During a business trip to visit a provider, here's how I saw how plastic pellets are colored to produce a master batch (we buy pellets not filament): a pallet bag worth of pellets is dumped in a hopper, a guy adds a few "cups" of pigments powder (who knows what leftover pigments are in the hopper from the previous batch), everything goes in a mixer before going in the extruder, and out come the colored beads after a while. The guy didn't weigh the bag and didn't weigh the amount of pigment he added. The cups he used weren't equally filled each time either. So there you go. No need to tell you we didn't do business with them.
use pigment colorant Master batch over powders and cheap black MB is always going to be Carbon not pigment so you get out only what goes in the extruder!
@@rexxx927 Carbon is a pigment, given that it scatters light... Anything that scatters light, is a pigment. Anything that is "transparent" to light, is a Dye.
@@kwaad2 yes i get that but in master batches they are 2 different things! and the base material in the MB is made from is an impact on the blended resins
I solved the color issue by only printing in natural. It's not just about consistent color, but the pigments they put into the filament actually affect the print qualities, and ultimately the natural variants *always* print the best. Don't really care about aesthetics because I'm not printing toys... Here's something the whole industry has kind of missed though -- the fact that filament comes on spools. It's stupid that it's packaged in spools. Not only does this produce a spool that's just trash and hard to recycle, but it's harder on your extruder and other mechanisms. Every time you want a little more filament, you have to overcome the rotational inertia of the ENTIRE SPOOL. EVERY TIME. The spool based architecture has produced some hilariously spectacular print failures. They should have adopted a Reelex style winding which completely does away with the spool. You just pull the material straight out of the box. Requires less force and again -- NO SPOOL. This should have been done decades ago but the 3d printing community was very quick to latch onto bad legacy habits. We're just stuck now.
Just learned about Reelex through this comment and yes, this would be the perfect solution. The only concern is MAYBE this packaging process isn't ideal for something as brittle and prone to tangle as a 1.75mm thick string of plastic. But I'm sure engineers can figure this out.
Stratasys uses Reelex or something similar for their large quantities of filament. We order 500 cubic inches of material at work that dispenses straight from a large cardboard box with no internal spool. I believe they brand these as the “xtend” series
Great rant Sir, the price of ‘good’ filament is crazy high and now a lot of companies have moved to 750g spools also. Awesome video as always mate 👍🇦🇺😊
Regarding spools - how about reusing them? Bambu Lab and Prusa both sell refills so that you can reuse spools. I've been using refills as much as I can and I love it
I've been using FIberlogy's refills for the past 3 years, now I've switched to filament from 3DPOWER (0.03 vs 0.02mm tolerance) and there is zero difference for 2/3 the cost. The only issue I have is that the refill spools are not more widespread, because I really like the idea of not having a house full of empty spools.
Due to the Reponse to this video we have decided to push forward with manufacturing filament. No full details yet (expect that we have already purchased another extruder to suppor this production). We are planning out the best way to go about it so that it does not distract from our core business and is the most help to the community that it can be, while also being sustainable. You have hear first comments here. We will keep you updated as it develops. th-cam.com/video/NwLIRZAQ2g8/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Slant3D
Awesome! I really like what Prusa does with posting their QC data for each spool for the customer to verify. Might be something to adopt for your process.
I freaking whole heartedly agree with every single point... even as a "hobbyist" I struggle to buy a whole bunch of filament because of cost and it prevents me from growing my 3D printing business. I have to either wait weeks for filament or pay an insane markup "for convenience" and "better quality" and "locally made" just to make parts for clients and that, in turn, makes me more expensive than the injection molding counterparts. It's ridiculous.
@spools and sizes: I like the master spool approach where you buy a roll of filament only. No unneccessary waste, and it pays off to build an expensive spool once, that really works well and takes a lot of (ab)use. For large scale production, where you want to avoid manual labor, you can have a standardized 3kg spool that can be sent back and you get a refund on your purchase. 3kg are too much for makers at home. I have a 800g spool of TPU at home, it's about a year old and I'm sure I used less than 200g. In the meantime it takes up space and it ages. It also binds capital that some makers don't have much of.
If you're doing it at scale, maybe it would be worth making a rig to automatically inspect, splice and re-spool filament onto bigger spools. Would only need one machine to cover many printers, and may pay for itself in fewer changeovers and failed prints
@@fredpinczuk7352 There is one fairly universal standard of color for physical things, Pantone. Though you can use any alternative that uses the same numbers to the same actual color ;-)
@@tymoteuszkazubski2755 Exactly! Now, lets name a single brand that advertise a pantone or CMYK or other standard on their filament packaging? They don't, for the simple reason that no one will pay for that level of conformity. Mfg filament within those parameters would make it very expensive. And Winny McWinnerson here is all ready complaining about cost.
@@fredpinczuk7352 FiberForce makes Pantone PLA. I bet there are more manufacturers for Pantone compliant filament makers that target businesses rather than hobbyists
filament typically costs a lot more here in the UK than it does in USA. The very cheapest ABS i can get is USD $23.99. ASA more like $50. In USA Sunlu ABS $11 per kilo if you take lucky dip colours,
Same here in the Netherlands, only reliable way to get decent cheap filament is to find a few friends who also need the colour you want and then ordering them in bulk from china.
@@slant3d Mate if You can bring quality filament here and beat the incumbent pricing structure I'm in. I'm with You all the way. I'll switch, I'll recommend You at every opportunity, etc. Once You get reputation for well priced quality You'll have it made here. Europe in general, I suspect.
Great rant! When Philips was developing 3D printing, it quickly realized that it had to extrude its own filament for all the reasons you identified: Commodity materials, bulk size spools, consistency, etc.
I agree 100% on the size of the filament spool. We always go with larger spool sizes over the 1kg "standard". 1kg is just terrible for 3D printing business since it is simply not enough. 2.5~8kg is the sweet spot from my own experience.
I think you are the first person to mention this: As a hobbyist, 1kg spools are inconvenient if you want to keep multiple colours. These 1kg spools take A LOT of space when you have multiple of them. But the biggest issue is that stuff like PLA *will* degrade no matter how well you store it. If you are a hobbyist and buy 1kg of colour that you're going to use a couple of times per year, after two years you might as well throw away half of the spool. Some brands last less, some last longer, but after some time all of them start having issues during printing.
You're right. My old PLA is extremely brittle. "Baking" the old filament in a food dehydrator overnight seems to help. Keeping it stored in a dark place seems to help too. Neither is as good as new filament. ... and the companies that ship spools in cardboard boxes with no vacuum bag just need to stop.
We live in Alberta which is super dry (think nosebleeds, cracked skin on your hands and the winters dry out the air even more) and I haven't had this problem with PLA filament. As far as I know it's moisture that causes brittleness but feel free to add.
@@psedach Yeah, that's mostly it. From what I know, UV is also bad for filament, but that's likely not a concern unless your filament closet has a window or something.
I've had stupid good luck with PETG, seriously a translucent blue spool that I got before not being able to print for 2 years, spent 3 months in an outdoor storage unit in PHX in the summer, dust was covering everthing in the unit from dust storms, PLA more brittle then a cracker, I've been going through the Blue PETG and it still prints great.
I have open spools that are over 6 years old and still print as good as the day I opened them, after drying. I live in humidity central, Minnesota, to boot. If you have PLA filament going bad after two years, there is something seriously wrong with how your store it and use it.
Very nice wrap up ! I agree on the spool sizes. Of course nobody wants to replace all 1kg spools with 3-5kg but diversity would be nice. As a hobbyist, 90% of what I print end up black or white. And I’d be very to buy cheaper bigger spools of those.
I was a buyer for an injection molding company. There is always going to be at least a slight variation of color in the batches. The same thing goes for ink in printers, etc.
Love your channel. I’ve got 31 printers and will have 50-60 by the end of the year. The info is incredible for the industry and helps a lot. Could you do a video on how to make you own filament some what reliably. I really want to be able to produce batches of 20-40kg of a color but barrier to entry is to hard
@@slant3d how much would you say makes it viable?? I’ve tried to do my own calculations and I was estimating when I’m running 100 printers 247 it would start making sense. I 3d print multi colored jewelry so I need control over my own colors for products
@@slant3d I don't think you did the math correctly on the CAPEX if you are in fact consuming that amount of filament. You're ROI could be as little as 6 months. And since your filament would be perfect, you could sell the excess capacity at lower cost. Win-win.
For print farms and larger manufacturing of 3D printed goods - yeah larger sizes should be available for you. I completely agree. But I think the 1kg spools are okay for individuals like myself, "makers" who print a few things for around the house.
Maybe 500g spools are more practical for the lot of us, we have to worry more about filament degradation when handling 1kg spools. But for 500g spools to be viable, they have to be really cheap and I don't really see companies wanting to go for this.
