Why Do VR Games Look Bad?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2021
- So, VR games don’t look as good as other games. Why is that.
Let’s talk about it. Or, I’ll talk about it.
Just sit politely and nod.
Twitter: / knowledgehubty
Soundcloud: / user-503704039
Patreon: / theknowledgehub
Second Channel: / @seaburgerdotorg2154
Spotify: open.spotify.com/artist/3STpe...
Additional Footage Credits:
BrandonJLa
Node
GoldenCube007
BMF VR
BMF VR
GameNews
GameNews
Digital Foundry
Nerd Reactor
ProProMello
MIXED - Mixed Reality News
gameranx
Logitech
iGN
ScreenDoorVR - เกม
![ถ้าพี่วุ้นท้อง แป้งจะท้องไปด้วยกัน !!!! [ดูคลิปเต็มหน้าช่อง] #Short | PANG ORNHIRA](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FeyEnVMwitA/mqdefault.jpg)
The screen door effect used to be prevelent on older headsets like the Vive or Rift CV1, but not so much on newer headsets. on the Index and Pimax at least it's there, but you have to look really hard and look at a bright background to really see it.
Those magical rendering techniques you were talking about are actually pretty VR specific and it's called foveated rendering.
It requires eye tracking and is basically the computer making everything you're not looking directly at blurrier to save performance. It's like the holy grail of VR performance.
I haven't had the screen door effect on my vive? Then again it's one of the newer ones
Foveated rendering is a potential game changer. Given how poor our vision is outside of the fovea, it has the potential to flip the rendering advantage towards VR - you won’t have to render the whole display like you do with a flat monitor (even though with good eye tracking this could come to 2D as well).
Heck, even less powerful headsets like the Quest and Quest 2 have solved this problem for the most part. I cannot see the screendoor in my Quest at all unless I'm looking directly at a solid color for an extended period of time.
@@BlueSparxLPs quest 1 has a really bad screen door effect, almost always noticeable unless your fully immersed in a game. Headsets like the index, quest 2, and hp reverb g2 are the ones that have greatly reduced screen door effect
@@artisbs_ I've had a much different experience with Quest 1 than you, then. It's definitely not as good at hiding it as Quest 2, but you still have to actually look for it.
But, but... I just want to play Beat Saber goddamnit.
You can play beatsaber on a 750TI with a secondhand Oculus CV1 for about 150-200 bucks lol
@@rackneh or Quest 2 for 300 bucks
@@rackneh yeah dude I ran beat saber on my old gtx 770 2gb, very similarly specced card and it ran fine.
@@machuncz1261 If you want to do PCVR and don't have a PC you're better off going for a second hand rift. They're cheaper so you have money left for the GPU.
Especially for basic games like Beatsaber.
Although this is all facts, VR is still a fun way to game. Don't let this deter you from trying it if you can afford it. There's a lot of games that find ways around these issues for the time being.
Nah man VR just makes things less fun to play.
@@maxharper3737 I disagree with you, but respect your opinion
@@maxharper3737 I'm guessing you haven't played modded skyrim vr recently
@@harryarches6285
VR isn't really fun for me 🤢
@@maxharper3737 all it does is makes me hate pancake games now,all i can think when i launch a normal game is how awesome would have been if it was in vr,since i got my index 6 months ago i barely touched a flat game,press R to reload?lol thats so lame,press click to swing a sword?why when i can phisically do it myself in a stereoscopic enviornment like blade and sorcery,there is no going back only those that cant afford it or are morbidly obese or handicaped would prefer going back to flat gaming,even then i used vorpx to inject 3d in flat games and still play on my headset.
I think that the biggest thing holding VR back in this case being the display technology is actually kind of a good (or at least better) scenario to be in, since the issue comes from something that isn't unique to VR, and therefore, doesn't require a mass market to continue to fund the technology directly, because VR can instead piggyback on the innovations made in the mainstream to overcome this hurdle. If it was an issue related specifically to VR without any innovation being made in the mainstream, then we'd be in trouble, since solving the problem would require lots of people to pay for the shittier version, to fund the advancement, even if it's not clear whether or not it will be viable.
With newer display technologies, like microLED and flexible processors like PlasticArm (made of plastic, but very energy inefficient right now), we might hopefully see it become easier and cheaper to produce screens with a higher level of pixels per degree. I'm hopeful that we'll see those innovations from the mainstream computing business make their way into VR, and as a consequence, make it cheaper while getting the same if not a better level of quality.
Whats the point in flexible processors and what benefit do they bring to VR? The only use I can see for flexible processors is in implantable technology or artificial limbs
I would think that we should be using *less* plastic in consumer goods, not more.
I doubt microLED will make it to VR anytime soon. That technology is still way too expensive for a consumer market
Something unique about VR is the distinction between graphics and clarity. Graphics make a game look nice, but clarity makes the experience feel real. Sub-pixel details and sharp edges do more to trick your brain than achieving photorealism. In fact, some of the most immersive VR experiences I've had are in games with cheap graphics, since it leaves enough processing power to supersample the image as high as 2x. It also should be said that graphics don't matter so much in high intensity games, since your brain doesn't notice those details as much when you're focused on gameplay, and you'll probably want the extra performance anyway.
