Does it Matter Whether Dog Training is Positive or Aversive? Psychology Today MY RETORT
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2024
- Psychology Today posted an article on their website on January 2, 2023, "Does it Matter Whether Dog Training is Positive or Aversive" which I felt had several fallacies and faults in the study that they cite.
Here's a link to the original article so that you can follow along:
www.psychology...
In this video, I break down the article, the findings of their "study" and address each issue from the perspective of a trainer who has dealt with countless breeds and behaviors.
Please share this information with your fellow dog lovers, dog trainers and anyone who is interested in the well-being of dogs!
Check my online dog training:
robertcabral.com
My complete online dog trainer course:
shelterdogtrain...
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I appreciate your excellent presentation. I am a retired professor and scientist, although not in a behavioral or psychological field. I am also a dog trainer who competes in agility and obedience with Airedale Terriers. Have you considered submitting a rebuttal to the journal Psychology Today? I think readers and researchers in this field of psychology need to see a balanced argument.
@@Valethea Thanks for your reply! I think psychology today might publish a rebuttal by Robert if it’s well written.The magazine rather than the journal with the original research, would be the appropriate target since it is the average dog owner who we need to influence. And I don’t think that scientists are hopeless!
They won't publish the whole article if you do send one in. They will more likely just publish a review trying to not only call you the Nazi and try and close you down altogether. You have to look at what is in the CRT+++ that has taken over universities and publishing to believe it. What they want to try and do with dog training is just the spill over of what has happened in all human fields through the universities into every other field in the west.
That's the thing, Psychology Today isn't a journal in the scientific sense, the "journal" that the study was published in is just PLOS which is an open access journal that will print all kinds of garbage. And further, it's a magazine about humans not dogs! The same rules just don't apply and It would be nice to see a real study some day that included real training and not just a propaganda study that is designed to obfuscate and fail.
Either or, wow if you only did adversive your dog would be total neurotic mess.
I spent two years trying to get my dog to walk decently on a leash with “force free” training. My best friend suggested and taught me to properly use a prong collar and it was an instant change. She wasn’t upset about it, she just instantly knew that the check would be less pleasant with the prong collar on. She’s now loose leash about 90% of the time without the use of the prong collar. It took a bit of time, but she’s so much better now. And, her prong collar isn’t bad in her opinion because it means that she gets to go into stores or to my parents’ house. They’re good places to her. She is not food or toy motivated, which made positive reinforcement training next to impossible. I pick up her prong collar and she comes to sit in front of me. She loves it. I love the relief on my arm and the ability to control her when she forgets her manners. It’s always a good time.
Thank you for being such a great voice on this subject!
These “studies “ drive me crazy…so biased…I feel they have never used the e-collar properly …why is there never a study of real balanced trainers like yourself, and how much this way of training benefits the dogs total life.
Please keep up the fantastic work you do with dogs!
You can barely trust one "study" that comes out on behalf of dogs on any topic if it has been written in the past two decades.
Thank you Robert! People get the completely wrong idea in their heads about e-collars and "experts" like the ones in the study just make things worse.
I just ordered an e-collar for my GSD/Belgian Malinois. He knows his basic commands, however, he is an adolescent now, with high prey drive. He's continuously barking at me for inapproprite things, attempting to intimidate me into doing what he wants now. My ears and my blood pressure won't allow me to keep him if this does not get corrected, and prong is not sufficient with this breed mix. Robert Cabral is 100% correct, and this is the only way he will be able to succeed, after trying everything else. I love him and I don't ever want to lose him, however, a "positive treat-trainer" would have done this (let him go) long ago. He's a brilliant, trainable dog - just too smart for his fur.
Good job Barbara. I'm curious where did you get your mix? I love a good working line German shepherd. Shepherd Malinois mix but there's a lot of variation. I like how they breed them in Holland, but I have seen some nice one in the states so I'm curious.
Done this? Not sure if you’re talking about meds, cause they’re all about drugging the dogs or euthanasia.
@Lillie Berger No meds. I don't want to do that. Just everything else in terms of training.
@@lillieberger2883 By "done this," I meant let him go.
Well you got yourself a handful with that mix. Personally I think any training positive or negative should be intellectual, I don't think you should get angry and punish your dog, blood pressure has nothing to do with it. Pretend you have autism. I think you got yourself such a handful of a dog that you should probably get a professional trainer.