I just wish there were more options for smaller spools. Yes, there are some 250g spools, but they're usually more than half of the price of a kg spool, and 250g is still quite a lot if you just want to see if the color is as you imagined or just a small print. Azurefilm sells 50g samples, which are perfect for that purpose.
@@turmfalcke I suppose it depends. Some people make large prints all the time. Personally, I make prints a bit on the small size, I don't think I would benefit from larger spools. Someone who is into miniatures might even see 1kg as pretty large. It also varies by color. White and black are my most commonly used colors, for them 1kg is fine, even a bit larger would be okay. Other colors I use infrequently will last a pretty long time with a 1kg spool.
As someone who just bought his first 3D printer, this rant was very helpful. Now I at least know to cut off the bent piece of filament so it doesn't destroy my prints. Looking forward to the official Slant 3D filament!
I’ve been going back through all the older Slant videos and I’m so glad I did. The bit about the turtle not being able to suck a filament spool up its nose is absolute gold!! 😂😂😂
Absolutely hear you on the 3kg roll being standard. I have a lot of changeover and I have the end of the roll problem where my printer will destroy itself by pulling the spool off the spoolholder at the end of the roll.
I'm a hobbyist and recently had to order 3.5kg spools from FormFutura since 1kg was out of stock. Will do this again for the colors that I use most (black, white) since its really a breeze if you have the space 2 or 3 of those things near the printer.
I agree on spool size. I have converted my home 3D printer operation to 3-5 KG spools. I would love to see empty spool weights marked on the spools (Tare Weight??). I now use a scale to figure out how much is left on a spool. It allows me to judge how much is left on a spool. The scale allowed clean up my left over spools. I could easily match left over filament pieces with print jobs. I also decided to go to 3-5 KG spools to also eliminate waste. I tended to use t or three colors, and buy multiple 1 KG spools of each color. 3 KG spools made sense. The scale I bought is a 5 KG lab scale. It will handle a 3 KG spool. But it will also weigh down to 0.01 gm. so I can calibrate the printer with it.
I hereby apologise for this slab I'm about to drop. As I have been working as a Filament Manufacturer (tough not of plastic) for 3 years now I'd like to add my input on your takes. Mostly about what I agree with, and what I think needs more nuance. Filament Overprice. In the early days of FFF, filament was kind of expected to be overpriced, as the scale of production and sales was so small it simply forced it that way. Now, although it is still dwarfed by Injection Moulding, filament spools are sold in much larger quantities, however the price is going down much. You can blame it on incompetence or the money hungry, I'm sure some manufacturers are guilty of this. But there are some ways to explain this at least partially. First, as you said filament extrusion is a relatively old process, but compared to IM we have barely started using it for FFF as it's popularization came criminaly late. Also yes the raw material is very cheap... for IM. But granules for Filament Extrusion are usually not the same as for IM. Manufacturers do spend some time with R&D to formulate filaments that are both easy to print and get you a strong part printed, usually by adding several additives to the plastic. Add colors to the mix and things get even more complicated. The addition of one pigment can ruin the filament and you end up having slightly different formulations for each color. I mean, designing pigments for Filament Manufacturing is a job on its own. Since the challenges to achieve this are different to that of IM, it means that the Feedstock for filament extrusion is different than that for IM. Which leads to an other problem: Filament Manufacturers are usually not Feedstock Manufacturers. Filament Extrusion is a spec of dust for FS Manufacturers so when they have to clean their whole setup to make a "small" custom batch for a Filament Manufacturer obviously that price will not be as competitive. I don't know if all of this is able to justify the price, I just wanted to show that things are more complicated than they look. However as you said, as things go, the prices are sure to go down, they have to, and hopefuly sooner than later. For Color Consistancy I don't think there's much that can be done. The problem lies more on the Feedstock Manufacturing part than the Filament Manufacturing one I think. As long as things will be done in batches, this effect will occur. IM doesn't really have this issue because everything gets mixed in the extruder, so the color averages out on the final part. Though if you compare two part made from the same machine using two different batches of FS that are supposed the same color, there you will see a difference. Its just not a real issue because the difference is subtle enough than it doesn't matter for two different parts (until it doesn't, I have seen some off colored legos before...). For 3D printing the issue is that you can experience a batch discontinuity halfway through the part and that really stings the eye. What they could do is label every spool with a batch name (Actually we do this, but again... not plastic), so that when the filament runs out, you can resume it with a spool of the same batch if you have one and hopefuly not have any discontinuity. That would require a more complicated spool management though. For spool sizes I don't quite understand. I thought 2.5 kg spool were already available, maybe they are not that available? I absolutely agree that 1 kg spool is just too much for hobbying though. The end ties are absolutely ridiculous! And the solution to it is even more simple than what you showed (though it would absolutely work). What we do is pass the filament through the spool inner hole, we just dont tie it. You only have to hold the filament in place with a finger for a turn, then you can let go and it holds. I agree that if quality means not shipping defects, that's not quality, and that definetely does not justify the price. That said, there are some formulations that are better than others. The difference being in the amount of R&D the manufacturer is willing to invest. Which could justify the price, but let not lie, it is drowned in this not-shipping-defects issue. Also most Manufacturers don't recycle their filament because they don't make the Feedstock, so they don't even have the means to recycle. Maybe the ones that don't send defects are the ones that DO recycle their filament. I recycle my filaments regularly and I can tell you, usually the filament is even better after extruding it a second time. I don't really know what to think of the chinese manufacturers pressure, on one hand they do have a record for disregarding intellectual property, but in this case things are more protected by know-how rather than by patents so I do think it applies. On the other hand I think they are just taking things more seriously, going for a bigger scale with better organization, tighening the margins. And maybe a little lack of R&D so lesser quality? Haven't tested yet so its just a guess. If the difference in quality isn't significant enough compared to the difference in price it can be worth it though. It could also happen to be that the quality is the same or even better, I don't know. On a final note: Your farm is very impressive! Keep up the good work!
I've got a 3kg filament spool of "transition" filament (produced when s2witching colors between batches (it's cheaper and for prototyping color is not important)) from Rosa3D. I can't use it as the spool is too big for my spool holder, and even if I had a bigger holder, it would warp the frame of my printer due to sheer mass. So for now I have to rewind it onto smaller spool. Stratasys made big spools for their proprietary industrial printers. They were expensive as hell, because were closed in heavy metal boxes. Switch to metal spools made from recycled american cars - problem solved. Unless we make a genetically modified plants that grow spools, it will be energy-intense process. So if filament manufacturer is charging so much, then force him to pay for proper recycling of the spools. The manufacturer might offer a discount for sending them back empty spools to be reused. If the spool is not broken, then they can rewind it... As for that China thing: USA is big on free, competitive market, so why should anyone whine, when some other country takes advantage of that market to deliver a cheaper commodity?
about the spools, we should have nice durable metal spools that you keep. And have a universal standard with regard to core size and then every company offers spooless filament. Could even have printers ship with said refillable master spool
Seems like some of this could be addressed by the printer manufacturers, for example, a small well in the nozzle, about 2.5 to 3 times the filament size could eliminate mis-prints caused by notches in the filaments, and a different type of sensor in the flow line could tell if the feed stops, due to kinking, or any other reason...
Slant, I just bought my first ever 3d printer. I'm tech savvy, and have built fpv drones and other things. Setup was 20min, and the benchy came out perfect. After that, all hell breaks loose. I ordered a sonic pad to make things quicker/easier. The sonic pad during the setup froze. I bricked the ender, and i thought the sonic pad as well. After chatting with creality, and watching a few youtube vids, 4 hours later I had both re-flashed. Touch pad still doesn't work. I rip apart the sonic pad and realize 2 ribbon cables are NOT LOCKED. Sweet, what else did they miss. I'm now printing my first print from cura. I'm printing the Sonic Pad top mount. NOW. The filament. Jesus christ. Why can't they just make a runout sensor with 4 rollers inside to detect whether filament has gouges in it? it would cost $50, and they could use them between main production & packaging. Someone needs to just produce filament, who actually prints themselves. Good vid. Thanks!
I mostly use inland filament from microcenter the way they wrap their spool leaves a tiny dog ear at the end that i have never had fail to feed through the filament censor. They also offer spooless filament that you put in their reusable spools which goes for about $17 a kg. Doesn't solve all your issues but they are the best i have found.
Question regarding some leftover filament in the pipes, should I throw it, once 15 cm are left outside the extruder + 1 meter in the pipe to the nozzle? Which means each real I will lose 1.15m per 1kg reel.
ur so right about hobby places over-charging for everything. for the longest time i thought I needed to get official warhammer paints and turns out they are the same as the dollar store paints. Except u pay more for less. Another thing is the varnish, I paid almost 15$ for a a 15ml bottle of Vallejo varnish when they are just watering down school glue and putting it into bottles. The dollar store sell Mod Podge for like $1.00 and its the same thing and you get a lot more. I want to start a recycling program in my city where we take all the plastic bottles and recycle them into filament for re-sale.
