❤I respectfully disagree on the literature point. The BEST surrealist and horror literature of ALL time is by asian authors (both from Asia and Asian-American) And I still 100% believe that no one can do surrealism or horror like an Asian author. I'm an avid reader. I devour anything horror, anything surrealist. Out of my top 10 in each category, all spots are held by Asian authors in horror and 8 spots in surrealism. And I've literally read thousands of books in my life. And these were books I was able to read in English through my library app. Stephen King is nothing compared with Bora Chung, Junji Ito and Koji Suzuki. You have to read more Asian authors if you really think that Asian literature is derivative or lacking in any way especially because I speak only English and can only read a fraction of what's available by Asian authors.
Wow! This was amazing and so well done! As a Black child of immigrants, I strongly related to Waverly. In high school, I remember asking, "what were Asians and Latinos doing during the 60s?" because our history books only focused on White people and civil rights as it related to Black people. Obviously, that's important, but I think that the lack of education about the discrimination that Asians and Latinos faced and the laws and court cases that helped them resulted in some people from those communities being apolitical and not showing intersectional solidarity. There's so much else I want to say, but it'd turn into an essay. So I'll donate instead :)
Nah they taught us about Asians and Mexicans when I was in middle and high school, you either didn’t pay attention or your school sucked. But they have always put more attention on blacks. As for the attention on the whites is because there were more white immigrants and white people in general in America 🇺🇸 so history will reflect that
@@shizumaakiyama3129 just because my high school experience was different than yours doesn’t make it not real. Lol 😂 you’re the one thinking everything’s the same.
I’m reminded of a essay about black media how and how African American media and how much blackness has been foundational to it how we’re shamed for it othered for it yet it’s so frequently commodified and Us erased from our identity seen as inferior or lesser yet turned into an aesthetic of coolness
Do you happen to know the title and author, and/or link to the essay or video essay? That sounds quite interesting. With this and the older video on _Rush Hour,_ it sounds like a great third companion piece.
I was thinking about how when people want to be rebellious, they “act black.” Which I think is a phrase more so used in the black community but it just goes to show how people can separate seemingly “inborn parts of an identity” and view it as form of expression rather than a state of existing. It’s too much when we talk about the nuances and pain that comes with the original being. But as we can see in the video our struggles can be inflicted upon us and that deserves attention. It’s very interesting how stereotypes can be performed and perceived as a phase or a character trait depending on who’s performing it.
As a Mexican-American, Waverly was someone who I definitely identified with. Always grasping for my mother's approval. What I enjoyed about reading the book in middle school and finally watching the movie as an adult, is remembering that my mom was also a girl. She also had a life, before me. She has wants and wishes, but most importantly she wants me to live. I also appreciate throughout the video, mentions of other representations for other BIPOC individuals. Even though I am Mexican-American, and my family is Mexican, I still struggle to see myself in Media. I don't see myself in strictly Mexican media nor do I see myself in the representation I get in American Media. It's a constant search for myself, and though I can find myself in other cultures' media such as Joy Luck Club, there is still a lack of media for everyone.
i’m noticing similarities between some asian-american men’s reaction to joy luck club and some african-american men’s reaction to the color purple (i’m Black so i can only really speak from my perspective. but it was interesting to see these stories that are very different also have a lot of parallels as well)
I'm sorry, but the representation of Asian men in joy luck club was appalling. To the point that it inspired the Brooklyn hammer attacks, where a white man wielding a hammer attacked and killed 3 Chinese men at a buffet, and later said he was inspired by a movie which showed "the Chinese mistreatment of women" and wanted to be a White savior to chinese women.
I think the color purple had more diverse representation of black men. I saw the new one (the musical theatre adaptation ), and I remember one couple that were quite loving even though they had some toxic tendencies. They definitely were not the center of the story though and one was a distinct antagonist. I didn’t see the joy luck club however, I just know there were no White “knight & shining armors” as love interests in “The Color Purple. “
@@mourgie But can you imagine if there were "White knights" in The Color Purple, and they had to add black men as romantic partners to the leads in the movie because there were none in the book-- and those additions were STILL unflattering racial stereotypes? And then mainstream, mostly-white American culture gobbled that up, celebrated it, and hailed it THE movie and book on African American representation for decades? Oof. Not to mention how a movie about a couple of potheads with a fast food fixation made over a decade later was somehow a massive improvement upon that representation.
Except historically black men always had a presence in Hollywood where as Asian men didn’t outside of king fu. Asian women are sexualized like black men. This is backed up by science. Data science from data apps show that black women and Asian men are the least desired. Sidney Poitier, Denzel, Will Smith, etc while we only ever had Jackie and Bruce who were stereotyped. Sidney’s first major movie was one about interracial relationship with a white women and his character was highly educated. This is at the time when we were busy Fu Manchu.
I’m a first gen Latina and have always enjoyed learning about the American experience of other minority communities in the USA, it helps to connect us IMO. ❤
As a patron having watched this come together piece by piece, the actual release feels like in Avengers Endgame level crossover. I feel like a proud parent.
Seeing this, I realized something. Some things are just universal. They aren't particular to geography. I'm not American! But I'm Asian. I live in Asia. In a country with the 5th largest population in the world. Having a tumultuous past. And yes I can say I can relate to both the mothers and the daughters. I haven't read the novel ; but the way it's discussed in your video, and the experiences of many of the contributors are very much relatable. I think it's part of our Eastern morals and values (a common strain across diverse religions and cultures) . Not to be so validating or reaffirming. My mother never encouraged me nor validated my decisions. She's always cautioning me my siblings. Never outwardly saying " its wrong!". And oh boy would I do anything for her validation and approval. And yet, I somehow understand why she does it..... This video really hit hard!! And I'm not even the targeted audience.
This video is targeted towards the pan Asian experience, or in broad targeted towards Asian people. You’re in the proximity of the experience even if you’re not in the center of the experience.
Yknow I remember growing up and reading The Joy Luck Club in highschool and it really made me feel “seen” and understood even though I’m Mexican American. I never saw the movie though, I definitely should.
To me it is a bit weird but beautiful to relate to this movie. As i am not Asian not even close, but some of the things like "eat more you are too skinny." "but i thought you said i am too fat." It just hits like my old school Bulgarian grandmother. Or We are a part of the family unit and should act accordingly. It is beautiful, how cultures thousands of kilometres away from each other can have these similarities in views, ways of acting, ways of showing love and care, the things they want for their children etc.. Thank you for this. Your video is great.
Thanks for having me, Terrence! Also congratulations on finally finishing this project! I know how hard you were working on it. 😊 I’m glad you ended up watching Joy Ride too and using it in your video essay B-roll! 🔥 Polite Society next! 💪🏻
I personally think stories about father/son relationships are very under-represented in general. Would be great to have nuanced, emotional story telling about men - the burden and pressure placed on boys, lack of communication often, social expectations and how it intersects with attitudes about women, and men’s roles in society. How evolving expectations are shaping men - positive and negative. But I imagine Hollywood probably thinks there’s no market for that kind of movie.
It would be seen as competition for the same resources and against the narrative. All good because AI will allow everyone to create their own media. One day there will be great stories of positive Asian men and their relationships with their sons, daughters, wives and neighbors with awesome positive relationships.
@@briantran3791ai creating narrative on the fly sounds like the most dystopian echo chamber future that will atomize the individual to an existential crisis. Like no one will be hearing each other, they will only listen to the ai algorithm feeding their biases.
I just finished reading Interior Chinatown and I swear, I was thinking of your comment every time the narrator was talking about his dad. I recommend it, it's not a long read even if it's not your cup of tea.
I saw "Joy Luck Club" on Turkish tv back in 2004-2005. I was a regular Turkish teenager and didn't really connect very personally to the immigrant/Asian-American experience but I still thought it was a great movie. I later found a copy of the book in my high school's library read that too. I'm so glad I saw this video, thank you
Great video . I’m Black American and I’m always educating and exposing myself to other human beings experiences within their own culture and their experiences of forces simulation to be accepted. Awesome video.
As important of a story this is, I really wish to see more Asian American films that breaks away from retelling this story of generational differences. There's got to be individuality to Asian Americans that can to be explored. As a half-Chinese from Taiwan, I'm excited by AA films, but only ever find them part way relatable. In many ways, I would relate to the immigrant parents more. Like, Evelyn from EEAAO.
It won’t happen because there is a narrative that needs to be told so that the propaganda and control of others is continued. The good news is that A.I. will change everything.
My husband is Burmese and was born in Taiwan and I think he would echo this sentiment. He’s told me he always felt distant from the mainstream “Asian American” narrative. EEAAO was actually one of the first pieces of media he connected with - specifically seeing his parents’ dynamic reflected in Evelyn and Waymond.
Although I'm Asian-American, I prefer to watch movies from Asia (particularly Hong Kong movies that were filmed before 1997 and some of the Korean movies) than movies about the Asian-American experience. My parents are open-minded, so I never resonated with the Hollywood movies about Asian-Americans. And moving to Asia as a kid helped me understand my parents more. And I learned about the history and what my parents went through when they were kids. I also began to admire Asian culture. I would've never known the positive parts if I never moved to here.
There are plenty of that in Chinese cinema, it's just that Hollywood and writers for hollywood and expats from Asian generally only seem to only know how to tell one story while the old country has largely moved on decades ago.
I just wanted to mention that I was blown away by your sharing (around 40 minutes) what it was like for you growing up with not only a generational divide, but a language barrier, as part of your relationship with your mother. You really helped me to understand how meaning is filtered through the words and metaphors we have to process and convey it - and often those filters build walls between even very closely related people. I know this is at play for my relationship with my mother, despite a shared language, and the reminder to extend grace as well as expecting it is appreciated. That said, the whole video is a clear work of love and you should be proud of it. Great work, as always.
I saw The Joy Luck Club as a child and fell in love with it instantly. I watch it yearly to remind myself of the importance culture and mother daughter relationships. I really love that this channel always somehow dives into the movies I love most. Thank you so much for this.
As a kid in the 90's who grew up watching way too much television who now loves watching media criticism and analysis on the internet, I appreciate all the time, effort, and research it undoubtedly took to create this almost 2 hour long video. Many thanks to all the people who contributed!
interesting! I grew up in Japan as a Japanese. When Joy Luck Club came to Japan in 1994, Chinese and Taiwanese films gained huge popularity, and I only consumed that JLC as another film somehow Chinese-related... and never really thought about its impact. Thank you so much for the video.
That bit about men feeling villainized in a woman’s story certainly sounds familiar ( remembering Brewster’s Place and A Color Purple ), but here’s the thing, art always has been a means of personal expression ( and hopefully will remain so ), and you aren’t obligated to tell a story that isn’t your own, as much as our society continues to try and force artists to do and then crucify them if they are deemed to do it badly. The problem is that the gatekeepers of entertainment tend to favor some viewpoints above others so that we get an over abundance of one type of story over others. If all stories were given equal chance there wouldn’t be this need - a particular burden of minority artists - of being made to feel that every issue and experience has to be represented in their works.
Villianizing men isn't the problem, it's the fact that Joy Luck Club specifically villainizes Asian men while making White men the heroes to Asian women. Misandry isn't the problem here, it's the racism. If both the bad men and good men were all asian, there'd be no problem. The fact that the author herself made it no secret that she's doesn't like Asian men doesn't help either
These concept help to identify who wrote the story bc when men write a story with a leading female, the villain is the mother or other women, and the men are the heroes...
I just saw the move yesterday and I can say that the men being villainized doesn’t quite fit what’s being said. This is movie is based off of a book which is based off of Amy Tan’s personal experiences so it’s very subjective. The same thing can go for anyone’s personal experiences. Also, the types of Asian men one sees in the movie can be found in any race. The chauvinism, misogyny, the infidelity can be found in any man of any given race. It’s just strictly an Asian thing. Lastly, since this is female centered movie, I wouldn’t expect men to feature very prominently. Just in the movie The Women, the female characters took center stage while the men were on the periphery. A movie doesn’t have to satisfy everyone in order to be a great film, it just has to resonate with people.
