I think a new Sonic would've definitely helped the Saturn's success. Starting that generation without their mascot made Sega look like they didn't know what they were doing.
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 And looking at the chart at 15:20, it looks like the Gamecube was (at least until that point) the worst-selling major Nintendo console. I had the N64, but not a Gamecube, and when I looked at Super Mario Sunshine, I didn't find it all that impressive, as it changed the mechanics to be too "shooting water"-based... But at least that did come out within a year of the Gamecube's release...
The problem is a garbage Sonic game would have made them look like they didn't know what they were doing and sunk the system too. Imagine how much worse a 3D Sonic game would have been several years earlier and on Saturn hardware then the already terrible Sonic Adventure on Dreamcast. It's the fuel of nightmares!
debatable, sorry to say. Sony was taking up all the new players' attention with their bargain basement prices and huge abundance of games, SEGA wasnt going to grow anymore than Nintendo did during the 64 era, it would've likely satisfied their fans, but like Nintendo, would've stagnated amidst Sony's dominance.
@@UltimateGamerCC The Saturn was chopped off at the knees when it was finding its momentum. No, I am not saying it was ever going to surpass the PSX(PS1) but it could have continued to bring in $$ when Sega truly needed it. Japan kept supporting the Saturn for several years more, even into the short life of the Dreamcast. One or two more years in the western market would have been enough to delay the Dreamcast a year or so as well. The DC could have then incorporated a DVD drive which would have given consumers an extra reason to buy it. (Sony used this tactic with the PS2 and PS3). The damage that guy did by stating 'Saturn was not their future' (among other things) was staggering: - That decision left some developers pissed off, having to outright cancel projects or move/adapt them to other platforms -it put (more)doubt in the minds of consumers who had just seen Sega put out a 32X that was quickly abandoned Other decisions kept many Japanese titles from coming over, X-MEN vs Streetfighter, Darkstalkers 3/Vampire Saviour, Cyberbots, Golden Axe the Duel, Gale Racer/Rad Mobile, Power Drift were a few of the games that never made it to the U.S. The purchase of Visual Concepts (makers of the 2K series of sports games) soured Sega's relationship with EA who kept their games off the Dreamcast (EA wanted exclusive rights to sports titles on the console). This was on top of the Saturn era blunder of the early U.S. release which pissed off a bunch of retailers that were not in on the launch. Some never carried Sega products again.
@@lazarushernandez5827 eh, even with a built in DVD Player, that wouldnt have changed much. i mean, let's be real here, the PS2 had SOOOO much more going for it than just a DVD Player. it had Backwards Compatibility for PS1, a new generation of fans to profit off of, and the library of games was just as huge as the PS1. the DVD Player was just the icing on the cake. i love SEGA, but they were just simply doomed to fail, especially with the internal strife going on. and let me tell you, for a while there, it looked like Nintendo was next to fall, somehow they managed to survive and with the Switch, they are really hitting it off.
@@lazarushernandez5827 Those Japanese titles wouldn't save Saturn in the US. Hell, publishing them would probably be just a waste of money. 3D was the name of the game, which none of those games were. Yeah, NOW they are recognized as classics, but back then a 2D game would just be seen as yesterday's porridge. Saturn needed flashy 3D games and those were quite rare. "That guy" just stated what everyone else already knew.
If Sega had released a Sonic 2.5D game for Christmas 95 it would probably have been well received. Bear in mind that we didn’t see open 3D platforming until 96 with Tomb Raider and Mario 64. Crash Bandicoot also raised the bar for graphics if not gameplay. 95 was Sega’s best opportunity to capitalise on Sonic’s popularity on the Mega Drive. Sonic Team had seemingly done everything they wanted to do with 2D Sonic and were focusing on Nights. The obvious alternative would have been SoA putting its resources into its own Sonic game given how crucial he was to the success of the Genesis in North America. Couldn’t have been a bigger flop than the 32x.
I’m well aware of this, but since everything 3D was all the rage they foolishly thought 2.5D was old hat and wouldn’t sell systems. Bad move on Sega’s part. Probably the reason why the late asshole ceo of Sega of America Bernie Stoller said “the Saturn is not our future” amongst other stupid decisions.
It didn't need to be 2.5, it didn't need to be Sonic, in the long run, the PS1 won not because it relied on mascots, I still remember my friends who got the N64 selling the console to get the PS in 1997-1998, and many kids sending letters to Magazines asking if the N64 was truly more powerful than the PS, this is because Sony's machine ended up getting games that appealed to the masses more than anything, in each genre it has something for everybody. True, what you say would work a bit and the console would sell at that time with something even akin to Sonic Mania, but what would happen later, those kids would have grown up a bit and if they wanted to play Metal Gear, Gran Turismo, Final Fantasy, Tomb Raider 2, Resident Evil 2 and more would probably ditch the Saturn. SEGA ditched the Saturn way too early, even Nintendo which was third place and had virtually no presence in Japan managed to become second selling over 30+ million consoles, because they truly supported the buyers up to 2001 and managed to release a few hits here and there, had SEGA insisted up to the same year, releasing good games, they'd still be second place and the N64 would have been third. Not too glorious, but not too bad, either.
Even with a 3D Sonic game the Saturn would have been absolutely crushed by the N64 the moment people played Mario 64. Sega lacked the talent and R&D necessary to pull off a Sonic game comparable to it. Hell! They still lack the talent to pull off a Sonic game as good with today's technology.
@@themeangene I agree that the PS was elegant for the time, bar its less than ideal RAM amount, but let's not forget the PS3 was demonized by many developers, including Sony's own, stating it was hell to make the console display a single pixel from the ground up on the machine, but it's rocky early years wasn't enough to bring it down and it succeeded in the long run, delivering impressive games as developers learned to deal with the console. Two reasons, Sony didn't jump ship and it had many exclusives and its two prior systems were behemoths ensuring its fan base. SEGA would have become second in the 32-bit generation, had they insisted on the machine, this is why the N64 sold 30+ million consoles, because there was less competition from 1997 onwards. With that, Saturn's architecture isn't that far behind in complexity as the PS3, from a developer's perspective, so it's also safe to say the machine didn't reach its full potential. I really love the PS1, but those who enjoyed the Saturn in its time, know how amazing a machine it is.
Your summary pretty much nailed it, IMO. Saturn was THE system for me as a high school senior in 1996, but I often wonder what might have been. Sega of America should have been jamming after the Genesis, but it just didn't go down that way. To me, the biggest letdown was the following: I was a major Sega arcade fan. I was primed for home released of Virtua Fighter and Daytona. When then Saturn appeared in 1995, they just looked SO BAD. I am a firm believer that a new system has to "wow" the new adopters; typically with radically better graphics and/or novel gameplay. And this sadly just wasn't the case here.
Sonic X-Treme. A game that went to development hell, lots of things happened during it, ended up being cancelled. The whole story is completely insane. At this point, Sega was at war against themselfs (Sega of America vs. Sega of Japan).
Finally someone said what I thought for a long time: None of the ideas around Sonic X-Treme were good, and if radical changes were not made in the sense of starting the game from 0, the game would be horrible and have a chance to doom the whole franchise Sega should at the launch of the Saturn have ported Sonic CD to alleviate the demand for a Sonic game, with polygonal bonus stages.
I really don't think it'd have taken Sega long to enhance Sonic CD suitably for a Saturn release, maybe call it Sonic CDS or something. A lot of people didn't see Sonic CD so an enhanced port likely wouldn't have been seen as a cynical cash grab. I imagine the soundtrack differences would have needed to be retained but that's a minor point.
A part of me wonders why wasn't Traveller's Tales hired to make an alternative if "Sonic X-Treme" couldn't make it? They've proven to be especially talented programmers and designers for their Mega Drive games, so that, mixed with input from Sonic Team, could have delivered something the Saturn needed.
@@dapperfan44 Not really, even though it is the only original Sonic game on the machine. Sega thought "Hey, we want you to make a 16-bit Sonic game", even though Traveller's Tales was ready to move on to new hardware. Had they been asked right away to make a 32-bit Sonic game, it would have been more creatively and financially sensible.
"The ramblings of someone looking to blame someone else for their failure" sounds like some X-treme projection on Yuji Naka's part given his usual behavior
It wouldn't save the Saturn. What could have saved not only the console, but the company as a whole happened before the launch of the 32-bit console. By not releasing addons in the 16-bit era, focusing on their next generation from as early as January 1993 planning on launching the Saturn with 20 to 30 titles, delivering proper development tools to third parties, ensuring they will earn more, by reducing costs from licensing and making exclusivity deals with them. Also, the Saturn has a decent library for Sonic fans, I myself played Sonic Jam and specially Sonic R for many years as a kid, Sonic R's main issue is that it features only 5 courses, where it could well have 20. The Genesis should have been supported up to late '97 as well, just like the SNES did, but they were too busy with their internal problems to make that really happen. True the Genesis received sports titles up to that point, but with 30 million users, you want to extend its life a little more. With more SVP chip games, like DOOM and even a CPS2 arcade port like the SNES got, the Mega Drive would have sold more software than either the Sega CD or 32X. Speaking of which, what could have made a huge impact on the Saturn, though, had SEGA ensured the 32-bit console was backwards compatible with Mega Drive/Genesis cartridges via an adapter, and obviously the Sega CD, and since they had the 32X, why not make it compatible as well, the Saturn has a X68000 variant and both SH-2 CPUs like the 32X, with the cartridge slot and 30+ million install base to migrate? Why haven't they considered this? People were still enjoying the 16-bit Sonic games, among hundreds of varied carts on the Genesis and almost no one played Chaotix, the Saturn would have launched with over 800 titles with this.
Looking back is easy to see the problems and issues and also what they should have done, it isn't always obvious at the time. Many of the Sega's decisions during the 90s can be seen as reactionary: -Sega CD, reaction to the PC Engine CD Rom attachment which came out in 88. As Sega was developing it, Nintendo had shown mode 7 games for the upcoming Super Famicom (1990), Sega added scaling and rotation abilities (including sprites) to the Mega CD which launched Dec 91. They end up not releasing many games that took advantage of that feature, instead those FMV games are plentiful. -the 32X was not only a reaction to the Atari Jaguar, it was also a solution to the SVP chip situation. At the time, Virtua Racing the only SVP chipped game released was $100. The argument could be made that as more games were made with those SVP chips the price of those games should drop. The 32X cost $150. 2 SVP titles would have paid off a 32X, which had better polygon handling, scaling abilities and a larger color palette than SVP chip produced. It's games were much improved over base Genesis ones while only being $10 more. It seemed like an ideal solution but it actually(further) split the user base. A better idea would have been to release a Super/Ultra/Mega Genesis as a backwards compatible 32 bit console, have it be compatible with a future Saturn by the addition of its own CD Rom drive. Or never have gone down that road in the first place.
Yes, it's surely easy to see things in retrospect, you do suggest some interesting solutions. Things to note though, are quotes from those who were managing things, if you watched recent podcasts/interviews with Tom Kalinske, for instance, he states a few aspects I mentioned in the original comment, and how dumb of a decision SEGA made by denying SONY's partnership in the upcoming 5th generation, he couldn't believe they refused that offer. As for SVP chips, sure, they wouldn't be as powerful as the 32X, but that also means they wouldn't need to confuse consumers with with addons and mostly, even DOOM was rushed to a point a proper SVP port could have become a better outcome, all things considered, specially since we're talking about millions of base Genesis owners. I first experienced DOOM on the SNES and there was nothing quite like it for the console, millions share this experience, they first-handed played this top-tier game in a 16-bit console. Still, about the 32X games, in case you're familiar with games that both the 16-bit cartridge and 32X share in common, WWF: Arcade Game runs at 60FPS where the 32X runs at 30, it surely looks much better, but in terms of gameplay, the base console is the better experience, same goes for Pitfall: Mayan Adventure and many others. The way the 32X is integrated doesn't exactly mean it will destroy the base console, because it still depends on the console for resources that sometimes won't blend nicely with the addon. I do appreciate Virtua Fighter and even Chaotix, but as a business, they should have moved the 3D title to either a SVP cart, costumers would be willing to pay more for a current 3D arcade game on an aging hardware, and Chaotix would be a good one that was also rushed, but this time, properly developed for the Saturn, or the Genesis itself in 1996 or so.