It's nice to see someone that is using 3D printing as a business trying to bring about change that will benefit hobbyists. After all the 3D printing market has the hobbyists to thank for the state of 3D printing today. 3D printing is something I do for me, I enjoy it. but the price of quality filament is getting a bit insane.
I just got into my hands few leftover prusament spools. They have the best filament end clip ever. There's cavity on the inside of the spool where filament end can be inserted. Others have just plain old 2 holes where filament gets bent and you have to snap it off before printing. It's so simple to make the same thing on other spools. Maybe Prusa has patent on that I don't know. End of their filament is also not bent 90 degrees. But I yet have to test it without snapping it off. They also use hexagon pattern to use less plastic. Or not I didn't measured it so maybe that's bullshit.
I think you're dead wrong on the filament size. As you indicated, the majority of filament is sold to hobbyist. We often don't have a means of using a bigger spool. And we often don't print often enough or in quantities large enough to go through larger spools. I hear your point about smaller spools (I bought a 1kg spool of "flesh-tone" to print a multi-color Jean-Luc Picard facepalming and am probably never going to use the other 990 grams of that spool), but I don't have a way of using a 3.5kg spool. And even though I know it's costing me less per print, paying over $100 for a single spool of filament is uncomfortable for me. As far as the spools themselves are concerned, the solution is to lose them all together. Agree on a standard inner diameter and spool width, then offer designs people can print at home to put the filament on. There are a few manufacturers that sell filament that way, but we need a standard to make it really work. I don't want to have to keep one set of spools for when I buy from one provider, and another set when I buy from someone else. (I feel like it's back in the 80's when every computer was on a different operating system and had different storage standards. You couldn't take a document from an Apple II and use it on an Atari 800 or a Commodore 64. Heck, you couldn't even get it over to the other machine without going through a ton of hoops.)
‼ Endlich mal jemand der alles anspricht was einem bei 3D Drucken eh schon auffällt. Danke für dieses Video echt klasse und grüße aus Deutschland. ‼ ‼ Finally someone who appeals everything that you already notice about 3D printing. Thanks for this great video and greetings from Germany. ‼
I had a spool of 3Dxtech have a kink and it got jammed up, I called them, they sent be a brand new spool for free, and I have never seen a kink in the end of their spools again. They are expensive but they listen, so positive story
IMO #1. Gauge OD is the biggest issue 1.71-1.81 is found and also pulses from the extruders back pressure causing surges across the rolls #2. The windup, blocking and shaping the filament onto the roll tensions and temperatures they are rolled up to loose or to tight #3. The masterbatch variations are from the hopper running down the master batch is heavy so it separates from the base resin causing the fluctuations in opacity or tints(to lazy to keep the hopper topped or mixed up or running down the hopper to change materials it will separate) #4. Most filament manufactures don't really know just because you got an MSDS sheet does not mean it runs at that said melt temp nor does it mean your loads slip level or antiblock levels PPM and most don't even know how to properly clean out an extruder or what to change when its not correct or even what is correct as they mostly buy them from China and don't really order what they actually need, yet a Conair line(USA) is 250K entry level #5. to get to 10$/roll you could need to get a 70000 lbs silo installed for each material have rail car tracks along side or 48 foot trailers of 26 pallet boxes per load trucked in about 1200 lbs each and order 30000 lbs FLT quantities to get the pricing.(this would apply for most all of us) #6. Productions from an extruder line, Material and operator will be as strong as your weakest component #7. there is added feeders that can accurately dose correctly, gravimetric weight and mix and dose the blends or a separate feed screw for real "additives" and colorants is yet another proper way to inline mix the resin to prevent separations you may not have gauge issues so much with PLA and PETG it is so soft hot the pressures are never pulsing near the deviation as most others like PEI PC can, the screw design letdown ratio, compression ratio, Melt zones, screw speeds and moulding downstream to the finishing coatings and more can and will result in the production If your not short on consultants ha ha, at least i still liked the video! but I could use a vacation! we had a screw and barrel last for over 20 years if its purpose "material" built it will! was a Davis Standard 2.5" lowboy 90% throughput still with basic care but ran LLDPE AND HDPE LDPE AND MDPE blends if your running Abrasives like GF and CF worse but they will all wear just like an engine you can get the barrel and screw miced on yearly basis or what have you to ensure proper throughput and performance just like a piston and cylinder clearance in and engine then recoating every few years depending what your running are is always cheaper than the barrel "cylinders" usually CR38 cromolly38 is the basic coating with a nickel and titanium upgrades and more Cheers new sub here if you cant tell LMAO!
Why are you sharing all of our secrets. Its just a commodity after all. Print Farmer like this guy should be able to do a much better job themselves. After maybe15+ years in actually doing it.
So much truth in 12 minutes. Just today, hook on the end of spool ruined my print. As hobbyist, I hate small spools. I'm from Czech republic. Homeland of Prusa. There are few fillament producers here. All made stuff for same high price. And sell them mostly on these stupid stupid stupid 750g spools. They are so useless. So much waste. 750g of fillament and 250g of spool.
Yes, there's nothing worse than wet filament (and all filament comes wet) you can't dry because the spool will warp in the dryer at the temperatures needed to dry the material quickly and thoroughly.
Wow, great thoughts. I'll disagree with the 1kg size. I don't print enough as a hobbiest to warrant 5kg rolls, 2 would probably be ok, and what do you think of the masterspools? But gosh dang do you make a good point about everything else. It makes me as an engineer want to go and fix the problem. And I know that 3DXtech specifies near 50% looser tolerances with industrial spools over the 1kgs.
100% agreed on the local manufacturing, only decent European filaments are >€20/kg while Chinese filaments are ~€11/kg and the cheap one in Europe (€10/kg) can't make filament without huge blobs in it like damn....
Preach! Im no manufacturer, and I have no right to make claims like one, but Ive purchased enough materials from industrial manufacturers myself to know damn well how cheap materials can get. The fact that filament is so expensive just goes to point out how shitty and abusive the industry is. 3D printing is a niche, sure, but its moving closer and closer to an actual industry in of itself. No one should be paying the amount were paying for filament. Buying two rolls of decent filament can cost up to 60$. Literally half a paycheck can go to restocking my rolls lol.. Its idiotic. And yeah, you worded how I feel about "Green" filament and rolls perfectly. If youre 3D printing, you shouldnt even be thinking about "being green" or "saving nature". 3D Printing is an inherently super inefficient and costly process. Hours and hours of electricity use to mould an overpriced roll of plastic into a simple shape. Most of the "go green" type shit is no better for the environment anyways, as it typically costs way more and takes more time and energy to produce products under that genre. TLDR: This video needs to be a lesson. Its all bullshit and no one seems to care about fixing it.
one reason 1kg spools have stuck around is so many machines were designed with only that in mind. sure you cant print one work with any size spool but a good way to ensure everyone can buy your spool you stay with the mainstream. i agree tho, the amount of filament on a 1kg spool isnt great. key standard filaments should come in bigger spools, less waste for everyone. not to mention when you think about it every spool of plastic comes with usually 150-250g of plastic extra just for the spool. not to mention the spool costs a bit, thoughts on a refill system?
If you made Slant 3D Filament for print farms id buy it, sounds like you've identified everything thats wrong with filament. Time to launch your own line!
perfect rant, thank you for saying it. i have collected a large and not getting smaller scrap pile, is there a USA company that takes the scrap and gives you a store credit for PLA filament spools, seems like a great idea but struggling to find someone that does it.
I wonder if filament is the only way to begin with? I sure find it nice as opposed to pellet extruders which have drawbacks, but perhaps there's a delivery form we all are overlooking? I remember some company had rod filament and it was a terrible idea and implementation, but maybe there are more.
AFAIK pellet extruders are significantly more bulky and more importantly heavier than even the heaviest filament extruders making it way harder to make them print fast, also harder to feed. It probably would be better to have filament making machine on site than to run direct pellet.
Here in Ukraine we have many local manufacturers of filament. The one that I use has very good diameter consistency and overall quality. It costs $12 per kilo for ABS.
Hi Sorry, totally unrelated where did you get that spinning head lamp in the back ground? Did you print that? If you did could you share the link for the files plz. TIA
for the filament sensor: btt filament sensor measures observed vs expected extrusion. for price pressure: look into shipping costs for US vs china. we used to subsidize china's shipping costs (and might still) through the UPU.
Making the spool larger, won't that put more strain on the extruder motor. It would be ideal to give the spool holder its own rotating motor that syncs with the printing process.