@@tigertank06 the issue is that Joy Luck Club was one of the only examples of Asian Americans to reach mainstream popularity for the longest time, so it ended up contributing to the unflattering perception of Asian men in the west. Of course, Amy Tan wasn't obligated to tell any story that wasn't true to her, but that was an unfortunate byproduct.
@@mandarinduck It’s unfortunate but it just shows how ignorant the 90’s were. I mean, interracial dating back then was still very small and civil rights issues were along traditional lines from the 60’s. But like I said in my previous comment, you can find men in the Joy Luck Club in any race. I just wish June’s mom’s story was more fleshed out. That was the only character that didn’t have a complete backstory told.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I live in China and 90% of the families I know put immense pressure and expectation on their kids that they will never live up to. It's so common, and hence, a common story in TV and cinema.
To make my reply authentic I will reply in Chinese.😂 其实我觉得要了解真的中国的文化不能只去中国的大城市。中国大城市的小孩家里总是望子成龙的，小朋友总是有补不完的课，但是很多农村或者县城并不是。城市里的家长会这样可能有两个原因，第一个是过去几十年中国经济增长太快了特别是大城市的经济，而这种快导致每一个人只要努力就可以有很大的回报，当努力有超过期望的回报时，每一个成年人都会努力鞭策小孩。第二个是城市里的家长大概率也是通过努力变成城市人的，他们的经历让他们有路径依赖，他们相信他们今天的成就是自己的主观努力造成的。因为我父母一直也是城市人，我父母的成功也不是通过自己主观的努力更多的是时代造成，父母从来也没有给过我太多压力。因为我周围很多都是和我父母类似的家庭，我的同学和朋友中也没有太多受到父母的压力。只是有时候通过努力获得成就的人更喜欢表达他们的观点，不努力的中国人反而成了沉迷的大多数。😂
This might explain why the trope is so common, but it doesn’t explain why there are so few Asian films. At best you can say, well since there’s probably still fewer than ten high profile films about Asian diaspora we won’t expect to see other stories until there are more than that.
I'm not Asian-American, but I am a daughter of immigrants. This movie brings me to tears every time I see it, and each time I've read the book. It reminds me of my mother's lost opportunities, and of mine, of what she wanted for her children and how we disappointed her. My mother passed when I was 24, and we never had a chance to resolve our issues. 54 years later, I still carry some regret.
This was beautifully made and definitely one of my favorites from this channel. Felt like I was watching a documentary feature, and found it every bit relatable. With the recent explosion of Asian-centred media lately (BEEF, Turning Red, EEAAO, etc.), I really do hope we get to see more of our stories on screen - and more diverse sides to it too, as much as I love the mother-daughter angles haha. Thanks for having me! ✨
The Joy Luck Club has been a favorite of mine since I was a teenager, I didn’t know there was a movie! I’m so so glad to hear you speak about all of this, although I’m Mexican American this book spoke to me in a lot of ways just as this video discussing it does. Thanks for a great video as always!
Just a small note to what Yang says around 1:36:00; I think that instead of thinking of these things as problems, it is perhaps more appropriate to characterize them as limitations. There's nothing wrong with limiting the scope of your subjects - film and media cannot fully represent a single individual person without glossing over details, much less attempting to meaningfully capture a multifaceted and infinitely diverse social identity of "Chinese." This is just to say that I don't believe minority creators should be expected to abstain from telling their own stories just because other minorities are not getting the opportunity. I think that by expecting creators (authors, directors, etc. ) to solve these problems, we continue to let producers, studios, and executives off the hook for setting up the circumstances where only monolithic representations of minority communities have a chance to get picked up and promoted while White stories (and really only a narrow representation of even that) continue to hold an oversized grip on the market.
What you’ve said, and what I saw in the film make me wonder if The Joy Luck Club would have been served better if it were a mini-series. How it was set up and going through each character and their mothers one after the other seems a little disjointed. It flow as naturally if it has been a mini-series. I also think that the male characters and June’s mother’s back story would have been fleshed out better.
Amazing work Terrence! Really appreciate the nuance and viewpoints brought by you and the other guests in this video. As a person within the Chinese diaspora, I understand the struggles of finding my identity within a culture that doesn't match my external appearance and the desire to assimilate all too well. Thank you and Steph for the work you have put into this episode and your channel overall. The way you both tackle topics allows me to think differently about the art I consume and my view of the world at large. Please keep up the great work!
I read the book and saw the movie as part of my ESL remedial english class in college, after having immigrated to US only a year prior. I'm not asian, I'm jewish, but I could relate to so much, especially June's experiences. I mean... I even had the same exact haircut as a kid (which made it even easier to see myself in her), but was also pushed into variety of "smart, talented kid" activities and I was just... average at them all. sometimes bellow average. and hearing that disappointment that was always ALWAYS framed as my fault for not working hard enough... I understand perfectly the pushback against "model minority" because those expectations WILL crush you and the only variables are in how badly and for how long will the weight of those expectations affect the rest of your life.
Reading the joy luck club in my high school ap lit class, i found myself angrily relating to the struggle of never being good enough, but instead of my mom being the focal point, it was my dad. Im white but he raised me semi-buddhist as he lived for several years in a monetary and had been doing martial arts for years in staten island and he made sure i was enrolled in some kind of martial art from the time i was 3 until i broke my leg at 10, he has a deep apreciation and love for asian cultures that unfortunately borders on the orientalist at time, but i remember him asking me at one point "you got an A, not an A+" after that scale was no longer used. He also moved out of nyc so i could have a "better life" and i just find it so wild that while of course ill never have to experience the racism and disadvantages of people of color, but i feel like i can at least go "no i get it" when the conversations about never feeling good enough for parents who wanted a baby einstien, yet also loved you in a way that you cant disregard comes up. His parents were immigrants from newfoundland and he told me at one point no one ever wanted anything but for him to not go to jail and become a cab driver, so he wanted more for me. I think like so many others, im still hoping i can someday make him really, truly proud.
Thanks for sharing your story. It took me a long long time to realize that my mom's scathing comments about "why is there an A-", which scarred me as a kid, were responses to her own lived experiences of having no opportunities, and wanting to give everything for me to not live through the same. It's part of growing up to understand that sometimes their lack of approval has nothing to do with us, and everything to do with themselves, and that they themselves are still battling their own demons.
Man, this is what I want my video essays to be. Interviews and thoughtful discourse instead of just regurgitating some else's thought piece. Also it was so pleasant to hear Accented Cinema! Love hearing his opinion.
@@manbat4582 I guess I don't see them as the same. One is someone communicating their own original take on a subject and the other is just...repeating what someone else said without putting any new spin on it.
Amazing video! I found myself riveted by all the discussions surrounding this story and I'd never even heard of the book or watched the movie. I was particularly fascinated by the discussion on the burden of representation. I'm a Black writer and I've seen a lot of narratives depicting "the Black experience". I find that I can't relate to a good lot of them. That doesn't mean that these black narratives are not valid; it simply means that some other Black writers got to express their truth. That is meaningful in itself. If anything, it inspires me to write about my own stories and fill in the gaps. No one story can (nor should) carry all expectations of representation for all. Now I'm going to try and find Joy Luck Club in my local library. It sounds like a fantastic book.
I understand the "internalized racism". When you are in a environment where you just want to fit in, you might try to reject your cultural roots. I'm Chinese, I was born there and I grew up there. I've been living in Europe for years. Even when I was little I was more into western cultures and media. I've always been good at learning languages and I speak without discernable accent. Some see this as a rejection of my own culture. But like, why do I have to be into "my own traditional culture"? No, I'm not ashamed of it, I'm just not super interested. It does also annoy me how some French people are too happy to see a foreigner who's well spoken and embraces their culture. It's condescending if they only like you because you try to fit in. I am an individual, I don't want to be put in a box. But I have a face that doesn't allow me to disappear into the crowd. I always have to explain where I come from. I know that these days taking pride in your roots and being non apologetic about is politically correct, but I'm just tired of the whole thing.
Lol somehow I got the feeling this would be the next Terrence video essay this is a really important step for asian american history in film but somehow I never see people talk about it. I was assigned the book over spring break in my AP english class the very little I read was really incredible I’ll likely go back to it one day.
This was the best video essay I have seen in a while! It was fact based, emotional, empathetic and just raised so many good points. I found myself agreeing and connecting with every point made. I never watched the movie nor read the book but you reminded me that I read Two kinds by Amy Tan which is a short story embedded in the movie/book. You made me want to watch this film and read the book! Additionally, you related its flaws with honesty and compassion for its time period and context. I hope many more get to see this master piece and subscribe to your channel like I did!🥳 Everyone in the video did so well too!🤩💐
This is superb, empathetic and nuanced, clearly a lot of work went into this, bravo! And what a great selection of other commentators (it's a particular pleasure to encounter Accented Cinema here but I valued the contributions of all of them). I hope this video gets a large viewership, it certainly deserves it.
One of the failings of the human race is that we have short memories. A lot of the poverty and the suffering that many Asians in the early to middle of the 20th century faced was at the hands of the brutal colonialism and invading forces. So I feel that the criticisms of the Joy Luck Club about the "othering" of Asian culture neglects to note that it is important to acknowledge that the culture was thus and while first generation Chinese (and other Asian) immigrants aspire to give the next generation a much better life (which is a very human trait, whether Asian, Western or other). That said, one's identity is rooted in who we are growing up and I think Joy Luck Club did a great job of portraying the complexity of challenges faced by immigrants to a Western country.
40:06 this part here about not being to express my thoughts fully in my mothers tongue really hits home to me. I’m a viet American too, and one point in my life was able to speak but I have forgotten a lot. There’s things I wish to say to my parents to help them understand me, but I just don’t know what to say in Vietnamese to actually get what I want through to them. But after this video I’m definitely going to go watch the joy luck club!