@@roberto1519 Yep. I am aware of all of that. The 32X was a rushed product as I'm sure you know. Sega of Japan was worried about the Atari Jaguar stealing market share before the Saturn was launched. The 32X went from concept to production in less than a year. A more thought out standalone 32x or better yet a cartridge based Saturn/Neptune that had backwards compatibility (either built in or adapter) would have been a better alternative. The native 32 bit cartridges wouldn't have to run through the 16 bit hardware (causing the issues mentioned). That console (Neptune) could be offered for less money, and augmented with a CD drive at a later time. Maybe they did on another timeline... Kalinske also mentioned that Sega of Japan pretty much shot down the use of the hardware that became the N64. That is an entirely different what if. With the SVP chip situation Sega would definitely have had to manage the cost issue, It was pretty well known that Nintendo's Super FX chips were not increasing the price of those games by the same margins. I don't know how long Sega of Japan would gone with that though, they finished 3rd in the 16 bit gen in Japan and wanted to move on.
I agree, true about the Silicon Graphics story as well, Kaliske did mention that, too. I still think SEGA should never considered the other consoles as threats, but they indeed did, Jaguar, 3DO, PS1, and even the Neptune concept wasn't a good idea, either. That's why I mentioned the SVP stuff, to extend a bit more the life of the base Genesis. Had SEGA focused entirely on the Saturn properly, pretty much what they did with the Dreamcast later, but that was too late, meaning, they released the Dreamcast with many good quality titles, the Saturn didn't have that and it really hurt the console in the west. The PS1 was losing to the Saturn in Japan for quite a while, a big IF, Square had also launched its games on the Saturn, we would be talking a very different conversation now. SEGA should totally have made deals with more third parties from the 16-bit era onwards.
@@roberto1519 I would say that they did focus on Saturn, they just did so in Japan. They supported the Saturn well into the life of the Dreamcast. They ignored the situation in western markets. The Genesis was doing well in western markets in the early 90s and could have continued to bring funds in if they had handled it correctly (unironically it outlive both of its add-ons). They also ignored the threat of Sony, Sony back in the 90s had money to throw at solutions. Sure that may have been esteemed as beginners to the gaming market back then, but they were giants in other markets: TVs, broadcast equipment, audio equipment, CDs, music and entertainment, etc. Sony also spent a lot on marketing. They likely threw a lot of money to various third parties. A lot of third parties were also getting sick of Nintendo's way. Nintendo tended to be the ones you dealt with in regards to the manufacturing of the cartridges, they were also the publishers/distributors. they took a large cut of the price of the game and controlled the production, they also scheduled the release of the games on their consoles with first party titles often getting better exposure. With Sony, CD media was far less expensive, the developers had a better cut of the price, and CDs could be reproduced much quicker than cartridges, meaning if a game was a hit, they could respond an have more product in the stores quicker. It was literally the perfect storm of events for Sony.
I finally purchased a Sega Saturn last year and as of now I own 14 games for the console including Sonic Jam, Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R. I wish Sega of Japan and America could of came to an agreement with making a Truly 3D Sonic The Hedgehog game for the Saturn.
You should get an ODE. I got a Saturn 6 months ago and have already played all 3 scenarios of Shining Force 3, hours of Galactic Attack and Gaurdian Heroes, and now am playing through Panzer Dragoon Saga. It really has been so worth the really simple mod
I'm not sure the Saturn could have done something to the epic scale like in Mario 64, it's world's were gargantuan for its era, but Sonic Team could have copied Crash Bandicoot and focused in on creating narrow, bendy, detailed levels, to keep the draw distance down and framerate up.
I remember at the time, reading my Sega Saturn Magazine...Naka said several times he didn't wanted to make Sonic because he wanted a new mascot. He thought he was capable to do it again. Arrogance killed Sega...😢
Can you imagine what would have happened to the Xbox 360 had Microsoft not released a mainline Halo entry for that generation? Not only was that Sega's biggest mistake on a very long list, but it was one of the worst ever in all video game history.
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 Alex Kidd was a failed attempt at an iconic mascot. It would've been be folly to keep him featured as a main attraction. Sonic was the real thing.
I can't blame a creator for wanting to experiment and not just be stuck in one path forever, and on the one hand it IS kinda cool corporate allowed him to experiment... but in hindsight him thinking Nights could be a new Sonic really does boggle the mind.
Creative types often want to move on to create the next thing, instead of being stuck on working on the same series. For example, Bungie left Microsoft because they no longer wanted to work on Halo. I think making Nights was a good move and it was a wonderful, truly innovative addition to the Saturn library. However, Sega could've hired some other japanese developer to make a 2,5D Sonic for the Saturn.
If Sega had decided that the 32X was just not going to work, and had pushed all those projects to the Saturn for its launch, Knuckles Chaotix could have been reworked as a Saturn launch title. Sure its not a true Sonic mainline title, but it would have tied people over with its lush 2D graphics and new mechanics. Sega could have said this was the appetizer for the main course and then gone full tilt on the Sonic Worlds prototype to be a full game later on.
I think one of the under-rated aspects of Sonic to appear on the Saturn was Mark Cerny leaving Sega. He was one of the few people who was fluent in Japanese and English and understood both cultures as he worked in game development in Japan and the US. Hes basically the reason why Sony's first party studios are as strong as they are.
@user-rd6zt2hi7r Mark Cerny convinced Yuji Naka to join Sega of America after he quit Sega of Japan after the release of the first Sonic game. Since Mark was fluent in both languages and spent a few years living in Japan (and marrying a Japanese wife) he knew how to bridge between the two cultures. When Mark left Sega after Sonic 2, STI broke apart with the Japanese devs working separately from the Americans, eventually going back to Japan after Sonic & Knuckles. If Mark stayed at Sega he may have been able to convince SoJ, the importance of Sonic to Americans and actually got a good dev team to work on it. It's still baffling that Sonic X-Treme was being made by a small team with little experience. Since in Japan, Sonic wasn't that big and it was Sega's AM2 arcade hits that was pushing sales of the Saturn. He may also have been able to convince SoJ to give devkits and prototypes to SoA early. SOA didn't receive devkits until the same time as Japanese 3rd parties in mid 1994. But mostly importantly he could have organized the SoA dev teams better. After the Japanese left, STI was a complete mess. Cerny always had a knack (pun intended) for finding talent. It's why Sony 1st party devs are so good. He saw how good the talent at Naughty Dog and Insomniac were and somehow convinced Sony to throw a lot money at them even though they were inexperienced devs at that time. He may have been able to the same with SoA if he stayed, since other than Visual Concepts, Sega's American division was bad at making games during the Saturn and Dreamcast era.
I think Sega of Japan never did realise that Sonic was basically the foundation of their empire. The Genesis wasn’t really anywhere before 1991, it was another also-ran like the TurboGrafix Sonic lifted that console into the stratosphere and was the app that gave the console a foundation for a lot of other killer titles: Eternal Captions, Ecco the Dolphin, the sports franchises, and so on. The fact that the Saturn not only neglected Sonic, but also all their other A list titles, shows how out of touch with reality Sega of Japan was. The Saturn may have been a neat console, but it was a console that was really never meant for the American or European market - it was a console by and for Japan. The absence of any triple A American market titles, any great sports titles alongside the deluge of arcade ports popular in Japan and quirky games like Nignts that appealed more to a Japanese aesthetic and mindset shows this.
Why would they think so?Sega was an arcade developer first and foremost. It was Out Run,After Burner and later Daytona Usa and Virtua Fighter that definied Sega.
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526I dunno, I think they should think so because Sonic was a success that far exceeded any of the titles you mentioned, making them more money (even if just through merchandising / licensing etc) and getting more recognition. I do not mean to disparage Daytona USA, or the hard work behind the earily pixels of Virtua Fighter or the ground being broken in After Burner and those early arcade games. But the acclaim those games earned and the mainstream breakthrough Sonic earned weren't in the same ballpark, and I don't think it's unreasonable to recognize that.
@@goranisacson2502 Not really. Sonic 2 saw half the sales of 1, and 3 even less than that. Sega of America also weren't as successful during the Genesis as we think, since they had to buy back TONS of unsold stock from retailers after the holidays.
@@samalton5837 I did mention licensing as Sonic had a comic, several cartoons and I think that in terms of sales numbers the Sonic games 1 to 3 still outsold Virtua Fighters 1-2 (which I feel are the relevant games to discuss here considering the theme was "importance to SEGA in terms of impact at the time of the Saturn"), so I think Sonic as a franchise with all surrounding merchandise did far more for SEGA's wallet than VF and Daytona did, but I admit I had no idea about that whole buy-back thing so I may be going on incomplete assumptions here- what's that all about?
@bowman3530 il y a 0 seconde No one I knew cared about any of the games you mentioned. Not sure on sales, but word of mouth at least, Sonic was god compared to Racing Game X. Sonic continues to thrive, including multiple films, decades after its release. Having no Sonic game was a disaster.
What it really needed was an AM2 perfect port of Sonic the Fighters. Think about it, people went crazy for fighting games and rave music at the time, something Sonic the Fighters had in spades. Fighting craze+Sonic craze+rave music=mondo big bucks for the folks at Sega! I'm alianger, thanks for reading and have a great rest of your day.
Yes, definitely. Sonic sold consoles back then. It was HOT. Not having a new Sonic game taking advantage of the neat hardware of the Saturn at the time at launch was plain suicide Sonic jam doesn't count since it is just (in official terms) a hub to access games that already appeared on the Genesis
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526because those games leading up to 1995 were the same side-scrolling games again & again. A 3D Sonic game would have been a hot seller because it was new, and would have peaked people’s interest in how powerful the Saturn really was.
I'm disappointed in no mention of the Sonic into Dreams unlockable from the Christmas NiGHTs release. That was probably the greatest taste of Sonic on the Saturn.
Given how Sonic Adventure helped the Dreamcast launch, I have no doubt in my mind that Sonic having a big exclusive Saturn game would have sold way more units.
Yeah 1995 was almost certainly too early to try a 3d sonic. Most devs had no idea how to make slower more traditional platform mascots work in 3d, on consoles that were easier to program that stuff for
Great video and i agree. The more we analyze, the more we realize Sega had too many problems that would have most likely doomed the Saturn and eventually the company. Saturn itself needed to be geared more towards 3D in order to position itself better against both Sony and Nintendo. A Sonic game, even a 2.5D one would have done a lot to help but the way Sega was being ran and managed at the time? They needed both Japan and American branches making good and sound decisions and working together in order to have a chance to survive.
It would've helped for sure, especially bringing in younger gamers but their was no stopping PlayStation in the 90s they did everything they could to succeed.
Croc proved that the Saturn was definitely capable of doing full 3D adventure games with ease. It's a shame that Sega couldn't get any Sonic games up to the level of Croc on the Saturn. I actually liked Bug and its sequel, Bug Too. I had fun running around in that quirky little world, and the pseudo-3D felt pretty epic at times. Not sure how well they sold, but I thought they were pretty solid for when they came out.
It could do them, problem is that developing 3D games for it was significantly harder than it was for the Playstation and that the hardware wasn't as capable for 3D as it either.
@@magicjohnson3121 the point isn’t whether or not Croc was a good game. The point is that Croc showed the Saturn could handle a 3D platformer without a significant downgrade in Performance from the PlayStation.
@@EOTA564I think the effort that they had to put into the port in order to make it run so well made it untenable for publishers to release them on the Saturn though
Those fisheye scenes do look kind of cool for a moment, and I say that as a steadfast hater of fisheye, but I really don't think I could have stomached an _entire game_ like that. The boss area footage seemed neat, though, surprised it didn't wind up someplace else.
1998, they were down to 1% market share. Bernie "Saturn is not our future" would not localiize those Japanese 2.5D games and jRPGs... right when jRPGs had gone nuclear.
If a semi-decent Sonic on the Saturn released before the end of '97, it probably would have shifted a couple more million Saturns and given SEGA some time to breath and developed the Dreamcast to be more competitive against at least the PS2 specs wise.
A Sonic 4 in 2D, a Sonic Adventure in 3D, a good Shinobi sequel, Streets Of Rage 4, Golden Axe 4, an arcade perfect Thunderblade, a Sega Rally with more cars & tracks and so much more.
This might be a weird thought but I think it would have helped Nights into dreams a bit too. It’s a high concept kind of game and I think the more familiar sonic would have had people be more open to it.