If the filament spool size/weight increased, would extruder motors be able handle it? I've no idea how strong or not they are. More mass= more pushing force required.
stratasys canisters run on there side for this reason over upright! the side of the reel runs on a friction disc like a bearing that drastically reducing the pulling forces 3-4x but for 1 kg rolls its not such an advantage until 2 kg up rolls
The bigger spools also have an increased diameter, so the extruder gets a bit of a mechanical advantage on a full spool. Plus it only needs to turn the spool (on a holder with bearings), not lift it. It only becomes an issue if the windings are a bit messy and the extruder needs to pull out filament with a winding on top, but thats not an issue with the size.
I recently found that laser printer toner is polyester. They mix well, they flow easily. It is cheap. White is available. We need CMYKW and a way to mix and extrude.
We get all of our material from IC3D at $14.50/kg. You just have to buy it in bulk to get a good price. This goes for raw pellets also. You need to buy 1000s of lbs to get pellets at a cheap price.
Rant well put and executed. I agree with you on almost everything. Tho 1kg is perfectly good for me as a small scale producer/hobbyist. That being said anything less per spool I won't buy because it's just not worth it's weight. Anything equal to or larger than 1kg is most definitely welcome and should be a standard with 1kg being the smallest spool. As for cardboard spools vs plastic... Cardboard seems less harmful to the planet but in fact it's just as bad if not worse in producing. Cardboard damages too easily thru shipping and handling for the spool to remain operationally friendly. I suggest more manufacturers sell with the option of buying a reusable spool that has one removable side and then sell bundles of spoolless filament. That would also remove that problem with the kinked bit of filament at the end of a spool.
As it is today, cardboard is way better, because it doesn't wrap when you use oven to dry your filament. This is especially important for nylon or other hydroscopic filaments with high glass temp. Some plastic spools are up for task, but others aren't. Usually they don't mark plastic type they used in any way and it can change between batches! That being said, it would be way better, if they made re-usable, high quality plastic spool. and sold refills to it without a spool. That's less manufacturing, less mass to ship, plastic isn't such a big deal, since you're re-using it again and again. This all sums up to cost savings. Some manufacturers already do it, but it has to become a standard, so we could re-use same spools for everything! But lets not kid ourselves, it won't happen, unless EU or US makes it a law.
As someone who only prints functional parts for industry, the claimed + or - 0,05 accuracy in diameter is WAY too much. Same GCode, same machine, back to back. One spool prints a part that fits, other spool prints the same part that DONT… this is RIDICULOUS… Btw I loved the “RIDICULOUS” pronunciation 😂
i have a ender 3 for now 6 years i print weekly somthing but i only need around 2Kg per year so i buy often small 250g batches for some types of filament becaus i dont need much. yea 500g 1Kg and 4kg spools are similar in size but i buyed 4 years ago 4 spools of a big 4,5kg white pla filament and i have one and a half still arround. my problem with these big spools is the wight. i have the spools hanging at the side of my printer in combination with a mosaik pallet 2s this thing can not much pull and struggle on these. all spools are hanging on costom made holders with the saft on barirngs for much les friction but the hanging 2 to 6kg on filament on that printer is not improving the print quality. i dont have much space and the most other hobbyist nither so a 500g to 1kg is a perfect size even you need a whole year or two for one spool of pla. i do not have my filament in drycontainer in vakuum there all hanging on my printer all day in a not well heated room. so having too much filament does realy help and ans for you and your buisniss why do you not buy a suitable macine that can mix ther own colors and uses the filament base material then can you buy every color pigments you need and huge big packs of filament beeds. sorry if this sounds offensive but you buying hobby stuff using hobby printers for your massprodcing printing buisniss. so if you use those and dont wont somthing change so dont blame and life with it. so if i kow right the bigges spool what a hobbyist can buy is 8,5kg and most of us dont need so much. the only thing what me bothers at the 1kg spools is there are mostly made of well made injection molded abs and no manufacturer what them back vor reuse these tings are expensive not the filament and if you buy a 4,5kg spool ther are only dobble the price and you have 4 times of filament. yea thera a paper spools out there too but the paper one sucks. you have only half of the spool used and the spool breaks and you have a big mess in your room and the best part of it i happens 90% while you printing and you taking a dump. yea so i stik with the 25€ 1k filament holded in a plastic spool.
Great video! Cardboars spools are exellent for someone like me who uses them to light the fireplace - the energy spent on manufacturing them isn't wasted but helps me heat the house. Whereas for someone like me who doesn't have a plastic shredder and a filament extrusion line, plastic spools are a real problem.
2KG rolls like the SSYS ones are industry standard like the one you showed, they are easy to get in bulk at times too i would be ok with them, they are ABS blk and they have a PC clear one for the higher temp ones too but 3$/reel for just the ABS ones unless you tool one out or just reuse reels/spools
Excellent take down of the huge issues with filament costs and general problems with the business models! I don't run a print farm, so haven't had too many issues with the need for color matching, but generally if you want to work with materials like LDPE or PP which are super cheap as pellets, the filament costs are even more extreme in comparison to ABS or PET-G. I am working on projects to improve pelleting printing to combine with filament compatible hot ends, and I am interested in helping reduce these pain points. Feel free to connect if you want more details. There is no perfect solution yet, but we are looking to improve it for the future for large scale, large format printing at high volume rates.
I brought 3D Printing to my140k subscriber channel. Because of the insanity of parts cost in the small engine world. The cost of an intake manifold for a Kohler twin is 3 times the cost of the one for my truck. Why because all of them are shipped in to the USA. In less then 2 months of owning the printer I have in house made over $2k in parts from $80 in filament. All parts that would have come from china. Right now the filament cost right or wrong gets justified by the savings. As the base of uses like me grows I think the cost will come down.
It's insane that we're using filament to begin with. If you want to dispense a metered quantity of water you use a precision pump, you don't freeze a cylinder of it and move it a set distance. I think there's a german company (big box?) that has a patent on metering plastic via a pump type mechanism. They make primarily large format printers, so printing from pellets is very much in their interest.
"Pick a size that makes sense..." Sorry but its the market that decide on what they want to buy. We are a reseller of materials and have been selling 2kg and 3kg spools for a long time. 99.5% are 750g and 1kg spools. If manufacturers simply dont sell them, they wont make them. In other words, no demand = no production. Thats like the second paragraph in marketing 101 As for the Spool jam with filament, agree 10000%
I do too, I find their PLA very consistent, it's a great price and prints really nicely. They have a great video online where they show their filament quality control process.
During a business trip to visit a provider, here's how I saw how plastic pellets are colored to produce a master batch (we buy pellets not filament): a pallet bag worth of pellets is dumped in a hopper, a guy adds a few "cups" of pigments powder (who knows what leftover pigments are in the hopper from the previous batch), everything goes in a mixer before going in the extruder, and out come the colored beads after a while. The guy didn't weigh the bag and didn't weigh the amount of pigment he added. The cups he used weren't equally filled each time either. So there you go. No need to tell you we didn't do business with them.
Very common occurance
use pigment colorant Master batch over powders and cheap black MB is always going to be Carbon not pigment so you get out only what goes in the extruder!
@@rexxx927 Carbon is a pigment, given that it scatters light... Anything that scatters light, is a pigment. Anything that is "transparent" to light, is a Dye.
@@kwaad2 yes i get that but in master batches they are 2 different things! and the base material in the MB is made from is an impact on the blended resins
I solved the color issue by only printing in natural. It's not just about consistent color, but the pigments they put into the filament actually affect the print qualities, and ultimately the natural variants *always* print the best. Don't really care about aesthetics because I'm not printing toys...
Here's something the whole industry has kind of missed though -- the fact that filament comes on spools. It's stupid that it's packaged in spools. Not only does this produce a spool that's just trash and hard to recycle, but it's harder on your extruder and other mechanisms. Every time you want a little more filament, you have to overcome the rotational inertia of the ENTIRE SPOOL. EVERY TIME. The spool based architecture has produced some hilariously spectacular print failures.
They should have adopted a Reelex style winding which completely does away with the spool. You just pull the material straight out of the box. Requires less force and again -- NO SPOOL.
This should have been done decades ago but the 3d printing community was very quick to latch onto bad legacy habits. We're just stuck now.
Great idea! Maybe Tangled filament could test that out. I'll try a box.
Just learned about Reelex through this comment and yes, this would be the perfect solution. The only concern is MAYBE this packaging process isn't ideal for something as brittle and prone to tangle as a 1.75mm thick string of plastic. But I'm sure engineers can figure this out.
Stratasys uses Reelex or something similar for their large quantities of filament. We order 500 cubic inches of material at work that dispenses straight from a large cardboard box with no internal spool. I believe they brand these as the “xtend” series
Great rant Sir, the price of ‘good’ filament is crazy high and now a lot of companies have moved to 750g spools also.
Awesome video as always mate 👍🇦🇺😊
Thank so much. Yea the shrinkflation has been weird
I use an Ultimaker 3, and they are set up for 750mg as std. Great filament just pricey and no filament run-out sensor.