Robert you should write the paper and ask for a retraction based on the points you make. They do look at these and then can increase their standards for subsequent articles
I’m thankful you’re on top of the idiocy of these self-proclaimed experts.
You are absolutely right!! Eliminating any amount of stress is not only the problem with a lot of dogs, but MANY children these days. Smh. Dealing with low levels of stress is an important life skill for us and dogs!
Very good breakdown Robert. Thank you.
There are some bad 'Psychology Today' articles. I read one written by an 'expert' that described counter conditioning. It was not counter conditioning, rather it was flooding. Dog was described as 'petrified' but was eating so it was ok. No. No it's not. Some dogs will eat when 'petrified' but won't play, won't engage with the handler, and don't learn anything. It certainly does not help them trust the handler to keep them safe, nor slowly face their fears.
I have written a book on tool bans, the bias in science etc, which will probably will be published next year.
These kinds of articles are the worst propaganda, the studies never include actual trainers and effectiveness, they usually just blast the dog without actually teaching the dog with the ecollar like actual ecollar trainers do in real life. I looked up the study referenced in the article and it's even worse than I thought, they did 3 trainings and that's it and like you said they are using metrics that aren't relevant or measurable like "stress". When I introduced the ecollar to my dog I did a solid week of just putting the collar on him before we went outside without turning it on. Then it was several weeks of extremely low level recall training involving treats. Until these studies actually represent real training they mean absolutely nothing and are simply damaging to dogs. My dog runs off leash every single day because of an ecollar, he would not get to do that without it, and to be honest it's been months since I even pressed the button on our daily runs. I have a pointing dog and I've been to some seminars with some very famous dog trainers that can probably be called compulsion trainers, and the reality is that even dogs that go through these systems are doing really well and are happy and healthy. I think there are better ways but the reality is that you can't say it doesn't work or causes all the problems that these studies would have you believe.
Dogs need your voice, thank you for all you do!!! Personal experience- I have a sweet young lab who has been a major challenge to me, especially as I was trying to follow the 'positive only' dog trainers. If it wasn't for balanced guidance such as yours, I would have given up and given her back to the breeder. My beautiful girl is now thriving and happy and becoming an amazing companion!
bravo!!!
My dogs have always been conditioned to have a positive association with the e-collar. My current Doberman goes crazy and excited the moment he sees both his e-collar and prong collar.
Stress can be both positive and negative. Being excited is stress. Being frustrated is stress. Using both in training with clear and concise communication can achieve great results.
My first boxer, I fell through the propaganda of positive only training. I was determined to be the greatest dog parent in the world! Long story short, it messed up my dog. Bad. I went back to my old trainer that used e-collars and he instantly knew that I used positive only on my dog. He told me that it was going to take a lot of patience, work, and time to bring balance back into my dog. Yep. 6 months of daily and consistent work. During that 6 months we made progress, had some regression, and there were times where I felt defeated. I started feeling guilty because I caused her behaviour and I was now introducing negative forms of training which confused and frustrated her. But, we managed to get through it together.
Positive training has its time and place. But, negative training also has its time and place.
The work I'm putting into my Doberman now is the investment for later when I can give him all the freedom in the world. But I can't achieve that goal with positive only. No freaking chance.
Bravo Hippopotato and congratulations
I seriously question the validity of this particular study, those conducting it entered the study with a bias and worked backwards from that to prove their point, with no genuine scientific curiosity. To not provide any details of the subjects (what breeds, what ages, what sizes), to not repeat the study on a new group of dogs of the same breeds (what happened to the use of a control group?), the use of clearly biased language in the paper, etc sound very iffy to me. What’s interesting is, if they had used dogs with serious behavioural issues they would find that the stress levels would be much higher for a dog with a behavioural issue being trained with “positive only” methods because the problematic behaviour would persist and the dog would not understand what it is you want them to do. Balanced dog training removes stress from the lives of dogs with behavioural issues and gives them another chance at life.
You are Appreciated Robert!
Blessings to you & yours
E-collar is THE ONLY way to stop my BSM female from chasing animals and focus outside. I tried it all - positive approach, distracting, rewarding with food or toy, NOTHING HELPED and it only was getting worse to the point she tried to run away. Just one use of e-collar outside changed her behavior and she’s keeping her focus on me instead of her surroundings ignoring me completely and she can be returned from chasing prey. Positive methods only encouraged my dog to test me even further and to take charge. Not gonna happen ever again, aversion is NOT hurtful if you use it wisely and correctly.