Absolutely. I didn't care for the look of NiGHTS, but I think I would have been more open to trying a new/different Sonic Team game had I already had a Sonic title.
I don't know why they didn't just port SegaSonic the Hedgehog from the Arcade? There was a Sonic game that was beyond the 16-bit machines right there that could have been a launch title or alternative pack-in.
Well, for one they probably didn't want to have a 2D game as Sonic's debut on the Saturn. It's also controlled with a trackball and the entire challenge of the game is based around that, so it wouldn't really make sense on a regular controller.
Great video and a very fun hyptothesis. Since the SOA document leak, we have even more reasons to see how Sega declined so rapidly, with Sonic being just another one of those problems, even if it was ultimately an avoidable one. Self-inflicted wounds everywhere, if you will.
An actual Saturn sonic exclusive would have been a massive publicity boost for the console on of itself. Sonic R, Sonic jam, and a sonic nights into dreams skin were like a tease of what could be. Had a 32X and loved the graphical style of Chaotix, a glow up on sonic CD, but the whole "tether" thing really put me off😢.
The Saturn was designed (by the Japanese) to be a home version of many arcade boxes. The Saturn's most important function was fast pixels; unfortunately. However the market for polygon supremacy was greater than smooth pixels. Sega of America went along with this overall (what choice did they really have) and made the best they could out of it
@@PhilBaxter Sega's arcade and home console divisions were separate entities. It was the home console guys - who had success with the Genesis and experience in making 2D games - that were pushing for the Saturn to have an emphasis on 2D capabilities.
Yet still Saturn had theoretical maximum polygon output higher than the Playstation. It was just much more complex hardware. A mistake Sony would then proceed to make with the PS3
@@PhilBaxter Yeah I agree, the PS2 & 3 are kinda not that great. I personally blame the PS2 for starting the “bland era” of gaming. Also, I would know about the PS1, I have one across the room from me right now. The Saturn kinda sucked back in the day, but aged quite nicely in my opinion. Everyone was on the 3D hype train back in the day, so any thing that was 2D was “old news” and “not appealing”. As the years went on though, that “3D > 2D” thing kinda died, so we can take a look back and see if we missed any amazing 2D linear gems that were unfairly pitted against 3D open blockbuster titles the N64 & PS1 had, like Super Mario 64, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Final Fantasy 7 & Metal Gear Solid. Most of the 3D games on the Saturn were on-rail shooters & tournament fighters, and sometimes arcade ports. Those games are not very expansive, and very repetitive, the EXACT opposite of the open & anti-linear designs of the N64 & PS1 hits I mentioned earlier. Those games were hits because not only were they just great games, but also because they followed 1 big trend: 3D “open-world” game locations. They were big adventure games with long stories (excluding SM64) that lasted for hours upon hours, something the Saturn couldn’t handle. The focus on 2D processing power is a blessing now, but a curse then, with the console not being able to handle what people wanted. However, the games on Saturn, though primitive compared to its competitors, are impressive experiences all on their own. Burning Rangers is an interesting little game (though it’s a bit laggy on real hardware), Sonic 3D Blast is an enjoyable Genesis experience made better on Saturn by its graphical enhancements and impeccable soundtrack, & Nights: Into Dreams is a smooth 3D… game (I dunno what genre it belongs to) with an appealing surreal art-style, tight, responsive controls, & graphics that aged like a fine wine. I love the Saturn, but it has many flaws that are hard to overlook when you compare its library to its competitors. By itself though, it’s a charming little piece of hardware that was treated unfairly by those wanting to ride that 3D bandwagon. Oh, and those who wanted a 3D Sonic, but we don’t talk about Sonic Xtreme lol
I'll never forget how much those special 3D stages confused me when I was a kid. I was like wtf, is this the same game? But it was still fun and challenging. Many fond memories despite all of the shortcomings.
I was listening to sega saturn shiro a little while back and they were interviewing the guy who created bug and said that bug was meant to be a sonic game. This was only a couple of mouths ago but I can't remember the reason why it did not happen.
I don't think it was just Sonic that ended up getting ignored but also other IPs that had been big sellers for the Mega Drive/Genesis. Games like Streets of Rage, Shinobi and a new Phantasy Star game could have made the Saturn more appealing to a Western audience.
A Sonic may not have saved it but a Saturn that was backwards compatible with the Genesis/Sega CD/32X and continued development of games for those platforms may have saved it from being considered as big of a failure as current media considers it. Maybe not a huge success, but not a huge failure.
The Sega Saturn had Sonic R (a racing game with 5 courses each with their own unlockable character and their own songs which were sung by a woman called TJ Davis. Also memorable for the Tails Doll meme. The game would be fun if it could be played online nowadays on a modern console) and Sonic Jam (Which allowed Saturn gamers to play Sonic 1, 2, 3 and Sonic & Knuckles) as Sonic games.
As sad as it is, nothing short of changing management in Sega of Japan could have saved the Saturn. The two cultures of America and Japan were so disconnected that it was impossible for it to be saved.
I could do my own video breaking this down.. but TL;DR unlike Nintendo, Sega did not have 1 piece of successful hardware in Japan and the west. It was always the opposite if you look at how popular the master system "in pal regions" and the genesis was everywhere else. The Mark III/Master System, Mega Drive sold very poorly compared the PCE/Famicom and Super Famicom In Japan and barely even had market share during the 8-16 bit in Japan. Now look at the Saturn, it was a massive success in Japan and in the west.. It was over shadowed compared to the ps1, N64 and even the remaining life of the Genesis with it's last bit of releases. This is something else that led to Sega's downfall, aside from their swansong that was the dreamcast they never had one unified piece of hardware that sold successfully.
I really loved Bug!, the way that game works would've really been accommodating to getting Sonic on the Saturn. A game designed like Crash Bandicoot would have also worked for the hardware. Croc proved that a game like that could have worked.
Definitely one of the better “what if” scenarios for SEGA. Imagine if a proper Sonic game came out for the Saturn sometime around 1997 and was a huge hit. You gotta imagine that would have significantly boosted sales of the console, which would have likely pushed the development of the Dreamcast back a bit. That means SEGA may have taken their time with development and actually included a DVD player in the console, which could have lessened the blow Sony dealt them… which means SEGA might very well still be making consoles today. Or maybe it wouldn’t have changed anything at all. Who knows!
I sure would've bought one. I got PSX instead for Tekken 2 & Final Fantasy 7. After the system died my older bro gave me his Saturn with a bunch of Sega exclusives like VF remix, VF 2, Panzer Dragoon 1 & 2, Amok, etc. I didn't care because none of them were a new Sonic, Streets of Rage, Phantasy Star 5, or a proper Golden Axe game.
Yeah I don't have anything for that so who knows. Would it have kept them making consoles or would it still doomed them the same way it did in real life.
A key reason why Nintendo still develops hardware is that Nintendo understood early on that Mario was the foundation of their gaming business. While other franchises like Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, etc have all been important, Nintendo always made it a priority to not only put Mario in spin-offs, but ensure new 3D and 2D mainline entries were always there to help push hardware. The reason why I say this is because I think Sega of Japan simply did not understand that Sonic was the foundation that supported their business. They saw only lackluster Mega Drive and Sonic sales in Japan, and drew the wrong conclusions. Nintendo banked the entire Nintendo 64 launch on Super Mario 64 and the game was worked on by the best talent at Nintendo because they understood the importance of getting their flagship franchise out the door with a game that made a strong impression for the hardware. The fact that Sega failed to make getting a definitive Sonic game that showed off the Saturn hardware their top priority speaks volumes about how dysfunctional Sega was in the late 90s. I disagree on one thing. I think a full fledged Sonic game could have saved the Saturn in the west. While I think there would have been no stopping the PlayStation juggernaut, having a 3D Sonic game alongside localizations of games like Capcom's X-Men vs Street Fighter that could only be done properly on the Saturn would have pushed hardware and given Sega an identity here. Toss in new entries in popular Genesis franchises like Streets of Rage or maybe using their Disney license to create a 3D Mickey Mouse game, and I think the Saturn could have done better in the west. It might have still lagged behind the PlayStation, but it might have been closer to the N64.
I feel like Nights was equivalent to anything Sonic Team would have made, even if it had starred Sonic. They wanted to take the platformer in new directions by making it feel fast like an arcade game. Going up against Mario’s “everything bigger in 3D” approach I think it would have lost the 1996 holiday ho matter what. That being said, as someone who bought Nights, took time to figure it out and still plays it, I think it’s the platformer that fits the Saturn.
I feel like if a 3-D Sonic game using sonic Jam/Sonic R graphic engine could of potential rescued the saturn from total doom if present around the time that Nintendo presented Mario 64. It'd be like sega putting up a middle finger to Nintendo like they did during the genesis days. Then, Nights and Burning rangers afterwards would of been a great tri-fecta showing off the hardware. Sonic should have come first. Then Panzer Dragoon Zwei against star fox 64.... it would of been great in my opinion. They didn't have an answer for Sony (Grandia, Shining series vs the final fantasy sure) as a whole but the could of fought off Nintendo.
I loved the Sega Saturn but I was very disappointed that they didn't manage to put out a decent Sonic title for the Saturn. Another great video thanks for sharing!
I think it's clear that if someone could travel back in time and give some kind of advice to Sega circa 1992 it would be 'Your next console needs to be affordable and backwards compatible' Also, maybe get Sega US to pull their heads in
Maybe using all their money to buy good studios like CORE,Naughty Dog and Lobotomy Software instead of burning money in fmv games and the 32X fiasco. In the alternative timeline even without Sonic they could do what Sony of America did in the PS3 era.
Affordable and backwards combability don't go into the same sentence. There was no upgrade path while being affordable. If they used a 68020 they wouldn't have the performance they need and going to a 68040 would've been far too expensive. And throwing a entire Genesis into a standard Saturn would've made them bleed money.
@@MonsterHunterLancer Maybe, but failing to leverage their installed base of 16 bit machines in some way, was ludicrous given the sheer size of Nintendo, not to mention Sony, both arrayed against them. What would you have them do? I just don't see how Sega could've won or even survived without a major course correction early in the cycle
@@MonsterHunterLancer I don't see why they would select a 68020/030/040 for Genesis compatibility when it uses a 68000. Ironically, a 68000 is one of the chips inside of the Saturn. An Adapter accessing it along with the other chips required by the Genesis (Z80, Yamaha YM2612 if the Saturn's own YMF292 couldn't handle things) on board, would have been a low cost alternative not affecting the Saturn's price.
Yuji Naka knew, but threatened to leave Sega if people within Sega, a company he worked for, continued using a tech for a game that was important for the company's success.
@@CW0123 Fun Fact: Silicon Graphics wanted to team up with Sega to power up the Saturn, but Sega said no. So Silicon Graphics partnered with Nintendo instead, resulting in the N 64. Imagine what would have happed if Sega said yes???
@@mrdeatheliyou're tweaking HARD imo, SA1 is amazing and probably one of the best sonic games behind S3&K. But I guess I can understand your opinion since thoughts on SA1 and SA2 are pretty polarizing nowadays.
They had it.Sonic Adventure as well Shenmue started as a Saturn title. In a bizarre timeline Saturn was a global success and Sonic Adventure was realesed in mid '97 for the system 😂
Thanks to you I got a slick white japanese sega saturn + Sonic R and Sonic Jam (Also an action replay, of course). I also plan on getting more games like Sega Rally and Fighters Megamix. Thank you SO MUCH for sharing your in depth knowledge of this terribly underrated console.
Despite all of Sega's mistakes it's truly miraculous that Sonic Adventure turned out so amazing. What a shame Sega didn't have the funds to develop an add-on to boost the power of the Dreamcast with subsidized pricing to entice buyers. That was the only way they had any hope of surviving the 6th gen wave.
Success for the DC even with an add-on still would've been a long shot no doubt. The correct choice would have been making the DC more powerful from the beginning. The Sega CD wasn't a dire mistake or an outright failure. It was the 32X and Saturn that really hurt Sega. The final nail was making the Dreamcast underpowered. It needed at least another 100mhz and an additional 16mb of RAM to stay relevant against the PS2.
