About the street names thing, we'll still retain street names and maps in routing apps that use street names, because we'll still be walking and getting about in other ways even when we have self-driving cars.
He makes a big case - without properly naming it - of the "commoditization" of knowledge sources and he is right insofar as knowledge becomes "embedded" in just about every appliance we will use... but he forgets that this particular form of knowledge (practical knowledge) is very different from the way knowledge is used in an analytical way, for academic, cultural and administrative purposes. Commodity, factual knowledge is merely the taxonomy of knowledge objects and it is thin in epistemology (knowledge of itself). This outlook makes sense for the vendor (be it open source) of an API, but it's not true for the rest of use cases. The dictionary inside Word is not encyclopedic ; nor is your spell-checker and nor are even Alexa and Siri. They only skim the "fire and forget" layer of practical facts. Machine Learning and will not make a significant change to this differentiation, because ML is not reflexive or analytical : It merely classifies facts in one of more forms of taxonomic proximity. Maps are not different : There is the practical map that is used for transport - but there are infinite layers to maps that represent other dimensions of interest, and this is where the real metaverse actually happens. Automation and Teslas do not roam these layers.
This reminds me of a short story that Isaac Asimov wrote in the 1940s. It's set in the future when computers rule the world. Some functionary is sitting idly at his desk and writes down the number 7 and under that draws a 3. Under that he writes 21 and thinks, "that looks familiar", goes to the computer and keys in 7 x 3 and it returns 21. He does some other operations on paper and they're all confimed by the computer. He goes to his boss and says, "I figured out how the computer works." Soon the military gets a hold of the guy and has him training mathematicians so that they car can disarm the enemy's computers and move in. Indeed, we've long lost the ability to do math. Since the 1990s the ability to write has been sorely compromised. Reverting to tweets, texts and comments on You Tube videos, all buttressed by spell check, means that most people under 40 write more poorly than grade school graduates a few generations ago. This, by the way, is no exaggeration. I recently read some of the notes and letters of the Wright Brothers from 120 years ago. They were only high school graduates yet were able to articulate perfectly the nuances of the science, engineering, and business behind aircraft. Indeed, it's the biggest complaint of companies hiring college grads--they can't write. Both writing and math are not simply skills. They are languages that wire our brains in particular ways. They are muscles which can be either strengthened or left to atrophy. So now we will do the same with spatial knowledge. Maps are far, far more than mere spatial tools. They are a mechanism for providing context in two, and sometimes three dimensions. GPS is efficient for getting from A to B, but unlike a paper map it provides no context, no richness about your environment. Maps, words, numbers are not merely means of communication but they are art, science and a perspective on the world that can be molded uniquely by and for each individual. Technology improves the human condition if it ADDS to the experience and utility of numbers, words, and maps, but not if takes us away from their beauty. Tech has already made the younger generations the most alienated people ever. The dystopian vision of people like Coats is taking us further down that tortured path. Happily, when my self-driving intercity car (which is always 'just around the corner') breaks down I'll happily be on my way with a trusty paper map which the acolytes of people like Coats will no longer be able to read. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."
I love OSM, but so many parts of this were hard to listen to. He sounds like a guy who gets all of his information from Joe Rogan podcasts. That last point about carbohydrates is so wrong. A simple google search will reveal that humans (and our ancestors) have been eating carbs for at least 600,000 years. This is supported by many lines of evidence. I’m a biologist, so that point really stood out to me.
It gets really annoying when self-driving car shills refuse to realize that they're just advocating for shitter, more dangerous trains. Steve had a few interesting points, but otherwise was just... really egotistical and made some stupid takes.
Yes, also would have thought that the initial brain behind osm is less egotistical like this.. Disillusional to hear how far he is off the hook. I disagree on so many points.. His assumption to them shows that he live in a different world than me where not only tech horny people are around. Also he sounds like a Musk fanboy (with his investment and betting thoughts, seems like he managed to pull some good money out of osm and held some shiny speeches.)
I don"t know why this popped up in my feed, but I'm glad it did. It"s refreshing to hear his perspective.
Glad the TH-cam Gods decided to recommend this!
About the street names thing, we'll still retain street names and maps in routing apps that use street names, because we'll still be walking and getting about in other ways even when we have self-driving cars.
That was a really great conversation! Steve has quite a unique perspective, always great to discover an original thinker
Thanks David!
2:10:28 openstreetmap api has json variants of most (all?) calls. Just add ".json" to a path before "?" parameters.
I discovered OSM a few weeks back, and yeah, it’s basically my new hobby at this point, if I go places.