I've never regretted buying a Pimax 8K X because of that. Performance sucks, but the experience is rather real (with its large FOV and high pixel density).
This is kind of bullshit. Yeah, it's not as clear as a flat game on a 4k monitor, but on an index or quest 2 with high end pc, it still looks sharp and incredible. I'll admit I'm running a 3090, but even the quest 2 standalone mode is plenty sharp. Like others have said, don't let this deter you from trying it out. The millions of us that love vr in its current state aren't crazy, we love it because it's awesome.
While resolution and screen door issues are annoying and legitimate problems in VR currently, I almost wonder if Whimsu doesn't have his HMD in the "sweet spot" for his eyes or something considering how blurry it seems to be for him...
I run my vr games on an msi gtx1050
Absolutely man, just try it out. You probably have some friend who owns VR headset or rent it. Even after playing PSVR which has very obvious screen door effect I was mind blown. A little after that my friend got Quest 2 and it's so sweet, I had to get one for myself.
@@MunchPremium Must be toasty for you
@@PyroFTB it is always working well but it's probably because it's over the oculus airlink
If you're on an Index and everything looks blurry, you're not wearing it right
The immersion gained from actually stepping into and existing in the game world makes up for the lack of graphical complexity in current vr titles. A vr game relies less on the visual complexity of a given scene and uses the interactivity of existing in that 3D space to sell the realism. This is why I can play a game like quake 1 or Half life 1 or even the original Doom with it's sprite based NPC's and weapon models in vr and still be incredibly immersed despite the graphics in those games being simplistic and outdated.
Using the the joycons or whatever to walk around in game really takes me out of it tbh
@@hahathatisfunnybro Joycons? joycons.. ? joycons... are you a nintendo bot? I think what you mean to say is you got motion sick ;)
When I found that these games had ports even on quest 2 I had a good many hours of happiness with my childhood fantasies being fulfilled! I always wanted to play doom and quake in vr. Oh, there is also quake 2 and return to castle wolfenstein available to play as well ;) Good fun to be had!
@@Chriserino you know what i mean, the motion controllers with buttons and analog sticks? I dont like that im confound to the actual room im in in reality and cant just walk forward to move my character i have to either point at the ground and magically teleport there or push an analog stick to move
@@Chriserino obviously its better than a tv screan and a regular controller but im gonna stuck to that until its advanced enough for my ridiculously unreasonably high standards of immersion
You really don’t have to wait. If you’re comfortable spending $300, just get a Quest 2. I really don’t notice that VR looks way worse than normal games. Generally the immersion and gameplay takes over way more than needing perfect clarity
Problem is that there are no existing triple A titles
@@Tommah1000 well you have alyx, but beside that game I can't think of any others
@@saret4647 if you're playing Alyx then that's not $300 anymore.
War Thunder (of all things) and No Man's Sky are extremely beautiful in VR. DCS and Il-2 too, albeit the detail is mostly relegated to the cockpits.
@@RandomPerson13 I just got a Quest 2 (and cable), and never really got into NMS, but I am excited to try it again in VR.
War Thunder somehow doesn’t work in VR on my PC, no idea why
For some reason every time I open No Mans Sky in VR, everything looks extremely low res. I'm not sure why, I'm running it on the HTC Vive Cosmos and a decently powerful PC (And my other VR games look fantastic) but whenever I open No Mans Sky it looks pretty bad. The intro sequence where the stars go flying by stutters a lot, and when I spawn on the planet both the animals and the creatures kinda just get their details smoothed over.
I'm sure it's because I've set something up wrong, do you guys know how I might fix it? I haven't really seen many other people with this issue so it's definitely not the game.
Yes. And I also spend HOURS in EmuVR, loving every second of it
It's really weird, Because my first demo vr experience at a convention seemed so advanced and detailed. But now looking at the graphics of modern vr games way beyond my first experience, and comparing with my first experience, I feel like I was seeing more detail in my own brain than was actually there at the time (kinda like when playing old original Nintendo games in the 90s). That or I somehow teleported to a dimension where VR wasn't as advanced yet. XD
Some things I will consider.
1. DLSS has had added VR Support (DLSS is pretty much black Magic for Game Upscaling, it's pretty nutty, imagine 1080p being upscaled to 4k and it looking better than Native 4k in some scenarios and being more or less indistinguishable in most others with the performance like it was running at 1080p still), we just have to wait for more games to add DLSS VR Support.
2. I do sort of feel another one of the best looking VR Games is Psychonauts in the Rhombus of Ruin, as it does sort of look closer to Psychonauts 2 imho? But that's just me. Although they likely achive that fidelity by limiting player movement and interaction as it's a normal controller sit-down VR Game.
But yeah, I do say we have more of the technology rendering wise to let higher-fidelity VR games come into existence and actually run at an acceptable frame rate, it's just the software tech is so new that not many high-profile games using it have come out yet. The only limitation now is the PPD resolution getting to that 60 PPD point.
Although the Oculus Quest 2 running ARM Mobile hardware does make it a more complicated affair as it's the new entry point (and most popular headset), due to use it's price and being a all in one solution rather than a dedicated headset like the Index, especially as you can hook it to a PC and use it's features like it were a normal headset now, only for $200-$300.