I honestly believe a Sonic game on Saturn would not have made a single difference, instead I offer the dirty fact of what could have made it a success. Virtua Fighter helped SEGA take an early lead in Japan and other east-asian territories, if SEGA included full VCD capabilities in the system from the get go and took a larger production vs sales loss considering the console price, they could have absolutely sown up the entire east-asian market by marketing the Saturn as the ultimate home entertainment system. This was a plan SEGA had, but they relied on extra cost elements such as upgrade components or partners later manufacturing more expensive VCD ready units, which were ignored in favor of much cheaper VCD players. Strangely, if they'd made this decision, it would have also had a 'shadow effect' on unit sales in other markets if SEGA decided to use the pron industry as a means of offering the Saturn as a means for cheap and easily tradable materials. Dad's would have had the option to convince the kids to get a Saturn rather than a rival system, with the appearance of 'they'll have a games machine' while he himself will have a 'pron machine' and single guys would have owned an innocent looking game system that could be used for nastier things. As dirty as this sounds... it would have worked, pron sells and sold really well back then when the internet was still in a fledgling state. Then with the Saturn having a larger market share, 3rd party support would naturally increase and even when/if games looked superior on PS1 and N64, the Saturn version would have been the bigger seller by virtue of more units in more homes. Video CD was the key in 94/95 and SEGA decided to not use it except as a means to gouge more money as an expensive upgrade unit.
That chart @15:20 hurt my heart. The Sega Saturn was my first console and I was one of the only kids (in 3rd grade) that had one. I remember when Playstation took over and even then it was sad that I couldn't convince my friends how awesome the Saturn was. It's weird how the sales numbers explain exactly what was happening, but when I was a kid I had no way of understanding the business side of my beloved video games.
If Sonic Extreme would have been released on the Saturn. I would have owned a SEGA SATURN in my youth. I remember looking inside of a Target store and was very disappointed at the Sega Saturn library. Nothing really caught my eye.
Not having any new Sonic game definitely hurt them, along with the botched launch. But the Saturn's main problem was its library in general. North America and Europe were by far Sega's key markets. Yet Sega chose to focus on arcade ports and 2D shmups. Both of which were quickly falling out of fashion in those regions. Sonic could have brought people to the Saturn, but there wasn't a lot to keep them there. The reality is that PS1 had the better launch lineup, was technically superior, and was $100 cheaper. And the PS1 kept consistently delivering games players wanted over its lifetime. The Saturn didn't. I was a Genesis kid growing up, as were most of my friends, but I didn't know anyone who had a Saturn. I don't even remember it even being on my radar. Not that my parents would have bought 10-yo me a $400 console anyway.
I would have wanted a Sonic game on the Saturn to be based around a hub world, looking like the one from Sonic Jam. With each zone having it's own area that you can travel between, a la Banjo Tooie. Then you'd pick each 'Act' of the level by going through a portal or something like in Crash. I would have varied the gameplay between a 2.5D sidescroller, and a 3D level style kind of like a sped up Crash Bandicoot mixed with Sonic R. Oh and I'd lift the bonus stages straight from 3D Blast, and maybe a bonus stage with Nights gameplay but using Tails instead.
3D platformers were mostly janky until Mario 64 and none of them were built for speed. These games (even Mario 64) chugged along 20-30fps. The speed necessary for Sonic would've been really tough to do.
They should've developed the Neptune in a similar way of the MegaCDx, and sold as a recall to Sega Genesis with a discount price tag, and as a standalone full price console. And delayed the Saturn until the AM2 arcade boards became cheap enough to be put into a console.
I feel like Sega needed a launch like the Dreamcast's, but in 1995. I don't mean the hardware itself, but the unified front and firing on all cylinders. If they had cut off previous generation support and solely focused on the Saturn, it would have fared much better. I think a safe approach for Sonic on the Saturn would be to develop 2 different games simultaneously, one being 2D, and being 3D. Have the 2D game come out first, and be fairly similar to the Genesis outings, but make it feel like an extremely high end 2D game. Then later in the generation release the 3D game after you've gotten a decent software engine running on the Saturn. You could even tease the 3D game's story in the ending of the 2D one. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, so it's easy to speculate from the arm chair. :)
Yeah, I agree. Even with the seven Chaos Emeralds, Sonic wouldn't have been able to save Sega from themselves! I vaguely recall reading an article in a gaming magazine (I think GamePro) way back then all about Sonic X-Treme and it actually had got me interested in the Saturn. I was puzzled when months later, no official release was announced and it quietly disappeared. I now know the truth about its development. I did pick up Sonic 3D Blast on the Genesis, but it just struck a sour note with me as a kid. It is interesting to think what could have been. A 2.5D Sonic that showcased the Saturn's power seems like such a missed opportunity! But, yeah, Sega had bigger and more glaring problems. It was probably best Sonic didn't get involved in management's internal strife!
I like the 2.5D idea. I doubt anyone would've thought of it though but if lock on had been thought of it would've been a cool way of switching quickly between multiple planes. The nights engine would've worked well.
I think the biggest hurdle was actually the 32X, it either needed to be cancelled outright or the Saturn itself delayed for a while, if only so it wouldn't seem like such a cash grab. While cancelling would probably have been the smarter move, delaying the Saturn would have the benefit of letting everyone come to grips with the Saturn's crazy architecture since the 32X was very similar, and Sega launching with better tools and dev knowledge out the gate would have been a huge plus for 3rd party devs plus their own games (let's not forget the shoddy state Virtua Fighter launched in)
Sonic Extreme alone would not have saved the Saturn. Several factors to consider: If the Saturn was released as originally planned, used only one super 32-bit processor for easier programming, maintained the strength of their sports category like they did w/Genesis, released the RAM cartridge games, and maintained a good relationship w/Working designs. Then, Saturn would of lasted longer. Or even better…. Sega of Japan should of agreed to work w/Sony, and let Thomas Kalinske take care of the rest.
I think of Sega had released Sonic 4 and made it 2D with some 3D effects it def could have helped the Saturn live longer in the West. If nothing else, it woukd have shown developers the untapped potential of the Saturn vs PS1 during that era.
They also could've released Sonic CD for Saturn because not many people had a SEGA CD. But no. Sonic 3D Blast had more priority because it had the word "3D" in its title. SEGA was destined to fail just how often they kept making dumb decisions like that.
Using that sonic jam 3d engine and some level design adjustments sonic adventure would have been possible on the saturn (taking advantage of the big planes and using vdp1 polygons sparingly). What a shame we don't get to see it!
This is a good video idea of using a what if ideas to use Sonic more for Sega Saturn. Could you might do a similar video of "What if there is a Sonic the Hedgehog game made for the SG-1000 system?" since I know that was the only Sega Console that doesn't have Sonic involved in that system and I do like to see what your inputs on how a Sonic game fits in the SG-1000 since you did played the SG-1000 recently?
I wonder if the Saturn would have succeeded if Sega had the same focus and direction they would have a few years later with Dreamcast. That is, much less internal strife, not having numerous platforms that confused the market etc... Sega having a library that rivaled Nintendo 64's while being an alternate to Playstation may have set them up to be much more competitive against Sony during the Playstation 2 era. They would have had a year or two more to develop Dreamcast, possibly with DVD along with internet.
Sony's mountain of cash would have kept them competitive on some level the entire generation in my opinion, but I think if Sega has strong, effective marketing, easier to program system architecture, and a more competitive price, not to mention launching on the promised release date, they may have very well come out ahead of Sony, or at least reached sales polarity with them. The biggest issue for them to me is Sony's extremely cheap third party licenses, I don't see a scenario where that doesn't help Sony immensely, but who knows, maybe Sega would duplicate that policy to stay competitive and sell systems. At the end of the day the Sony execs were smart people that wanted to brute force their way into a new market. Sega would have had to pull off a near perfect game plan to outsell the PlayStation early to beat them. I also think if the Dreamcast launches at the end of 2001 DVD of some sort, proprietary or not, is a given, and maybe the neat VMU MP3 players that were shown off in 2000 become reality and standard.
Much of the DC struggles started with the poor performance of the Saturn. Had Saturn done better, it stands to reason the DC may have done better as well.
Copying games killed the DC. Developers backed out and titles were canceled. Half life and online multiplayer could of saved the DC, it would of been the only console at the time to do it. It was cancelled. Why? Copying.
I think I disagree, because I remember the lack of a Sonic game being the main reason I didn't beg my parents to get a saturn. I can't be the only kid in America who felt that way.
Not only Sonic. Games like Golden Axe Revenge Of Death Adder, the 1mb and 4mb games going to the States, worthy sports titles. The Saturn needed to piggyback off the success of the Genesis and bring their arcade games home 100%, and failure to do that is what really messed up the Saturn
Great video. I didn’t own a Sega Saturn back then (I had a N64 and my brother a PlayStation 1), but we did had a Sega Dreamcast around the millennium. Awesome console.
If I had a time machine I would go back to the day they planned the 32x saying it would be a bad choice and tell them to focus on the Sega-CD successor and make a hardware easier to program and cheaper to produce and would focus on the successful genesis franchises to be the launch games. Perhaps today we had the Dreamcast 3 competing with current platforms.
Grest analysis, SL-X. The jump from 2D to polygonal/3D had a lot of casualties. I personally never liked a 3D Zelda or Mario as much as their SNES classics. But Sonic didn’t even properly make it out of the starting until Sonic Adventure. How wild. And as a game-shop employee ‘96-‘97, I can say few people in US Midwest gave a darn about Saturn (or Sega CD/32-X). The power struggle between Japan and US branches is amazing on its own, too. Just…wow.
I think a new Sonic would've definitely helped the Saturn's success. Starting that generation without their mascot made Sega look like they didn't know what they were doing.
Agreed 💯
Nintendo did the same with the Game Cube.
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 And looking at the chart at 15:20, it looks like the Gamecube was (at least until that point) the worst-selling major Nintendo console. I had the N64, but not a Gamecube, and when I looked at Super Mario Sunshine, I didn't find it all that impressive, as it changed the mechanics to be too "shooting water"-based... But at least that did come out within a year of the Gamecube's release...
In 1995, Sega really didn't know what they were doing. They were a mess.
The problem is a garbage Sonic game would have made them look like they didn't know what they were doing and sunk the system too. Imagine how much worse a 3D Sonic game would have been several years earlier and on Saturn hardware then the already terrible Sonic Adventure on Dreamcast. It's the fuel of nightmares!
Sonic may not have saved the Saturn, but it should have been given a shot at least
debatable, sorry to say. Sony was taking up all the new players' attention with their bargain basement prices and huge abundance of games, SEGA wasnt going to grow anymore than Nintendo did during the 64 era, it would've likely satisfied their fans, but like Nintendo, would've stagnated amidst Sony's dominance.
@@UltimateGamerCC The Saturn was chopped off at the knees when it was finding its momentum. No, I am not saying it was ever going to surpass the PSX(PS1) but it could have continued to bring in $$ when Sega truly needed it.
Japan kept supporting the Saturn for several years more, even into the short life of the Dreamcast.
One or two more years in the western market would have been enough to delay the Dreamcast a year or so as well. The DC could have then incorporated a DVD drive which would have given consumers an extra reason to buy it. (Sony used this tactic with the PS2 and PS3).
The damage that guy did by stating 'Saturn was not their future' (among other things) was staggering:
- That decision left some developers pissed off, having to outright cancel projects or move/adapt them to other platforms
-it put (more)doubt in the minds of consumers who had just seen Sega put out a 32X that was quickly abandoned
Other decisions kept many Japanese titles from coming over, X-MEN vs Streetfighter, Darkstalkers 3/Vampire Saviour, Cyberbots, Golden Axe the Duel, Gale Racer/Rad Mobile, Power Drift were a few of the games that never made it to the U.S.
The purchase of Visual Concepts (makers of the 2K series of sports games) soured Sega's relationship with EA who kept their games off the Dreamcast (EA wanted exclusive rights to sports titles on the console).
This was on top of the Saturn era blunder of the early U.S. release which pissed off a bunch of retailers that were not in on the launch. Some never carried Sega products again.
@@lazarushernandez5827 eh, even with a built in DVD Player, that wouldnt have changed much. i mean, let's be real here, the PS2 had SOOOO much more going for it than just a DVD Player. it had Backwards Compatibility for PS1, a new generation of fans to profit off of, and the library of games was just as huge as the PS1. the DVD Player was just the icing on the cake. i love SEGA, but they were just simply doomed to fail, especially with the internal strife going on. and let me tell you, for a while there, it looked like Nintendo was next to fall, somehow they managed to survive and with the Switch, they are really hitting it off.
I agree!