Haha I had started up a long comment complaining that your discussion of the film's treatment of Asian men didn't include Lena's current-day partner or June's father but you ended up making the exact points I wanted to make with them after all :) Instead I'll say that the "men's representation" issue really highlights how much this film is about women in a gender-segregated culture that shows men through those women's eyes, and I think we need to consider the "Chinese men are evil" issue in that context. I would argue that the film shows a perspective where good husbands are defined by their invisibility. It's not that they don't *exist*, it's that their wives - and therefore the movie - don't have any stories to tell about them! Lena's new partner, An-mei's father, Suyuan's first husband are all men we know nothing about, but their place in their respective narratives frames them as positive, as happy states the women are working towards or remembering... so it's kind of *suggested* that they were or will be good husbands. Even the husbands Lindo and An-mei had their daughters with are kind of implied to be decent husbands just from the fact the women are portrayed as not being the type to put up with the alternative (and more to the point as having escaped their previous miserable existence which was defined by a bad marriage - it would make no narrative sense for their current marriages to be equally bad even if it's technically possible. Just like it's technically possible for An-mei's father or Suyuan's first husbands to have been abusive and those women yearned for them only because their current circumstances were worse... but narrative runs on vibes and those aren't the vibes). Even June's father, the only husband we are explicitly *shown* to be a good husband, is shown this way not through any of the older women's perspective but through his daughter's! And even so his narrative value as a husband is to be his wife's spokesperson, and his narrative value as a father is to deepen his daughter's bond with her mother. That in turn kind of betrays the blind spots of this women's perspective IMO because it kind of makes one wonder why he didn't intervene before, or why his relationship with his daughter isn't explored, and that question answers itself: he wasn't involved in tracking down the twins because it didn't occur to the Joy Luck Club ladies to involve him. His relationship with his daughter isn't explored because this film is about June's relationship with her mother, and in this gender-segregated culture there isn't much overlap between her two parental relationships. So even though his intervention seems to fit the "good men should be seen and not heard" or "good husbands are all good in the same way [and so don't need to be discussed]" perspective of the film and the Joy Luck Club ladies it still feels like a bit of a break of that perspective, a reminder of "oh wait this man does exist, and he saw his wife in a way nobody else has shown signs of - there is another perspective here that we're not seeing". I'd guess this is an intrinsic feature of these stories that are told through a specific, potentially unreliable perspective. You need those stories because seeing the world through that perspective helps understand it, but if you want to *also* represent the "real" world that this specific perspective hides you really have only two options. First, you can show different perspectives and bridge the gaps between them - but that changes the story. It's what The Joy Luck Club does with the perspectives of mothers and daughters; it could do the same with those of husbands and wives or fathers and daughters but that would make it a completely different story. The only alternative is to show glimpses of the "real" world or of different perspectives. And in that context I think any criticism of that kind of story has to either account for the glimpses even if they're not dominant (and so not ignore Lena's husband and especially June's father when listing the Asian men in the story), or they have to be a criticism that the story is being told at all. Even if that were fair in 2024 (and I wonder - we do seem inundated with immigrant/Asian mother/daughter stories but your clips also showed male-centered parallels like The Big Sick or Master of None) it wouldn't be fair for The Joy Luck Club IMO which comes from 1993 where this definitely wasn't the case. I also have thoughts on the white husbands and think that criticism is also unfair given the story being told. The adaptation itself reveals a bit of a catch-22 with the husbands: in the book they're all white, which is a problem, and in the film one of them is Asian but he's the bad husband, which is also a problem. The obvious "fix" would be to switch one of the "good husband's" races but you can't because "being white" is a critical aspect of their role in the story. Waverly's husband wouldn't work at all as Chinese, and you *could* make Rose's husband Chinese... if you wanted to make "Crazy Rich Asians", which isn't this film isn't. So the problem is that the two white-coded husbands are also the good husbands... But I would argue that *this is their point*. They're two different explorations of the issues a Chinese woman can run into marrying a white man *even if he's good*: him struggling to fit in your world, and you struggling to fit in his world. The book apparently also explored the issues that arise *when he's also bad* with Lena's husband (I'm curious now how his abuse was contrasted/compared to that of the Asian abusive husbands in the book), but the movie sacrificed that in favor of adding a Chinese husband. At some point you have to ask, should those issues *not* be explored? And how many women would the film need to include to give a balanced portrayal of every possible combination of traits a Chinese woman's husband could have? In summary: great video, thanks ! It made me watch The Joy Luck Club which I'd never done and I really loved it. Especially Rosalind Chao, who I wanted to watch the second I saw her in the clips and I was certain it was because she's a hugely famous actress but I eventually realized it was 100% Keiko O'Brien feelings
Okay, this is very interesting? I wondered why June's father didn't got to China with her and figured it makes sense somehow, but apparently in the book he did! That does affect my view of how the film deals with men because I don't think there is much excuse for the change IMO. Sure, it makes the female-centered mother/daughter themes stronger, but it would have been easy enough to have him tagging along with little comment, not part of the action per se but still visible and one of those "glimpses" into the fact that actually good men do exist in this world, they're just not what this story is about.
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful video ❤ Thank you so much. Representation is so important and also: stories! Stories are so important! I LOVED the Joy Luck Club and it’s one of mine and my mom’s favorites. 30 years later we still quote it, think of it, wonder what became of the characters and all in all appreciated more the complexities of identity. And mind you, this was in 1990’s Venezuela, where there’s an important Chinese community we know very little about. Thanks again for this video. I didn’t realize it was over an hour long. I didn’t want it to end!
The Joy Luck Club is one of my favorite books ever. I’ve had to buy it multiple times bc I keep moving and having to unload my book collection. I’m as white as mayonnaise, and the complex mother-daughter relationships, never being good enough, feelings of inadequacy spoke to me (and still do) so deeply. I’ve read everything Amy Tan has ever written. I’d never thought very deeply about the movie, although I love it. But I don’t feel qualified to critique it, either. I love your video about my favorite characters, and thank you for the time and work you put into it.
I could not put that book down! I need to see the movie again! So brilliant! I live Hawai'i and love the Asian influences into the culture. And then Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was a huge revelation for me, seeing it so many times and loved how the casting drew from so many Asian actor favorites!
As a Korean teenager who has lived in both Korea and America during my ongoing academic years, I can of course attest to the pressures put on children and all the other pressures of living in modern countries that only recently became industrialized and expanded. Yet as widespread as that part of our culture is, this is not the only part of our culture that should be depicted in media. The lack of diverse and complex representation in media that tries to be diverse and complex reduces unique and nuanced experiences into monotone stereotypes that while are part of an evolutionary process in trying to diversify stories in media, might do more harm than good to the cultural connotations and views of a country/culture in the eyes of the general public who is not actively analyzing media and only consuming passively.
1:27:00 In the documentary, Slanted Screen, Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa said that as an Asian male actor that if his roles were narrowed down to being either a wimp or a bad guy, then the worst thing he could be is a wimpy bad guy. Hence, we have his phenomenal performance as Shang Tsung.
This is possibly the most beautiful video essay I have ever seen. It's treating a topic with such kindness and depth, as well as seriously insightful analysis. Really incredible work
I watched JLC as a teen, and it really hit me and fucked me up in a good way, but I have yet been able to rewatch it. The characters were so real to me, and their pain is still fresh in my mind when it comes up. Thank you for this retrospective project. You're doing inspiring work, meaningful work, and it is seen and appreciated.
I am using this video as a reference to my final essay for my Asian American US Institutions class. The amount of detail is particularly astounding! Thank you for putting this out here. It's important that the our story has to be told. Much love!
Coming out was the big rebellious moment for me that allowed me to get my parents to talk to me on the same level. With time, I think we thought we were about to lose each other and that let us stop trying to maintain appearances to each other. After a lot of yelling.
The stories featuring Asian Americans that I think need more love are Fire Island (2022) a romantic comedy-that clearly is a modern retelling of a story that will be obvious to some-and “The Magic Fish” a YA graphic novel that gives a twist to common fairy tales. Also, the loyalty to watch or support more Asian American projects meant I thought the movies “Joy Ride” and “Quiz Ladies” were extremely unfunny-except for Ashley Park’s dedication to sing in all her projects, you go girl; I remember your Mean Girls era-but I am glad that they exist for people because things like “The Half of It” and “Everything Everywhere All At Once” also exist EDIT: btw remember to keep talking about Gaza, folks. Free Palestine 💜
The behavior of "normal" people often shocks and appalls me. I grew up isolated and never went to public school. Even in the late 90's, we were explicitly taught through storybooks/children's tv shows/school that it was wrong to make fun of people for having different cultures/you should NEVER mock someone's food. To come to understand that this was not a common lesson in the public schools explains a lot about society. Did anyone else have the Puzzle Place as a part of their curriculum?
What an amazing video! Thanks so much for the nuanced approach and analysis, there’s so much to talk about around Joy Luck Club and the differences in how we create and consume Asian media in the thirty years that have passed since it was released
I've never seen the movie or heard of it, I have no connection to either Asia or USA, so it's lucky the algorithm suggested I watch a two hour video deep dive into an experience that is so worth understanding
Regarding that last part about representation. When I was a kid, I subconsciously looked for Asian representation in things I watched. I was drawn towards Asian-coded characters and then got into Japanese anime. And I think it was because I wanted to find myself in what I watched.
I also want to clarify what it means to be "American". I feel like a lot of Asian immigrants or maybe even immigrants of other countries view the average American as "white". I am NOT white, I am mixed race and as American as apple pie lol. My family generation traces all the way back to slavery and Native American ancestry. I feel like this view needs to be challenged. Not all Americans are "white".
As a kid, I wanted there to be Asian representation. Now that there's more, I personally still feel unrepresented, because the vast majority of Asian representation focuses on 1st or 2nd generation, and their unique experiences, but I'm fourth generation. It seems we haven't reached the "galaxy brain" tier that actually there are also Asian Americans who have lived for so many generations in America that the 1st or 2nd generation experience isn't relatable to them. There are surely families out there with even longer histories than mine as there were immigrants from Asia as far back as the 1850's California gold rush. Also, I don't think (I haven't watched the entire video yet, as it's very long) this video mentioned the 1980 Shogun miniseries, which, if so, I feel like is a pretty big omission. From my understanding, it was something of a pop culture phenomenon and obviously very much ahead of its time, as it had a cast that featured many famous (in Japan) actors performing in their native language.
i was born in china in the early 2000s and then adopted as a baby by a white american family. i don't know any chinese (yet) and was only exposed to chinese culture through children's asian-themed books that were predominantly about valuing family and pandas. however, being raised by an ableist racist family who continously wanted me to be "like all the smart asians" (doctors, nurses, math geniuses) has made me increasingly closed off to my family. my mother homeschooled me and low grades were punished via verbal and occasionally physical abuse, as me not understanding a lesson was seen as completely my fault since she believed that she was doing the explanations perfectly. even with a strong southern accent, i still get asked racist questions about whether i will "eat my horse" or if i want "rice and sushi instead" in public by close friends of my family. i'm thankful that there is more asian representation in media lately; i just hope that it continues and the stories broaden, if that makes sense. i will probably never be able to meet my blood family, a fact that i still struggle with and cannot seem to find the right words for. but i am looking to learn chinese in the future and one day i wish to visit the country where i was born. i'm glad this video popped up in my recommended; i will definitely be reading/watching the joy luck club.
Stories like yours are why I hate international adoptions. It's always going one way but never the other and the ones getting the babies are usually not good people. I'm sorry you have this family but hope you find your future home.
As someone who is struggling with all the things, thank you, your guests and team for all these videos that have helped me understand much better the complexities of all these issues.
Saavy writes books mentioned an example regarding why bisexual women may pick men to be in relationships. There is a point to this. I promise. She said that if you have a room that has more men than women, you are going to have more opportunities to pick a man that you have a connection with. I wonder if why (at least for the movie) 2 of the daughters picked white men due to proximity. The more they tries to assimilate to the white culture, the more they focused on marrying these white men. Also, they are in closer proximity with these white men. But am glad Jenevia brought up the internalized racism that Rose had because I did not pick up on that and adds to why she fell for Ted.
Yeah, even though there's a chance they'll find chinese or asian men who think like them, there's a greater chance they'd feel connected or internal pressure to marry foreign men, I feel definitely the same, i wouldn't marry in my own race if it came with a culture i didn't identify with
My mom speaks extensively of the hardships she experienced growing up in a poor pork pedaling family of 13 kids among 3 wives in 1950’s Singapore, but that hardly makes it any more accessible to me, my siblings and multitude of cousins (the majority of whom were raised in the East). She would never want us to know that pain, and for that sacrifice I am Waverly, and have always ever been American. I can only try to compensate for the individual attention I lost as a result of my mother’s practical enslavement by trying to be better for my Asian daughters - to appreciate their individual strengths even if the world won’t.
