vision. This is what Jesus did when he said 'You've heard it said do not murder, but I say when you hate...that is murder..." (If people really took Jesus seriously and literally, Sean wouldn't have to put out so much content about porn and masturbation, because all his male followers would be walking around missing two hands!) Like Walter Brueggemann says, "Biblical authority" is not pointing and saying there it is, do that. The Bible authorizes new communities. It authorizes resistance to empire and it authorizes expanding the walls of division that keep certain people outside of the social order of acceptability. So I got censored/cancelled because I mention abortion and homosexuality. Biola couldn't even let my temporary artwork stay on campus with one of those "This does not express the views of the University..." They are here if you would like to see them: gmhstudio.com/section/502239-Ten-Commandments-2017.html
You have a good day too Machel.
The patriarch is intended to be head of the house, God will have a speaking relationship with one member who will instruct the others. However, we see Mary of Bethany who will receive the good part. And we see women who teach. Grace is dispensed in portions. The more enlightened teach the less enlightened. Salvation comes first. Righteousness can come after. In receiving this grace, the will of God supercedes inappropriate desires. Righteousness is required to participate in church ministries. (Easily said, but if we were to require righteousness, half or more of the church is eliminated.)
I am gay and I have been married to my husband for almost 10 years. None of us have the right to judge who we can marry. Everyone will be welcomed around the table.
Your claim that no one has the right to judge whom one marries rests on the premises that no one has the right to define marriage and no one has the right to think for themselves. It you are consistent, you must be accepting of bestiality, pedophilic marriage, and incestuous marriage. It’s really a totalitarian claim. Do you really mean it the way it comes across?
@@ricksonora6656 Would you go to a same sex wedding? I have been ask to leave a church because of my marriage.
If God asked you to walk away from that marriage, would you?
@@Becca_Lynn Are you asking me?
@@dbelcher3249 Yes
32:50 the better question would be "why isn't it viewed the same as pedophilia or beastiality?".
Since those two are about who/what you are allowed to love.
Can someone help me understand why these gentleman keep using the exact same deceptive language that the secular, Christ-rejecting world uses in defining certain issues? For example, there is the reference to "transgender affirming", "patriarchy", "same-sex attraction" etc... they are watering down what are clearly-defined boundaries according to Scripture. Believers who is watching this, I ask you to be very careful in what you are watching and whether this aligns with the tone of Scripture. There is a lack in confidence (maybe due to fear) in Scripture in this video.
I think they're just trying to "be nice", but ultimately failing. Just be nice. Don't discriminate against LGBTQ people. Done.
Sean is becoming more and more like his father 👍
Is this question about “inclusiveness” in regards to the government under the Constitution as it is right now? Or is about the Christian Protestant Church? All too often we don’t understand or are ignorant of the difference. Under the Law in the USA, I must often tolerate something that I would not or will not within my faith or my personal membership in the church.
43:10 "I don't think that being gay and sexually involved necessarily disqualifies you from the kingdom"
Paul disagrees in 1 Cor 6:9-10
I really like and support the fact that the Bible and God also support Slavery, rape, the eating of sushi, wearing mixed fibers (basically all modern clothing), men only being able to wear short hair, and women not being allowed to be in positions of responsibility or power. Fantastic stuff! If the Bible is so true, why did God say this stuff? It's always baffled me how people can support this. God undeniably said this! There is no way around it! He even gave the specifics on the extent to which you could beat your slaves! I find it funny how quick God is to judge others when his own methods are selfish, cruel, imperfect, unjust, immoral, and shockingly wrong.
Either the Bible is imperfect, or God is a morally corrupt being not worthy of worship.
I don't see any way to justify those things.
This is easily extended to the topic of homosexuality as well. Why did God create animals that participate in homosexual acts? Why is it only 'natural' in animals but not in humans? (Look up giraffes! They are literally the most gay thing on this planet)
I think it also calls into question why God would create a function in the human brain that even has this ability. Why curse an entire group of people with not being able to be married in his eyes? Why block them from the love of others? If God made the human brain: Why did he create a function so horribly alienating?