Regarding spools - how about reusing them? Bambu Lab and Prusa both sell refills so that you can reuse spools. I've been using refills as much as I can and I love it
Get this video more views
Thanks
I've been using FIberlogy's refills for the past 3 years, now I've switched to filament from 3DPOWER (0.03 vs 0.02mm tolerance) and there is zero difference for 2/3 the cost. The only issue I have is that the refill spools are not more widespread, because I really like the idea of not having a house full of empty spools.
Due to the Reponse to this video we have decided to push forward with manufacturing filament. No full details yet (expect that we have already purchased another extruder to suppor this production). We are planning out the best way to go about it so that it does not distract from our core business and is the most help to the community that it can be, while also being sustainable. You have hear first comments here. We will keep you updated as it develops.
th-cam.com/video/NwLIRZAQ2g8/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Slant3D
Awesome! I really like what Prusa does with posting their QC data for each spool for the customer to verify. Might be something to adopt for your process.
I freaking whole heartedly agree with every single point... even as a "hobbyist" I struggle to buy a whole bunch of filament because of cost and it prevents me from growing my 3D printing business. I have to either wait weeks for filament or pay an insane markup "for convenience" and "better quality" and "locally made" just to make parts for clients and that, in turn, makes me more expensive than the injection molding counterparts. It's ridiculous.
@spools and sizes: I like the master spool approach where you buy a roll of filament only. No unneccessary waste, and it pays off to build an expensive spool once, that really works well and takes a lot of (ab)use. For large scale production, where you want to avoid manual labor, you can have a standardized 3kg spool that can be sent back and you get a refund on your purchase. 3kg are too much for makers at home. I have a 800g spool of TPU at home, it's about a year old and I'm sure I used less than 200g. In the meantime it takes up space and it ages. It also binds capital that some makers don't have much of.
If you're doing it at scale, maybe it would be worth making a rig to automatically inspect, splice and re-spool filament onto bigger spools. Would only need one machine to cover many printers, and may pay for itself in fewer changeovers and failed prints
I agree with you on most of these points. I would like to add one. I am starting to see rolls pass QA underweight.
Good to know
So please share, which ones are your favorite filament suppliers? Especially for color conformity
Great and valid question:
What industry color standards will you be implying with your conformity?
@@fredpinczuk7352 There is one fairly universal standard of color for physical things, Pantone. Though you can use any alternative that uses the same numbers to the same actual color ;-)
@@tymoteuszkazubski2755 Exactly!
Now, lets name a single brand that advertise a pantone or CMYK or other standard on their filament packaging?
They don't, for the simple reason that no one will pay for that level of conformity.
Mfg filament within those parameters would make it very expensive. And Winny McWinnerson here is all ready complaining about cost.
@@fredpinczuk7352 FiberForce makes Pantone PLA. I bet there are more manufacturers for Pantone compliant filament makers that target businesses rather than hobbyists
@@tymoteuszkazubski2755 Exactly.
filament typically costs a lot more here in the UK than it does in USA. The very cheapest ABS i can get is USD $23.99. ASA more like $50. In USA Sunlu ABS $11 per kilo if you take lucky dip colours,
Same here in the Netherlands, only reliable way to get decent cheap filament is to find a few friends who also need the colour you want and then ordering them in bulk from china.
Good to know. We are looking at creating a filament line. We love this feedback
@@slant3d Mate if You can bring quality filament here and beat the incumbent pricing structure I'm in. I'm with You all the way. I'll switch, I'll recommend You at every opportunity, etc. Once You get reputation for well priced quality You'll have it made here. Europe in general, I suspect.
@@slant3d if you do this, we’re on board
Great rant! When Philips was developing 3D printing, it quickly realized that it had to extrude its own filament for all the reasons you identified: Commodity materials, bulk size spools, consistency, etc.
Philips into 3D printing? That's a story I would like to hear.
@@GabrielAlejandroZorrilla I think he is talkting about the german youtube channel Philipps 3D Druck
I agree 100% on the size of the filament spool. We always go with larger spool sizes over the 1kg "standard". 1kg is just terrible for 3D printing business since it is simply not enough. 2.5~8kg is the sweet spot from my own experience.
I think you are the first person to mention this:
As a hobbyist, 1kg spools are inconvenient if you want to keep multiple colours. These 1kg spools take A LOT of space when you have multiple of them. But the biggest issue is that stuff like PLA *will* degrade no matter how well you store it. If you are a hobbyist and buy 1kg of colour that you're going to use a couple of times per year, after two years you might as well throw away half of the spool. Some brands last less, some last longer, but after some time all of them start having issues during printing.
You're right. My old PLA is extremely brittle. "Baking" the old filament in a food dehydrator overnight seems to help. Keeping it stored in a dark place seems to help too. Neither is as good as new filament.
... and the companies that ship spools in cardboard boxes with no vacuum bag just need to stop.
We live in Alberta which is super dry (think nosebleeds, cracked skin on your hands and the winters dry out the air even more) and I haven't had this problem with PLA filament. As far as I know it's moisture that causes brittleness but feel free to add.
@@psedach Yeah, that's mostly it. From what I know, UV is also bad for filament, but that's likely not a concern unless your filament closet has a window or something.
I've had stupid good luck with PETG, seriously a translucent blue spool that I got before not being able to print for 2 years, spent 3 months in an outdoor storage unit in PHX in the summer, dust was covering everthing in the unit from dust storms, PLA more brittle then a cracker, I've been going through the Blue PETG and it still prints great.
I have open spools that are over 6 years old and still print as good as the day I opened them, after drying. I live in humidity central, Minnesota, to boot. If you have PLA filament going bad after two years, there is something seriously wrong with how your store it and use it.
Very nice wrap up !
I agree on the spool sizes. Of course nobody wants to replace all 1kg spools with 3-5kg but diversity would be nice.
As a hobbyist, 90% of what I print end up black or white. And I’d be very to buy cheaper bigger spools of those.
I was a buyer for an injection molding company. There is always going to be at least a slight variation of color in the batches. The same thing goes for ink in printers, etc.
Within tolerance yes. But that tolerance is currently far too wide in filament
Love your channel. I’ve got 31 printers and will have 50-60 by the end of the year. The info is incredible for the industry and helps a lot. Could you do a video on how to make you own filament some what reliably. I really want to be able to produce batches of 20-40kg of a color but barrier to entry is to hard
Producing filament in house, requires huge scale to be viable
@@slant3d how much would you say makes it viable?? I’ve tried to do my own calculations and I was estimating when I’m running 100 printers 247 it would start making sense. I 3d print multi colored jewelry so I need control over my own colors for products
@@slant3d I don't think you did the math correctly on the CAPEX if you are in fact consuming that amount of filament. You're ROI could be as little as 6 months. And since your filament would be perfect, you could sell the excess capacity at lower cost.
Win-win.
So true and refreshing to hear you speak out on this topic where everybody is mumbling about.
Subbed and shared .
Outstanding contend !
For print farms and larger manufacturing of 3D printed goods - yeah larger sizes should be available for you. I completely agree. But I think the 1kg spools are okay for individuals like myself, "makers" who print a few things for around the house.
Maybe 500g spools are more practical for the lot of us, we have to worry more about filament degradation when handling 1kg spools.
But for 500g spools to be viable, they have to be really cheap and I don't really see companies wanting to go for this.
I just wish there were more options for smaller spools. Yes, there are some 250g spools, but they're usually more than half of the price of a kg spool, and 250g is still quite a lot if you just want to see if the color is as you imagined or just a small print. Azurefilm sells 50g samples, which are perfect for that purpose.
Na 2 or 2,5 for normal consumer i hate the 1kg spools
@@turmfalcke I suppose it depends. Some people make large prints all the time. Personally, I make prints a bit on the small size, I don't think I would benefit from larger spools. Someone who is into miniatures might even see 1kg as pretty large.
It also varies by color. White and black are my most commonly used colors, for them 1kg is fine, even a bit larger would be okay. Other colors I use infrequently will last a pretty long time with a 1kg spool.
@@logicalfundy I do small things too but 1kg is like 2 weekends if you are really on it. And then you a: waste the rest or b: babysit the rest
As someone who just bought his first 3D printer, this rant was very helpful. Now I at least know to cut off the bent piece of filament so it doesn't destroy my prints.
Looking forward to the official Slant 3D filament!
This channel has inspired me to try manufacturing my own fillament im not sure exactly where to start
I’ve been going back through all the older Slant videos and I’m so glad I did. The bit about the turtle not being able to suck a filament spool up its nose is absolute gold!! 😂😂😂
Absolutely hear you on the 3kg roll being standard. I have a lot of changeover and I have the end of the roll problem where my printer will destroy itself by pulling the spool off the spoolholder at the end of the roll.
I'm a hobbyist and recently had to order 3.5kg spools from FormFutura since 1kg was out of stock. Will do this again for the colors that I use most (black, white) since its really a breeze if you have the space 2 or 3 of those things near the printer.