Had this on in the background while drawing the film looks great I like to hear stories that are something relatable on a human level but alien on the level of lived experience I really hope more people tell their stories that only they can tell, great video
I’m African-American but always resonated more with Asian-American films for this reason. Amy Tan was the only adult author I would read from high school up until my 30s. My relationship with my mother was always complicated; very much like Asians. Exactly like The Joy Lyck Club and everything Amy Tan’s American-born characters ever felt. I have heard middle class African immigrants have similar experiences. But Black American films were not my lived experience except for a focus on black men being toxic. None of my aunts were married and all the Black men I knew had cheated, were alcoholics, or SA’ers. The Christian religion in every film also felt alienating and annoying as someone who began to question it during my teen years and eventually became agnostic/atheist/Buddhist. The heavy focus on a mother figure doing the most for her kids who she tried to uplift left me resentful. I began to resent popular Black films for making me feel alienated and “other” despite my Blackness. And don’t get me started on Jim Crow-era films. Only recently have films with majority Black casts stepped into other genres (horror, pure comedy that doesn’t center around some gangster or neighborhood in the projects) and themes that aren’t race-specific and I’m thankful for that. My dad still turns into a raging hateful man whenever the subject of me not being Christian is brought up. Anyway, yes, all of these Asian films are healing and go right over my own mother’s head as to the underlying messages of toxic parenting and resolving generational trauma. The first queer films I ever watched were made in Asia or featured Asian-diaspora as well. I can understand though how some Asians may be sick of the narrative being repeated the same way I’m sick of Jim Crow or feel-good Black Christian Family films.
1974 Downey California. Growing up with my Asian brothers , we have family values, but to be honest. My asian brothers always had to satisfy parents expectations or not receive love. I remember , they feared going home after school due to a B in class, .. they had peanuts expectations. As a Mexicano, were loved as we are. Frank
I read a lot of Amy Tan's books long after high school, but I can see why many of her books were recommended reading for schools. They really feel immersive in an extremely difficult and complicated series of relationships between countries, languages, cultures and genders. But honestly, I had a teacher in college about ten years ago who was Chinese. She was asked if she was teaching her child the language and culture. She answered that she had been a prisoner of the State and was kept in inhumane conditions before she was able to get out somehow, and became an American citizen. Not everyone has fond memories, or great personal relationships in what would be their own stories :C
Epic and incredible. I never had to read the book in school and I've never seen the movie, but the book has always been around, always something we kept at our library because it's iconic. I've followed actors like Ming Na Wen and Tamlyn Tomita for years through their voice acting and SF/Fantasy work and had no idea they were both in this, and so young! This video is such an achievement. It reminds me of dissertations I've seen. Beautifully done.
I'm so glad you touched upon how specifically Asian men are portrayed in deeply negative ways. While its true that much of east Asia is still highly patriarchal there are many of us (likem myself) who are not like that, and we're often swept under the rug or be portrayed as super macho in historically negative ways, or in super model minority ways. While Asian women or Asian-American women are fetishized in return. As much as I enjoyed the Joy Luck Club for what it is, having this realization as an informed adult makes it hard to appreciate the movie now. Its as hard to watch as Breakfasts At Tiffany's. Great film, but with a damaging representation. EDIT: there's also the deeply immasculate nerdy creep representation like in 16 Candles. And the self-degredation humor that Dr Ken Jeong makes on himself, sometimes even racist. But anyways, I'm glad I'm seeing positive steps in representing us in my lifetime.
Yes, you hit the nail on the head with 16 candles. Upon my first watch, I was so confused as to why the film is so beloved? A lot of 80s rom-com's are actually so problematic in terms of "innocent" stalking, "innocent" abuse, and "innocent" relationships with a large age gap and then they romantize the heck out of it.
I'm not Asian, and I likely have seen significantly less Asian American media than you, but I think this might not be as much of a thing in recent years? Like within the past 5 years. I genuinely can't think of any recent examples of bad Asian men in American media, besides like, Persuasion
@@roelin360 I think it's changed a lot, recently, but the last 50+ years of being mocked has seared itself into us, and it's hard to move on. I mean, for me, it's literally a lifetime of bad representations, and I'm pretty old.
I think an "intersectional" attitude is to listen to people at different intersections than onesself, to try and understand. I remember liking JLC, and then later hearing the criticisms. They are legit criticisms, but JLC is a story with a specific viewpoint: Chinese American women and their mothers. It should be viewed with the goal of understanding. Asian Am men and women have been pitted against each other in these representation conflicts. Since the men don't get as much representation in film, the discussion ends up on the internet. Unfortunately, this discussion has been branded as misogynist, and often, dismissed; people need to listen. This also applies to Asian American men. I hated the anti-Asian part of 16 Candles, but brushed it off, but I lived in an area with a lot of Asians Americans (aka the SoCal Asians). I knew it was shitty, but I didn't have to face a bunch of people making fun of us by using lines from the movie, like other Asian guys in less Asian areas did. So, I had to learn to listen, too.
I feel like the Asian American film troupe of tiger parents and pressured child stories are so frequently common in only Asian American media. I’m Chinese-Vietnamese American immigrant but my Asian parents mostly exposed me to Chinese films like C Drama or TVB and I mostly watched anime as a kid before K dramas. Even before the internet, my parents find DVD stores to buy Chinese films cus they don’t know English to watch American films. These troupes aren’t that common in Chinese films, which has politics, actions, historical fantasy or concubine dramas. So it only makes sense most Asian American media has these troupes cus they’re written by Asian Americans with these real experiences, which I don’t really find relatable either as Asian American cus my mother never has the desire for herself or me a daughter to be the BEST, lol she even said “who am I in competition with?” My mom only wants me to be self sustaining. The most hurtful thing she said to me when I played too much video games instead of studying is “you’re gonna regret playing games when you’re broke and homeless as an adult”. Again this is just my outlier experience, so it’s cool learning how most Asian families actually worked. But I do find it weird Americans only cared about oppressed Asian American women experiences, where are the men?
This is was very well done. I am a Black American so I don’t have many of the cultural connections and nonetheless Joy Luck Club has stuck with me since I read it in high school. I still haven’t seen the movie but I know the tears will come haha. Stories of coming of age, family saga, identity and so on get me so of course this is a favorite.
As a first gen Latino this movie recks me every time. It’s a literal masterpiece and one of the best depictions of generational trauma ever put to film. Thanks for highlighting one of my favorite movies ❤
You told a very good story. I’m not Asian or Asian diaspora (I’m not white either) but I found this very well put together, and it makes me want to think more about things like my sister’s relationship with our mother, and especially my Asian friends and how this dynamic has played out in their lives. Thanks for creating this video.
Now I am not Asian American, but I am mixed with 4 different cultures. Born in one country in one continent, moved to another country in another continent as a child and my parents are from two different countries in yet another continent. So I feel, not quite fitting into any culture 100%, not quite being accepted by any of them and the weird looks and comments from people.
i remember having to read the joy luck club in high school and loved it! recently got around to watching the movie and loved hearing the way you and everyone involved delved into it more than i thought to. wonderful deep dive!
This was amazingly educational thank you so much for all your hard work! It was worth every second! This was fantastic, nuanced and thorough! Beautifully done!
I'm not Asian but love the horror coming out of Japan and South Korea. Balled my eyes out watching Crouching Tiger and Everything All At Once. And still watch anime to this day. I think in the hands of its own people movies and tv shows, there's a creative touch that can't be matched by hollywood or outside source even if it is not recognized or appreciated as it should be.
While some of the similarities are due to the fact that the people that are creating these stories simply have shared experiences, its also likely that they've been a bit pigeon holed by what producers think will sell to audiences.
As an Asian-American writer/artist, thank you for bringing up the Asian American male rep problem, because lately, I've been struggling with working out whether or not one of my characters crosses into stereotype territory. (While the story isn't technically the US, it is US-adjacent). I usually just try to write the character but I realized that I need to hit the right amount of masculinity, neither too dorky nor too macho/toxic. While there are plenty of great real-life models for me to study- people in my life- writing it out is so different. Maybe if I feel brave enough I'll ask my Asian ¨brothers" (not biological) what they feel about their rep.
I've never watched The Joy Luck Club. When it came out I thought of it as a crowd-pleaser and something I might not enjoy. Now I'll have to take a look. For me one of the most impactful asian films was Edward Yang's Yi Yi.
I think I was 12 when I read it, if I remember correctly. The Joy Luck club was not my first introduction to Asian literature (that is, East Asian literature), but it was the first book I had read that had really resonated with me more than all the others I had read, despite me not even being of any Asian descent. This resonance wasn't even primarily because I related to it (though I did, very much so), but rather it was written in such a way that I felt a close connection to the characters and the culture they were born from. I agree with Cheyenne Lin (and I loved seeing her pop-up here after watching her for a whlle now), it was a little difficult to read just because the amount of characters. However, I resolved this by keeping out a separate sheet of paper with all the names of the characters and marking plot-points as I discovered them, lol! One thing I think is important to fully appreciating stories that vary from your own world view is learning history. I hated history with a passion, but not after I began reading these kinds of stories like the Joy Luck Club and, when TH-cam got bigger, watching video essays about books and movies I read and watched. I wanted to understand more of what I was reading and began to look things up which led me down a path of reading about historical events that weren't white-centered nor gratified to suit such audiences by downplaying any events or only focusing on certain aspects of said events for those same reasons. I researched what happened in China when the Japanese armies invaded it after reading the Joy Luck Club and wanting to find out why it happened, and why Suyuan thought she had to escape, why she was thinking and acting in such ways after such an event. Which led me down a list of other countries that they invaded and what happened to them, how they survived, and how they coped, and this was especially so when hearing and reading first-hand accounts. And this same chain of events happened with other books as well. I also cried while reading the Joy Luck Club and I cried again watching this video. It is so well done and I can tell it is definitely a love project as all the videos I have found on this channel seem to be.
I may have missed it, but Rose answering, "I'm American," hit me much differently in ways I didn't see touched upon in this discussion. Firstly, the implication that someone who is a particular ethnicity (i.e., not obviously of northern European decent) cannot also be American is blatantly confronted. I didn't feel that Rose was discarding her Chinese heritage so much as defending her status as an American, which she has the right to do whether her background would have been Chinese or Vietnamese. Secondly, if she had corrected the microaggression by staying, "I'm Chinese," it might have-in the context of the above-implied that Chinese Americans should be more acceptable than Vietnamese Americans to the person she was speaking to. Of course, the reality is that all Asians are Other to such a person.
I'd love to see you cover the impact of early 2000 movies like Better Luck Tomorrow that tried to break the Asian American model citizen mold and how it slots into the different trends and themes in Hollywood.
I am Peruvian of some Japanese descent that emigrated here at 7. It’s super common in Peru. I didn’t think my “Asianess” was odd or weird until I got here. My mixture overall was very emphasized here.
Saw the video pre-release and was amazed by every second of it. I'm honored to be part of a great video!
Love your channel🌺❤
Why people like join that club
I saw you Idol!!!
❤I respectfully disagree on the literature point. The BEST surrealist and horror literature of ALL time is by asian authors (both from Asia and Asian-American) And I still 100% believe that no one can do surrealism or horror like an Asian author. I'm an avid reader. I devour anything horror, anything surrealist. Out of my top 10 in each category, all spots are held by Asian authors in horror and 8 spots in surrealism. And I've literally read thousands of books in my life. And these were books I was able to read in English through my library app. Stephen King is nothing compared with Bora Chung, Junji Ito and Koji Suzuki. You have to read more Asian authors if you really think that Asian literature is derivative or lacking in any way especially because I speak only English and can only read a fraction of what's available by Asian authors.
Wow! This was amazing and so well done! As a Black child of immigrants, I strongly related to Waverly. In high school, I remember asking, "what were Asians and Latinos doing during the 60s?" because our history books only focused on White people and civil rights as it related to Black people. Obviously, that's important, but I think that the lack of education about the discrimination that Asians and Latinos faced and the laws and court cases that helped them resulted in some people from those communities being apolitical and not showing intersectional solidarity. There's so much else I want to say, but it'd turn into an essay. So I'll donate instead :)
I agree that should be talked about
Nah they taught us about Asians and Mexicans when I was in middle and high school, you either didn’t pay attention or your school sucked. But they have always put more attention on blacks. As for the attention on the whites is because there were more white immigrants and white people in general in America 🇺🇸 so history will reflect that
@@ashesandposies keep living in delusion.