I also noticed in the video that "ancient civilizations didn't have a form of birth control so homosexuality is the only act that doesn't result in procreation" which is... just so laughable it's actually sad. Ancient Rome made an entire species of plant go extinct because it was such an effective form of birth control.
That and the whole idea that "Sex is all about making babies" is just wrong. Gay people aren't the only ones who participate in oral sex. Straight couples have sex for fun all the time. Don't lie. It's true. The Catholics even have a whole schedule they developed so that they could have sex for fun under "God's natural guidance" (Basically they just follow a woman's cycle to avoid having children when they don't want to)
It's insulting.
That and the whole stereotype of gay people "only doing it for sex" is absurd as well!
Did you get married only for sex? Is that really the only thing you value in your wife/husband? Really?
I would argue that Gay people even value their relationships more because they get so much hateful crap for simply loving someone.
You are probably asking:
"So if it's not about sex why are you even gay?"
Simple. For the same reason you are straight and love your husband/wife. Looks, personality, goals, mannerisms, the way they think about things etc etc etc.
In fact, I would turn the question around: If you think it's so easy to just want to fall in love with someone, why not try being gay for 5 minutes? Come on! If you think we can do it, show us how! Because trust me, I've tried.
I hated myself from the age of 12-17. Every day I tried desperately to make myself a straight guy and it hurt more than you can possibly imagine to attempt and fix myself alone. Because I knew that if my parents found out, I would be disowned and cut off from my 6 younger siblings who like their parents are Creationists who think that being gay means being a messed up, morally black, viper who only seeks to corrupt and destroy the stuff that perfectly whole straight people have.
I'm 18 right now and my parents still don't know. I love my parents and younger siblings a ton.
I think a lot of Christians forget that there are more gay people around them than they expect and that whether you know it or not: There are almost definitely people in your life right now who are just as alone as I am. People who are waiting to be able to support themselves enough so that they can safely distance themselves from the people they love and cherish so that at least their family won't hate them or condemn them to hell.
I think the biggest myth of all is that gay people want to indoctrinate kids.
As a gay guy, if you take away one thing above all others from reading this, please understand: I would never wish homosexuality on anyone. Ever. I hate it, even now that I have accepted who I am. I would rather die than pass such a self-loathing, lonely, and miserable existence onto anyone.
In this day and age, it is a curse. Anyone who says otherwise is in an extraordinarily blessed position or is lying to themselves. Maybe one day I will feel better about it, but it will never be worth the agony and waste of time that it took to get to whatever happiness I may find in the future.
The only thing that gay people are looking for as far as kids go is to find the younger people who know they are gay so that they can educate them and show them that they don't have to be bitter, or lonely, or morally corrupt, or that they are not worthy of love. It is a really slippery slope when a person is cut off from family. Gay people know that more than anyone and I think that's why there are a good amount of gay people who struggle with committed relationships.
Because those people DO exist, especially in Christian households. And unlike straight people, there are no parents to talk to about this. No straight Creationist couple is going to understand their gay child's struggle. Unless they don't hold to biblical literalism it can be so hurtful to hear family members talk like they do.
My own mother has unknowingly hurt me many times when she has talked about how demented gay people are. How sick, unnatural, and cursed I AM and how I am going to hell.
She doesn't know that I am gay. Because people don't realize that there isn't a difference. None. I'm a person with feelings, hopes, and dreams too.
I know I started this long excapade with sarcasm, but I do hope whoever has taken the time to read this has a good day and that hopefully at least a bit of my long rant has reached you.
Is the Gospel inclusive? Yes. It call EVERYONE sinners. It calls EVERYONE to repent. It calls EVERYONE to trust I. And submit to Jesus.
Yes, "the Gospel welcomes everyone regardless of where they've been"...but it also assumes that you won't keep going down that road of sin, which I think is where the affirming side of the house gets it wrong. We are called to repent (turn away) from our sin. I think those that affirm would agree with that statement, but the problem then comes in when you are forced to deal with the reality that certain lifestyles are sinful. They wouldn't see the lifestyle as sinful, thus no need for repentance, thus they believe in a God that condones unrepentant sin.