So a lot of games likely will be held back until Facebook likely teams up with NVIDIA or AMD for the next Oculus Quest's SoC in order to use something like FSR or DLSS in games running on the headset itself (As FSR would be most optimized for AMD GPUs, and DLSS only runs on Turing or newer archetecure NVIDIA GPUs, and both are in the ARM SoC Space now).
FSR isn't "most optimized" for AMD GPUs, nor does Facebook need to team up with AMD to support FSR, as FSR is free software (MIT license). However I'm doubtful about its performance on mobile hardware, as it involves quite complicated algorithms.
@@alex15095 Well AMD themselves said that it may be able to run on NVIDIA GPUs, NVIDIA just needs to Optimize it.
So yes, FSR is most optimized on AMD GPUs because AMD Themselves made it and whenever FSR gets a "Feature Update" from AMD Themsvles, it will likely work best on AMD Cards.
@@Alovon FSR in VR is actually already a thing and has proven to improve performance nearly 2x, settings dependent of course. Your point about optimization is noted, but I haven't seen a comparison that shows it works better on AMD cards (might exist, I just haven't seen it personally), though it is safe to assume that it might to a degree.
@@BCBtheBeastlyBeast yeah, is primarily boils down to how much effort Oculus would want to put into optimizing FSR if they go that route rather than DLSS.
Do they want to be pretty much on their own with whoever supplies the GPU for the SoC they use (Qualcomm for the case of a Snapdragon SoC, Mediatek for Mediatek, or ARM Themselves in some GPU configs), or would they want to go the Samsung Route and team up with AMD who has far better drivers than most other GPUs (Even if they may be not as stable as NVIDIA'S, they are far better than Intel's on the PC Desktop end). And would get effective guarenteed optimization for FSR.
Side note: I do sort of think AMD might try to leverage FSR and their superior drivers heavily in their lower end APU/SoCs to make them Perform far better than their contemporaries at that segment.
(Although the NVIDIA T239 likely would beat the Samsung+AMD Exynos by a decent Margin considering DLSS frees up more GPU headroom than FSR, the gap widening even further if the T239 has RT Cores which would likely curbstomp the RT Accelerators in the AMD Exynos, and might actually be usable for accelrating RT on ARM)
I've been playing RDR2 in VR with DLSS and it makes a big difference in performance. With TAA I played at 2700 x 2700. With DLSS I can play at 3510 x 3510 and get a much clearer image with similar FPS. AI super sampling and foveated rendering are the future of VR.
"Most games looks like they could run on mobile phones"
Quest and Quest 2: 👀
Hey, depending on how exactly you're using your headset, some of those problems might not be limits of VR itself, but a setting you need to change. For example- Steam will sometimes limit VR apps to half resolution, even if you could run it anyway, which you can change in SteamVR settings. Additionally, if you're using a wired connection, some cords will force the computer to heavily compress images (USB 2.0 vs 3.0) to avoid latency. The same is true if you're using the headset wirelessly, you might need to increase the bitrate in a settings menu somewhere.
I'm in my own holodeck right now so I'd say the graphics are pretty good, story's bad but looks realistic enough.
EmuVR is freaking awesome
this really isn't a good or faithful representation of
a) how difficult it is to get a Valve Index (you got unlucky, don't scare people away if they want one with the whole "I was on the phone with customer support etc.)
b) how "bad" or "good" VR games look through the Valve Index (you stated you had one at the beginning of the video, so I assume you mean that that specific headset has all the issues you mentioned, and as someone who has spent well over 2k hours in a Valve Index since December, the effects from screen door or "bluryness" are not as big as you say... also, I run thing with a 1660 Super and my games run just fine... I think you may have some settings wrong on your end and possibly your render resolution set below 100%)
c) the quality of VR Games, especially Half Life Alyx
with VR, in my opinion at least, the emersion added by being VR is way more important than the resolution of screen door effect (especially as the Index's screen door is almost not noticeable until you are actively looking for it). VR has allowed me to make friends during the pandemic and has allowed me to connect with people that are on the other side of the world in a way that I would need a plane ticket to do otherwise. VR is amazing and "waiting" is why the tech isn't as good as it could be... the more demand for it, the better the tech will get. "waiting" isn't exactly a good method when the industry needs demand in order to improve.
Because they didn't let me just make the graphics for them
I know how to use Blender so you could say I'm _preeeeeeeeetty_ qualified :sunglasses_emoji:
?
@@rlvideosgunner Blender is a 3d modelling program
I'm joking by saying VR games don't look as good as regular PC games because they didn't have me doing it, so I'm acting like I'm being arrogant and way overestimate my ability
I know how to use blender too, you put food in it and turn it on and it becomes a juicy juice juice
@@ChessedGamon nintendo hire this man
@@ChessedGamon oh ok
Half-Life Alyx looks amazing!
Yeah I'm not sure where he got the idea half life Alyx just looks alright. Like if I can pick up a dirty, decayed newspaper off the ground and read the individual articles on it without any difficulty. .. That's incredible.