@@lazarushernandez5827 Those Japanese titles wouldn't save Saturn in the US. Hell, publishing them would probably be just a waste of money. 3D was the name of the game, which none of those games were. Yeah, NOW they are recognized as classics, but back then a 2D game would just be seen as yesterday's porridge. Saturn needed flashy 3D games and those were quite rare. "That guy" just stated what everyone else already knew.
If Sega had released a Sonic 2.5D game for Christmas 95 it would probably have been well received. Bear in mind that we didn’t see open 3D platforming until 96 with Tomb Raider and Mario 64. Crash Bandicoot also raised the bar for graphics if not gameplay.
95 was Sega’s best opportunity to capitalise on Sonic’s popularity on the Mega Drive. Sonic Team had seemingly done everything they wanted to do with 2D Sonic and were focusing on Nights. The obvious alternative would have been SoA putting its resources into its own Sonic game given how crucial he was to the success of the Genesis in North America. Couldn’t have been a bigger flop than the 32x.
I’m well aware of this, but since everything 3D was all the rage they foolishly thought 2.5D was old hat and wouldn’t sell systems. Bad move on Sega’s part. Probably the reason why the late asshole ceo of Sega of America Bernie Stoller said “the Saturn is not our future” amongst other stupid decisions.
It didn't need to be 2.5, it didn't need to be Sonic, in the long run, the PS1 won not because it relied on mascots, I still remember my friends who got the N64 selling the console to get the PS in 1997-1998, and many kids sending letters to Magazines asking if the N64 was truly more powerful than the PS, this is because Sony's machine ended up getting games that appealed to the masses more than anything, in each genre it has something for everybody.
True, what you say would work a bit and the console would sell at that time with something even akin to Sonic Mania, but what would happen later, those kids would have grown up a bit and if they wanted to play Metal Gear, Gran Turismo, Final Fantasy, Tomb Raider 2, Resident Evil 2 and more would probably ditch the Saturn.
SEGA ditched the Saturn way too early, even Nintendo which was third place and had virtually no presence in Japan managed to become second selling over 30+ million consoles, because they truly supported the buyers up to 2001 and managed to release a few hits here and there, had SEGA insisted up to the same year, releasing good games, they'd still be second place and the N64 would have been third. Not too glorious, but not too bad, either.
Very true. If SoA never went through with the 32x they probably would have had the resources to focus on a quality Sonic game
Even with a 3D Sonic game the Saturn would have been absolutely crushed by the N64 the moment people played Mario 64. Sega lacked the talent and R&D necessary to pull off a Sonic game comparable to it. Hell! They still lack the talent to pull off a Sonic game as good with today's technology.
@@themeangene I agree that the PS was elegant for the time, bar its less than ideal RAM amount, but let's not forget the PS3 was demonized by many developers, including Sony's own, stating it was hell to make the console display a single pixel from the ground up on the machine, but it's rocky early years wasn't enough to bring it down and it succeeded in the long run, delivering impressive games as developers learned to deal with the console.
Two reasons, Sony didn't jump ship and it had many exclusives and its two prior systems were behemoths ensuring its fan base.
SEGA would have become second in the 32-bit generation, had they insisted on the machine, this is why the N64 sold 30+ million consoles, because there was less competition from 1997 onwards.
With that, Saturn's architecture isn't that far behind in complexity as the PS3, from a developer's perspective, so it's also safe to say the machine didn't reach its full potential. I really love the PS1, but those who enjoyed the Saturn in its time, know how amazing a machine it is.
I remember watching Sonic Xtreme being shown off and even then thinking how awkward it looked to play and how the fish eye lens looked horrific.
Yeah that's bonus level material at best
Word, I'd prolly vomit if I had to play a whole stage like that lol
If by “releasing a Sonic” we mean “actually give devkits with documentation to developers” then absolutely yes.
STI received how many Saturn devkits from SoJ?
1. No, I didn't mispell that. 1 devkit. 1.
Your summary pretty much nailed it, IMO. Saturn was THE system for me as a high school senior in 1996, but I often wonder what might have been. Sega of America should have been jamming after the Genesis, but it just didn't go down that way. To me, the biggest letdown was the following: I was a major Sega arcade fan. I was primed for home released of Virtua Fighter and Daytona. When then Saturn appeared in 1995, they just looked SO BAD. I am a firm believer that a new system has to "wow" the new adopters; typically with radically better graphics and/or novel gameplay. And this sadly just wasn't the case here.
I respect the fact that they wanted to do new ip's, but there are moments when you should do them and moments when you shouldn't.
Sonic X-Treme. A game that went to development hell, lots of things happened during it, ended up being cancelled. The whole story is completely insane. At this point, Sega was at war against themselfs (Sega of America vs. Sega of Japan).
Sega's in-fighting between the US and Japan divisions is what ultimately ruined Sega.
Finally someone said what I thought for a long time: None of the ideas around Sonic X-Treme were good, and if radical changes were not made in the sense of starting the game from 0, the game would be horrible and have a chance to doom the whole franchise
Sega should at the launch of the Saturn have ported Sonic CD to alleviate the demand for a Sonic game, with polygonal bonus stages.
I really don't think it'd have taken Sega long to enhance Sonic CD suitably for a Saturn release, maybe call it Sonic CDS or something. A lot of people didn't see Sonic CD so an enhanced port likely wouldn't have been seen as a cynical cash grab. I imagine the soundtrack differences would have needed to be retained but that's a minor point.
A part of me wonders why wasn't Traveller's Tales hired to make an alternative if "Sonic X-Treme" couldn't make it? They've proven to be especially talented programmers and designers for their Mega Drive games, so that, mixed with input from Sonic Team, could have delivered something the Saturn needed.
Sonic R was that alternative was it not?
@@dapperfan44
Not really, even though it is the only original Sonic game on the machine. Sega thought "Hey, we want you to make a 16-bit Sonic game", even though Traveller's Tales was ready to move on to new hardware. Had they been asked right away to make a 32-bit Sonic game, it would have been more creatively and financially sensible.
"The ramblings of someone looking to blame someone else for their failure" sounds like some X-treme projection on Yuji Naka's part given his usual behavior
It wouldn't save the Saturn.
What could have saved not only the console, but the company as a whole happened before the launch of the 32-bit console.
By not releasing addons in the 16-bit era, focusing on their next generation from as early as January 1993 planning on launching the Saturn with 20 to 30 titles, delivering proper development tools to third parties, ensuring they will earn more, by reducing costs from licensing and making exclusivity deals with them.
Also, the Saturn has a decent library for Sonic fans, I myself played Sonic Jam and specially Sonic R for many years as a kid, Sonic R's main issue is that it features only 5 courses, where it could well have 20.
The Genesis should have been supported up to late '97 as well, just like the SNES did, but they were too busy with their internal problems to make that really happen. True the Genesis received sports titles up to that point, but with 30 million users, you want to extend its life a little more.
With more SVP chip games, like DOOM and even a CPS2 arcade port like the SNES got, the Mega Drive would have sold more software than either the Sega CD or 32X.
Speaking of which, what could have made a huge impact on the Saturn, though, had SEGA ensured the 32-bit console was backwards compatible with Mega Drive/Genesis cartridges via an adapter, and obviously the Sega CD, and since they had the 32X, why not make it compatible as well, the Saturn has a X68000 variant and both SH-2 CPUs like the 32X, with the cartridge slot and 30+ million install base to migrate? Why haven't they considered this? People were still enjoying the 16-bit Sonic games, among hundreds of varied carts on the Genesis and almost no one played Chaotix, the Saturn would have launched with over 800 titles with this.
Looking back is easy to see the problems and issues and also what they should have done, it isn't always obvious at the time.
Many of the Sega's decisions during the 90s can be seen as reactionary:
-Sega CD, reaction to the PC Engine CD Rom attachment which came out in 88. As Sega was developing it, Nintendo had shown mode 7 games for the upcoming Super Famicom (1990), Sega added scaling and rotation abilities (including sprites) to the Mega CD which launched Dec 91. They end up not releasing many games that took advantage of that feature, instead those FMV games are plentiful.
-the 32X was not only a reaction to the Atari Jaguar, it was also a solution to the SVP chip situation. At the time, Virtua Racing the only SVP chipped game released was $100. The argument could be made that as more games were made with those SVP chips the price of those games should drop. The 32X cost $150. 2 SVP titles would have paid off a 32X, which had better polygon handling, scaling abilities and a larger color palette than SVP chip produced. It's games were much improved over base Genesis ones while only being $10 more. It seemed like an ideal solution but it actually(further) split the user base.
A better idea would have been to release a Super/Ultra/Mega Genesis as a backwards compatible 32 bit console, have it be compatible with a future Saturn by the addition of its own CD Rom drive.
Or never have gone down that road in the first place.
Yes, it's surely easy to see things in retrospect, you do suggest some interesting solutions.
Things to note though, are quotes from those who were managing things, if you watched recent podcasts/interviews with Tom Kalinske, for instance, he states a few aspects I mentioned in the original comment, and how dumb of a decision SEGA made by denying SONY's partnership in the upcoming 5th generation, he couldn't believe they refused that offer.
As for SVP chips, sure, they wouldn't be as powerful as the 32X, but that also means they wouldn't need to confuse consumers with with addons and mostly, even DOOM was rushed to a point a proper SVP port could have become a better outcome, all things considered, specially since we're talking about millions of base Genesis owners.
I first experienced DOOM on the SNES and there was nothing quite like it for the console, millions share this experience, they first-handed played this top-tier game in a 16-bit console.
Still, about the 32X games, in case you're familiar with games that both the 16-bit cartridge and 32X share in common, WWF: Arcade Game runs at 60FPS where the 32X runs at 30, it surely looks much better, but in terms of gameplay, the base console is the better experience, same goes for Pitfall: Mayan Adventure and many others. The way the 32X is integrated doesn't exactly mean it will destroy the base console, because it still depends on the console for resources that sometimes won't blend nicely with the addon.
I do appreciate Virtua Fighter and even Chaotix, but as a business, they should have moved the 3D title to either a SVP cart, costumers would be willing to pay more for a current 3D arcade game on an aging hardware, and Chaotix would be a good one that was also rushed, but this time, properly developed for the Saturn, or the Genesis itself in 1996 or so.
@@roberto1519 Yep. I am aware of all of that. The 32X was a rushed product as I'm sure you know. Sega of Japan was worried about the Atari Jaguar stealing market share before the Saturn was launched. The 32X went from concept to production in less than a year.
A more thought out standalone 32x or better yet a cartridge based Saturn/Neptune that had backwards compatibility (either built in or adapter) would have been a better alternative. The native 32 bit cartridges wouldn't have to run through the 16 bit hardware (causing the issues mentioned). That console (Neptune) could be offered for less money, and augmented with a CD drive at a later time. Maybe they did on another timeline...
Kalinske also mentioned that Sega of Japan pretty much shot down the use of the hardware that became the N64. That is an entirely different what if.
With the SVP chip situation Sega would definitely have had to manage the cost issue, It was pretty well known that Nintendo's Super FX chips were not increasing the price of those games by the same margins.
I don't know how long Sega of Japan would gone with that though, they finished 3rd in the 16 bit gen in Japan and wanted to move on.
I agree, true about the Silicon Graphics story as well, Kaliske did mention that, too.
I still think SEGA should never considered the other consoles as threats, but they indeed did, Jaguar, 3DO, PS1, and even the Neptune concept wasn't a good idea, either. That's why I mentioned the SVP stuff, to extend a bit more the life of the base Genesis. Had SEGA focused entirely on the Saturn properly, pretty much what they did with the Dreamcast later, but that was too late, meaning, they released the Dreamcast with many good quality titles, the Saturn didn't have that and it really hurt the console in the west. The PS1 was losing to the Saturn in Japan for quite a while, a big IF, Square had also launched its games on the Saturn, we would be talking a very different conversation now. SEGA should totally have made deals with more third parties from the 16-bit era onwards.
@@roberto1519 I would say that they did focus on Saturn, they just did so in Japan. They supported the Saturn well into the life of the Dreamcast.
They ignored the situation in western markets. The Genesis was doing well in western markets in the early 90s and could have continued to bring funds in if they had handled it correctly (unironically it outlive both of its add-ons).
They also ignored the threat of Sony, Sony back in the 90s had money to throw at solutions. Sure that may have been esteemed as beginners to the gaming market back then, but they were giants in other markets: TVs, broadcast equipment, audio equipment, CDs, music and entertainment, etc.