27:06 this is a particularly bad argument from the pro-LGTV crowd. There's exactly *one* verse in the Bible that stops me from doing what I wanna do (Matt. 5:28). But am I gonna go and ignore the words of Jesus just because there are 22999 other verses that don't say this?
Excellent
Right or wrong why so much energy, i mean tons of energy spent on this subject? There are so many issues hirer on the priority list. Possession of wealth as stated.....and other issues that affect everyones lives on a daily basis.
You're right .There's another homophobic right-wing reformed lesbian , Rosaria Butterfield , who garners vast support through her addresses and interviews on youtube . She is an academic , a professor of 19th century English Literature , and a self proclaimed " born again Chrtistian " . All she ever rants about on these public addresses and interviews is the severe moral depravity of the entire LBGTQ community and how they should , like her , renounce that culture or otherwise burn in hell interminably . She invariably repeats the same ridiculously alarmist mantra of " The LBGTQ ethos is the reigning idol of today " As a Christian , my response to her would be , " You're delusional , the reigning idol of today is the same as it always has been since the fall ( however one might want to interpret that ) , and that is self-centredness and egoism which are the root cause of nearly all of humanities travails . We seek power , prestige and prosperity in our insatiable quest for self aggrandizement , and this usually involves victimizing our fellow beings . Endemic poverty , internecine warfare , tyranny ,etc , usually ensue from these selfish drives , and none of those resultant social scourges have anything to do with the LBGTQ culture " I just don't get it how some of these evangelicals are obbsessed with a misconceived exaggeration of the moral impropriety and social detriment of unconventional sexuality , and virtually ignore the real sinful cause of most of humankind's adversity and suffering ---self- centredness , whether personal , tribal , ethnic , or nationalistic , etc.
Yesterday I wrote a moderately expansive reply to your comment which in essence was supportive of your opinion above , but critical of some evangelists who crusade against the LGBTQ culture. Just now I discovered that it had been erased . My deleted comment was expressed respectfully without any vulgarity or slander . What a cowardly and censorious act ! I'm presuming that those responsible for this deletion are the party that established and now maintain this particular youtube channel , Sean McDowell . If though , I'm wrong about this presumption , I apologize .
Watched until 28 minutes, so sorry if I missed anything.
As a gay atheist, I love Sean's way of approaching the topic. Trying to see pro-LGBT arguments in their best light, but also showing that pro-LGBT arguments just don't really allign with the Bible.
I love christianity, I love studying it. But it's really simple. Christianity is homophobic, simple is that. You can't be a good christian and be gay. You have to choose. Either sacrifise that "thing that makes us human" "that little thing called love" or sacrifise christianity. But you can't do both. And I feel very sorry for the gay christians who are trying to do all kinds of mental theological gymnastics to talk themselves out of this.
Don't bother converting me. I DO NOT need to know why you are deserving of human love and why the love that I recieve from another human being is a sin in the eyes of the Lord. I DO NOT need to know why God is angry at someone with gender dysphoria (or how some people here put it "why I have to call a man a she". Because she has gender dysphoria, look it up! It's not just her having a desire to sin. It's your God making a mistake in creating her and now she's trying to correct it.)
Sorry for getting a bit passionate there. But you do not know what it's like to be LGBTQ, you just don't. Just like I do not know what it's like to be black or be a woman. So please, don't tell me how I can and can't love. That's just denying me my humanity. Imagine if I said you weren't allowed to love the other sex. Imagine if you heterosexuals were treated by both Scripture and humans like how christians treat gay people, how would that make you feel? Like you were denied a part of what makes you human. Tha'ts how it would make you feel.
Anyway, Sean, keep up the good work. As long as there will be christians, I hope they'll listen to you. You're a good honest, but also loving, christian willing to have conversation with anyone in good fatih.
I am so sorry you have been made to feel less of a person.
It can be characteristic of some of our churches - not God's way.
You are a valuable human being 🙂
@@margaretgrosskreuz8687 God Himself says that being gay is an abomination.
God Himself calls me an abomination.
In the eyes of the LORD, I guess I'm a valuable human being, but I'm also an abomination.
Just for sleeping with men instead of sleeping with women. Just for that simple thing.