@@sharksareneat8723 Oh I did that too! But the lighting, the textures, the resolution, everything is freaking amazing. But I guess his thing is just to be blasé all the time about everything.
@@sharksareneat8723 yeah idk what this guys on
Gonna be honest, I dont think you had enough time or hardware to experience VR. I kinda dislike this whole thing about "why does vr look bad". It looks bad because it requires MUCH more system resources to run vr games if they want to look nice. Nothing else about that. The whole "blurry" thing is more than likely because you fog up your lenses so much. You claim to have an Index but how much you wanna bet my CV1 experience is more "clear" than your "Index's"
Not the greatest video to argue against VR graphics, especially if you have witnessed HL:alyx. HL:Alyx was absolutely awesome graphically, going overboard with graphical detail with RTX or other good flat game graphics on VR is going to be unnecesary. HL:Alyx felt photorealistic, and its style isnt even photorealistic, they have blended togheter graphics and aesthetics really well and just enough for you to feel lived in the game.
We're on the verge of "Real" VR. Eyetracking combined with foviated rendering, tech like FSR and DLSS should enable a true-to-life image for anyone.
It'll take an extra 2-5 years to get affordable headsets with that probably but we're getting there.
I love VR, I don't see the screen door anymore but I don't recommend anything but getting a good secondhand deal or just waiting.
RT and foviated rendering on their own are gonna change the game in 5 years, no point in investing big now for the small guy.
Good video!
PSVR 2 and Index 2 are coming next year and both will have foveated rendering. PSVR 2 will in all likelihood be the more affordable option, and though it too early to really say, I think it's safe to say it will at least be close to affordable! Exciting stuff!
@@BCBtheBeastlyBeast the index 2 ist just rumors at the moment. What specification it has or even when it will be revealed is not known.
@@S41t4r4 Patents more than rumors, but yeah. It's pretty safe to assume it will have eye tracking and foveated rendering.
Thank God finally someone metions foveated rendering and dlss. We are further down the line than most people would think. If give it a couple more years then well have a true to life image!
true, he doesn't mention that those 60 pixels/degree resolution is only needed for a tiny area of the human eye. current headsets waste lots of ressources by rendering the entire FOV in the same resolution.
While alot of this is "fact" your video makes these issues seem worse than it actually is, especially for those who have not used VR. The screen door effect on the Index is not bad like you make it seem, reading text is not hard on it either. Running games on my Index is not as hard for my PC to run as you make it sound like. You should also mention average specs of a PC to run VR.
Its just, the gfx on current VR headsets are not near as bad as your video makes it out to be. For the record, I also own a Index and had a Vive previously.
I feel like this is an early stage for VR. This is like PS2 era for VR. I can't wait when we have VR headsets with 60 PPD and 200+ FOV with eye tracking, neural sensors and 360 degree treadmills.
"Games seem really blurry"
... is nobody gonna tell him about prescription lenses?
That's one of my biggest doubts when the topic of VR head-sets comes along. I do use lenses for my myopict eyes, and I don't think I could use them with a VR headset on. If I take them out before putting the VR headset on, would I see the same blurry image?
@@daniel_rossy_explica ! NOW WITH 2X THE BLURRY!
@@daniel_rossy_explica Yes. For the most part, looking at things in VR is the same as looking at them in real life. For example, If you're near sighted in real life, you'll also be near sighted in VR.
@@daniel_rossy_explica yes, it will be very blurry. i am very nearsighted myself (myopia, just like you), and if i dont wear my glasses in the headset its just as blurry as when i dont have the headset on and take the glasses off. you will need t oeither get a spacer for the glasses, which the quest 2 comes with, or gett prescription lenses
@@p3t3r_waffles I didn't know that spacers were an option. I will take that into consideration when buying a set.
Developers are not that good at implimenting VR yet. If you look at for example Half-Life Alyx, it looks pretty fucking good even on low specs machines. It's all about optimization, and VR needs more than pancake games.
Honestly I think a lot about the Vr and graphics is more so how you adjust it and when you get use to it
I think if you’re having problems with blurriness, you should try adjusting the position of the headset using the strap and the IPD. It also depends on the hardware you run. If you don’t have your settings maxed out at 90 FPS you’ll have more problems with visual fidelity. The new HTC headsets solve a lot of the problems you talk about. I’ve also tried the quest 1 over the quest 2 and it does have more screen door effects, but being honest you lose yourself in the game regardless. The biggest problem is text, but come on the future of this industry is right around the corner.
There is a new development with Dlss specifically for VR where we can upscale the resolution and keep the high refresh rate
DLSS, eye tracking with foveated rendering, asynchronous spacewarp and motion smoothing, varifocal lenses, and micro led displays will likely solve most of these problems within a couple years. Great video
Tyler, I love ya man, your awesome, but are your eyes ok? Is your headset broken or something? My shitty box maps I made in half an hour for half-life: alyx look like something from the ps4, the actual game looks almost real at times (not all the parts and it is stylized), and I am not the only person with that impression. I’m not really angry or anything I’m mostly just confused? I’m really not sure where you’re coming from here
Blurry on a Index? My RiftS looks sweet,
IPD and distance matters.