I just put an e-collar on my 10mo old frenchie last week (I was skeptical and uneducated) and its night and day - he's almost a completely different dog LOL. Much more responsive to the commands we've been working on. I can quickly correct and guide him, creating less stress for the both of us.
pls don't forget to use the magic word NO before you hit the button or some people say LEAVE IT then press the button. This way the dog can associate the word with the shock coming up next so he or she will behave right away.
Congratulations on shocking your Frenchie
And just by the by, anybody who thinks you would ever hurt a dog on purpose (as oppose to correcting wrong behavior) clearly has not seen you talking about when Silly was dying. Just thinking of it brings tears to my eyes. You so clearly LOVE your dog and dogs in general...
Hi Robert, i saw this journal article recently (not in Psychology Today), but in it’s original form and caught many of the flaws in both language, anthropomorphism and insane use of equipment and just the entire definition of adversive! As a professional dog trainer who specializes in behavior modification and who has three setters i hunt (two with e-collars, one without) I would like these people to measure the corisol levels of dogs in the emergency rooms, who are there because they have been either injured by aggressive dogs (trained with only positive reinforcement, my client list) hit by cars due to no recall etc. Plus the part that really sends me is when these brilliant scientists equate mental and physical abuse caused by human anger as being exactly the same as the proper use of training collars, e-collars or appropriate use of force to get a dog’s attention. I always tell clients that the correction allows the dog to pay attention so they can receive positive reinforcement, it’s really that stupidly simple. Thanks for always being a passionate voice in defence of dogs and those of us who love them without agenda!
I have two Great Pyrenees, one 8 months and the other 19 months. These dogs are famous for their love of roaming plus they are large dogs that could be more than a handful for me to manage. I am a 60 yr old woman and I am a novice dog owner. Tried positive only training… every day for months- with discouraging results. Our farm is a 1/4 mile from a busy highway. I stumbled upon balanced training (The Monks of New Skeet) and carefully introduced an e-collar. I coupled that with your approach of using a long lead to teach a reliable recall. Additionally I have worked with my two female dogs to deter competitive & potentially aggressive behaviors. My dogs have not left my property in two months. The way they look to me for direction and leadership, the joy in their faces when I release them to run and my relaxed attitude in knowing they will consistently respond to the tap on the e-collar is priceless.
I recently had a disagreement with someone about the use of corrections in dog training (I keep greyhounds, so we're talking about a firm "No!" or a gentle tug on their lead to redirect their head!) and went to find some studies and was appalled at how disingenuous and unethical the methodology was-- ALL of the studies I found compared positive-only training to aversive-only training, and focused on teaching basic commands. First, almost any training method is going to work better than terrorizing the dog until it figures out that you want it to sit, so it tells you nothing useful about positive-only. Second, this struck me as wildly unethical, since there was no reason to subject dogs to an aversive-only system except to "put a thumb on the scale" in the study when they could have looked at other approaches. Third, the entire premise was off, since the entire purpose of using a correction is to stop a problem behavior, not teach a dog to sit (for example, the correction for my greyhound was to stop him from eating cigarette butts off the ground-- yes, was upset I wouldn't let him eat the cigarette butts, but I know better than he does!).
There is alot of lousy science out there these days.
Dogs need correction the way I see it I'm the Alfa male an the pack leader the pack drive is still in there DNA , I used to have a Doberman an from time to time he would try an challenge me to be the Alfa male
I was at a party which a person arrived late to. The dog of the house began barking at the latecomer and wouldn't stop, even as people were greeting him and trying to converse. The owners were obviously tuning out the very loud annoying barking of this dog (a rescue pit bull, - imo the behavior would be unacceptable in any breed but not correcting a pit bull seems particularly stupid.)
Eventually the barking got to me and I yelled at the dog to stop, which it did for a moment, then resumed. Still no acknowledgement from the owners who were standing right there. I don't know the "proper" technique, but I do know allowing a dog to harass a party guest is outlandish on both dog and owner behavior. I again yelled at the dog to stop and shooed it out of the room to stop the harassment of the guest. Then, the dog did quietly slink back into the room with tail between it's legs and hug onto it's male owner who knelt to console him and said, "aw, you scared him." What in the holy-hell is going on in the minds of people these days??