Intellectualism whether applied to Bible, Constitution or any moral/social construct leads to the exclusion of the word “rebuke”. We can parse scripture along many lines in an effort to soften its convictions, but in the end John 3:1-21 is the main goal of all scripture. I can not justify anyone, yet scripture points to the fact that Justification is the act of being born again and God does it. The idea of intellectualizing the road to justification is a slippery slope created by relativism. God is not relative. He is the Alpha and Omega. We may not rebuke modern ideas, but what is clear through Scripture, God will. My question is always, are we softening the lines of scripture so much that we are leading folks astray?
I have no idea what you're talking about. "Intellectualism...leads to the exclusion of the word 'rebuke'". Everybody "rebukes" all the time, in all manner of philosophies and political systems and religions.
@@hongotedesco8931 To some degree you make my point. We do rebuke all the time but not from a scriptural basis. We rebuke/argue based on intellectual concepts that lead to no real rebuke, or understanding. First principals are not included in intellectualism. The way you are using the word is more 20th century arguing and not rebuking from the church/kingdom such as was considered in the first century. Thanks for the feedback.
@@harveylloyd7486 But see, I don't care if it's from a "scriptural basis", that means nothing to me as an atheist. And of course we do it based on "intellectual concepts" as that is what makes sense. And it does give us *better* understanding, way better than being shackled to nonsense written 2k years ago by unevolved people.
@@hongotedesco8931 Friedrich Nietzsche would disagree. From a intellectual perspective of course.
@@harveylloyd7486 Nietzsche is outdated. A man of his time.
The underlying issue here is how to interpret the Scriptures in the light of modern science. The modern sciences of cosmology and biology have caused reinterpretation of biblical creation. The same, one may argue, is true with regard to the science of psychology and our reinterpretation of biblical sexuality.
Hey Sean, how would you respond to the fact that Paul argues from ‘nature’ in both Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Corinthians 11:14-15. But making Romans 1 a universal moral argument still applied today, whereas 1 Corinthians 11 is about men having long hair, which is more, I guess, a cultural aspect, not universally applied.
31:22 Holy shit...😶
I like how he used the skeptical emoji... I'm all about that
I would highly suggest the I tried to be straight pod cast if you want to he stories from people who decided to love who they love and love god.
@32:00 - be considerate to explain the differences between historical "slavery" and what here in America and other more recent atrocities recognize as 'slavery'. Slavery historically and Biblically was not what we consider slavery. In fact, America practiced a form of Biblical "slavery" (actually, indentured servitude) for nearly two hundred years. What atrocities were committed was stealing people from one place and selling them to other people as laborers/possessions. Stealing people and selling people is slavery. Joseph was sold off into slavery. Not being able to pay one's debt or taxes lent to others who could pay it and the person unable was then offered a chance to work off the debt instead of having to be put in jail. Indentured servitude was encouraged and considered ethical. Today, in America, the welfare system is not ethical nor helpful to individuals, for the most part it is taken advantage of by lazy people. Lazy people don't deserve assistance - THAT'S Biblical!
The world IS BETTER OFF without slavery, but the world is worse off without indentured servitude.
While I don't agree with the historic interpretations of Onan in Rabbinic literature or the writings of Augustine -- I think that it'd be worth pointing out around the 22 minute mark that the interpretation that the Bible *is* concerned with primarily procreative sex (as opposed to Onanism) when thinking about that "natural" order of things goes back almost 2000 years.
That said, I think Romans is still addressing homosexual intercourse, but the notion, mentioned by Scott here, that the ancient view of "natural" sexuality has no concept of procreative intent (because there was no "contraception" at the time) associated with it is overly simplistic and is pretty easily countered by pointing back to a couple millennia of Old Testament interpretation. So would love to have heard a bit more of nuance here.
Patriarchal culture is biblical and doesn't mean that women are demeaned or mistreated within one. Sean's conversation partner here is wrong on this point.
2:40 to 2:50 the COMPLETE opposite is true. That's a first lie.
Necessarily not necessarily the teaching that’s harmful if it’s done with love and grace and truth and dealt on the relationship and then a call to repentance. In my opinion, what is harmful is if they are deceived according to Romans one, and they’re caught up in their sin, and so they’re going to use whatever reason they can to justify their sin.