This explains why rattan shield swordsmen are always depicted with a saber rather than a double-bladed jian. With a jian you’ll more likely slice your arm when carrying the sword like that.
This is the first time I've seen a complete discussion and reproduction of the rattan shield with the javelin and the waist saber. It's a very recommended video, it's really great! dear brother!👍👍👍
Javelin is an underrated weapon. It's true that it wasn't used as much in Northern China/Mongolia/Korea/Japan due to the prevalence of archery in those places, however it was pretty ubiquitous in Southern China and SE Asia.
@@Finnv893 It's not a niche weapon at all. In fact apart from Northeast Asia (Northern China, Korea, Mongolia, and Japan), javelin was pretty common elsewhere in the world, including in ancient and medieval Europe.
@@weifan9533 It is functional in specific situations, outside of those bounds and you might risk getting them thrown back at ya. Unlike archers and slingers, everybody's got hands, even rabbles looking for something to throw other than rocks.
@@Finnv893 Then how you explain the fact that the Romans with their scutum shield and pilum javelins conquered almost the entirety of Europe? It definitely worked quite well.
About the stance. Low shield stances are still done in Borneo, along with the footwork. The shield is different (the shield they use is actually one of the Chinese iron age variants), but you can see how the feet go through all the low stances shown in the manuals. It is very tough for the legs, and also requires excellent mobility. For example, here: th-cam.com/video/0Iin_3pIaUc/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for watching and sharing the video! Yes, one of the later postures in the rattan shield manual also has very low footwork similar to what is shown in that video. Their shield do remind me of much older chinese shield design as well. I will look into it more!
This rattan shield is probably one of the most practical yet hardly mentioned Chinese martial arts weapons out there. The Kung fu world today could use a dash of practicality and imo this shield is a good place to start.
Yes that is a Gale Wind! Unfortunately, I won’t be doing a video on that one for reasons which will become clear in the coming weeks, but overall I would say that it is a pretty nice sword. The Grand Marshal has a little more heft in the hilt, while the Gale Wind has a more slender handle and a blade that is light and well suited for cuts and thrusts. Aside from this, the Gale Wind is a little more simple and utilitarian and it has a nut pommel which is not really historical but makes a lot of sense for a modern budget cutting sword.
Another thing to note is the Romans did weigh their pila (Roman javelin) towards the point on one of tgeir javelin designed for breaking formations and neutralizing sheilds. Maybe the focus on Chinese javelin was more focused on breaking formations?
According to the text, the main purpose of the javelin is to outreach enemy spearman to take them out or make them flinch if that doesn’t work. In many ways, throwing all of the javelin together is kind of like making a formation flinch so there are similar principles at play.
In the manuals, the image of the javalineer appears to show them holding the javalin by the end, with the end pointing backwards. Might it actually be thrown in an overhead swinging motion, a bit like a Roman plumbata, with some crouching down lunging mid-swing to add the shift of the body's center of mass to the throw's velocity? A bit like slinging.
Thanks for watching! As I stated in the video I am no expert when it comes to throwing weapons. Given that the text only says to move the javelin and the feet together it is entirely possible that the javelin is thrown with more of an arc, though I think that it may be better to treat this javelin more like a pilum then a plumbata due to the length.
There were historical javelins thrown in a spinning motion, but these were very short, and had tips on both ends. Typically thrown down from castle walls. The position of the javelin here however matches the way the Japanese samurai pull arrows ot of the ebira holder. Perhaps the javelin has just been pulled out (from where?) and is being readied. Next move would be to rotate the javelin for the throwing grip.
Another possibility is that this being a military demonstration, the javelins are thrown with the blunt end forward to avoid damaging the tip, or to avoid provocation if there is high ranking audience nearby.
Hey, Brother, let me know when you build yours; I'm wanting to make some myself, but without specs, it may be a lot of guesswork. Also, I agree with the positioning of the dao inside the shield. I've tried it several different ways, and the way you show here has the least opportunity to catch yourself on the edge. Carrying it blade down, it'll eventually get caught on fingernails. Dang near did it to myself, practicing fei biao.