The owners are a middle class, seemingly intelligent, successful couple who have raised two dogs and two children prior. The dogs in the past were better behaved than the children which was probably luck. I'm concerned because the breed that they now own isn't one to be careless with but they have fallen for pit bull lobby propaganda and are completely oblivious to the perils of owning a dog originally bred for bloodsport.
They actually think their dog doesn't bark, even as it is barking. I have seen another pit bull owner tell a delivery man that his dog doesn't bite even as the dog was biting him!
Are people brainwashed?
Just to reinforce what you are saying, To start with a premise like, 'E-collars are bad for dogs' and then set up your study to prove this, is not really a good use of the scientific method. The premise should be more like, 'ARE E-collars detrimental for dogs? If so, are they always detrimental? If not, when and how are they useful and when not?" The former statement begins with a conclusion - (e-collars are bad) never good science. The second is an open inquiry into e-collars. This would take into account what you are saying about what settings on the collar might be of use to humane trainers and what settings would spill over into abusiveness.
The studies I'm aware of do not set out to prove a conclusion. However, you are 100% correct the conclusion should not be the basis for the study.
I'll tell you what the solution is for difficult dogs that do not respond to positive only... Euthanasia. This is what positive people do. They reward the dogs they cannot train by killing them
Sad but true
I know of exactly zero dogs that were euthanized due to failed positive reinforcement training, but that seems to be a common theme among balanced trainers stating that.
People get so up in arms over tools trainers use when they don't hear about how my clients deal with their dogs without the proper training and use of them. I'd say half the people who come for behavior modification and obedience (at this location) abuse their dogs because they can't control them whether they know it or not.
GREAT live! Keep preaching the good word on training tools that HELP dogs and owners. Thank you Robert for all you do.
I’m glad you used the bicycle chasing as an example. I know someone who consulted a positive only trainer for just this problem. Their solution was to avoid bicycles. 😂
that literally made me laugh out loud! PERFECT!
My guess is that the R+ trainer advised the client to avoid bicycles to keep the dog under threshold while an alternative to this behavior was taught. Setting a dog up for failure and then punishing them for it is abuse.
Im not sure that many of these people truly understand the implications of what they say. The fact of not giving positive reinforcement when the dog wants it, regardless of behavior, causes increased stress and is also "Aversive". Also this idea that stress is bad is a foolish idea that permeates society. Stress is not bad, its your thoughts about that stress that are bad.
These positive only studies simultaneously try to anthropomorphize dogs while ignoring human psychology/biology.
As children, we learn a LOT of life skills through consequence & stress. We know not to run red lights because we may get T-boned. We know not to touch hot surfaces because we may get burned. When these negative consequences actually happen, they reinforce our desire to avoid those consequences, and in turn, we LEARN.
But these researchers conveniently ignore this aspect. They choose to believe that dogs are like babies and need only good experiences to thrive but contend that they're not like babies because babies actually learn from bad experiences.
How exactly can this be considered "science-based" when they're ignoring an entire section of science? You can't pick and choose your data.
Great video as always!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and skills in your videos. This is very helpful for learning more about training a 10 month old very energetic German shepherd with a big prey drive.
It was very interesting to listen to your analysis of the publication about aversive or positive training approaches. So much depends on the characteristics and background of the dog. What one dog may find aversive, another may not even notice that there was an intended correction. I also enjoyed your analysis because I train both horses and dogs, so a prey animal as well as predator animal. It is fascinating to learn and apply what works and what doesn’t work. Thanks for what you do.
My dog loves his Ecollar, that way he knows he is going outside. He eats, plays and works with it on. He comes and happy to wear it. Also, he loves prong collar. Today, he is fine without prong or Ecollar they are more for me. With these tools i feel much more comfortable as I feel that in any situation I have control. He is a service dog. Lives a happy life with balanced training.
Also, I am not sure what is going on with TH-cam but I didn’t get a notification about this video. This is the second time recently, so you may want to check what is going on. Hopefully, they are not downplaying you because of certain “wrong think” if you know what I mean. Keep up the great work, Sir!
I hate when positive only trainers try to convince others that corrections are inhumane. I always ask - is that humane to get dog into stressful situation over and over again? Is that humane if I can correct the dog, then praise him/her when he/she will do what needed and we will spend less time on fixing the problem?