He makes a big case - without properly naming it - of the "commoditization" of knowledge sources and he is right insofar as knowledge becomes "embedded" in just about every appliance we will use... but he forgets that this particular form of knowledge (practical knowledge) is very different from the way knowledge is used in an analytical way, for academic, cultural and administrative purposes. Commodity, factual knowledge is merely the taxonomy of knowledge objects and it is thin in epistemology (knowledge of itself). This outlook makes sense for the vendor (be it open source) of an API, but it's not true for the rest of use cases. The dictionary inside Word is not encyclopedic ; nor is your spell-checker and nor are even Alexa and Siri. They only skim the "fire and forget" layer of practical facts. Machine Learning and will not make a significant change to this differentiation, because ML is not reflexive or analytical : It merely classifies facts in one of more forms of taxonomic proximity. Maps are not different : There is the practical map that is used for transport - but there are infinite layers to maps that represent other dimensions of interest, and this is where the real metaverse actually happens. Automation and Teslas do not roam these layers.
This is one of the most beautiful talk i ever heard ❤️
A very thoughtful interview. Well done.
I love maps I wish I could nerd out with dudes like this in real life.
I'm grateful I got to hang out with Steve -and many other people- through this podcast!
I hope this conversation helps scratch some of that itch!
This reminds me of a short story that Isaac Asimov wrote in the 1940s. It's set in the future when computers rule the world. Some functionary is sitting idly at his desk and writes down the number 7 and under that draws a 3. Under that he writes 21 and thinks, "that looks familiar", goes to the computer and keys in 7 x 3 and it returns 21. He does some other operations on paper and they're all confimed by the computer.
He goes to his boss and says, "I figured out how the computer works." Soon the military gets a hold of the guy and has him training mathematicians so that they car can disarm the enemy's computers and move in.
Indeed, we've long lost the ability to do math. Since the 1990s the ability to write has been sorely compromised. Reverting to tweets, texts and comments on You Tube videos, all buttressed by spell check, means that most people under 40 write more poorly than grade school graduates a few generations ago. This, by the way, is no exaggeration. I recently read some of the notes and letters of the Wright Brothers from 120 years ago. They were only high school graduates yet were able to articulate perfectly the nuances of the science, engineering, and business behind aircraft.
Indeed, it's the biggest complaint of companies hiring college grads--they can't write. Both writing and math are not simply skills. They are languages that wire our brains in particular ways. They are muscles which can be either strengthened or left to atrophy. So now we will do the same with spatial knowledge. Maps are far, far more than mere spatial tools. They are a mechanism for providing context in two, and sometimes three dimensions. GPS is efficient for getting from A to B, but unlike a paper map it provides no context, no richness about your environment. Maps, words, numbers are not merely means of communication but they are art, science and a perspective on the world that can be molded uniquely by and for each individual. Technology improves the human condition if it ADDS to the experience and utility of numbers, words, and maps, but not if takes us away from their beauty. Tech has already made the younger generations the most alienated people ever. The dystopian vision of people like Coats is taking us further down that tortured path. Happily, when my self-driving intercity car (which is always 'just around the corner') breaks down I'll happily be on my way with a trusty paper map which the acolytes of people like Coats will no longer be able to read. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."
Do you know the name of that short story?
I'd be curious to give that a read!
Tl;dr
I love OSM, but so many parts of this were hard to listen to. He sounds like a guy who gets all of his information from Joe Rogan podcasts. That last point about carbohydrates is so wrong. A simple google search will reveal that humans (and our ancestors) have been eating carbs for at least 600,000 years. This is supported by many lines of evidence. I’m a biologist, so that point really stood out to me.
Fascinating interview. Surprised it doesn't have more views.
Glad you liked it!
I hope this interview will stay relevant for years to come and eventually reach more people!
One of the most insightful interviews have ever watched. Well done!
Great talk. I think I would be good friends with a guy like this.
Really great conversation! Thought I would watch it for just a few minutes but was hooked the entire time. Awesome work.
That is one of the best compliments you could be giving me! Glad you enjoyed it!
Well done !
Thanks!
56:39 "IRC is like Slack but no history and no pictures"
Had to go look it up, as is obvious by the conversation I had no idea what that was!
It gets really annoying when self-driving car shills refuse to realize that they're just advocating for shitter, more dangerous trains. Steve had a few interesting points, but otherwise was just... really egotistical and made some stupid takes.
Yes, also would have thought that the initial brain behind osm is less egotistical like this.. Disillusional to hear how far he is off the hook.
I disagree on so many points.. His assumption to them shows that he live in a different world than me where not only tech horny people are around.
Also he sounds like a Musk fanboy (with his investment and betting thoughts, seems like he managed to pull some good money out of osm and held some shiny speeches.)
At about 1:35:00 he lies bigtime by omission. Theses dude's that are up in NG911 use address points first.
2:53:15 yes, bread is literally awful for you.
Again, as a Frenchman I can't take that ;)
@@mindsbehindmaps Young people can get away with eating garbage food for decades.
You meant American bread
@@svken No, carbs are literally awful for you. Bread is made from carbs.