Thanks for watching! I will definitely keep you posted if I find something more specific about javelin length. I believe that some Qing texts may give more details but I will have to check and make sure. It is also good to hear about your experience holding the dao. It seems to me that putting it on the forearm is much better and most people seem to agree which makes me more confident in that interpretation.
Great showcase ScholarGeneral! I wonder if the difference in the position of the sabre in the illustration is just an exaggeration on the part of the artist just to assure everyone “yes the dao his hidden back here”, in the way that perspective gets wonky sometimes when trying to show someone hidden in a castle etc (or like in a modern cartoon where the character is flashing crossed fingers to the viewer). Love your interpretation
Thanks for watching! yes the next question for me is why do the depictions seem to contradict the text when it comes to how you hold the sword while throwing the javelin. The idea you mention here of making it overly obvious in the image seems very interesting. One issue I see is that the curvature of the sword is reversed. If the sword resting on the forearm was simply extended out to make it visible then the edge would face towards the user and the point would face towards the enemy, but the depictions seem to imply the opposite. Unfortunately, we can’t go back and ask them so we may be missing something.
What length was the spear in this case? Is it as short as the one your sparring partner used? My understanding is that most Ming spears were essentially pikes, as Cheng Zong You described.
The length of spears in this period varied greatly. Most of them range from 10-18 feet. The one I am using here is shorter because I do not a longer spear shaft due to shipping costs.
Sources state that it can stop arrows from warbows if made properly. I have not tested one yet, but some have and it is fairly equivalent to a migration era “viking-style” shield. A strong cut can bite into the shield but then it will get stuck and this actually plays into the advantage of the shield user.
The shield I use here is woven out of rattan. In areas without rattan shields could be made out of other types of cane or things like willow branches. The kalkan is a smaller woven buckler which is similar to the tengpai.
They were quite widely used in Southern China and SE Asia in the past. The reason why you don't hear about them often in Asian wars is because the Asian history that westerners are interested in are either those of the Central Asian steppe nomads like the Xiongnu (Huns) and the Mongols or those of Northeast Asia like the ancient Chinese/Koreans/Japanese, whereas relatively little attention has been given to Southern China and SE Asia.
@@weifan9533 There is definitely a biases towards northern chinese military history though I am not sure if it is limited to the West, many of the sources also talk about northern conflicts a lot as well.
@@thescholar-general5975 Yes it's not just in the west unfortunately, Chinese historiography itself is pretty Sinocentric and tends to focus a lot more on the Central Plains and Northern China than the South.
This explains why rattan shield swordsmen are always depicted with a saber rather than a double-bladed jian. With a jian you’ll more likely slice your arm when carrying the sword like that.
I hadn’t thought of that! It is certainly true that one of the nice things about dao is that you can brace against the spine of the blade.
This is the first time I've seen a complete discussion and reproduction of the rattan shield with the javelin and the waist saber. It's a very recommended video, it's really great! dear brother!👍👍👍
Thanks for watching! I find that they work together really well!
Javelin is an underrated weapon. It's true that it wasn't used as much in Northern China/Mongolia/Korea/Japan due to the prevalence of archery in those places, however it was pretty ubiquitous in Southern China and SE Asia.
Yes, both the javelin and the rattan shield are well suited to the humid environments in southern China and Southeast Asia.
I don't think niche weapons can be underrated.
@@Finnv893 It's not a niche weapon at all. In fact apart from Northeast Asia (Northern China, Korea, Mongolia, and Japan), javelin was pretty common elsewhere in the world, including in ancient and medieval Europe.
@@weifan9533 It is functional in specific situations, outside of those bounds and you might risk getting them thrown back at ya.
Unlike archers and slingers, everybody's got hands, even rabbles looking for something to throw other than rocks.
@@Finnv893 Then how you explain the fact that the Romans with their scutum shield and pilum javelins conquered almost the entirety of Europe? It definitely worked quite well.
A nother great demonstration,fantastic viedo!