I have two european dobermans - both with very strong pray drive, very quick in reactions. Male is 4 years now, he is very tough, yet stable, strong-minded, dominant. I have him since he was 8 weeks old. Female is 1,5 year, adopted few weeks ago from people who didn't care to give here any rules or structure and just got rid of her. She has incredible food drive, strong good prey drive, she is quick and easy to go in seriuous frustration, she can bite whatever is close to her in such state. She isn't so tough as male is, but tough enough to ignore some corrections. I use e-collar in training on both dogs - I use different force, and in different situations, but it's the best tool I ever had. It's clear to both dogs, they learn very quick and in effect I use mainly vibration and both dogs get tons of praise, because they present desired behavior. Female doesn't get in frustration when corrected with e-collar. She is calm and she thinks, she pays atention and it's realy beneficial to her, because she can learn how to be calm and be happy, safe dog. Could I do it without e-collar? Yes, but it would be slower, and not so clear and easy for dogs. Could I do it without any corrections - not at all.
I have to say the e collar is king.. since day one it has worked it is by far the most effective tool for thier safety
Its the ultimate off leash recall tool.
In eu is going everything to south, everything becames forbidden. Everyone became only positive trainers. However for example in Belgium the dog should be always on the leash, well in my opinion this is also a form of negative association by not allowing the dog run free. But that doesn’t fits the society and therefore it is ok. It is always one way with those positive training gurus.
Superb uploading
Watched some other videos by "positive only"/"force free" "dog trainers" recently who would try to cite (bogus) studies about "aversive training" (and studies that had nothing to do with correct aversive tool use, but just outright mindless animal abuse of animals that weren't even dogs) being all bad and its absolutely bonkers to me how, according to the responses of some of these other "trainer" channels, getting one harsh correction on an e-collar in an emergency situation, like a dog running after a squirrel into a busy street with traffic and not responding to a recall it knows, is somehow worse than something like the dog getting hit by a truck and dying, because stress MIGHT be involved sometimes.
Like you said, when do we draw a line between "emotional stress" and physical danger. Would you let a dog drink coolant because it likes the taste and whines at you when you take it away even though it'll kill them because now they're "emotionally stressed"? By the way some of these "positive only trainers" talk, you'd think their answer would be "yes".
There is so much cognitive dissonance in the "positive only" cookie-clicker dog training movement that the only appropriate word for it is "insanity". These are the people who get "difficult" dogs needlessly killed when their cookie isn't enough incentive to stop dangerous behaviors because no one ever taught the dog the difference between acceptable and unacceptable behaviors.
If you have a dog who is constantly running into the street to chase after a car or a child, that is a management issue. Why is the dog being allowed access to be able to do this? The human has complete control over that. If the dog has not been trained not to chase, it has not yet worked up to off-leash privileges in that environment.
Theres no need for corrections, you use positive only training and when it doesnt work you rehome the dog!!! /S
Yep, that’s what they do.
I've had "conversations" with people online over this. Some people have even eluded to thinking euthanasia is better than trying aversives.
Very articulate and well explained Mr. Cabral. I salute you for this great response in a dignified manner. My dog was trained in Neuman K-9 academy and there they use the word NO then hit the e collar button. So everytime I say NO, my dog knows that the shock is coming and behaves right away so I do NOT even have to use the e collar. I also do not believe in treat based positive reinforcement training alone.
I fix undesired behaviors with correction/consequence based methods and I use incentives/rewards for behaviors I like.
I would love to see you an one of those unexperienced so called dog experts in a Q an A show....would be highly eye opening ....love these talks robert👍👍😊
Awesome , thanks ❣️
The words in the study are emotional words. I'd only actually listen to a study that used fact based words. The words "harsh" etc are just too open to interpretation.
Super content Robert & very well presented.
Glad you enjoyed it
Robert, you were dead-on on each point here. Well, done
Thank you for this video, I am training in France. They are trying to pass the law to ban E-collars/ prong/slips. It will be awful if they succeed with this. The " positive only" movement here is huge! The failure to see that any tools in the hands of someone inexperienced can be dangerous... don't give a sharp knife to a toddler... E-collars and prongs are life changing for dogs. I have a few clients with deaf dogs... how will this work if the bill passes here too... here Ralph have a treat, please don't chase that squirrel across the road???... this makes me crazy. All these "studies" that are far from realistic in the real world of dog training. That being said, all the people screaming animal welfare while they are eating a big fat hamburger.... just saying... anyhoo GREAT VIDEO! Thank you!!