Sony also spent a lot on marketing.
They likely threw a lot of money to various third parties.
A lot of third parties were also getting sick of Nintendo's way. Nintendo tended to be the ones you dealt with in regards to the manufacturing of the cartridges, they were also the publishers/distributors. they took a large cut of the price of the game and controlled the production, they also scheduled the release of the games on their consoles with first party titles often getting better exposure.
With Sony, CD media was far less expensive, the developers had a better cut of the price, and CDs could be reproduced much quicker than cartridges, meaning if a game was a hit, they could respond an have more product in the stores quicker.
It was literally the perfect storm of events for Sony.
A 2.5D Sonic in late ‘95 would’ve been perfect. A streets of rage sequel would’ve been great, too
A 2.5D Sonic CD could've been released WITH the Saturn, even as a pack in.
I finally purchased a Sega Saturn last year and as of now I own 14 games for the console including Sonic Jam, Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R. I wish Sega of Japan and America could of came to an agreement with making a Truly 3D Sonic The Hedgehog game for the Saturn.
You should get an ODE. I got a Saturn 6 months ago and have already played all 3 scenarios of Shining Force 3, hours of Galactic Attack and Gaurdian Heroes, and now am playing through Panzer Dragoon Saga. It really has been so worth the really simple mod
I'm not sure the Saturn could have done something to the epic scale like in Mario 64, it's world's were gargantuan for its era, but Sonic Team could have copied Crash Bandicoot and focused in on creating narrow, bendy, detailed levels, to keep the draw distance down and framerate up.
I remember at the time, reading my Sega Saturn Magazine...Naka said several times he didn't wanted to make Sonic because he wanted a new mascot. He thought he was capable to do it again.
Arrogance killed Sega...😢
Can you imagine what would have happened to the Xbox 360 had Microsoft not released a mainline Halo entry for that generation? Not only was that Sega's biggest mistake on a very long list, but it was one of the worst ever in all video game history.
It worked when they switched Alex Kidd to Sonic,why not?
The former only was a success in Europe,the later in Europe and America but not in Japan.
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 Alex Kidd was a failed attempt at an iconic mascot. It would've been be folly to keep him featured as a main attraction. Sonic was the real thing.
I can't blame a creator for wanting to experiment and not just be stuck in one path forever, and on the one hand it IS kinda cool corporate allowed him to experiment... but in hindsight him thinking Nights could be a new Sonic really does boggle the mind.
Creative types often want to move on to create the next thing, instead of being stuck on working on the same series. For example, Bungie left Microsoft because they no longer wanted to work on Halo. I think making Nights was a good move and it was a wonderful, truly innovative addition to the Saturn library. However, Sega could've hired some other japanese developer to make a 2,5D Sonic for the Saturn.
If Sega had decided that the 32X was just not going to work, and had pushed all those projects to the Saturn for its launch, Knuckles Chaotix could have been reworked as a Saturn launch title. Sure its not a true Sonic mainline title, but it would have tied people over with its lush 2D graphics and new mechanics. Sega could have said this was the appetizer for the main course and then gone full tilt on the Sonic Worlds prototype to be a full game later on.
I think one of the under-rated aspects of Sonic to appear on the Saturn was Mark Cerny leaving Sega. He was one of the few people who was fluent in Japanese and English and understood both cultures as he worked in game development in Japan and the US.
Hes basically the reason why Sony's first party studios are as strong as they are.
Very informative, thanks for 😌👍
@user-rd6zt2hi7r Mark Cerny convinced Yuji Naka to join Sega of America after he quit Sega of Japan after the release of the first Sonic game. Since Mark was fluent in both languages and spent a few years living in Japan (and marrying a Japanese wife) he knew how to bridge between the two cultures. When Mark left Sega after Sonic 2, STI broke apart with the Japanese devs working separately from the Americans, eventually going back to Japan after Sonic & Knuckles.
If Mark stayed at Sega he may have been able to convince SoJ, the importance of Sonic to Americans and actually got a good dev team to work on it. It's still baffling that Sonic X-Treme was being made by a small team with little experience. Since in Japan, Sonic wasn't that big and it was Sega's AM2 arcade hits that was pushing sales of the Saturn. He may also have been able to convince SoJ to give devkits and prototypes to SoA early. SOA didn't receive devkits until the same time as Japanese 3rd parties in mid 1994.
But mostly importantly he could have organized the SoA dev teams better. After the Japanese left, STI was a complete mess. Cerny always had a knack (pun intended) for finding talent. It's why Sony 1st party devs are so good. He saw how good the talent at Naughty Dog and Insomniac were and somehow convinced Sony to throw a lot money at them even though they were inexperienced devs at that time. He may have been able to the same with SoA if he stayed, since other than Visual Concepts, Sega's American division was bad at making games during the Saturn and Dreamcast era.
I think Sega of Japan never did realise that Sonic was basically the foundation of their empire. The Genesis wasn’t really anywhere before 1991, it was another also-ran like the TurboGrafix
Sonic lifted that console into the stratosphere and was the app that gave the console a foundation for a lot of other killer titles: Eternal Captions, Ecco the Dolphin, the sports franchises, and so on.
The fact that the Saturn not only neglected Sonic, but also all their other A list titles, shows how out of touch with reality Sega of Japan was.
The Saturn may have been a neat console, but it was a console that was really never meant for the American or European market - it was a console by and for Japan.
The absence of any triple A American market titles, any great sports titles alongside the deluge of arcade ports popular in Japan and quirky games like Nignts that appealed more to a Japanese aesthetic and mindset shows this.
Why would they think so?Sega was an arcade developer first and foremost.
It was Out Run,After Burner and later Daytona Usa and Virtua Fighter that definied Sega.
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526I dunno, I think they should think so because Sonic was a success that far exceeded any of the titles you mentioned, making them more money (even if just through merchandising / licensing etc) and getting more recognition. I do not mean to disparage Daytona USA, or the hard work behind the earily pixels of Virtua Fighter or the ground being broken in After Burner and those early arcade games. But the acclaim those games earned and the mainstream breakthrough Sonic earned weren't in the same ballpark, and I don't think it's unreasonable to recognize that.
@@goranisacson2502 Not really. Sonic 2 saw half the sales of 1, and 3 even less than that. Sega of America also weren't as successful during the Genesis as we think, since they had to buy back TONS of unsold stock from retailers after the holidays.
@@samalton5837 I did mention licensing as Sonic had a comic, several cartoons and I think that in terms of sales numbers the Sonic games 1 to 3 still outsold Virtua Fighters 1-2 (which I feel are the relevant games to discuss here considering the theme was "importance to SEGA in terms of impact at the time of the Saturn"), so I think Sonic as a franchise with all surrounding merchandise did far more for SEGA's wallet than VF and Daytona did, but I admit I had no idea about that whole buy-back thing so I may be going on incomplete assumptions here- what's that all about?
@bowman3530
il y a 0 seconde
No one I knew cared about any of the games you mentioned. Not sure on sales, but word of mouth at least, Sonic was god compared to Racing Game X.
Sonic continues to thrive, including multiple films, decades after its release. Having no Sonic game was a disaster.
What it really needed was an AM2 perfect port of Sonic the Fighters. Think about it, people went crazy for fighting games and rave music at the time, something Sonic the Fighters had in spades. Fighting craze+Sonic craze+rave music=mondo big bucks for the folks at Sega!
I'm alianger, thanks for reading and have a great rest of your day.
Yes, definitely. Sonic sold consoles back then. It was HOT.
Not having a new Sonic game taking advantage of the neat hardware of the Saturn at the time at launch was plain suicide
Sonic jam doesn't count since it is just (in official terms) a hub to access games that already appeared on the Genesis
Was it?The franchise was already suffering fatigue around '95 with every main game selling less and less.
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526because those games leading up to 1995 were the same side-scrolling games again & again. A 3D Sonic game would have been a hot seller because it was new, and would have peaked people’s interest in how powerful the Saturn really was.
I'm disappointed in no mention of the Sonic into Dreams unlockable from the Christmas NiGHTs release. That was probably the greatest taste of Sonic on the Saturn.
i play it constantly just to taste
Given how Sonic Adventure helped the Dreamcast launch, I have no doubt in my mind that Sonic having a big exclusive Saturn game would have sold way more units.
It sounds like they really needed Sonic Team to help out with the Saturn launch before they started new projects
Yeah 1995 was almost certainly too early to try a 3d sonic.
Most devs had no idea how to make slower more traditional platform mascots work in 3d, on consoles that were easier to program that stuff for
Great video and i agree. The more we analyze, the more we realize Sega had too many problems that would have most likely doomed the Saturn and eventually the company. Saturn itself needed to be geared more towards 3D in order to position itself better against both Sony and Nintendo. A Sonic game, even a 2.5D one would have done a lot to help but the way Sega was being ran and managed at the time? They needed both Japan and American branches making good and sound decisions and working together in order to have a chance to survive.
It would've helped for sure, especially bringing in younger gamers but their was no stopping PlayStation in the 90s they did everything they could to succeed.
Croc proved that the Saturn was definitely capable of doing full 3D adventure games with ease. It's a shame that Sega couldn't get any Sonic games up to the level of Croc on the Saturn. I actually liked Bug and its sequel, Bug Too. I had fun running around in that quirky little world, and the pseudo-3D felt pretty epic at times. Not sure how well they sold, but I thought they were pretty solid for when they came out.
A sonic game on the level of croc sounds awful tbh
Croc is terrible. Even back in the day I could tell.
It could do them, problem is that developing 3D games for it was significantly harder than it was for the Playstation and that the hardware wasn't as capable for 3D as it either.
@@magicjohnson3121 the point isn’t whether or not Croc was a good game. The point is that Croc showed the Saturn could handle a 3D platformer without a significant downgrade in Performance from the PlayStation.
@@EOTA564I think the effort that they had to put into the port in order to make it run so well made it untenable for publishers to release them on the Saturn though
Those fisheye scenes do look kind of cool for a moment, and I say that as a steadfast hater of fisheye, but I really don't think I could have stomached an _entire game_ like that. The boss area footage seemed neat, though, surprised it didn't wind up someplace else.
It looks like a good idea for some bonus levels but not for an entire game. There also seems to be some nice reflections effects going on there.
1988: Sega 6% market share
1993: Sega 60.0% market share
1998: Sega 6% market share
1998, they were down to 1% market share. Bernie "Saturn is not our future" would not localiize those Japanese 2.5D games and jRPGs... right when jRPGs had gone nuclear.
If a sonic game that was anything like the little 3D game on Sonic jam it would have crushed everything else.
If a semi-decent Sonic on the Saturn released before the end of '97, it probably would have shifted a couple more million Saturns and given SEGA some time to breath and developed the Dreamcast to be more competitive against at least the PS2 specs wise.
A Sonic 4 in 2D, a Sonic Adventure in 3D, a good Shinobi sequel, Streets Of Rage 4, Golden Axe 4, an arcade perfect Thunderblade, a Sega Rally with more cars & tracks and so much more.
This might be a weird thought but I think it would have helped Nights into dreams a bit too. It’s a high concept kind of game and I think the more familiar sonic would have had people be more open to it.
Absolutely. I didn't care for the look of NiGHTS, but I think I would have been more open to trying a new/different Sonic Team game had I already had a Sonic title.
@@matthewwonks2534 Yuji Naka said that they wanted to take a break for Sonic and focus on something new.
I don't know why they didn't just port SegaSonic the Hedgehog from the Arcade? There was a Sonic game that was beyond the 16-bit machines right there that could have been a launch title or alternative pack-in.
Well, for one they probably didn't want to have a 2D game as Sonic's debut on the Saturn. It's also controlled with a trackball and the entire challenge of the game is based around that, so it wouldn't really make sense on a regular controller.
valid point, what was Sega thinking?!
Great video and a very fun hyptothesis. Since the SOA document leak, we have even more reasons to see how Sega declined so rapidly, with Sonic being just another one of those problems, even if it was ultimately an avoidable one. Self-inflicted wounds everywhere, if you will.
An actual Saturn sonic exclusive would have been a massive publicity boost for the console on of itself. Sonic R, Sonic jam, and a sonic nights into dreams skin were like a tease of what could be. Had a 32X and loved the graphical style of Chaotix, a glow up on sonic CD, but the whole "tether" thing really put me off😢.