I haven't had this issue. Running no man's sky on VR vs my monitor it looks exactly the same. Though the valve index does have a pretty low resolution might be your problem.
Kid: Mom I want Dunkey videos!
Mom: We already have Dunkey videos at home
The Videos: Whimsu
I realize this is two weeks late but Just wanted to add one thing to your evaluation. Flat screen games are doing a number of things to improve FPS that are immersion breaking in VR. Using assets that are billboard flat but are rendered to look 3d due to perspective. I urge you to play non-modded Skyrim VR. It is a master class in these techniques that gain performance and look fine on flat screen but fail horribly in VR. The billboard grass that turns with the player, cobble stone paths that are completely flat and cave walls with drawn on depth are just a few things that stand out. VR will need to demonstrate volume to a much farther distance and that costs a lot of GPU cycles.
OH YEAH BABY THATS WHAT IVE BEEN WAITING FOR
I started VR with the Vive Pro then eventually bought an Index. It took me quite a while to get used to the screen door effect, but after using VR since mid 2018, I have trained myself not to notice it anymore. The motion sickness thing is easy enough to train as well. While yes, 90 FPS or higher is preferable, I can go as low as 45 FPS in some unoptimized games like VRChat and still be fine.
I guess I’m lucky, I’ve never noticed the screen door effect even on devices like the PSVR, and even playing heavily modded VR Minecraft and getting 20 FPS I never got sick. Now that I think about it, I’ve never been motion sick in VR. Guess my brain is just wired for virtual reality.
More than anything, i just want the games in headset to be as vibrant as they show on the monitor view. Headsets are just so dim at the moment.
If headsets tracked your eyes, they could render whatever your eye is seeing at max resolution and just blur the rest.
But then we have to optimize eye tracking to a point, where it wouldn't allow for any black spaces to be viewable.
@@verbugterherrderdunkelheit6086 super good eye tracking wouldnt be necessary for a massive performance boost. Even with huge margins, performance would be way higher.
Apparently it's a thing already in the works, called foveated rendering.
Yep, it's called foveated rendering.
Worryingly, John Carmack is skeptical if it will be accomplished anytime soon, which means there are some issues.
@@doublinx2 Intersting. Thanks!
I was wondering instead of rendering for each eye, they render 1 area wider by the edges and do the math for the visual overlap and whatnot? So they would still have 2 different cameras but the whole area process wise, works like a monitor but cloned and tweaked to fit each eye?
Yeah the Index is one of the best if not the best headsets, but the screen door effect is still there a little. Surprisingly, I don't notice it on the Quest 2.
"Magical rendering technique changes everything"
Wonder how DLSS + ASW + VRS would scale up
I'll probably wait until the next gen standalones come out, like the quest 3 or equivalent, not only will it be an improvement over current gen (and hopefully for the same price) but it'll also give me time to save up, since most of the money I earn is being sucked off by things I don't care for but still need to feed.
@Boogerbong Bootycplap 420
In my experience with the Quest 2 (standalone), the lower visual quality often slips right by when I'm fully into a game, the only time it actively bothers me is when I'm trying to read certain text, or trying to look at something very closely in front of my face. Other than that, yeah if you take the time to analyze what you're seeing it looks like booboo, but during serious gameplay? Not even noticeable, except in severe circumstances.
It does become more apparent the longer you spend time in VR though, at first you're so swept away by the magic of it all you don't even realize how god awful the stock Quest 2 feels to wear, let alone that the graphics look like a ps2 game.
Even still, I've had plenty of times where I've been genuinely surprised at how great things look in some games, someone else in the comments said devs find ways to work around the graphical limitations and that is absolutely true, a lot of devs go for a minimalist look that paradoxically makes things look _great_ when done correctly.
So, for now, I'm relatively satisfied with the visuals in VR. It's just like the consoles of the 90's, VR is just now starting to find its footing and gain traction, still needs time to mature!
yeah but with something like the g2 inside the headset it is clearer than my monitor
@@jeff-hd9og Sure, for like $250 more and without standalone functionality. That's the reason the quest is straight, extremely reasonable price and doesn't require anything external for a full experience
"Unless some magical new rendering technique is found"
Unreal engine 5: May I introduce myself?
Maybe I’m lucky but I don’t notice games being blurry on my index
The problem of "waiting" more time before getting one" is that it makes producers think we're not interested and they'd drop (or are already dropping) development. I'm a happy Samsung Odyssey owner and I'm all for next gen visors able to provide 60px/°, even if it's gonna require a PC 10 times faster than what current High-End ones are able to do, but it's not gonna happen if companies see people not buying current stuff at all. It's like 3D graphics in the 90s. 2D games were usually looking much better (and many still do today), but 3D games came to success because it was new. People would see that it looks cool, and wanted to have it home themselves.
The main issue for VR is that you have no idea how it looks like until you try it. And no, not PSVR at the store, with the lowest resolution in the market. Anyone who I talk about VR to always tell me "yeah, I tried PSVR at the store and it looked like shit, I'm never gonna buy a visor". Well, no surprise. Try a Valve index. An Odyssey. A G2. They are not perfect, but gives an idea of what VR is and what it can become in the future. The ones who tried at my house had much more fun. A couple ones changed their mind and decided to get one, especially for racing simulators.