@@shizumaakiyama3129 just because my high school experience was different than yours doesn’t make it not real. Lol 😂 you’re the one thinking everything’s the same.
油白黑墨绿黄 了解一下😊
I’m reminded of a essay about black media how and how African American media and how much blackness has been foundational to it how we’re shamed for it othered for it yet it’s so frequently commodified and Us erased from our identity seen as inferior or lesser yet turned into an aesthetic of coolness
Do you happen to know the title and author, and/or link to the essay or video essay? That sounds quite interesting. With this and the older video on _Rush Hour,_ it sounds like a great third companion piece.
Can you send the title of the essay?
Nope they say ur fat... not skinny
I was thinking about how when people want to be rebellious, they “act black.” Which I think is a phrase more so used in the black community but it just goes to show how people can separate seemingly “inborn parts of an identity” and view it as form of expression rather than a state of existing. It’s too much when we talk about the nuances and pain that comes with the original being. But as we can see in the video our struggles can be inflicted upon us and that deserves attention. It’s very interesting how stereotypes can be performed and perceived as a phase or a character trait depending on who’s performing it.
As a Mexican-American, Waverly was someone who I definitely identified with. Always grasping for my mother's approval. What I enjoyed about reading the book in middle school and finally watching the movie as an adult, is remembering that my mom was also a girl. She also had a life, before me. She has wants and wishes, but most importantly she wants me to live. I also appreciate throughout the video, mentions of other representations for other BIPOC individuals. Even though I am Mexican-American, and my family is Mexican, I still struggle to see myself in Media. I don't see myself in strictly Mexican media nor do I see myself in the representation I get in American Media. It's a constant search for myself, and though I can find myself in other cultures' media such as Joy Luck Club, there is still a lack of media for everyone.
i’m noticing similarities between some asian-american men’s reaction to joy luck club and some african-american men’s reaction to the color purple (i’m Black so i can only really speak from my perspective. but it was interesting to see these stories that are very different also have a lot of parallels as well)
I'm sorry, but the representation of Asian men in joy luck club was appalling. To the point that it inspired the Brooklyn hammer attacks, where a white man wielding a hammer attacked and killed 3 Chinese men at a buffet, and later said he was inspired by a movie which showed "the Chinese mistreatment of women" and wanted to be a White savior to chinese women.
You have people still cite the joy luck club as reason to not date asian men?
I think the color purple had more diverse representation of black men. I saw the new one (the musical theatre adaptation ), and I remember one couple that were quite loving even though they had some toxic tendencies. They definitely were not the center of the story though and one was a distinct antagonist. I didn’t see the joy luck club however, I just know there were no White “knight & shining armors” as love interests in “The Color Purple. “
@@mourgie But can you imagine if there were "White knights" in The Color Purple, and they had to add black men as romantic partners to the leads in the movie because there were none in the book-- and those additions were STILL unflattering racial stereotypes?
And then mainstream, mostly-white American culture gobbled that up, celebrated it, and hailed it THE movie and book on African American representation for decades?
Oof.
Not to mention how a movie about a couple of potheads with a fast food fixation made over a decade later was somehow a massive improvement upon that representation.
Except historically black men always had a presence in Hollywood where as Asian men didn’t outside of king fu. Asian women are sexualized like black men. This is backed up by science. Data science from data apps show that black women and Asian men are the least desired. Sidney Poitier, Denzel, Will Smith, etc while we only ever had Jackie and Bruce who were stereotyped. Sidney’s first major movie was one about interracial relationship with a white women and his character was highly educated. This is at the time when we were busy Fu Manchu.
I’m a first gen Latina and have always enjoyed learning about the American experience of other minority communities in the USA, it helps to connect us IMO. ❤
As a Black American descendent of enslaved people, I feel the same way.
@d.r.7396
Why you gotta say it all like that?????
As a patron having watched this come together piece by piece, the actual release feels like in Avengers Endgame level crossover. I feel like a proud parent.
Seeing this, I realized something. Some things are just universal. They aren't particular to geography.
I'm not American! But I'm Asian. I live in Asia. In a country with the 5th largest population in the world. Having a tumultuous past.
And yes I can say I can relate to both the mothers and the daughters. I haven't read the novel ; but the way it's discussed in your video, and the experiences of many of the contributors are very much relatable.
I think it's part of our Eastern morals and values (a common strain across diverse religions and cultures) . Not to be so validating or reaffirming. My mother never encouraged me nor validated my decisions. She's always cautioning me my siblings. Never outwardly saying " its wrong!". And oh boy would I do anything for her validation and approval. And yet, I somehow understand why she does it.....
This video really hit hard!! And I'm not even the targeted audience.
Are you Chinese Indonesian? If that’s the case your experience is closer to the movie that you think.
This video is targeted towards the pan Asian experience, or in broad targeted towards Asian people. You’re in the proximity of the experience even if you’re not in the center of the experience.
Yknow I remember growing up and reading The Joy Luck Club in highschool and it really made me feel “seen” and understood even though I’m Mexican American. I never saw the movie though, I definitely should.
The movie is really good
To me it is a bit weird but beautiful to relate to this movie. As i am not Asian not even close, but some of the things like "eat more you are too skinny." "but i thought you said i am too fat." It just hits like my old school Bulgarian grandmother. Or We are a part of the family unit and should act accordingly. It is beautiful, how cultures thousands of kilometres away from each other can have these similarities in views, ways of acting, ways of showing love and care, the things they want for their children etc.. Thank you for this. Your video is great.
Thanks for having me, Terrence! Also congratulations on finally finishing this project! I know how hard you were working on it. 😊
I’m glad you ended up watching Joy Ride too and using it in your video essay B-roll! 🔥
Polite Society next! 💪🏻
I personally think stories about father/son relationships are very under-represented in general. Would be great to have nuanced, emotional story telling about men - the burden and pressure placed on boys, lack of communication often, social expectations and how it intersects with attitudes about women, and men’s roles in society. How evolving expectations are shaping men - positive and negative. But I imagine Hollywood probably thinks there’s no market for that kind of movie.
Hopefully, an independent studio could make that type of film since father/son relationship films are under represented in the media.
It would be seen as competition for the same resources and against the narrative. All good because AI will allow everyone to create their own media.
One day there will be great stories of positive Asian men and their relationships with their sons, daughters, wives and neighbors with awesome positive relationships.
You should check out A Sun! Great Taiwanese film on this topic precisely.
@@briantran3791ai creating narrative on the fly sounds like the most dystopian echo chamber future that will atomize the individual to an existential crisis. Like no one will be hearing each other, they will only listen to the ai algorithm feeding their biases.
I just finished reading Interior Chinatown and I swear, I was thinking of your comment every time the narrator was talking about his dad. I recommend it, it's not a long read even if it's not your cup of tea.
I saw "Joy Luck Club" on Turkish tv back in 2004-2005. I was a regular Turkish teenager and didn't really connect very personally to the immigrant/Asian-American experience but I still thought it was a great movie. I later found a copy of the book in my high school's library read that too. I'm so glad I saw this video, thank you
Great to finally see this one!! Thanks so much for having me 👏💗
Great video . I’m Black American and I’m always educating and exposing myself to other human beings experiences within their own culture and their experiences of forces simulation to be accepted. Awesome video.
As important of a story this is, I really wish to see more Asian American films that breaks away from retelling this story of generational differences. There's got to be individuality to Asian Americans that can to be explored. As a half-Chinese from Taiwan, I'm excited by AA films, but only ever find them part way relatable. In many ways, I would relate to the immigrant parents more. Like, Evelyn from EEAAO.
It won’t happen because there is a narrative that needs to be told so that the propaganda and control of others is continued. The good news is that A.I. will change everything.
My husband is Burmese and was born in Taiwan and I think he would echo this sentiment. He’s told me he always felt distant from the mainstream “Asian American” narrative. EEAAO was actually one of the first pieces of media he connected with - specifically seeing his parents’ dynamic reflected in Evelyn and Waymond.
Although I'm Asian-American, I prefer to watch movies from Asia (particularly Hong Kong movies that were filmed before 1997 and some of the Korean movies) than movies about the Asian-American experience. My parents are open-minded, so I never resonated with the Hollywood movies about Asian-Americans. And moving to Asia as a kid helped me understand my parents more. And I learned about the history and what my parents went through when they were kids. I also began to admire Asian culture. I would've never known the positive parts if I never moved to here.
Honestly, that’s how I felt too.
There are plenty of that in Chinese cinema, it's just that Hollywood and writers for hollywood and expats from Asian generally only seem to only know how to tell one story while the old country has largely moved on decades ago.
I just wanted to mention that I was blown away by your sharing (around 40 minutes) what it was like for you growing up with not only a generational divide, but a language barrier, as part of your relationship with your mother. You really helped me to understand how meaning is filtered through the words and metaphors we have to process and convey it - and often those filters build walls between even very closely related people. I know this is at play for my relationship with my mother, despite a shared language, and the reminder to extend grace as well as expecting it is appreciated.
That said, the whole video is a clear work of love and you should be proud of it. Great work, as always.
I saw The Joy Luck Club as a child and fell in love with it instantly. I watch it yearly to remind myself of the importance culture and mother daughter relationships. I really love that this channel always somehow dives into the movies I love most. Thank you so much for this.
As a kid in the 90's who grew up watching way too much television who now loves watching media criticism and analysis on the internet, I appreciate all the time, effort, and research it undoubtedly took to create this almost 2 hour long video. Many thanks to all the people who contributed!
this was so much fun to partake in!
interesting! I grew up in Japan as a Japanese. When Joy Luck Club came to Japan in 1994, Chinese and Taiwanese films gained huge popularity, and I only consumed that JLC as another film somehow Chinese-related... and never really thought about its impact. Thank you so much for the video.
That bit about men feeling villainized in a woman’s story certainly sounds familiar ( remembering Brewster’s Place and A Color Purple ), but here’s the thing, art always has been a means of personal expression ( and hopefully will remain so ), and you aren’t obligated to tell a story that isn’t your own, as much as our society continues to try and force artists to do and then crucify them if they are deemed to do it badly. The problem is that the gatekeepers of entertainment tend to favor some viewpoints above others so that we get an over abundance of one type of story over others. If all stories were given equal chance there wouldn’t be this need - a particular burden of minority artists - of being made to feel that every issue and experience has to be represented in their works.
Villianizing men isn't the problem, it's the fact that Joy Luck Club specifically villainizes Asian men while making White men the heroes to Asian women. Misandry isn't the problem here, it's the racism. If both the bad men and good men were all asian, there'd be no problem.
The fact that the author herself made it no secret that she's doesn't like Asian men doesn't help either
These concept help to identify who wrote the story bc when men write a story with a leading female, the villain is the mother or other women, and the men are the heroes...
I just saw the move yesterday and I can say that the men being villainized doesn’t quite fit what’s being said. This is movie is based off of a book which is based off of Amy Tan’s personal experiences so it’s very subjective. The same thing can go for anyone’s personal experiences.
Also, the types of Asian men one sees in the movie can be found in any race. The chauvinism, misogyny, the infidelity can be found in any man of any given race. It’s just strictly an Asian thing.
Lastly, since this is female centered movie, I wouldn’t expect men to feature very prominently. Just in the movie The Women, the female characters took center stage while the men were on the periphery. A movie doesn’t have to satisfy everyone in order to be a great film, it just has to resonate with people.
@@tigertank06 the issue is that Joy Luck Club was one of the only examples of Asian Americans to reach mainstream popularity for the longest time, so it ended up contributing to the unflattering perception of Asian men in the west. Of course, Amy Tan wasn't obligated to tell any story that wasn't true to her, but that was an unfortunate byproduct.