Oh hey a new sega lord x at 7am. What a nice surprise
The Saturn was designed (by the Japanese) to be a home version of many arcade boxes. The Saturn's most important function was fast pixels; unfortunately. However the market for polygon supremacy was greater than smooth pixels. Sega of America went along with this overall (what choice did they really have) and made the best they could out of it
@@PhilBaxter Sega's arcade and home console divisions were separate entities. It was the home console guys - who had success with the Genesis and experience in making 2D games - that were pushing for the Saturn to have an emphasis on 2D capabilities.
Yet still Saturn had theoretical maximum polygon output higher than the Playstation. It was just much more complex hardware. A mistake Sony would then proceed to make with the PS3
@@PhilBaxterbro I don’t mean to start an argument but your bias is really obvious
@@PhilBaxter Yeah I agree, the PS2 & 3 are kinda not that great. I personally blame the PS2 for starting the “bland era” of gaming. Also, I would know about the PS1, I have one across the room from me right now.
The Saturn kinda sucked back in the day, but aged quite nicely in my opinion. Everyone was on the 3D hype train back in the day, so any thing that was 2D was “old news” and “not appealing”. As the years went on though, that “3D > 2D” thing kinda died, so we can take a look back and see if we missed any amazing 2D linear gems that were unfairly pitted against 3D open blockbuster titles the N64 & PS1 had, like Super Mario 64, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Final Fantasy 7 & Metal Gear Solid. Most of the 3D games on the Saturn were on-rail shooters & tournament fighters, and sometimes arcade ports. Those games are not very expansive, and very repetitive, the EXACT opposite of the open & anti-linear designs of the N64 & PS1 hits I mentioned earlier. Those games were hits because not only were they just great games, but also because they followed 1 big trend: 3D “open-world” game locations. They were big adventure games with long stories (excluding SM64) that lasted for hours upon hours, something the Saturn couldn’t handle. The focus on 2D processing power is a blessing now, but a curse then, with the console not being able to handle what people wanted. However, the games on Saturn, though primitive compared to its competitors, are impressive experiences all on their own. Burning Rangers is an interesting little game (though it’s a bit laggy on real hardware), Sonic 3D Blast is an enjoyable Genesis experience made better on Saturn by its graphical enhancements and impeccable soundtrack, & Nights: Into Dreams is a smooth 3D… game (I dunno what genre it belongs to) with an appealing surreal art-style, tight, responsive controls, & graphics that aged like a fine wine.
I love the Saturn, but it has many flaws that are hard to overlook when you compare its library to its competitors. By itself though, it’s a charming little piece of hardware that was treated unfairly by those wanting to ride that 3D bandwagon.
Oh, and those who wanted a 3D Sonic, but we don’t talk about Sonic Xtreme lol
@@Stuffies2022 Yuji Naka said that they wanted to take a break for Sonic and focus on something new.
I'll never forget how much those special 3D stages confused me when I was a kid. I was like wtf, is this the same game? But it was still fun and challenging. Many fond memories despite all of the shortcomings.
Once again, a very informative and compelling opinion piece. I love listening to your takes on various topics
I was listening to sega saturn shiro a little while back and they were interviewing the guy who created bug and said that bug was meant to be a sonic game. This was only a couple of mouths ago but I can't remember the reason why it did not happen.
I don't think it was just Sonic that ended up getting ignored but also other IPs that had been big sellers for the Mega Drive/Genesis. Games like Streets of Rage, Shinobi and a new Phantasy Star game could have made the Saturn more appealing to a Western audience.
A Sonic may not have saved it but a Saturn that was backwards compatible with the Genesis/Sega CD/32X and continued development of games for those platforms may have saved it from being considered as big of a failure as current media considers it. Maybe not a huge success, but not a huge failure.
The Sega Saturn had Sonic R (a racing game with 5 courses each with their own unlockable character and their own songs which were sung by a woman called TJ Davis. Also memorable for the Tails Doll meme. The game would be fun if it could be played online nowadays on a modern console) and Sonic Jam (Which allowed Saturn gamers to play Sonic 1, 2, 3 and Sonic & Knuckles) as Sonic games.
As sad as it is, nothing short of changing management in Sega of Japan could have saved the Saturn. The two cultures of America and Japan were so disconnected that it was impossible for it to be saved.
I could do my own video breaking this down.. but TL;DR unlike Nintendo, Sega did not have 1 piece of successful hardware in Japan and the west. It was always the opposite if you look at how popular the master system "in pal regions" and the genesis was everywhere else.
The Mark III/Master System, Mega Drive sold very poorly compared the PCE/Famicom and Super Famicom In Japan and barely even had market share during the 8-16 bit in Japan.
Now look at the Saturn, it was a massive success in Japan and in the west.. It was over shadowed compared to the ps1, N64 and even the remaining life of the Genesis with it's last bit of releases.
This is something else that led to Sega's downfall, aside from their swansong that was the dreamcast they never had one unified piece of hardware that sold successfully.
I really loved Bug!, the way that game works would've really been accommodating to getting Sonic on the Saturn.
A game designed like Crash Bandicoot would have also worked for the hardware.
Croc proved that a game like that could have worked.
Definitely one of the better “what if” scenarios for SEGA. Imagine if a proper Sonic game came out for the Saturn sometime around 1997 and was a huge hit. You gotta imagine that would have significantly boosted sales of the console, which would have likely pushed the development of the Dreamcast back a bit. That means SEGA may have taken their time with development and actually included a DVD player in the console, which could have lessened the blow Sony dealt them… which means SEGA might very well still be making consoles today.
Or maybe it wouldn’t have changed anything at all. Who knows!
This. All day. This. SOJ was jealous and sabotaged their entire company
Sad.
I sure would've bought one. I got PSX instead for Tekken 2 & Final Fantasy 7. After the system died my older bro gave me his Saturn with a bunch of Sega exclusives like VF remix, VF 2, Panzer Dragoon 1 & 2, Amok, etc. I didn't care because none of them were a new Sonic, Streets of Rage, Phantasy Star 5, or a proper Golden Axe game.
Yeah I don't have anything for that so who knows. Would it have kept them making consoles or would it still doomed them the same way it did in real life.
A key reason why Nintendo still develops hardware is that Nintendo understood early on that Mario was the foundation of their gaming business.
While other franchises like Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, etc have all been important, Nintendo always made it a priority to not only put Mario in spin-offs, but ensure new 3D and 2D mainline entries were always there to help push hardware.
The reason why I say this is because I think Sega of Japan simply did not understand that Sonic was the foundation that supported their business.
They saw only lackluster Mega Drive and Sonic sales in Japan, and drew the wrong conclusions.
Nintendo banked the entire Nintendo 64 launch on Super Mario 64 and the game was worked on by the best talent at Nintendo because they understood the importance of getting their flagship franchise out the door with a game that made a strong impression for the hardware.
The fact that Sega failed to make getting a definitive Sonic game that showed off the Saturn hardware their top priority speaks volumes about how dysfunctional Sega was in the late 90s.
I disagree on one thing. I think a full fledged Sonic game could have saved the Saturn in the west. While I think there would have been no stopping the PlayStation juggernaut, having a 3D Sonic game alongside localizations of games like Capcom's X-Men vs Street Fighter that could only be done properly on the Saturn would have pushed hardware and given Sega an identity here.
Toss in new entries in popular Genesis franchises like Streets of Rage or maybe using their Disney license to create a 3D Mickey Mouse game, and I think the Saturn could have done better in the west.
It might have still lagged behind the PlayStation, but it might have been closer to the N64.
Bingo!
Nintendo knows their fanbase, SEGA didn't know their ass from their elbow.
I love SEGA, but damn were they stupid.
I feel like Nights was equivalent to anything Sonic Team would have made, even if it had starred Sonic. They wanted to take the platformer in new directions by making it feel fast like an arcade game. Going up against Mario’s “everything bigger in 3D” approach I think it would have lost the 1996 holiday ho matter what. That being said, as someone who bought Nights, took time to figure it out and still plays it, I think it’s the platformer that fits the Saturn.
I feel like if a 3-D Sonic game using sonic Jam/Sonic R graphic engine could of potential rescued the saturn from total doom if present around the time that Nintendo presented Mario 64.
It'd be like sega putting up a middle finger to Nintendo like they did during the genesis days. Then, Nights and Burning rangers afterwards would of been a great tri-fecta showing off the hardware. Sonic should have come first.
Then Panzer Dragoon Zwei against star fox 64.... it would of been great in my opinion.
They didn't have an answer for Sony (Grandia, Shining series vs the final fantasy sure) as a whole but the could of fought off Nintendo.
I've always thought a sonic themed temple run style game on the Saturn would have worked real well and would have changed a lot
I loved the Sega Saturn but I was very disappointed that they didn't manage to put out a decent Sonic title for the Saturn. Another great video thanks for sharing!
I think it's clear that if someone could travel back in time and give some kind of advice to Sega circa 1992 it would be 'Your next console needs to be affordable and backwards compatible' Also, maybe get Sega US to pull their heads in
Maybe using all their money to buy good studios like CORE,Naughty Dog and Lobotomy Software instead of burning money in fmv games and the 32X fiasco.
In the alternative timeline even without Sonic they could do what Sony of America did in the PS3 era.
Affordable and backwards combability don't go into the same sentence. There was no upgrade path while being affordable. If they used a 68020 they wouldn't have the performance they need and going to a 68040 would've been far too expensive. And throwing a entire Genesis into a standard Saturn would've made them bleed money.
@@MonsterHunterLancer Maybe, but failing to leverage their installed base of 16 bit machines in some way, was ludicrous given the sheer size of Nintendo, not to mention Sony, both arrayed against them. What would you have them do? I just don't see how Sega could've won or even survived without a major course correction early in the cycle
@@MonsterHunterLancer I don't see why they would select a 68020/030/040 for Genesis compatibility when it uses a 68000.
Ironically, a 68000 is one of the chips inside of the Saturn. An Adapter accessing it along with the other chips required by the Genesis (Z80, Yamaha YM2612 if the Saturn's own YMF292 couldn't handle things) on board, would have been a low cost alternative not affecting the Saturn's price.
Sonic wasn't the only IP conspicuously absent: where was Streets of Rage 4? Phantasy Star 5?
I really hope we get a port of Sonic Mania or such a thing to the Saturn - it would right a terrible wrong
I really liked Clockwork knight. It wasn’t sonic, but it was kind of what you thought a 2.5D Sonic game could look like.
There were more platformers to enjoy, Pandemonium!, Croc, Gex, Jajamaru, Tryrush Deppy and more.
clockwork knight and three dirty dwarves were two of my favorite saturn games
God i love Clockwork Knight 1 & 2 so much
@@roberto1519Unfortunately, at least 3 of those are also on PlayStation.
Good point, it was a great title indeed. But still not Sonic...
I think the jump to 2D to 3D really hurt them as they didn't know how to rebuild the games into a 3D one.
It was the whole speed thing. That and polygons
Yuji Naka knew, but threatened to leave Sega if people within Sega, a company he worked for, continued using a tech for a game that was important for the company's success.
@@CW0123 Fun Fact: Silicon Graphics wanted to team up with Sega to power up the Saturn, but Sega said no. So Silicon Graphics partnered with Nintendo instead, resulting in the N 64.
Imagine what would have happed if Sega said yes???
3D had a rough start in console gaming but we all thought it was mind-blowing at the time 😄
I remember when the Saturn was released and waiting for a "real" Sonic game. I couldn't have been the only one.
Still waiting on Sonic Xtreme
@@JORDANLEWISFILM Sonic Lost World is the closest we'll get to Sonic Xtreme.
Imagine having a Sonic Adventure type of game on the Saturn, that would've been sick
Oh god, please no! Adventure wasn't good even if you grew up with it, and the Saturn version would have been so much worse.
@@mrdeatheliyou're tweaking HARD imo, SA1 is amazing and probably one of the best sonic games behind S3&K. But I guess I can understand your opinion since thoughts on SA1 and SA2 are pretty polarizing nowadays.
They were conceptualizing it to some extent at least, as shown in sonic jam
They had it.Sonic Adventure as well Shenmue started as a Saturn title.
In a bizarre timeline Saturn was a global success and Sonic Adventure was realesed in mid '97 for the system 😂
Sonic Adventure isn’t bad. Got some jank but it’s mostly good.
I always felt that Ninpen Manmaru would have been a great example of a would-be-sonic-saturn-game.