Thank you
About the stance. Low shield stances are still done in Borneo, along with the footwork. The shield is different (the shield they use is actually one of the Chinese iron age variants), but you can see how the feet go through all the low stances shown in the manuals. It is very tough for the legs, and also requires excellent mobility. For example, here: th-cam.com/video/0Iin_3pIaUc/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for watching and sharing the video! Yes, one of the later postures in the rattan shield manual also has very low footwork similar to what is shown in that video. Their shield do remind me of much older chinese shield design as well. I will look into it more!
3:07 Yes! My Shifu teaches a sword and shield form and you start it with the saber cradled next to the shield in this exact fashion
That is great to hear! What style to you study?
@@thescholar-general5975 it's a wushu school so it's many styles but there is a saber and Shield form that he teaches that holds it like that
Very interesting video 🤔
Very cool! So glad you covered this as it is over shadowed by the crossbow.
Yeah we gotta give the javelin its love too
@@thescholar-general5975 Honestly feel the Chinese get under rated hard when it comes to their style of javelin. It's pretty unique.
the combination of spear hand shield and sword is a standard for the common soldiers in most parts of the the classical and medieval world
You are correct. This technique definitely has parallels with other parts of history!
This rattan shield is probably one of the most practical yet hardly mentioned Chinese martial arts weapons out there. The Kung fu world today could use a dash of practicality and imo this shield is a good place to start.
Yes, I also agree that it is very overlooked and it is a good way to bring some practical applications back into chinese sword work
Nice vedio
You got the Gale Wind at the back! Is there a review coming? I would like to hear your view on it comparing to the Grand Marshall.
Yes that is a Gale Wind! Unfortunately, I won’t be doing a video on that one for reasons which will become clear in the coming weeks, but overall I would say that it is a pretty nice sword.
The Grand Marshal has a little more heft in the hilt, while the Gale Wind has a more slender handle and a blade that is light and well suited for cuts and thrusts.
Aside from this, the Gale Wind is a little more simple and utilitarian and it has a nut pommel which is not really historical but makes a lot of sense for a modern budget cutting sword.
Really interesting stuff!!!
Thanks for watching! I hope you are well!
@@thescholar-general5975 yes! Everything good! Thank you! Training, shooting, always the same life ;-) ;-)
Another thing to note is the Romans did weigh their pila (Roman javelin) towards the point on one of tgeir javelin designed for breaking formations and neutralizing sheilds. Maybe the focus on Chinese javelin was more focused on breaking formations?
According to the text, the main purpose of the javelin is to outreach enemy spearman to take them out or make them flinch if that doesn’t work. In many ways, throwing all of the javelin together is kind of like making a formation flinch so there are similar principles at play.
Not specifically related to Qi Jiguang, but Ming army did use javelins to neutralise shields during Jingnan campaign.
In the manuals, the image of the javalineer appears to show them holding the javalin by the end, with the end pointing backwards. Might it actually be thrown in an overhead swinging motion, a bit like a Roman plumbata, with some crouching down lunging mid-swing to add the shift of the body's center of mass to the throw's velocity? A bit like slinging.
Thanks for watching! As I stated in the video I am no expert when it comes to throwing weapons. Given that the text only says to move the javelin and the feet together it is entirely possible that the javelin is thrown with more of an arc, though I think that it may be better to treat this javelin more like a pilum then a plumbata due to the length.
There were historical javelins thrown in a spinning motion, but these were very short, and had tips on both ends. Typically thrown down from castle walls. The position of the javelin here however matches the way the Japanese samurai pull arrows ot of the ebira holder. Perhaps the javelin has just been pulled out (from where?) and is being readied. Next move would be to rotate the javelin for the throwing grip.
Another possibility is that this being a military demonstration, the javelins are thrown with the blunt end forward to avoid damaging the tip, or to avoid provocation if there is high ranking audience nearby.
good stuff. I always thought the reverse grip with the saber was a little odd. Your interpretation seems more practical.
Thanks for watching!
Hey, Brother, let me know when you build yours; I'm wanting to make some myself, but without specs, it may be a lot of guesswork.
Also, I agree with the positioning of the dao inside the shield. I've tried it several different ways, and the way you show here has the least opportunity to catch yourself on the edge. Carrying it blade down, it'll eventually get caught on fingernails. Dang near did it to myself, practicing fei biao.