@@mandarinduck It’s unfortunate but it just shows how ignorant the 90’s were. I mean, interracial dating back then was still very small and civil rights issues were along traditional lines from the 60’s.
But like I said in my previous comment, you can find men in the Joy Luck Club in any race. I just wish June’s mom’s story was more fleshed out. That was the only character that didn’t have a complete backstory told.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I live in China and 90% of the families I know put immense pressure and expectation on their kids that they will never live up to. It's so common, and hence, a common story in TV and cinema.
Your not being a jerk , it’s true. Always feel sorry for their kids.
To make my reply authentic I will reply in Chinese.😂 其实我觉得要了解真的中国的文化不能只去中国的大城市。中国大城市的小孩家里总是望子成龙的，小朋友总是有补不完的课，但是很多农村或者县城并不是。城市里的家长会这样可能有两个原因，第一个是过去几十年中国经济增长太快了特别是大城市的经济，而这种快导致每一个人只要努力就可以有很大的回报，当努力有超过期望的回报时，每一个成年人都会努力鞭策小孩。第二个是城市里的家长大概率也是通过努力变成城市人的，他们的经历让他们有路径依赖，他们相信他们今天的成就是自己的主观努力造成的。因为我父母一直也是城市人，我父母的成功也不是通过自己主观的努力更多的是时代造成，父母从来也没有给过我太多压力。因为我周围很多都是和我父母类似的家庭，我的同学和朋友中也没有太多受到父母的压力。只是有时候通过努力获得成就的人更喜欢表达他们的观点，不努力的中国人反而成了沉迷的大多数。😂
@@yuli3186 Thanks for the reply! I'm glad to have more context.
This might explain why the trope is so common, but it doesn’t explain why there are so few Asian films. At best you can say, well since there’s probably still fewer than ten high profile films about Asian diaspora we won’t expect to see other stories until there are more than that.
@@MadaxeMunkeee Perfect comment
I'm not Asian-American, but I am a daughter of immigrants. This movie brings me to tears every time I see it, and each time I've read the book. It reminds me of my mother's lost opportunities, and of mine, of what she wanted for her children and how we disappointed her. My mother passed when I was 24, and we never had a chance to resolve our issues. 54 years later, I still carry some regret.
This was beautifully made and definitely one of my favorites from this channel. Felt like I was watching a documentary feature, and found it every bit relatable. With the recent explosion of Asian-centred media lately (BEEF, Turning Red, EEAAO, etc.), I really do hope we get to see more of our stories on screen - and more diverse sides to it too, as much as I love the mother-daughter angles haha. Thanks for having me! ✨
The Joy Luck Club has been a favorite of mine since I was a teenager, I didn’t know there was a movie! I’m so so glad to hear you speak about all of this, although I’m Mexican American this book spoke to me in a lot of ways just as this video discussing it does. Thanks for a great video as always!
Just a small note to what Yang says around 1:36:00; I think that instead of thinking of these things as problems, it is perhaps more appropriate to characterize them as limitations. There's nothing wrong with limiting the scope of your subjects - film and media cannot fully represent a single individual person without glossing over details, much less attempting to meaningfully capture a multifaceted and infinitely diverse social identity of "Chinese."
This is just to say that I don't believe minority creators should be expected to abstain from telling their own stories just because other minorities are not getting the opportunity. I think that by expecting creators (authors, directors, etc. ) to solve these problems, we continue to let producers, studios, and executives off the hook for setting up the circumstances where only monolithic representations of minority communities have a chance to get picked up and promoted while White stories (and really only a narrow representation of even that) continue to hold an oversized grip on the market.
What you’ve said, and what I saw in the film make me wonder if The Joy Luck Club would have been served better if it were a mini-series.
How it was set up and going through each character and their mothers one after the other seems a little disjointed. It flow as naturally if it has been a mini-series. I also think that the male characters and June’s mother’s back story would have been fleshed out better.
thought i would watch this in chunks, ended up watching it all in one sitting. great video!
Amy Tan is such a talented writer, including her nonfiction writing. She is one of my favorite authors ever.
Amazing work Terrence! Really appreciate the nuance and viewpoints brought by you and the other guests in this video. As a person within the Chinese diaspora, I understand the struggles of finding my identity within a culture that doesn't match my external appearance and the desire to assimilate all too well. Thank you and Steph for the work you have put into this episode and your channel overall. The way you both tackle topics allows me to think differently about the art I consume and my view of the world at large. Please keep up the great work!
We’ll try our best 🥹. I’m glad our videos can leave an impression!
I cried when I first watched this movie. I must have been 13? It was my first time having such an intimate emotion watching a film.
I read the book and saw the movie as part of my ESL remedial english class in college, after having immigrated to US only a year prior. I'm not asian, I'm jewish, but I could relate to so much, especially June's experiences. I mean... I even had the same exact haircut as a kid (which made it even easier to see myself in her), but was also pushed into variety of "smart, talented kid" activities and I was just... average at them all. sometimes bellow average. and hearing that disappointment that was always ALWAYS framed as my fault for not working hard enough...
I understand perfectly the pushback against "model minority" because those expectations WILL crush you and the only variables are in how badly and for how long will the weight of those expectations affect the rest of your life.
Reading the joy luck club in my high school ap lit class, i found myself angrily relating to the struggle of never being good enough, but instead of my mom being the focal point, it was my dad. Im white but he raised me semi-buddhist as he lived for several years in a monetary and had been doing martial arts for years in staten island and he made sure i was enrolled in some kind of martial art from the time i was 3 until i broke my leg at 10, he has a deep apreciation and love for asian cultures that unfortunately borders on the orientalist at time, but i remember him asking me at one point "you got an A, not an A+" after that scale was no longer used. He also moved out of nyc so i could have a "better life" and i just find it so wild that while of course ill never have to experience the racism and disadvantages of people of color, but i feel like i can at least go "no i get it" when the conversations about never feeling good enough for parents who wanted a baby einstien, yet also loved you in a way that you cant disregard comes up. His parents were immigrants from newfoundland and he told me at one point no one ever wanted anything but for him to not go to jail and become a cab driver, so he wanted more for me. I think like so many others, im still hoping i can someday make him really, truly proud.
Thanks for sharing your story. It took me a long long time to realize that my mom's scathing comments about "why is there an A-", which scarred me as a kid, were responses to her own lived experiences of having no opportunities, and wanting to give everything for me to not live through the same. It's part of growing up to understand that sometimes their lack of approval has nothing to do with us, and everything to do with themselves, and that they themselves are still battling their own demons.
Man, this is what I want my video essays to be. Interviews and thoughtful discourse instead of just regurgitating some else's thought piece. Also it was so pleasant to hear Accented Cinema! Love hearing his opinion.
thoughtful discourse and someone else's thought piece. Aren't both the same thing?
@@manbat4582 I guess I don't see them as the same. One is someone communicating their own original take on a subject and the other is just...repeating what someone else said without putting any new spin on it.
Amazing video! I found myself riveted by all the discussions surrounding this story and I'd never even heard of the book or watched the movie. I was particularly fascinated by the discussion on the burden of representation. I'm a Black writer and I've seen a lot of narratives depicting "the Black experience". I find that I can't relate to a good lot of them. That doesn't mean that these black narratives are not valid; it simply means that some other Black writers got to express their truth. That is meaningful in itself. If anything, it inspires me to write about my own stories and fill in the gaps. No one story can (nor should) carry all expectations of representation for all.
Now I'm going to try and find Joy Luck Club in my local library. It sounds like a fantastic book.
I understand the "internalized racism". When you are in a environment where you just want to fit in, you might try to reject your cultural roots. I'm Chinese, I was born there and I grew up there. I've been living in Europe for years. Even when I was little I was more into western cultures and media. I've always been good at learning languages and I speak without discernable accent. Some see this as a rejection of my own culture. But like, why do I have to be into "my own traditional culture"? No, I'm not ashamed of it, I'm just not super interested. It does also annoy me how some French people are too happy to see a foreigner who's well spoken and embraces their culture. It's condescending if they only like you because you try to fit in. I am an individual, I don't want to be put in a box. But I have a face that doesn't allow me to disappear into the crowd. I always have to explain where I come from. I know that these days taking pride in your roots and being non apologetic about is politically correct, but I'm just tired of the whole thing.
Lol somehow I got the feeling this would be the next Terrence video essay this is a really important step for asian american history in film but somehow I never see people talk about it. I was assigned the book over spring break in my AP english class the very little I read was really incredible I’ll likely go back to it one day.
This was the best video essay I have seen in a while! It was fact based, emotional, empathetic and just raised so many good points. I found myself agreeing and connecting with every point made. I never watched the movie nor read the book but you reminded me that I read Two kinds by Amy Tan which is a short story embedded in the movie/book. You made me want to watch this film and read the book! Additionally, you related its flaws with honesty and compassion for its time period and context. I hope many more get to see this master piece and subscribe to your channel like I did!🥳
Everyone in the video did so well too!🤩💐
This is superb, empathetic and nuanced, clearly a lot of work went into this, bravo! And what a great selection of other commentators (it's a particular pleasure to encounter Accented Cinema here but I valued the contributions of all of them). I hope this video gets a large viewership, it certainly deserves it.
No one owns authenticity is something I have to explain to those who feel i dont meet some kind of asian American expectations.
As a 33 year old Arab man, I balled my eyes out cuz I could relate so much with the daughters as I had the same barriers with my dad.
I remember a guy at work telling me he and his wife cried their eyes out at this movie and to bring a whole box of Kleenex. I used most of that box.
One of the failings of the human race is that we have short memories. A lot of the poverty and the suffering that many Asians in the early to middle of the 20th century faced was at the hands of the brutal colonialism and invading forces. So I feel that the criticisms of the Joy Luck Club about the "othering" of Asian culture neglects to note that it is important to acknowledge that the culture was thus and while first generation Chinese (and other Asian) immigrants aspire to give the next generation a much better life (which is a very human trait, whether Asian, Western or other). That said, one's identity is rooted in who we are growing up and I think Joy Luck Club did a great job of portraying the complexity of challenges faced by immigrants to a Western country.
40:06 this part here about not being to express my thoughts fully in my mothers tongue really hits home to me. I’m a viet American too, and one point in my life was able to speak but I have forgotten a lot. There’s things I wish to say to my parents to help them understand me, but I just don’t know what to say in Vietnamese to actually get what I want through to them. But after this video I’m definitely going to go watch the joy luck club!
Haha I had started up a long comment complaining that your discussion of the film's treatment of Asian men didn't include Lena's current-day partner or June's father but you ended up making the exact points I wanted to make with them after all :)
Instead I'll say that the "men's representation" issue really highlights how much this film is about women in a gender-segregated culture that shows men through those women's eyes, and I think we need to consider the "Chinese men are evil" issue in that context. I would argue that the film shows a perspective where good husbands are defined by their invisibility. It's not that they don't *exist*, it's that their wives - and therefore the movie - don't have any stories to tell about them! Lena's new partner, An-mei's father, Suyuan's first husband are all men we know nothing about, but their place in their respective narratives frames them as positive, as happy states the women are working towards or remembering... so it's kind of *suggested* that they were or will be good husbands. Even the husbands Lindo and An-mei had their daughters with are kind of implied to be decent husbands just from the fact the women are portrayed as not being the type to put up with the alternative (and more to the point as having escaped their previous miserable existence which was defined by a bad marriage - it would make no narrative sense for their current marriages to be equally bad even if it's technically possible. Just like it's technically possible for An-mei's father or Suyuan's first husbands to have been abusive and those women yearned for them only because their current circumstances were worse... but narrative runs on vibes and those aren't the vibes). Even June's father, the only husband we are explicitly *shown* to be a good husband, is shown this way not through any of the older women's perspective but through his daughter's! And even so his narrative value as a husband is to be his wife's spokesperson, and his narrative value as a father is to deepen his daughter's bond with her mother. That in turn kind of betrays the blind spots of this women's perspective IMO because it kind of makes one wonder why he didn't intervene before, or why his relationship with his daughter isn't explored, and that question answers itself: he wasn't involved in tracking down the twins because it didn't occur to the Joy Luck Club ladies to involve him. His relationship with his daughter isn't explored because this film is about June's relationship with her mother, and in this gender-segregated culture there isn't much overlap between her two parental relationships. So even though his intervention seems to fit the "good men should be seen and not heard" or "good husbands are all good in the same way [and so don't need to be discussed]" perspective of the film and the Joy Luck Club ladies it still feels like a bit of a break of that perspective, a reminder of "oh wait this man does exist, and he saw his wife in a way nobody else has shown signs of - there is another perspective here that we're not seeing".