I needed this at this time of night.
Thanks to you I got a slick white japanese sega saturn + Sonic R and Sonic Jam (Also an action replay, of course). I also plan on getting more games like Sega Rally and Fighters Megamix. Thank you SO MUCH for sharing your in depth knowledge of this terribly underrated console.
Thanks!
Welcome!
Despite all of Sega's mistakes it's truly miraculous that Sonic Adventure turned out so amazing. What a shame Sega didn't have the funds to develop an add-on to boost the power of the Dreamcast with subsidized pricing to entice buyers. That was the only way they had any hope of surviving the 6th gen wave.
You mean continue a concept that caused many consumers to lose faith in Sega to begin with?
Success for the DC even with an add-on still would've been a long shot no doubt. The correct choice would have been making the DC more powerful from the beginning. The Sega CD wasn't a dire mistake or an outright failure. It was the 32X and Saturn that really hurt Sega. The final nail was making the Dreamcast underpowered. It needed at least another 100mhz and an additional 16mb of RAM to stay relevant against the PS2.
@@ForTheStyle There was a plan for Sega to use a chip called the 32X, but it was canceled.
I honestly believe a Sonic game on Saturn would not have made a single difference, instead I offer the dirty fact of what could have made it a success. Virtua Fighter helped SEGA take an early lead in Japan and other east-asian territories, if SEGA included full VCD capabilities in the system from the get go and took a larger production vs sales loss considering the console price, they could have absolutely sown up the entire east-asian market by marketing the Saturn as the ultimate home entertainment system. This was a plan SEGA had, but they relied on extra cost elements such as upgrade components or partners later manufacturing more expensive VCD ready units, which were ignored in favor of much cheaper VCD players. Strangely, if they'd made this decision, it would have also had a 'shadow effect' on unit sales in other markets if SEGA decided to use the pron industry as a means of offering the Saturn as a means for cheap and easily tradable materials. Dad's would have had the option to convince the kids to get a Saturn rather than a rival system, with the appearance of 'they'll have a games machine' while he himself will have a 'pron machine' and single guys would have owned an innocent looking game system that could be used for nastier things. As dirty as this sounds... it would have worked, pron sells and sold really well back then when the internet was still in a fledgling state. Then with the Saturn having a larger market share, 3rd party support would naturally increase and even when/if games looked superior on PS1 and N64, the Saturn version would have been the bigger seller by virtue of more units in more homes. Video CD was the key in 94/95 and SEGA decided to not use it except as a means to gouge more money as an expensive upgrade unit.
That chart @15:20 hurt my heart. The Sega Saturn was my first console and I was one of the only kids (in 3rd grade) that had one. I remember when Playstation took over and even then it was sad that I couldn't convince my friends how awesome the Saturn was. It's weird how the sales numbers explain exactly what was happening, but when I was a kid I had no way of understanding the business side of my beloved video games.
If Sonic Extreme would have been released on the Saturn. I would have owned a SEGA SATURN in my youth.
I remember looking inside of a Target store and was very disappointed at the Sega Saturn library. Nothing really caught my eye.
Amazing work "SEGA Lord X" Keep up the good work I love your contents.
Not having any new Sonic game definitely hurt them, along with the botched launch. But the Saturn's main problem was its library in general. North America and Europe were by far Sega's key markets. Yet Sega chose to focus on arcade ports and 2D shmups. Both of which were quickly falling out of fashion in those regions. Sonic could have brought people to the Saturn, but there wasn't a lot to keep them there. The reality is that PS1 had the better launch lineup, was technically superior, and was $100 cheaper. And the PS1 kept consistently delivering games players wanted over its lifetime. The Saturn didn't. I was a Genesis kid growing up, as were most of my friends, but I didn't know anyone who had a Saturn. I don't even remember it even being on my radar. Not that my parents would have bought 10-yo me a $400 console anyway.
Excellent video my friend! It really lays things out for those who never grew up with Sega’s mainline systems.
I would have wanted a Sonic game on the Saturn to be based around a hub world, looking like the one from Sonic Jam. With each zone having it's own area that you can travel between, a la Banjo Tooie. Then you'd pick each 'Act' of the level by going through a portal or something like in Crash. I would have varied the gameplay between a 2.5D sidescroller, and a 3D level style kind of like a sped up Crash Bandicoot mixed with Sonic R. Oh and I'd lift the bonus stages straight from 3D Blast, and maybe a bonus stage with Nights gameplay but using Tails instead.
A sega console with no Sonic games is like an Italian restaurant that doesnt serve spaghetti.
Like the Nintendo Game Cube without a Super Mario game at launch?
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 took them less than a year to get one at least.
...or pasta.
So a pizzeria?
I think about having a main line sonic on the Saturn way too much 😂
3D platformers were mostly janky until Mario 64 and none of them were built for speed. These games (even Mario 64) chugged along 20-30fps. The speed necessary for Sonic would've been really tough to do.
If sega had just NOT HIRED Bernie Stollar they could have had a chance
They should've developed the Neptune in a similar way of the MegaCDx, and sold as a recall to Sega Genesis with a discount price tag, and as a standalone full price console.
And delayed the Saturn until the AM2 arcade boards became cheap enough to be put into a console.
Obviously not, the main problem was the price tag, the poor catalog launch games and the final fantasy fatality in 1997
But what if Tomb Raider was a Saturn exclusive?
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 not enough, the problem was that the Saturn didn’t have enough exclusive AAA games from others company.
I feel like Sega needed a launch like the Dreamcast's, but in 1995. I don't mean the hardware itself, but the unified front and firing on all cylinders. If they had cut off previous generation support and solely focused on the Saturn, it would have fared much better. I think a safe approach for Sonic on the Saturn would be to develop 2 different games simultaneously, one being 2D, and being 3D. Have the 2D game come out first, and be fairly similar to the Genesis outings, but make it feel like an extremely high end 2D game. Then later in the generation release the 3D game after you've gotten a decent software engine running on the Saturn. You could even tease the 3D game's story in the ending of the 2D one. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, so it's easy to speculate from the arm chair. :)
Great video as usual, I enjoy your thoughts on mid 90s Sega.
9:00 hahaha, ouch! The game over music for "The Sonic games we did get"...love it!
Yeah, I agree. Even with the seven Chaos Emeralds, Sonic wouldn't have been able to save Sega from themselves! I vaguely recall reading an article in a gaming magazine (I think GamePro) way back then all about Sonic X-Treme and it actually had got me interested in the Saturn. I was puzzled when months later, no official release was announced and it quietly disappeared. I now know the truth about its development.
I did pick up Sonic 3D Blast on the Genesis, but it just struck a sour note with me as a kid. It is interesting to think what could have been. A 2.5D Sonic that showcased the Saturn's power seems like such a missed opportunity! But, yeah, Sega had bigger and more glaring problems. It was probably best Sonic didn't get involved in management's internal strife!
Probably not saved but it certainly would have helped.
It would have helped if it was released at the same time as the console release date
I like the 2.5D idea. I doubt anyone would've thought of it though but if lock on had been thought of it would've been a cool way of switching quickly between multiple planes. The nights engine would've worked well.
I think the biggest hurdle was actually the 32X, it either needed to be cancelled outright or the Saturn itself delayed for a while, if only so it wouldn't seem like such a cash grab. While cancelling would probably have been the smarter move, delaying the Saturn would have the benefit of letting everyone come to grips with the Saturn's crazy architecture since the 32X was very similar, and Sega launching with better tools and dev knowledge out the gate would have been a huge plus for 3rd party devs plus their own games (let's not forget the shoddy state Virtua Fighter launched in)
Sonic Extreme alone would not have saved the Saturn. Several factors to consider: If the Saturn was released as originally planned, used only one super 32-bit processor for easier programming, maintained the strength of their sports category like they did w/Genesis, released the RAM cartridge games, and maintained a good relationship w/Working designs. Then, Saturn would of lasted longer. Or even better…. Sega of Japan should of agreed to work w/Sony, and let Thomas Kalinske take care of the rest.
Fascinating time and one the greatest "what might have been" in gaming history. Great video!
I showed someone what Sonic Xtreme looked like and they said “That wouldn’t have fixed ANYTHING”
I think of Sega had released Sonic 4 and made it 2D with some 3D effects it def could have helped the Saturn live longer in the West. If nothing else, it woukd have shown developers the untapped potential of the Saturn vs PS1 during that era.
A launch 2.5D Sonic 4 would have helped the SEGA SATURN massively!
Nah,just a Sonic CD + Knuckles Chaotix bundle with some gimmicks would be fine.
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 Nobody wants an old port of a game on there new system.
They also could've released Sonic CD for Saturn because not many people had a SEGA CD. But no. Sonic 3D Blast had more priority because it had the word "3D" in its title. SEGA was destined to fail just how often they kept making dumb decisions like that.
Excellent point, even as game in Sonic Jam would have been pretty cool.
I had sonic R and 3d blast and still have them. And for me theyvare fantastic games. The soundtracks are something else in these games
Using that sonic jam 3d engine and some level design adjustments sonic adventure would have been possible on the saturn (taking advantage of the big planes and using vdp1 polygons sparingly). What a shame we don't get to see it!
This is a good video idea of using a what if ideas to use Sonic more for Sega Saturn. Could you might do a similar video of "What if there is a Sonic the Hedgehog game made for the SG-1000 system?" since I know that was the only Sega Console that doesn't have Sonic involved in that system and I do like to see what your inputs on how a Sonic game fits in the SG-1000 since you did played the SG-1000 recently?
I wonder if the Saturn would have succeeded if Sega had the same focus and direction they would have a few years later with Dreamcast. That is, much less internal strife, not having numerous platforms that confused the market etc... Sega having a library that rivaled Nintendo 64's while being an alternate to Playstation may have set them up to be much more competitive against Sony during the Playstation 2 era. They would have had a year or two more to develop Dreamcast, possibly with DVD along with internet.
Sony's mountain of cash would have kept them competitive on some level the entire generation in my opinion, but I think if Sega has strong, effective marketing, easier to program system architecture, and a more competitive price, not to mention launching on the promised release date, they may have very well come out ahead of Sony, or at least reached sales polarity with them. The biggest issue for them to me is Sony's extremely cheap third party licenses, I don't see a scenario where that doesn't help Sony immensely, but who knows, maybe Sega would duplicate that policy to stay competitive and sell systems. At the end of the day the Sony execs were smart people that wanted to brute force their way into a new market. Sega would have had to pull off a near perfect game plan to outsell the PlayStation early to beat them. I also think if the Dreamcast launches at the end of 2001 DVD of some sort, proprietary or not, is a given, and maybe the neat VMU MP3 players that were shown off in 2000 become reality and standard.
If Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 couldn't save the Dreamcast, why would any mainline Sonic save the disastrous Saturn?
Much of the DC struggles started with the poor performance of the Saturn. Had Saturn done better, it stands to reason the DC may have done better as well.
Copying games killed the DC. Developers backed out and titles were canceled. Half life and online multiplayer could of saved the DC, it would of been the only console at the time to do it. It was cancelled. Why? Copying.
I think I disagree, because I remember the lack of a Sonic game being the main reason I didn't beg my parents to get a saturn. I can't be the only kid in America who felt that way.
Not only Sonic. Games like Golden Axe Revenge Of Death Adder, the 1mb and 4mb games going to the States, worthy sports titles. The Saturn needed to piggyback off the success of the Genesis and bring their arcade games home 100%, and failure to do that is what really messed up the Saturn
Great video. I didn’t own a Sega Saturn back then (I had a N64 and my brother a PlayStation 1), but we did had a Sega Dreamcast around the millennium. Awesome console.
If I had a time machine I would go back to the day they planned the 32x saying it would be a bad choice and tell them to focus on the Sega-CD successor and make a hardware easier to program and cheaper to produce and would focus on the successful genesis franchises to be the launch games. Perhaps today we had the Dreamcast 3 competing with current platforms.
Grest analysis, SL-X. The jump from 2D to polygonal/3D had a lot of casualties. I personally never liked a 3D Zelda or Mario as much as their SNES classics. But Sonic didn’t even properly make it out of the starting until Sonic Adventure. How wild. And as a game-shop employee ‘96-‘97, I can say few people in US Midwest gave a darn about Saturn (or Sega CD/32-X).
The power struggle between Japan and US branches is amazing on its own, too.
Just…wow.