Some rendering techniques are also unavailable in VR, such as Screen-Space reflections. This makes games look worse or forces some design tricks to hide reflections. Also, animation and texture imperfections are much more noticeable up close in vr. Also, mobile vr is more profitable niche now so developers are trying to make games simpler.
7:44 waiting doesnt realy change or help because if everyone just waited nothing would change because it would be percieved as "no one is interested in vr so let's stop working on it" by the market and vr would pretty much die out.
There is no perfect thing from the start and for what it is right now and how far it has come, i think vr is worth it!
Instead of "wait" my suggestion is to try it out at a friends house or a local games convention (as soon as those open up again) and think for yourself if you like it! ^^
"Everything's so blurry" - Wes Scatlin
He probably doesn't have his DPI set properly
there are some visualy impressive vr games, hinge vr, lone echo (and the upcoming sequel), asgards wrath. and you can always mod the crap out of skyrim vr
ive only used the rift s and the samsung oddysey, im interested in the index and the 8k when that gets stable, but ive never experienced screendoor effect. my problem has always been my massive nose pushing the bottoms of the screens out, never being able to get my eyes centered and the overall weight of the headset on my neck and the wires getting tangled. but i only experience blurriness on text up close.
Atleast for me on my vive cosmos (prob the worst headset you can get), the screen door effect is barely noticable, by that i mean i have to stare at a plain color surface for 2 seconds to notice the gaps, kinda like i don't notice my nose
I haves some hope for upscaling techniques which have already been able to make more games playable at the full resolution of my Reverb G2
The depth information from stereoscopic visuals is significant. Just saying VR looks worse isn't fair because by leaving this out, it completely ignores what VR is for.
I can’t see flatscreen shooters the same way after playing games like Pavlov and Onward. It feels like I’m wearing an eyepatch without the 3D. Apparently when you aim with both eyes open you can see through your gun.
Like if you’re aiming with your right eye through the sights, your left eye is a little offset and you can see the area that would be blocked by your gun if you closed your left eye. Both images are combined by your brain and the gun becomes almost transparent. This makes it way easier to track targets and see movement in your peripheral vision.
Eye tracking with foveated rendering will help this a lot, we will go from having to render much more pixels than other platforms to much less, only having to render a small amount of the screen at max res
I think you're making some of these issues seem bigger than they are
Eye tracking will unlock a lot of performance. You may need a lot of pixels in your screen but you can optimise a lot of you only render what the user is directly looking at
The Varjo Aero has retinal level clarity and no screen door effect. Blurriness can be eliminated through ipd adjustment and headset repositioning. The hardware industry is farther along than he makes it out to be, especially considering he uses some pretty old headsets like the psvr in his examples.
I've never noticed any blur on my headset and it's 4 years old. If I had to guess, you probably have your ipd wrong or if you have a glasses I'd recommend investing in vr prescription lenses.
Anyone knows the name of the retro music piece played at the end? I really liked it!
I found this video right after i recieve my VR pakage,now i feel like got scammed
I don’t even notice the screen door effect on my rift s, probably cause I’m having too much fun being a suicidal bomber in Pavlov TTT
honestly I would guess that very few VR headsets have ALL of these problems. The PSVR doesn't really have the screen door effect, for example (although it is pretty blurry.) And my HP Windows Mixed reality headset doesn't have screendoor, and is also VERY clear if you look straight forward (although peripheral vision/the sides of the lenses are very blurry).
Point is, these problems vary wildly from headset to headset, and in my opinion really aren't something to worry about. VR is fun and games are largely designed to get around these issues.
VR graphics really depends on your hardware and headset, I’m running the Vive Pro 2 with a 3070 and things are insanely clear, that headset makes games look beautiful, even more so than the index resolution wise
yeah i got a reverb g2 and a 1080 ti and it looks super clear
You can drink alcohol until you dont see the screendoor tho, thats like upgrading the screen.
Another thing to consider is that more devs may feel compelled to make a Quest 2 version of their game that runs natively, and whilst the Q2 is impressive compared to the Q1, it is still far from PC level performance.
I also think that as a result of both shortages, Nvidia and AMD kinda being greedy and lazy when it comes to their more recent GPUs (still targeting 1080p for midrange cards whilst also charging more than their older cards, even when you account for inflation and that doesn't even consider the fact that you ain't going to find sold at MSRP) has sorta resulted in a stagnation in performance of sorts for a majority of people's gaming PC's.
There's also like you said, the fact that the majority of AAA developers making these games are simply not interested in making VR games, and of the all handful that do, they're most likely going to try targeting the mobile headsets like the Quest 2, and most of these AAA VR games have taken a long time to make, with development having starting before the new generation of consoles like the Xbox Series X and PS5 were even announced.
A way for the fov part s way to get more is to put it closer because it doesn't have to be bigger but better screens needs to have more pixels tho
Just increase pixel density / multisampling + anti-alliasing, and your picture in VR will look much better.
You want to kill computers Huh? You psyko.