I've always enjoyed your videos and they have been top notch lately.
Glad you like them!
I agree on spool size. I have converted my home 3D printer operation to 3-5 KG spools.
I would love to see empty spool weights marked on the spools (Tare Weight??). I now use a scale to figure out how much is left on a spool. It allows me to judge how much is left on a spool. The scale allowed clean up my left over spools. I could easily match left over filament pieces with print jobs. I also decided to go to 3-5 KG spools to also eliminate waste. I tended to use t or three colors, and buy multiple 1 KG spools of each color. 3 KG spools made sense.
The scale I bought is a 5 KG lab scale. It will handle a 3 KG spool. But it will also weigh down to 0.01 gm. so I can calibrate the printer with it.
I hereby apologise for this slab I'm about to drop.
As I have been working as a Filament Manufacturer (tough not of plastic) for 3 years now I'd like to add my input on your takes.
Mostly about what I agree with, and what I think needs more nuance.
Filament Overprice.
In the early days of FFF, filament was kind of expected to be overpriced,
as the scale of production and sales was so small it simply forced it that way.
Now, although it is still dwarfed by Injection Moulding,
filament spools are sold in much larger quantities, however the price is going down much.
You can blame it on incompetence or the money hungry, I'm sure some manufacturers are guilty of this.
But there are some ways to explain this at least partially.
First, as you said filament extrusion is a relatively old process, but compared to IM we have barely started using it for FFF
as it's popularization came criminaly late.
Also yes the raw material is very cheap... for IM. But granules for Filament Extrusion are usually not the same as for IM.
Manufacturers do spend some time with R&D to formulate filaments that are both easy to print and get you a strong part printed, usually by adding several additives to the plastic.
Add colors to the mix and things get even more complicated. The addition of one pigment can ruin the filament and you end up having slightly different formulations for each color.
I mean, designing pigments for Filament Manufacturing is a job on its own.
Since the challenges to achieve this are different to that of IM, it means that the Feedstock for filament extrusion is different than that for IM.
Which leads to an other problem: Filament Manufacturers are usually not Feedstock Manufacturers. Filament Extrusion is a spec of dust for FS Manufacturers
so when they have to clean their whole setup to make a "small" custom batch for a Filament Manufacturer obviously that price will not be as competitive.
I don't know if all of this is able to justify the price, I just wanted to show that things are more complicated than they look.
However as you said, as things go, the prices are sure to go down, they have to, and hopefuly sooner than later.
For Color Consistancy I don't think there's much that can be done. The problem lies more on the Feedstock Manufacturing part than the Filament Manufacturing one I think.
As long as things will be done in batches, this effect will occur. IM doesn't really have this issue because everything gets mixed in the extruder, so the color averages out on the final part.
Though if you compare two part made from the same machine using two different batches of FS that are supposed the same color, there you will see a difference.
Its just not a real issue because the difference is subtle enough than it doesn't matter for two different parts (until it doesn't, I have seen some off colored legos before...).
For 3D printing the issue is that you can experience a batch discontinuity halfway through the part and that really stings the eye.
What they could do is label every spool with a batch name (Actually we do this, but again... not plastic), so that when the filament runs out, you can resume it with a spool of the same batch if you have one and hopefuly not have any discontinuity.
That would require a more complicated spool management though.
For spool sizes I don't quite understand. I thought 2.5 kg spool were already available, maybe they are not that available?
I absolutely agree that 1 kg spool is just too much for hobbying though.
The end ties are absolutely ridiculous! And the solution to it is even more simple than what you showed (though it would absolutely work).
What we do is pass the filament through the spool inner hole, we just dont tie it.
You only have to hold the filament in place with a finger for a turn, then you can let go and it holds.
I agree that if quality means not shipping defects, that's not quality, and that definetely does not justify the price.
That said, there are some formulations that are better than others. The difference being in the amount of R&D the manufacturer is willing to invest.
Which could justify the price, but let not lie, it is drowned in this not-shipping-defects issue.
Also most Manufacturers don't recycle their filament because they don't make the Feedstock, so they don't even have the means to recycle.
Maybe the ones that don't send defects are the ones that DO recycle their filament.
I recycle my filaments regularly and I can tell you, usually the filament is even better after extruding it a second time.
I don't really know what to think of the chinese manufacturers pressure, on one hand they do have a record for disregarding intellectual property,
but in this case things are more protected by know-how rather than by patents so I do think it applies.
On the other hand I think they are just taking things more seriously, going for a bigger scale with better organization, tighening the margins.
And maybe a little lack of R&D so lesser quality? Haven't tested yet so its just a guess.
If the difference in quality isn't significant enough compared to the difference in price it can be worth it though.
It could also happen to be that the quality is the same or even better, I don't know.
On a final note: Your farm is very impressive! Keep up the good work!
I've got a 3kg filament spool of "transition" filament (produced when s2witching colors between batches (it's cheaper and for prototyping color is not important)) from Rosa3D. I can't use it as the spool is too big for my spool holder, and even if I had a bigger holder, it would warp the frame of my printer due to sheer mass. So for now I have to rewind it onto smaller spool.
Stratasys made big spools for their proprietary industrial printers. They were expensive as hell, because were closed in heavy metal boxes.
Switch to metal spools made from recycled american cars - problem solved. Unless we make a genetically modified plants that grow spools, it will be energy-intense process. So if filament manufacturer is charging so much, then force him to pay for proper recycling of the spools. The manufacturer might offer a discount for sending them back empty spools to be reused. If the spool is not broken, then they can rewind it...
As for that China thing: USA is big on free, competitive market, so why should anyone whine, when some other country takes advantage of that market to deliver a cheaper commodity?
about the spools, we should have nice durable metal spools that you keep. And have a universal standard with regard to core size and then every company offers spooless filament. Could even have printers ship with said refillable master spool
Seems like some of this could be addressed by the printer manufacturers, for example, a small well in the nozzle, about 2.5 to 3 times the filament size could eliminate mis-prints caused by notches in the filaments, and a different type of sensor in the flow line could tell if the feed stops, due to kinking, or any other reason...
recycling spools would be nice - HP provides a return envelope for recycling cartridges with their Instaink program, brilliant.
They can afford to do that because they're charging ~$9000/gal for 1oz of ink that costs less than $100/gal to produce.
Slant,
I just bought my first ever 3d printer. I'm tech savvy, and have built fpv drones and other things.
Setup was 20min, and the benchy came out perfect. After that, all hell breaks loose.
I ordered a sonic pad to make things quicker/easier. The sonic pad during the setup froze. I bricked the ender, and i thought the sonic pad as well. After chatting with creality, and watching a few youtube vids, 4 hours later I had both re-flashed.
Touch pad still doesn't work. I rip apart the sonic pad and realize 2 ribbon cables are NOT LOCKED. Sweet, what else did they miss.
I'm now printing my first print from cura. I'm printing the Sonic Pad top mount.
NOW. The filament. Jesus christ. Why can't they just make a runout sensor with 4 rollers inside to detect whether filament has gouges in it? it would cost $50, and they could use them between main production & packaging.
Someone needs to just produce filament, who actually prints themselves.
Good vid. Thanks!
I mostly use inland filament from microcenter the way they wrap their spool leaves a tiny dog ear at the end that i have never had fail to feed through the filament censor. They also offer spooless filament that you put in their reusable spools which goes for about $17 a kg. Doesn't solve all your issues but they are the best i have found.
Question regarding some leftover filament in the pipes, should I throw it, once 15 cm are left outside the extruder + 1 meter in the pipe to the nozzle?
Which means each real I will lose 1.15m per 1kg reel.
Selling spool refills would be amazing, cut down on costs for everyone
ur so right about hobby places over-charging for everything.
for the longest time i thought I needed to get official warhammer paints and turns out they are the same as the dollar store paints. Except u pay more for less. Another thing is the varnish, I paid almost 15$ for a a 15ml bottle of Vallejo varnish when they are just watering down school glue and putting it into bottles. The dollar store sell Mod Podge for like $1.00 and its the same thing and you get a lot more.
I want to start a recycling program in my city where we take all the plastic bottles and recycle them into filament for re-sale.
It's nice to see someone that is using 3D printing as a business trying to bring about change that will benefit hobbyists. After all the 3D printing market has the hobbyists to thank for the state of 3D printing today. 3D printing is something I do for me, I enjoy it. but the price of quality filament is getting a bit insane.
How about putting the tare weight on a spool so you can weigh it to see how much filament is left before starting a print job?
finally someone has the balls to speak free! Congrats! and thanks
Great rant! I hope some of these change soon since they are big deals.
Where can I get a reliable extrusion line?
How much does it cost?