I'd guess this is an intrinsic feature of these stories that are told through a specific, potentially unreliable perspective. You need those stories because seeing the world through that perspective helps understand it, but if you want to *also* represent the "real" world that this specific perspective hides you really have only two options. First, you can show different perspectives and bridge the gaps between them - but that changes the story. It's what The Joy Luck Club does with the perspectives of mothers and daughters; it could do the same with those of husbands and wives or fathers and daughters but that would make it a completely different story. The only alternative is to show glimpses of the "real" world or of different perspectives. And in that context I think any criticism of that kind of story has to either account for the glimpses even if they're not dominant (and so not ignore Lena's husband and especially June's father when listing the Asian men in the story), or they have to be a criticism that the story is being told at all. Even if that were fair in 2024 (and I wonder - we do seem inundated with immigrant/Asian mother/daughter stories but your clips also showed male-centered parallels like The Big Sick or Master of None) it wouldn't be fair for The Joy Luck Club IMO which comes from 1993 where this definitely wasn't the case.
I also have thoughts on the white husbands and think that criticism is also unfair given the story being told. The adaptation itself reveals a bit of a catch-22 with the husbands: in the book they're all white, which is a problem, and in the film one of them is Asian but he's the bad husband, which is also a problem. The obvious "fix" would be to switch one of the "good husband's" races but you can't because "being white" is a critical aspect of their role in the story. Waverly's husband wouldn't work at all as Chinese, and you *could* make Rose's husband Chinese... if you wanted to make "Crazy Rich Asians", which isn't this film isn't. So the problem is that the two white-coded husbands are also the good husbands... But I would argue that *this is their point*. They're two different explorations of the issues a Chinese woman can run into marrying a white man *even if he's good*: him struggling to fit in your world, and you struggling to fit in his world. The book apparently also explored the issues that arise *when he's also bad* with Lena's husband (I'm curious now how his abuse was contrasted/compared to that of the Asian abusive husbands in the book), but the movie sacrificed that in favor of adding a Chinese husband. At some point you have to ask, should those issues *not* be explored? And how many women would the film need to include to give a balanced portrayal of every possible combination of traits a Chinese woman's husband could have?
In summary: great video, thanks ! It made me watch The Joy Luck Club which I'd never done and I really loved it. Especially Rosalind Chao, who I wanted to watch the second I saw her in the clips and I was certain it was because she's a hugely famous actress but I eventually realized it was 100% Keiko O'Brien feelings
Okay, this is very interesting? I wondered why June's father didn't got to China with her and figured it makes sense somehow, but apparently in the book he did! That does affect my view of how the film deals with men because I don't think there is much excuse for the change IMO. Sure, it makes the female-centered mother/daughter themes stronger, but it would have been easy enough to have him tagging along with little comment, not part of the action per se but still visible and one of those "glimpses" into the fact that actually good men do exist in this world, they're just not what this story is about.
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful video ❤ Thank you so much. Representation is so important and also: stories! Stories are so important! I LOVED the Joy Luck Club and it’s one of mine and my mom’s favorites. 30 years later we still quote it, think of it, wonder what became of the characters and all in all appreciated more the complexities of identity. And mind you, this was in 1990’s Venezuela, where there’s an important Chinese community we know very little about. Thanks again for this video. I didn’t realize it was over an hour long. I didn’t want it to end!
The Joy Luck Club is one of my favorite books ever. I’ve had to buy it multiple times bc I keep moving and having to unload my book collection. I’m as white as mayonnaise, and the complex mother-daughter relationships, never being good enough, feelings of inadequacy spoke to me (and still do) so deeply. I’ve read everything Amy Tan has ever written. I’d never thought very deeply about the movie, although I love it. But I don’t feel qualified to critique it, either. I love your video about my favorite characters, and thank you for the time and work you put into it.
I could not put that book down! I need to see the movie again! So brilliant! I live Hawai'i and love the Asian influences into the culture. And then Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was a huge revelation for me, seeing it so many times and loved how the casting drew from so many Asian actor favorites!
As a Korean teenager who has lived in both Korea and America during my ongoing academic years, I can of course attest to the pressures put on children and all the other pressures of living in modern countries that only recently became industrialized and expanded. Yet as widespread as that part of our culture is, this is not the only part of our culture that should be depicted in media. The lack of diverse and complex representation in media that tries to be diverse and complex reduces unique and nuanced experiences into monotone stereotypes that while are part of an evolutionary process in trying to diversify stories in media, might do more harm than good to the cultural connotations and views of a country/culture in the eyes of the general public who is not actively analyzing media and only consuming passively.
1:27:00 In the documentary, Slanted Screen, Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa said that as an Asian male actor that if his roles were narrowed down to being either a wimp or a bad guy, then the worst thing he could be is a wimpy bad guy. Hence, we have his phenomenal performance as Shang Tsung.
Great video! Thank you for all the time and effort that went into it to all the participants as well as the both of you!
This is possibly the most beautiful video essay I have ever seen. It's treating a topic with such kindness and depth, as well as seriously insightful analysis. Really incredible work
I watched JLC as a teen, and it really hit me and fucked me up in a good way, but I have yet been able to rewatch it. The characters were so real to me, and their pain is still fresh in my mind when it comes up. Thank you for this retrospective project. You're doing inspiring work, meaningful work, and it is seen and appreciated.
I think you would like some of Tan's other books too. I've read 4.
This video made my heart melt 💙 Thank you all for sharing your stories.
This video is a masterpiece!! thank you so much for all the work and heart you put into this ❤
I am using this video as a reference to my final essay for my Asian American US Institutions class. The amount of detail is particularly astounding! Thank you for putting this out here. It's important that the our story has to be told. Much love!
Coming out was the big rebellious moment for me that allowed me to get my parents to talk to me on the same level. With time, I think we thought we were about to lose each other and that let us stop trying to maintain appearances to each other. After a lot of yelling.
The stories featuring Asian Americans that I think need more love are Fire Island (2022) a romantic comedy-that clearly is a modern retelling of a story that will be obvious to some-and “The Magic Fish” a YA graphic novel that gives a twist to common fairy tales.
Also, the loyalty to watch or support more Asian American projects meant I thought the movies “Joy Ride” and “Quiz Ladies” were extremely unfunny-except for Ashley Park’s dedication to sing in all her projects, you go girl; I remember your Mean Girls era-but I am glad that they exist for people because things like “The Half of It” and “Everything Everywhere All At Once” also exist
EDIT: btw remember to keep talking about Gaza, folks. Free Palestine 💜
The behavior of "normal" people often shocks and appalls me. I grew up isolated and never went to public school. Even in the late 90's, we were explicitly taught through storybooks/children's tv shows/school that it was wrong to make fun of people for having different cultures/you should NEVER mock someone's food. To come to understand that this was not a common lesson in the public schools explains a lot about society. Did anyone else have the Puzzle Place as a part of their curriculum?
Wait I’m sorry if this sounds rude, but did that mean you didn’t have formal primary education? 0_0
What an amazing video! Thanks so much for the nuanced approach and analysis, there’s so much to talk about around Joy Luck Club and the differences in how we create and consume Asian media in the thirty years that have passed since it was released
I've never seen the movie or heard of it, I have no connection to either Asia or USA, so it's lucky the algorithm suggested I watch a two hour video deep dive into an experience that is so worth understanding
Regarding that last part about representation. When I was a kid, I subconsciously looked for Asian representation in things I watched. I was drawn towards Asian-coded characters and then got into Japanese anime. And I think it was because I wanted to find myself in what I watched.
I also want to clarify what it means to be "American". I feel like a lot of Asian immigrants or maybe even immigrants of other countries view the average American as "white". I am NOT white, I am mixed race and as American as apple pie lol. My family generation traces all the way back to slavery and Native American ancestry. I feel like this view needs to be challenged. Not all Americans are "white".
As a kid, I wanted there to be Asian representation. Now that there's more, I personally still feel unrepresented, because the vast majority of Asian representation focuses on 1st or 2nd generation, and their unique experiences, but I'm fourth generation. It seems we haven't reached the "galaxy brain" tier that actually there are also Asian Americans who have lived for so many generations in America that the 1st or 2nd generation experience isn't relatable to them. There are surely families out there with even longer histories than mine as there were immigrants from Asia as far back as the 1850's California gold rush.
Also, I don't think (I haven't watched the entire video yet, as it's very long) this video mentioned the 1980 Shogun miniseries, which, if so, I feel like is a pretty big omission. From my understanding, it was something of a pop culture phenomenon and obviously very much ahead of its time, as it had a cast that featured many famous (in Japan) actors performing in their native language.
i was born in china in the early 2000s and then adopted as a baby by a white american family. i don't know any chinese (yet) and was only exposed to chinese culture through children's asian-themed books that were predominantly about valuing family and pandas. however, being raised by an ableist racist family who continously wanted me to be "like all the smart asians" (doctors, nurses, math geniuses) has made me increasingly closed off to my family. my mother homeschooled me and low grades were punished via verbal and occasionally physical abuse, as me not understanding a lesson was seen as completely my fault since she believed that she was doing the explanations perfectly.
even with a strong southern accent, i still get asked racist questions about whether i will "eat my horse" or if i want "rice and sushi instead" in public by close friends of my family. i'm thankful that there is more asian representation in media lately; i just hope that it continues and the stories broaden, if that makes sense. i will probably never be able to meet my blood family, a fact that i still struggle with and cannot seem to find the right words for. but i am looking to learn chinese in the future and one day i wish to visit the country where i was born. i'm glad this video popped up in my recommended; i will definitely be reading/watching the joy luck club.
Stories like yours are why I hate international adoptions. It's always going one way but never the other and the ones getting the babies are usually not good people. I'm sorry you have this family but hope you find your future home.
As someone who is struggling with all the things, thank you, your guests and team for all these videos that have helped me understand much better the complexities of all these issues.
Saavy writes books mentioned an example regarding why bisexual women may pick men to be in relationships. There is a point to this. I promise.
She said that if you have a room that has more men than women, you are going to have more opportunities to pick a man that you have a connection with.
I wonder if why (at least for the movie) 2 of the daughters picked white men due to proximity. The more they tries to assimilate to the white culture, the more they focused on marrying these white men. Also, they are in closer proximity with these white men.
But am glad Jenevia brought up the internalized racism that Rose had because I did not pick up on that and adds to why she fell for Ted.
Yeah, even though there's a chance they'll find chinese or asian men who think like them, there's a greater chance they'd feel connected or internal pressure to marry foreign men,
I feel definitely the same, i wouldn't marry in my own race if it came with a culture i didn't identify with
My mom speaks extensively of the hardships she experienced growing up in a poor pork pedaling family of 13 kids among 3 wives in 1950’s Singapore, but that hardly makes it any more accessible to me, my siblings and multitude of cousins (the majority of whom were raised in the East). She would never want us to know that pain, and for that sacrifice I am Waverly, and have always ever been American.
I can only try to compensate for the individual attention I lost as a result of my mother’s practical enslavement by trying to be better for my Asian daughters - to appreciate their individual strengths even if the world won’t.