"Just"
@@CaptainFrankay Tyler's rig is better than most from what I understand
@@CaptainFrankay Yes, it is literally just one function already in every single existing game, and one extra function.
@@hawkevick9184 Assetto Corsa running at 4x anti-alliasing and 1.3 pixel density and the picture looks amazing. Oculus Rift S headset.
Can u make video like the acid trip ones I loved it
I was surprised you brought up "magical rendering technique"s and proceeded to not mention AI super-resolution like DLSS. There's also a technique for VR rendering called "Single Pass Stereo" which saves a lot of processing for VR geometry. Combined with the fact that rendering isn't the only process that affects framerate (all the game logic and simulation doesn't need to be done twice for VR) VR should be running a lot better than at half framerate.
Your thumbnail image had red glow at the bottom that makes it looks like the red bar indicating we've already watched the video. Took me days to notice it was a new one... might want to change that to keep your views up!
"Wait. Just wait"
This is what I do with all tech. Yeah, I might be a bit behind, but I dont have to deal with the "growing pains".
Still haven't gamed on VR. I did almost shit myself, when trying to help my neighbor figure it out. Popped the headset on, and was randomly floating above the Golden Gate. Im terrified of heights. He had no idea.
I'm not a programmer or anything like that but would it make more sense for the computer to render the full single image for both eyes, then split it, adjust and remove the unnecessary info that doesn't need to be displayed per each eye?
That would make the game look flat and 2D, and it would be extremely sickening. It might be possible to have a 3-step rendering process where relatively close objects are rendered separately per-eye, and very far distant objects are only rendered once, but that might only lead to performance improvements in large open worlds.
I bought a vr for sim racing I sold my monitor and bought a quest 2.In dirt rally I got 25fps and a blurry and pixelated image in assetto corsa too.Then I bought a big 55inch tv which is 4k.i run bought of those games at 60 fps with some setting tweeks
Keep in mind pixels glow irl so the screen door effect isnt as visual when its on your head and it can kinda fill in the gaps
VR games look bad? Never play Asgaurds Wrath,StormLands,HalfLife Alyx,BoneWorks,Medal of Honor?
The Quest 2 is hands down the best way to get into VR. 300 dollary-doos and you're in
Y’all clearly haven’t experienced VR Minecraft whith shaders… i almost cried at the sunset when I pet my dog and realized it was better than any other way to experience a game
You literally cannot see the pixels on the quest 2 unless you look at stuff far away really hard atleast for me otherwise it’s so fucking clear
Your arguments are on point, but don't wait, get amongst it and enjoy your time. You can be immersed without the latest graphics.
Oh hey, I've seen my comment on this video, which means I've watched this video before! But now that watching this video again, well, this video got quite some wrong stuffs. Firstly, you can't calculate PPD from just the FOV and the resolution, because a portion of the FOV is overlapped on both eyes. Old headsets generally would just have both eye's vision pratically overlapped completely, meaning that you can just divide the single eye horizontal resolution by the FOV and that's the lower bound of the headset's PPD. (Which means the actual PPD of PSVR and Quest 2 is about half of the calculated result in the video.) On newer wide FOV headsets though, the overlap percentage is much lower, which means that only the center of vision looks 3D, just like how real human eyes work. Those can't be calculated easily, but for example, Pimax 8KX has a FOV of about 25, the Arpara headset can go to 30 (but I don't recommend buying it), and a Varjo headset can reach 60 in the center of the vision, meaning that it's actually human eye resolution, but it's also ridiculously expensive.
And, headset PPD isn't the only thing that mattered, though. Because if you render the scene without anti-aliasing, the scene will look bad because the information density isn't there. Doubling the render resolution would still make sense, and then the headset PPD wouldn't matter as much because we've long been getting 20 PPD for cheap, with 25 to 30 not far to reach. Having 4.9 or 0.8 or 20/40 vision in VR really isn't that bad.
Here we are two years later, and it still looks poor. At best VR is sharp cartoons on Quest 3, and otherwise heavy pixelation on VR2. But nothing captures my interest even at the end of 2023. I expect it will be 2 or 3 more years before it gets photo-realistic.
The screen door effect wasn't too bad on my occulus rift. But it is hard to read text because your screen can't dialate like your eyes can irl when an image gets closer
The oculus rift had a pretty horrible screen door effect due to the relatively low resolution and the fact that it was an oled display. Which has a lot of space in between the pixels. LCD displays have bigger pixels that are closer to each other because of that, so even if the resolution is the same, less screen door effect. The downside with LCD is horrible black levels...
not sure you can use a PSVR as an example in 2021... would be like saying consoles are rubbish because the PS 1 is slower than a 3080 RTX
anyone know what the game is at 2:01 with the llama?
VR tech is still pretty new, i'd say in about 10 years VR is going to be massively improved and games are going to look realistic and headsets will be vastly improved from today.
Also, your depiction of the screen door effect at 5:13 is massively exaggerated, this on most headsets is something that you only really see if you focus on it
You say everything is blurry, have you correctly set your IPD?
The pixel density of the Labo headset... would be a statistic, all right.