I just got into my hands few leftover prusament spools. They have the best filament end clip ever. There's cavity on the inside of the spool where filament end can be inserted. Others have just plain old 2 holes where filament gets bent and you have to snap it off before printing. It's so simple to make the same thing on other spools. Maybe Prusa has patent on that I don't know. End of their filament is also not bent 90 degrees. But I yet have to test it without snapping it off.
They also use hexagon pattern to use less plastic. Or not I didn't measured it so maybe that's bullshit.
Those Prusament spools are really nice. Their weight is around 20% lower than most typical spools.
I think you're dead wrong on the filament size. As you indicated, the majority of filament is sold to hobbyist. We often don't have a means of using a bigger spool. And we often don't print often enough or in quantities large enough to go through larger spools. I hear your point about smaller spools (I bought a 1kg spool of "flesh-tone" to print a multi-color Jean-Luc Picard facepalming and am probably never going to use the other 990 grams of that spool), but I don't have a way of using a 3.5kg spool. And even though I know it's costing me less per print, paying over $100 for a single spool of filament is uncomfortable for me.
As far as the spools themselves are concerned, the solution is to lose them all together. Agree on a standard inner diameter and spool width, then offer designs people can print at home to put the filament on. There are a few manufacturers that sell filament that way, but we need a standard to make it really work. I don't want to have to keep one set of spools for when I buy from one provider, and another set when I buy from someone else. (I feel like it's back in the 80's when every computer was on a different operating system and had different storage standards. You couldn't take a document from an Apple II and use it on an Atari 800 or a Commodore 64. Heck, you couldn't even get it over to the other machine without going through a ton of hoops.)
‼ Endlich mal jemand der alles anspricht was einem bei 3D Drucken eh schon auffällt. Danke für dieses Video echt klasse und grüße aus Deutschland. ‼
‼ Finally someone who appeals everything that you already notice about 3D printing. Thanks for this great video and greetings from Germany. ‼
Thanks for stopping by
I see some brands sell a 1kg spool, and when you take it out of the plastic bag and weigh it, it’s 900-1000g… including the spool
I love the savagery (honesty)! Industries need this. Subscribing!
Thanks for watching
I’ll agree with you on the 3kg spool thing for sure.
I had a spool of 3Dxtech have a kink and it got jammed up, I called them, they sent be a brand new spool for free, and I have never seen a kink in the end of their spools again. They are expensive but they listen, so positive story
IMO
#1. Gauge OD is the biggest issue 1.71-1.81 is found and also pulses from the extruders back pressure causing surges across the rolls
#2. The windup, blocking and shaping the filament onto the roll tensions and temperatures they are rolled up to loose or to tight
#3. The masterbatch variations are from the hopper running down the master batch is heavy so it separates from the base resin causing the fluctuations in opacity or tints(to lazy to keep the hopper topped or mixed up or running down the hopper to change materials it will separate)
#4. Most filament manufactures don't really know just because you got an MSDS sheet does not mean it runs at that said melt temp nor does it mean your loads slip level or antiblock levels PPM and most don't even know how to properly clean out an extruder or what to change when its not correct or even what is correct as they mostly buy them from China and don't really order what they actually need, yet a Conair line(USA) is 250K entry level
#5. to get to 10$/roll you could need to get a 70000 lbs silo installed for each material have rail car tracks along side or 48 foot trailers of 26 pallet boxes per load trucked in about 1200 lbs each and order 30000 lbs FLT quantities to get the pricing.(this would apply for most all of us)
#6. Productions from an extruder line, Material and operator will be as strong as your weakest component
#7. there is added feeders that can accurately dose correctly, gravimetric weight and mix and dose the blends or a separate feed screw for real "additives" and colorants is yet another proper way to inline mix the resin to prevent separations
you may not have gauge issues so much with PLA and PETG it is so soft hot the pressures are never pulsing near the deviation as most others like PEI PC can, the screw design letdown ratio, compression ratio, Melt zones, screw speeds and moulding downstream to the finishing coatings and more can and will result in the production
If your not short on consultants ha ha, at least i still liked the video! but I could use a vacation!
we had a screw and barrel last for over 20 years if its purpose "material" built it will! was a Davis Standard 2.5" lowboy 90% throughput still with basic care but ran LLDPE AND HDPE LDPE AND MDPE blends if your running Abrasives like GF and CF worse but they will all wear just like an engine
you can get the barrel and screw miced on yearly basis or what have you to ensure proper throughput and performance just like a piston and cylinder clearance in and engine then recoating every few years depending what your running are is always cheaper than the barrel "cylinders" usually CR38 cromolly38 is the basic coating with a nickel and titanium upgrades and more
Cheers new sub here if you cant tell LMAO!
That is some of the best feedback we have had. Thank you so much
@@slant3d my pleasure thank you, I like doing it i have for 23 years let me know if i can help
Why are you sharing all of our secrets. Its just a commodity after all. Print Farmer like this guy should be able to do a much better job themselves. After maybe15+ years in actually doing it.
@@fredpinczuk7352 As I have said I like doing it, Who's ours? a better job at what FDM printing or Extrusion filaments?
You captured the current state of the market completely.
Thanks
So much truth in 12 minutes. Just today, hook on the end of spool ruined my print. As hobbyist, I hate small spools. I'm from Czech republic. Homeland of Prusa. There are few fillament producers here. All made stuff for same high price. And sell them mostly on these stupid stupid stupid 750g spools. They are so useless. So much waste. 750g of fillament and 250g of spool.
Cardboard spools are good for being able to dry filament, especially PC.
Yes, there's nothing worse than wet filament (and all filament comes wet) you can't dry because the spool will warp in the dryer at the temperatures needed to dry the material quickly and thoroughly.
Preach on. The kink gets me too. I've started cutting the end of the spool off.
Wow, great thoughts. I'll disagree with the 1kg size. I don't print enough as a hobbiest to warrant 5kg rolls, 2 would probably be ok, and what do you think of the masterspools? But gosh dang do you make a good point about everything else. It makes me as an engineer want to go and fix the problem. And I know that 3DXtech specifies near 50% looser tolerances with industrial spools over the 1kgs.
100% agreed on the local manufacturing, only decent European filaments are >€20/kg while Chinese filaments are ~€11/kg and the cheap one in Europe (€10/kg) can't make filament without huge blobs in it like damn....
Love the video, good points and well presented!
Preach! Im no manufacturer, and I have no right to make claims like one, but Ive purchased enough materials from industrial manufacturers myself to know damn well how cheap materials can get. The fact that filament is so expensive just goes to point out how shitty and abusive the industry is. 3D printing is a niche, sure, but its moving closer and closer to an actual industry in of itself. No one should be paying the amount were paying for filament. Buying two rolls of decent filament can cost up to 60$. Literally half a paycheck can go to restocking my rolls lol.. Its idiotic.
And yeah, you worded how I feel about "Green" filament and rolls perfectly. If youre 3D printing, you shouldnt even be thinking about "being green" or "saving nature". 3D Printing is an inherently super inefficient and costly process. Hours and hours of electricity use to mould an overpriced roll of plastic into a simple shape. Most of the "go green" type shit is no better for the environment anyways, as it typically costs way more and takes more time and energy to produce products under that genre.
TLDR: This video needs to be a lesson. Its all bullshit and no one seems to care about fixing it.
one reason 1kg spools have stuck around is so many machines were designed with only that in mind. sure you cant print one work with any size spool but a good way to ensure everyone can buy your spool you stay with the mainstream. i agree tho, the amount of filament on a 1kg spool isnt great. key standard filaments should come in bigger spools, less waste for everyone. not to mention when you think about it every spool of plastic comes with usually 150-250g of plastic extra just for the spool. not to mention the spool costs a bit, thoughts on a refill system?
Slant is coming in hard. 🔥
If you made Slant 3D Filament for print farms id buy it, sounds like you've identified everything thats wrong with filament. Time to launch your own line!
Good idea
Id agree with that, complain or do it and show the others how to do it :)
As a hobbyist printer, I still felt this WHOLE rant. All of this.
perfect rant, thank you for saying it. i have collected a large and not getting smaller scrap pile, is there a USA company that takes the scrap and gives you a store credit for PLA filament spools, seems like a great idea but struggling to find someone that does it.
It's great that in India, I can get PLA+ filament at a retail price of $12/kg from a good manufacturer like Numakers.
Real talk!!! Love it. I noticed that made in America sticker gave me some defective, lower tier, higher priced items. Don't believe the hype
I wonder if filament is the only way to begin with? I sure find it nice as opposed to pellet extruders which have drawbacks, but perhaps there's a delivery form we all are overlooking? I remember some company had rod filament and it was a terrible idea and implementation, but maybe there are more.
hopper of pellets/rods on a moving gantry = bad print quality and poor speeds
What do you think about pellet extrusion systems on printers vs Filament extrusion?? Advantages & disadvantages
AFAIK pellet extruders are significantly more bulky and more importantly heavier than even the heaviest filament extruders making it way harder to make them print fast, also harder to feed. It probably would be better to have filament making machine on site than to run direct pellet.