Maybe the collars should be designed to only have minimum settings 🤔
Thanx! Lijepi pozdrav iz Croatije..
😢😢😢😮😮😮
Conundrum: Using minimal shock will only work after you have given , exposed the dog to a firm shock for something like crossing the road. So you have conditioned him with basically a warning along with your voice ' NO' . The truth is the dog has to live under threats just like a child becomes afraid of a parent if they are physically punished. This is psychologicaly distressing to anyone even when done with good measure. And the dog does not see that his life was in danger but that you are a force of presence growing up. What are we selling here ,? Buyer beware.
You are wise. A combination of techniques, and tailoring the methods to the specific animal and breed, is the most effective,
Do you think there is correlation between total ff and the rise in reactivity in dogs? It seems to me that dogs are feeling insecure with their owners and do not understand boundaries or right from wrong. No one is in charge of the pack. They don’t trust their owners to keep them safe. We are not raising strong dogs - so many dogs can not handle any stress and lash out
The extremely “positive only,” community is littered with owners that physically abuse their animals behind closed doors. Positive training coupled with corrective training is necessary when positive only isn’t enough.
Hi @RobertCabral? and @Alin & Crew!
As a member, still having challenges getting through on dashboard and email. Wondering if it's a tech issue on my end. Can you offer a suggestion?
can you send an email to info@robertcabral.com
Excellent video! But WHY does an e collar need such high levels? Dogs respond to such low levels, and the problem is often when people don’t properly condition the e-collar and instead use it as punishment.
Not all dogs respond to such low levels. Just like not all people have the same pain tolerances. I know folks who could have dental surgery without pain meds while I struggle to tolerate teeth cleanings. Boxers could sustain much more force than I ever could. Differences in breed and genetics coupled with built tolerance.
The thing is, you need both, all the time... And cruelty is also counterproductive.
thank you
It always bothers me because positive reinforcement only cannot work to get to dog to stop an unwanted behavior. By definition it can’t. They also use a correction such as pulling the leash. That is AVERSIVE. No one would call it that, though. But if you use a slip leash to guide them to their bed it’s harsh and cruel lol
Did you have a video about choosing the right dog breed that was taken down? I thought I had seen it but didn't have time to watch and now I can't find it. Thank you.
not yet.... picking a breeder yes...
@@RobertCabralDogs ok, thank you...I might have mis-read the title. If you ever do a video on picking the right dog breed, I will be sure to watch it!
You address my exact concern. My dog hasn't chased a child on a bike, but it's just a matter of time. He is perfectly obedient until the anxiety or prey drive hits, and then no amount of treats or praise will get his attention. My question is, how can I find a responsible trainer? I've worked with a positive only trainer that cannot help, met with an e-collar trainer whose demonstration was terrifying, and spoken to some who were outright insane (wanting to teach me to communicate through growls, etc). Would be awesome if you had a referral system.
Where are you located?
@@dinnyf Fort Worth
Great video 📹
Another really bad study clearly. Good on you Robert for drawing attention to it.
We have one problem with paris I throw his toy he’ll run bring it to me but he will not drop his toy no matter what treat I offer him he will not! But if he takes that is not his and was not supposed to he drops it as soon as I’ll ask him “drop” we can’t play he won’t give his ball or any toy for me to throw it only when he feels like it’s time 😂 I never thought him drop toy in his early age but did teach him to drop what’s not his I heard somewhere while he’s teething don’t teach him drop a toy
Now we have a problem how can we correct it?
Thanks
It sounds like the "aversive" training they studied was far less enjoyable for dogs than balanced training practiced here in the US.
Why is there no mention of the beep or the vibrate setting?? All of these studies are so bad
Did you read my comment from a few months ago regarding dominance and wolf behavior in Yellow Stone??
Positive-Only dog training (woke dog training) makes life Hell for the whole of society.
Absolutely correct!
"Woke dog training" I love it 🤣
12:50 gawd yes!!
You are Voice of reason in this crazy world where studies are made to support ideology.clearly this person has never seen good trainer that uses aversive train. There is no way to avoid stress in life.
as a portuguese this shit embarasses me
This is a flawed study on many levels, small sample size, biased dog selection, no control group, invalid conclusions based on results (30 day review used as a proxy for long term effects) etc. If this study was done on puppies in a litter the puppies are corrected by the mother dog and it's litter mates from day 1, these same adverse effects can also be observed. Does this mean the PP trainers advocate removing puppies from their mother and each other from day 1? This doesn't make sense. It is common sense that dogs learn via positive and negative associations.