I have been on the VR train since 2016 with the Rift CV1, Quest 1, Rift S and now HP Reverb G2. Some things you just can't go back to 2d with, like flying and racing games. It's basically VR or nothing for me in those genres. But he's right about the costs, it will always look worse on an individual image level simply due to the huge requirements of having to display everything twice and often at a higher refresh rate. I am happy to say that with the newest headsets, like the Reverb G2, the screen door effect and poor readability of text is generally gone. It's still not as sharp as my 1440p screen, but it's at least as clear as 1080p. The Rift and Rift S were pretty bad for reading though. No question you were giving up a lot of graphical fidelity to get it into VR. Was worth it then, and definitely worth it now. Just have to know what you're getting into is all.
I honestly forget the screen door effect after a few minutes. I got a fucking oculus rift cv1 back in the summer of 2020 because It was a steal at the time. I got it for 130$ and even though the resolution is low, and I only have 180 degrees of tracking, it's still fun af. Try vrchat or pavlov sometime, social experiences are flipping epic in vr
Holy cow, rendering VR takes a lot of processing power
I've read that DLSS can double performance in some cases. Might be a good idea to look into, if anyone wants to try running some more demanding games. No man's sky is one game that supports this out of the box.
More like 40%
Unrelated to most of this video but when using my oculus quest 2, i need my glasses to play it, taking my glasses off makes things look blurry, which is pretty cool.
The Pico4 is also at 41.16 PPD but with a 105 FOV on both horisontal and vertical and 2160 res.
that unit is actually reaching a level where the individuel pixels.. is minor.. also with its 1193 PPI
To me, the biggest thing of VR is actually Gravity Sketch. It runs great even on my Pimax 8K X, so that's fine, I guess. It's not like I can expect much more since most other games can't go past 45fps at 2/3 resolution on this headset (I use an RTX 2070S to drive the headset).
Why not VR games that are 120 pixels per second
I'm so excited, I have 2 3080 ti's and I am still building the rest of the rig, and I am going to get the new valve index 2, ima have the best graphics in the world. Only bad thing is I got to figure out a way to have one gpu target one eye and another eye. But the index 2 will have live focus, so that will improve quality. Once I get a way to combine those two, I will have the best graphics known to man. Just got to wait for the index 2.
get a reverb g2 bro, it works and looks great, the tracking isnt great but it isnt bad by any means
@@jeff-hd9og yeah, it's an idea, but I might as well wait for the new headset. Best of the best for the nest of the best ya know?
Screen door effect has more to do with the distance between pixels than resolution(the amount of pixels).
What happend with things like labor or google VR where you have a screen with cardboard?
This video was really interesting, I will wait for the rest of the serie. Keep it up!
Those devices used phones as their screens, but they died out because they weren't very good. Phone screens don't have nearly as good of resolution as proper VR headsets nor the high framerates, so they caused a lot of blurriness and motion sickness.
Anything older than the Quest2 is old and unacceptable to spend money on in my opinion.
I've actually tried to explain this issue to numerous groups of gamers but they don't seem to grasp it, but for the sake of this guy here I HAVE to try.
I've spent more time in vr than any sane person should,and I've always obsessed about graphical quality since the days before 3d acceleration. I'm the sort of obsessed lunatic that has gigabytes of bmp screenshots saved just for the sake of graphical settings comparisons.
That being said, if you are using an index and it looks blurry,you've done something wrong.
Tweaking graphical settings for vr games is ALOT different than flatscreen, and though it may sound condescending you should really check to see you have the headset on correctly. If you have the Halo adjusted wrong it can cause the lenses to be angled slightly up or down instead of your eyes looking at the lenses straight on,causing it to look blurry and also increases barrel distortion.
It makes all the difference in the world if you measure your IPD. If you don't know it, there are ways to figure out easily on Google.
Now onto software side of things:
If your using an index with any nvidia card (or amd equivilent) that's lower than a X7XX card (like rtx 2060 and lower) vr is gonna be a terrible experience overall. It doesn't have the raw power and bandwidth needed to push a headset like the index properly. In fact, on my i9 10900kf with rtx 3080, I STILL want more power so that I can run at higher refresh rates. Currently I stick to 80hz usually becuase the jump to 90s isn't that noticable,and it allows more power to super sampling.
Lastly, the most important aspect is super sampling. Unlike flatscreen displays, you aren't gonna be rendering games in native resolution....ever. unless something is HORRIBLY wrong. On my setup, steam automatically sets my rendering resolution to something around 2468x2984 per eye (so in theory it's much higher resolution than a standard 4k display)
Then you got each games specific settings.
Alot of games have a shitty implementation of antialiasing and if you launch a game and it looks blurry, that's the first thing I'd check. I usually disable antialiasing (especially if it's TAA, it's particularly awful and extremely costly).
Try something like Pavlov vr and if you have it setup right, it should look crystal clear and able to see a person from several football fields away with ease.
I got over a thousand hours of time logged on that game alone, so I can safely say I know what I'm talking about. I'd be glad to help out if ya have any questions
Ive got a 2060 and I've never really had much of a problem with lag. I can run half life alyx at 72 fps 99% of the time. Since I have a quest 1, 72 frames is all I really need, and tbh, all I think anyone really needs.