Had this on in the background while drawing the film looks great I like to hear stories that are something relatable on a human level but alien on the level of lived experience I really hope more people tell their stories that only they can tell, great video
I loved this video so much. I can't express how deeply this moved me. Thank you.
Waited to watch this til I had time and grateful I did. Thank you for the lovely video and hard work!
I’m African-American but always resonated more with Asian-American films for this reason. Amy Tan was the only adult author I would read from high school up until my 30s. My relationship with my mother was always complicated; very much like Asians. Exactly like The Joy Lyck Club and everything Amy Tan’s American-born characters ever felt. I have heard middle class African immigrants have similar experiences. But Black American films were not my lived experience except for a focus on black men being toxic. None of my aunts were married and all the Black men I knew had cheated, were alcoholics, or SA’ers. The Christian religion in every film also felt alienating and annoying as someone who began to question it during my teen years and eventually became agnostic/atheist/Buddhist. The heavy focus on a mother figure doing the most for her kids who she tried to uplift left me resentful. I began to resent popular Black films for making me feel alienated and “other” despite my Blackness. And don’t get me started on Jim Crow-era films. Only recently have films with majority Black casts stepped into other genres (horror, pure comedy that doesn’t center around some gangster or neighborhood in the projects) and themes that aren’t race-specific and I’m thankful for that. My dad still turns into a raging hateful man whenever the subject of me not being Christian is brought up. Anyway, yes, all of these Asian films are healing and go right over my own mother’s head as to the underlying messages of toxic parenting and resolving generational trauma. The first queer films I ever watched were made in Asia or featured Asian-diaspora as well. I can understand though how some Asians may be sick of the narrative being repeated the same way I’m sick of Jim Crow or feel-good Black Christian Family films.
1974 Downey California. Growing up with my Asian brothers , we have family values, but to be honest. My asian brothers always had to satisfy parents expectations or not receive love. I remember , they feared going home after school due to a B in class, .. they had peanuts expectations. As a Mexicano, were loved as we are. Frank
I read a lot of Amy Tan's books long after high school, but I can see why many of her books were recommended reading for schools. They really feel immersive in an extremely difficult and complicated series of relationships between countries, languages, cultures and genders.
But honestly, I had a teacher in college about ten years ago who was Chinese. She was asked if she was teaching her child the language and culture. She answered that she had been a prisoner of the State and was kept in inhumane conditions before she was able to get out somehow, and became an American citizen. Not everyone has fond memories, or great personal relationships in what would be their own stories :C
Epic and incredible. I never had to read the book in school and I've never seen the movie, but the book has always been around, always something we kept at our library because it's iconic. I've followed actors like Ming Na Wen and Tamlyn Tomita for years through their voice acting and SF/Fantasy work and had no idea they were both in this, and so young!
This video is such an achievement. It reminds me of dissertations I've seen. Beautifully done.
This came together really well!
I'm so glad you touched upon how specifically Asian men are portrayed in deeply negative ways. While its true that much of east Asia is still highly patriarchal there are many of us (likem myself) who are not like that, and we're often swept under the rug or be portrayed as super macho in historically negative ways, or in super model minority ways. While Asian women or Asian-American women are fetishized in return. As much as I enjoyed the Joy Luck Club for what it is, having this realization as an informed adult makes it hard to appreciate the movie now. Its as hard to watch as Breakfasts At Tiffany's. Great film, but with a damaging representation.
EDIT: there's also the deeply immasculate nerdy creep representation like in 16 Candles. And the self-degredation humor that Dr Ken Jeong makes on himself, sometimes even racist. But anyways, I'm glad I'm seeing positive steps in representing us in my lifetime.
Yes, you hit the nail on the head with 16 candles. Upon my first watch, I was so confused as to why the film is so beloved?
A lot of 80s rom-com's are actually so problematic in terms of "innocent" stalking, "innocent" abuse, and "innocent" relationships with a large age gap and then they romantize the heck out of it.
I'm not Asian, and I likely have seen significantly less Asian American media than you, but I think this might not be as much of a thing in recent years? Like within the past 5 years.
I genuinely can't think of any recent examples of bad Asian men in American media, besides like, Persuasion
@@roelin360 I think it's changed a lot, recently, but the last 50+ years of being mocked has seared itself into us, and it's hard to move on. I mean, for me, it's literally a lifetime of bad representations, and I'm pretty old.
I think an "intersectional" attitude is to listen to people at different intersections than onesself, to try and understand. I remember liking JLC, and then later hearing the criticisms. They are legit criticisms, but JLC is a story with a specific viewpoint: Chinese American women and their mothers. It should be viewed with the goal of understanding.
Asian Am men and women have been pitted against each other in these representation conflicts. Since the men don't get as much representation in film, the discussion ends up on the internet. Unfortunately, this discussion has been branded as misogynist, and often, dismissed; people need to listen.
This also applies to Asian American men. I hated the anti-Asian part of 16 Candles, but brushed it off, but I lived in an area with a lot of Asians Americans (aka the SoCal Asians). I knew it was shitty, but I didn't have to face a bunch of people making fun of us by using lines from the movie, like other Asian guys in less Asian areas did. So, I had to learn to listen, too.
As a fellow Thinking Miguel I agree 🇵🇭
I feel like the Asian American film troupe of tiger parents and pressured child stories are so frequently common in only Asian American media. I’m Chinese-Vietnamese American immigrant but my Asian parents mostly exposed me to Chinese films like C Drama or TVB and I mostly watched anime as a kid before K dramas. Even before the internet, my parents find DVD stores to buy Chinese films cus they don’t know English to watch American films. These troupes aren’t that common in Chinese films, which has politics, actions, historical fantasy or concubine dramas. So it only makes sense most Asian American media has these troupes cus they’re written by Asian Americans with these real experiences, which I don’t really find relatable either as Asian American cus my mother never has the desire for herself or me a daughter to be the BEST, lol she even said “who am I in competition with?” My mom only wants me to be self sustaining. The most hurtful thing she said to me when I played too much video games instead of studying is “you’re gonna regret playing games when you’re broke and homeless as an adult”. Again this is just my outlier experience, so it’s cool learning how most Asian families actually worked. But I do find it weird Americans only cared about oppressed Asian American women experiences, where are the men?
This is was very well done. I am a Black American so I don’t have many of the cultural connections and nonetheless Joy Luck Club has stuck with me since I read it in high school. I still haven’t seen the movie but I know the tears will come haha. Stories of coming of age, family saga, identity and so on get me so of course this is a favorite.
As a first gen Latino this movie recks me every time. It’s a literal masterpiece and one of the best depictions of generational trauma ever put to film. Thanks for highlighting one of my favorite movies ❤
You told a very good story. I’m not Asian or Asian diaspora (I’m not white either) but I found this very well put together, and it makes me want to think more about things like my sister’s relationship with our mother, and especially my Asian friends and how this dynamic has played out in their lives. Thanks for creating this video.
I enjoyed this video! Good balance of researched material, direct interviews, and personal opinions.
My favorite little brown fire ball was in this!
Now I am not Asian American, but I am mixed with 4 different cultures. Born in one country in one continent, moved to another country in another continent as a child and my parents are from two different countries in yet another continent. So I feel, not quite fitting into any culture 100%, not quite being accepted by any of them and the weird looks and comments from people.
i remember having to read the joy luck club in high school and loved it! recently got around to watching the movie and loved hearing the way you and everyone involved delved into it more than i thought to. wonderful deep dive!
This was amazingly educational thank you so much for all your hard work! It was worth every second! This was fantastic, nuanced and thorough! Beautifully done!
This was my book review project in high school its 94 pages. Its bringing me so much good memories
This was so well made, I’ve never read or watched joy luck club before but I’m very excited to see it for myself - amazing video!
wow, I'm so excited to see these interviews. You got some great picks.
I'm not Asian but love the horror coming out of Japan and South Korea. Balled my eyes out watching Crouching Tiger and Everything All At Once. And still watch anime to this day. I think in the hands of its own people movies and tv shows, there's a creative touch that can't be matched by hollywood or outside source even if it is not recognized or appreciated as it should be.
While some of the similarities are due to the fact that the people that are creating these stories simply have shared experiences, its also likely that they've been a bit pigeon holed by what producers think will sell to audiences.
This is amazing! Thank you for this 👏🏽
This was a beautiful video essay. Thank you for putting in the work to lay out truly a comprehensive body of work.
As an Asian-American writer/artist, thank you for bringing up the Asian American male rep problem, because lately, I've been struggling with working out whether or not one of my characters crosses into stereotype territory. (While the story isn't technically the US, it is US-adjacent). I usually just try to write the character but I realized that I need to hit the right amount of masculinity, neither too dorky nor too macho/toxic. While there are plenty of great real-life models for me to study- people in my life- writing it out is so different. Maybe if I feel brave enough I'll ask my Asian ¨brothers" (not biological) what they feel about their rep.
I've never watched The Joy Luck Club. When it came out I thought of it as a crowd-pleaser and something I might not enjoy. Now I'll have to take a look. For me one of the most impactful asian films was Edward Yang's Yi Yi.
I think I was 12 when I read it, if I remember correctly. The Joy Luck club was not my first introduction to Asian literature (that is, East Asian literature), but it was the first book I had read that had really resonated with me more than all the others I had read, despite me not even being of any Asian descent. This resonance wasn't even primarily because I related to it (though I did, very much so), but rather it was written in such a way that I felt a close connection to the characters and the culture they were born from.
I agree with Cheyenne Lin (and I loved seeing her pop-up here after watching her for a whlle now), it was a little difficult to read just because the amount of characters. However, I resolved this by keeping out a separate sheet of paper with all the names of the characters and marking plot-points as I discovered them, lol!
One thing I think is important to fully appreciating stories that vary from your own world view is learning history. I hated history with a passion, but not after I began reading these kinds of stories like the Joy Luck Club and, when TH-cam got bigger, watching video essays about books and movies I read and watched. I wanted to understand more of what I was reading and began to look things up which led me down a path of reading about historical events that weren't white-centered nor gratified to suit such audiences by downplaying any events or only focusing on certain aspects of said events for those same reasons. I researched what happened in China when the Japanese armies invaded it after reading the Joy Luck Club and wanting to find out why it happened, and why Suyuan thought she had to escape, why she was thinking and acting in such ways after such an event. Which led me down a list of other countries that they invaded and what happened to them, how they survived, and how they coped, and this was especially so when hearing and reading first-hand accounts. And this same chain of events happened with other books as well.
I also cried while reading the Joy Luck Club and I cried again watching this video. It is so well done and I can tell it is definitely a love project as all the videos I have found on this channel seem to be.
I may have missed it, but Rose answering, "I'm American," hit me much differently in ways I didn't see touched upon in this discussion. Firstly, the implication that someone who is a particular ethnicity (i.e., not obviously of northern European decent) cannot also be American is blatantly confronted. I didn't feel that Rose was discarding her Chinese heritage so much as defending her status as an American, which she has the right to do whether her background would have been Chinese or Vietnamese. Secondly, if she had corrected the microaggression by staying, "I'm Chinese," it might have-in the context of the above-implied that Chinese Americans should be more acceptable than Vietnamese Americans to the person she was speaking to. Of course, the reality is that all Asians are Other to such a person.
Fantastic work, Terrence! Thanks once again for having me on! ❤🩷
I'd love to see you cover the impact of early 2000 movies like Better Luck Tomorrow that tried to break the Asian American model citizen mold and how it slots into the different trends and themes in Hollywood.
such a well-crafted video! i loved all the perspectives included through the interviews.
I am Peruvian of some Japanese descent that emigrated here at 7. It’s super common in Peru.
I didn’t think my “Asianess” was odd or weird until I got here. My mixture overall was very emphasized here.