Oh my God where do these people go to school ??? A tigger cannot be treated like a cat because they are both cats ……
It seems pretty dishonest of you to say all studies that test the aversion of a shock collar exclusively do so on the highest setting. Not only is this factually incorrect, but you didn't even provide examples of it happening in the first place. "Trust me bro" might work when you're preaching to your small minority audience that already agrees with you, but it's not very convincing outside of that.
Why do you even discuss an article where the original premise of the question is wrong? And also fall for their definitions which are wrong and start using it yourself? Good lord, people is never gonna get this and trainers help perpetuate the ignorance.
Because when you ignore it you fall like Europe has. If you’re not gonna stand up and fight for dogs and dog owners, get out of the way
@@RobertCabralDogs You misunderstood my words. My point is that, starting with the title of the article title the premise is wrong. Saying "positive vs avsersive" is wrong. As you should know an aversive stimulus can be employed within a constructive positive framework. Positive and aversive are not styles of training. Falling in the trap of binary analysis is contributing to the pervasive myths that surround dog training. Definitions are important and that is what is lacking among trainers today. I am very much on the side of sound dog husbandry as it relates to a spectrum of tools and applications. And, no, I will not be out of the way, infact Im much in the way of making people's and dogs live better. Choose your words wisely. Subscribers, views and attention does not neccesarily equal to supreme authority.
It doesn’t appear that you listened to the video? Maybe try that before judging the title of the video. These are the premises that most of these flawed studies or review articles use. If one is going to argue or question the premise, one must start with the same language.
@@dinnyf I did, and in general Robert makes good points which I am in agreement. I actually value him above the clownish state of dog training content. You are missing the point if you think I'm going against Robert. But if we are gonna have a good fight centered on truth it needs to be with correct definitions, not loose principles and language. For example, An aversive does not neccesarily mean "harsh" and every "correction" is an aversive stimulus an antagonist, if it was not it would not be productive. It seems trainers are not having the courage or the intellectual knowledge to stand by what an application of an aversive means and succumb to sugar coat it. Winning the battle of political correctness in dog training needs to be with precise definitions, I would have started with the title of the article, the title of the article is trash it is devoid of a logical premise. They guy that wrote it may have a PhD, but he is clearly part of an agenda. A pseudo scientist. I would debate that PhD publicly anytime, no reservations.
@@dinnyf Furthermore, you are incorrect in saying that questions with erroneous premises need to be argued, much less agreed with it, those are logical traps. Arguments need to be constructed around correct premises, that is the correct way to elevate knowledge and discuss the merits of ideas, perceptions, principles...etc. Much needed in the field of dog behavior.
I think what these positive only idiots don't get is that a correction is used once or twice.... then we have years of a well behaved dog.
They have to be "training" every day for years and still have a dog that won't behave 😒.
This same line of thinking could be applied to school children lmao, this doesn't justify the archaic abuse of your sentient companions.
@spazzwizard5211 True...we should never tell our kids No either....?!?!? Since when is No abuse??? So weird!!!!
@@ashley9325 the correction is referring to shock collars you baboon
@spazzwizard5211 The name calling is comical!! ...I suppose you are dishing me out some Positive Punishment. Ouch.
Just a note, real trainers build dogs, manage environments,and know how to be interesting to the dog. They don't just hammer on dogs! They use Punishment only when the dog completely understands the correct behavior. Otherwise, they are correcting them to WHAT?! Corrections only come after the dog is built, and corrections depend on each individual dog.
@@ashley9325 Well said. Looks like our friend Spazz is severely misinformed...by that Bark Box guy I'd wager
junk science vs reality
Stop apologising for punishing and dominating dogs. Off course we dominate and punish dogs otherwise they would dominate and punish us.
Hmm so you expect people to believe that the current E-collars(which of course plays into your semantic word games, this device is colloquially known as a SHOCK caller.) is similar to a "tap" on the shoulder, yet a dog who has probably experienced much more aversion to a behavior than a tap on the shoulder continues it anyway. Either e-collars will be more affective because they're more aversive to the dog, or they're equally ineffective. I think we both know it's the former and until you address this contradiction you and what you stand for will remain irrelevant.