Thanks for watching! I will definitely keep you posted if I find something more specific about javelin length. I believe that some Qing texts may give more details but I will have to check and make sure.
It is also good to hear about your experience holding the dao. It seems to me that putting it on the forearm is much better and most people seem to agree which makes me more confident in that interpretation.
Like the "Rattan army" in conqueror's blade says: "Rattan is stronger than steel"
I haven’t played conquerer’s blade before but I may have to check it out now!
Great showcase ScholarGeneral! I wonder if the difference in the position of the sabre in the illustration is just an exaggeration on the part of the artist just to assure everyone “yes the dao his hidden back here”, in the way that perspective gets wonky sometimes when trying to show someone hidden in a castle etc (or like in a modern cartoon where the character is flashing crossed fingers to the viewer).
Love your interpretation
Thanks for watching! yes the next question for me is why do the depictions seem to contradict the text when it comes to how you hold the sword while throwing the javelin. The idea you mention here of making it overly obvious in the image seems very interesting.
One issue I see is that the curvature of the sword is reversed. If the sword resting on the forearm was simply extended out to make it visible then the edge would face towards the user and the point would face towards the enemy, but the depictions seem to imply the opposite. Unfortunately, we can’t go back and ask them so we may be missing something.
What length was the spear in this case? Is it as short as the one your sparring partner used? My understanding is that most Ming spears were essentially pikes, as Cheng Zong You described.
The length of spears in this period varied greatly. Most of them range from 10-18 feet. The one I am using here is shorter because I do not a longer spear shaft due to shipping costs.
Chinese shields were originally square and the round 1s were adapted later in history
Yes, the rattan shield became the main one in the late ming. In the future I plan to do a video on other chinese shields.
How durable is a rattan shield? Genuinely asking.
Sources state that it can stop arrows from warbows if made properly. I have not tested one yet, but some have and it is fairly equivalent to a migration era “viking-style” shield. A strong cut can bite into the shield but then it will get stuck and this actually plays into the advantage of the shield user.
how the wicker shield is made?
The shield I use here is woven out of rattan. In areas without rattan shields could be made out of other types of cane or things like willow branches. The kalkan is a smaller woven buckler which is similar to the tengpai.
Cool, haven't hear about javelins in Asian wars🤠👍🏿
Thanks for watching!
They were quite widely used in Southern China and SE Asia in the past. The reason why you don't hear about them often in Asian wars is because the Asian history that westerners are interested in are either those of the Central Asian steppe nomads like the Xiongnu (Huns) and the Mongols or those of Northeast Asia like the ancient Chinese/Koreans/Japanese, whereas relatively little attention has been given to Southern China and SE Asia.
@@weifan9533 There is definitely a biases towards northern chinese military history though I am not sure if it is limited to the West, many of the sources also talk about northern conflicts a lot as well.
@@thescholar-general5975 Yes it's not just in the west unfortunately, Chinese historiography itself is pretty Sinocentric and tends to focus a lot more on the Central Plains and Northern China than the South.
@@weifan9533 Do you know of any good monographs focused on military history in southern China in Chinese or English?
W vid mr seely
my god your pronunciation is damn good
Thanks for watching! There is always more work to do when it comes to improving language skills.
藤牌！一直到清末都有在使用的藤牌！可惜现在练习藤牌的人少，这个在中国国内的武术视频里都不常见的！藤牌手动作非常灵活，除了您展示的那些招式还会做出贴地翻滚的动作。除了藤牌还会有藤甲，一些水兵穿这个（渡江以甲弁为筏），陆军也穿，比如萨尔浒之战中，清军就发现明军康应乾部皆执莨筅竹杆长枪，披藤皮甲，南明与清军作战时，清军刀击郑成功藤盔牌皆不入，大败走。另外中国的藤牌有些还会画虎纹，士兵也穿虎衣，据说可以让敌人的士兵和战马感到害怕。然而实际效果其实是存疑的。比如1840年面对英国人的刺刀冲锋，藤牌手就失败了。另外这个藤牌很多人会好奇它是不是很结实，它其实是通过藤条竹条阴干以后劈成蔑条编织成的，还要桐油的洗刷，确实是非常轻并且柔韧。