Here in Ukraine we have many local manufacturers of filament. The one that I use has very good diameter consistency and overall quality. It costs $12 per kilo for ABS.
Hi Sorry, totally unrelated where did you get that spinning head lamp in the back ground? Did you print that? If you did could you share the link for the files plz. TIA
Just watched your grand plan for the future earlier (🤪) Go ahead, show them how it’s done!
Interesting video.
Thanks for stopping by
for the filament sensor: btt filament sensor measures observed vs expected extrusion.
for price pressure: look into shipping costs for US vs china. we used to subsidize china's shipping costs (and might still) through the UPU.
I'm buying good quality 1KG spools of PLA for $12-$15USD down here in Mexico, I don't understand why it's so much more expensive in the US.
@8:45 or how about reusable spools like bambu labs. just ship filament minus the spool.
Making the spool larger, won't that put more strain on the extruder motor. It would be ideal to give the spool holder its own rotating motor that syncs with the printing process.
If the filament spool size/weight increased, would extruder motors be able handle it? I've no idea how strong or not they are. More mass= more pushing force required.
To a point. But spools can be much larger than 1 KG
Great point. But more and more 3d printer come with bearing filament holder for less friction and the use of heavier spools
stratasys canisters run on there side for this reason over upright! the side of the reel runs on a friction disc like a bearing that drastically reducing the pulling forces 3-4x but for 1 kg rolls its not such an advantage until 2 kg up rolls
It doesn't really matter with good bearings. Even skate bearings over 8mm rod and a relatively well fitting hub spacer are perfectly fine.
The bigger spools also have an increased diameter, so the extruder gets a bit of a mechanical advantage on a full spool. Plus it only needs to turn the spool (on a holder with bearings), not lift it. It only becomes an issue if the windings are a bit messy and the extruder needs to pull out filament with a winding on top, but thats not an issue with the size.
I recently found that laser printer toner is polyester. They mix well, they flow easily. It is cheap. White is available. We need CMYKW and a way to mix and extrude.
We get all of our material from IC3D at $14.50/kg. You just have to buy it in bulk to get a good price. This goes for raw pellets also. You need to buy 1000s of lbs to get pellets at a cheap price.
They will also take back old spools for credit
Rant well put and executed. I agree with you on almost everything. Tho 1kg is perfectly good for me as a small scale producer/hobbyist. That being said anything less per spool I won't buy because it's just not worth it's weight. Anything equal to or larger than 1kg is most definitely welcome and should be a standard with 1kg being the smallest spool. As for cardboard spools vs plastic... Cardboard seems less harmful to the planet but in fact it's just as bad if not worse in producing. Cardboard damages too easily thru shipping and handling for the spool to remain operationally friendly. I suggest more manufacturers sell with the option of buying a reusable spool that has one removable side and then sell bundles of spoolless filament. That would also remove that problem with the kinked bit of filament at the end of a spool.
As it is today, cardboard is way better, because it doesn't wrap when you use oven to dry your filament. This is especially important for nylon or other hydroscopic filaments with high glass temp. Some plastic spools are up for task, but others aren't. Usually they don't mark plastic type they used in any way and it can change between batches!
That being said, it would be way better, if they made re-usable, high quality plastic spool. and sold refills to it without a spool. That's less manufacturing, less mass to ship, plastic isn't such a big deal, since you're re-using it again and again. This all sums up to cost savings. Some manufacturers already do it, but it has to become a standard, so we could re-use same spools for everything!
But lets not kid ourselves, it won't happen, unless EU or US makes it a law.
As someone who only prints functional parts for industry, the claimed + or - 0,05 accuracy in diameter is WAY too much.
Same GCode, same machine, back to back. One spool prints a part that fits, other spool prints the same part that DONT… this is RIDICULOUS… Btw I loved the “RIDICULOUS” pronunciation 😂
In China you can buy 1kg petg at 44¥ (6.5$) with shipping. And quality not bad.
i have a ender 3 for now 6 years i print weekly somthing but i only need around 2Kg per year so i buy often small 250g batches for some types of filament becaus i dont need much. yea 500g 1Kg and 4kg spools are similar in size but i buyed 4 years ago 4 spools of a big 4,5kg white pla filament and i have one and a half still arround. my problem with these big spools is the wight. i have the spools hanging at the side of my printer in combination with a mosaik pallet 2s this thing can not much pull and struggle on these. all spools are hanging on costom made holders with the saft on barirngs for much les friction but the hanging 2 to 6kg on filament on that printer is not improving the print quality. i dont have much space and the most other hobbyist nither so a 500g to 1kg is a perfect size even you need a whole year or two for one spool of pla. i do not have my filament in drycontainer in vakuum there all hanging on my printer all day in a not well heated room. so having too much filament does realy help and ans for you and your buisniss why do you not buy a suitable macine that can mix ther own colors and uses the filament base material then can you buy every color pigments you need and huge big packs of filament beeds.
sorry if this sounds offensive but you buying hobby stuff using hobby printers for your massprodcing printing buisniss. so if you use those and dont wont somthing change so dont blame and life with it. so if i kow right the bigges spool what a hobbyist can buy is 8,5kg and most of us dont need so much. the only thing what me bothers at the 1kg spools is there are mostly made of well made injection molded abs and no manufacturer what them back vor reuse these tings are expensive not the filament and if you buy a 4,5kg spool ther are only dobble the price and you have 4 times of filament. yea thera a paper spools out there too but the paper one sucks. you have only half of the spool used and the spool breaks and you have a big mess in your room and the best part of it i happens 90% while you printing and you taking a dump. yea so i stik with the 25€ 1k filament holded in a plastic spool.
I agree with everything your saying I would add a few things but I think you brought up the most important topics
Great video! Cardboars spools are exellent for someone like me who uses them to light the fireplace - the energy spent on manufacturing them isn't wasted but helps me heat the house.
Whereas for someone like me who doesn't have a plastic shredder and a filament extrusion line, plastic spools are a real problem.
2KG rolls like the SSYS ones are industry standard like the one you showed, they are easy to get in bulk at times too i would be ok with them, they are ABS blk and they have a PC clear one for the higher temp ones too but 3$/reel for just the ABS ones unless you tool one out or just reuse reels/spools
unfortunately "at times" is not a reliable manufacturing resource
I do agree to the last point very very much.
why not resuable spool holder?
Excellent take down of the huge issues with filament costs and general problems with the business models! I don't run a print farm, so haven't had too many issues with the need for color matching, but generally if you want to work with materials like LDPE or PP which are super cheap as pellets, the filament costs are even more extreme in comparison to ABS or PET-G. I am working on projects to improve pelleting printing to combine with filament compatible hot ends, and I am interested in helping reduce these pain points. Feel free to connect if you want more details. There is no perfect solution yet, but we are looking to improve it for the future for large scale, large format printing at high volume rates.
I brought 3D Printing to my140k subscriber channel. Because of the insanity of parts cost in the small engine world. The cost of an intake manifold for a Kohler twin is 3 times the cost of the one for my truck. Why because all of them are shipped in to the USA. In less then 2 months of owning the printer I have in house made over $2k in parts from $80 in filament. All parts that would have come from china. Right now the filament cost right or wrong gets justified by the savings. As the base of uses like me grows I think the cost will come down.
That is defeintely true for prototyping and spare part creation. It is not true for mass production which is where 3D Printing is going.
Nailed it!
Thank you
It's insane that we're using filament to begin with. If you want to dispense a metered quantity of water you use a precision pump, you don't freeze a cylinder of it and move it a set distance.
I think there's a german company (big box?) that has a patent on metering plastic via a pump type mechanism. They make primarily large format printers, so printing from pellets is very much in their interest.
I think that 3Dfillies in Australia are producing 3kg spools.
5kg spools would be awesome.
I enjoyed the rant.
are there any bulk petg/pla pellet suppliers that you would recommend?
9:00 You really nailed that one.
I just got my first 3D printer, and after a couple weeks I have already figured out I want 5kg spools minimum.
California Filament has 5kg rolls, only 4 "colors" though. Black, white, and a variation of each.
love the episode just have one question? when and where can i buy your filament? in the name of perfect adhesion please tell me...
"Pick a size that makes sense..." Sorry but its the market that decide on what they want to buy. We are a reseller of materials and have been selling 2kg and 3kg spools for a long time. 99.5% are 750g and 1kg spools. If manufacturers simply dont sell them, they wont make them. In other words, no demand = no production.
Thats like the second paragraph in marketing 101
As for the Spool jam with filament, agree 10000%
What's your opinion on Printed Solid filament? Have you tried it? I like their Jessie line.
I do too, I find their PLA very consistent, it's a great price and prints really nicely. They have a great video online where they show their filament quality control process.
how do you feel about prusament.